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 wuestenfux wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 Jackal wrote:
Thank you very much
So lance works as normal too, which is pretty sweet.

I can see the use of sweep attacks from a CCB coming into this now.
S7 + 2D6 armour pen on 3 attacks should atleast take down 1 HP minimum.

May also roll out the pask vanquisher and his 2 friends with my guard.
Not had to use those since people spammed mss land raiders in my area.
Granted they wont kill it in 1 turn, but they should strip HP pretty well.


Ill be honest, i rather fight one of these than its equal points in riptides.
The rules seem pretty solid from what ive seen.
Good enough to use, but not broken good.

The concern most people have now is what happens when it dies. Three tier explosion ring. Center is Str D, Inner and Outer rings vary depending on rolls. So this thing runs headlong at you lobbing melta or battle cannon shells. If you don't kill it, it starts stomping and chopping MCs and tanks while shelling hordes. If you do, it goes supernova, obliterating a measure of units that way. So unless you kill it a mile from your army, bad things happen.

Well, I doubt that you can kill it from far.
With the right facing of the iron shield, the effort will be huge.
How many long range weapons do you have to strip off hull points from an AV13 walker?

Well, to be honest. That thing is really tough to deal with using the regular codex. A Pylon equipped with a Gauss Exterminator should do the trick though. Outside of using escalation units that thing is really hard to take down, and if you are using escalation units it suddenly is not very impressive.

Edit: I wonder if getting several Stormteks would do the trick. Putting them in Night Scythes might work, but 2 or 4 in Ghost Arks might work better since you can deploy them from the beginning and you will not have to risk dropping them in unsafe locations.

There is a somewhat strange estimation of the damage output of a knight against a 10 man unit. The knight should on the charge average do 1 Str10 HoW, 2 StrD hits, and the stomp should get 2-3 models per marker as the models should be able to string out in b2b with the knight (average 5 AP4 wounds). If we remove the outlyers (rolling a 1 and 6) then you are looking at 6 wounds you get to make saves against and 2 you do not. Against a 10 man TAC squad that is 4 dead SM on average and even against an IG IS you would really have to mess up your model positioning to get a wiped squad. Which is both great as you will want the unit to break and run so you can shoot the thing in your turn.

Wait. Are people actually saying that two AV13 vehicles with a 4+ save are impossible to take down at range? That is essentially what a knight is, two vindicators with 4+ saves.

All of the dexs I play as have an answer. The interesting thing about this is that they have been seen less on the tables recently due to the trend toward infantry lists. Though most of the panic over killing an AV13 vehicle at range is that people expect a unit for less points than the target to kill it in a single turn...how could that possibly be balanced? My general rule is that to kill something in a single turn usually will cost 2-3x its price. Seeing as how very few units in the dexs are 375 pts or more then it should be expected that some combination of them is necessary to do the job. It also should be expected that being able to essentially table a 3 knight list in 2 turns would also not be balanced. This means to not allow the knights into melee range of your "army" you need to look at the important units in your list as your "army" and put out speed bumps to block the knight's movement. Speed bumps are ideally units who will flee from 1 round of combat with a knight but could be reused with an order or by being a SM.

+IG: Manticores, Medusa w/breachers, demoslishers, lascannon spam (vendettas most likely), pask vanquisher, etc.
+DE: Dark lances and more dark lances with perhaps some haywire scourges
+CWE: Bright Lances, perhaps someone will actually bring a battery of D cannons now?, crimson hunter, wraithknight standing in cover, DS spiders, 2 serpents on entirely different sides of the knights
+Tau: missile sides with tank hunter and drones will brutalize these things. A full unit will kill an average if 1 knight a turn with the 4+ invulnerable
+SM: dev cents w/ tank hunter, combi sternguard, devs, stormraven MM, predators, vindicators
+CSM: Oblits, las preds, eye of haywire, termicide (doesn't matter if they die)
+GK: dakka dreads, MM stormravens, psycannons, proper positioning and nemesis hammers+Hammer Hand paladins (2.7 dead paladins is acceptable for a dead IK if it comes to it), monkeys!

