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 pretre wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
How do you all use inquisitors and henchmen? I'm thinking of using them as fire support and rear guard.

Yep, pretty much.

I'm a fan of two squads of henchmen in a bastion with Coteaz and an Inquisitor. Plasma Cannons with perfect timing are hilarious.

I'm thinking of using two "Jakero" and some heavy weapon servitors and Acolytes with plasma guns or something like that. Jakero+heavy weapons=fun times. My Sisters need a little more Dakka.

Jokers are just so expensive for what you get. I keep wanting to try them though. Let me know how it works.

In my experience, Jokaero are pretty damned worth it.
35pts nets you a Lascannon, Multi-Melta AND Heavy Flamer, with BS3 and a 5+*.
In addition, this can grant you multiple bonuses for the entire squad.
With 2, this is never going to be nothing. So you're looking at:
+12" range to shooting by the unit.
+1 Armour Save for the unit.
All Shooting by the unit is Rending.
Everything in the unit has a 5+*.
Or: 2 of the above.

With Coteaz's rule against reserves, this is pretty damn brutal, especially if you have Coteaz manning a weapon.

 pretre wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
How do you all use inquisitors and henchmen? I'm thinking of using them as fire support and rear guard.

Yep, pretty much.

I'm a fan of two squads of henchmen in a bastion with Coteaz and an Inquisitor. Plasma Cannons with perfect timing are hilarious.

What's the alternative to using Inquisitors & Henchman as rear guard/gunline? I can think of

- Having them in a Vendetta to grab objectives and/or slam some key target with plasma/melta. High-risk, high-reward.

- Having them in a Land Raider (expensive!) as an assault unit... of S:3 T:3 models. (Well, ok, Assassins are S:4 and Daemonhosts --- snicker -- are S:4 T:4). Hmmm. This seems high-risk, medium-reward, and fething expensive. But the opportunity to unleash a Land Raider full of Daemonhosts on your enemy and roll one of the good results on their random powers table .... that could be pretty hilarious.

Inquisition gets Valks, not Vendettas.

 SisterSydney wrote:

 pretre wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
How do you all use inquisitors and henchmen? I'm thinking of using them as fire support and rear guard.

Yep, pretty much.

I'm a fan of two squads of henchmen in a bastion with Coteaz and an Inquisitor. Plasma Cannons with perfect timing are hilarious.

What's the alternative to using Inquisitors & Henchman as rear guard/gunline? I can think of

- Having them in a Vendetta to grab objectives and/or slam some key target with plasma/melta. High-risk, high-reward.

- Having them in a Land Raider (expensive!) as an assault unit... of S:3 T:3 models. (Well, ok, Assassins are S:4 and Daemonhosts --- snicker -- are S:4 T:4). Hmmm. This seems high-risk, medium-reward, and fething expensive. But the opportunity to unleash a Land Raider full of Daemonhosts on your enemy and roll one of the good results on their random powers table .... that could be pretty hilarious.

I was toying with the idea of putting them in an Chimera with the psybolts and using them as an assault unit, but my Sisters could use a little more firepower and Jakero pumped shooty squad seemed to be a good choice. My Inquisitor will be using presience on them as well and I hope to get the extended range.

A fun tactic I tried last night: A 20-Sister blob, Uriah Jacobus, and a Xenos Inquisitor with ML1, Rad Grenades, and Psykotroke grenades. (I would have liked to include Coteaz for an extra roll on the Divination chart and one use of Hammerhand, but alas I did not have the points.)

Now, this was a game against Orks, but they kicked unholy ass. They killed two full squads of boys, a Big Mek with a KFF, a 1/3rd strength unit of Nobz (Which included a Painboy), and his Warboss. And they took like 5 casualties all game, tops.

Now, it's true that his list wasn't particularly optimized, and his tactics were fething awful, (He only did as well as he did because I made a huge tactical mistake and let his Warboss get into my backline with a bunch of Nobz, killing about 600 points of my Space Wolves. If I had played it smart his Warboss and Nobz would have been dead turn 2, but I, like an idiot, fired my 5 Plasma Cannons at Ork Boys.)

