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 MLaw wrote:
SW - Please don't get bogged down with this. I think this is quickly turning into too many chefs in the kitchen. Stick to the concept art please.

I couldn't agree more.

 RiTides wrote:
It came up in the KS comments that folks thought this would be leather armor (which would match much better) rather than plate from the art. So, that could also explain some of the confusion.

Thanks for the update on your plans Shieldwolf, looking forward to what Amgelos has to say!

That's surely a matter of paint more than anything else though, no? The form of a boiled leather cuirass and a metal one aren't going to be that different, and you'd struggle to tell the difference from looking if both had a lacquered finish.

Good point Yodhrin - that might be a good middle ground solution too.

I'm less concerned that it looks like plate and more concerned that it looks like a couple of footballs that's been stuck on her chest. the one with the fur is fine as it covers it up somewhat, but the one without just look ridiculous frankly. I backed when the SG 'covered midriffs' was reached solely on those renders. and if there are more then one of those ridiculous torso in each box I shan't be happy. But then I'm just one person, what does that matter.

overtyrant wrote:
I'm less concerned that it looks like plate and more concerned that it looks like a couple of footballs that's been stuck on her chest.

And now we've reached new heights of hyperbole...

~Eric


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Yodhrin wrote:

That's surely a matter of paint more than anything else though, no? The form of a boiled leather cuirass and a metal one aren't going to be that different, and you'd struggle to tell the difference from looking if both had a lacquered finish.

Yes, great idea.

Do we know how big these minis will be? They come with a lot of spare heads, right? So, if those heads fit on some Gripping Beast Vikings or even some Mantic Men at Arms, we can have the disciplined rank and file and use the Shieldwolf bits for the heroes and more characterful or chaotic units.

As much as I think the boob plate on the right looks excessive in the render, it makes a lot more sense for a warrior woman kit than the bare midriffs. Since there are extra bodies, I don't need to use them, or I can simply replace the upper halves with some spare WGF torsos or something.

Anyway, I won't be asking for a refund. I'll almost certainly buy boxes of any new plastic kits they tool, too, and perhaps extras of the Shieldmaidens kit if it goes together well...and I have the money.

Ha, some people won't be happy until they put female heads on male bodies, furious and appalled at any hint of female form. In a fantasy setting :-)

I think RiTides hit the nail on the head there, and Gallahad makes a similar point: The kit is trying to do two things at once, without much success.

The pendulum is swung more towards "Women fighters with a moderately high level of verisimilitude", but with enough "cheese cake fantasy" elements remaining that they sort of hit a sour note. They aren't quite "serious fighters" enough to make them a solid, different option in the world of miniatures, and not fantastical enough to stand along with over the top fantasy. Realistic enough that one expects more internal consistency, as opposed to big late era breast plates, with emphasis on the breast.

Personally, I would prefer models that with a weapon and shield swap could fit in well with very nice, low magic style fantasy worlds. I am thinking Lord of the Rings or the like. A bare midriff is not out of place there, but the boob plate kind of is. Even without those swaps, I don't think these would be too far out of place as is, sans boob plate that is.

With the boob plate and so many bare midriffs, I kind of can't help but feel that they are edging into the more heavily congested area of "sexy warrior women". Of which I can assure you I own many a model! Are they better than those models? Maybe some, but not that many. It feels like they need to be a little more Red Sonya, or a little less, but where they are at the moment with the strange mix of savage with primitive furs and chain and later period plate bits that are still sorta sexified is kind of an awkward place.

