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2013/10/23 06:54:31
Subject: Customizing the Canoness: Making the Sisters' Real Leader Better than the Bloody Priests
Hm, the single Troops Celestians meshes quite well with the original rules for using a Canoness in an allied detachment - she had to take a bodyguard (seraphim with bolters instead of jump packs at that point) if included as an allied Character.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
2013/10/23 12:33:18
Subject: Customizing the Canoness: Making the Sisters' Real Leader Better than the Bloody Priests
That resonates with a thought I had that the only FOC change should be letting a jump pack Canoness take a Seraphim squad instead of a CCS, a bike Canoness to take a bike squad, a heavy Canoness to take a Retributor squad, etc -- ie whichever squad was appropriate would not take up a FOC slot, but would replace the option for a Command Squad (with all its special weapons etc) .
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
After much pondering, I've come up with radically revised Canoness upgrade options that draw on the fluff for every Major Order Militant (and its descendant Orders Minor) and which give special rules inspired by every kind of Adepta Sororitas squad except the basic Battle Sisters themselves. I'm eager for your comments, scathing or complimentary or best of all constructively critical.
Archmistress of Penitents: 40 points The Order of the Valorous Heart and those Orders Minor descended from or influenced by it field large numbers of Repentia. Under the stern eye of an Archmistress of Penitents, these outcast Sisters drive themselves into even greater ecstasies of self-sacrifice. Ignoring enemy fire that would drop a normal human, they hurl themselves through hell on earth towards their hope of heaven. Any Canoness may be upgraded to an Archmistress of Penitents. The Canoness and all Repentia squads in her detachment gain the Feel No Pain special rule. This is separate from and not cumulative with Repentia Act of Faith "Spirit of the Martyr."
Design Notes:
Spoiler:
One of the big complaints about the new digital Codex is that it takes away the Repentia's permanent Feel No Pain in exchanged for a boosted FNP for one phase if they roll decently. The Archmistress is a way for all of you with lots of Repentia models to run them again, if your opponent lets you. Following Ovion's homebrewing guidelines, adding a good special rule (not something lame like Acute Senses) to one independent character or one squad costs 10 points, so that's 40 points -- assuming you fill all three Elite slots with Repentia, because otherwise why are you bothering?
Canoness Celestial: 20 points The Order of the Ebon Chalice, the Order of the Argent Shroud, and their many offshoots among the Minor Orders Militant are reknowned for the furious piety of their Canonesses and elite Celestians. Any Canoness may be upgraded to a Canoness Celestial. The Canoness gains the Furious Charge special rule, as does her Sororitas Command Squad if one is taken.
Design Notes:
Spoiler:
This gives the SCS Celestians back the Furious Charge ability that normal Celestian squads have, and it gives them a commander to match. A good SR on one major independent character and one squad is worth 2x10 points, following Ovion. Obviously if you bought this option and didn't take the SCS it would be foolish as well as unfluffy.
Canoness Dominant: 25 points The Order of the Bloody Rose and its daughter Minor Orders are infamous for the ferocity of their Dominion squads. Many of their Canonesses are veterans of these swift-striking units and retain their skills of scouting and markswomanship. Any Canoness may be upgraded to a Canoness Dominant. The Canoness gains the Acute Senses and Scout special rules, and all her shooting attacks gain the Ignore Cover special rule. She may also take a weapon from the Special Weapons list.
Design Notes:
Spoiler:
Normally, 3 SRs would cost 30 points, but Acute Senses is lame. Also I'm not going to make people pay points for the option of paying points to take a melta (because you're not going to take a flamer for her, are you?). Note that unlike regular Dominions, the Canoness doesn't need an AOF to Ignore Cover, she's so fervent that she can do it all the bloody time without needing to roll.
Canoness Enthroned: 35 points An offshoot of the Bloody Rose, the Order Minor of the Fiery Wheel and its many imitators field large numbers of Throne squads and are often led into battle by a Canoness and Celestians themselves mounted on agile Sororitas bikes. If a Canoness has taken a Sororitas Bike, her Sororitas Command Squad may be mounted on Sororitas Bikes for 35 points. Any bike-mounted Celestian may also replace her bike's Storm Bolter with a Special Weapon at the normal points cost for that Special Weapon. They may not, however, take any Heavy Weapons: The Sororitas Bike is too slender to accommodate them.