+Chaos Daemons: These are the hardest ones. Either you play with escalation and stronghold assault and you have access to icarus quad las vengeance battery or a daemon lord or you are playing a SH without similar access. In the first case there are a number of ranged solutions but in the second case you will either need allies or you will probably end up engaging it in melee. A combined charge by multiple DP/Great Daemons will work, a screamer star will almost assuredly kill it in one turn, and some of the psychic powers can help to mitigate it but non of these are perfect solutions in and of themselves. Daemons as it turns out are random

 ansacs wrote:
There is a somewhat strange estimation of the damage output of a knight against a 10 man unit. The knight should on the charge average do 1 Str10 HoW, 2 StrD hits, and the stomp should get 2-3 models per marker as the models should be able to string out in b2b with the knight (average 5 AP4 wounds). If we remove the outlyers (rolling a 1 and 6) then you are looking at 6 wounds you get to make saves against and 2 you do not. Against a 10 man TAC squad that is 4 dead SM on average and even against an IG IS you would really have to mess up your model positioning to get a wiped squad. Which is both great as you will want the unit to break and run so you can shoot the thing in your turn.

Wait. Are people actually saying that two AV13 vehicles with a 4+ save are impossible to take down at range? That is essentially what a knight is, two vindicators with 4+ saves.

Ansacs, some of what people are concerned about is that IMperial Knights are immune to shaken, stun, Wep Des and Immob results on the damage table. Yes, you can still glance/pen them for hull points, but you can never remove its potential short of killing it.

Let us compare the following.Using 4 Lascannon Heavy Weapons Teams, I shoot 6 shots each at two vindicators that somehow have a 4++. I'll average 3 hits, then we can throw out roughly half of those hits for the invuln save. Now, I'm going to be generous and call it 1 shot makes it through on each, and each pen. Now lets assume one of the shots is nice and lucky, and gets an explode result. The other one is only a stun. The end result is one vindicator is completely gone, the other has lost a hullpoint, and more importantly it can't do anything important on their next turn. While I could continue shooting at it to make it super-dead, I don't need to. As that its already neutered for a turn, my shooting can move on to other targets.

If we apply the exact same results to an Imperial Knight, and you still have a Knight that has between 1-3HP left (an explosion result removes D3+1 hullpoints). And more importantly, you have a Knight that is still just as dangerous as when you started shooting at it. The imperial knight will not stop until it is dead.

And, when compared to say, two vindicators or two leman russes', makes the Imperial Knight much tougher.

 kir44n wrote:

 ansacs wrote:
There is a somewhat strange estimation of the damage output of a knight against a 10 man unit. The knight should on the charge average do 1 Str10 HoW, 2 StrD hits, and the stomp should get 2-3 models per marker as the models should be able to string out in b2b with the knight (average 5 AP4 wounds). If we remove the outlyers (rolling a 1 and 6) then you are looking at 6 wounds you get to make saves against and 2 you do not. Against a 10 man TAC squad that is 4 dead SM on average and even against an IG IS you would really have to mess up your model positioning to get a wiped squad. Which is both great as you will want the unit to break and run so you can shoot the thing in your turn.

Wait. Are people actually saying that two AV13 vehicles with a 4+ save are impossible to take down at range? That is essentially what a knight is, two vindicators with 4+ saves.

Ansacs, some of what people are concerned about is that IMperial Knights are immune to shaken, stun, Wep Des and Immob results on the damage table. Yes, you can still glance/pen them for hull points, but you can never remove its potential short of killing it.

Let us compare the following.Using 4 Lascannon Heavy Weapons Teams, I shoot 6 shots each at two vindicators that somehow have a 4++. I'll average 3 hits, then we can throw out roughly half of those hits for the invuln save. Now, I'm going to be generous and call it 1 shot makes it through on each, and each pen. Now lets assume one of the shots is nice and lucky, and gets an explode result. The other one is only a stun. The end result is one vindicator is completely gone, the other has lost a hullpoint, and more importantly it can't do anything important on their next turn. While I could continue shooting at it to make it super-dead, I don't need to. As that its already neutered for a turn, my shooting can move on to other targets.