To put it yet another way, the current design trend for male warriors is "More roided out, more giant armor plates, more huge pauldrons." It works (sort of) for individual characters such as in World of Warcraft or very small scale games, but when they are all lined up together the effect is lost and it just turns into beings that are hardly recognizable as human. There is a lot of success to be had by pushing in the opposite direction of the trend and making male models that look like feasible men with feasible levels of armor. It often makes for a more striking model because it is more approachable, and we can imagine ourselves in his shoes because instead of an over the top genetically engineered warrior who knows nothing but skulls and war, he is a guy a lot like us who probably has a home, with maybe a wife and a few kids running around, and it takes balls to leave that behind and go put your life on the line. Even a basic rank and file guy can be imagined as a character, as opposed to a one dimensional characterization .
So yea, by limiting the secondary characteristics that define the gender of the model, in this case "bare bellies, no bulging muscles, long hair, and boobs," you make a much more approachable character as opposed to a sign that says "This is a woman with a sword". Not get rid of bellies and boobs entirely, mind you! Just that less is often more when it comes to those characteristics that send such a strong signal.

Boobs with armor was in the concept art for the campaign. Why pledge for something you know you won't like? Is it with hopes you can convince the project creator to alter their vision?

MLaw, that kind of statement is really frustrating because it's obvious that there was a misunderstanding on the part of many backers (myself included, obviously). Here's the interaction that happened with Shieldwolf before and during the campaign, when a lot of people like myself who had reservations were convinced to come on board and pledge:

---------------------------------
Backer - I like the renders of the plastic minis but I have some concerns. The weapon hafts look too large, they're not posed, and the exposed midriffs make them seem like they are not serious warriors. Can any of these be addressed?

Creator - Yes, we are taking on feedback and all of them will be! The weapon hafts may not be this large, it depends on the diameter that works for plastic tooling. The renders are not yet posed, and will be much more dynamic. Finally, we will be adding 2 more bodies without exposed midriffs for those who are concerned about that. We have also taken people's feedback about the wavy hair into consideration, and will be making alternate heads without it! Both of these are stretch goals that will add value to the kit.
---------------------------------


I'm paraphrasing a LOT of interactions here, but again, it's just frustrating that people don't seem to realize that a lot of us were genuinely surprised by these renders. I unfortunately was busy enough that I didn't notice how the art for the 2 spare bodies (which I thought was just a concept) was so different from the ones in the kit, and that's completely my fault. However, on the main page it was shown pretty small... it is only shown large in that update with the vote.

I will also say, that I understand if Shieldwolf doesn't want to make any change, as they have done what they were always intending to do. But it's just a bummer, because the feeling during the campaign for many backers like myself was "Yes, they listened to feedback! They'll make more torsos that will let us build serious looking warriors!"

I totally get that I was mistaken on this, and that Shieldwolf wanted to (as they've expressed now) tie the plastic kit in to their resin heroes, which do indeed have that look. I was actually really perplexed that they were willing to make a (in my mind awesome) plastic kit that didn't exactly match the resin heroes. But to be honest, I was really happy about it because I haven't seen a lot of people after the resin heroes - they are OK... but the plastic renders shown for the campaign are just awesome.


--------------------------------------

Finally, regarding the vision and matching the concept art... I'm not quite sure where people are coming from there, as it doesn't match the concept art that well from what I can see. One of the concept art models clearly has leather / fur wrapped boots... or at least, it's clear to me in looking at it, am I off on that? Whereas these two renders do not have that element... Backers also voted down the concept that was the most clearly "plate armor"... so, regardless of what you think about the prior issue, the question of whether these two bodies really fit in well with the unit remains (and is really valid I think - you simply can't say that super rough pencil concept art was enough to determine how these would look in the unit). I personally don't think they match very well at all, and I was expecting some torsos that would... so again, another misunderstanding from interactions during the campaign (and only being able to see the original renders that were complete).

No ill will towards Shieldwolf, and I definitely rescind my call for a vote - at this point, I don't think it would help anything. Ideally, they'll be able to fit in the 5th torso and make it more like what people were thinking the non-bare-midriff torsos would be, and then that should hopefully make everyone happy. Cheers for the spirited debate, at least

I do concept art so perhaps for me, there's a bit of a different understanding or expectation.. I dunno. What I see when I look at the render and the concept art, are fairly close in tone if not in detail. The notion is called proof of concept. Maybe everything won't match exactly but when you look at the art it should at least put you in the mind frame for what you're going to see.

