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Orlanth wrote: A bunch of head-in-the-clouds artistes who have no idea how to do business, and are rather innocent.
You actually mean, this, don't you.
With crowdfunding, there's no difference between scamming and a incompetence. If someone mismanages a project because they're "innocent", your money is still gone.
There's a greater chance that GZ will fulfill than ADW, but it's still not 1.
As ced said, although its nice to know that their hearts might be in the right place,I don't see that this actually makes any difference. I've always felt sure that they would do everything in their power to complete, purely because they risk dragging the name of their perfectly successful miniatures company through the mud if they don't. If this project does fall through and everyone loses their money, I can't imagine anyone will every purchase a gamezone miniature again. I'm sure that is a big enough incentive for them.
Anyway, here is the Arnold Schwarzenegger of the Dwarf world....
With crowdfunding, there's no difference between scamming and a incompetence. If someone mismanages a project because they're "innocent", your money is still gone.
My money is not 'gone', I beleive will get my Heroquest games miniatures. Gamezone have completed half the projects and are working on the rest, full production mirrors design on an item by item basis.
They also took on extra staff and have done the translations already.
Gamezone have bitten off more than they can chew, but they can still swallow. Even now we are seeing quality products cycling forward in the project. They are probably making all the veteran barbarians and paladins right now and bagging them one each per backers pledge.
Anyway, here is the Arnold Schwarzenegger of the Dwarf world....
Yet again, more stuff seeping out, another piece of the project realised.
Dwarves with huge muscles, why don't we see this often enough? Even most of the GW slayer range are fairly modest in the arm.
I hope I can repose the anvil flail, another feature I really like, if a little impractical as a weapon.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/26 10:23:24
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Another official update, translation courtesy of Google....
It has quite passed since the last time we show the board game HeroQuest 25th anniversary but we think the effort we've put into it has paid off . To recap a bit about this topic you will remember that we talk about a double-sided board with the classic dungeon on one side and some on the other ruins outside . In addition , as an optional add-on, we have a modular board, also double-sided , arising from cutting the classic dungeon and has a variant on the other side.
In many cases this second face of the modular board as an alternative illustration only reflects but others talk about completely different rooms with direct effects on the development of the game. For example , the central hall of the board becomes a dangerous pit with a border around it tight while some sections of the hall are flooded delaying the progress of our heroes.
For even more variety , eventually had three extra pieces for a total of six special rooms that you can use to modify the base or by the modular board to expand their boundaries so that you prefer to board. But that's not all , and here comes the surprise.
As we finished defining the boards we tested different types of division between rooms, from simple lines to a ridiculously large number of walls . Trying to find a style that in certain scenarios allow us to specify which sections of wall were demolished to unite stays each other, but finally found the solution in our specialty, miniatures.
Therefore we can establish you as the 25th Anniversary box HeroQuest no additional cost include a sufficient number of pieces of scenery crumbling corners ; sobrepasables markers pointing walls and partially obstruct the line of sight but not prevented. We hope you like the idea, as we do with end panels that you find to your liking ...
So this should address the problem about not having many big rooms Orlanth!
Here's an image showing both sides of every modular board tile.
Several other images were posted, but they're identical to those that were leaked last week.
I am chuffed that Gamezone are freely adding items that were not advertised or asked for in the crowdfund project.
I consider it a gift from Gamezone to backers to have the room corners. They will be nice for delimiting currently used rooms extra clearly. Unnecessary but welcome nontheless.
I wonder if GZ could be persuaded to have indents in them so cardstock joining pieces can be added by players to have full 3d dungeon walls. That would look fantastic and it would be worthwhile even if we made and sourced the walls ourselves.
I might file grooves in the corners and door frames myself if it is practical, with all the awesome furniture this project includes I beleive it deserves to be taken to the next level by fans.
However the best news about the corners is what it says about Gamezone.
- It says they want to provide us with an excellent product, and will go extra distance to do so.
- It says they are still thinking on the aesthetics.
- It says they want satisfied backers.
A full thank you from me to Gamezone over my room corners.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Nice to see another different concept. I hope the torch will have some in-game effect beyond just being a weapon, I'd love to see pitch black rooms that need to be lit up to explore properly. Gives me a cool idea for a quest with the spiders actually.
Nice and all as it is to get something extra the addition of the wall corners are not necessary and are only further delaying a product that is already 4 months late with no real definitive delivery date yet. They need to focus on the core product get it done and get it shipped rather than adding further work. True they have an artistic vision and want it to be the best they can but they need to learn how to manage a project properly (and that includes communications).
