From the Void- Dark Eldar Tactica for 7th Codex

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**Alcibiades**

I thought the Archon was the "make an archon's court possible" choice.

**vipoid**

Alcibiades wrote:
I thought the Archon was the "make an archon's court possible" choice.

Not since the new book - Courts are now standard HQ choices.

**Sinful Hero**

vipoid wrote:
Alcibiades wrote:
I thought the Archon was the "make an archon's court possible" choice.

Not since the new book - Courts are now standard HQ choices.

Depends- I believe some tournaments require the archon. I think it's kinda beardy myself.

**vipoid**

Sinful Hero wrote:

Depends- I believe some tournaments require the archon. I think it's kinda beardy myself.

Taking an HQ choice is beardy?

**Sinful Hero**

vipoid wrote:
Sinful Hero wrote:

Depends- I believe some tournaments require the archon. I think it's kinda beardy myself.

Taking an HQ choice is beardy?

Taking a retinue without the HQ is to me.

**vipoid**

Sinful Hero wrote:

Taking a retinue without the HQ is to me.

But why? Is it for fluff reasons, or do you consider it OP?

**Sinful Hero**

vipoid wrote:
Sinful Hero wrote:

Taking a retinue without the HQ is to me.

But why? Is it for fluff reasons, or do you consider it OP?

Fluff and hanging on to older codex restrictions I guess. Other than spamming templates, I'm not sure why one would want to anyway, unless you just don't want to drop the points on an Archon or something. But even then to make it useful you'll be spending even more points on it. Not sure if I would tell someone I wouldn't play against it, but I would be a little irritated to see it.

**Alcibiades**

RAI must be that the archon unlocks the court.

Otherwise there is no point in the archon, as he is strictly inferior to all other HQ choices. Hence the designers would not have put him in.

**vipoid**

Sinful Hero wrote:

Fluff and hanging on to older codex restrictions I guess. Other than spamming templates, I'm not sure why one would want to anyway, unless you just don't want to drop the points on an Archon or something. But even then to make it useful you'll be spending even more points on it. Not sure if I would tell someone I wouldn't play against it, but I would be a little irritated to see it.

Personally, I do it when I want to run a CAD and a Coven detachment or formation, and don't have any use for a standard HQ.

I know some people do it and end up with no HQ characters at all, but that just seems wrong to me.

Alcibiades wrote:
RAI must be that the archon unlocks the court.

Otherwise there is no point in the archon, as he is strictly inferior to all other HQ choices. Hence the designers would not have put him in.

Sorry, but this is nonsense for several reasons:

1) GW has a long history of worthless units and atrocious balance. I don't see why one more would surprise anyone.

2) If we're going to talk about pointless units, though, hellions are basically outclassed in every way by Reavers.

3) The Archon is only pointless as a melee HQ. He's still a decent shooty HQ with a Blaster, and also the cheapest WWP-caddy you can get. That's more than a lot of other units have.

**mercury14**

What's the Archon, 75 pts with a power sword?

You get 6 attacks on the charge at WS7, I7, Ld10, 3W, AP3, potential FNP & furious charge. Sure he's squishy but how is that pointless?

**Frozocrone**

I think for a WWP HQ I would rather use a Haemonculus, preferably from a Coven formation, since he supports the unit further through Master of Pain.

Blaster Archon seems good...although I might just switch to the 10pt one (can't remember the name) and just use the Haemonculus from Dark Artisan as my Warlord (seriously considering a Corpsethief and Artisan army).

**vipoid**

mercury14 wrote:
What's the Archon, 75 pts with a power sword?

You get 6 attacks on the charge at WS7, I7, Ld10, 3W, AP3, potential FNP & furious charge. Sure he's squishy but how is that pointless?

Would you like the list?

1) He's not exactly versatile. Is your opponent T5? Well enjoy doing 1 wound every 2 turns. Has he got a 2+ save? Enjoy doing 1 wound every 5 turns.

2) Ok, let's be fair. On the charge, against standard MEQ, he does 1.33 wounds. A Venom costs 10pts less and can do that from 36" away. Remind me what's so great about this guy?

3) Survivability, what's that? Call me crazy, but I have issues with any HQ who gets insta-glibbed by a measly Power Maul. Most T3 HQs would at least get some kind of save. Not this chap.