Moreover, if the concept art was so crude, or didn't offer a vision of what would be produced, then why on Earth would anyone back that? The concept art and all the other sculpts and renders and everything.. it's all the same flavor. Claiming to be surprised when we don't see something different from everything else is just baffling to me.

ArtIsGreat wrote:
Ha, some people won't be happy until they put female heads on male bodies, furious and appalled at any hint of female form. In a fantasy setting :-)

Nope, I love cheese cake, the more the better. Just not what I wanted here with the coverd midrift SG.

overtyrant wrote:

ArtIsGreat wrote:
Ha, some people won't be happy until they put female heads on male bodies, furious and appalled at any hint of female form. In a fantasy setting :-)

Nope, I love cheese cake, the more the better. Just not what I wanted here with the coverd midrift SG.

This, basically. The SG was specifically stated during the campaign so as to allay the problem some people (me among them) had voiced about the fact that bare midriffed females just don't look like serious fighters to our eyes. So, funnily enough, that's what we where expecting. Also, the rough concepts were both very rough and kind of small, so most people went for the renders shown during the campaign.

Now, instead of (a certain amount of) people was expecting, the new renders show fantasy female supermodel breastplates tacked on to the furs. And that very same people gets disappointed, because they can't really make the serious fantasy fighters they were expecting.

Also, "it's fantasy, so anything goes" is argumentum ad fireballum, which doesn't hold much water in my mind. Not every fantasy setting is tits-out crazy, you know. Nor should it be. Also, funnily enough, many of the most popular fantasy setting aren't tits-out crazy.

Only in this kind of discussion could an almost completely-covered female figure with a plain formed breastplate be referred to as "tits-out crazy" with a straight face.

No, it's not historically-accurate Viking garb, and no, "it's fantasy" isn't a blanket excuse for cheesecake, but these are models for a fantasy world so complaining they don't fit real-world historical periods because X style of mail wouldn't have been combined with Y style of plate is a nonsense, and this isn't cheesecake by any rational measure.

If you don't like the style, fine, but can we please stop pretending Shieldwolf promised Lagertha but gave you Stripperina the Barbarian, when what they promised was "we'll give you stuff without bare midrifs" and delivered.

 Yodhrin wrote:
Only in this kind of discussion could an almost completely-covered female figure with a plain formed breastplate be referred to as "tits-out crazy" with a straight face.

You might notice that I did not refer to the boobplate as "tits-out crazy", but to the notion that because it's fantasy anything goes. Most good fantasy looks plausible and practical.

No, it's not historically-accurate Viking garb, and no, "it's fantasy" isn't a blanket excuse for cheesecake, but these are models for a fantasy world so complaining they don't fit real-world historical periods because X style of mail wouldn't have been combined with Y style of plate is a nonsense, and this isn't cheesecake by any rational measure.

You might also notice that I did not complain about fitting any real-world historical period because yadda yadda. What I said is that I can't take seriously a warrior dressed like that, with chainmail and hide armor eveywhere except the most vulnerable parts of the body. It simply makes it look stupid. Full on naked? Bring it on. Gladiatorial cheesecake? I'd be up for it. Bare midriff in an otherwise covered and armored "serious warrior"? Boobplates in anything that doesn't at least try to look like a greek or roman, or full on "fantasy plate"? Please

So please, don't answer to the argument I'm not making if you're answering to me.

If you don't like the style, fine, but can we please stop pretending Shieldwolf promised Lagertha but gave you Stripperina the Barbarian, when what they promised was "we'll give you stuff without bare midrifs" and delivered.