Design Notes:
Spoiler:
Based on the cost for upgrading a Marine CCS to bikers.
- A model on a Sororitas Bike gains the Hit & Run, Scout, and Skilled Rider Special Rules.
- A Sororitas bike is armed with a Storm Bolter (unless an upgrade to another weapon is bought).
- Otherwise, a Sororitas Bike follows all the normal rules for Bikes (BRB p.54).
Canoness Seraphic: 25 points The Order of the Argent Shroud and its daughter orders, exemplars of understated but ferocious piety, field more Seraphim than other others and often draw their leaders -- and their leaders' bodyguards -- from their ranks, retaining and perfecting jump-pack tactics over long careers. A Canoness who has taken a Jump Pack may be further upgraded to a Canoness Seraphic, with the following additional rules:
- The Canoness and any unit she has joined do not scatter when they Deep Strike.
- The Canoness may take a hand flamer for a further 5 points or a pair of hand flamers for 10 points.
- If the Canoness does not take a Sororitas Command Squad, she may instead take a Seraphim Command Squad. This squad does not take up a Force Organization Chart choice and any and all of its members may be upgraded to Seraphim Superiors for a further 10 points each. In all other respects it has the same cost, options, and rules as a Seraphim Squad.
[/spoiler]
Design Notes:
Spoiler:
Basically she gets a kind of teleport homer that doesn't have to be on the board before she Deep Strikes (good) but only works for one unit one time (bad), which I figure nets out at +15 points. She also gets a new FOC option (+10 points) and the option to buy hand flamers (not worth costing).
I had originally thought of simply buying jump packs for the Sororitas Command Squad, but that would require so many changes to the SCS rules -- different weapons options, different Act of Faith, no banners because c'mon you can't carry a banner while jumping around on jets of fire -- that I decided it was simpler, rules-wise, to describe it as a free Seraphim Squad you can upgrade to all Superiors, which gets you the same stats with a lot less screwing around.
Canoness Retributant: 20 points Level-headed Retributors often rise to the top ranks of the Sacred Rose and its daughter Orders. A lifetime of training allows these Canonesses to employ both heavy weapons and heavy weapons units with exceptional fluidity on the battlefield. Any Canoness may be upgraded to a Canoness Retributant. The Canoness and any squad she joins gain the Relentless special rule. In addition, the Canoness may take a weapon from the Heavy Weapons list.
Design Notes:
Spoiler:
SR on one IC & one squad = 20 points. Yes this is silly to take if you don't also give your Canoness and her entire Sororitas Command Squad multi-meltas or heavy bolters.
Canoness Vengeant: 30 points The Order of Our Martyred Lady burns eternally with its passion to avenge the death of their founder, Saint Katherine, and all the other injuries and insults the Imperium has suffered over the millennia. Their leaders and those of their offshoot Orders Minor are often terrifyingly expert in the use of cleansing flame. Any Canoness may be upgraded to a Canoness Vengeant. The Canoness gains a heavy flamer. Her heavy flamer and any template weapon in any unit she joins gain the Twin-Linked special rule.
Design notes:
Spoiler:
I didn't want to leave the Martyred Lady out, and I figured this would be a toasty little upgrade for them. The heavy flamer, twin-inked on the Canonness, and twin-linked on flamers in her unit add up to 30 points by Ovion's rules of thumb.
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
Archmistress of Penitents: Since Repentia are not a part of their order (at least the way it's described in their fluff) putting a Canoness over them seems odd but I can see what you're going for here.
Celestial: Actually Argent Shroud is known for their incredible faithfulness, acts of great heroism and their belief that actions speak louder than words.
Dominant: Name needs a little work so it doesn't sound like she is a Domimatrix.
Enthroned: Honestly I still dislike your bikes. They don't feel like bikes to me, and seem too small and slight to handle their riders who have to weigh several hundred pounds in power armor (to give you an idea, a Marine weighs nearly a ton in his). That aside, no sidecars for the heavy guns? We've done that in real life you know.