4) Challenges. In many ways, this is just exacerbating the above - as it gives your opponent a way to single out your Archon. In addition, whilst WS7 and I7 look impressive, they're largely wasted. Archons - especially your build - just can't go toe-to-toe with other HQs. So, most of the time, you're just fighting WS4, I4-5 guys - making his high WS and initiative largely wasted.

5) What's the point? Why is this guy in your list at all? If he's your warlord then you're basically offering your opponent Slay the Warlord on a silver platter. I'm not sure I'd even want a Blaster Archon as my Warlord - but at least he can hide out in a vehicle 18" from his target. Your poor sod is stuck on the front lines. And, if he's a secondary HQ, then I still don't see the point because he's bringing such pitiful damage output.

Frozocrone wrote:
I think for a WWP HQ I would rather use a Haemonculus, preferably from a Coven formation, since he supports the unit further through Master of Pain.

Depends on what unit they're joining. If it's a primarily anti-vehicle unit (trueborn, heat-lance scourges), then I'd rather have a blaster archon join them - since damage output is far more important than survivability.

Frozocrone wrote:

Blaster Archon seems good...although I might just switch to the 10pt one (can't remember the name) and just use the Haemonculus from Dark Artisan as my Warlord (seriously considering a Corpsethief and Artisan army).

I often use Coven haemonculi as my Warlord, and I've heard that DA in particular makes for an outstanding warlord-bunker. One thing I quite like is that it's very self-contained - you can put it into a list without needing to build said list around it, if you see what I mean. I haven't actually used it much myself, but I intend to correct that soon.

**Ascalam**

I use Archons as disposable drop pods.

Attach a webway portal, shadowfield archon to a nasty short ranged shooty unit or CC unit. (wraithguard, Grotesques etc)

Jump them in, and use the Archon's Shadowfield to tank hits for them for a turn (average before he dies)

Then the unit is more or less undamaged, with luck, and can go rampage over the Archon's corpse towards the enemy.

Bit expensive, but it works for me.

I'd never take an Archon as my actual HQ though...

**Frozocrone**

@vipoid

Yeah, I have, that's why I want to get Corpsethief Claw so that I can build around it

I personally like having a Liquifier gun on the Talos and Haemonculus as with the Cronos' weapon, that's three Templates (and TL Splinter Cannon on the Talos) which can easily kill infantry. It is a bit costly (~30 IIRC) and you can afford to drop it if you need points but it is a nice option to have.

**vipoid**

Ascalam wrote:
I use Archons as disposable drop pods.

Attach a webway portal, shadowfield archon to a nasty short ranged shooty unit or CC unit. (wraithguard, Grotesques etc)

Jump them in, and use the Archon's Shadowfield to tank hits for them for a turn (average before he dies)

Then the unit is more or less undamaged, with luck, and can go rampage over the Archon's corpse towards the enemy.

With regard to the Grotesques, is their Ld not a problem? I mean, once the Archon is dead they're just Ld4.

Ascalam wrote:
I'd never take an Archon as my actual HQ though...

I'm the same. I've sometimes considered it, but I just always end up deciding against it for a mix of general reasons and personal preferences:

- No AP2 melee weapons. Not so much as Rending.

- No cheap melee weapons like the old Venom Blade.

- T3 bothers me. A lot. There are just too many things that can ID it for my tastes. Granted, there are quite a few things that can ID a Haemonculus, but I'll get to that.

- I dislike Shadow Fields. They're just too unreliable for my tastes. With a Haemonculus, I at least know what to avoid. With an Archon, I have no idea which wound will be his last, as it were.

- Haemonculi have nicer models.

Frozocrone wrote:
@vipoid
I personally like having a Liquifier gun on the Talos and Haemonculus as with the Cronos' weapon, that's three Templates (and TL Splinter Cannon on the Talos) which can easily kill infantry. It is a bit costly (~30 IIRC) and you can afford to drop it if you need points but it is a nice option to have.

Hmm, it seems I build mine quite differently. I run mine along these lines:
Cronos w/ Spirit Probe
Haemonculus w/ Scissorhands, Vexator Mask (might add more stuff if I have spare points)
Talos w/ Ichor Injector, Heat Lance

I like the Heat Lance because it gives me the option of trying to pop a vehicle when they land. The rest of the stuff is tailored for combat - Vexator Mask lets the Haemonculus pin down a fast character or MC in a challenge, whilst the other two murder him. Ichor Injector let's me threaten MCs and other multi-wound units.

