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So, it has always bothered me that the Black Templars weren't even allies of convenience with Sisters of Battle. Nope, desperate allies. I asked why that was and got this answer pretty much "Black Templars fight an eternal crusade for the Emperor, they know he isn't a god, he is a man, likened to their father, whose last standing order WAS TO CRUSADE! So the Templars Crusade, ever trying to be worthy for the Emperor. Sisters on the otherhand, are a member of the Ecclesiarchy, who the Black Templars dont even let inspect or deal with them (for their non-codex following, and their non-high lords of terra or ecclesiarchy following) and as members, worship the Emperor as a god. So while both armies are essentially zealots, they fight for VERY DIFFERENT BELIEFS!"

Open the book today to see the fluff changed, now apparently we are all cool with sisters, believe in the Emperor as the one true god, and fight for space religion...so big fluff change there. And STILL we are desperate allies with the sisters (even though the BRAND NEW CODEX says we are cool with them) Why are we like that...because GW said Ally Chart wont change. Period and flat out. Space marines still are buddies with Tau, and Black Templars still dont like Sisters. Complete nonsense.

Oh...also...they redacted Black Templars hating all psykers and witches. Now we only hate ALIEN witches. SERIOUSLY!?! The whole reason the templars didn't like psykers was because the heresy was full of witches that can go crazy and kill everyone at any time...even FRIENDLY ones, thats why we never trusted any psyker and couldnt even ally with them This was a HUGE part of our fluff that was redacted. Disgusting.

Wait, if this is true for the change in hating all psykers/witches then why did they keep the restriction on BT not being able to have Librarians then? Also I thought there was a footnote in the codex saying that the BT used the allies matrix as Space Marines. If what you're saying is true...WOW...GW dun screwed it up big time.

I guess this is what you get when they half-ass incorporating a non-codex chapter into a codex that is based upon codex-chapters....

Actually, the Allies Matrix bit is currently debated in dakka's You Make Da Call section: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/550588.page
There is a note in the Codex about people being supposed to replace any reference to Codex:BT with Codex:SM, which would obviously apply to the matrix as well. However, due to its wording there is a discussion on how exactly it applies.

As for the answers you were given about the Black Templars' beliefs .. I don't know who told you that, but to my knowledge that was never actually said in earlier sources, so this is less of a retcon but more of an addition. GW fluff has mentioned individual Space Marine Chapters having adopted belief in the Emperor as a god, they just never gave specific examples so far, so this is a first-timer. Looking back at how often the words "prayer" and "faith" show up in the Templars' fluff over the years, and to earlier cooperation with the Sororitas (Vinculus Crusade), and their Battle Banner honouring the Ecclesiarchal forces (Age of Apostasy), or the deliberate rescue of religious Imperial relics (Armageddon), it may come to little surprise to finally reveal what has been hinted on for so long.

The bit about not hating psykers/witches seems weird, though. What exactly does the new Codex say there? Or is it perhaps merely a (possibly accidental) omission or change in focus?

Since this is just a fluff piece I will quote it. Pg 52 - Abhor the Witch

:Outsiders mistakently interpret the lack of librarians within the ranks of the Black Templars Chapter, and the fury with which its battle-brothers slay Chaos Sorcerers as an intolerance of all psykers. This could hardly be further from the truth, for the Black Templars hold special reverence for the Astropaths, seeing them as holy disciples who have actually communed with the Emperor. Navigators are similarly honored, for their psychic blessing allows them to see the divine light of the Astronomicon and guide the Black Templars to deliver righteous retribution against the Emperor's enemies"

I am ok with that bit, it explains very easily why we are cool being on ships. Continueing:

"Instead the Black Templars' abhorrence is reserved for deviant alien witches and rogue psykers who embrace the blasphemous Dark Gods.

