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 the_Armyman wrote:

 Charles Rampant wrote:
The thing to remember is that, according to these rumours, the current way of doing things is not the model. The rumours say that we should expect rapid and small additions to the six factions in turn, which I shall call 'waves', and that these waves will be time-limited. For this model, keeping an army simply because it has a lot of kits doesn't matter; the whole idea is to bring out lots of new kits with interesting and unique looks, in a fire-and-forget format that allows GW to avoid having a huge range of boxes. They don't want to have an Elven faction with 89 boxes; they want an Elven faction with a half-dozen long-lasting boxes (call it the 'essentials' range: bog standard core units, for which the current Dark Elf infantry box is a very strong contender), and a revolving stock of another half dozen boxes, all with unique IP qualities. Having lots of current kits thus is totally irrelevant to the future, since the current range (with millions of kits, and various ancient Core plastic boxes) is not envisaged as playing any role in the future range.

You should probably not expect the current army book titles to remain. Instead, I would expect a new more unique title, and then the Lizards may or may not turn up as a recurring element in one of those. As a purely speculative example: 'The Savage Hierarchy', for which the initial wave includes Saurus Cavalry and Skink skirmishers (both sexy new kits with round bases), along with a big monster (Carnosaur kit for example). Then six months later we get a Fishmen wave for them, which has a bunch of stuff like swarms and tough heavy infantry. Six months later you get Saurus Beserkers, who are a unit of super-heavy infantry. Six months after that, they retire the Fishmen wave, and bring out a new wave. And so on.

This is all assuming that the rumours are correct, and that I've interpreted those rumours correctly.

Exalted.

I think you get it, Charles, and this is also the way I see this whole thing playing out. A set of core boxes for each army book is kept on the shelves. Duplicate boxed sets that fulfill the same tabletop role get phased out, with limited splash releases on a regular basis to keep each faction buying throughout the year. The old model of updated army books every 3-5 years with 4-6 new kits per release is gone.

A new kit gets a weekly White Dwarf spotlight, it's kept as a Direct Order SKU for a number of months, then it gets discontinued if it doesn't sell.

It's not that people don't understand the concept, it's that people can't believe even GW would do something so monumentally idiotic.

Poor fantasy...It was such a noble game when I started

 the_Armyman wrote:


Exalted.

I think you get it, Charles, and this is also the way I see this whole thing playing out. A set of core boxes for each army book is kept on the shelves. Duplicate boxed sets that fulfill the same tabletop role get phased out, with limited splash releases on a regular basis to keep each faction buying throughout the year. The old model of updated army books every 3-5 years with 4-6 new kits per release is gone.

A new kit gets a weekly White Dwarf spotlight, it's kept as a Direct Order SKU for a number of months, then it gets discontinued if it doesn't sell.

I think that we have already seen 40k moving in this direction. I mean, the Stormclaw boxed set was incredible value, and disappeared almost instantly. As did the Void Shield. I think that Games Workshop have decided on a collectors approach: bring out exciting things that won't be around forever, prompting their customers to go crazy trying to get them. It allows them to quietly ignore the Ebay market - since they are in the business of selling new exciting kits, rather than updating old models - and means that their designers (both model and rules) can focus entirely on designing new and cool things, rather than trying to balance them against older ones. To take a recent example: they wouldn't need to care whether the Stormfiends were a good addition to the Rare slot, since at the time of their release they would be the only thing in that slot. People buy them or not. Then they are away to design the next thing.

Is this good for us as customers? Interesting question. If it results in a game that you can play with a smaller investment - say that all you need is 2 monsters, a character and a pair of 10-20 man regiments - then it could arguably be a lot easier to get into, resulting in far higher buy in. This means more players. You won't be able to collect everything released for a given faction, and indeed you might have a fairly limited set of model options at any given moment. Some people will really get annoyed by that, for various reasons. It also seems clear that backward compatibility, though explicitly mentioned as a thing in these rumours, won't be a huge priority going forward. I mean, currently if GW brings out another Tomb Kings book then they need to worry about updating loads of rules for old models as well as adding new ones. I don't think that they will bring out any new army books. So my collection of Tomb Kings won't be updated, in terms of rules, and if I want to use them then proxies and counts-as are likely to be how I'll do it. But you get a whole bunch of cool (?) kits releasing for your chosen faction every once in a while. You potentially get a cheaper game to play, meaning that you can spread your hobby money around further within the game. You maybe even avoid the charge that the game is about replicating the same models, if instead we start seeing armies full of relatively unique units.