Seraphic: No scatter DS are worth quite a bit. With that you could slap Celestine in there and really hurt somebody.Also for those Seraphim you're paying 24 points per model if you run all Superiors for what is a very small upgrade.
Retributant: Looks fine honestly.
Vengeant: I never associated ML with burning things down but more with being brash and rushing into to beat the heads of heretics into a fine paste. But to each their own interpretation.
2013/10/31 15:08:58
Subject: Re:Customizing the Canoness: Making the Sisters' Real Leader Better than the Bloody Priests
If ML is associated with something, it's their determination. Their description in that little picture fluffing each Order talks about how determined they are, even by the high standards of the SoB.
Spoiler:
So if you're trying to do something specifically for ML, maybe tie it into that somehow?
SisterSydney wrote: An offshoot of the Bloody Rose, the Order Minor of the Fiery Wheel [...] mounted on agile Sororitas bikes.
Hmmm.
Hey, Syndney, did you happen to participate in a certain thread on a certain site?
Order of the Righteous Armour - 542 points so far.
2013/11/01 03:41:23
Subject: Customizing the Canoness: Making the Sisters' Real Leader Better than the Bloody Priests
As always, thanks for comments. Three thoughts, one small, one medium, and one big:
1. Bikes: Not changin' em
Spoiler:
I'm convinced that Sororitas Bikers should get the same +1 Toughness as Marines and Eldar ("who are basically made out of glass" -- I love that, Clockwork). But I still want their bikes to look, feel, and act on the tabletop very differently from the Marine ones, and what I think fits the Sororitas is to be more lightly armed (Assault weapons only) but more agile (Hit & Run, Scout, Skilled Rider). Am I gender stereotyping? Maaaaaaybe....The Marine bikers are tougher, but the Sisters can ride circles around them. A heavily armed sidecar seems kinda clunky. My mental image here is less of big guys on Harleys IN SPACE and more Kaneda's bike from Akira IN SPACE. Yes fine I like some anime in my 40K what are you going to do about it I'm not embarrassed I'm really not really
2. Canoness Seraphic: Whoops, better change 'er
Ah, okay, Clockwork's right, I screwed this one up:
Spoiler:
I was the most worried about this one, too, but an infallibly deep-striking Celestine was an abuse I did not think of. Although it's also kind of awesome. So, setting aside improving Deep Strike (for the moment at least), what other buffs can you give Seraphim to make them, well, even more Seraphimy? - A "leap of faith" ability to go back into reserve & deep strike again, like Eldar jump infantry's "Skyleap"? - Better initiative so they strike first and can almost always pull off their Hit & Run? - Canoness can jump into a duel and pull off Heroic Intervention from halfway across the board? - Extra Hammer of Wrath? - Or bring back the old Angelic Visage in all its glory, as "Archangelic Visage" perhaps, so the Canoness gives +1 Leadership to every friendly unit in 6" and/or allows them to reroll failed AOF like a Laud Hailer? I think I like that last one best, but I'm very open to advice.
As for the command squad, forget swapping in a Seraphim squad for the Sororitas Command Squad and just allow a Seraphic Canoness to give her SCS jump packs for 40 points (same as jump packs for a Marine Company Command Squad). But you have to tweak them: - let them take hand flamers or inferno pistols. - don't let them take heavy weapons or banners. - replace their Endless Crusade AOF (which is all movement bonuses that are redundant for jump troops) with the Seraphim's AOF to Shred.
3. Matching Orders with Units
My goal is to have one Canoness upgrade option for each Order and for each unit besides basic Battle Sisters, including my own homebrew units because I'm a raging narcissists. In some cases, which Order should get buffs with which unit is obvious from fluff, especially in the new Codex, but in other cases it's not -- at least to me given my level of canon knowledge. (Lynata, help). So I'd appreciate suggestions.