It will get here when it gets here I'm not overly bothered by that but it needs to be reined in now.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/27 12:21:30
Alpharius wrote: Orlanth - are you friends with the Gamezone guys, or somehow involved with the company?
Why do you say this, because I am not being negative about them?
To answer you straight up: No I am not a shill, I dont speak Spanish for a start, never met them and while I have been a Gamezone customer in the past and been hapopy with what I bought I have spent a tiny fraction on them than I have with almost every other manufacturer I have purchased from.
I am happy with the project because I am enthusiastic about it. I wasn't this vocal in the past because the situation is changing.
- I have never seen a crowdfund project add more for free AFTERWARDS. A lot offer less.
- The miniatures are excellent, and those few things I didnt like I criticised, six legged spiders, bad pendulum model.
- We are now seeing more artwork, more miniatures and frankly more evidence that a backer will get a large number of 1st rate miniatures.
I am genuinely excited, like with most crowdfund games you take a risk, however this project is getting better and better, unlike so many.
I am not 100% fanboi though, I don't buy the late May delivery date for a second, I think Gamezone are naive when it comes to business practices, I still think the project has risks, especially for bakers outside the EU. I also wish that Gamezone had done their own game without any Heroquest baggage, and not least because I have never been a Heroquest fan.
However......
There is however an extra dynamic you probably haven't seen.
There is a LOT of hostility to this game elsewhere. Just turning up and being identified as a fan of this project will net you a crapton of verbal abuse on boardgamegeek.
Gamezone has accumulated a fair number of haterz because of this project, if someone doesnt like it, that is cool with me, and those who wish to dis this game here on Dakka will be listened to politely.
It is not like that elsewhere, I was shocked and very surprised at the level of blind hate I walked into for supporting this project. Here on Dakka we get fans and critics of games and it really is no skin off my nose if someone like a game I dislike or vice verse.
However elsewhere being a supporter of Gamezone makes you an accomplice of fraudsters, a moron, or a dupe, depending on who you speak to.
I signed up to boardgamegeek to do a deal with someone over Dungeon Saga, it was the only reason I had an account. But I decided to join the forum discussion and stand up and be counted on Heroquest while I was there.
Someone messaged me saying they hope Hasbro shut the game down and I lose my money. I am not a delicate type as you well know, but found that highly offensive, after all I have sunk 200 Euro in this. However decided I wasn't going to repond in kind, I was new there anyway. The pile on continued from various sources, and as I was brand new to the forums, all the attacks came from total stranger. This abuse went beyond the point where on any other forum I have visited the mods would have stepped in.
While I am no stranger to controversy, it normally takes a lot of button pushing to tip me over the edge, and I didn't go a fraction as far as I have done here, didnt bait anyone and the abuse was worse than I ever seen on Dakka, on any thread. Which is strange as I was brand new, and not identifiable as anyone from anywhere else (I didnt sign up as Orlanth or any of my usual monikers).
I was quite dumbfounded by what happened actually, and to a large extent was caught deer in headlights.
So I made a comment, I will quote it. "Please do not troll me".
For this I received an account ban, for accusing people of trolling.
I was incensed at that and doubly dumbfounded allowing for the quite impressive number and variety of open personal attacks I had received simply by being there.
There were a number of board members who warned openly me about the double standards at this time, but thought I would be safe being new.
Take this little gem, the last post I made:
<someone> wrote:
You guys need to remember that when a critic of Gamezone has their posts reported it is because they were insulting or offensive, but when a Gamezone backer has their post reported it is not because they were insulting, it is because we are trying to silence them.
Once you get past that, everything makes sense. I think. It is hard to keep track of all the shifting goalposts and double standards.
Except that there aren't double standards. I am being polite, as are most of those who are supporting Gamezone that I have so far encountered. There may well be others who are not, so I can't speak for everyone.
I am not in the least surprise that my posts are flagged and hidden, I support Gamezone, so because some hate that and don't like what I write they will assume subconsciously the post is some way hostile. Yet there is a frenzy of posts against us which cross the line. Many one liners posted for the sole reason of making insulting or offensive remarks. Which though clearly infringing get green thumbs up rather than warning reports. Again people wont think that through, but are riding a wave of a reaction to an opinion they don't like.
It is also part of human nature, herd mentality, to join in a pile on, and when in a herd people don't act as they normally would. So I try to understand those who succumb to this. I don't flag warning reports myself, it's not my way to call for censorship, only to ask to be replied to politely.