It goes on some more but...WHY CANT WE TAKE LIBRARIANS THEN! If we only hate aliens and rogues...this REALLY messes some fluff up. Hating all psykers was why we couldn't before...but now it specifically says aliens and rogues. Unless I am missing something else, there really isnt a reason we CANT have librarians other than "you cant"

 Isean wrote:
Since this is just a fluff piece I will quote it. Pg 52 - Abhor the Witch

:Outsiders mistakently interpret the lack of librarians within the ranks of the Black Templars Chapter, and the fury with which its battle-brothers slay Chaos Sorcerers as an intolerance of all psykers. This could hardly be further from the truth, for the Black Templars hold special reverence for the Astropaths, seeing them as holy disciples who have actually communed with the Emperor. Navigators are similarly honored, for their psychic blessing allows them to see the divine light of the Astronomicon and guide the Black Templars to deliver righteous retribution against the Emperor's enemies"

I am ok with that bit, it explains very easily why we are cool being on ships. Continueing:

"Instead the Black Templars' abhorrence is reserved for deviant alien witches and rogue psykers who embrace the blasphemous Dark Gods.

It goes on some more but...WHY CANT WE TAKE LIBRARIANS THEN! If we only hate aliens and rogues...this REALLY messes some fluff up. Hating all psykers was why we couldn't before...but now it specifically says aliens and rogues. Unless I am missing something else, there really isnt a reason we CANT have librarians other than "you cant"

On the next page it goes into this: Basically all Librarians disappeared from the Black Templars some time ago (they give a few possible explanations such as adherence to the edict of Nikea and the ending of the Catelexis Heresy with the massive psychic death scream). The Templars just going along with it saying it's the Emperor's plans, and if he sees fit to bless them with Psykers, they'll accept them.

Most likely what's going on is they've been stuck in a cycle of "get a psyker prospect->can't be properly trained because no existing Librarians->dies due to lack of training"

nobody wrote:
Most likely what's going on is they've been stuck in a cycle of "get a psyker prospect->can't be properly trained because no existing Librarians->dies due to lack of training"

Or they go straight to the part where they save the geneseed and send the psyker to the proper authorities as a gift. What better way to gain a few extra points toward the Inquisition not investigating how many templars there actually are?

Spetulhu wrote:

nobody wrote:
Most likely what's going on is they've been stuck in a cycle of "get a psyker prospect->can't be properly trained because no existing Librarians->dies due to lack of training"

Or they go straight to the part where they save the geneseed and send the psyker to the proper authorities as a gift. What better way to gain a few extra points toward the Inquisition not investigating how many templars there actually are?

That's also a very likely possibility.

 Isean wrote:
"Black Templars fight an eternal crusade for the Emperor, they know he isn't a god, he is a man, likened to their father, whose last standing order WAS TO CRUSADE! So the Templars Crusade, ever trying to be worthy for the Emperor. Sisters on the otherhand, are a member of the Ecclesiarchy, who the Black Templars dont even let inspect or deal with them (for their non-codex following, and their non-high lords of terra or ecclesiarchy following) and as members, worship the Emperor as a god. So while both armies are essentially zealots, they fight for VERY DIFFERENT BELIEFS!"

Open the book today to see the fluff changed, now apparently we are all cool with sisters, believe in the Emperor as the one true god, and fight for space religion...so big fluff change there.

This is not a change. The idea that the BT's are continuing the Emperor's crusade of secularism is one constructed by fans. The idea of the Great Crusade being a militant atheist circle jerk wasn't introduced into the background until 2006, well after the Templar's background had been firmly established. The Imperial Truth, while a really interesting and dynamic element in the HH novels, isn't acknowledged recognized in any of the studio material.
It might not have been EXPLICITLY stated before that they recognize the Emperor's divinity, but as Lynata mentioned it meshes perfectly with the way the studio material has always portrayed them. When the Codex Astartes split them up, Dorn kept his most dour sons, Polux took the most level headed and pragmatic and created the Crimson Fists, while Sigismund took all the zealot nutjobs and formed the Templars.

A cool story to check out if you're interested in the Black Library perspective is The Crimsons Fist by John French.