Note that since there are six Orders and five kinds of Sororitas that aren't troops -- i.e. Celestians, Repentia, Dominions, Seraphim, and Retributors -- obviously this isn't going to match up perfectly. What follows is my thinking for you to agree with or tear a new one:
Spoiler:
The new codex's descriptions of each Major Order are largely but not entirely copypasta from the one-pager Troike posted. Specifically, the codex adds some details to Argent Shroud & Martyred Lady:
Argent Shroud: quiet determination; Codex adds they have lots of Celestians & Seraphim. - Okay, that's pretty explicit, but why do they get to be best at two kinds of squads? That's why I shared the Celestian buffs with the Ebon Chalice (see below). The Seraphim buffs I'm rewriting, as above.
Martyred Lady: fierce, determined, vengeful; Codex mentions a particular preference for "cleansing flames." - Ok, no particular unit there, but certainly suggests a buff to flamers. It's hard to come up with a way to make a Canoness more determined or vengeful than she already is, since she has Stubborn, Leadership 10, and Hatred as an Act of Faith. (Fearless makes her too like a Priest and also unwilling to take cover or retreat from unwinnable fights, which seems out of character for a combat veteran). Alternatively, I could say my homebrews Sororitas infiltrators (Vigils) match up with "determined and vengeful" but I think that's a stretch, and I don't want to match a canonical Order with a homebrew unit. Suggestions especially welcome on this one.
The others seem unchanged from the one-pager:
Valorous Heart: "most penitent" and therefore generates a lot of Repentia. - My take: Repentia are by definition outcast from their parent Order but I presume they are more likely to fight alongside it than alongside anyone else. So VH should buff Repentia, and giving them back permanent Feel No Pain (while keeping extra-strength FNP for an Act of Faith) seemed like the logical buff, given how many people are complaining about Repentia losing permanent FNP. Fluff thought: Maybe the Archmistress of Penitents is even one of those rare Repentia who survived and redeemed herself, then returned to her Order and rose to Canoness or Preceptoress. Now she presses those who fell as she once did to redeem themselves as she did or die trying.
Bloody Rose: "aggressive and impetuous," and their Dominions in particular renowned for "ferocity." - Ok, easy, give Canoness the Scout special rule to reflect she's probably a Dominion who rose through the ranks. Since Canonesses don't get the Dominions' Ignore Cover AOF, give her Ignores Cover permanently on all her attacks to represent her superior faith and firepower.
Sacred Rose: calm, rational, resolute, serene; associated with Retributors. - Ok, easy, what do Retributors -- or any Heavy Weapons unit -- need most? Relentless. That takes away heavies' greatest weakness (BS1 on the move) and makes them pretty frickin' terrifying in a way that making them even better shooters (twin-linked, shred, whatever) does not.
Ebon Chalice: the oldest and most conservative Order, with uniforms, rituals, and tactics "largely unchanged for 4,000 years." - Um. So they're archetypical Sororitas, the template from which all other Orders Major and Minor derive. So how do you make them distinctive? Well, Celestians are the archetypical perfect Sororitas. (The Repentia are the archetypical imperfect Sororitas. Hey, GW, wanna read up on the Madonna/Whore Complex a little?) So I figured Ebon Chalice should get super-Celestians. What does the Sororitas Command Squad lose when they're promoted from regular Celestians? Their Furious Charge AOF. Ok, if the Ebon Chalice has super-Celestians, let them have Furious Charge all the time.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/01 03:43:16
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
Martyred Lady's specially buffed unit... shouldn't it be obvious?
Standard Battle Sister squads. Make them Determinators - no matter how much they get beaten down, they get back up and keep trudging forwards. Give standard BSS a Feel No Pain save and the Stubborn rule, and let them always rally as if led by a Character (so no double-one needed when under 25% strength).
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
2013/11/01 12:21:21
Subject: Customizing the Canoness: Making the Sisters' Real Leader Better than the Bloody Priests
Buffing Basic Battle Sisters is a good idea. Probably the specific SRs you mention are over the top in combination for the whole army. Maybe Stubborn within 6" of the Canoness for 30 points (assuming you can probably get 2-4 units in that radius besides the one Canoness is in)?
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
Well, then you come back to "Is it an Order trait or a Canoness buff?"
Feel No Pain for basic Battle Sister squads (not Dominions, Celestians, Seraphim or Retributors) isn't too broken - not compared to Blood Angels army-wide FnP bubbles.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
2013/11/01 22:49:05
Subject: Customizing the Canoness: Making the Sisters' Real Leader Better than the Bloody Priests
In brief: I'm thinking Canoness buffs, both for the character herself and those she personally leads -- but not for her entire force.