If roles were reversed and you fond yourself on the minority opinion then right or wrong you might experience this also. Its part of the ugly side to human nature.
From what I am learning about BGG it isn't a troll forum, we just get some heated topics, and as people are passionately divided on the topics concerned once a numerical concensus emerges this sort of behaviour is what happens. If I was on th majority opinion side I might not notice too much, and might find the one liner personal attacks funny due to shadenfreude.
I kid you not I got anotheraccount ban for the above post. For calling forum members a 'herd', taken from the above comment.
That was in fact the third ban I had accumulated, the first were for one and three days, so I was still about. All for very similar half wording, ban on technicality, while on the receiving a large number of open insults, threats and accusations, from people who during this process were consistently posting, and thus were not receiving any sanction.
I posted 37 posts and got three bans, and funnily enough had not once been impolite to anyone.
After that I had had formally had enough of boardgamegeek.
Though I had decided one ban earlier it was not for me.
This isn't the answer you are looking for Alpharius, and you probably wont want to make reply comment, but I am happy with Gamezones work, I am also happy with Dakka Dakka. Furthermore we are free to make comments as such, we have board members here who dont like the project, or were happy they didn't back it, or think it dodgy and I don't have a problem with any of them, neither has anyone else, this whole thread has gone through all the issues boardgamegeek has over this issue, just without the pile on.. As I explained to their head mod while leaving:
I have never in nearly twenty years on forums ever been close to being banned elsewhere, and we discuss politics and religion there, and it can get heated. It was a bit embarrassing at first to be honest, but I will lose no rest over it, as these judgements are now so ridiculous I can write the off as inconsequential.
Thank you for my time here. I have grown a new fondness for the decent and fair moderation on Dakka Dakka, and other places. Moderating I now see is a skill, I thought it would be easy to get right, just turn up and be fair. Maybe they just made it look easy. The total failure which was the moderation on this forum places all that in new perspective.
I am thoroughly unimpressed with how this was handled. I could try and complain higher up the chain of command, but why bother, I doubt anyone would learn from this. Better instead to just walk away.
On Dakka there is a large discussion on new Heroquest, some there have a low opinion of Gamezone. We acknowledged each others opinions and moved on. It could have been that easy.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/04/27 14:12:12
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Between your comments here and with G&G, you seem unusually positive and forgiving - and that's OK!
I must confess to knowing one G&G staff, and know of one more, but my 'positivity' there is for completely different reasons.
Namely in principle: kickstarter a chinese outsourced project = random delays >> more patience is required.
I would only back a chinese outsourced kicksrtarter if the amount of toys I get is very good for the price.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Heroquesters will like the added dimension of basic mooks with ranged attacks, so the softer characters can be targeted by a portion of the opponents.
I hope there are at least two ranged orcs, as this is orc with crossbow 01, I can expect orc with crossbow 02 to be out there. Though I have an orc army I love the sculpts and really would like to use these ones for rpg games.
Besides its difficult to get GW orcs with crossbows and I have a large unit of arrer boys which stand in for ranged mooks in D&D.
Ashitaka, your are probably far wiser than I for not stumbling into range of the abuse.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/28 13:22:02
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Really liking the Orc. Monsters with ranged weapons were one of the things that the original Heroquest lacked, so I'm glad that Gamezone are fixing that.
There should be 8 orc models, so I wouldn't be surprised for at least 2 of them to have bows. iirc, out of the 6 goblins, 2 are modelled with ranged weapons.
I didnt notice (or just as likely not remember) any ranged goblins. The gobbos were previewed early.
If two of six goblins have ranged weapons, perhaps three out of eight orcs. In would like that very much.
For level 3 backers there are two extra melee armed goblins, the sleepy guards, and for everyone there is a ninth orc, the orc boss who from the digital sculpts wields a great axe.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
They both had regular bows, one had a Robin Hood style hat and one of them was sticking its finger in the air like it was trying to gauge the wind. I really like all of the gobbo sculpts.
I don't remember anything about additional melee goblins, have we seen any models for them? I'm really looking forward to the sleeping guards though, they can open up a lot of other gameplay possibilities.
Gorechild wrote: They both had regular bows, one had a Robin Hood style hat and one of them was sticking its finger in the air like it was trying to gauge the wind. I really like all of the gobbo sculpts.