Every time I got inti assault, (Either by charging or being charged) I never took a single wound. Since Orks have such cruddy initiative and he often charged through terrain, I always hit first, with rerolls to hit and wound against T3 Boyz and Nobz. If I had had Coteaz, and therefore gotten Hammerhand, it would have been hilariously irrelevant because he never got to hit anyways.
(Oh, and when his Warboss charged? At the same time as his Nobz, 'Ard Boyz, and Mek? I rolled a 6 with my Psykotroke grenades and everyone excelt his 2 unarmed Nobz failed their Initiative test.)

 SisterSydney wrote:

 pretre wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
How do you all use inquisitors and henchmen? I'm thinking of using them as fire support and rear guard.

Yep, pretty much.

I'm a fan of two squads of henchmen in a bastion with Coteaz and an Inquisitor. Plasma Cannons with perfect timing are hilarious.

What's the alternative to using Inquisitors & Henchman as rear guard/gunline? I can think of

- Having them in a Vendetta to grab objectives and/or slam some key target with plasma/melta. High-risk, high-reward.

- Having them in a Land Raider (expensive!) as an assault unit... of S:3 T:3 models. (Well, ok, Assassins are S:4 and Daemonhosts --- snicker -- are S:4 T:4). Hmmm. This seems high-risk, medium-reward, and fething expensive. But the opportunity to unleash a Land Raider full of Daemonhosts on your enemy and roll one of the good results on their random powers table .... that could be pretty hilarious.

Give DCAs a priest and Xenos inquisitor with Hammerhand and rad grenades and you get a unit whose greatest weakness is that they wipe out their opponents too fast and are vulnerable to shooting next turn.

In that setup DCAs against MEQ hit on a rerollable 3+ wound on a 2+ and get 4 attacks on the charge. 6 and a couple crusaders wipe out a 20 man MEQ blob on the initial charge. Against TEQ, only 1/6th as effective, but with the priest you can get reroll able 3++ from your crusaders.

+1 for Jokaeros. I like to run 2-3 in a unit with Coteaz casting presciene, some ablatative wound guys (4pt henchmen) and then either PC or HB servitors and possibly some plasma henchmen for fun. Its a great backfield unit and can put out a lot of hurt, and when the space monkeys give the plasma guns 36" range, winning.

So I modified my MSU sister list somewhat and played against a guard player at 2000 today.

My list ended up being:

Celestine
Jacobus

4 x BSS (5) - Flamer in Rhinos

2 x Dominions (5) - Metaguns x 4 in MM Immolators

3 x Exorcists

1 x Retributors (8) - Heavy Flamers x 4 and simulacrums

Coteaz

1 x henchmen (5) - Plasma servitors (3) and jokaeros (2)


Void Relay Network - 2 void shield generators at 3 shields and a promethium relay pipes.


By turn 5 I had lost a troop choice because they had to get out of their rhino which had immobilized itself, otherwise everything was alive full health.


My deployment was something like this.



/---------------\
[ ]..................[ ]

The top part being the relay pipes and the bottom the void shield generators which were exactly 12 inch between them as I needed some space to deploy. I had all troops but 1 in reserve and all exorcist in between generators as well as the rets, jacobus and celestine for counter charge purpose. Deployed Coteaz on a battlement on the right generator.

He did get through my left void shields a few times, but it would always take most of his big guns to get them down. He did kill a few of my rets afterwards, but never dented my exorcists since he had no firepower left for them by then.

There were a few weird scenarios that came up regarding void shields which we had to house rule on the spot since there was no way to find out how this would work but otherwise the above list performed extremely well.

Anything deep striking can be challenging, but coteaz makes this very dangerous so you can dictacte that somewhat.


