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 Nevelon wrote:

dadakkaest wrote:
Make it's act of faith that it ignores all damage other than penetrating hit/explodes results until the beginning of the next game turn.

Do they have an AoF? If so, what is it? I thought that the kind of people that ended up strapped to these things had some lack of faith issues...

They don't have an AoF, no. Suggesting giving Penitent Engines an AoF shows nothing but a remarkable lack of knowledge about the subject at hand.

Maybe their rules are a mechanical interpretation of the models incredibly stupidly weak ankle joins..........their AV is because as they rock back from the impact, their feet snap off and they flounder.

1. Funny

AegisGrimm wrote:Maybe their rules are a mechanical interpretation of the models incredibly stupidly weak ankle joins..........their AV is because as they rock back from the impact, their feet snap off and they flounder.

Ha! "Option: Better model: +50 points & +50£.


2. Metal

Ovion wrote:Ok, as promised, I'll post the Homebrew Penitent Engine related stuff I've done here, to give people ideas ....

The idea of a PE character is pretty awesome.

Valeriya's four armed Penitent Engine bears an Iron Maiden style tomb encasing the front, protecting her from a merciful death.....

Ok, that's a pretty fething metal way to justify an uparmored & non-open topped Pengine.

Ovion wrote: she allows you to bring 2 squads of Peni's as troops, freeing up those Heavy Slots....

Scoring Penitent Engines seems... out of character. They seem a tad crazed to hold objectives. How about making them available as both Elites and Heavy Support, the way a Master of the Forge does for Marine Dreadnoughts?


3. Acts of Faith?

Nevelon wrote:

dadakkaest wrote:
Make it's act of faith that it ignores all damage other than penetrating hit/explodes results until the beginning of the next game turn.

Do they have an AoF? If so, what is it? I thought that the kind of people that ended up strapped to these things had some lack of faith issues...

Yeah, Nevelon (and Furyou) are right here, an AOF would be out of character -- it's fluffed as requiring extraordinary purity and focus: You have to be impure to be put in a Penitent Engine (barring a gross miscarriage of justice, which in the imperium of course NEVER HAPPENS), and once you're in the perpetual torture engine I think focusing is kinda hard too.


4. Speed Kills

MWHistorian wrote:It needs to get into combat faster and needs a higher initiative. When a crazed buzzsaw wielding death machine can't survive long enough to actually attack a squad of tacticals, something is wrong.

SisterSydney wrote:Fleet is good. Then moves like Cavalry or Agile. Don't have my BRB handy so I can't give exact inches those two options would give...

Ok, now I have all my references in a row, although I haven't worked out the math of what Fleet does for average charge distance.

Current Pengine moves as Infantry: 6" base, plus 1d6" Run or 2d6" Charge =
move & run range 7-12", averaging 10"
charge threat range 8-18", averaging 15"

Agile: 6" base plus Run twice for 2d6" or 2d6 charge =
move & run range 8-18", averaging 13"
(or change run & shoot in same phase)
charge threat threat 8-18", averaging 13"

Cavalry: 12" base, plus 1d6" Run or 2d6" Charge, rerollable with Fleet =
move & run range 13-18", averaging 16
(plus treats Difficult Terrain as Dangerous, means it can move faster than infantry but risks immobilizing itself)
charge threat range 14"-24", averaging, um, with Fleet, somewhere north of 19"

Moving as Cavalry does the most for the Penitent Engine, I think, and in the fluffiest way, upping base move and thus charge threat range rather than leaving charge threat unchanged while allowing either a superfast run or a normal run, reducing your frenzy voluntarily (what? not for PE) for shooting.
Cavalry movement also adds a nice weakness in that, in its frenzied haste, the thing may break a leg (which as Aegis Grimm points out, the model may do anyway).

Ovi's Troops Penitents aren't Scoring, because they're still Vehicles. Vehicles can't Score unless the mission specifically states they do.

Awash, right, forgot that.

Yeah, what Miko said.
Unless given a specific rule making them so, they aren't scoring.

And Elites and Heavies get extra Penitents anyway.