If we apply the exact same results to an Imperial Knight, and you still have a Knight that has between 1-3HP left (an explosion result removes D3+1 hullpoints). And more importantly, you have a Knight that is still just as dangerous as when you started shooting at it. The imperial knight will not stop until it is dead.

And, when compared to say, two vindicators or two leman russes', makes the Imperial Knight much tougher.

Thank you. This is exactly what people aren't realizing.

Maybe it's tougher than two Vindicators, but tougher than 2 Russes? I don't think so. Armor 14 completely ignores a whole slice of very popular weapons (S6/7), AV 13 on the side means even if you get it flanked, you're still having trouble. Russes can be taken down at range with lascannons, but it's not very efficient, and substantially more difficult than Knights. Two stock Russes are also 70 points less than a Knight, with the same firepower. Nobody thinks they're broken. For the Knight to be worth it, you've got to move up. Moving up exposes multiple sides to fire, making it a lot easier to bring down.

Biophysical wrote:
Maybe it's tougher than two Vindicators, but tougher than 2 Russes? I don't think so. Armor 14 completely ignores a whole slice of very popular weapons (S6/7), AV 13 on the side means even if you get it flanked, you're still having trouble. Russes can be taken down at range with lascannons, but it's not very efficient, and substantially more difficult than Knights. Two stock Russes are also 70 points less than a Knight, with the same firepower. Nobody thinks they're broken. For the Knight to be worth it, you've got to move up. Moving up exposes multiple sides to fire, making it a lot easier to bring down.

You might want to read this post again:

 kir44n wrote:

Ansacs, some of what people are concerned about is that IMperial Knights are immune to shaken, stun, Wep Des and Immob results on the damage table. Yes, you can still glance/pen them for hull points, but you can never remove its potential short of killing it.

Let us compare the following.Using 4 Lascannon Heavy Weapons Teams, I shoot 6 shots each at two vindicators that somehow have a 4++. I'll average 3 hits, then we can throw out roughly half of those hits for the invuln save. Now, I'm going to be generous and call it 1 shot makes it through on each, and each pen. Now lets assume one of the shots is nice and lucky, and gets an explode result. The other one is only a stun. The end result is one vindicator is completely gone, the other has lost a hullpoint, and more importantly it can't do anything important on their next turn. While I could continue shooting at it to make it super-dead, I don't need to. As that its already neutered for a turn, my shooting can move on to other targets.

If we apply the exact same results to an Imperial Knight, and you still have a Knight that has between 1-3HP left (an explosion result removes D3+1 hullpoints). And more importantly, you have a Knight that is still just as dangerous as when you started shooting at it. The imperial knight will not stop until it is dead.

And, when compared to say, two vindicators or two leman russes', makes the Imperial Knight much tougher.

Last I checked, Russes aren't immune to the usual damage table, can't hide in melee, and can't move up to 24" per turn. So no, they're not broken.

Biophysical wrote:
Maybe it's tougher than two Vindicators, but tougher than 2 Russes? I don't think so. Armor 14 completely ignores a whole slice of very popular weapons (S6/7), AV 13 on the side means even if you get it flanked, you're still having trouble. Russes can be taken down at range with lascannons, but it's not very efficient, and substantially more difficult than Knights. Two stock Russes are also 70 points less than a Knight, with the same firepower. Nobody thinks they're broken. For the Knight to be worth it, you've got to move up. Moving up exposes multiple sides to fire, making it a lot easier to bring down.

Two Russes also don't have the same firepower. They lack StrD melee and stomp attacks. And they don't have an invul save, so unless you're hiding them in marine-allied-techmarine-fortified area terrain of ruins, they have a 5+ that can be ignored by top tier armies to the Knight's 4++ which cannot.

Add to this that a Leman Russ is hit on armor 10 in CC, where a Knight is hit on AV 13. HUGE difference.

