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Should BA be rolled into C:SM?
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Yes with a Supplement
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Feth no!

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niv-mizzet wrote:


Think that's roughly it. Have fun with all those little footnotes you have to add to C:SM's options to get BA to work.


Back in 2nd before Hurricane Ward dumped inches of special snowflakes all over the faction the BA worked just fine with 1-2 special units and a shared codex with DA.

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Huh, I didn't know that about Wolfguard. I suppose then, if you rolled them into the main codex, you could just have a CT rule stating that Tactical Terminator squads that allows you to take items from the melee weapons and Vanguard vets to take combi weapons. Then all you'd be losing is the ability to mix PA and TDA.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/01 22:42:32


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MarsNZ wrote:
niv-mizzet wrote:


Think that's roughly it. Have fun with all those little footnotes you have to add to C:SM's options to get BA to work.


Back in 2nd before Hurricane Ward dumped inches of special snowflakes all over the faction the BA worked just fine with 1-2 special units and a shared codex with DA.


Not like anyone else would've been better, considering all those kits needed a representation in the codex they would've been shoved in anyways.

Remember, the modelers are the ones who make things, then the codex writers have to shove them in somehow (like the dinobots).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/01 22:46:38


 
   
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 TheCustomLime wrote:
Huh, I didn't know that about Wolfguard. I suppose then, if you rolled them into the main codex, you could just have a CT rule stating that Tactical Terminator squads that allows you to take items from the melee weapons and Vanguard vets to take combi weapons. Then all you'd be losing is the ability to mix PA and TDA.

Probably would be easier to say that our sergeants are unit upgrades can buy TDA and a crapload of weapon options.

But I'll throw in my hat here and say that rolling SW into the C:SM book would be more trouble than it's worth.

   
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 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
 TheCustomLime wrote:
Huh, I didn't know that about Wolfguard. I suppose then, if you rolled them into the main codex, you could just have a CT rule stating that Tactical Terminator squads that allows you to take items from the melee weapons and Vanguard vets to take combi weapons. Then all you'd be losing is the ability to mix PA and TDA.

Probably would be easier to say that our sergeants are unit upgrades can buy TDA and a crapload of weapon options.

But I'll throw in my hat here and say that rolling SW into the C:SM book would be more trouble than it's worth.


Actually you could just have them say

Upgrade to Wolf Guard Sargent: Gain Access to main wargear table here here and here. (Melee, ranged, and terminator)
   
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Voted other.

I think BA/DA/SW could be rolled into the main C:SM codex but only if the current format were changed to allow for unique units and wargear to be better represented, and not just on BA but across all of the internal factions in C:SM.

A format change for unit selection to something like this could work:

-Generic Wargear list
Generic Unit List
-HQ
-Troops
-Elite
-Fast Attack
-Heavy Support

----Chapter Armory----
--Blood Angles: Chapter Tactics/special rules
---Unique Wargear: Infernus Pistol, Hand Flamer
---HQs: Commander Dante, Mephiston ect.
---Troops: Assault Marine Squads
---Fast Attack: Baal Predator
-Dark Angels
-Space Wolvs
-White Scars
-Imperial Fists
-Iron Hands
-Ultramarines
-Salamanders
-Raven Guard
-Black Templars

Also when you look at the current wargear selection that a unit has it's written as "Unit may take a weapon from Special Weapons list", the special weapons list in the Chapter armory would be named the same and be additional to the generic one, so you would then have access Generic Special Weapon list + BA Special Seapon list if your chapter tactics were BA for example, this would work the same for any other section, troops would be Generic Tactical Squads/Scout Squads + Assault Squads since they would be listed as troops under the BA in the Chapter Armory.

Keep in mind that this is just a first pass at the idea from me and could be made much much better if iterated upon enough.

A format like that would allow for each separate Chapter to have its own space in the codex for any unique units, weapons and points costs beyond the basics that are shared across all of the chapters.

This would probably be a good format change for every other codex as well, since as far as I know they all have some form of "internal factions" that could be given unique wargear and units, Ork players could get unique special rules and units for "Evil Sunz" and CSM players could get their legion specific special rules and wargear for legions like the "Night Lords" heck even the different hive fleets could be given unique special rules and units.

Without changing the format in some way I don't personally think it's worth rolling any codex together.
   
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niv-mizzet wrote:
Think that's roughly it. Have fun with all those little footnotes you have to add to C:SM's options to get BA to work.

And when I made that list, I also forgot the deep striking land raiders! I have to state again, that properly inserting all the options so that the BA at LEAST get a lateral move, instead of being gutted, when moving them into a combined codex, would require a huge section of the codex. More than any other chapter by far. The C:SM would become "C:BA and some other marines' special characters, + a crusader unit." Not exactly a thrilling title.

Just going through what I posted, you need at least a couple lines of fluff nodding at the BA for all the shared units (like a quick mention that Blood Angels go to assault squads first instead of devastators, etc.) So let's just call that an extra page of text necessary. Now you need a page for each unique unit. Ok that's 11 pages. Now we need 8 more for the unique special characters. Then we go over to the points section, and at an average of 3 units a page, the BA ONLY units will take up over 6 pages in the points section. Then we need about half a page to do a paragraph blurb about each of the unique wargears, and a few lines in the wargear section for the point costs, plus the little asterisk that denotes them as BA ONLY options. And the couple lines about lucifer pattern engines in all the rhino chassis vehicles in the fluff, and the same asterisk in their points section next to a fast vehicle option. So all told that's about another page of text right there. Then you need paint sections. All the SC's can fit on one, and the other units can share at 2 a page, so about 5 and a half, then at least a picture for the BA paintjob on the shared units, combining up to another page and a half, and then a page just showing the BA successor color schemes. AND LASTLY, there's about 16 pages of fluff in the BA codex about homeworld, major battles and the like, so let's assume that they GUT half of that to put in a shoddy 8 pages of army/battle fluff here and there. Oh, and two more pages for psychic powers descriptions and random table.