The void shield generators I think make sisters extremely competitive. No longer do you have to go to them. Keep your troops in reserve and whether youre going first or second, it doesnt matter, your exorcists likely won't be touched on turn 1. If your opponent wants to get a chance at really taking them down, he will have to come to you and this play to our strength.

Yeah, in all the taking down knights threads, I was thinking how Void Shield generators would force the knights to come to you. Also the void shield would be pretty good against most fliers.

Mavnas wrote:
Yeah, in all the taking down knights threads, I was thinking how Void Shield generators would force the knights to come to you. Also the void shield would be pretty good against most fliers.

Good for defense. Maybe park an exo or two.
But are Doms in MM immo's good enough to take down a knight? Has anyone tried it yet?
Repentia would get insta-death-stomped. PE's probably wouldn't make it, but if they did, they might do some damage.
I'm adding a Jakero/plasma cannon servitor/inquisitor unit to by SOB for more added Anti-tank firepower in case my doms don't take the Knight out.

 MWHistorian wrote:

Mavnas wrote:
Yeah, in all the taking down knights threads, I was thinking how Void Shield generators would force the knights to come to you. Also the void shield would be pretty good against most fliers.

Good for defense. Maybe park an exo or two.
But are Doms in MM immo's good enough to take down a knight? Has anyone tried it yet?
Repentia would get insta-death-stomped. PE's probably wouldn't make it, but if they did, they might do some damage.
I'm adding a Jakero/plasma cannon servitor/inquisitor unit to by SOB for more added Anti-tank firepower in case my doms don't take the Knight out.

Actually, Repentia will do fine at anti-Knightery.
Even IF they get instant death-wiped out by the stomp, it's I1, and the StrD CCW will only kill 1-3 of them, leaving the remaining Repentia to curbstomp the Knight (it only needs 4 Repentia to live if charging, 6-8 if charged).

Melta weapons will need 6 to 36 shots to take down a Knight
(Best case, inside Melta Range, against AV12 with no save = 6)
(Worst case, outside Melta Range, against AV13 with Invun save = 36)

 Ovion wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

Mavnas wrote:
Yeah, in all the taking down knights threads, I was thinking how Void Shield generators would force the knights to come to you. Also the void shield would be pretty good against most fliers.

Good for defense. Maybe park an exo or two.
But are Doms in MM immo's good enough to take down a knight? Has anyone tried it yet?
Repentia would get insta-death-stomped. PE's probably wouldn't make it, but if they did, they might do some damage.
I'm adding a Jakero/plasma cannon servitor/inquisitor unit to by SOB for more added Anti-tank firepower in case my doms don't take the Knight out.

Actually, Repentia will do fine at anti-Knightery.
Even IF they get instant death-wiped out by the stomp, it's I1, and the StrD CCW will only kill 1-3 of them, leaving the remaining Repentia to curbstomp the Knight (it only needs 4 Repentia to live if charging, 6-8 if charged).

Melta weapons will need 6 to 36 shots to take down a Knight
(Best case, inside Melta Range, against AV12 with no save = 6)
(Worst case, outside Melta Range, against AV13 with Invun save = 36)

The stomp is In 1? That's a little better. They'll get their attacks off first at least. Also, the mistress can have a melta bomb.
That makes me a little more hopeful. Also, a priest could help out with his smash attack.

I think a squad with a superior and a priest both with melta bombs will only need about 10 sisters to take out a knight on average.

Only thing that could go seriously wrong is the priest being stomped and a 6 being rolled or you failing your 2+ LoS!

I played at 2000 against this IG / GK with an imperial knight list:

Company Command Squad with lascannon and bombardment guy.

2 veteran squads in chimeras with 3 plasmaguns each.

Pask in a Leman Russ Executionner with 2 plasma sponsons.

Draigo

7 strong Paladin squad with 2 psycannons and the apothecary

Dreadknight

Imperial Knight.


We play on tables that are quite heavy with terrain. Lots of high level cover and line of sight blocking terrain.