Russes will flat out ignore a lot of the shots that can hurt a Knight thanks to one higher AV. They don't ignore the damage table, they just can't get hurt, or are only glanced. They will probably also get a 5+ cover save, so it's not that much worse than the single direction 4++ for the Knight. Both dual Russes and the Paladin both have two Battlecannon shots +/- heavy stubbers and snapshot heavy bolters, which is the same firepower at range, apologies, for not including close combat ability as "firepower". My point, which you pretty much made by highlighting the Knight's close range power is (from my previous post):

"For the Knight to be worth it, you've got to move up. Moving up exposes multiple sides to fire, making it a lot easier to bring down."

I should also add that moving up makes it that much easier to engage with melta weapons.

I guess what I'm saying is that the Knight can be really hard to kill (for the points), or it can be really scary (for the points), but it really can't be both.

Biophysical wrote:
Russes will flat out ignore a lot of the shots that can hurt a Knight thanks to one higher AV. They don't ignore the damage table, they just can't get hurt, or are only glanced. They will probably also get a 5+ cover save, so it's not that much worse than the single direction 4++ for the Knight. Both dual Russes and the Paladin both have two Battlecannon shots +/- heavy stubbers and snapshot heavy bolters, which is the same firepower at range, apologies, for not including close combat ability as "firepower". My point, which you pretty much made by highlighting the Knight's close range power is (from my previous post):

"For the Knight to be worth it, you've got to move up. Moving up exposes multiple sides to fire, making it a lot easier to bring down."

I should also add that moving up makes it that much easier to engage with melta weapons.

I guess what I'm saying is that the Knight can be really hard to kill (for the points), or it can be really scary (for the points), but it really can't be both.

A LRBT is only AV13 in the sides and AV10 in the back. As long as you are not shooting front armour (not a hard thing to do) russes are easy to take out.
Also being are to kill and being "scary" are not exclusive. Some times it's the same thing. A knight ignore all damage table rolls other than explodes. Tau will easily ignore your cover.

Plus look at how wide a Knight is. Its side armor band is not wide at all. Plus a 4++ just flat out ignores half of damage. There is so much ignores cover out there cover is a joke now.

2 leman russes cannot compare in any way.

Biophysical wrote:
For the Knight to be worth it, you've got to move up.

I do not think that this is really true, a knight can do very well as a back line objective claimer. A paladin has the range to contribute decent firepower to the main battle line, has the speed to redeploy to weak points as needed and is a very good counter assault. One of these hidden inside a gunline makes it a much harder nut to crack, as there is now a very large threat that is well bubble wrapped and can be a major headache to assault units.

The scoring is also a massive boon. I have considered using a knight paladin as my only scoring unit in an ABG list, which has notoriously weak scoring. It removes the reliance on weak armoured fist squads to score, whilst not compromising too much on firepower and adding to the high AV saturation.

Why are people trying to compare a walker to a tank, let alone with a points difference?
This thing is pretty unique as it is since it should be fairly common due to a cheap ish price.
£300 tends to put people off of warhounds, but £85 for a knight?
I see alot more people going for this.


Since im mainly running my necrons now anyway, gauss will quite happily work for me since im used to just stripping HP.

If i do start running into issues with it and find its quite common, ill just run another lord with 5 stormteks to solve the issue.
20 haywire shots per turn should do decent damage.

13 hits.
2 pens.
9 glances.
2 misses.

Trickstick: I'll concede that a knight providing fire support in a gunline and acting as counter-attack is a pretty difficult to kill unit. Isn't this a shooting edition, though? Do gunlines really have a lot of trouble with assault units reaching them? I know there are a few re-rollable save deathstars out there that will care, but is this thing really changing how gunlines play? It's firepower per point is really not that good.

I do think the Errant version with a super-melta brings something pretty interesting to the table (shooting-wise), though.

The whole "this is a shooting edition" thing is only true to a certain extent. There are lots of fast, deadly assault units that can put a lot of pain into a gunline, especially if your opponent uses LOS properly in order to close the distance.

Fair enough.

I'll never bring a Knight, simply because I know it will ruin games and I play with people I actually like the vast majority of the time.