You can reduce all that down by a lot and still keep the essentials. And quite a few of the BA "Exclusive options" would wok just fine if they were expanded to general Codex: SM issue.


Red thirst, descent of angels, and assault squads as troops needs to be addressed.

Make Red thirst and Descent of Angels the chapter traits, and let Red thirst affect dreadnoughts as well. Jump assault squads as troops could be unlocked by a chapter master or captain with jump pack, like how bikes work now.

A full set of Blood Angel theme psychic powers need to be addressed, and yes, we do need them. If Mephiston can't take wings of sanguinius, he's done.
Mopst the Blood Angels powers have been made into BRB powers:
Blood Boil- Spontaneous Combustion is better in every way.
Fear of the Darkness: altered version of Terrify
Might of Heroes: Warp seppd can't target another model, but gives an I boost and flee as well
Shackle Soul: Dominate does the same thing with twice the range.
Shield of Sanguinus: Telekine Dome targets a unit vs a 6" bubble, but is an Inv save instead of cover, and can bounce shots back.
Smite: is Smite.
Blood lance: Molten Beam is a weaker version.
Sanguine Sword: Iron Arm gives a tough boost and EW as well, but only only +d3 str instead of flat S10
Unleash Rage: Precognition is so much better in every way.
Wings of Sanguinous: The only one without a real counterpart. And if keeping it is the only thing making Mepheston work, just give it to him as a unique power. Or redesign Mepheston a tad.

8.5 special characters: Dante (includes make sanguinary guard troops rule,) Tycho/DC Tycho, Mephiston, Astorath (includes multiple death companies rule,) Seth, Corbulo, Sanguinor, Lemartes.
This is the only real sticking point. Ultramarines have 6 SCs (two are unit upgrades). Seth is a Flesh Tearer character, so similar to how Pedro works. Lemartes and Corbulo are both upgrade characters, like Telion and Chronus. Outside them, you have 2 chapter master, a captain, a librarian, Astorath, and Sanguinor. You could add them, and then add a few more characters for other chapters to balance things out a bit- Add Stronos for Iron Hands, bring back Chaplain Xavier for Salamanders, and add a couple new characters to cover White Scars and Raven guard. It would be character heavy, but chapter locking characters helps with that a lot.


Special units: Sanguinary guard, Death Company, Sanguinary priests, Baal Predator, Reclusiarch, DC dreadnought, Furioso Dreadnought (they do have different loadout selections than ironclads,) Furioso Librarian, Honour guard with packs instead of arty armor, and a Sanguinary Novitiate. Chaplain as an elite choice instead of HQ.
Sanguinary guard- Give Honor Guard jump pack options (and bikes to cover White Scars). Glaive vs normal power weapon is minor- a reroll but two handed, so no extra attack. A wash, can just drop the glaive. Angelus boltgun into bolt pistol would be a more major change, but you would be trading a bit of close range shooting for an extra power weapon attack. Add Death Mask as a chapter locked wargear for honor guard, captains, and chapter masters.
Death Company- Chapter locked unit, like Crusader squads. Lemartes as an upgrade character.
Sanguinary Priests- I would say remove them as a separate model, and give the normal apothecary the ability to take weapons/wargear upgrades to not invalidate any models. Give command squads access to jump packs at the same time. Make Corbulo an apothecary upgrade character that gives a FNP and Furious charge bubble.
Baal Predator- Chapter locked unit.
Reclusiarch- Let Chaplains (and Librarians) purchase an extra wound and attack for say 35 points. Like in 4th edition.
DC dreadnought:- potentially drop?
Furioso Dreadnought- Add frag cannon, combat talons (rename blood talons) and magnagrapple options to base Ironclad entry.
Librarian Dread- add as upgrade to basic dread (similar to Venerable) also add Chaplain dread option.
BA Honor guard- is the same as a base command squad.
Elite Chaplain- nice, but could be dropped without major impact.

Wargear: Angelus boltguns, infernus pistols, blood talons for dreadnoughts, bloodstrike missiles, melta availability on ASM's.
Angelus boltgun could go away without much difficulty. Infernius Pistols (and hand lamers) could be added to the normal armory. Blood Talons on dreadnoughts- rename combat talons and give to the Ironclad. Bloodstrike missiles- are kind of fun, but could go away in favor of the stormstrike missiles of the SM version of the Stormraven. Melta availability on assault squads- give it to them. Would make them more useful, and be nice for raven guard.

Vehicle rules: Rhinos, Razorbacks, Predators, Whirlwinds, Baal Predators, and Vindicators are all fast, and have different costs than normal SM versions.
Remove fast and the changed point cost, and then add a chapter locked piece of wargear called lucifer pattern engines for rhino hulled vehicles that costs 5-10 points that makes them fast.

Painting: BA and their successor chapters' paint schemes. Well-known ones that at least need a picture are Angels Sanguine, Flesh Tearers, Lamenters, Angels Encarmine, Knights of Blood, Blood Drinkers, and Angels Vermilion. Oh and of course all those unique units above need pictures, as well as the BA version of many of the other "shared" units.
Give BA 4-5 pages for fluff, a 1-2 page timeline, and a page with say 4 main successors like how other chapters in the main book work. Maybe give Flesh Tearers their own 2 page mini section like Crimson fists. Add the Baal Predator to the SM tanks lineup. Mix in BA and BA sucessor paintjobs among various pictures like all the other chapters in the SM codex. Unique fluff page for Death company, Baal predator can be done in a paragraph.

