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Even psyker-heavy armies are shafted when it comes to denying psychic powers at the moment anyway.

The whole system needs an overhaul. Even something as simply as making successful Denial rolls subtract from the number of succesful Manifesting rolls would make things more balanced, but as it is, the defender has to roll a 6 for every single 4+ the caster rolls!

^Ditto.
Witchfires are currently almost pointless. To cast them, you need to roll to manifest, not be denied (And DTW against Witchfires will very consistently be 4+ or at least 5+), roll to hit, roll to wound, and get through armor or cover.
Under anti-ideal circumstances, 7 ROLLS have to be taken to kill anything. (Firing a witchfire against a Space Wolf with a Wolf Tail Talisman, who has FNP.) Meanwhile, Blessings and Summonings only need 2 rolls to go well.

fallinq wrote:Anti-psyker wargear definitely has a place in the new edition, but as everyone has been saying, purity seals should probably be 15 pts. Also, give them a special rule that they can't be equipped to psykers, and that psykers can't join a unit if another character in the unit has purity seals. That makes it more of a "non-psyker" thing.....
The last part of the BT's cross rule could be a little clearer. Does it just prevent these units from benefiting from psykers for DTW, or does it prevent them from benefiting from psychic blessings as well?

Both sensible clarifications. Although doesn't fluff have Librarians wearing Purity Seals like everyone else in the Astartes? Obviously I'm appropriating an existing item of fluff and adding new crunch to it, but if you think of the purity seal as boosting your own natural psychic defenses, rather than nullifying all psychic powers around you, then it makes sense for psykers to have access to it. It would arguably still interfere with anyone ELSE using Blessings on you, because it gives you a kind of hyped-up immune response that makes you reject even beneficial psychic energy coming at you, like a transplant recipient rejecting the donor's kidney or whatever.

fallinq wrote:Also, it seems like maybe Khorne daemons and CSMs should get something. Maybe less focused on defense and more focused on helping them kill the heck out of enemy psykers.

Ooh. Someone should totally make this -- I don't know daemons well enough to have any brilliant ideas off hand.

AnomanderRake wrote:

 SisterSydney wrote:
Anomander, I pondered dropping the Praesidium down to a 4++, actually, but I preferred the idea of it as a superior Storm Shield, because who'd put a (supposed) shard of the Emperor's Armour in anything inferior? Why's that thematically inappropriate? I'm always ready to be convinced.

Termie armour, shard of the Emperor's armour in the shoulder for a 5++ Inv.

As to the thematic inappropriateness it's big, heavy, unwieldy, unsubtle, and to paraphrase some of the counterarguments against giving the Sisters a Storm Eagle variant over in that thread (which I don't have on hand right now) we're taking a too-powerful jack-of-all-trades Mary-Sue sort of terrifying all-purpose tool and trying to hand it to someone who is supposed to have some element of distinctive character beyond "Space Marine with boobs". It feels wrong, sort of like giving the Sisters Terminator armour that also made them immune to Deep Strike mishaps would feel wrong. We'd be giving the Sisters of Battle something too tough for Space Marines to use.

There's a precedent for the Sisters having some kind of invulnerable save shield, though -- the Praesdium Protectiva does that in Codex:Witch Hunters (I think it's even 4++) and it's referenced, albeit not statted up, in the current digi-dex. Plus women in armor with ornate shields are very faithful (oops, no pun intended) to the Sisters' Joan of Arc-inspired look. Arguably their shield should be smaller and more elegant than the full-size Astartes storm shield, because the body it's protecting is smaller and more elegant -- but I don't see why that would change the save.

Waaaghpower wrote:Ironically, the big special rule for Psychic Defense, (Admantium Will), the only rule which non-Psykers can take which exists solely for defending from Psychic Powers, is only useful in armies with lots of Psykers. Sisters of Battle still can't deny worth jack, with a maximum of 6 denied charges in a pure-sister army, and an average of 1 succesful 5+ per turn.

Exactly! Exactly what I'm trying to fix. Of course, the REAL fix would be to rewrite Adamantium Will to better fit the new rules, but GW overlooked that (shock!), and rather than propose a house rule , I prefer to propose homebrew wargear on the theory people will more gladly play against something you paid points for.

Waaaghpower wrote:10 Points is not at all unreasonable, so long as you limit access. You can buy offensive Warp Charges in Inquisition squads for 18 points each.