See above.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyways: this is Shieldwolf's project and they'll do what they think is best for the line. And they seem to be very accomodating, going by the KS page:

A crowdfunding project may inevitably carry risks we had not (or could not) foresee. However here at Shieldwolf Miniatures we hold very dearly to our reputation! We don't do excuses! For this reason we are offering a money-back guarantee (just like we did in our first Kickstarter project) to prove the dedication we have in this project. If for any reason you do not like what you receive, please mail them back within 30 days of receiving your rewards; we will refund you 100%, fees included, no questions asked.

That's a great policy, so kudos to them.

Ah, I forgot about that policy! That is indeed awesome of them - cheers.

While watching the latest episode, I noticed this:

 corgan wrote:
While watching the latest episode, I noticed this:

Spoiler:

And that looks natural, what was shown in the renders looks nothing like that, not even remotely.

I am just not convinced that the boiled leather with molded breasts can be reasonably argued to move the miniatures from "reasonably practical" armor to "unreasonable and impractical" armor. I think you guys are being unreasonable.

They are pretty heavily armored. The boiled leather or plate is on top of chain-mail. There is no cleavage window,no bare midriff, and they aren't showing much if any skin. They are more heavily armored than all the dark age "barbarian" historical miniatures I can think of off the top of my head (vikings, saxon fyrdmen, celts), they are also way more heavily armored than any comparable "barbarian" fantasy miniatures I can think of (GW Mauraders, GW Bloodbound Bloodsoakers of Bloodyness, Copplestone Barbarians, Bronze Age Barbarians).

Wasn't there a stretch goal to include bits to cover the exposed midriffs on the regular 4 bodies? People threatening to ask for a refund if the miniatures don't match exactly what they wanted, seems a little petulant to me.

If the cleavage in the boiled leather was made less pronounced would that satisfy people? Is it the individual breasts themselves that move the miniature from "serious warrior" to "cheesecake"? I'm not being facetious. If she had a man's boiled leather breastplate on over the chainmail, would she then qualify as "serious business"?

I can understand the "Hey, these ladies have boiled leather armor over their chainmail, the other's don't" argument, but that doesn't seem to be the issue.

I don't think anyone has asked for a refund? At least I haven't. The problem (for me) with the one render on the right is that the breast plate does not look right and looks really silly, like a couple of footballs been glued on. Sort that out and I will be happy.

 corgan wrote:
While watching the latest episode, I noticed this:

Spoiler:

That looks quite a bit more sensible. It looks like a full breastplate instead of a plate "bikini" (for lack of a better word), it actually looks like hardened leather (whereas the ones from the sheildmaidens look very much like metal plate due to the design), and the breasts section look more natural, even though the form still looks kind of stupid to me (because taking all hits to the sternum is not good, you know ).

But more than anything, that one looks like it belongs with the rest of the outfit.

Yeah, I am a fan of Yara's boiled leather breastplate and would be happy to see shieldmaidens looking like that (but not so happy with boobplate). I figure that boobplate can be modified to be a bit more like Yara's armour with some green stuff, though I would prefer not to have to.

 Gallahad wrote:
I am just not convinced that the boiled leather with molded breasts can be reasonably argued to move the miniatures from "reasonably practical" armor to "unreasonable and impractical" armor. I think you guys are being unreasonable.

Well, for starters the renders don't really look like leather, but plate, at least to me. If you want to go that way, I'd rather see them go for a full cuirass instead of a "bra". Something like this:



A classic muscle cuirass could also look very cool IMHO, in case they want the minis to look more cheesecakey:


(female version, ofc).

If the cleavage in the boiled leather was made less pronounced would that satisfy people? Is it the individual breasts themselves that move the miniature from "serious warrior" to "cheesecake"? I'm not being facetious. If she had a man's boiled leather breastplate on over the chainmail, would she then qualify as "serious business"?

There's not much actual difference between "a man's" boiled leather breastplate (or any other armor) and "a woman`s". Funnily enough, both have the same general weak body parts, and a need to protect those. The main vertical line of the body is one of those. "Mound" breastplates direct the hits towards the sternum, which personally make me unable to take them seriously.