At length: I'm coming round to the position that since a new codex just came out, I should homebrew things that fit with and add to it, rather than try to replace or revise it (which was my approach to the White Dwarf 'dex). That means we need to pay points for anything we get above and beyond what the digital codex provides -- which means, in turn, living without free Order Traits.
And buying a special rule for a whole portion of your force is expensive if you use Ovion's 10 points per squad per SR guideline (which I think is pretty fair). What's more, I find it much more tactically interesting if you have a bubble effect around a particular HQ character and therefore have to think about where and how to use that character, instead of automatically buffing units regardless of distance.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Basically, I prefer HQ characters who actually lead units & improve their performance -- either by joining a particular unit or providing a bubble over several units -- rather than HQs who are pure beatstick.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/01 23:30:04
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
Holy feth. BURN IT DOWN OLGA BABY BURN IT BURN IT DOWN.
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
I think that's a new description of how awesome the Sisters are.
"Every Cannoness is the reincarnation of St. Olga of Kiev. In Power Armour."
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
2013/11/03 00:23:15
Subject: Customizing the Canoness: Making the Sisters' Real Leader Better than the Bloody Priests
I like it, I have been taking looks and reading over it for past two days. This would make sisters worth taking if you dislike losing 8 out of 10 games.
Yeah...it's kinda like that.
2013/11/03 01:36:39
Subject: Customizing the Canoness: Making the Sisters' Real Leader Better than the Bloody Priests
Thanks. Any particular upgrade or wargear your favorite? Anything that just doesn't work for you? The more specific the feedback, the more awesomer.
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
SisterSydney wrote: Thanks. Any particular upgrade or wargear your favorite? Anything that just doesn't work for you? The more specific the feedback, the more awesomer.
Your welcome, and thanks I got to be honest I think the condemnor Bolter should operate the way its read. And I don't own or play sisters of battle, I am just a marine and Eldar player but I still think the condemnor Bolter is cool.
I think you should leave it alone though before it gets complicated and out of control.
Its to bad these rules revisions don't actually get published :( I totally want to see my SWMC in the next SW codex
Yeah...it's kinda like that.
2013/11/03 13:01:20
Subject: Customizing the Canoness: Making the Sisters' Real Leader Better than the Bloody Priests
A Space Marine Monstrous Creature? (SMMC?) You should totally post that if you haven't already.
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
I really don't have much to add here - you seem to have quickly developed a good grasp of the Sisterhood, especially when it comes to the newer material. I think I'm mostly helpful when it comes to the old, elusive stuff.
For what little feedback springs to mind (note that my experience with 6E is actually rather small!), I would have actually considered point cost reductions for the Argent Shroud. The fluff says they have more of these troops, not that theirs are better. The best way to represent this could be a sort of discount on Seraphim and Celestians past the squad minimum. This doesn't exactly fit to your idea of giving each Order a specific perk as a bonus ... but at the same time, it also avoids looking exactly like that, as if each of the Orders would neatly fit some sort of drawer rather than a variety of minor differences that may sometimes only be noticed on second glance.
As for the Order of Our Martyred Lady, I would not really interpret the Codex as a preference for flamers (as cool as this would be) unless you also consider the "put to the sword" in the same sentence as a preference for close combat - to me, it just seems like metaphors for what the Sisters as a whole do, though. Their actual focus seems to be this single-minded determination and thirst for vengeance. Perhaps you can wrangle a trait out of that? I think Furyou Miko had an excellent idea regarding the use of normal Battle Sisters there, as the Codex mentions this determination to be a trait of the entire convent. Ideally, it should thus be a trait for all Sisters, but that might get too powerful and/or not fit to your idea of granting each Order a specific unit focus. Not sure about the FNP, though. It's a rather powerful trait, and though I think the Sisters as a whole might deserve it, it could be too much candy for one Order over any of the others. How about instead giving Battle Sisters the Indomitable Belief from the Warlord Traits? The Shield of Faith invul save has the same source as FNP, so ... Or just give them only Stubborn? It probably depends on how "visible" you think an Order's traits should be, and how much its troops should be different from another convent. Keep in mind that I grew up on the Liber Sororitas, which mentioned these differences you list, but also made clear that the Sisterhood is a single organisation and a lot of transfers happen between the Orders, so perhaps this is also a question of interpretation.