We ended up with Hammer and Anvil and still the knight was in assault by turn 3. I opted to ignore it. Cover and his 4++ shield meant I could not get around to getting clear shots at him, ever. His shooting output isnt all that great after you factor in cover saves. He will murder what he touches in close combat with stomps and his higher initiative means his sweeping advance will likely take your squad off, but he can only do so with 1 unit a turn. I would throw empty rhinos in his way to block his movement to great effect.

It was definitely a powerful unit, but by the end of the game I still had several troops alive, in their transports, and so was celestine and some seraphims while all he had left was the Knight (down to 3 hull points), Draigo with 1 wound left and 2 paladins.

I wasnt playing a very competitive list either. I suspect the one I listed above with the void shields would do much better. If Coteaz gets perfect timing and prescience, knights would definitely be in trouble at that point.

Voldrak wrote:
I played at 2000 against this IG / GK with an imperial knight list:

Company Command Squad with lascannon and bombardment guy.

2 veteran squads in chimeras with 3 plasmaguns each.

Pask in a Leman Russ Executionner with 2 plasma sponsons.

Draigo

7 strong Paladin squad with 2 psycannons and the apothecary

Dreadknight

Imperial Knight.


We play on tables that are quite heavy with terrain. Lots of high level cover and line of sight blocking terrain.

We ended up with Hammer and Anvil and still the knight was in assault by turn 3. I opted to ignore it. Cover and his 4++ shield meant I could not get around to getting clear shots at him, ever. His shooting output isnt all that great after you factor in cover saves. He will murder what he touches in close combat with stomps and his higher initiative means his sweeping advance will likely take your squad off, but he can only do so with 1 unit a turn. I would throw empty rhinos in his way to block his movement to great effect.

It was definitely a powerful unit, but by the end of the game I still had several troops alive, in their transports, and so was celestine and some seraphims while all he had left was the Knight (down to 3 hull points), Draigo with 1 wound left and 2 paladins.

I wasnt playing a very competitive list either. I suspect the one I listed above with the void shields would do much better. If Coteaz gets perfect timing and prescience, knights would definitely be in trouble at that point.

That's very hopeful. I'd love to hear a detailed battle report. I have yet to face a titan but probably will soon.

Hurray for people actually playing with significant amounts of terrain. If you set up a table where everyone has lovely clear lines of sight across the board, and it turns into a static shoot-out determined entirely by die rolls, who brought the biggest guns, and who got first turn, well, yeah, that was predictable.

I'm hoping my tripple exo's will be a deterrent.
If not, my two squads of doms in imo's will lend a hand. But the IK's better go down fast or I'm in trouble.

Hiding behind cover is probably your best friend if you don't get first turn....

 SisterSydney wrote:
Hiding behind cover is probably your best friend if you don't get first turn....

Combine that with Exorcists can fire after moving 6" and you're pretty sorted if you go second =)

Exorcists just do so little against AV13 compared to a proper set of meltaguns.

True. I ran the math on taking down a knight in this post in the How To Kill Knights thread and was shocked: Plain S8 penetrates or glances AV13 only 33% of the time, S8 melta (if you're close enough) pens or glances 83 percent of the time, and 72% of the time it's a penetration.

The trick is getting that Dominion squad in range of the giant stompy thing with a giant canon and 12" movement.

 SisterSydney wrote:
The trick is getting that Dominion squad in range of the giant stompy thing with a giant canon and 12" movement.

Outflanking will reach him 17" from the board edge, so unless he's in the middle, you should have him... (quick maths)

Scouting + 1st turn gives up to 30" (including the 6" shooting).

The thing the math thread made me realize though is that melta bombs are like meltaguns that always bypass the 4++. So if you had a regular BSS, with 2 melta guns and 2 melta bombs (second on a priest), you're almost there assuming you have something bigger and scarier that makes him turn away his shield.

Heck if you have a few melta units scattered throughout your army and he wants to use his str D blade you can easily let your opponent do the work of closing the gap for you. (This is where void shields excited me, because they can easily negate a single knight shooting all game.)