End result-
Fluff, 7-9 pages. Characters 8 pages. Death company 1-2 pages. Wargear- add Infernius pistols, hand flamers, Death mask, Lucifer pattern engine to the wargear lists. Bestiary- 8 characters (2 pages total, going by Codex SM entries). Librarian (and chaplain dread) 1/3 of a page or so. Death company- 1/2 page. In fact, put them on the same page as the crusader squad. Baal Predator 1/4 of a page.

Call it around 28 pages. If you add say Xavier, Stronos, and 1 more character, you could bump it to about 32 pages, which is 2x 16 page blocks.
   
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I still don't undetstand why, if Wings is so key to Mephiston working as a character, he doesn't just have a fricken jump pack.



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 Furyou Miko wrote:
I still don't undetstand why, if Wings is so key to Mephiston working as a character, he doesn't just have a fricken jump pack.


Because the model does not come with one.
   
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Neither does Celestine's, but she gets away with it.



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 MajorWesJanson wrote:
niv-mizzet wrote:
Think that's roughly it. Have fun with all those little footnotes you have to add to C:SM's options to get BA to work.

And when I made that list, I also forgot the deep striking land raiders! I have to state again, that properly inserting all the options so that the BA at LEAST get a lateral move, instead of being gutted, when moving them into a combined codex, would require a huge section of the codex. More than any other chapter by far. The C:SM would become "C:BA and some other marines' special characters, + a crusader unit." Not exactly a thrilling title.

Just going through what I posted, you need at least a couple lines of fluff nodding at the BA for all the shared units (like a quick mention that Blood Angels go to assault squads first instead of devastators, etc.) So let's just call that an extra page of text necessary. Now you need a page for each unique unit. Ok that's 11 pages. Now we need 8 more for the unique special characters. Then we go over to the points section, and at an average of 3 units a page, the BA ONLY units will take up over 6 pages in the points section. Then we need about half a page to do a paragraph blurb about each of the unique wargears, and a few lines in the wargear section for the point costs, plus the little asterisk that denotes them as BA ONLY options. And the couple lines about lucifer pattern engines in all the rhino chassis vehicles in the fluff, and the same asterisk in their points section next to a fast vehicle option. So all told that's about another page of text right there. Then you need paint sections. All the SC's can fit on one, and the other units can share at 2 a page, so about 5 and a half, then at least a picture for the BA paintjob on the shared units, combining up to another page and a half, and then a page just showing the BA successor color schemes. AND LASTLY, there's about 16 pages of fluff in the BA codex about homeworld, major battles and the like, so let's assume that they GUT half of that to put in a shoddy 8 pages of army/battle fluff here and there. Oh, and two more pages for psychic powers descriptions and random table.


You can reduce all that down by a lot and still keep the essentials. And quite a few of the BA "Exclusive options" would wok just fine if they were expanded to general Codex: SM issue.


Red thirst, descent of angels, and assault squads as troops needs to be addressed.

Make Red thirst and Descent of Angels the chapter traits, and let Red thirst affect dreadnoughts as well. Jump assault squads as troops could be unlocked by a chapter master or captain with jump pack, like how bikes work now.

A full set of Blood Angel theme psychic powers need to be addressed, and yes, we do need them. If Mephiston can't take wings of sanguinius, he's done.
Mopst the Blood Angels powers have been made into BRB powers:
Blood Boil- Spontaneous Combustion is better in every way.
Fear of the Darkness: altered version of Terrify
Might of Heroes: Warp seppd can't target another model, but gives an I boost and flee as well
Shackle Soul: Dominate does the same thing with twice the range.
Shield of Sanguinus: Telekine Dome targets a unit vs a 6" bubble, but is an Inv save instead of cover, and can bounce shots back.
Smite: is Smite.
Blood lance: Molten Beam is a weaker version.
Sanguine Sword: Iron Arm gives a tough boost and EW as well, but only only +d3 str instead of flat S10
Unleash Rage: Precognition is so much better in every way.
Wings of Sanguinous: The only one without a real counterpart. And if keeping it is the only thing making Mepheston work, just give it to him as a unique power. Or redesign Mepheston a tad.

8.5 special characters: Dante (includes make sanguinary guard troops rule,) Tycho/DC Tycho, Mephiston, Astorath (includes multiple death companies rule,) Seth, Corbulo, Sanguinor, Lemartes.
This is the only real sticking point. Ultramarines have 6 SCs (two are unit upgrades). Seth is a Flesh Tearer character, so similar to how Pedro works. Lemartes and Corbulo are both upgrade characters, like Telion and Chronus. Outside them, you have 2 chapter master, a captain, a librarian, Astorath, and Sanguinor. You could add them, and then add a few more characters for other chapters to balance things out a bit- Add Stronos for Iron Hands, bring back Chaplain Xavier for Salamanders, and add a couple new characters to cover White Scars and Raven guard. It would be character heavy, but chapter locking characters helps with that a lot.