 Isean wrote:
So, it has always bothered me that the Black Templars weren't even allies of convenience with Sisters of Battle. Nope, desperate allies. I asked why that was and got this answer pretty much "Black Templars fight an eternal crusade for the Emperor, they know he isn't a god, he is a man, likened to their father, whose last standing order WAS TO CRUSADE! So the Templars Crusade, ever trying to be worthy for the Emperor. Sisters on the otherhand, are a member of the Ecclesiarchy, who the Black Templars dont even let inspect or deal with them (for their non-codex following, and their non-high lords of terra or ecclesiarchy following) and as members, worship the Emperor as a god. So while both armies are essentially zealots, they fight for VERY DIFFERENT BELIEFS!"

Open the book today to see the fluff changed, now apparently we are all cool with sisters, believe in the Emperor as the one true god, and fight for space religion...so big fluff change there. And STILL we are desperate allies with the sisters (even though the BRAND NEW CODEX says we are cool with them) Why are we like that...because GW said Ally Chart wont change. Period and flat out. Space marines still are buddies with Tau, and Black Templars still dont like Sisters. Complete nonsense.

Oh...also...they redacted Black Templars hating all psykers and witches. Now we only hate ALIEN witches. SERIOUSLY!?! The whole reason the templars didn't like psykers was because the heresy was full of witches that can go crazy and kill everyone at any time...even FRIENDLY ones, thats why we never trusted any psyker and couldnt even ally with them This was a HUGE part of our fluff that was redacted. Disgusting.

Yes the BT Ally chart is and always has been nonsense - even more so with the new Codex information - As Lynata said - its a source of some debate and many of us hope that GW will errata / FAQ so it actually makes sense.

The relationship between the Sororitas and the Black Templars has never been bad - the only time they have EVER been said to be in conflict was during Vandires reign and since then the BT have worked a number of times with them with no issues - unlike some other Chapters that could be mentioned. I have always taken that the BT were in fact worshipers of the Emperor, unlike most Chapters and the more recent fluff, both Codex and BL definately goes this way - read Helsreach and they are believers in the divinity of the Emperor - full stop. The HH series also seems to be showing the development of the Imperial Faith, which IMO will lead to those Imperial Fists that choose this path becoming the Black Templars.

The Abhor the Witch is a big part of the BT background and it was strange to see them pull back on this.............

Removing the Templar's narrowminded mistrust of all psykers ( except the carriongod and the grey knights ) removes a part of their unique character.
Imo there are too few extremist and, to a certain degree, unlikable chapters in the setting and every step towards turning yet another chapter into generic defenders of humanity 2.0 is a step into the wrong direction.

Looking at the fluff, the Templars were always cool with the Sisters, certainly at an allies of convinience level. There was the Vinculus Crusade and they co-operated in a BL novel about Armageddon (IIRC). With this in mind, it does seem very odd that they're listed as desperate allies on the allies matrix.

As for whether they still are, personally it seems to me that that part of the designer's notes is essentially saying that they would use the C:SM slot on the allies matrix now, but a lot of people disagree. And to them, it probably seems that thry still use their own slot. I suppose all we can do is email GW a lot to encourage an FAQ to clarify the issue.

As for the Templars now stated to be religious, it just makes sense, IMO. They were always full of religious zealotry. It seemed odd for them to be firmly secular at the same time as that.

KingDeath wrote:
Removing the Templar's narrowminded mistrust of all psykers ( except the carriongod and the grey knights ) removes a part of their unique character.
Imo there are too few extremist and, to a certain degree, unlikable chapters in the setting and every step towards turning yet another chapter into generic defenders of humanity 2.0 is a step into the wrong direction.

*sigh*

Exactly the kind of thing I was afraid of by rolling non-codex chapters into Codex: Space Marines, and further reaffirms that what they should have done is two SM books; a codex-adherent and a non-codex adherent one. Oh, well...

 Anfauglir wrote:
what they should have done is two SM books; a codex-adherent and a non-codex adherent one. Oh, well...