Once I'm done, there'll be 5 Flavours of Penitent Engine, and the ability to take 1 in each slot type.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So next, Penitent Defenders:CostingTotal: 100

Not much to these ones. Elite slot Penitents with some Heavy Bolters strapped on, because it makes sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And Penitent Defender Zeniths:CostingTotal: 140

This one is a Defender, but boasts 4 Skyspear Missiles without Savant Lock to provide some relatively reliable (effectively BS3), AA (Average pen result of 14, with +1 to damage).
in return, it can't move when firing at these, as Penitents aren't smart enough at this point, so software says STAND HERE AND SHOOT THAT.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And Penitent AvengersCostingTotal: 100
Penitent Engine with Jump Pack.
Replaces each HF with flamer, and 2 Bolters.

Holy feth. Those things are nasty... except for BS:2 being a bummer for all those heavy bolters.

A bit of confusion in the AA Pengine entry whether it's called Zenith, Thunderer, or Hyperion.

And what's the "skyborne" SR on the Jump Pennies?

Fixing eet! : D

Ok, that's because the relatively old version I found as a base, was the prototype which went through 3-4 different names..

Also - Skyborne is what lets Jump and Jet units ignore terrain and just go over it, rather than round it when they move.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And lastly, a Repentant Canoness, but who has an ability to improve the Penitent Engines lot:Costing:Total: 175
She makes Repentia troops, but also gives the option of taking 1 Penitent Engine per squad of Repentia.

And all the updated units are here.

Ehh....

Not sure I like the idea of a PEngine Canoness, especially as most of the people in a PEngine are simply heretics, not SoB-until-recently (that's what Repentia squads are for). The *only* thing I can see the iron-maiden woman being is a Canoness who, spontaneously late in life, exhibited psychic ability.

Abhor the Witch, as the saying goes.

Also... guns on a PEngine sound like a terrible idea. I mean, flamers are pretty stupid, too, but if you stay out of the reach of it, you won't get accidentally hosed with flames during its pain-maddened freakout.

Heavy Bolters, though, shoot for hundreds of meters. Putting these on something that is hopped up on pain-inducing, rage-causing mood shifts and then just throwing it out there in a battle, where your own forces are also fighting, seems like a good way to have a whole lot of "friendly"-fire incidents. Just doesn't seem fluffy to me.

The Damned Order Penitent is an entire Sisters Order that has fallen.
I'm still debating allowing non-penitent units in the force.

An entire order of Repentia, that have been determined irredeemable in life, their only option to keep fighting till dead.
And the one who gave the order that damned them was Valeriya.
She gets to suffer a long time.

But the whole army is basically one big suicide mission, constantly topped up with the ones that the Ecclesiarchy don't think will make it to redeem themselves for service.

The Contritioness' are the leaders of the former order and/or Canoness' that have fallen and been placed there.

The Heavy Bolters are basically like auto-fire on fortifications - computer controlled, with some vague targetting priority from the 'pilot'.

Additionally, their fervour is for redemption, so they'll avoid hitting allies where possible.

Eh...

I'm... not real keen on an entire Order that somehow falls. That's, like, one step away from Chaos Sisters.

Well, "fallen" by the strict standards of the Ecclesiarchy and the Sisterhood -- not necessarily anywhere near "fallen to Chaos."

I like the idea of an entire massive formation of frothing lunatics with chainsaws. But then I'd like to see someone's idea for Chaos Sisters too. And I think it's quite plausible that the Imperium of Man isn't really 10,000 years old. So I kind of roll with the heretics all night and day, baby.

Chaos Sisters?

If we are to take C:CSM as GW wrote it as our cue, then just remove Adamantiumn Will, Shield of Faith and Acts of Faith, and make them 1 pt cheaper.

Seems like a flavourful army...

I hate Ovion's fluff with a passion and can only justify it by saying that Valeriya is the one who said that her order was fallen from grace, and that it was because they failed to protect something important rather than because of anything they actually did.

I had the same arguments about the heavy bolters. >> but i figure that they stick them at the front and the only things they can shoot are the enemy, or engines with side armour 11.

The AA missiles I have more trouble with.