Special units: Sanguinary guard, Death Company, Sanguinary priests, Baal Predator, Reclusiarch, DC dreadnought, Furioso Dreadnought (they do have different loadout selections than ironclads,) Furioso Librarian, Honour guard with packs instead of arty armor, and a Sanguinary Novitiate. Chaplain as an elite choice instead of HQ.
Sanguinary guard- Give Honor Guard jump pack options (and bikes to cover White Scars). Glaive vs normal power weapon is minor- a reroll but two handed, so no extra attack. A wash, can just drop the glaive. Angelus boltgun into bolt pistol would be a more major change, but you would be trading a bit of close range shooting for an extra power weapon attack. Add Death Mask as a chapter locked wargear for honor guard, captains, and chapter masters.
Death Company- Chapter locked unit, like Crusader squads. Lemartes as an upgrade character.
Sanguinary Priests- I would say remove them as a separate model, and give the normal apothecary the ability to take weapons/wargear upgrades to not invalidate any models. Give command squads access to jump packs at the same time. Make Corbulo an apothecary upgrade character that gives a FNP and Furious charge bubble.
Baal Predator- Chapter locked unit.
Reclusiarch- Let Chaplains (and Librarians) purchase an extra wound and attack for say 35 points. Like in 4th edition.
DC dreadnought:- potentially drop?
Furioso Dreadnought- Add frag cannon, combat talons (rename blood talons) and magnagrapple options to base Ironclad entry.
Librarian Dread- add as upgrade to basic dread (similar to Venerable) also add Chaplain dread option.
BA Honor guard- is the same as a base command squad.
Elite Chaplain- nice, but could be dropped without major impact.

Wargear: Angelus boltguns, infernus pistols, blood talons for dreadnoughts, bloodstrike missiles, melta availability on ASM's.
Angelus boltgun could go away without much difficulty. Infernius Pistols (and hand lamers) could be added to the normal armory. Blood Talons on dreadnoughts- rename combat talons and give to the Ironclad. Bloodstrike missiles- are kind of fun, but could go away in favor of the stormstrike missiles of the SM version of the Stormraven. Melta availability on assault squads- give it to them. Would make them more useful, and be nice for raven guard.

Vehicle rules: Rhinos, Razorbacks, Predators, Whirlwinds, Baal Predators, and Vindicators are all fast, and have different costs than normal SM versions.
Remove fast and the changed point cost, and then add a chapter locked piece of wargear called lucifer pattern engines for rhino hulled vehicles that costs 5-10 points that makes them fast.

Painting: BA and their successor chapters' paint schemes. Well-known ones that at least need a picture are Angels Sanguine, Flesh Tearers, Lamenters, Angels Encarmine, Knights of Blood, Blood Drinkers, and Angels Vermilion. Oh and of course all those unique units above need pictures, as well as the BA version of many of the other "shared" units.
Give BA 4-5 pages for fluff, a 1-2 page timeline, and a page with say 4 main successors like how other chapters in the main book work. Maybe give Flesh Tearers their own 2 page mini section like Crimson fists. Add the Baal Predator to the SM tanks lineup. Mix in BA and BA sucessor paintjobs among various pictures like all the other chapters in the SM codex. Unique fluff page for Death company, Baal predator can be done in a paragraph.

End result-
Fluff, 7-9 pages. Characters 8 pages. Death company 1-2 pages. Wargear- add Infernius pistols, hand flamers, Death mask, Lucifer pattern engine to the wargear lists. Bestiary- 8 characters (2 pages total, going by Codex SM entries). Librarian (and chaplain dread) 1/3 of a page or so. Death company- 1/2 page. In fact, put them on the same page as the crusader squad. Baal Predator 1/4 of a page.

Call it around 28 pages. If you add say Xavier, Stronos, and 1 more character, you could bump it to about 32 pages, which is 2x 16 page blocks.


I agree with a lot of what you've said here. But you have said a lot. You don't think it'd be better/quicker/easier/nicer/less obtrusive/generally more pleasant to keep things as they are and gently update codex BA to 6th ed?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Why?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/02 04:06:01


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 alanmckenzie wrote:

I agree with a lot of what you've said here. But you have said a lot. You don't think it'd be better/quicker/easier/nicer/less obtrusive/generally more pleasant to keep things as they are and gently update codex BA to 6th ed?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Why?


Because the overwhelming majority of the BA codex is identical to the vanilla codex.

Personally, I find MajorWes' points valid if not even more stretched/bloated than what I'd do. BA could be rolled in with significantly less at minimal loss to theme/playstyle.

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 Blacksails wrote:
 alanmckenzie wrote:

I agree with a lot of what you've said here. But you have said a lot. You don't think it'd be better/quicker/easier/nicer/less obtrusive/generally more pleasant to keep things as they are and gently update codex BA to 6th ed?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Why?


Because the overwhelming majority of the BA codex is identical to the vanilla codex.

Personally, I find MajorWes' points valid if not even more stretched/bloated than what I'd do. BA could be rolled in with significantly less at minimal loss to theme/playstyle.

For one thing, Sanguinor needs to go because he's just such a

   
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What, Andilus, you don't like Imperial Daemon Princes?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/02 13:47:04




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 Furyou Miko wrote:
What, Andilus, you don't like Imperial Daemon Princes?


I like em, I mean the Saints get away with it after all, do Space Marines not have saints of their own?
   
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I think BA have too many differences to be rolled into the SM Codex. Multiple SCs, Red Thirst, Death Company, different Vehicles and Vehicle Special Rules, extra wargear etc

Rolling them into the SM Codex would either remove many of their options or make the SM Codex clunky with all these extra BA units that only a few people using the codex are actually going to use.

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 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
 Blacksails wrote:
 alanmckenzie wrote:

I agree with a lot of what you've said here. But you have said a lot. You don't think it'd be better/quicker/easier/nicer/less obtrusive/generally more pleasant to keep things as they are and gently update codex BA to 6th ed?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Why?


Because the overwhelming majority of the BA codex is identical to the vanilla codex.

Personally, I find MajorWes' points valid if not even more stretched/bloated than what I'd do. BA could be rolled in with significantly less at minimal loss to theme/playstyle.

