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Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

Martel732 wrote:
 Filch wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
Why is it that whenever we get "X doesn't reflect the fluff, we should buff it!" it's always a Marine player?


I been trying to say, "Why is it that whenever we get "X doesn't reflect the fluff, we should reduce point cost!" For all the times I been a CSM player.

We dont get atsknf? My CSM should cost 2 pts less. We dont get infiltrating Chosen? Chosen should cost less. Cultist dont get IG orders? Cultist should cost less.


ATSKNF is a non-benefit. It hurts as much as it helps.


Excuse me if, as a DE player, I grind my teeth at this.

That "non-benefit" rule makes you outright immune to several of my weapons.

Not to mention naturally immune to the Fear rule that's so pervasive in my books.

And that's before we get to its main effect.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/01/24 21:11:37


 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in ca
Heroic Senior Officer





Krieg! What a hole...

 Ashiraya wrote:
 Bobthehero wrote:
One guy out trillions, born on a planet known for its huge human. How does that compare to every freaking SM.


Because Harker is of human strength and resilience, and Space Marines are of superhuman strength and resilience.

It really is not any more complex than that.


Might not be that super.

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Savageconvoy wrote:
Snookie gives birth to Heavy Gun drone squad. Someone says they are overpowered. World ends.

 
   
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ATSKNF does not let Marines automatically pass fear tests. You don't auto pass other tests. Marines can be forced to flee by deer effects or be reduced to ws1 just as anything else that isn't fearless.

 Wyzilla wrote:

Because Plague Marines have the evasion abilities of a drunk elephant.


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Made in au
Liche Priest Hierophant







It makes them ignore the effects of Fear.

Honestly I'm beginning to think that SM players don't understand just how good ATSKNF is...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/24 22:20:37


 
   
Made in us
Twisted Trueborn with Blaster





 raiden wrote:
ATSKNF does not let Marines automatically pass fear tests. You don't auto pass other tests. Marines can be forced to flee by deer effects or be reduced to ws1 just as anything else that isn't fearless.


Page 157:

And They Shall Know No Fear

A unit with that contains at least on model with this special rule automatically passes Fear and Regroup tests. When it regroups, the unit does not make the 3" Regroup move, but can instead move, shoot (or Run), and declare charges normally in that turn. Furthermore, if a unit containing one or more models with this special rule is caught in a Sweeping Advance, they are not destroyed, but remain locked in combat.


So, yeah, I don't know where you got that Marines aren't immune to fear. And immunity to destruction from Sweeping Advances is no small blessing.

"But If the Earth isn't flat, then how did Jabba chakka wookiee no Solo ho ho ho hoooooooo?" 
   
Made in us
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Hm. Been handicapping myself it seems. But sometimes I would rather my tacs or marines get swept so my next turn I could actually shoot the thing that charged them. Usually they live until my turn, die then he charges something else.

 Wyzilla wrote:

Because Plague Marines have the evasion abilities of a drunk elephant.


Burn the Heretic
Kill the mutant
Purge the Unclean 
   
Made in us
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 raiden wrote:
Hm. Been handicapping myself it seems. But sometimes I would rather my tacs or marines get swept so my next turn I could actually shoot the thing that charged them. Usually they live until my turn, die then he charges something else.


Oh, I totally get you on that point. But after playing against orks, and watching the 12 survivors of a squad of 15 loota boyz get annihilated on a single dice roll, by a single TWC, just because I caused 2 wounds, they caused one, and they have crappy initiative and leadership, I came to appreciate how useful not being destroyed by sweeping advances is.

But yeah, sometimes it's nice to fall back successfully and then shoot.

We all handicap ourselves sometimes, though, just because it's a ton of crap to remember. I played three games with my TWC before I realized they were all rending, just because it's listed under the wargear description, not the unit description.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/01/24 23:17:07


"But If the Earth isn't flat, then how did Jabba chakka wookiee no Solo ho ho ho hoooooooo?" 
   