Just to keep us more or less on topic (ha!), let's suggest changes to Ovion's "fallen Order" fluff in Ovion's thread about that and keep this thread for discussing variants and upgrades for Penitent Engines.

For the PEngine specifically, give it the Cavalry movement rules, and maybe Jink, to reference its clumsy, staggering gait, and that should do it, really.

It's still a fairly fragile machine, but played right, you could get it up in someone's grill and show them why it is a tactical blunder to fail to protect one's neck.

Or, to give a single concise answer to the OP's question:

We fix walkers.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

They don't have an AoF, no. Suggesting giving Penitent Engines an AoF shows nothing but a remarkable lack of knowledge about the subject at hand.

You're a gakker.

What is needed is a special ability. Which allows them to get into combat. And can fail on a random dice roll.

Pick a stat for a test. Initiative would do fine. That's 50% chance.

It's really not that difficult.

Also make them elites.

Errr, let's not call each other bad things... we're imagining a grimdark world of constant conflict, not inhabiting one. (Yes, I know, online it can be hard to tell....).

Setting that aside, the idea of a random ability to get them into combat, as opposed to just improving their Move and/or Charge, is an interesting one.

It would fit with the earlier fluff at least. Penitent Engines in 5th used to have a special rule that they would charge straight toward the closest enemy model D6+6. And would always get into close combat if able.

As Heavy support they're taking up an Exorcist slot. Which is reason enough to leave them on the shelf until the next sisters update sometime around Q1, 2025.

They need to be hit harder, get generally better stats, move faster, and have a stronger punch.

If they had a nice set of special rules, it might balance them out.
Maybe...
Scout (To represent their mad charge before the battle even begins)
Fleet (Once again, a mad charge to the enemy)
+1 or 2 Initiative
Move Through Cover (After all, nothing is going to realistically stop a giant metal machine with chainsaw hands from crashing through it)
And, to top it all off, they should get their old Rampage rules back. +1 Attack for every successful wound. (You don't get bonus bonus attacks, though.)

All of that, and a 15-20 point price drop, and I'd *Maybe* consider taking them. They'd still be really fragile, but they'd at least have a chance of getting into Close Combat and hurting something once they get there. Even then, they wouldn't be an auto-include (Or even a great choice) because they're competing with Exorcists and Retributors, and they're still ridiculously easy to kill.

They're not going to get a price drop though.

They're already cheap for what they are (to the tune of 24% cheaper than equivalent units).
Adding 75-85pts of rules AND making them cheaper is crazy.

By your logic, it should be a 60pt, WS4, Str10, AV11/11/10 opentopped walker, with Scout, Fleet, I5, Move Through Cover, 2 Heavy Flamers, AP2 CCWs and generates bonus attacks for every wound it makes.

That loadout should be around the 150pt mark (and that's including the discount), not 60 (or, roughly a third of what that would be worth).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Giving it just Scouts and calling it 90pts would be a reasonable solution though.

And I may try that.

 Ovion wrote:
They're not going to get a price drop though.

They're already cheap for what they are (to the tune of 24% cheaper than equivalent units).
Adding 75-85pts of rules AND making them cheaper is crazy.

By your logic, it should be a 60pt, WS4, Str10, AV11/11/10 opentopped walker, with Scout, Fleet, I5, Move Through Cover, 2 Heavy Flamers, AP2 CCWs and generates bonus attacks for every wound it makes.

That loadout should be around the 150pt mark (and that's including the discount), not 60 (or, roughly a third of what that would be worth).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Giving it just Scouts and calling it 90pts would be a reasonable solution though.

And I may try that.