For one thing, Sanguinor needs to go because he's just such a


Or, or... They could fix him. You know, as the new codices usually do, right?
Little less cost and AP2 weapon. Maybe rewrite his Sgt-buff/enemy-HQ-rape rules. I'd be using him all day long.

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 MajorWesJanson wrote:


You can reduce all that down by a lot and still keep the essentials. And quite a few of the BA "Exclusive options" would wok just fine if they were expanded to general Codex: SM issue.


Red thirst, descent of angels, and assault squads as troops needs to be addressed.

Make Red thirst and Descent of Angels the chapter traits, and let Red thirst affect dreadnoughts as well. Jump assault squads as troops could be unlocked by a chapter master or captain with jump pack, like how bikes work now.

Then how do I take non-jump pack assault squads as troops? And even if the jump-captain lets me, now I'm stuck with a jump IC in a non-jump army.


Special units: Sanguinary guard, Death Company, Sanguinary priests, Baal Predator, Reclusiarch, DC dreadnought, Furioso Dreadnought (they do have different loadout selections than ironclads,) Furioso Librarian, Honour guard with packs instead of arty armor, and a Sanguinary Novitiate. Chaplain as an elite choice instead of HQ.
Sanguinary guard- Give Honor Guard jump pack options (and bikes to cover White Scars). Glaive vs normal power weapon is minor- a reroll but two handed, so no extra attack. A wash, can just drop the glaive. Angelus boltgun into bolt pistol would be a more major change, but you would be trading a bit of close range shooting for an extra power weapon attack. Add Death Mask as a chapter locked wargear for honor guard, captains, and chapter masters.
But we ALSO have honor guard, who ALSO function different, and Sanguinary guard are elites that can be unlocked to be troops! So you want a paragraph in the honor guard points sections that says "you can give them this this this this and this and call them an elite choice" and then on Dante put his "make them troops" line. Yeah I see 1 out of 3 LGS people scratching their heads in confusion at the horrible design choice there.

Death Company- Chapter locked unit, like Crusader squads. Lemartes as an upgrade character.


DC dreadnought:- potentially drop?
People who play a DC dread as Moriar the Chosen are now hiring assassins to end you

Elite Chaplain- nice, but could be dropped without major impact.
Except for the fluff. Chaplains are supposed to communicate orders to DC, so it makes sense that you'd be able to take non-HQ ones who had DC babysitting as their job instead of leading the strike force.


Angelus boltgun could go away without much difficulty.
Come re-model my Sanguinary Guard then.

Vehicle rules: Rhinos, Razorbacks, Predators, Whirlwinds, Baal Predators, and Vindicators are all fast, and have different costs than normal SM versions.
Remove fast and the changed point cost, and then add a chapter locked piece of wargear called lucifer pattern engines for rhino hulled vehicles that costs 5-10 points that makes them fast.
This is one that I could get behind. Now I could take non-fast whirlwinds without an ally and not get jewed on the points, and the fast ability being cheaper would make me happy.



Give BA 4-5 pages for fluff, a 1-2 page timeline
MUH FLUFF. Seriously that's cutting a LOT. I would actually like to see MORE, not LESS, in later books.


End result-
Fluff, 7-9 pages. Characters 8 pages. Death company 1-2 pages. Wargear- add Infernius pistols, hand flamers, Death mask, Lucifer pattern engine to the wargear lists. Bestiary- 8 characters (2 pages total, going by Codex SM entries). Librarian (and chaplain dread) 1/3 of a page or so. Death company- 1/2 page. In fact, put them on the same page as the crusader squad. Baal Predator 1/4 of a page.

Call it around 28 pages. If you add say Xavier, Stronos, and 1 more character, you could bump it to about 32 pages, which is 2x 16 page blocks.
God that is SO much change just to fit them into a book where they don't belong.
28 pages would STILL make it "codex blood angels and friends," as they'd have the biggest share of space in the book amongst all the chapters dedicated to them only.
If it was already like this, and they never had their own book, I'd be one of the people scratching my head and commenting "why's GW so dumb that they can't realize these guys need to stop dominating a shared book that they need 4000 asterisk-options to fit in and just get their own?"

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2014/03/02 14:23:22


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For what it's worth. I believe Blood Angels SHOULD retain their own Codex. I should also note that I, likewise, believe that Space Wolves, Black Templars, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, should have theirs. As should (at least in supplement form) Imperial Fists, Ultramarines, White Scars, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, Salamanders, Iron Warriors, Night Lords, World Eaters, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, Black Legion, Word Bearers, Alpha Legion, Tallarn, Valhalla, Kult of Speed, Genestealer Cult, Biel Tan, etc, etc, etc.

The following is my reasoning;

The list of currently unique facets of Codex: Blood Angels. I may well have missed some. Spoilered because it's quite long.

Spoiler:
The Fluff
Dante
Tycho
DC Tycho
Mephiston
Corbulo
Lemartes
Astorath
The Sanguinor
Gabriel Seth
(All respective special wargear)
Reclusiarch
Chaplains as Elites
Sanguinary Priests (3 in 1) (+ Jump Packs)
Blood Chalices
Sanguinary Guard
Honour Guard with Jump Packs
Furioso Dreadnoughts (+the Frag Cannon)
Furioso Librarians
Death Company
Death Company Dreadnoughts
Assault Squads as troops
Assault Squad wargear options
Assault Squad discounted transports
Land Raiders as Transports
Deep Striking Land Raiders
Fast Tanks
Baal Predators (Fast, Scout)
Angelus Boltgun
Glaive Encarmine
Hand Flamer
Infernus Pistol
Frag Cannon
Descent of Angels
Red Thirst
Psychic Powers
Divination


To attempt to roll all of this into C:SM would, undoubtedly, lead to the loss of some of it (and subsequently the invalidation of models, units, armies, collections). It would also further dilute the current C:SM to it's detriment. Do C:SM players really want all these pages of BA and successor rules, fluff, wargear, exceptions/exemptions clogging up their already bloated Codex? There'd have to be BA chapter icons through much of the codex. The alternative to this is to allow BA specific units no longer specific to BA. Which would give Space Marines a lot more options, and would no doubt upset non SM players further. Would C:SM become more bloated and convoluted (likely)? Or will this be mitigated by the removal of existing C:SM fluff/rules/art/showcases (sadly, also likely)? Would BA sacrifice units/rules/individuality (certainly)? As well as losing a book (Codex: BA), you'd be weakening another (C:SM).