Lastly, ... Scouting Bloody Rose Canoness just feels weird. For one, it's nailing down a custom character into a specific background (-> having been a Dominion .. and Dominions becoming Canonesses probably shouldn't happen too often, considering who the real elite is), and secondly a Canoness' place is with the main force, not leading a small band of skirmishers into the enemy's flank. I'm biased here because I also do not believe in the Jump-Canoness, though, and she actually had rules once, so take my advice with a grain of salt. Still, it seems weird that you focus on the Canoness (who isn't mentioned with any word in the fluff) whilst leaving the actual Dominions (who are featured in that text) unchanged. Isn't there a trait that could fit to our shock troops? How about ATSKNF? /trollface
[edit] Also, holy feth @ St. Olga
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/04 06:00:39
2013/11/04 06:11:12
Subject: Customizing the Canoness: Making the Sisters' Real Leader Better than the Bloody Priests
I read that whole thing on saint olga. I'm more surprised with all that she did she was still somehow sainted. Don't people do good things to be sainted? All I recall is her basically trolling the dude that baptized her and flipping off him and anybody that crossed her. Sheesh remind me never to make her upset. I'm more surprised they were duped so easily. Guess some people don't realize people might take offense to their significant others getting killed by you.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/11/04 06:46:49
People get sainted for furthering the cause of the catholic church and performing miracles. The whole idea that you get sainted for doing "good things" comes from the fact that according to the Catholic Church, 'good things' and 'furthering the cause of the catholic church' are synonyms.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
2013/11/04 07:22:52
Subject: Customizing the Canoness: Making the Sisters' Real Leader Better than the Bloody Priests
People get sainted for furthering the cause of the catholic church and performing miracles. The whole idea that you get sainted for doing "good things" comes from the fact that according to the Catholic Church, 'good things' and 'furthering the cause of the catholic church' are synonyms.
I had to quote this because that was awesome and well said!
Yeah...it's kinda like that.
2013/11/04 09:25:57
Subject: Customizing the Canoness: Making the Sisters' Real Leader Better than the Bloody Priests
People get sainted for furthering the cause of the catholic church and performing miracles. The whole idea that you get sainted for doing "good things" comes from the fact that according to the Catholic Church, 'good things' and 'furthering the cause of the catholic church' are synonyms.
Well I know that some saints didn't do the most noble things but shouldn't there at least be a few decent saints?
I suppose I kind of went on that road that somehow after all the killing she did good and that's why she was sainted. She sort of did but they didn't really flesh out that part of the story. I suppose nobody wants to hear the boring parts. I suppose I could let most of this go if she didn't basically set a whole city on fire killing everybody inside soldier, citizen or even animals left inside and even after having basically won the fight and starved them. Attacking those that wronged you is one thing but when you attack others in such a way that it over-shadows what was done to you or you become the villain to another that was completely left out of the picture then you get rid of any sympathy anybody had for you. You just become a hypocrite. I'm sorry to say it but burning down an entire city and killing everybody was just too far though everything else felt a bit justified. She should've executed the ones that wronged her and spared the people that surrendered. Perhaps sometimes i'm too nice in some matters.
I know you guys are glorifying the person and perhaps it's ok if it's just a character in a made up game but I find it a little disturbing how often people commemorate bad*sses. Note to me how many bad*sses are either careless, reckless or just plain *ssholes. Seriously every time somebody says somebody or something is bad*ss write it down and see how many times it fits under that category (reckless, careless or *ssholes). When it comes to mind it seems frequent but i'm curious to know how frequent it is every time an event comes up.
