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So what about trueborns with shredders? Seems like having 1-2 of them in venoms ds in is a pretty good utility unit that can dish out a lot of pain. Course you'd want some higher priority targets in there like grots or talos to take some heat off them, but overall they seem very appealing.

I like them with Shredders in a Venom. 135 points for 12 poison shots and 4 ST6 blasts is not terrible.

Hollismason wrote:
Well with a combined arms detachment, Wracks suddenly become super good to take.

I mean it's feasible in 1850 to take 2 small squads of Grotesque, 1 large squad, the rest be Wracks in venoms.

Then be able to take
6 Fast Attack slots.
So yeah the book really shines when you get into the Combined Arms detachment because of what you can do.
I wouldn't sell short a army that had 3 to 4 squads of Grotesques backed up by Reavers and Fliers.

CAD doesn't make wracks troops. Even in the CCD (the coven special formation), they are still elites, it's just you get a ton of elite slots.
Wracks have a huge problem. They are average at best, and cost a stupid amount of money. I was wondering about the formation with precision strike, but I'm not going to shell out the money for the experiment.

IMO GW dropped the ball by not making Wracks and Hellions troops.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hollismason wrote:
I like them with Shredders in a Venom. 135 points for 12 poison shots and 4 ST6 blasts is not terrible.

It's the 12" range is the problem. If a shredder had an 18" or 24" range it might get some love, but at 12", you're putting a dedicated shooting squad danger-close.

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Well with a combined arms detachment, Wracks suddenly become super good to take.

I mean it's feasible in 1850 to take 2 small squads of Grotesque, 1 large squad, the rest be Wracks in venoms.

Then be able to take
6 Fast Attack slots.
So yeah the book really shines when you get into the Combined Arms detachment because of what you can do.
I wouldn't sell short a army that had 3 to 4 squads of Grotesques backed up by Reavers and Fliers.

CAD doesn't make wracks troops. Even in the CCD (the coven special formation), they are still elites, it's just you get a ton of elite slots.
Wracks have a huge problem. They are average at best, and cost a stupid amount of money. I was wondering about the formation with precision strike, but I'm not going to shell out the money for the experiment.

IMO GW dropped the ball by not making Wracks and Hellions troops.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hollismason wrote:
I like them with Shredders in a Venom. 135 points for 12 poison shots and 4 ST6 blasts is not terrible.

It's the 12" range is the problem. If a shredder had an 18" or 24" range it might get some love, but at 12", you're putting a dedicated shooting squad danger-close.

-Matt

They're not a bad unit for 115 points to get them into a Venom and have 5 guys inside it that are Fearless and come stock with FNP plus 4+ poison. That's cheap for 10 points a model.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Good thing they got a 6 FA FoC chart than, is it?

Using 2 FoCs isn't much of a strech either, the HQs are useful, and another raider gunboat is not bad.

Just think how much more awesome the book would be if Archons and Succubi could get RJB.....

Yeah that is such a huge fething disappointment that your main guys cannot get any fast moving transports. It's kind of ridiculous that every other codex can get some type of fast moving HQ except for Dark Eldar. Who get nothing.

So how are people finding wyches overall, now? I know the original consensus was that they they're weren't great, but, having bought the old battleforce and the new one (both of which are good deals for me), I've been left with two units of them.

Eight of them I'll almost definitely use (with a Succubus and an Autarch in a raider) but is it worth having another unit? And if so, how should it be run? And is the upgrade to Bloodbrides worth it?

That people freaked out for nothing and now they're way more survivable than before.

You just can't charge into anything willy nilly. You just have to be patient and set up for charging.

That's all I've seen.

It's just a matter of playing them correctly, that's all.

 The Shadow wrote:
So how are people finding wyches overall, now? I know the original consensus was that they they're weren't great, but, having bought the old battleforce and the new one (both of which are good deals for me), I've been left with two units of them.

Eight of them I'll almost definitely use (with a Succubus and an Autarch in a raider) but is it worth having another unit? And if so, how should it be run? And is the upgrade to Bloodbrides worth it?