There are a few people here saying “give BA a supplement”, or words to that effect. Sure, a supplement would work, but, honestly, what would be the point in this? What are the benefits? Having to buy (and carry around/flick through) two books instead of one?

The roll in and supplement production will consume at least as much, if not more, time/effort (even take up more shelf space) on GW's part than producing Codex: Blood Angels 6th ed will.

To me, there is no discernible reason to get rid of Codex: Blood Angels. To say that it could be done (easily or otherwise) is not a reason. It is an observation. I acknowledge that it could be done. Although not easily. It would not be a case of simply adding a chapter tactic, a couple of special rules and Baal Predators. To suggest it would be is rather silly. In my opinion, of course.

Irrelevant, however. Again, the fact that it could be done, is not a reason to do it. Although the vast majority of this thread does seem to be a discussion of how?, and not why?

The only real reasons that I've seen posted here are as follows;

-Putting BA into C:SM with a supplement would give BA access to SM units.

A fair reason, but, again, worth the extra expense? And worth the ceding of individuality of both the BA and C:SM chapters? A bit of an assumption here perhaps, but I think if you were to ask players of both Codices, they'd tell you that they appreciate the differences despite the fact that they are missing out on certain things (Furioso's for Thuderfire Cannons, for example). C:SM players like that Thunderfires and Telion and things are theirs. Similarly BA players don't mind missing out on these things in favour of Furioso's and assault troops. Demonstrated by the fact that they've made the decision to play BA in the first place. Obviously, more options are a good thing. But at the expense of individuality, play style and theme? Not sure.

-Putting BA into C:SM with a supplement would give BA updates at the same time/pace as C:SM.

Again, fair enough, but how big a deal is it that BA are currently looking to be around 12 months behind C:SM? Maybe for the competitive players it could be an issue. But for many (possibly most?) BA players, who picked BA for their fluff/style/theme/look, I'm not sure they'd swap that individuality simply for updates at the same time time as Codex: Space Marines. In terms of balance, I honestly don't think that it's too much of an ask of GW to produce externally balanced codices over the course of a few years.

-Quicker updates for all Codices. I.e, Updating 4 separate SM codices means waiting longer for that Dark Eldar update.

To an extent, yes. But surely this has been mitigated by the vastly increased release rate of the last couple of years? By Christmas this year, it's likely that we'll have seen around ten or eleven new books in a little over two years. Plus supplements, of course.

All other reasons offered seem to be variations of “they're marines”, “they're Codex adherent”, “BT got rolled in”, “Chaos/Ork warbands”, “Craftworlds”, “Special Snowflake”, “We don't have our own Codex”. In short, not good reasons for removing a book (which does no harm to anyone) from the shelves.

What we should be asking of GW is more Codices, more supplements, more variety. Not less. Maybe a little wishful I'll admit.


TL-DR? Books are good. More books is better. Less books is worse.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/02 14:28:22


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Where is the hell no button....

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talljosh85 wrote:
Where is the hell no button....

ill get right on that

 Azreal13 wrote:
Not that it matters because given the amount of interbreeding that went on with that lot I'm pretty sure the Queen is her own Uncle.

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It's a shame I've already voted, or feth no! would have 1 at least.

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As a dark angels player and long defender of the split codex for space marines I have to say that the supplements have changed my mind, they contain enough space to have all the fluff and rules you need for the unique units and not need to repeat themselves with captains and all the other things they share, it can be done quite easily and will never happen
   
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 Formosa wrote:
As a dark angels player and long defender of the split codex for space marines I have to say that the supplements have changed my mind, they contain enough space to have all the fluff and rules you need for the unique units and not need to repeat themselves with captains and all the other things they share, it can be done quite easily and will never happen

But they would still need to update the supplement, and on top of that you would pay twice just to have the base models and a bunch of rules you wouldnt neeed.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Not that it matters because given the amount of interbreeding that went on with that lot I'm pretty sure the Queen is her own Uncle.

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Really this thread just failed on about 3 levels, you should all feel bad and do better.-motyak 
   
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For what it's worth. I believe Blood Angels SHOULD retain their own Codex. I should also note that I, likewise, believe that Space Wolves, Black Templars, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, should have theirs. As should (at least in supplement form) Imperial Fists, Ultramarines, White Scars, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, Salamanders, Iron Warriors, Night Lords, World Eaters, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, Black Legion, Word Bearers, Alpha Legion, Tallarn, Valhalla, Kult of Speed, Genestealer Cult, Biel Tan, etc, etc, etc.