I dislike the Liquifier Gun on the Talos because it removes one of his attacks, and makes me feel that I'm wasting the bonuses the formation is getting. Although, if points allow I'd certainly give the Haemonculus one.

**mercury14**

Vipoid, I never said a 75 pt p-sword Archon was "good". I just disagreed that for 75 points he's pointless. Of course a Coven supplement Haemi buried in Grots or MCs is going to be more durable.

I tend to bury a naked/CC Archon in Grots though too and he usually survives just fine.

Also with the shadow field, you use LOS if the wounds are S6+ and then use discretion taking other wounds based on the situation. Or if it's like a lascannon or something you just take it on the shadowfield.

It's a calculated risk.

**vipoid**

mercury14 wrote:
Vipoid, I never said a 75 pt p-sword Archon was "good". I just disagreed that for 75 points he's pointless.

But that's the thing - what *is* the point? I'm not seeing it.

mercury14 wrote:
I tend to bury a naked/CC Archon in Grots though too and he usually survives just fine.

It just seems that there are better choices - ones which can survive, but also do something. A Succubus with a Glaive is 95pts and can help them out against 2+ saves, whilst benefiting greatly from their toughness. An 80pt Haemonculus with Scissorhands can help out a bit in combat, whilst also buffing their pfp (so you can get FC and Fearless faster). Hell, even a naked haemonculus just seems like a far better choice because he can actually help them without needing to do anything in combat.

**mercury14**

I think the point is to have an ultra-cheap HQ and run MSU where the enemy can't kill anything worth any points. That's our best defense.

It appears that we can take a 10-point Lhamaean as our warlord though to perhaps she's the best choice.

**vipoid**

mercury14 wrote:
I think the point is to have an ultra-cheap HQ and run MSU where the enemy can't kill anything worth any points. That's our best defense.

But that's the thing - there's very little difference in base price between an Archon and a Haemonculus (and, if you give them each a cheap weapon they're the same cost), and the latter adds much more.

Regardless, I agree that MSU is one of our best strategies. I used to like gunboats (10 warriors in a raider with splinter racks), but more recently I'm moving to only ever using 5-man squads with a special weapon. My Warlord will always get a bit of extra gear for flavour reasons (Parasite's Kiss, Vexator Mask or somesuch), but everything else gets the absolute minimum.

Amusingly though, the 'MSU' list I made recently included a ~400pt Dark Artisan formation.

**Lord Blackscale**

I wish the Archon was able to be kitted out fo multiple roles, like the Autarch, but with DE goodies.

**vipoid**

Lord Blackscale wrote:
I wish the Archon was able to be kitted out fo multiple roles, like the Autarch, but with DE goodies.

Agreed. He's just so limited - no wings/jetbike option, no AP2 (and a really crap weapon selection) , and no support abilities.

**Sinful Hero**

I forget, if a vehicle moves combat speed do passengers snap shoot heavy weapons?

Trying to decide if it's worth putting two dark lances and a blaster archon in a Blasterborn squad with a raider.

**Red Corsair**

Sinful Hero wrote:
I forget, if a vehicle moves combat speed do passengers snap shoot heavy weapons?

Trying to decide if it's worth putting two dark lances and a blaster archon in a Blasterborn squad with a raider.

Yes. It needs to remain stationary in order for normal shots to be made.

**Ascalam**

vipoid wrote:
Ascalam wrote:
I use Archons as disposable drop pods.

Attach a webway portal, shadowfield archon to a nasty short ranged shooty unit or CC unit. (wraithguard, Grotesques etc)

Jump them in, and use the Archon's Shadowfield to tank hits for them for a turn (average before he dies)

Then the unit is more or less undamaged, with luck, and can go rampage over the Archon's corpse towards the enemy.

With regard to the Grotesques, is their Ld not a problem? I mean, once the Archon is dead they're just Ld4.

Can be, but if you are running them from the Haemonculus coven supplement (Grotesquerie) they wind up fearless pretty fast IIRC

**gameandwatch**

Frozocrone wrote:
@vipoid

Yeah, I have, that's why I want to get Corpsethief Claw so that I can build around it

I personally like having a Liquifier gun on the Talos and Haemonculus as with the Cronos' weapon, that's three Templates (and TL Splinter Cannon on the Talos) which can easily kill infantry. It is a bit costly (~30 IIRC) and you can afford to drop it if you need points but it is a nice option to have.

I was strongly considering this army as well, but after much self deliberation decided against it. Yes it would be nasty and very survivable. But it is unfortunately slow as a whole and at range can only engage a few targets a turn.