Wouldn't a non-adherent codex be a bit all over the place, though? Chapters that don't adhere are going to have all sorts of unique tactical doctrines. If such a codex were to include a significant number or non-aherent Chapters, all sorts of tactics and mindsets would need to be represented. Or so I would think, anyway.

Spetulhu wrote:

nobody wrote:
Most likely what's going on is they've been stuck in a cycle of "get a psyker prospect->can't be properly trained because no existing Librarians->dies due to lack of training"

Or they go straight to the part where they save the geneseed and send the psyker to the proper authorities as a gift. What better way to gain a few extra points toward the Inquisition not investigating how many templars there actually are?

The Inquisition was interested in codex : Armageddon BT and codex : Black Templar BT, why would they care for codex : vanilla templars? They got 10 companies now and 10 black swords......

Oakenshield wrote:
This is not a change.

disagree. C: Armageddon + C: BT

Oakenshield wrote:
The idea that the BT's are continuing the Emperor's crusade of secularism is one constructed by fans.
It might not have been EXPLICITLY stated before that they recognize the Emperor's divinity, it meshes perfectly with the way the studio material has always portrayed them.

Go quote one of the 2 sources I have pointed at where the Emperor is called God-emperor or said to be divine.
Am waiting as long as it will take you.

Mr Morden wrote:

The Abhor the Witch is a big part of the BT background and it was strange to see them pull back on this.............

It is hidden in the army list now, BT abhor the witch only when we build an army...

The Black Templars player base is fairly amusing. One half seems to be angry that the Black Templars no longer hate all psykers. And the other half seems bitter that they can't have Librarians.

The codex does though, explicitly say that for rules purposes, all previous references to Codex: Black Templars now refer to Codex: Space Marines. This would include the allies chart, as the Allies chart explicity says find the for for the codex of your primary detachment. Welcome your new Tau and Ork friends!

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The Black Templars player base is fairly amusing. One half seems to be angry that the Black Templars no longer hate all psykers. And the other half seems bitter that they can't have Librarians.

The codex does though, explicitly say that for rules purposes, all previous references to Codex: Black Templars now refer to Codex: Space Marines. This would include the allies chart, as the Allies chart explicity says find the for for the codex of your primary detachment. Welcome your new Tau and Ork friends!

Lot of debate about that - see above and other thread - I want the Ally Matrix to actually make sense but the implicaiton is that the error ridden previous one still holds true for BT :(

1hadhq wrote:They got 10 companies now and 10 black swords......

Is this explicitly stated in the Codex, or is this just something that people are making up due to an assumption that any army in C:SM would be structured like the Ultras?
BTs were already in C:SM during 3rd Edition and it changed little about them being "special".

1hadhq wrote:

Oakenshield wrote:The idea that the BT's are continuing the Emperor's crusade of secularism is one constructed by fans.
It might not have been EXPLICITLY stated before that they recognize the Emperor's divinity, it meshes perfectly with the way the studio material has always portrayed them.

Go quote one of the 2 sources I have pointed at where the Emperor is called God-emperor or said to be divine.
Am waiting as long as it will take you.

You're kinda missing his point.

It is you who needs to quote a source where the BT's are explicitly stated to not be religious. Because otherwise it is indeed just "an idea constructed by fans" ... just like he said.

re Black Swords

Its not stated -

the previous Codex said every Crusade nominally has one but its every fighting company. In fact the codex said that the "Black Sword" is just whats its known as - it does not have to be a sword.

The new Codex now says: There are 10 sacred Black Swords and that a single sword accompanies each Crusade.....its not per company but should be one per Crusade.....

What would "make sense"? Doesn't this really give you guys what you wanted? The ability to make your Catholic Black Templars friends with your Protestant Sisters allies?

But there's no implication. I just quoted you the rules. For all rules purposes, previous references to C:BT now instead refer to C:SM6E with Black Templars Chapter Tactics. The rules for allies in BRB6E say "Find the row for the codex of your primary detachment".