So am I excited? Er, sort of. I'm interested to see how it goes. I'm certainly not possessed of the view that Games Workshop owes it to me to keep my current ranges totally valid and pristine - I can see how that isn't really to their benefit - but I'm also certainly not excited to have my hard work ruined. I am, however, a huge fan of Games Workshop models, and love how WFB currently plays. So I'm hoping that, even if these rumours come true, that I'll have a game identifiable as WFB which I can play with a larger fanbase, which has lots of cool models to paint and play with, and which stops the endless moaning at my gaming clubs about "models are only wound counters".

 sourclams wrote:

 Flashman wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

OMG! They killed Kroak

And that was a really badly written piece of text.

It does seem to confirm bubble hammer though...

Oh, Croak has the Power Cosmic.

That's cool.

I wonder when the Silver Surfer shows up?

Just before the Great Chaos Lord Galactus devours the Warhammer World....

The Auld Grump

I hope not, I mean, It seems like they may as well cancel WHFB and make a new game.

 Brennonjw wrote:
I hope not, I mean, It seems like they may as well cancel WHFB and make a new game.

Yeah, it's like...when you're a kid, trying to cut a circle from a piece of paper, you make a mistake so cut some more off, then more and more, you eventually give up because it's too small and try again.

Only GW sets theirs on fire and tries to burn it into a circle.

I'm a guy who would love to play WHFB but not as a skirmish game. Massed ranks of troops is very cool in fantasy. But the GW approach seems designed to soak me constantly. Another thing and maybe I'm wrong so correct me, it seems like armies are not based around massed groups of infantry and cavalry but more about large expensive models with a couple units of regulars to fill it out.

I'm not the type who is going to read WH books and stuff but the fluff is cool, or at least was as far as I know since most of my knowledge of the World of Warhammer comes from WHFB 2e and the first two editions of WHFRP. I'd like to get into WH more but GW costing on books and models is frankly insane compared to other options, and the way the rules are seemingly secondary to pretty models is just not what I'm looking for.

But since I'm not a store/tourney player much I'm fine with just using what I've got and use KoW, or one of the older rule books I've got with my older WH models. Perry miniatures line would work great with Empire or Bretonnian armies and I've got an old copy of 6e and RH.

It used to be, now cavalry are pretty useless and infantry needs to be in massive blocks to do anything.
It's all about ugly giant monster models.

Cavalry is far from useless. Bretonnia still is a very strong army.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Cavalry is far from useless. Bretonnia still is a very strong army.

All cav empire, high elf and dark elf lists are very competitive

 Sigvatr wrote:
Cavalry is far from useless. Bretonnia still is a very strong army.

Okay I was being slightly over dramatic

The "problem" with cavalry is that they require work to play. Any blind monkey can play a typical Skaven or Goblin army, but a cavalry-army requires careful pre-planning and tactical skill instead of just spamming big hordes and rare choices.

As a consequence, a lot of players fall flat on their faces when playing cavalry and then blame the units whereas in fact, it's a lack of experience.

Let me see if I get this right from what I have read for the new Fantasy Game Model:

- At any given time, I will be able to purchase a very bland version of a given army which may or may not be table capable with the continuously produced models.

- During the year, GW will release a limited run of additional, more "spicy" models for my army, which I need to buy almost instantaneously or I will not be able to get them. I may or may not know the rules for them ahead of time and they may or may not be balanced.

- Given enough time, there will be models/rules that I have for my army that new players have no way of getting because they are out of print. This may or may not give me an advantage.

Is the above correct?

Barfolomew wrote:
Let me see if I get this right from what I have read for the new Fantasy Game Model:

- At any given time, I will be able to purchase a very bland version of a given army which may or may not be table capable with the continuously produced models.

- During the year, GW will release a limited run of additional, more "spicy" models for my army, which I need to buy almost instantaneously or I will not be able to get them. I may or may not know the rules for them ahead of time and they may or may not be balanced.

- Given enough time, there will be models/rules that I have for my army that new players have no way of getting because they are out of print. This may or may not give me an advantage.

Is the above correct?

According to the rumours, yes.

One mistake: you said rules which "may or may not be balanced." They most certainly will NOT be balanced.

It is unlikely you will have rare oop characters or units. Rare generic models are more likely. I think it would Bo like that recluse chaplain in the space marine box from last year.

 Laemos wrote:
It is unlikely you will have rare oop characters or units. Rare generic models are more likely. I think it would Bo like that recluse chaplain in the space marine box from last year.

But that is not what the rumours say. The rumours specifically state limited edition rules that go along limited edition models.

 namiel wrote:

Spoiler:

 Bottle wrote:

 namiel wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

migooo wrote:

 melkorthetonedeaf wrote:
Oh man, I loved it when they destroyed Forgotten Realms.