Made in us
Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend



Maine

So much 'make the game reflect the fluff' when it would just cause the game to become more messy. Why don't my Orks have a natural FNP? Why do I need a Dok to do it? The fluff has instances all the time that Orks don't stop fighting until there is basically nothing left of them. Why do I need to waste 50 points on an HQ. Every unit sans Grots should have it built in.

Why are my Nobz a joke when they should be on par in terms of strength as Marines. My squad of Nobz (Not even Mega Nobz) should be able to bulldoze through the ranks of virtually every army. They are sposed to be the Orks bigger, badder, stronger, brutal, etc.

My Warboss shouldn't get slaughtered in challenges so easily. He is sposed to be THE Biggest, 'ardest, etc. That Warboss alone should be laughing in the face of all but my opponents strongest units and even then, giving those a run for their money.

The reason we can't have fluff translate to game is because everyone's book claims their army is the best. Which makes no lick of sense.
   
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 vipoid wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 Filch wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
Why is it that whenever we get "X doesn't reflect the fluff, we should buff it!" it's always a Marine player?


I been trying to say, "Why is it that whenever we get "X doesn't reflect the fluff, we should reduce point cost!" For all the times I been a CSM player.

We dont get atsknf? My CSM should cost 2 pts less. We dont get infiltrating Chosen? Chosen should cost less. Cultist dont get IG orders? Cultist should cost less.


ATSKNF is a non-benefit. It hurts as much as it helps.


Excuse me if, as a DE player, I grind my teeth at this.

That "non-benefit" rule makes you outright immune to several of my weapons.

Not to mention naturally immune to the Fear rule that's so pervasive in my books.

And that's before we get to its main effect.


They're meqs. You just kill them and not worry about fear and all that other crap. ATSKNF doesn't help a dead marine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
It makes them ignore the effects of Fear.

Honestly I'm beginning to think that SM players don't understand just how good ATSKNF is...


I don't think Xeno players understand how useless it is when you just shoot the marines dead where they stand. ATSKNF is worthless against raw firepower. I've voluntarily turned this ability off before, and I didn't miss it at all.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/01/25 00:37:00


 
   
Made in us
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant





Again. Drop the fluff part. I could Care less. I was trying to buff a lackluster unit. Not match fluf .

 Wyzilla wrote:

Because Plague Marines have the evasion abilities of a drunk elephant.


Burn the Heretic
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Tac marines are a dumpster fire. The more tac marines a list has, the easier it is to route off the table. It's because tac marines have terrible offense for their price.
   
Made in es
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine





A Tactical Squad of 5 marines with no upgrades is 70 points. They have T4, 3+ Save, ATSKNF plus chapter tactics.

Comparatively, 5 IG stormtroopers with no upgrades are 82 points. They have T3 and 4+ Save (also deep strike and move through cover, useful abilities but they don't do anything towards survivability).

Another comparison, Chaos Space Marines: 75 points for five guys, including a unit champion "blessed" with one of the most stupid special rules ever. No ATSKNF, no chapter tactics.

I honestly fail to see how the SM Tactical Squads are that bad. Although I guess they'll look terrible if you're willing to swallow the we're the spess mehreens and we're da best all hail the emprah fluff, of course.

Progress is like a herd of pigs: everybody is interested in the produced benefits, but nobody wants to deal with all the resulting gak.

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 Korinov wrote:
A Tactical Squad of 5 marines with no upgrades is 70 points. They have T4, 3+ Save, ATSKNF plus chapter tactics.

Comparatively, 5 IG stormtroopers with no upgrades are 82 points. They have T3 and 4+ Save (also deep strike and move through cover, useful abilities but they don't do anything towards survivability).

Another comparison, Chaos Space Marines: 75 points for five guys, including a unit champion "blessed" with one of the most stupid special rules ever. No ATSKNF, no chapter tactics.

I honestly fail to see how the SM Tactical Squads are that bad. Although I guess they'll look terrible if you're willing to swallow the we're the spess mehreens and we're da best all hail the emprah fluff, of course.


those storm troopers will, without a doubt in my mind, wreck that tac squad. every wound they cause is 1 dead marine. Marines on the other hand, cannot penetrate there armour.