Anyone debating otherwise is wrong.

Besides, the Black Templars have been ridden with hypocrisy for years. "Abhor the witch, unless we need to talk across the galaxy, or fly places in the Warp. Those guys promised they feel bad about it."

That's grimdark for you. A Chapter full of religious nutballs who say one thing and do another? Seems about right. After all, that never happens in real life. The Black Templars are a bunch of nutters who wander around the galaxy breaking all the rules. Before battles, they start speaking in tongues like some Southern Baptist revival, and the guy who flips out the best gets a suit of fancy armor and a big sword.

At least now you have artillery, and heavy weapons support, and reconnaissance.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
What would "make sense"? Doesn't this really give you guys what you wanted? The ability to make your Catholic Black Templars friends with your Protestant Sisters allies?

But there's no implication. I just quoted you the rules. For all rules purposes, previous references to C:BT now instead refer to C:SM6E with Black Templars Chapter Tactics. The rules for allies in BRB6E say "Find the row for the codex of your primary detachment".

Anyone debating otherwise is wrong.

To be fair - GW just confirmed what we always said - that the BT were religious nutters that embraced the SAME religion as the Sisters - not Protestant / Catholic but the same. i am happy that this is the case in the fluff but unhappy that it may be contradicted in the rules.

Lots of people are saying that this is not how it works....feel free to wade in

see here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/550588.page

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The Black Templars player base is fairly amusing. One half seems to be angry that the Black Templars no longer hate all psykers. And the other half seems bitter that they can't have Librarians.

The codex does though, explicitly say that for rules purposes, all previous references to Codex: Black Templars now refer to Codex: Space Marines. This would include the allies chart, as the Allies chart explicity says find the for for the codex of your primary detachment. Welcome your new Tau and Ork friends!

We, the Black Templar playerbase, are aware that we are amusing and we like it

The new dex provides inter-codex-alliances. Librarians, the less upgraded and just lexicanum/codifizer level of them, are available as "friends".
So happy we can keep up the hating on xeno-witches......oh wait. Codex SM allies.... maybe a few accidents, yes?

 Mr Morden wrote:
that the BT were religious nutters that embraced the SAME religion as the Sisters - not Protestant / Catholic but the same.

Wow. Assuming that this was the case all along and not just a retcon, that old allies chart makes even less sense now. No idea what their reasoning was on that.

One question, as I am currently waiting on my codex to reach me. Does it state how many marines the BT have? I hope they didn't cut their numbers down...

@ Troike:

The implication has always been there and has been expanded upon in BL novels like Helsreach.

@ Emperors Champion - no it does not give a specific number but I would say it implies its significantly less than it was (which is a shame):

relevant quotes:

"The Black Templars do not maintain ten distinct companies, each with its own flagship. Instead the Chapter is divided into a number of ad hoc formations that bear almost no resemblance to the organisation of a Codex company....."

"There is no fixed number of Crusades and the size can vary from as few as several battle brothers to several hundred."

"Then there is the fluff on the Emps Champion whcich says each Crusade should have one of the 10 sacred Black Swords."

 Mr Morden wrote:
@ Troike:

The implication has always been there and has been expanded upon in BL novels like Helsreach.

@ Emperors Champion - no it does not give a specific number but I would say it implies its significantly less than it was (which is a shame):

relevant quotes:

"The Black Templars do not maintain ten distinct companies, each with its own flagship. Instead the Chapter is divided into a number of ad hoc formations that bear almost no resemblance to the organisation of a Codex company....."

"There is no fixed number of Crusades and the size can vary from as few as several battle brothers to several hundred."

"Then there is the fluff on the Emps Champion whcich says each Crusade should have one of the 10 sacred Black Swords."

Well if it doesn't replace their current numbers it is safe to say they could still be around 4k-5k marines. Given we no longer need to have an EC with us, it sorta brings out his heroic nature and a more figurehead for the crusade and not every crusade will have one.