I don't remember anything about additional melee goblins, have we seen any models for them? I'm really looking forward to the sleeping guards though, they can open up a lot of other gameplay possibilities.
Looked back along the thread and I remember them now. Four spear goblins and two box goblins. The two sleey guards we have only seen artwork of, one was asleep using his axe as a pillow/leaning post. Agile sleepers those goblins.
There is also a goblin leader figure in the level 3 I had overlooked, whether its a fat gobbo on the throne or a miniature that can waddle about and do things remains to be seen.
All in all a nice selection of mooks for adventurers to wet their blades with
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Nice sculpt, but I wish the painting was not also a bas relief. It would be simpler and better to glue in a printout art than paint the head. Either a flat painting or a bas relief, or both in seperation.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
You showed a lot of character there Orlanth replying like that. My email would have been a lot less conscientious
I don't understand why people are so antagonistic towards what Gamezone are doing? Is it because of the legal implications? As far as I'm concerned, the guy who designed the original game (as well as Space Crusade - I forget his name) is the only person that the concept belongs to. Not the publisher of his work 25 years ago, not some idiot who happens to have the same name for his completely unrelated RPG. If that original creator came back and said "It's mine, what are you doing?" then fair enough, but he apparently disappeared off the radar years ago .. and if he presumably doesn't care if the game is re-made, why should we? The fact that the project made more than half a million Euros presumably shows that a lot of people think likewise.
Anyone, really appreciative of the guys who continue to bring news and videos here!
I don't understand why people are so antagonistic towards what Gamezone are doing? Is it because of the legal implications? As far as I'm concerned, the guy who designed the original game (as well as Space Crusade - I forget his name) is the only person that the concept belongs to. Not the publisher of his work 25 years ago, not some idiot who happens to have the same name for his completely unrelated RPG. If that original creator came back and said "It's mine, what are you doing?" then fair enough, but he apparently disappeared off the radar years ago .. and if he presumably doesn't care if the game is re-made, why should we? The fact that the project made more than half a million Euros presumably shows that a lot of people think likewise.
The legal arguments are very fluid. Some think they are black and white, but legal reality is not like that.
Unfortunately your quite reasonable point above is also inconsequential in law, its all about the paper rights, but it is also about enforcability.
The first thing to note,too often overlooked by detractors of the project is that Heroquest 25th is legally classifiable as a grey market good.
Heroquest is clearly grey market and thus legally distinct from black market goods as they have a legal point of origin. Had Gamezone directly copied the original game it would have been a black market good, in very different and much more shaky legal standing.
Grey market goods are NOT 'counterfeit' or 'fake' in US law (or elsewhere), no matter how some would like to think so. Though they can still be actionable, but at a must lower level of enforceability.
The bad news (for Gamezone and US backers).
- Moon Design owns the HeroQuest trademark in the US, and have gone on record saying they wont allow its use without approval from Hasbro. This is fine, fair and legal.
- Hasbro has been silent throughout and could take any form of action, if they do it will likely occur at release, partially for maximum effect. GW did that in the past with competitors, gave an amber light to a project (in fairness Hasbro has said nothing at all).
The good news.
- Gamezone might have made enough changes to enough component to have a legal loophole though copyright infringement, and hopefully also and trade dress infringement.
- Trademark infringement will be hard to defend outside the US, and is questionable (if risky inside). Inside the EU Gamezone owns some of the trademarks usable to this product, though I for one wish that the project came under a different name to begin with.
- Grey market goods are not of themselves illegal and the customs fines Moon Design scare US backers into thinking (see page 9 of this thread) they will get are highly unlikely, but not impossible, and thus still worrisome for US backers. Moon Designs spokesperson called the Gamezone Heroquest 'counterfeit', which is ignorant of the law. But threats don't need a legal basis to be scary to backers.
This last point is where a lot of people get stuck on the dogma that it is defacto 'fraud' or 'infringement'. This is not necessarily true, I dug up a document online on trademark infringement and imports by Harvard Law School (who presumably might know a tad more about the legal ins and outs than the average internet mob). Sadly I cannot find the document at this time but in overview the document claimed that in the case of grey market goods with questionable trademarks enforcibility is only normally made for major trademarks, of which Moon Design most certainly doesn't apply.
A company can call for enforcement and Moon Design has gone on record saying it will do so if goods are shipped however if it does so there enters a new problem. By doing so it has to give a legal enforcement date, which is problematic because Zanzanos backers have laid for their goods a priori.