I don't use CSM I use cultists (which are much better than CSM, which I also have qualms with, but don't play near as much so Don't offer suggestions on) and T-sons. at least you can make that chaos space marine squad doubly effective in CC over our SM for a mere 5pts. (or was it 10?)

 Wyzilla wrote:

Because Plague Marines have the evasion abilities of a drunk elephant.


Burn the Heretic
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Purge the Unclean 
   
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 AnomanderRake wrote:
Why is it that whenever we get "X doesn't reflect the fluff, we should buff it!" it's always a Marine player?


I don't see how your statement discredits the OP's.


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 raiden wrote:
those storm troopers will, without a doubt in my mind, wreck that tac squad. every wound they cause is 1 dead marine. Marines on the other hand, cannot penetrate there armour.

I don't use CSM I use cultists (which are much better than CSM, which I also have qualms with, but don't play near as much so Don't offer suggestions on) and T-sons. at least you can make that chaos space marine squad doubly effective in CC over our SM for a mere 5pts. (or was it 10?)


Not so sure about who will "wreck" who. Five storm troopers shooting at close range, hitting at 3+ and wounding at 5+ with no saves will kill 3 marines or so per turn in average. In return the marines hitting at 3+ wounding at 3+ and with a 4+ save will kill 2 stormtroopers. All that said, without taking into account chapter tactics. The stormtrooper squad is still 12 points more expensive than the marine tactical squad.

Regarding CSMs, it's two points per mini so 8 points actually (the champion comes already with both boltgun, pistol and ccw). Still no chapter tactics and no ATSKNF. And of course I expect chaos space marines being more effective than loyalists in CC, they're supossed to be specialist on the matter.

Progress is like a herd of pigs: everybody is interested in the produced benefits, but nobody wants to deal with all the resulting gak.

GW customers deserve every bit of outrageous princing they get. 
   
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Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight







But didn't you just hit the nail on the head? No one likes Tac, Chaos Marines, or Stormtroopers; you only take them if you can't help it. They all suck, so now we're just comparing who sucks the most.

 SHUPPET wrote:

wtf is this buddhist monk ascendant martial dice arts crap lol
 
   
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 Pyeatt wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
Why is it that whenever we get "X doesn't reflect the fluff, we should buff it!" it's always a Marine player?


I don't see how your statement discredits the OP's.


...I made a tangential observation. You have to look a little further down to find me discrediting the OP.

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 AnomanderRake wrote:
 Pyeatt wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
Why is it that whenever we get "X doesn't reflect the fluff, we should buff it!" it's always a Marine player?


I don't see how your statement discredits the OP's.


...I made a tangential observation. You have to look a little further down to find me discrediting the OP.


still don't really see it.

 Wyzilla wrote:

Because Plague Marines have the evasion abilities of a drunk elephant.


Burn the Heretic
Kill the mutant
Purge the Unclean 
   
Made in us
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Miles City, MT

I am against All space marines having relentless because it DOESN'T fit the fluff. Sure they are hulking super strong guys, but their weapons are supposedly built for large super strong guys in mind. Bigger, heavier weapons are more cumbersome, hence no relentless. I could see some iron hands having it due to bionics augmenting their already formidable strength, but even I don't think it would be army wide. I think certain hqs might give it to certain units or maybe certain infantry choices having it. But certainly not an army wide thing. 6+ FNP is far more believable and not game breaking or anywhere near as good as necrons' ability. Which would be appropriate. And I am pretty certain 5+ FNP army wide would be too much.

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 NorseSig wrote:
I am against All space marines having relentless because it DOESN'T fit the fluff. Sure they are hulking super strong guys, but their weapons are supposedly built for large super strong guys in mind. Bigger, heavier weapons are more cumbersome, hence no relentless. I could see some iron hands having it due to bionics augmenting their already formidable strength, but even I don't think it would be army wide. I think certain hqs might give it to certain units or maybe certain infantry choices having it. But certainly not an army wide thing. 6+ FNP is far more believable and not game breaking or anywhere near as good as necrons' ability. Which would be appropriate. And I am pretty certain 5+ FNP army wide would be too much.