How I learned to stop worrying and love the bubbleverse...

Yeah that never happened. At least I pretend that.

I'm hearing allot of chat about sisters but that's all it is chat, I've had more solid info about Skitari then sisters though people are saying that it's this year.


Lizardmen are probably gone just like Brets.

Brets are joining the Armies of Man thing if rumors are true, and if all their units still exist you'll still be able to field a pure classic Bret army like you can now from the book. Hell they got some fluff in the End Times books too from what I understand too [spoiler]The Green Knight is their First King who is still alive and is back.

Lizardmen are looking like they're more completely gone, unless they're just getting a rework and will come back later with some new design choices. So they're actually looking to be worse off than the Brets on this one right now.

Brets joining the army of men is part of the rumor BUT the entire bret line still existing is NOT part of the rumors. The rumors basically say that when the books get combined lots of units will be cut out of the books. So empire will be down to just halberds no more swordsmen or spearmen just the one basic state troop, etc. Thats the worst part is finding out half of the models you have are no longer part of your army

Bottle wrote:I very much doubt that specific example as they are all part of the same kit. More likely boxed sets that are old and models that are still only resin and metal will be culled first.

Thats exactly what will happen, but lots of people still use lots of those minis. Look at bret knights. Only knights of the realm and knights errant have a plastic box(a VERY old plastic box) and the others are in resin. So do brets now only have 1 knight option? If the point of this is to cut down then i dont see them making new plastic sculpts for those, thus lots of those units will be cut. Units that many people have models for.

No. Why would they cut Empire swordsmen and spearmen when they make up the same kit as the Halberdiers? Much more likely all variants will still exist, named something like -insert unique IP name here- Human Infantry but they will drop the Brettonian Men-At-arms Kit. (And people who play brets now can field their old models as counts-as)

This is what we are going to see. Old and unpopular kits dropped when there is a better kit that offers similar options in another of the armies they are combining with.

I think it would be kinda cool if both 40k and fantasy could be played with round or square bases and a few more armies were cross platform. I always thought that was pretty cool of Deamon of Chaos. I always saw more value in that army because of it.

 Rainbow Dash wrote:


Poor fantasy...It was such a noble game when I started

Everything ends badly, otherwise it wouldn't end.

So in the end, WFB is now just going to be Mordhiem on another scale?

You can use your armies and play skirmish? The setting is just abysmal now to even seem to be fantasy. This is now just more or less looking more and more like Necromunda with a sword and a bow then anything even remotely old world.

And for all out there saying " even GW isn't this stupid..". I'm sorry, but you must be either a new player or someone who doesn't know GW very well. This is exactly the type of dick move GW is now known and laughed at for. They are known for this exact very same thing because they know what you want, and if you don't like it, its your fault.

WFB is dead, and even if I'm on the sidelines now just watching a train wreck, I feel sorrow for all of us die hards that actually had hope that they would stop fuel injecting kool aid and actually see what's really going on in the gaming world and how the economy is now pushing us away from mutts like GW.


!@#$ them, make mine Mantic.

Just like 4e DnD, I dont have to play it.

Nor will I.

 Baragash wrote:

 namiel wrote:
The base landraider kit was over $1mil to produce. Just that one kit was OVER $1mil

It was £250k. Source: I spoke to the production guys at Games Day UK just after it was released.

EDIT: and that was, what, 1998? Technology has moved on since then too.

It's OVER 9000!!!

The 250k GBP number almost certainly includes the cost of the machine, setup, learning, along with sculpting, proofing, and fair chunk of Kirby's yacht.


IMO, GW will produce all new X-in-1 kits for infantry, cavalry, etc.
- Grimdark Skaven and Grimdark Chaos need very little change from what they are today, being strong GW IP, just a little cleanup.
- Grimdark Elves are likely to be similar to Dark Elves, no problem.
- Grimdark Undead will probably look closer to VC, like their Crypt Ghouls - the Egyptian stuff is far too generic, so it's worthless.
- Grimdark Men will all new kits. as the entirety of the existing models are slightly-tweaked historicals of some sort - GW is completely unprotected with their Landsknect infantry, their Teutonic Knights, etc. This is a huge problem for GW, and likely where a lot of work has gone.
- Grimdark Orks are more problematic from a theme standpoint, as they were always a goofy, cheerful lot. I wonder how this is going to work.

PhantomViper wrote:
According to the rumours, yes.

Man, too funny. I can see this working for about 6 months, then people will get peeved with it. The first unit that comes out that creates a step change in an army's capability or crushes someone's theme when they can't get a hold of it will pave the way for GW loosing customers.