As this is a crowdfund project the US backers, who are also end customers have already paid for the goods prior to any infringement, as you cant infringe on a product that has yet to be produced, backers are also innocent of wrongdoing especially as they bought the goods in Spain where the project is de facto legal. Thus in order to penalise crowdfund backers you would have to backdate a legal enforcement action to prior to the alleged offense, and in law you cannot judge someone on an infringement or even a crime that occurred before the offence became illegal.
Crowdfund projects are a legal nightmare in this way as enforcement messes with one of the most sacred rights of civic society, that the law cannot be backdated to penalise actions prior to when and offense was made.
i don't know how this will pan out, but the legal issue is certainly not cut and dried.
in conclusion for US backers
- Gamezone's Heroquest are definable as grey market goods with legal standing in the country of origin and are sufficiently distinctive to orginal Heroquest. Thus they are not 'counterfeit', or 'illegal' or 'fraudulent' I would even go as far as to say those are libelous terms.
- US imports might be interfered with my customs, this can certainly happen, but according to legal sources seisure is unlikely for grey market goods outside of cases of major copyrights. aka make a grey market good which is reminiscent of Coca Cola, expect customs to act, making a grey market good which is reminiscent of Heroquest isnt the same.
- Even if the goods are seized the goods owners can appeal, and the appeal generally takes into account the following
In the event of seizure and forfeiture, the importer retains its rights to contest the seizure and forfeiture, including the right to petition Customs for relief from the forfeiture. Petitions for Relief and/or lawsuits in the federal district court’s can raise important issues and challenge the basis for seizure by, among other issues, contesting whether the goods are, in fact, gray market goods, whether they differ in quality, whether there is likelihood of confusion, the legitimacy of the source, the authority under which the trademark was applied, and others.
Now for a Lanzanos backer, who is not a retailer the chance of confusion is not relevant, the backer knows what the goods are. The sources itself is legitimate as the goods were legally manufactured in Spain under Spanish law.
There is a good chance Heroquest will be a wave through, no matter what Moon Design says. Or they might never reach backers.
This doesn't take away months of anxiety of US backers due to Moon Design's threats. Were I a US resident I would not have backed this project, it's not worth the lost sleep.
EU backers don't have these worries, and are likely home and dry unless Hasbro makes a play, and even then it is likely we will be able to get our goods due to EU free borders. We purchased the game in Euros, from Spain, as EU citizens.
We can ship them anywhere we want in the EU and unless they are made of cannabis resin it is unlikely any objection is possible or likely.
If there are problems we can take a short holiday in Madrid and collect, or get a friend to ship them for us. If there are our personal goods making transit inside the EU, we are in the clear.
Anyone, really appreciative of the guys who continue to bring news and videos here!
Funnily enough, just before reading this I had written an email to FyD Forja y Desván TV.
Basically a thank you for the frequent videos and an opening of communications. With a link to this thread. The guy obviously has a direct track to Gamezone, and I think it might be good if we talk.
My main motive for doing this is the hope that they clean up some of the Engrish spelling like 'former tabern bouncer'.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2015/04/30 01:37:23
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
While I still believe a company shouldn't use another company's ideas and products to promote their without their permission, I'll add that, had Hasbro not let the HeroQuest trademark lapse, I'm sure we wouldn't have this problem. Ironically, Hasbro obtained a trademark on HeroQuest when Chaosium neglected to acquire the rights to it when designing their HeroQuest game. The designer, of course, being Greg Stafford, who would later become the founder of Issaries, who would trademark HeroQuest in the US when Hasbro let the name lapse. He would then later license the trademark to Moon Design. http://www.maranci.net/rqpast.htm
> Were I a US resident I would not have backed this project, it's not worth the lost sleep.
From my research on past Hasbro IP disputes, I'm not surprisingly come to the conclusion that litigation will take a long time, long enough for EU backers to receive their games. Based on Moon Design's previous actions, I think Moon Design will aggressively defend its US trademark, resulting in, or at least assisting in, seizure of US copies. Based on GZ's previous actions (US trademark contesting lapse) I doubt GZ will do much to assist US backers if their copies of HQ25 are seized. (Who knows, maybe US backers will get a voucher for non-HQ product.)
Eh,. I'm just happy that Monolith got their 3.3M...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/30 07:26:24
While I still believe a company shouldn't use another company's ideas and products to promote their without their permission,
For all my support of Gamezone, and distain for the tactics of Moon Design I cannot argue with that.
It made very little sense for Gamezone to make Heroquest.