I also always run TL Haywire blasters on talos as well. In corpsethief, thats 5 TL haywire blasters that are not only fantastic for killing things like landraiders or vehicles in general, but are also great against fliers like the now ever so popular fireraptor.

just a thought.

**Frozocrone**

gameandwatch wrote:
Frozocrone wrote:
@vipoid

Yeah, I have, that's why I want to get Corpsethief Claw so that I can build around it

I personally like having a Liquifier gun on the Talos and Haemonculus as with the Cronos' weapon, that's three Templates (and TL Splinter Cannon on the Talos) which can easily kill infantry. It is a bit costly (~30 IIRC) and you can afford to drop it if you need points but it is a nice option to have.

I was strongly considering this army as well, but after much self deliberation decided against it. Yes it would be nasty and very survivable. But it is unfortunately slow as a whole and at range can only engage a few targets a turn.

I also always run TL Haywire blasters on talos as well. In corpsethief, thats 5 TL haywire blasters that are not only fantastic for killing things like landraiders or vehicles in general, but are also great against fliers like the now ever so popular fireraptor.

just a thought.

It is a valid point you make. I think I've only ever run Splinter Cannons and with a 36" range, I've found myself to always be in range so...eh. Scout moves should help close the distance but still. Will definitely try Haywire though before committing.

**mercury14**

Sinful Hero wrote:
I forget, if a vehicle moves combat speed do passengers snap shoot heavy weapons?

Trying to decide if it's worth putting two dark lances and a blaster archon in a Blasterborn squad with a raider.

Yes.

Just use blasters though, you'll be in range.

**Sinful Hero**

mercury14 wrote:
Sinful Hero wrote:
I forget, if a vehicle moves combat speed do passengers snap shoot heavy weapons?

Trying to decide if it's worth putting two dark lances and a blaster archon in a Blasterborn squad with a raider.

Yes.

Just use blasters though, you'll be in range.

I was mostly wondering if adding dark lances to a Blasterborn squad mostly. The splinter rifle usually doesn't have much to shoot at if they're hunting armor. Bu if they fire snap-shots most of the time, I don't think the points are worth it.

**Deuce11**

extremefreak17 wrote:
Question about reavers:

Lets say I were to take a unit of six with 2 blasters, 2 cluster caltrops, and an arena champ w/agonizer. Which models do i give the blasters and caltrops to? Would I want to give the arena champ one of each and then put the other two on another single model? Or maybe spread them throughout the unit?

I know this might not be the best loadout for the sqaud, but i am more or less trying to figure out which models to magnetize the upgrades to, and dont want to have to use magnets on every model.

Furthermore, Basters or heat lances?

Keep them cheap! Max caltrops and no guns. Scream at the enemy and jink (3+ cover).

Automatically Appended Next Post:

BlaxicanX wrote:
lambsandlions wrote:
How good are reaver jetbikes? In the old codex they were mostly just harassers who made little sweeps by your opponent but now that bladevanes are HoW based they may have actually good better? A unit of 9 can dish out 3d6 s6 rending HoW attacks. This can very realistically destroy most vehicles who's rear armor is usually av10. Against marines, 10 HoW does 6.66 regular wounds and 1.66 rending wounds, or about 3.75 unsaved wounds. Plus you still have the regular bladevanes s4 rending HoW hits, plus 3 s3 normal attacks per reaver.

Survivability wise reavers are rocking t4 with a 3++ jink save making them about as hard to kill as marines. Jinking is not a big deal for the reavers as their splinter rifle is not the most impressive weapon. Combat drugs can also do a lot to make the t5.

A few units of 9 reavers could be very scary might be a better counter to serpent spam than scourges.

...

Also, with the average roll on the combat drugs table being 4, you've got a decent chance of rolling around with T5 reavers, for extra lulz.

That is not how statistics works. The average roll for any one side of a D6 is exactly the same (assuming everything else is constant). If you roll a single die many times over the average of all the numbers rolled should equal 4 because you have rolled every number between 1 and 6 an equal amount of times. that does not mean the the number 4 is the most rolled side of the die though.

**SisterSydney**

[nitpick]Actually the average roll on 1d6 is 3.5, which isn't even possible as the result of any individual roll. Try finding an entry for "3.5" in the Combat Drugs table, I'll wait....[/nitpick]

PS Math: (1+2+3+4+5+6)/6 = 3.5