I dunno I just find it terrible when somebody does something that's safe and reliable nearly every time and it works nobody is interested but if somebody does something that works 15% of the time and somehow lives badly injured doing something stupid while barely succeeding everybody cheers them on. Sometimes people make me a bit ashamed to be one of them though I suppose that seems to cast me in a high light when really i'm as bad as them at times too if not worse. Just sometimes I realize certain awful things nobody seems to notice about human nature.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/04 10:31:05
I wouldn't think she was a hypocrite - for that she'd have to genuinely believe in a noble cause, yet from what it sounds like she really was just pissed. The hypocrisy would come from the canonisation, but that wasn't her call.
As for the glorification ... I suppose there is some truth to that, though you have to remember that morale and values evolve over time, and it was a different era. Her character is a product of its time, and her actions were surely regarded in a different light back then than they would if you'd pull off something like this today.
Not a justification, just a matter of setting things into perspective.
But yes, mankind has an affinity for allowing decisiveness and bravery ("badassery") to excuse a wide range of terrible behavioural patterns - even today, and even in the western world. It may be our evolutionally hardwired herd instinct reacting to what our ancestors would have regarded as great leaders for our tribe.
2013/11/04 14:20:52
Subject: Customizing the Canoness: Making the Sisters' Real Leader Better than the Bloody Priests
flamingkillamajig wrote: Well I know that some saints didn't do the most noble things but shouldn't there at least be a few decent saints?
Some, but not everyone is as squeaky clean as we like to pretend they are. Mother Teresa preferred the sick and ill to suffer so they could be "closer to God" (no she didn't do anything to cause them suffering, but took no steps to help them when they were either).
flamingkillamajig wrote: I suppose I kind of went on that road that somehow after all the killing she did good and that's why she was sainted. She sort of did but they didn't really flesh out that part of the story.
She is in effect the reason Russia exists, and why they adopted Christianity. "Badass of the Week" tries to focus on the major accomplishments of the person because they're trying to teach history to people who otherwise don't care about it.
flamingkillamajig wrote: I suppose nobody wants to hear the boring parts. I suppose I could let most of this go if she didn't basically set a whole city on fire killing everybody inside soldier, citizen or even animals left inside and even after having basically won the fight and starved them.
You're right, most people don't want the boring parts.
Did you consider that perhaps she did what she did to ensure that there could be no retaliation? They won this conflict but she had to make sure it stayed won.
flamingkillamajig wrote: Attacking those that wronged you is one thing but when you attack others in such a way that it over-shadows what was done to you or you become the villain to another that was completely left out of the picture then you get rid of any sympathy anybody had for you. You just become a hypocrite. I'm sorry to say it but burning down an entire city and killing everybody was just too far though everything else felt a bit justified. She should've executed the ones that wronged her and spared the people that surrendered. Perhaps sometimes i'm too nice in some matters.
You're using your own ethics to judge someone from a different time, place and who had different concerns from you. It's easy now to condemn such actions but she did what she felt was right and just. Her method also meant the families of those who wronged her couldn't come back and try and retaliate against her either.
flamingkillamajig wrote: I know you guys are glorifying the person and perhaps it's ok if it's just a character in a made up game but I find it a little disturbing how often people commemorate bad*sses. Note to me how many bad*sses are either careless, reckless or just plain *ssholes. Seriously every time somebody says somebody or something is bad*ss write it down and see how many times it fits under that category (reckless, careless or *ssholes). When it comes to mind it seems frequent but i'm curious to know how frequent it is every time an event comes up.
And some people who are called "Badass" are people who do extraordinary things in the face of their circumstances. For example: http://www.badassoftheweek.com/hayha.html he's considered a badass but he was just a simple farmer who was trying to help fend off the Russians when they invaded Finland. Or this guy: http://www.badassoftheweek.com/young.html whose unique running style and insane endurance lead to him winning a number marathons. The first of which he did so two-days ahead of the previous record for it (he then split the $10K prize between all the runners because he didn't feel right taking the money for himself).
Are some people who are labelled "badass" reckless, careless or just plain jerks? Probably. But there are quite a few who do what they can with the situations they're faced with and come out on top and honestly I don't see why they can't be celebrated at least a little.
flamingkillamajig wrote: I dunno I just find it terrible when somebody does something that's safe and reliable nearly every time and it works nobody is interested but if somebody does something that works 15% of the time and somehow lives badly injured doing something stupid while barely succeeding everybody cheers them on. Sometimes people make me a bit ashamed to be one of them though I suppose that seems to cast me in a high light when really i'm as bad as them at times too if not worse. Just sometimes I realize certain awful things nobody seems to notice about human nature.