Mavnas wrote:Scouting + 1st turn gives up to 30" (including the 6" shooting).

If you get first turn, you want those Dominion squads Scouting. If you don't, Outflanking.

Mavnas wrote:The thing the math thread made me realize though is that melta bombs are like meltaguns that always bypass the 4++. So if you had a regular BSS, with 2 melta guns and 2 melta bombs (second on a priest), you're almost there assuming you have something bigger and scarier that makes him turn away his shield.

Yeah, since the stomp doesn't happen until Initiative 1, you will probably live to get your melta bombs off -- if you get in range. Getting to 6" for melta bonus on the meltaguns is tricky enough, though; charging the Knight is another 6" you have to close and you're trying to hit a WS:4 model....

BlackTalos wrote:

 SisterSydney wrote:
The trick is getting that Dominion squad in range of the giant stompy thing with a giant canon and 12" movement.

Outflanking will reach him 17" from the board edge, so unless he's in the middle, you should have him... (quick maths)

17"? Doesn't 6" move plus 6" dismount plus 6" melta range = 18"? Or am I missing something?

Yes I'm quibbling I know.

So on a 4'x4' table, or a 4'x6' table with players deploying on the short sides, it's 48" wide, flanking Dominions can melta anything within 18" of either side, a total of 36", so the a Knight has to stay in the middle 12". Confining but not undoable by any means.

On a board 6' wide -- 72" -- there's a 36" band in the middle of the board that's safe from flanking melta squads. But on such a wide board you can set up one Exorcist in each corner so that if he does stay in the middle, he can't block both of them with the shield. You're probably still shooting 1d6 shots of S8 at AV13, though: accordng to my math here, the Exorcist that gets past the shield is doing (roughly) an average of 1 HP a turn. The one that doesn't is doing 0.5 HP a turn. Barring a lucky Explodes! result, you're not taking down the Knight that fast, which means it makes tactical sense for the Knight to stay in the middle and endure the Exorcist crossfire to keep away from flanking Dominion squads.


BUT:

There's also bigger, unanswerable question of how much escort the Knight has to keep your squads from getting in melta effect range, let alone melta bomb range. And the question of what the rest of his army is doing or not doing to screen the Knight raises the question of what the rest of your army is doing, which means the kind of tactical match-ups we can do MathHammer for get subsumed in a much larger tactical equation with enough factors to be, well, chaos theory.

 SisterSydney wrote:
17"? Doesn't 6" move plus 6" dismount plus 6" melta range = 18"? Or am I missing something?

I was missing something: i was counting the 1" from the front of the rhino to 1st door. But then realised you'd 180° it anyway....

 BlackTalos wrote:

 SisterSydney wrote:
17"? Doesn't 6" move plus 6" dismount plus 6" melta range = 18"? Or am I missing something?

I was missing something: i was counting the 1" from the front of the rhino to 1st door. But then realised you'd 180° it anyway....

You'll still lose one inch because the model has to fully remain within 6" of the door when disembarking, making you lose 25mm = 1". So yeah, 17"

Hitting a WS4 model in melee with a zealot in your squad is easier than shooting it at BS4 on the first round.

In getting a regular BSS to him, I assume he comes to you. A knight that relies only on his shooting is a huge waste of points. The key is to still have enough to repel him when he hits your line.

Brother Michael wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 SisterSydney wrote:
17"? Doesn't 6" move plus 6" dismount plus 6" melta range = 18"? Or am I missing something?

I was missing something: i was counting the 1" from the front of the rhino to 1st door. But then realised you'd 180° it anyway....

You'll still lose one inch because the model has to fully remain within 6" of the door when disembarking, making you lose 25mm = 1". So yeah, 17"

Not really, i mean if you come in with the Rhino facing forward, and then point the back door at the titan (180 rotation) then the door will be 6" away from the edge.

Which has also made me think: does a unit have to "face forward" coming from reserve? or can you get the extra 1" from deploying sideways from reserve? =P

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