While the pace of codex updates have certainly increased, they sure as heck haven't increased that much. As it is, Sisters of Battle still don't have a real codex, Orkz are still badly in need of an update, and Tyranids are a mess despite their recent update and it looks like all three are going to have to wait for Imperial guard to update first. Certainly these books need to be updated and brought into working condition before we start adding a bunch of additional supplementary options, especially options to armies that already work fine including Space Marines, Eldar and Imperial Guard. And to be honest, what can we really expect to get from these supplements that you couldn't obtain by adding a few options to the main book? I purchased the Farsight Enclave and all I really use from the book is Crisis Suits counting as troops and two pieces of wargear, and the only thing almost any Tau player seems to use beyond that is O'vesa, either to build O'vesa star or just cram another Riptide into the force org. I don't think these supplements are justified at all, I much prefer they get the main rulebooks correct instead and ensure that the options that should be there are there, rather than tacking them on after the fact in some bloated supplement.

People keep insisting combining SM codices is an intractable problem, allow me to take a crack at the list:

The Fluff - Give each specialist faction half a page, which should enable the fluff associated with BA, SW, BT and DA to fit on 2 pages. This is far more generous than most faction specific fluff given in other army books.

Dante
Tycho
DC Tycho
Mephiston
Corbulo
Lemartes
Astorath
The Sanguinor
Gabriel Seth
(All respective special wargear)

Pick two SC to represent BA and give them a full page each. Incorporate the rest onto a heroes of the Blood Angels summary. A short blurb on each plus rules should only require 1-2 pages for the whole of them. They were able to do it with "The Eight" from the Farsight enclave, so there should be not problem doing that here.

Reclusiarch - Ok, no idea what these are
Chaplains as Elites - Just add a line to the chaplain entry saying they count as elites for BA.
Sanguinary Priests (3 in 1) (+ Jump Packs) - Upgrade option for apothecaries
Blood Chalices - Wargear restricted to blood angels
Sanguinary Guard - Upgrade option for veterans
Honour Guard with Jump Packs - Just another upgrade option
Furioso Dreadnoughts (+the Frag Cannon) - Upgrade for the dreadnought
Furioso Librarians - Another upgrade for the dreadnought
Death Company - Upgrade for assault squads
Death Company Dreadnoughts - A third upgrade for the dreadnought
Assault Squads as troops - Add a line under the assault squad entry saying they count as troops for BA
Assault Squad wargear options - Just list the additional options
Assault Squad discounted transports - Just drop, Rhinos are cheap as is

Land Raiders as Transports -
Deep Striking Land Raiders - Add a line in the relevant troops entries saying they may take Lander Raiders as a dedicated transport if running BA, a said Landraiders gain deepstrike

Fast Tanks - Vehicle upgrade available to BA
Baal Predators (Fast, Scout) - Another vehicle upgrade available to BA


Angelus Boltgun
Glaive Encarmine
Hand Flamer
Infernus Pistol
Frag Cannon

5 pieces of assorted wargear, should take less than a page

Descent of Angels
Red Thirst

Chapter tactics substitution


Psychic Powers - Add a few pages as needed for the specialized psychic powers found in BA and SW. It is not like other books (see Eldar) don't have a couple of pages of psychic powers.

Divination - Librarians can choose from Divination if running BA.

So that is 1/2 page to fluff, 3-4 pages to SC, 15 or so (depending on how you count them) upgrade options, 6 pieces of wargear, a chapters tactics substitution, 2 pages of psychic powers, and adding divination as a power available to librarians. This has got to be 8 pages tops, and that is assuming you retain everything. Certain entries, like the large number of special characters which account for nearly half of the extra pages needed, were probably introduced as padding and could be cut done. In any case, you are not doubling the size of C:SM by doing this. It is quite practical.

It is good to see that GW is finally getting codices updated in a decent period of time. But I would vastly prefer they spend there time getting the core armies right, keeping them up to date, making all the options in a given codex function, and ensuring a single codex enables numerous play styles, rather than fleshing out arbitrarily chosen subfactions. Every last core army in 40k needs to be updated and updated correctly, then, and only then, should time be devoted to specialist space marine chapters.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/03/04 07:31:47


 
   
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Chaos and DA are also messes to add to that. Even with the faster pace, it still takes a while and worst yet, the supplements are shoddy practice and there is no real sense of balance.

I must ask though, why not just permit all armies that have psykers to just generally be able to opt for any psyker table? I just never got the point of arbitrarily restricting it. Especially sense it then requires exceptions to rules and can break fluff (Ahriman a master diviner can't divine)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/04 08:06:40


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Of course they COULD roll it into codex:SM... they could roll SW in too... It wouldn't be hard, just remove the fluff, change the units around slightly, remove anything that can be something else...

But i'd prefer they didn't. Being a BA player and not a Vanilla SM player, I like having my own codex. I like the subtle and not so subtle differences in my army. I like the pages of Fluff, I like having all my Special Characters, I'd like them to put a few more in (Moriar!). I like the ease of how my army is laid out.. Assault as troops, perfect there it is in my troop choice. I don't have to dance around and find what wargear I have as a BA, it's in our wargear, done...

Could it be done, yea... do i think it would Mke the BA feel less special, Of course, i've been playing with some semblnce of my own codex for the last 15+ years...

I don't think rolling them into codex SM would benefit anyone... minus what one month of releases over a span of what 5 years? and i don't think leaving them as their own codex hurts anyone either, minus the one release slot...


I wouldn't mind a supplement, but I'd want one a far cry better then the ones they have out there now
   
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Thatguyhsagun wrote:
 Formosa wrote:
As a dark angels player and long defender of the split codex for space marines I have to say that the supplements have changed my mind, they contain enough space to have all the fluff and rules you need for the unique units and not need to repeat themselves with captains and all the other things they share, it can be done quite easily and will never happen

But they would still need to update the supplement, and on top of that you would pay twice just to have the base models and a bunch of rules you wouldnt neeed.