I played a game with 30 wyches, and then ran nearly the exact same army, except I swapped out wyches for allied Dire Avengers.
Honestly, I'm glad my wyches don't have arms yet (as I've been on the fence).
After that game, I'm 100% sold on not running wyches. Other units do the killing better (reavers), other units do the tanking better (grotesques/talos).
Really, the problem isn't wyches, it's 7th edition assault rules.
The dire avengers survived much better, and put out the hurt much more effectively. My conversion plan is to give all my warriors shuriken catapults (they look like 4+ armor to me) and give my wyches the splinter rifles (they can pass as 5+ armor).
So wyches are working for you with 200+ points of supporting characters? My problem with that is now it's a huge target, and it really suffers should it bump into a dedicated assault unit.

Best of all, you shouldn't hear any whining about Dire Avengers, unlike many eldar units.

 The Shadow wrote:
So how are people finding wyches overall, now? I know the original consensus was that they they're weren't great, but, having bought the old battleforce and the new one (both of which are good deals for me), I've been left with two units of them.

Eight of them I'll almost definitely use (with a Succubus and an Autarch in a raider) but is it worth having another unit? And if so, how should it be run? And is the upgrade to Bloodbrides worth it?

I'm loving Wyches this edition and take 2-3 units every match. I'm 5W, 0L, 1D with the new codex. They seem pretty good to me and perfectly worth 10 points.

For reference I run them in units of 6-8 with Hekatrix and Hydra Gauntlets. I sometimes run the Hekatrix (need the Ld point) with haywire grenades but that depends on how much anti-tank I'm bringing elsewhere. I run them in a Raider with NS, dissies.

Right now I'm running two units like that plus a third no upgrades or just hydras, in a Venom.

The Wyches rush or counter anything my opponents move forward. The rest of the army's poison shooting softens targets that the Wyches then beat in CC or at least tie them up, providing me with a nice amount of control. I run Reavers too (sometimes incubi too), so if the Wyches need help they show up and wreck face.

I think Wyches are pretty good honestly. Fun too. I just finished ten more of them today so I have 30.

Haven't used bloodbrides yet but they can be effective. I just have issues with them in the elite slot because I want to run trueborn. I plan on using one unit of BBs next time I play though.

It costs points but a Syren with Agonizer is pretty fearsome. Five attacks, they're like a mini Succubus.

I don't understand why people don't like Wracks especially from the coven detachment or from the Scarlet Epicureans Formation.So what's the deal with the Scarlet Epicureans formation? Why is it such a big deal?Well first off you have to take a Haemy and you have to take a Cronos.They get Precision Strikes which is alright, but the big thing is that both units treat the turn 1 higher than normal which of course stacks with the Haemonoculus.The big thing is that.So if you deep striked them with the Haemy you'd get them up to turn 5 when they charged, so they'd have Zealot.So they'd reroll all of the misses.That's pretty good.Wracks though in general are really good with the coven detachments.

Seriously.

They're Fearless 10 point troops with 2 CC weapons that are 4+ poisoned and they come stock with FNP.

I don't get the dislike, course I haven't got that much experience in but I have some.

I have had no success with the Animus Vitae that thing fething sucks btw grr it never works.

Hollismason wrote:
I don't understand why people don't like Wracks especially from the coven detachment or from the Scarlet Epicureans Formation.So what's the deal with the Scarlet Epicureans formation? Why is it such a big deal?Well first off you have to take a Haemy and you have to take a Cronos.They get Precision Strikes which is alright, but the big thing is that both units treat the turn 1 higher than normal which of course stacks with the Haemonoculus.The big thing is that.So if you deep striked them with the Haemy you'd get them up to turn 5 when they charged, so they'd have Zealot.So they'd reroll all of the misses.That's pretty good.Wracks though in general are really good with the coven detachments.

Seriously.

They're Fearless 10 point troops with 2 CC weapons that are 4+ poisoned and they come stock with FNP.

I don't get the dislike, course I haven't got that much experience in but I have some.

I have had no success with the Animus Vitae that thing fething sucks btw grr it never works.

I don't think people think they suck in Coven lists. But used out of the main codex they're underwhelming.

Yeah, the Coven codex giving them Fearless, Fear then eventually Zealot is pretty awesome.

They don't make benefit of It will not Die though, so that's not that great.

