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SW - Please don't get bogged down with this. I think this is quickly turning into too many chefs in the kitchen. Stick to the concept art please.

 Zywus wrote:
If anything, I believe people will be more perplexed if the models turn out looking like this:


rather than this:


The latter is much more in line with my expectations.

Those chainmail bodies do look super rad!

I'd be much happier if you stick to what you showed in the update as I think it fits well with what you showed with the KS,

I like the mixed armour and think it's useful both as representing a force where perhaps most of the women can't afford the plate

it also provides the option of using the army sized deals (lots of us have multiple boxes coming) to put together a small unit in plate (elites are always useful) and a larger ones in chain

As long a there's a poll, no worries here - obviously there have been quite a few folks posting about both preferences. But I don't think what we've seen is what most were expecting for the spare torsos, and it's a bigger deal with the 5th normal torso not making it onto the sprue... so worth asking about.

The idea that these could form a separate, more armored unit with how they look now is kind of the point - they don't match the existing unit and would reduce the appeal of the box set going forward, imo.

If you try to do everything (Rangers, Chainmail armored Shieldmaidens, Heavy/Plate armored Shieldmaidens) you end up with a kit that does a little of everything but not one thing really well. So just trying to avoid that...

I just though of something perhaps more important--the bases. Please tell me you won't be using the deep dish bases that came with the mountain orcs for the shieldmaidens. They were completely unusable with the orcs and will just look odd with any other miniatures.

@RiTides
We weren't thinking of doing a triple use with the 2 spare bodies, with all sincerity we just went on doing what we promised.
Also, the 5th body still has a chance to fit in but without being sure we dare not say anything.

@BobtheInquisitor
Actually yes, but if you prefer us sending you 20mm bases instead of the 25mm square with lip, just send us a message and we'll add it to the closing remarks of your pledge :-)

I believe that's not the intention - but it is the result! So I hope you consider it - and I won't post further about it until there is (hopefully) a poll or similar.

 MLaw wrote:
SW - Please don't get bogged down with this. I think this is quickly turning into too many chefs in the kitchen. Stick to the concept art please.

Seriously. Design by committee is a terrible idea. Stick with your vision and don't let a vocal minority sway you.

~Eric

 Taarnak wrote:

 MLaw wrote:
SW - Please don't get bogged down with this. I think this is quickly turning into too many chefs in the kitchen. Stick to the concept art please.

Seriously. Design by committee is a terrible idea. Stick with your vision and don't let a vocal minority sway you.

~Eric

I would tend to agree - but then we are also a vocal minority

My 2 cents.

I think the new bodies look fine from the belly down. The combination of different armor (obviously looted) with basic ringmail works. That said, the plate cuirass really doesn't work with the rest. If you want to go with heavy torso armor I'd go with a hard leather cuirass. It would fit with the concept better. Another idea would be scrap armor held together with chain mail (something your village blacksmith could cobble together from a captured breastplate).

 Shieldwolf Miniatures wrote:
@RiTides
We weren't thinking of doing a triple use with the 2 spare bodies, with all sincerity we just went on doing what we promised.
Also, the 5th body still has a chance to fit in but without being sure we dare not say anything.

@BobtheInquisitor
Actually yes, but if you prefer us sending you 20mm bases instead of the 25mm square with lip, just send us a message and we'll add it to the closing remarks of your pledge :-)

It sounds like you have enough complications. I'll just use some of the Proxie Models bases I already have and use your bases for terrain or something. Hopefully your big lipped bases won't bother any of your other customers.

 Zywus wrote:
If anything, I believe people will be more perplexed if the models turn out looking like this:


rather than this:


The latter is much more in line with my expectations.

Basically, that is me. To the point that, right now, if what I'll end up getting is the first pic, I'd rather get a refund, honestly. I really have no use for that. Much less 4 boxes of them.

Expressing my personal opinion only I find the bodies pretty nice and I have no problem with the combined and 'heavier' armoured ones.