Wasn't arguing that they should do it,just that they could do it and it would work, like hell do I want it to happen and have to pay for 2 books (again) and I even said they will never do it anyway :-)
   
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Phanixis wrote:


People keep insisting combining SM codices is an intractable problem, allow me to take a crack at the list:

The Fluff - Give each specialist faction half a page, which should enable the fluff associated with BA, SW, BT and DA to fit on 2 pages. This is far more generous than most faction specific fluff given in other army books.

So like, almost no fluff whatsoever? No thanks. Going from a popular fleshed-out chapter in terms of fluff to almost non-existent would be one of the silliest things they could do.


Dante
Tycho
DC Tycho
Mephiston
Corbulo
Lemartes
Astorath
The Sanguinor
Gabriel Seth
(All respective special wargear)

Pick two SC to represent BA and give them a full page each. Incorporate the rest onto a heroes of the Blood Angels summary. A short blurb on each plus rules should only require 1-2 pages for the whole of them. They were able to do it with "The Eight" from the Farsight enclave, so there should be not problem doing that here.
If you mean a supplement, ok, I could see doing that, but it seems like a LOT of work just to fold these guys into another book when it's probably flat-out easier to just keep them in their own. Especially when said book is already made and updating to a new edition will mostly involve some copy/paste with a few edits.

Reclusiarch - Ok, no idea what these are
Promoted Chaplains. Chaps are important to BA because they babysit death company, which is why you could take 2 of these and 3 more chaps as elites if you wanted.

Chaplains as Elites - Just add a line to the chaplain entry saying they count as elites for BA.
Sanguinary Priests (3 in 1) (+ Jump Packs) - Upgrade option for apothecaries
Blood Chalices - Wargear restricted to blood angels

Lots of little foot notes that say "only for BA" that all the other marine players have to ignore.

Sanguinary Guard - Upgrade option for veterans
Assuming that includes giving them artificer armor, angelus guns and glaives, now you have to tell the prospective player that they're fearless, have Ld 10, can only be taken in sets of 5, have no sarge/character, and have different wargear options than veterans. I'd like to see how that looks on the points page. Probably a damn jumbled mess that would make the other marine players even more annoyed that the BA have invaded their book.

Honour Guard with Jump Packs - Just another upgrade option
Furioso Dreadnoughts (+the Frag Cannon) - Upgrade for the dreadnought
Furioso Librarians - Another upgrade for the dreadnought
more footnotes! footnotes and asterisks everywhere! BA can become known as the Footnote Marines! Or maybe asterisk marines.

Death Company - Upgrade for assault squads
Like sanguinary guard above, you have to tell the player that he no longer has a sergeant, the unit has a different unit size, the unit is 0-1 per detachment, and list the special rules and stat changes, as well as outlay the DC wargear selection, which is quite large and any DC member can snag things. Again, I'd love to see someone take the assault marine page from C:SM, and adapt it with all this in mind, and put up a picture of it without it looking like a complete catastrophe.

Death Company Dreadnoughts - A third upgrade for the dreadnought
So the dreadnought page is footnotes on footnotes on footnotes?

Assault Squads as troops - Add a line under the assault squad entry saying they count as troops for BA
CT works better, and that would be one of the easy things to do.

Assault Squad wargear options - Just list the additional options
footnote for BA only #2475025025720578

Assault Squad discounted transports - Just drop, Rhinos are cheap as is
Whaaat? Why would we ever drop the jump packs then? Also the assault squads from the normal codex gets this. Why change that? It's one of the few things that DOESN'T need to change to accommodate the BA coming in.


Land Raiders as Transports -
Deep Striking Land Raiders - Add a line in the relevant troops entries saying they may take Lander Raiders as a dedicated transport if running BA, a said Landraiders gain deepstrike

Fast Tanks - Vehicle upgrade available to BA
Baal Predators (Fast, Scout) - Another vehicle upgrade available to BA
More footnotes that would EASILY confuse the hell out of most people trying to read the codex and figure out what the hell they can or can't take. Anyone familiar with the previous codex might be able to hash it out, but someone new wouldn't be able to make heads or tails of this footnote maze you've created.


So that is 1/2 page to fluff, 3-4 pages to SC, 15 or so (depending on how you count them) upgrade options, 6 pieces of wargear, a chapters tactics substitution, 2 pages of psychic powers, and adding divination as a power available to librarians. This has got to be 8 pages tops, and that is assuming you retain everything. Certain entries, like the large number of special characters which account for nearly half of the extra pages needed, were probably introduced as padding and could be cut done. In any case, you are not doubling the size of C:SM by doing this. It is quite practical.
Not believable in the slightest. You're not even counting all the lines of text making other things longer by adding footnotes everywhere. Some of the units are still going to need their own fluff entry, or do you plan on putting a footnote in the book that says "go buy BA 5th edition book for explanation" on a bunch of the units?


It is good to see that GW is finally getting codices updated in a decent period of time. But I would vastly prefer they spend there time getting the core armies right, keeping them up to date, making all the options in a given codex function, and ensuring a single codex enables numerous play styles, rather than fleshing out arbitrarily chosen subfactions. Every last core army in 40k needs to be updated and updated correctly, then, and only then, should time be devoted to specialist space marine chapters.

No game with a larger playerbase than ONE is ever going to be balanced. Ever. At any point in its creation. Even tic-tac-toe is unbalanced. If GW waited until they had 100/100 satisfied civilian playtesters for every release, the game wouldn't exist. 100 of anyone, even from the same demographic, can't agree on anything more complex than "it's dinner time." And sometimes not even that. You can go sit in the corner waiting for your holy grail perfect books, I'd rather just get more and more content. More fluff to read, more models to play with, more new game states that occur... Don't strawman this though, I like SOME balance, but not enough that they need to go over the damn books with microscopes before I get to play with it.

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