First, there is a legal issue outside of Spain where GZ have the full trademark.
Second, its Heroquest, and Gamezone. Look at the miniatures, they are connossieurs quality, its not a boardgame, its a miniatures game, these sets while made of different coloured resin are only really of value to someone who wants to pay for pro sculpt resin gaming pieces, paint them etc. Heroquest on the other hand is a kids game, its a very basic dungeon bash with not a lot of depth to it, thoroughly shallow compared to say Descent and Dungeon Saga, and even Super Dungeon Explore, the latter while themed in a kids genre is an adult marketed game (or gamer dads with kids) also due to miniatures quality and the expectation to paint them.
IMHO Gamezone should have done their own game from the start, broadly comparable to Descent and Dungeon Saga, and a high end copy of those sorts of titles with an in depth ruleset.
Sneakily they could even have announced a copy of Heroquest, got everyones attention, 'failed' to get the license and say afterwards <shrug shoulders> "sorry, however we still have awesome minuiatures so we will make our own game". and make their new project straight away upon the publicity of the old.
I'll add that, had Hasbro not let the HeroQuest trademark lapse, I'm sure we wouldn't have this problem. Ironically, Hasbro obtained a trademark on HeroQuest when Chaosium neglected to acquire the rights to it when designing their HeroQuest game. The designer, of course, being Greg Stafford, who would later become the founder of Issaries, who would trademark HeroQuest in the US when Hasbro let the name lapse. He would then later license the trademark to Moon Design. http://www.maranci.net/rqpast.htm
I remember ads for Heroquest in old Runequest products. It was vapour and the trademark lapsed prior to implementation. Chaosium earned the word 'chaos' in their title, they made awesome stuff in the 80's but didnt get their act together as a business. Very sad really, RQ3 was a step down as it stepped up complexity and lost a lot of the feel Chaosium had built up, even today it is difficult to top the imagination and depth of quality of Chaosium's early works.
At what stage did Games Workshop get involved in Heroquest?
From my research on past Hasbro IP disputes, I'm not surprisingly come to the conclusion that litigation will take a long time, long enough for EU backers to receive their games.
Hasbro, if it acts will likely do so at the retail stage, details of infringement are clearer after production has concluded.
The suppliers I spoke to at Salute wont order in retail copies until after they see which way the wind is going.
Based on Moon Design's previous actions, I think Moon Design will aggressively defend its US trademark, resulting in, or at least assisting in, seizure of US copies.
From what I have seen of US law Heroquest being grey goods with a minor trademark are a natural wave through. Moon Design can make direct petition and thus force customs to act, but only by writing a formal legal letter, which is thus datestamped. Good shipped after that date can be targeted good prior cannot.
Gamezone can ship to backers prior to any formal release date, this is normal for crowdfund projects anyway and I hope they do this. I really hope Gamezone have enough good sense to have the backers copies in a Spanish postal service and timestamped as sent before a final completion is announced. Under those circumstances customs action in the US is minimised. Its still a bit scary for backers though.
Moon Design however do have a very good case against retail imports. I have never denied or contested this. Retail imports are a different dynamic as the objection by Moon Design would predate import and sale, the goods would for retail sale thus the argument of market confusion over trademarks (which Gamezone has already failed to stop) applies in full. Moon Design can make an adequate defense of its trademark by going after Gamezone and prohibiting retail import, while leaving backers alone. Backers due to the nature of involvement know they are not buying Moon Design Gloranthan products, and any backers pledge doesn't detract from Moon Design's income or hurt Moon Design in any way.
It is my opinion that Heroquest 25th Anniversary retail edition and subsequent copies will not be on sale in the US, if Hasbro makes a move they might not be on retail sale outside of Spain. Though the answer for Gamezone is to trade in the US under another name, they only need the Heroquest name during the set up stage, if customers know it, like it and want to buy it the name no longer matters.
Based on GZ's previous actions (US trademark contesting lapse) I doubt GZ will do much to assist US backers if their copies of HQ25 are seized. (Who knows, maybe US backers will get a voucher for non-HQ product.)
No they wont, but backers can appeal by themselves. Their chances of getting their goods are strong. First the goods have to be seized and the end recipient, notified. Then the recipient can appeal, and much of the mitigating circumstances work in their favour. Note the wording of the quote from the link:
In the event of seizure and forfeiture, the importer retains its rights to contest the seizure and forfeiture, including the right to petition Customs for relief from the forfeiture. Petitions for Relief and/or lawsuits in the federal district court’s can raise important issues and challenge the basis for seizure by, among other issues, contesting whether the goods are, in fact, gray market goods, whether they differ in quality, whether there is likelihood of confusion, the legitimacy of the source, the authority under which the trademark was applied, and others.