Have you tried PLAYING with Penitent Engines? As they are, they never, ever, ever get into Close Combat unless you are playing against an idiot. A squad of 3 against an equal points value of Lootas, for example, will lose their entire squad in a single average shooting phase. Scout won't change that, because they'll still have to take a few hits. 4 Missile Launchers from a Devistator Squad will kill 1 a turn, a Meltagun kills one 2/3rds of the time that it hits, and even in Close Combat, where they're supposed to excel, a squad of 10 Space Marines have a very good chance to kill one before it gets a chance to fight back. Space Marines. IE the guys who are pretty much crap in Close Combat. Against Eldar or Tau they're even worse. Against Nids, a Flyrant will kill 2-3 in one turn of shooting (12 BS4 Twin-Linked S6 shots against rear armor), for slightly less points than 3 of them. They're so fragile they never, ever do anything, and they cost enough to make them horrendous.
Plus, even once they get into Close Combat, their ideal situation, on a charge they'll only get about 4 Wounds. That's the ideal circumstance. Heavy flamers depend on the target, but will probably add 3-4 more wounds on average. (Against light infantry you'll get more, but then you're using him to kill some of the cheapest models on the board.)

And none of the suggestions I made would actually fix their fragility. I don't want Penitent Engines to be indestructible. What I do want, though, is for them to have a chance to hurt something once they get across the board, and to have a chance to get across the board. Even with massive damage output, their platform is so fragile that it won't matter anyways.

In other words, FETH YES I think it should be a 60pt, WS4, Str10, AV11/11/10 opentopped walker, with Scout, Fleet, I5, Move Through Cover, 2 Heavy Flamers, AP2 CCWs who generates bonus attacks when it causes wounds. (Note that it only gets bonus attacks off of its base stat, not infinite. Just like the rule it had back in the White Dwarf codex.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just for fun, I chose the oldest codex (And the one with the least anti-armor) and decided to see how many units it has that could very, very easily take out Penitent Engines.

From Orks, we get:
Ghazkull Thraka. No matter who gets the charge, he'll take maybe one wound (2 at the most) and kill them all.
Lootas. 15 of them will either wipe out, or nearly wipe out 3 Penitent engines in one turn of shooting.
Tankbustas. Finally! A unit Tankbustas are good against!
Ork Boys. Sure, the Ork Boys themselves can't hurt the Penitent Engines, but the Engines can only kill maybe 7-8 a turn in Close Combat and the Nob with a Power Klaw will kill one Penitent Engine every time he gets to swing.
Dakkajets and Warbuggies. They can reliably kill one a turn, and the Penitent Engines will never get close enough to hit back.
Warbikers. 30 S5 twin-linked shots to the rear armor will Vaporise the penitent engines, who once again are too slow to ever get into assault.
Battlewagons: The Deff Rolla will crush them, if the S7 Large Blast doesn't.
Deff Dreads: Hey look, significantly better walkers!
Killa Kans: Hey look, walkers with similar damage output for half the points!
Looted Wagons: The S7 Large Blast from earlier was bad? For 3 Penitent Engines, 2 Looted Wagons can bring 2 S8 ones.
Big Guns: Cheap, and they will blast apart Penitent Engines before they can get into combat.

(EDIT: I did my math wrong a bit on this. Deff Dreads aren't significantly better, they just get +1 Armor point and a lot more options in exchange for 1 Initiative. They're the same points cost, though, so Dreads are still a much better option. Also, I forgot to mention that you could get 2 Battlewagons with Deff Rollas instead of 1 with a Killkannon, which is probably the better option for killing Penitent engines.)

That's just Orks. Care to try this against a good, recent army? Maybe Eldar?

Yes, I have used them.
My planned 'regular' Army List will see 9 Penitent Engines, and my Homebrew force will include some 40 engines.

I don't really care for much of the 'regular' Sisters stuff tbh, mostly just Penitent units.

But things still need to be costed appropriately.

You're proposing giving it the equivalent of a 21" charge turn 1, that strikes at I5, with 6 attacks at Str10, AP2, and is likely going to generate at least 2 bonus attacks.

For 60pts.

The equivalent speed and number of attacks, (but with Str4 AP2 attacks and T3) would be say... 3 Incubi in a Venom for 131pts.

Or... I can't actually think of anything else that would strike at I5 with an AP2 weapon, at any strength.

Even a Death Company Dread (roughly equivalent base rules, with +1 FA/SA) with Blood Talons is Str6... and AP3, and 6 attacks on the charge at I4... and is 125pts base

So +2 armour, +1I, +1WS, +2BS, effectively -4S, no Shield of Faith +45pts over the Penitent Engine.