Would this mean my Blood Claws with a Wolf Priest could have 5+ FNP?

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AnFéasógMór wrote:
 NorseSig wrote:
I am against All space marines having relentless because it DOESN'T fit the fluff. Sure they are hulking super strong guys, but their weapons are supposedly built for large super strong guys in mind. Bigger, heavier weapons are more cumbersome, hence no relentless. I could see some iron hands having it due to bionics augmenting their already formidable strength, but even I don't think it would be army wide. I think certain hqs might give it to certain units or maybe certain infantry choices having it. But certainly not an army wide thing. 6+ FNP is far more believable and not game breaking or anywhere near as good as necrons' ability. Which would be appropriate. And I am pretty certain 5+ FNP army wide would be too much.


Would this mean my Blood Claws with a Wolf Priest could have 5+ FNP?


Sure. It is one unit. Not the whole army. Even if you take 2 wolf priests (since if memory serves correct wolf priests are a hq choice, I have some familiarity with space wolves but not a lot) I dont think it would "break the game".

Twinkle, Twinkle little star.
I ran over your Wave Serpents with my car. 
   
Made in es
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine





 Quickjager wrote:
But didn't you just hit the nail on the head? No one likes Tac, Chaos Marines, or Stormtroopers; you only take them if you can't help it. They all suck, so now we're just comparing who sucks the most.


I take Chaos Marines and I don't think they're that bad. Not a great unit of course, but useful as long as you field them with a specific task in mind. Don't expect them to save the day, of course, but then they're just troops. Expensive troops yeah, and a sort of expensive jack of all trades troop in a game that currently favours specialists over anything else. But still they have a place in my lists.

Progress is like a herd of pigs: everybody is interested in the produced benefits, but nobody wants to deal with all the resulting gak.

GW customers deserve every bit of outrageous princing they get. 
   
Made in us
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant





 Korinov wrote:
 Quickjager wrote:
But didn't you just hit the nail on the head? No one likes Tac, Chaos Marines, or Stormtroopers; you only take them if you can't help it. They all suck, so now we're just comparing who sucks the most.


I take Chaos Marines and I don't think they're that bad. Not a great unit of course, but useful as long as you field them with a specific task in mind. Don't expect them to save the day, of course, but then they're just troops. Expensive troops yeah, and a sort of expensive jack of all trades troop in a game that currently favours specialists over anything else. But still they have a place in my lists.


the charge fodder

 Wyzilla wrote:

Because Plague Marines have the evasion abilities of a drunk elephant.


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Portland, Oregon

Quick side note, Death Company marines get it standard, and since they are some crazed super-spesh marines and if all space marines would get that would not make sense.

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 Ashiraya wrote:

Because Harker is of human strength and resilience, and Space Marines are of superhuman strength and resilience.
.


Because Harker is of human strength and resilience with superhuman point cost. Would you like 25 ppm relentless space marines or something?

On the sidenote, Harker is above regular human resilience. And he has FNP. Or at least used to have. And that's telling something.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/01/26 04:23:08


 
   
Made in es
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine





 raiden wrote:
 Korinov wrote:
 Quickjager wrote:
But didn't you just hit the nail on the head? No one likes Tac, Chaos Marines, or Stormtroopers; you only take them if you can't help it. They all suck, so now we're just comparing who sucks the most.


I take Chaos Marines and I don't think they're that bad. Not a great unit of course, but useful as long as you field them with a specific task in mind. Don't expect them to save the day, of course, but then they're just troops. Expensive troops yeah, and a sort of expensive jack of all trades troop in a game that currently favours specialists over anything else. But still they have a place in my lists.


the charge fodder


Yep

When they manage to reach the enemy line without sustaining casualties (something unlikely but heh) a 10 man squad with a pair of flamers delivers 29 WS4 F4 attacks (after some flaming in the shooting phase) that - while not amazing - will still do something against most opponents.