I'm still struggling with points cost and access -- allowing one per squad is probably too much, but making it HQs only seems too narrow.

Waaaghpower wrote:Really, though, buying 'defensive warp charges' isn't fluffy or cool. True Witch-Haters should make it harder to cast the powers in the first place, and be able to pray their way through witchfires without giving in in the slightest.

Heh. Well, I think of the Sisters as psykers in denial -- gestalt who manifest their powers only in the collective , which is why they're both less dramatic and less dangerous to themselves. But you can fluff these denial dice as "defensive warp charges" or something entirely different, eg willpower, or just leave it open.

 SisterSydney wrote:


Although doesn't fluff have Librarians wearing Purity Seals like everyone else in the Astartes? Obviously I'm appropriating an existing item of fluff and adding new crunch to it, but if you think of the purity seal as boosting your own natural psychic defenses, rather than nullifying all psychic powers around you, then it makes sense for psykers to have access to it. It would arguably still interfere with anyone ELSE using Blessings on you, because it gives you a kind of hyped-up immune response that makes you reject even beneficial psychic energy coming at you, like a transplant recipient rejecting the donor's kidney or whatever.

It's true that Librarians and GK's use purity seals in the fluff. I figured it could be handwaved as the psychic powers cancelling out the benefit, but you could just let psykers take them as well, although that would mean the DTW bonuses would stack, so it introduces other things to consider when costing and such. If units with purity seals can't benefit from blessings, there will have to be a mention of that in the rules for them.

As far as points cost, it's more of an art than a science. Given all the times GW has screwed up points costing, I don't think any of us need to feel too bad when we do it.

Here's an idea for Khorne:

Sigil of Witchslaughter (CSM, Mark of Khorne only): 20 pts
A Sigil of Witchslaughter is a bronze emblem of Khorne drenched in the blood of an enemy psyker who has been slain in honorable combat. It is infused with Khornes hatred of all cowards who seek to hide from combat with their sorcery. The Sigil grants the bearer Adamantium Will. Furthermore, any time the a successful Deny The Witch roll is made against a psychic power targeting the character bearing the Sigil or a unit he is a part of, the psyker who cast the power immediately takes D3 S 6 hits with no armor saves allowed.

I actually think one of the biggest problems with the psychic rules currently is that Deny The Witch only works on Witchfires and the like. So Blessings (which also don't have to roll to hit) have a HUGE rules advantage when it comes to psychic powers, for no real reason.

I know there's precedent for a 4++ Inv Storm Shield Lite on the Sisters, I'm arguing that the Praesidium should be 4++ instead of 3++ for that reason. They're not supposed to be front-line boarding troops that drop into the middle of the enemy and withstand all the retaliatory fire. As to the shield being smaller and more elegant the shield itself means nothing; the generator in the physical object is what provides the save. The issue, then, becomes one of weight; a Space Marine can carry a much heavier shield generator than a Sister by virtue of excessive enhancements. I would also observe that according to the WH40kRP sourcebooks a Storm Shield is an integral field generator whereas a Praesidium is just the shield and is used to parry blows (it provides slightly more protection but you need to roll a parry to use it), which suggests it'd provide a lower Inv save.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On the subject of purity seals why not put forth the theory that there are different sorts? Some Space Marines might have some that ward against the Warp in general, Librarians obviously can't use those or they'd weaken their powers but they might have a different sort that ward against Perils?

Thought up an interesting way for Sisters to have the notorious level of psychic defense they should have without drastically changing them, simply by adding an addition to the Shield of Faith special rule.

Addition to Shield of Faith:
"Furthermore, during the opponent's Psychic Phase, a Sisters of Battle army generates a number of Warp Charges equal to the number of your units and independent characters with this special rule in play and in reserves. A unit with this special rule may use these Warp Charges to attempt to Deny the Witch, but these units may not use any psychic abilities and do not count as Psykers."

 SisterSydney wrote:

fallinq wrote:Also, it seems like maybe Khorne daemons and CSMs should get something. Maybe less focused on defense and more focused on helping them kill the heck out of enemy psykers.

Ooh. Someone should totally make this -- I don't know daemons well enough to have any brilliant ideas off hand.