However, I do think it will be a good case for Medusas with BB shells. Not too often they are the best port of call, but they stand a good chance of hurting a Knight badly. Yay for oversized artillery pieces.

I think people are misinterpreting some key rules here.

First off, if you destroy a knight in CC it scatter 2d6 inches. So yeah, it has a chance of not striking the models that blew it up at all with the STR D blast. If a hit is scored it still scatters regardless anything above 6 inches away and you are pretty okay you'll suffer from some possible out edge blasts but that's it.


The next is

Anything that is in a Flying Monstrous Creature with a STR of 7 or More can knock the crap out of these guys. People say Tyranids can't deal with them, uh yes they can. Vector Strike, hits side armour allows them no save.

The next is

Barrage!!!

Anything that is Barrage Heavy or has a STR of 6 or more and can be fire out of LOS wrecks them. Barrage acts as if it strikes the vehicle on the side armour regardles of where the blast template is.

It only has a 4+ save against a facing of its choosing.

I pair of thunderfire cannons for 200 points could blow one of these up and it couldn't do anything about it if it was out of LOS. Also that base is HUGE on anything more than 4 it still hits it.



Honestly it's a super balanced unit. It's not quite a glass canon but still kind of close.

As an eldar player I will gladly be fielding my Vauls Artillery with some D-cannons. S10 Ap 2 with barrage will be making short work of an expensive model. In return my warlock shrouded artillery unit will be snickering behind a building.

Down with meta!

 CorpseCommander wrote:
As an eldar player I will gladly be fielding my Vauls Artillery with some D-cannons. S10 Ap 2 with barrage will be making short work of an expensive model. In return my warlock shrouded artillery unit will be snickering behind a building.

Down with meta!

2 choices

cower out of range of the vauls and give up the knights mobility/cc

bumrush the vauls with more than 1 knight. they can get there in 2 turns, but will probably lose 1 to the vauls. won't work if you go crazy with multiple vauls, but that's a very static short ranged list.

Does the Eldar's 'Disarming Strike' ability work on the IK's D weapon? So for example could I attack it in melee with an Avatar and possibly disable it's ability to use strength D melee attacks to wipe out the Avatar (assuming it survives the Avatar's smash attacks)?

I think that only works in a challenge.

Ah, you're right. I didn't have my codex on me and forgot that bit.

 J.Black wrote:
AS might be the army that has the least problems taking these things down. Even a TaC list will sport at least one unit of doms with 4-5 meltas and probably a couple of exorcists... not to mention there will likely be even more melta riding around on/in transports.

That's a lot of S8 AP1, and it has a lot of reach thanks to scout/outflank. Should be relatively easy to threaten more than one facing and force it to either expose itself to twin-linked melta shots or a bunch of missiles.

Heh. And a Priest can give a blob squad Fearless, though as people have said blobbing Knights is probably a suicide mission.

Cross-posted from the Sisters of Battle tactics thread, where we've been discussing counters:

No. 1:

 SisterSydney wrote:
6 HP for 375 points? Ahahahahahahahahaha..... That's enough for three Exorcists, with 9 HP, firing 3d6 (average 10.5) S:8 AP:1 shots a turn from three different angles so at least one gets around the shield.

The Knight's better by far beyond 48" and in melee, of course. But in a lot of setups the Exorcists can either start within 48" of the Knight so they can shoot back or behind cover so it can't shoot them. And then it has to walk through your zone of fire if it wants to hit you with that lovely Destroyer close combat weapon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS: Not saying the Knight is terrible, it's really interesting, but it's hardly game-breaking and may often be a bad choice for points spent, kind of like a Land Raider, and because of a similar schizophrenia about roles: If you want to use the Destroyer CCW you have to give up your range advantage, if you want to exploit your range advantage -- and stay alive, given your 6 HP -- your CCW might as well be a paper sword with sparkles glued to it.

No. 2:

 SisterSydney wrote:
I'm playing pure theoryhammer here, I don't have the model, and being wrong is another of my hobbies, but:

The Knight's shield only covers "one facing." That means if you can get a crossfire on it, it has to choose which side to protect. Ideally you want your three Exorcists on the far left, center, and far right while the Knight obligingly walks right up the middle so you can hit both sides and the front facing at once.