Specially if said opponents are SM tactical marines and you've invested some points in Veterans of the Long War

Progress is like a herd of pigs: everybody is interested in the produced benefits, but nobody wants to deal with all the resulting gak.

GW customers deserve every bit of outrageous princing they get. 
   
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 raiden wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
 raiden wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
 raiden wrote:
^ this. I am just trying to give an idea to make marines a bit more fluffy, with a bit more oopmh, and a bit more versatile.


Why Marines? Why nobody else? If we're going to go by lore why don't the Eldar get to pick every single random pregame die roll (for an extreme)?


eldar have rending weapons on almost all of their infantry (representing the lore of the monofiliment ammo used), they can run AND shoot. (representing there agility and swiftness).

tau have str5 guns, ap4, 30" range. representing their advanced technology. why do marines get nothing?


T4? The best infantry armour in the game? Storm Shields? Multirole squads? Sternguard? AV14? A broad selection of weapons with ranges longer than 36"? Drop Pods? Sicarians? Nothing?

This is really starting to sound like a case of the grass being greener in the next guy's Codex.


I was discussing basic infantry, not the entire codex, our codex in a whole is a solid mid-topmid tier, I am discussing infantry and basic troops, as represented in the weaponry I described.

T4. best armour in the game- lol. 3+ is indeed nice, but half the things in tau/eldar codex get that as well, with better weapons and options, not to mention over half the stuff fielded in even semi-competitive games today is ap3 or rending.

sternguard- yes, I admit these are probably the best unit in the SM codex bar none, they are good, but compared to the "best" of the other codices....


now moving on, tactical squads, ASM, Sternguad... none of these can take Storm shields, AV14- 250 points base, comes with 2 TLLC and a TLHB, or TL AC and 2 Hurricane bolters..

eldar- wave serpents. all I am saying.
nid-flyrant
etc.

multirole squads? please enlighten me on this multirole squad, tacticals are indeed slightly more versatile then some other infantry, but you give tau firewarriors emp grenades and watch them wreck vehicles all day, even walkers, with ease.

I will be honest, when I proposed this, I intended it to be a tactical squad only special rule, I realize I didn't state that in the original post which is my bad and I shall rectify this. However you cannot say tactical squads are extremely lackluster compared to other troops. I simply wanted to make them a little more versatile in that they could fire rapid fire/heavy (which they will have, at most, 1 of each at 150pts+) then charge, and be FLEXIBLE like they are supposed to be.

we have 2 weapons that most of our infantry models can take with range above 36, thats the ML and the LC, 15 and 20 points respectively. and both are heavy.

You can't give it to tacticals and not all power armor marines. I can attest - no point cost increase is needed. With the current iteration of the bolter, relentless marines would be fairly priced at 14 points and are currently over priced. Up the costs of the heavy weapons by 5-10 points depending. Then reduce the cost of a razorback upgrades by 10-15 points. This would in my mind come close to fully balancing the codex, only 1 more fix would be needed - terminators. Maybe just allowing rhinos to transport them would fix them. Maybe they need more help not sure but they are currently super overpriced.

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West Chester, PA

 koooaei wrote:
 Ashiraya wrote:

Because Harker is of human strength and resilience, and Space Marines are of superhuman strength and resilience.
.


Because Harker is of human strength and resilience with superhuman point cost. Would you like 25 ppm relentless space marines or something?

On the sidenote, Harker is above regular human resilience. And he has FNP. Or at least used to have. And that's telling something.


FTR, Harker costs 55 points.

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2500 points
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While a cool idea wouldn't it just be easier to make the bolter have the assault special rule then give ALL Marines relentless? That would be op in my opinion.


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Belgium

Ok i'm cool with that, but then my CSM all Gets Eternal Warrior for 3ppm..., why?, Because Chaos thats why!

   
 
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