At 60pts PE's still aren't worth it. That's 60pts of a CC unit that will not see CC or if by a miracle it does, will die before it gets to strike.

Literally a squad of penal legion is better.

 Ovion wrote:
Yes, I have used them.
My planned 'regular' Army List will see 9 Penitent Engines, and my Homebrew force will include some 40 engines.

I don't really care for much of the 'regular' Sisters stuff tbh, mostly just Penitent units.

But things still need to be costed appropriately.

You're proposing giving it the equivalent of a 21" charge turn 1, that strikes at I5, with 6 attacks at Str10, AP2, and is likely going to generate at least 2 bonus attacks.

For 60pts.

The equivalent speed and number of attacks, (but with Str4 AP2 attacks and T3) would be say... 3 Incubi in a Venom for 131pts.

Or... I can't actually think of anything else that would strike at I5 with an AP2 weapon, at any strength.

Even a Death Company Dread (roughly equivalent base rules, with +1 FA/SA) with Blood Talons is Str6... and AP3, and 6 attacks on the charge at I4... and is 125pts base

So +2 armour, +1I, +1WS, +2BS, effectively -4S, no Shield of Faith +45pts over the Penitent Engine.

The Death Company Dread is also not Dreadfully easy to kill. (Pardon the pun) Penitent Engines only get that 21" charge if you go second. (You can't charge after scouting if you go first.) In that one turn, any half-competent player will destroy it. 11/11/10 Open-topped will get you killed instantly, even with open-topped.

Even under ideal circumstances, they will cause maybe 3 wounds. (If, as you say, it generates 2 bonus attacks, that means about 3 wounds.)

Currently, Penitent Engines die quickly, have no chance of getting to enemy lines, and cause no damage once they get there, and will take out a chunk of your army that would have been much better spent elsewhere.

My suggested Penitent Engines still die quickly, but they have half a chance at getting into combat and causing some wounds. (Not a lot of wounds, though. A few.) Even bad players just have to point and shoot to stop them.

(Also, in my original suggestion I said '15 or 20 points cheaper' and 'Plus 1 or 2 initiative.' In both cases, you've taken the more powerful of the two and then complained about them being too much. How come in your rant you don't say that I am suggesting 65 point models? Or with I4?)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You could give Penitent Engines a billion S10 Armorbane Fleshbane Attacks at I10 and WS10 with rerolls to hit and wound, but they still wouldn't be that great because THEY WILL NEVER GET TO COMBAT.

65pts I4 is still +75pts of rules, for -15pts.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Just for fun, I chose the oldest codex (And the one with the least anti-armor) and decided to see how many units it has that could very, very easily take out Penitent Engines.

From Orks, we get:
Ghazkull Thraka. No matter who gets the charge, he'll take maybe one wound (2 at the most) and kill them all.
Lootas. 15 of them will either wipe out, or nearly wipe out 3 Penitent engines in one turn of shooting.
Tankbustas. Finally! A unit Tankbustas are good against!
Ork Boys. Sure, the Ork Boys themselves can't hurt the Penitent Engines, but the Engines can only kill maybe 7-8 a turn in Close Combat and the Nob with a Power Klaw will kill one Penitent Engine every time he gets to swing.
Dakkajets and Warbuggies. They can reliably kill one a turn, and the Penitent Engines will never get close enough to hit back.
Warbikers. 30 S5 twin-linked shots to the rear armor will Vaporise the penitent engines, who once again are too slow to ever get into assault.
Battlewagons: The Deff Rolla will crush them, if the S7 Large Blast doesn't.
Deff Dreads: Hey look, significantly better walkers!
Killa Kans: Hey look, walkers with similar damage output for half the points!
Looted Wagons: The S7 Large Blast from earlier was bad? For 3 Penitent Engines, 2 Looted Wagons can bring 2 S8 ones.
Big Guns: Cheap, and they will blast apart Penitent Engines before they can get into combat.

(EDIT: I did my math wrong a bit on this. Deff Dreads aren't significantly better, they just get +1 Armor point and a lot more options in exchange for 1 Initiative. They're the same points cost, though, so Dreads are still a much better option. Also, I forgot to mention that you could get 2 Battlewagons with Deff Rollas instead of 1 with a Killkannon, which is probably the better option for killing Penitent engines.)