Preferred Enemy and/or Hatred - Psykers, Brotherhood of Psykers, Psychic Pilot would be the obvious fit. The Demon of Khorne rule is the worst of the 4 gods anyway, and having Hatred or Preferred Enemy against Psykers perfectly fits the fluff. At the moment Demons of Khorne get Furious Charge - which is fine - and Chariot Hammer of Wrath attacks at S7, which is next to useless since there are only two Khorne Chariots and neither get used very often (the Skullcannon is an artillery piece and the Blood Throne is a Dedicated Transport for a single unit, a Herald of Khorne).

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I know there's precedent for a 4++ Inv Storm Shield Lite on the Sisters, I'm arguing that the Praesidium should be 4++ instead of 3++ for that reason. They're not supposed to be front-line boarding troops that drop into the middle of the enemy and withstand all the retaliatory fire. As to the shield being smaller and more elegant the shield itself means nothing; the generator in the physical object is what provides the save. The issue, then, becomes one of weight; a Space Marine can carry a much heavier shield generator than a Sister by virtue of excessive enhancements. I would also observe that according to the WH40kRP sourcebooks a Storm Shield is an integral field generator whereas a Praesidium is just the shield and is used to parry blows (it provides slightly more protection but you need to roll a parry to use it), which suggests it'd provide a lower Inv save.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On the subject of purity seals why not put forth the theory that there are different sorts? Some Space Marines might have some that ward against the Warp in general, Librarians obviously can't use those or they'd weaken their powers but they might have a different sort that ward against Perils?

The Praesedium Protectiva should be 3++. A rosarius which doesn't take up a weapon slot is 4++ making a 4++ Praesidium Protectiva beyond pointless. The Praesidium Protectiva houses a shard of the Emperor's armor, only Palatines and Canonesses can use them. They are holy relics which should convey at least as much protection as a common storm shield.

I looked up the old Praesidum Protectiva rules from Codex:Witch Hunters and was surprised how unimpressive that version is:



Also only 10 points.

So between this and the bit from the RPG, clearly the precedent is for something much smaller and lighter than the big, slablike storm shield. Which is fine, but I really think it should be more impressive, especially with the proliferation of invulnerable saves over editions. So I'd suggest

Praesidium Protectiva: 20 points
Commanders of the Adepta Sororitas often carry these elegant, arcane shields made ages ago of mysterious materials, said by the faithful to include a shard of the God-Emperor's own battle armour. Smaller than an Astartes storm shield and lacking the forcefield generator, a Praesidium Protectiva is nevertheless a nimble defense in close combat, and its very presence steels the Sisters' willpower against witchcraft.
A character with a Praesidium Protectiva gains a 4++ invulnerable save against melee and psychic attacks. (This save does not apply to shooting attacks unless they are also psychic powers). A character with Praesidium Protectiva may never gain the +1 Attack bonus for having two close combat weapons.
In addition, the character and her unit gain a +1 bonus to all Deny The Witch rolls. This bonus may be taken in addition to Adamantium Will, but a unit may not take this bonus and a bonus from friendly psykers.
Costing: The save's half as good as a Storm Shield, since you can only use it half the time, but then it basically gives you extra Adamantium Will, so it's 20 pts / 2 = 10, +10 = 20 again.

Marik Law wrote:Thought up an interesting way for Sisters to have the notorious level of psychic defense they should have without drastically changing them, simply by adding an addition to the Shield of Faith special rule.

Addition to Shield of Faith:
"Furthermore, during the opponent's Psychic Phase, a Sisters of Battle army generates a number of Warp Charges equal to the number of your units and independent characters with this special rule in play and in reserves. A unit with this special rule may use these Warp Charges to attempt to Deny the Witch, but these units may not use any psychic abilities and do not count as Psykers."

That's probably the best way to fix this problem, but I try to homebrew new units and wargear to use with the existing rules rather than rewrite rules or add new abilities for free, on the theory that people are more likely to play against something if you had to pay extra points for it. Hence my 10-point Purity Seals, which I'm still pretty happy with: every Imperial IC or squad can get one, and it gives you the equivalent of one warp die a turn that you can only use to defend that unit against psychic powers.

 SisterSydney wrote:
I looked up the old Praesidum Protectiva rules from Codex:Witch Hunters and was surprised how unimpressive that version is:

Spoiler:

Believed to contain shards of armour worn by the Emperor Himself, this shield can be used to defend against enemies assaulting the bearer. A model equipped with a Praesidium Protectiva may take a 4+ Invulnerable save in an assault instead of her normal armour save. The save may only be used against one opponent per turn (the defender chooses which one). Although not a weapon as such, a Praesidium Protectiva must be carried in one hand and therefore takes the place of one single-handed weapon.