People keep posting pictures of historical armory and photos of Lagertha, which I find a bit unfair. Shieldmaidens are not supposed to represent actual and historically real female warriors but a fantasy version of them. I feel that many keep forgetting about this. Fantasy miniatures (and in these case high fantasy, it is not Game of Thrones) are supposed (and up to a point) expected to go beyond realism. The presented bodies do not go extreme with these and find a good balance, I think.

Finally if I understand well the image showing the assembled mini, is not supposed to represent a ranger model but to demonstrate the combination possibilities of all the different parts. If someone does not like this combination of heavier armour and hood can just ignore it when assembling the minis. Opinions have been already expressed, which find this combination interesting (for some kind of warrior priest).

If Shieldwolf decides to proceed with a poll about the final version, as has done so, many times already, it is fine. However I would be fine for me as well if these were the final versions.

 corgan wrote:
People keep posting pictures of historical armory and photos of Lagertha, which I find a bit unfair.

Other people just post pics of the "armored" renders shown during the KS, though. And I don't find that unfair at all.

 Albertorius wrote:

 corgan wrote:
People keep posting pictures of historical armory and photos of Lagertha, which I find a bit unfair.

Other people just post pics of the "armored" renders shown during the KS, though. And I don't find that unfair at all.

Fair enough. But referring to pictures already provided by the manufacturer is a more solid reference point, as the manufacturer is the one having the initiative.

My point is that Shieldwolf has to make a decision on the final version and go on with, otherwise it is going to be an endless effort to satisfy everyone, which I think is never going to happen.

 corgan wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

 corgan wrote:
People keep posting pictures of historical armory and photos of Lagertha, which I find a bit unfair.

Other people just post pics of the "armored" renders shown during the KS, though. And I don't find that unfair at all.

Fair enough. But referring to pictures already provided by the manufacturer is a more solid reference point, as the manufacturer is the one having the initiative.

My point is that Shieldwolf has to make a decision on the final version and go on with, otherwise it is going to be an endless effort to satisfy everyone, which I think is never going to happen.

OTOH, many of the people wanting "armored" (actually, covered) options stated here and on the KS that the reason was so as to make them more "historical looking" and less objectified than the "regular" bare midriffed versions. Would you agree on that the new renders don't exactly fill any of those two needs?

I think that they fill well a more fantasy approach but I do agree they do not do so regarding a more 'historically accurate' one. I hadn't realised that people were actually expecting historically accurate models, as the fantasy element would always be there in any case, and Shieldwolf was clear on that. My apologies if I missed this detail, as long as I was mainly expecting fantasy oriented minis.

The way it was presented in the campaign was a response to feedback - folks were viewing this as a chance to field a unit of realistic viking-like warriors. A major hindrance to that was the two bare midriff sculpts, and the "non-bare midriff" stretch goal was added in response to that, and frequently pointed to as such. Similarly with the "non-wavy hair" stretch goal. Both were presented in this light.

For me, there are plenty of other companies making less plausible looking female warriors - Kingdom Death and Ragong Heroes in particular. I backed this (which happened to run close or alongside the "Heroines in Sensible Shoes" campaign, for realistic female D&D minis) and not those because these stretch goals looked to give me what I wanted, while also having the bare midriffs and wavy hair sculpts for those who were looking for something more "fantasy".

But I was kind of shocked to see these renders as they specifically referred to these as "non-bare midriff" sculpts for all the folks asking for warrior-looking models. These latest renders don't fit that at all... honestly, the stretch goal map pic was tiny and I never realized they were planning "boob armor". It ruins the "Lagertha" look in my mind, and while some other armor would be fine, I don't think what is shown matches the concept art or what was talked about during the campaign.