 Troike wrote:
Wouldn't a non-adherent codex be a bit all over the place, though? Chapters that don't adhere are going to have all sorts of unique tactical doctrines. If such a codex were to include a significant number or non-aherent Chapters, all sorts of tactics and mindsets would need to be represented. Or so I would think, anyway.

Depends on how the writer(s)/editor(s) choose to structure it, I suppose. So the answer is no, not really. Not if it was well written and well structured.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The Black Templars are a bunch of nutters who wander around the galaxy breaking all the rules. Before battles, they start speaking in tongues like some Southern Baptist revival, and the guy who flips out the best gets a suit of fancy armor and a big sword.

Exactly. Does it sound like they belong amongst codex marines? Nope.

 Mr Morden wrote:
no it does not give a specific number but I would say it implies its significantly less than it was (which is a shame)

How so?

Well it says there should be a maximum of 10 Crusades at any one time - and that Crusades have between 5 and 3-400 Marines.

I thought the sheer size of the Black Templars was one of the unique things about them.

Anfauglir wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The Black Templars are a bunch of nutters who wander around the galaxy breaking all the rules. Before battles, they start speaking in tongues like some Southern Baptist revival, and the guy who flips out the best gets a suit of fancy armor and a big sword.

Exactly. Does it sound like they belong amongst codex marines? Nope.

Codex: Space Marines isn't about what you do in your off time. it's just about how you utilize traditional Chapter assets.

If anything, getting moved to Codex: Space Marines is a doctrinal improvement for the Black Templars, since before they didn't know how to use artillery, or heavy weapon support, or reconnaissance. Whether or not their table top rules have improved is a different story. But I think ultimately, it's somewhat irrelevant, since they're smack dab in the middle of 6th Edition's Power Armor Nerf Bat anyway.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Well it says there should be a maximum of 10 Crusades at any one time - and that Crusades have between 5 and 3-400 Marines.

No, according to the very quotes you used, it says they are made up of "ad-hoc formations that bear almost no resemblance" to the hundred-strong codex company and that there is "no fixed number of Crusades", each of which may contain a few battle brothers (not likely), or hundreds (that's more like it).

Therefore, I'm struggling to find how it's implied that their previously estimated numbers are "significantly less". On the contrary, it seems there is now the possibility for many more of them to be spread across the galaxy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Codex: Space Marines isn't about what you do in your off time. it's just about how you utilize traditional Chapter assets.

No. An army book is an army book. All of its contents should fall under two broad categories; table top and/or fluff. I'm not interested in one without the other, never have, never will be. There are better game systems about, therefore many fans are here for the setting and the models, not the numbers.

If anything, getting moved to Codex: Space Marines is a doctrinal improvement for the Black Templars, since before they didn't know how to use artillery, or heavy weapon support, or reconnaissance. Whether or not their table top rules have improved is a different story. But I think ultimately, it's somewhat irrelevant, since they're smack dab in the middle of 6th Edition's Power Armor Nerf Bat anyway.

See above; I don't care about any of that, and going by the spirit of this topic (and pretty much any topic that touches on this subject), neither do most (or at least many) of BT fans/players. It's more than obvious we like them because of their character - warts and all, and that it's their refusal to play by the rules (middle finger to Guilliman and his codex) that constitutes a large part of their flavour. Rolling them into the codex tramples all over that. As for their doctrinal inefficiencies, they were never as big a drawback as you've (repeatedly) tried - and failed - to make them out to be. See previous discussions on the subject (there are several).

As a Sisters fan, reading that passage in the new C:SM blew me away. (So much so that I'm unlurking here after a long time to make my first post). It makes it sound like Sisters & Templars should be, not just Allies of Convenience, but Battle Brothers -- which, yes, I know, I know, no interpretation of the (much debated) current rules would allow. Maybe that's something worth discussing in the proposed rules forum?

Battle Brothers or not, it'd be nice to have some S4 T4, religiously fanatical men around the house to take out the trash in melee while the Sisters burn heretics to death from a distance....