Also only 10 points.

So between this and the bit from the RPG, clearly the precedent is for something much smaller and lighter than the big, slablike storm shield. Which is fine, but I really think it should be more impressive, especially with the proliferation of invulnerable saves over editions.

It's the exact same rules as Storm Shields in Codex: Daemon Hunters, so no precedent at all.

Oh, I didn't know that -- so the old Storm Shield was also "4++ versus one opponent in close combat," rather than a universal 3++?

The easy fix is that psychic defense (call it whatever you want) gives you 1 extra die to Deny the Witch, and makes you generate one less die in your own phase.
That way, if you're taking them to deny the witch, you can't really run them with a psychic heavy army as they are taking dice away from you.

-Matt

Honestly, I know this doesn't seem to come up a lot, but I've always felt like the fact that Tau minds have pretty much 0 warp presence should provide some form of psychic protection for them. Obviously stuff like manifesting fireballs and such don't immediately fizzle out because of this fact, but things like psychic shrieks, mind war, all kinds of telepathy and mind control effects, I always felt like they should should have a hard time against Tau since they effectively don't have anything to target.

Of course any rule like that would probably add unnecessary complexity by defining exactly which powers don't work as well, so it's probably for the best that it doesn't happen.

 dementedwombat wrote:
Honestly, I know this doesn't seem to come up a lot, but I've always felt like the fact that Tau minds have pretty much 0 warp presence should provide some form of psychic protection for them. Obviously stuff like manifesting fireballs and such don't immediately fizzle out because of this fact, but things like psychic shrieks, mind war, all kinds of telepathy and mind control effects, I always felt like they should should have a hard time against Tau since they effectively don't have anything to target.

Of course any rule like that would probably add unnecessary complexity by defining exactly which powers don't work as well, so it's probably for the best that it doesn't happen.

You could get a little bit of this effect by giving Tau extra dispel dice against Maledictions, but many things that debuff the opponent AREN'T Maledictions (even though they should be) so it's only a partial fix. Make everything that penalizes an opponent's unit Maledictions (if it's a Witchfire then it can be Witchfire AND Malediction) and then give Tau units a single extra dispel dice when targeted by Maledictions. Boom. Problem solved.

I also think that an opponent's unit should get a chance to Deny the Witch if they're within, say, 24" of a psyker or target unit when a psyker casts Blessings. As it is, Blessings not having to roll to hit and not being deniable makes them much better than any other psychic power.

 SisterSydney wrote:
Oh, I didn't know that -- so the old Storm Shield was also "4++ versus one opponent in close combat," rather than a universal 3++?

No, it was just a 4++ in general.

Ok, so the Storm Shield has always provided more protection than the Praesidium Protectica, which fits with the PP being a smaller, lighter shield: not something big enough to take cover behind when under enemy fire, but something you actively move between yourself and an enemy in close combat. I'm happy with my "3++ only in assault" version, then.

 dementedwombat wrote:
... I've always felt like the fact that Tau minds have pretty much 0 warp presence should provide some form of psychic protection for them.....

A good point. There's a great thread on Tau and other Filthy Xeno anti-psyker wargear you should check out here.

HawaiiMatt wrote:The easy fix is that psychic defense (call it whatever you want) gives you 1 extra die to Deny the Witch, and makes you generate one less die in your own phase.
That way, if you're taking them to deny the witch, you can't really run them with a psychic heavy army as they are taking dice away from you.

-Matt

Exalted. This is brilliant. Elegant, simple, and self-balancing.

Definitely something for the "we don't need no stinkin' psykers" armies -- Sisters and Templars. Not sure about giving it to the rest of the Imperium. What do folks think?

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 SisterSydney wrote:
Oh, I didn't know that -- so the old Storm Shield was also "4++ versus one opponent in close combat," rather than a universal 3++?

No, it was just a 4++ in general.

No, before it was a 3++ it was a 4++ in CC, before THAT it was a 4++ in combat agains one foe.

I think a good way to even it out would to be to give an addition dispel dice to things that grant a bonus to dispel the witch for armies that don't have psykers.

i.e. gloom prism grants +2 to deny the witch and +2 dispel dice