I hadn't intended to post again but I just wanted to give that context, of how these stretch goals were presented and how folks like myself specifically backed in response to them, as Shieldwolf seemed to be listening to feedback and providing a way to field a true warrior-looking unit. I was really disappointed by the new renders in this light =/

Finally, and regardless of all of the above, I really do think they clash with the Rangers bits badly from an aesthetic point of view:



Whereas something closer to the originals would work much better:



It's hard to know how many folks would be happy with the two new body sculpts as they are (first pic), or with a change to be more like what others were expecting (second pic), without making a poll of some sort. So, I really hope you'll follow through on that!

RiTides wrote:I believe that's not the intention - but it is the result! So I hope you consider it - and I won't post further about it until there is (hopefully) a poll or similar.

Yes, hopefully that poll launches soon!

Yep, and I noted above that I hadn't intended to post on that again, but wanted to clarify the context of why people were expecting something different. There was a lot of feedback about this during the campaign, and those stretch goals were always pointed out as a response to it... just a bummer that either way a portion of backers are going to feel surprised by the outcome =/

Look, if you do go historical for this fantasy thing.. despite the concept art, I'll be looking for a refund. I don't want vikings. I didn't pledge for vikings. With the heavier armor mixed in, it allows for people to use the kits for things other than freaking Lagertha. What you showed in the update got me excited because it meant with a few simple weapon swaps I would be set up for some Sisters of Sigmar.

If what we were shown during the pledging period isn't what we're going to see, regardless of people's feelings or polls or other mess.. that's not fair to people. I didn't want you to change the midriffs, that didn't matter because of some loudmouths and now the same thing is going to happen all over again..

I hope the "boob plate" stays. I can use these as a different unit or RPG characters, or as unit champion, etc. I like what has been shown.

 MLaw wrote:
SW - Please don't get bogged down with this. I think this is quickly turning into too many chefs in the kitchen. Stick to the concept art please.

Too many cooks?

Angelos is missing from HQ so he is not here atm but he said he will have a new look on the KS page,Facebok,forums etc on Monday.He said he will decide the course of action this coming week.

Also,please do not refer to refunds in this manner.Apart from the fact the refund policy was from day one of the campaign on the front page(+ we reminded backers in the last update to make sure it is very clear how the refund policy works since we consider ourselves professionals and will certainly deliver the rewards),it also sheds bad light on the project,something that the project does not deserve.People not knowing what this is about,when reading I want a refund is bad.And unfair in all honesty.
Thank you for your support.

Georgios.

I didn't back the Shieldmaiden project because warrior women are not my variety of fantasy, so take my opinions for what little they are worth.

1. I think the previewed components look great, and actually gave me a little bit of heartburn about not pledging. They look cool, and are clearly very well sculpted with plastic tooling in mind. With Renedra tooling these, they are going to look phenomenal.

2. If I were a miniatures manufacturer, the comments surrounding this kickstarter and these most recent renders has convinced me not to touch female miniatures with a ten foot pole. You can't win. This is a topic that clearly inspires strong feelings in members of the community, the majority of which seem to be negative. Every step is a mis-step with a third of your customer base.

3. To my untrained, un-pledged, and admittedly un-interested eye, the bodies seems like a nice compromise between "The Lagertha" side of the spectrum and the "Kingdom DDeath" side of the spectrum. You can't make all of the kit as Lagertha clones, you can't make them all as Red Sonja types. If anything, the pendulum is swung in favor of Lagertha pretty heavily.

4.I agree whole-heartedly that the cries for "refund" are premature and unfair to a company that wildly modified their original shieldmaiden concepts to be responsive to the market. The problem with any ambiguity in any kickstarter is that people fill in the unsculpted miniatures with the version that would be most perfect for them in their heads. The actual finished product will never(rarely?) live up to their expectations. In my mind, the Mantic Basileans were so amazing...

5. I agree that the two extra stretch goal bodies are more heavily armored than the original 4. This makes them look distinctive from the original 4. I can understand why that would annoy people who play ranked fantasy battle games. I think what happened was Shieldwolf heard the cries of "less midriffs" and "more sensible armor!" and interpreted that as "more heavily armored!". It seems to me to be a reasonable interpretation or mistake, depending on your viewpoint.