You should be mad at society for that, not for those who have the spotlight thrust upon them then. Not everyone who ends up in the spotlight is a jerk, and a lot of them don't ask for the spotlight. It's because of that I feel it's not fair to condemn them just because they achieved fame.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/04 14:22:31
2013/11/04 16:01:33
Subject: Re:Customizing the Canoness: Making the Sisters' Real Leader Better than the Bloody Priests
I'd agree that burning the city was a war crime by modern standards... but just creative tactics for the standards of the time. Remember this was the darkest of the Dark Ages, when Christian civilization was fighting to survive as powerful non-Christian forces (Vikings, Magyars, Arabs) invaded, raided, and set up powerful kingdoms on all sides while Byzantium in the east lost half its territory and the Holy Roman Empire in the west fractured altogether. I find it hard to blame the Church for canonizing pretty any pagan potentate who converted to Christianity and dragged his/her people along.
Later on, when Christendom was under less threat and the Church itself more civilized, they canonized some pretty cool people, like Saint Thomas Aquinas -- a scholar who helped revive Greek and Roman learning -- and above all Saint Francis, who during his lifetime was considered so controversial that many in the clergy wanted him excommunicated, if not executed: Only the protection of the current Pope kept him (mostly) safe.
Also note Saint Olga an Orthodox saint, not a Roman Catholic one. Technically the Great Schism between the Western, Latin-speaking Church and the Eastern, Greek-speaking Church doesn't happen until 1054, almost a century after Olga's death, but de facto the two halves of Christianity had already gone separate ways. (I don't have much of a dog in this fight -- I'm Episcopalian aka Anglican, which is a not-really-Protestant offshoot of Church of Rome that today has pretty good relations with the Eastern Orthodox).
2. Back on topic!
Lynata wrote: I would have actually considered point cost reductions for the Argent Shroud. The fluff says they have more of these troops, not that theirs are better.....
As for the Order of Our Martyred Lady, I would not really interpret the Codex as a preference for flamers (as cool as this would be) unless you also consider the "put to the sword" in the same sentence as a preference for close combat - to me, it just seems like metaphors for what the Sisters as a whole do, though. Their actual focus seems to be this single-minded determination and thirst for vengeance. Perhaps you can wrangle a trait out of that? I think Furyou Miko had an excellent idea regarding the use of normal Battle Sisters there, as the Codex mentions this determination to be a trait of the entire convent.....
Lastly, ... Scouting Bloody Rose Canoness just feels weird. .....a Canoness' place is with the main force, not leading a small band of skirmishers into the enemy's flank....whilst leaving the actual Dominions (who are featured in that text) unchanged. Isn't there a trait that could fit to our shock troops?...
Lynata and Furyou have convinced me a "stubborn" bubble around the Canoness for basic Battle Sisters Squads is the way to go for Our Martyred Lady. (Or maybe even ATSKNF). Forget the flamer bonus, that was a reach on my part, your idea is better.
Argent Shroud getting point reductions is neat, but I don't think Marine Chapter Tactics work that way, and I think no opponent would let you get away with that.
As for the Bloody Rose Canoness, the idea is that you take three Dominion squads (or Oriflamme scout tanks), put the Scouting Canoness in with her Sororitas Command Squad or other high-powered unit that doesn't normally get to Scout, put everybody into Immolators, and slam four mechanized squads full of flamers & melta into the enemy's face on turn one. Or drive them up the enemy's **** on turns 2-3. So she's leading the main effort, and a highly aggressive & risky main effort at that . If you did just put her with a "small band of skirmishers," I agree it'd be a waste in tactical terms and out of character in narrative terms.
Finally, why am I doing most of these as Canoness upgrades? Because I find giving HQ characters the ability to buff the units they join or are nearby -- leaders who actually lead -- much more interesting for both tactics and narrative than a one-time bonus to the whole army, after which you can just use the HQ character as a disposable beatstick or park her behind an Aegis firing a Quad Gun.
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