So, a toning down would help the looks issue for me, and even the plausibility issue too, up to a point.

Also, as I've said above, personally I think that a full breastplate looks much better than what the renders show, and that the detailing makes them look plate instead of leather.

I can understand the "Hey, these ladies have boiled leather armor over their chainmail, the other's don't" argument, but that doesn't seem to be the issue.

The issue is looks, and overabundance of boobplated miniatures versus a comparative lack of more "sensible" ones in the general market. Some people was hoping to see the more "sensible" approach because there is much less of those, particularly in multipart plastics.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Moving along of the plate controversy, how does everyone feel about the actual poses shown? I feel that, although they will probably rank up well, they might end up looking worse when used alone, a tad too stiff by their lonesome.

Obviously I'd need to see finished miniatures with all their parts, but the four main bodies:




If I understand correctly, these are final poses, and on the post is stated specifically that "As you can see, the bodies don't have any exaggerated poses, we opted for a more disciplined position ("disciplined" for a race of barbarians at least) taking in consideration the weaponry both kits carry (shields and crossbows)".

Although I understand the reasons, I'm not sure they'll look that good as an unranked warband, like you would be using them in games like Frostgrave or Mordheim, for example.

On another note, we revealed another project starting from today, "Monuments of Glory II"
The first two releases are out, more to follow in the coming days :-)

Northern Alliance Krumvaal (Barbarian) Warrior


http://www.shieldwolfminiatures.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=104&sl=EN

Talliareum Ogre Mercenary






http://www.shieldwolfminiatures.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=103&sl=EN

Unfortunately, if you want a unit to rank up, you have to accept compromises in pose. Hopefully there will be enough variation in arms to make things look a little less stiff.

Also, that boiled leather armor is much more what I'm talking about. I still think that the heavy plate armor looks ridiculous.

@Duskland
Apart from the choices the sprue will have, all the arms are ball-pointed so the kit allows a wide variety of poses.

Btw, lol, we were 30" too late posting on our new busts! :-)

Those busts look great! And available at http://www.shieldwolfminiatures.com/ already (not a Kickstarter )

@RiTides
Thank you!
Aye, we don't need any crowdfunding project for these, we are very happy to have regular releases on our website. :-)
(now off to work a bit more on the "regular" part I guess, lol!)

Busts look good.

The poses are not bothering me much. Not super dynamic, but even used individually they are at least in a reasonable pose. They looks like they might be standing comfortably waiting for the big clash to happen, not like perma jumping over a wall or something

Angelos commented in the comment section of the last update on kickstarter...

Creator Shieldwolf Miniatures about 3 hours ago

Hi all! (Angelos here)
I have sat back carefully appreciating the feedback received the past days on update #26. I will try being brief and substantial.
Taking in acount (and that's true for all crowdfunded projects) there's a snowflake's chance in hell to please 100% all 565 backers of this project, there are some main parts to consider in order to keep everyone as happy as possible and secure that Shieldwolf was true to its word:

-The concept artwork shown during the project has to match the final product (and if not match due to tooling issues be at least very close).
-The quality and materials of the miniatures delivered must be the same as stated in the start of this campaign. Same goes for the people assigned to each.
-The additional bodies have to be "non-bare midriff" as clearly stated on the relative SG of update #9.

Reading and assessing all of the above, I remain confident the company has kept loyal to the project. I would be willing to post a poll, had I seen if not a unanimous at least a great negative response and (clearly) this is not the case. Also, facing an already very tight schedule and dealing with the unexpected issue we had (and shared with you) concerning the printed masters, changing the sculpts would only serve to derail the project's schedule further. I am not OK with this.
I *know* some people would have wanted a poll as we are open to all possibilities and we mean to have everyone feel a real part of this campaign, but at the same time I have a task to bring forward and this has been my decision. I both think & hope you will still like the final result regardless, and would like to thank you again for the trust and support.