6. From a business standpoint, I would absolutely not run a poll unless you already know what the outcome will be. If you are at all uncertain you risk making 50% of your customers feel like they were "robbed" by the majority. Once they cast a vote, they become more emotionally connected to the outcome. Some people who don't like the bodies now may like them more in 6 months, some who like them now may like them less in 6 months. I have personally already gone through a cycle of "those are great, to "eh..they are just ok" and back to "those are great!" in the space of typing this response. If a backer cast a vote, it will only magnify their attachment and response to any outcome other than their own. Humans are risk averse, this means that the emotional pain of a loss outweighs the emotional gain of a win, even if the loss and win are of the same magnitude. The losers of the poll will get more unhappy than the winners will get happy. The shifting opinions and risk aversion work against Shieldwolf since the more vocal people you have hammering on about unrealistic boob-armor/female representation in miniatures or how some crusading loudmouth minority spoil the fun in everything (respectively) the more likely they are to sway other people to their side.

 RiTides wrote:

If you try to do everything (Rangers, Chainmail armored Shieldmaidens, Heavy/Plate armored Shieldmaidens) you end up with a kit that does a little of everything but not one thing really well. So just trying to avoid that...

There's an element of truth to this.

Still, I think you guys should decide and push on with what you think is going to work best.

Original designs and concepts looked best to me, the redesign based on a minority of backer feedback looks more like a knight/ paladin or holy nun than a wild warrior tribe.

They both look good, but are very different models. The originals are something I'd use for 9th Age chaos barbarians or KoW Varagnur, the full plate armour redesign is something I'd use for Sisters of Sigmar or KoW Basileans.

Just my two cents, I only threw in a token $1 to support the project due to lack of funds, so the end result doesn't matter much to me either way. Will probably buy some either way, once they're done.

It's one of the reasons why I'm increasingly taking the approach of waiting for retail rather than backing Kickstarters if the end result isn't fixed in stone, I like to see what I get before paying.

Getting bogged down in a morass of demands and trying to please everyone isn't good for a small company trying to become established, this was the reason given for the first KS being canceled, but the same thing is happening now that it's in production.

 Gallahad wrote:

6. From a business standpoint, I would absolutely not run a poll unless you already know what the outcome will be. If you are at all uncertain you risk making 50% of your customers feel like they were "robbed" by the majority. Once they cast a vote, they become more emotionally connected to the outcome. Some people who don't like the bodies now may like them more in 6 months, some who like them now may like them less in 6 months. I have personally already gone through a cycle of "those are great, to "eh..they are just ok" and back to "those are great!" in the space of typing this response. If a backer cast a vote, it will only magnify their attachment and response to any outcome other than their own. Humans are risk averse, this means that the emotional pain of a loss outweighs the emotional gain of a win, even if the loss and win are of the same magnitude. The losers of the poll will get more unhappy than the winners will get happy. The shifting opinions and risk aversion work against Shieldwolf since the more vocal people you have hammering on about unrealistic boob-armor/female representation in miniatures or how some crusading loudmouth minority spoil the fun in everything (respectively) the more likely they are to sway other people to their side.

very much this

you had your polls before the KS, you made your decisions based on the results and your feelings about your business, re-running them is just going to end up with upset people and more chance of them asking for refunds (which you'll refuse which will then upset them more and create a group who will be invested in badmouthing you anywhere they can in future, complaining to KS etc)

Personally I think this is such an amazing deal that I will absolutely NOT be asking for a refund, whichever design you guys go with, despite my vague anti-boobplate sentiments.

It came up in the KS comments that folks thought this would be leather armor (which would match much better) rather than plate from the art. So, that could also explain some of the confusion.

Thanks for the update on your plans Shieldwolf, looking forward to what Amgelos has to say!