Most of the law is concerned with stuff like not-Nikes with the swish on back to front, points of formal dissimilarity with these goods are too distinct, especially with regards to a backer, who would be hard to apint as someone duped into thinking he was buying Moon Design items or old Heroquest. I cannot easily put odds to it, but if I arm twist myself I thing that US customs will more likely than not waive through Heroquest (this is assuming they notice it and read the infringement notice Moon Design or Hasbro puts out), and if seize there is a good enough chance the goods may be released. If the seizure is successfully challenged even once it ceases to be worth US customs time and the backers copies will remain a wave through.
This ignores any legal issue with time stamped infringement notices to US customs not matching up with Spanish shipping dates and resulting quagmire of rights violations. All in all I think US backers have better than even odds of getting their copies.
Even with all these issues in the favour of backers if you imagine the long wait all backers of this project have, and the usual anxiety of late products and the chance of a product or company failure common to all crowdfund projects; US backers have to multiply those anxieties x100. Things CAN go horribly wrong for them, customs might seize the goods and reject appeals. I cannot call this with any certainty. I have not forgiven Moon Design for the threats made, it was a dick move to place US backers under that type of mental pressure, most will have forked out $150 USD or more even for a simple level 1 and shipping and then face months and months of worry.
Moon Design should made their US trademark objection, then sat back and waited to have gone after Gamezone directly and target retail imports.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/04/30 11:31:18
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Makes sense, he shouldn't be helpless, or in the case of the assassin someone you might want to keep in irons 'for now'.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Pacific wrote: You showed a lot of character there Orlanth replying like that. My email would have been a lot less conscientious
I don't understand why people are so antagonistic towards what Gamezone are doing? Is it because of the legal implications? As far as I'm concerned, the guy who designed the original game (as well as Space Crusade - I forget his name) is the only person that the concept belongs to. Not the publisher of his work 25 years ago, not some idiot who happens to have the same name for his completely unrelated RPG. If that original creator came back and said "It's mine, what are you doing?" then fair enough, but he apparently disappeared off the radar years ago .. and if he presumably doesn't care if the game is re-made, why should we? The fact that the project made more than half a million Euros presumably shows that a lot of people think likewise.
As I understand it he's a senior division head at Hasbro now.
(and I recall from another thread he met with someone senior at GW recently - it was on the GW staffer's linked in or some business site. This lead to buyout rumours)
Also - I think it was in a BGG thread that Hasbro UK has renewed their Heroquest trademark.
Based on GZ's previous actions (US trademark contesting lapse) I doubt GZ will do much to assist US backers if their copies of HQ25 are seized. (Who knows, maybe US backers will get a voucher for non-HQ product.)
No they wont, but backers can appeal by themselves. Their chances of getting their goods are strong. First the goods have to be seized and the end recipient, notified. Then the recipient can appeal, and much of the mitigating circumstances work in their favour. Note the wording of the quote from the link:
In the event of seizure and forfeiture, the importer retains its rights to contest the seizure and forfeiture, including the right to petition Customs for relief from the forfeiture. Petitions for Relief and/or lawsuits in the federal district court’s can raise important issues and challenge the basis for seizure by, among other issues, contesting whether the goods are, in fact, gray market goods, whether they differ in quality, whether there is likelihood of confusion, the legitimacy of the source, the authority under which the trademark was applied, and others.
Most of the law is concerned with stuff like not-Nikes with the swish on back to front, points of formal dissimilarity with these goods are too distinct, especially with regards to a backer, who would be hard to apint as someone duped into thinking he was buying Moon Design items or old Heroquest. I cannot easily put odds to it, but if I arm twist myself I thing that US customs will more likely than not waive through Heroquest (this is assuming they notice it and read the infringement notice Moon Design or Hasbro puts out), and if seize there is a good enough chance the goods may be released. If the seizure is successfully challenged even once it ceases to be worth US customs time and the backers copies will remain a wave through. This ignores any legal issue with time stamped infringement notices to US customs not matching up with Spanish shipping dates and resulting quagmire of rights violations. All in all I think US backers have better than even odds of getting their copies.