That's just Orks. Care to try this against a good, recent army? Maybe Eldar?

Thraka is T5 with a 2+/5+* save and 4 wounds.
He strikes at I4, with 5 Str5 attacks. (7 charging)
He's 225pts, so that's 2.5 Penitent Engines. We'll call it 2, 180pts of Engine.

So that's a total of 3.3 hits, and 0.45 glances when being charged,
or 4.6 hits, and 0.65 glances when charging.

In return, 2 Penitent Engines will deal 2.2 wounds when being charged, 3.3 charging.
3 Engines will cause 3.3 charged, 4.95 charging.

Big Shoota will cause .16 glances when shooting, and 0.08 when overwatching.


3 Penitent Engines worth of Lootas (16), will do an average of 32 shots, 10.6 hits, 2.9 pens and 1.5 glances.
So 4.4 HP damage and 0.96 explodes, or 1.5 to 2 dead Penitent Engines.

Of course if the Penitent(s) do make it to combat with the Lootas, they can't hurt it.

16 Tankbustas shooting at Penitents will cause 2.2 pens, .76 glances.
so 2.96 HP, 0.73 explodes. Probably kill 1 to 1.5 Penitents.

16 Tankbustas being charged by Penitents, will take 7.5 wounds, or charging will take 5.
In return the remaining (11 / 8) Tankbustas will do 4.58 / 3.3 pens, and 1.5 / 1.1 explodes.
The explodes in return will probably kill 3 / 2.2.
Left... 1 Penitent, 8 / 6 Tankbustas.


I... really can't be bothered to properly math the rest...
But the Deff Dredd with 2 Heavy Flamers is +2 AV, not open topped, no SoF, no immunity to Stun/Shake, no Rage, and I2, for 85pts.

But at the end of the day, when I've used my Penitent Engines, they've made it to combat, and killed stuff.
A unit of 3 can generally pretty reliably be pointed at something and kill it, then die.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Have you tried PLAYING with Penitent Engines? As they are, they never, ever, ever get into Close Combat unless you are playing against an idiot....

Or someone who has better things to shoot at, like your Scouting four-melta Dominion squads or Retributors full of Repentia or allied Leman Russ..... Arguably, your Penitent Engines have done their jobs if they die before getting into combat if in doing so they keep something worth more points alive.

Ovion: Your math on Ghazkull Thraka is dead wrong. First off, when Ghazkull WAAAGH!s he gets a 2++ invuln for two full player turns. Second, he has a Power Klaw. He strikes at I1, with S10 AP2. 3.3 hits (when being charged, which he won't be because he's got fleet during his WAAAGH! means about 3 Pens. 2 Pens and a glance, if he's unlucky. And with AP2 against open-topped, these pens kill on a 4+. If he charges, that's 3 Pens and a glance.

The rest of your math is good, but a Penitent won't be getting into charge range with Lootas without taking 3-4 turns of shooting, and they won't get into Tankbusta range without 2-3 turns of shooting. (Also, bear in mind that Lootas and Tankbustas cause 50% of their normal damage when they fire overwatch, since their BS is only at -1 when they fire snap shots. That, and Tankbustas can move backwards and fire as quickly as Penitent engines can move forward and die.


I can't speak for your games, of course, but if your opponent has managed to get assaulted by Penitent Engines, that's the fault of those players, not a sign of a good unit.


SisterSydney...
Spending 80 points for a distraction squad isn't bad, except a single Penitent Engine has no damage output and hardly warrants any fire to be sent at it before it dies. Meanwhile, if you want a threatening enough unit to actually draw fire, you've got to spend 160-240 points, at which point why aren't you just bringing a couple Exorcists or a couple squads of Seraphim (Or more of the Dominions and Retributors.) When, for the cost of the distraction squad, you could buy another one of the squad you're trying to protect (Which, incidentally, is more durable) then you shouldn't be buying the distraction squad.

 SisterSydney wrote:
Retributors full of Repentia

*breaks*