A more cautious Knight will cling to one corner of the board, but if you spread your Exorcists out enough you should still be able to threaten two sides at once.

These side shots are much easier to get on a wide, narrow battlefield -- eg Dawn of War or Vanguard Strike deployment -- where you can really spread your Exorcists out and they'll probably be in range from turn one. Hammer & Anvil is your enemy here, since it makes side angles harder and lets a Knight-Paladin camp out in the corner behind the shield and take shots at you from beyond your 48" maximum range. That's when you want your Exorcists in a reverse-slope position behind a LOS-blocking ridge, ready to roll up into firing positions when the Knight advances... or when something else advances you've got to deal with, at which point the Knight picks you off. Ugly.

For a corner-camping Knight Paladin, I'd suggest deep striking Seraphim with Melta Bombs... I'd be worried about it blowing up outflanking Domions before they can reach it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
No, wait, I'm an idiot: Serpahim would get stomped to death before they could take away enough HP with melta bombs and inferno pistols. Outflanking Dominions in TL Multi-Melta Immolators would probably strip away more Hull Points before dying.

Yes, I may be an idiot about other things as well, of course.

The Knight just has to turn at the end of it's move so that the imaginary line that separates the front arc and one of the side arcs points directly at the opposing table edge.

That means the front facing 180 degrees consists of 90 degrees best armour and 90 degrees Ion Shield.

On that basis the 10.5 shots basically drop out at ~1 glancing/penetrating hit.

 Baragash wrote:
The Knight just has to turn at the end of it's move so that the imaginary line that separates the front arc and one of the side arcs points directly at the opposing table edge.

That means the front facing 180 degrees consists of 90 degrees best armour and 90 degrees Ion Shield.

On that basis the 10.5 shots basically drop out at ~1 glancing/penetrating hit.

Two versus AV13, one a glance and one a pen. Assuming the void shield is on an AV12 side and the AV13 side hits it. And no cover for the Knight. So, your one pen then has to roll a 4+ on top of that to give you a significant damage result.

Ok, that's nasty. Looks like the Exorcists' job may be to keep the Knights' shield facing front while Dominions in multi-melta infiltrators scout/outflank... or vice versa.

Yes, that's way more points than a Knight costs, but it's also something most take-all-comers Sisters armies have already, and it's best to concentrate fire on such a dangerous target to kill it as fast as possible.

The problem I keep seeing is people naming one or two units that can bring down a Knight, without realizing the defensive math behind this machine.

Take your number of special weapons in the squad you're oh-so-certain will kill a knight. Assume they're BS4. So multiply your weapon count by 2/3 for misses. Now, cut your number of weapons in half for the void shield. I'm not certain of the math behind the penetration for say, a meltagun, but let's go ahead and hit the new number with another 2/3 multiplier. Or 5/6, if it makes you feel better, to account for penetration.

That's how many special weapons are actually going to do something. Half that number again for AP1 weapons, and that's tangible damage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, every meltagun you bring is roughly 5/18's of a meltagun. Not accounting for penetration results, which turn it into 5/36's of a meltagun.

Hmmm. I'll have to run the math when I'm not feverishly on deadline. A single Dominion squad in an Immolator can fire four meltaguns and a twin-linked multi-melta, all at BS:4, but that 4++ Ion Shield sure is nasty.

Apparently, someone mentioned rolling Telekinesis on the Chaos Side if doing Flying Circus.

If you have Be'lakor, you shouldn't need to roll on Telepathy anymore.

Slaanesh Princes should have lashes for Biomancy and hope for Iron Arm.

Any other Princes w/ Telekinesis in hopes of getting Crush, Objuration Mechanicum, and Vortex of Doom to have at least some chance of stripping Hullpoints.

Allied Heldrakes w/ Hades Autocannon for Hull-point stripping.

The combination of Vector Strikes and slow HP removal should be enough eventually. A weakened knight can be assaulted safely to take down the final HPs if you wish to trade in your FMC but if they survive, good for you.