Hollismason wrote:

Seriously.
They're Fearless 10 point troops with 2 CC weapons that are 4+ poisoned and they come stock with FNP.
I don't get the dislike, course I haven't got that much experience in but I have some.
I have had no success with the Animus Vitae that thing fething sucks btw grr it never works.

It's not that they are bad, it's that they aren't good enough to shine. Fearless is good, but you've got to do something besides just sit in combat.
10 T4 models with feel no pain, or 1 T7 model with 3+ armor and feel no pain. Both are 100 points.

Animus Vitae is terrible, odds of it working is very slim, much better options for the 0-1 relic.

They're more mobile than a Talos though and put out more attacks with probably the same odds. 10 of them with fearless with 3 attacks on the charge. WS4 isn't terrible either, especially if they get Zealot.

That's why I think the Scarlet Epicurions is a good formation. Specifically that formation. +2 to the turn total, hell yes.

I mean what are the odds 10 charge versus a Rip Tide versus a Talos Charging it.


I actually think they messed up and it's suppose to only trigger it's ability once a game. IE you can shoot it more than once but it only activates once.

It's just a insanely improbably thing that will occur.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:


Animus Vitae is terrible, odds of it working is very slim, much better options for the 0-1 relic.

wait i thought it had been set at: 1 relic per character and 1 of each per army? As i'd be taking this as standard, is +1 turn of PFP worth those points? most definitely unless you have specific reason to bring another relic and have only 1 HQ. yeh if you dont get it that sucks, but when you do its surely such an amazing multiplier.

It's so incredibly specific in what is required with it's str range and what have you it just cannot be relied on to reliably work plus you have to give up that Relic slot.

Most of the Relics are pretty decent. Armour of Misery etc..

EDIT:

What do people think of this it's kind of expensive but I think is cool as hell as a "strikeforce"

Lelith Hesperax
Haemonoculus w/ Sump, Flesh Gauntlet
Incubi w/ Klaivex
Venom w/ Chain Snares, 2x Splinter Cannons.

It's a 5 man unit but Lelith , Klaivex and the Haemy in the unit has Rampage and treats the turn as 1 turn higher. The Haemonoculus would be from the coven. It's kind of the foundation for a themed Coven and Wyches army. Basic idea is that the Haemonoculus Covens have teamed with the Wyches under Vect for a raid.

Leliths kind of awesome because she get's Power from the Pain so in combat she'd have a 3+ 5+, plus she rerolls all to hits and wounds and has like a gazillion attacks, plus she can get furious charge.

Thanks for the prelies on the Wyches topic, guys. I might see if I can somehow magnetise them to their bases, which allows me to run them as Sisters of Slaughter for WHFB if they don't work out so well.

The supporting characters' role of adding extra punch to a wych squad is only secondary though. The Succubus is there because I need a HQ and the Autarch is there for reserve manipulation.

It's really annoying DE don't have any reserve manipulation in their own codex. I dunno, maybe it's supposed to portray how indisciplined their armies are ("sorry, can't fight now, doin' all the drugs") but it just seems like an oversight.

 SisterSydney wrote:
It's really annoying DE don't have any reserve manipulation in their own codex. I dunno, maybe it's supposed to portray how indisciplined their armies are ("sorry, can't fight now, doin' all the drugs") but it just seems like an oversight.

The Improved comms and advanced tactical planning was left in the garage next to the Archons jetbike and skyboard.
I just hope they continue to neuter all codex characters as much as they did for DE.

-Matt

I suppose it would be an easy fix to homebrew.... Must. Fight. Temptation.....

im still holding out the chars will be more like the Ork ones;

Where they released a crazy amount of formations, each often with its own character sorta thing. I think that is a decent way to go, minus the cost of multiple books. Gona need a whole bookcase to hold everything you need to play warhammer thesedays.

Would be cool to see characters return this way. the only fear is how long does it take for GW to releasre these :/

I don't anticipate seeing any supplements like the orc/imperials one with Dark Eldar stuff in them for a while.

possibly ever.

The problem is they are not seen as one of the "main bad guy going to end the world" type of threats for campaigns.

The only campaign book I recall seeing them in was "valedor" where essentially they were on the "good" side fighting with eldar against nids, and that was an apoc book.

the dark eldar are ultra evil, but they exist in a weird paradox in that they are essentially a neutral force in the scheme of things. They have their own plots, but they are not really based on conquering and or destroying the galaxy like many of the other evil factions. As such its unlikely they will be in a campaign supplement.