Even with all these issues in the favour of backers if you imagine the long wait all backers of this project have, and the usual anxiety of late products and the chance of a product or company failure common to all crowdfund projects; US backers have to multiply those anxieties x100. Things CAN go horribly wrong for them, customs might seize the goods and reject appeals. I cannot call this with any certainty. I have not forgiven Moon Design for the threats made, it was a dick move to place US backers under that type of mental pressure, most will have forked out $150 USD or more even for a simple level 1 and shipping and then face months and months of worry. Moon Design should made their US trademark objection, then sat back and waited to have gone after Gamezone directly and target retail imports.
Greg Stafford's companies have been hit by IP issues, so I'm not surprised that his companies are more aggressive at enforcing their IP than Hasbro. Also, US IP law is very murky -- sometimes you *must* attempt to enforce your IP or you will lose it. Lawyers will interpret law differently, so one company may act on the advice on one lawyer and act one way, and another on another lawyer and act another.
Well, if the sales are stopped it will be a dreadful shame.
And who will benefit? Not the masses of gamers that are looking forward to this release that's for sure, the only winners will be the solicitors (as per normal) and the little guy from Moon Design that has the chip on his shoulder.
Pacific wrote: You showed a lot of character there Orlanth replying like that. My email would have been a lot less conscientious
I don't understand why people are so antagonistic towards what Gamezone are doing? Is it because of the legal implications? As far as I'm concerned, the guy who designed the original game (as well as Space Crusade - I forget his name) is the only person that the concept belongs to. Not the publisher of his work 25 years ago, not some idiot who happens to have the same name for his completely unrelated RPG. If that original creator came back and said "It's mine, what are you doing?" then fair enough, but he apparently disappeared off the radar years ago .. and if he presumably doesn't care if the game is re-made, why should we? The fact that the project made more than half a million Euros presumably shows that a lot of people think likewise.
As I understand it he's a senior division head at Hasbro now.
(and I recall from another thread he met with someone senior at GW recently - it was on the GW staffer's linked in or some business site. This lead to buyout rumours)
Ah, I didn't realise that! Take back everything I said now then.
I had been told years ago that the designer lost interest with games design and hadn't been heard of for years. Obviously I was told a turkey!
Greg Stafford's companies have been hit by IP issues, so I'm not surprised that his companies are more aggressive at enforcing their IP than Hasbro.
Interesting, I am curious as to what and where Greg Stafford's IP is pretty much unique, it copies very little and brings much that is new. A rare man.
Also, US IP law is very murky -- sometimes you *must* attempt to enforce your IP or you will lose it.
A truth of US IP law I hate, its pure lawyer bait. I read ther above as: If someone infringes you have to hire one of the boys at $50/hour to defend yourself, for each and every occasion.
Lawyers will interpret law differently, so one company may act on the advice on one lawyer and act one way, and another on another lawyer and act another.
The legal d6 keeps on rolling. The only thing certain is that its costly to take a shot.
See what I mean by US backers get x100 worry of an EU crowdfund backer. And why I couldn't mentally afford to buy into this project if I were a US resident.
Pacific wrote: Well, if the sales are stopped it will be a dreadful shame.
And who will benefit? Not the masses of gamers that are looking forward to this release that's for sure, the only winners will be the solicitors (as per normal) and the little guy from Moon Design that has the chip on his shoulder.
Beautiful product, beautiful miniatures, designed to bring joy to gamers. This sort of nastiness should not be in the hobby.
Ah, I didn't realise that! Take back everything I said now then.
I had been told years ago that the designer lost interest with games design and hadn't been heard of for years. Obviously I was told a turkey!
Not necessarily. As a senior suit for Hasbro on what is likely to be a very high salary making games might not mean much to him anymore. He has the mighty percentage to think about.
Still Hasbro has of yet refused to make comments on the case, they are the big player in the game, and I can make no calls on how they will react.
I am keeping in mind I might have to collect my own Heroquest boxes (I ordered two Level 3 pledges) from Madrid. I will turn it into a holiday.
I am 99.9% certain even Habro can't stop a Spanish sale in Spain. And once the items are my personal property in the EU I can transport them within the EU.
It might come to this, damn well hope not though.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Painted skeleton miniature
Get a better look at the detail.
I want to see the mummy miniatures painted. I really don't like the look of the mummies for the game, perhaps because I am used to the thick set traditional Boris Karloff style mummy. But a lot
of that could be because I cant read the detail of the miniature, seeing one painted could give a better idea.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/04/30 23:21:18
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