This turns Fantasy into a collectible miniature game, just like collectible card games so many hate on this forum. I play MTG and the one thing most people complain about with that game is the barrier of entry into competitive constructed play; even with all the secondary market support it has. Fantasy has no real sponsored tournaments to help drive the secondary market and the beer and pretzel motif mean GW will not provide support. The one thing most table top bases have going for them is that everyone has an equal opportunity to acquire the models they want, but not with this model.

PhantomViper wrote:

 Laemos wrote:
It is unlikely you will have rare oop characters or units. Rare generic models are more likely. I think it would Bo like that recluse chaplain in the space marine box from last year.

But that is not what the rumours say. The rumours specifically state limited edition rules that go along limited edition models.

I have a feeling that'll be more like campaign books like Shield of Baal that have a limited release set that has one or two unique models with a bunch of generic ones.

Barfolomew wrote:
Let me see if I get this right from what I have read for the new Fantasy Game Model:

- At any given time, I will be able to purchase a very bland version of a given army which may or may not be table capable with the continuously produced models.

- During the year, GW will release a limited run of additional, more "spicy" models for my army, which I need to buy almost instantaneously or I will not be able to get them. I may or may not know the rules for them ahead of time and they may or may not be balanced.

- Given enough time, there will be models/rules that I have for my army that new players have no way of getting because they are out of print. This may or may not give me an advantage.

Is the above correct?

Or you buy the rules digitally and convert/3rd party the model and give Kirby the vapors!



Egads! Other companies, making models? Why I never...

Gragga Da Krumpa wrote:
Just like 4e DnD, I dont have to play it.

Nor will I.

So you're rejecting an edition release 6+ months out that can be completely different than what some of the rumors are saying?

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Gragga Da Krumpa wrote:
Just like 4e DnD, I dont have to play it.

Nor will I.

So you're rejecting an edition release 6+ months out that can be completely different than what some of the rumors are saying?

Given GW's general attitude and track record...

If only they were giving us information to assuage concerns. But what kind of company would engage with its customers before a major change to let them know the reasons behind it and what the future holds? Clearly such things are otiose.

In all seriousness though, that's part of the issue. GW should be in constant communication via White Dwarf or other mediums (if they had them, you know...) to be up front about the changes, give previews, answer questions from people (such as a Lizardman player concerned about the future of their army). Instead, they're silent and all we have to go on is rumors until probably a month (if even) before it's out. And then it will be "Surprise, new edition of Warhammer Fantasy! Get your wallets ready!" like everything else they do.

is it any wonder why people are upset? GW's lack of communication and general disdain for its customers is astounding.

WayneTheGame wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Gragga Da Krumpa wrote:
Just like 4e DnD, I dont have to play it.

Nor will I.

So you're rejecting an edition release 6+ months out that can be completely different than what some of the rumors are saying?

Given GW's general attitude and track record...

If only they were giving us information to assuage concerns. But what kind of company would engage with its customers before a major change to let them know the reasons behind it and what the future holds? Clearly such things are otiose.

In all seriousness though, that's part of the issue. GW should be in constant communication via White Dwarf or other mediums (if they had them, you know...) to be up front about the changes, give previews, answer questions from people (such as a Lizardman player concerned about the future of their army). Instead, they're silent and all we have to go on is rumors until probably a month (if even) before it's out. And then it will be "Surprise, new edition of Warhammer Fantasy! Get your wallets ready!" like everything else they do.

is it any wonder why people are upset? GW's lack of communication and general disdain for its customers is astounding.

Like back in the day when they gave us a playtest version of 4th edition's assault rules in 40k to try out and get used to, with a list of the reasoning behind the changes. Those days of "by gamers, for gamers" design are long gone.

I know people are upset and I get that the lack of communication isn't helping but we've been down this sort of road where "BIG CHANGE IS COMING!!!! EVERYONE PANIC!!!! SCISSORS 61!!!!111!" comes up and it turns out to either be better than we were expecting or nowhere close to what was rumored.

Yes some pieces seem to be falling into place (bubble hammer, round bases) but they aren't the same as we were told either. The bubbles seem to be Lizardmen centric (and didn't completely remove them from the setting), and the round bases showed up on two Skaven models that didn't have bases before but there is still stuff on square bases.

Plus, you know, we've seen round bases in Fantasy before:


Yes, change is coming. But it's too early to claim it's coming exactly as predicted.

What it is looking like is that the game is getting a major shake up and some of the lines are being consolidated because the game just can't support so many different armies when no one is buying. With a streamlined army count and room to create new characters to replace some of the old ones who were slain so far we're seeing progression in the story. Where that progression takes us remains to be seen, but it is progression.