We may one day see some supplements for wych cults, or kabal of the black hand(would be a good way to return vect...), or maybe an supplement that has eldar+dark eldar versus something and we might see a few formations there.

The recent pending release of nid drop spores makes the above seem probable in the not so distant forever away future.

Not saying it's overly effective, but i saw something fun someone did with Lelith to make her work stupendously well. It may have something to do with the fact he was playing against a Melee Ork and Melee Tyranid list, but still a fun idea.

Farseer
Farseer with Stone
Lelith
2 Warlocks

All in a Venom. Probably expensive as hell, I'd guess around 500pts? But by god did it work, the Farseer with Stone got Fortune, Doom and Prescience while the other Farseer got Sanctuary and Hammer Hand while the Warlocks got some other buffs. It. was. Slaughter.

Lelith charged into a unit of 3 Carnifexes at Str 6 re-rolling to hit and wound with a 2+ invulnerable save in combat. She killed 2 Carnifexs and wounded the other before they lifted a finger. This was turn 2 by the way. She carried on to eat an Ork Warboss, a Tyranofex and a MANZ Missile before the game was called.

As i said, not the best combo at all, costs way to much points and you might not get those powers, but the utter glee on his face when he rolled 10 attacks at Str 7 (Hammerhand, Empower, Furious Charge) with re-rolls and took a Tyrannofex off the board was worth sharing with you guys.

She's actually a pretty good CC character. Just that ST3 :(.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Not saying it's overly effective, but i saw something fun someone did with Lelith to make her work stupendously well. It may have something to do with the fact he was playing against a Melee Ork and Melee Tyranid list, but still a fun idea.

Farseer
Farseer with Stone
Lelith
2 Warlocks

All in a Venom. Probably expensive as hell, I'd guess around 500pts? But by god did it work, the Farseer with Stone got Fortune, Doom and Prescience while the other Farseer got Sanctuary and Hammer Hand while the Warlocks got some other buffs. It. was. Slaughter.

Lelith charged into a unit of 3 Carnifexes at Str 6 re-rolling to hit and wound with a 2+ invulnerable save in combat. She killed 2 Carnifexs and wounded the other before they lifted a finger. This was turn 2 by the way. She carried on to eat an Ork Warboss, a Tyranofex and a MANZ Missile before the game was called.

As i said, not the best combo at all, costs way to much points and you might not get those powers, but the utter glee on his face when he rolled 10 attacks at Str 7 (Hammerhand, Empower, Furious Charge) with re-rolls and took a Tyrannofex off the board was worth sharing with you guys.

How'd they get the Venom?

Probably just purchased it from Fast Attack.

Has anyone tried just taking two big units of Lhaemens?

mercury14 wrote:

.... I sometimes run the Hekatrix (need the Ld point) with haywire grenades but that depends on how much anti-tank I'm bringing elsewhere. I run them in a Raider with NS, dissies.

I find it ironic with the Haywire tactic on wyches, that wyches now get the 4++ against 'all wounds' in the fight subphase, effectively neutering the whole kamikaze thing from the previous dex. Only, now all wyches can't carry haywire. Only the Hekatrix.

It's really weird that they name all of these special characters in the Dark Eldar book, but didn't make the models.I want the Mandrake Special Character.Speaking of which does anyone use Mandrakes, the models are really cool and I was thinking of getting some.I think they'd work in a Urien list with Scouting Talos.They'd be ST5 on the charge with Furious Charge.

Scout forward w/ Talos, Move Mandrakes, Urien comes on with a unit of Grotesques.

Hollismason wrote:
It's really weird that they name all of these special characters in the Dark Eldar book, but didn't make the models.I want the Mandrake Special Character.Speaking of which does anyone use Mandrakes, the models are really cool and I was thinking of getting some.I think they'd work in a Urien list with Scouting Talos.They'd be ST5 on the charge with Furious Charge.

Scout forward w/ Talos, Move Mandrakes, Urien comes on with a unit of Grotesques.

Mandrakes are great. Point for point, they put as many wounds on a T4 target as stealth suits would have.