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Instead of giving them a 3++ re-rollable, which is pretty ridiculous, just give them 2 wounds each or artificer armour. That way they don't die to massed fire while shrugging off melta and plasma shots.

Also the idea of a sororitas sheathing a lance to draw a pistol really breaks my suspension of disbelief. The Bolt Pistol seems really superfluous on these models, even when the superior swaps out for an inferno pistol.

Very good point about the pistol. I think I'll drop it. TH/SS Terminators and Ecclesiarchy/Inquisition Crusaders, which have a comparable shield-and-weapon loadout, don't have pistols.

Two wounds on something that's not an Independent Character is something I'm very leery of, though, especially when even Terminators don't have it. And likewise I'm leery of giving an entire squad of Sisters artificer armor when historically it's not a Sisters thing and Marine fanboys will probably howl that I've even given it to the Canoness....

I'm repeating myself a lot between your thread and Melisia's so check what I posted there.

You could just make them cheaper, more models means more wounds. Overall the squad is tougher and more hard hitting for it.

If your really dead set, on them being as tough as Terminators, then I'd start piling on Special rules like Feel No Pain, or To Wound rolls of 6 must be re-rolled against them.

Tough as Termies they should not be. But I'm not sure what to drop to lower the cost, other than the bolt pistol, which is worth a couple points at most:

Jump pack, storm shield, & power weapon are key to their visuals as well as their role.
Upgrading them to a Celestian statline only makes sense: why would anyone worse at melee than a Celestian be given better melee wargear than a Celestian?
Furious Charge is less critical but still important to their uniqueness, since it makes them hit harder than regular S:3 Sisters without having to take an Eviscerator or Power Axe that forces them to strike last.

Ideas welcome!

I'd take away hit and run and make their act of Faith give them +1 Strength on the Charge + Shred.

They shouldn't need to be jumping in and out of combat if they don't even have any guns. That's the Seraphim's thing.

So you want them S6 on the charge then? Hit and run seems cool to me.
It makes sense both fluffwise and mechanics wise because of them jumping out and recharging the unit every turn for the extra strength and attacks.

Yes, that's the idea behind the combo of Furious Charge, Power Lance, Hit & Run, and an AOF boosting charge and Hit & Run moves. I like the visual, too, with Principalities swooping down on the foe, striking, then soaring away before their foes can get to grips with them -- before swooping down again, relentless and elusive like avenging angels.

It fits with the theme of agility making up for fragility that I've used in my other fandex units (e.g. Thrones, which are Sororitas Bikers with Hit&Run). It makes them very distinct from Marine melee units, which benefit from T:4 and ATSKNF and so could outlast them in combat -- if only they could catch them.

Here is (I think) the final version of the Principalities, complete with fluff. They've lost their bolt pistols altogether but gained the ability ("Blaze of Glory") to reroll failed invulnerable saves only on the turn after they Deep Strike, which should make dropping from the sky behind enemy lines significantly less suicidal. (Inspired by Anomander Rake's suggestion here).



Principality Squad: 150 points (Elite)
Principality WS:4 BS:4 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:3 A:2 Ld:9 Sv:3++
Superior WS:4 BS:4 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:3 A:2 Ld:9 Sv:3++

Unit Composition: 4 Principalities, 1 Principality Superior
Unit Type: Jump Infantry; Superior is Jump Infantry (character)

Wargear: power armor, storm shield, power lance, frag grenades, krak grenades, jump pack

Special Rules: Act of Faith, Shield of Faith, Furious Charge, Hit & Run

Blaze of Glory
The Principalities descend from the heavens with a speed, skill, and fury unmatched by other jump troops. They use their jump packs to accelerate their fall, rather than to brake it, until the last possible moment, descending face-first with their storm shields held out in front to protect from the friction of their rush through the atmosphere. By the time they land, their shields are glowing hot and their force fields are crackling. This energetic interaction -- and, say the faithful, the blessing of the God-Emperor -- gives them extra protection at a moment of tactical vulnerability.
After a unit of Principalities enters play by Deep Strike, it may reroll failed saves against shooting attacks until the beginning of its next turn.

Act of Faith: Leap of Faith: One use only. This Act of Faith can be used in either player's Assault phase. If successful, the unit must add 3" to the distance rolled whenever it charges, attempts to Hit & Run, or Falls Back, until the end of this phase.


Options:
May add up to five additional Principalities: 30 points per model
Any model may replace her power lance with a power sword: free
Any model may take melta bombs: 5 pts
The Principality Superior may replace her power lance with an Eviscerator: 15 pts
One model may replace her power lance with Longinus Lance: 15 pts

Longinus Lance
An ancient power lance with sacred relics embedded in the shaft.
A model with a Longinus Lance counts as having both a Power Lance and a Simulacrum Imperialis.


Descending from the heavens in gleaming glory, the Principalities are the elite of the elite among the Sisterhood. To join their ranks, a Sister must first prove herself as a jump trooper among the Seraphim and as a close combatant among the Celestians. Only then is she deemed worthy of the powerful and venerable wargear of the Principalities: a forcefield-generating Storm Shield and an armor-penetrating power weapon, typically a lance. With these the Principalities practice tactics of hit and run and hit again, falling upon the foe and then swiftly wheeling out of reach.
A wise Sororitas commander knows that, for all their superior skill and wargear, the Principalities remain as mortal as any other Sister and must not be committed to prolonged slogging matches. Instead, the Sororitas use them either as the flying spearhead of Deep Strike attacks, often escorted and screened by Seraphim, or as a highly mobile counterattack force, kept behind the line until the crucial moment.

Costing:

Whoops -- I realize I gave them a re-rollable invulnerable save against all attacks the turn after they Deep Strike. That's meant to be against shooting attacks only (which is still plenty powerful!). Fixed now.

I like it. Can still counter them by countercharging or using weight of fire, but they won't be wiped out by a battle cannon the turn they arrive.

They're just as expensive as my Gal Vorbak (another melee specialist unit) but exchange resilience for mobility. Just for fun, let's see how they stack up in assault against each other? I expect the Vorbak to come out ahead since their mobility advantage is less useful when you have reached the actual melee, and they really are not the Principalities' intended targets, but we'll see.

5x unupgraded Gal Vorbak - 200 pts (30 ppm, but they pay a very hefty in-built 50 pts tax for their Dark Martyr)

7x unupgraded Principalities - 210 pts

Round 1 - Principalities Assault Gal Vorbak



Round 2, Gal Vorbak Assault Principalities



Now, clearly footslogging WS5 S5 T5 W2 models with bucketloads of AP- attacks and an invulnerable save is not what you want them to fight, to say the least. Let's compare them to another unit we all know and love - Terminators.

5x unupgraded Terminators - 200 pts

7x unupgraded Principalities - 210 pts

Round 1, Principalities Assault Terminators



Round 2, Terminators Assault Principalities



Okay, that was not very impressive either. Whoah, a unit with Ap3 attacks are ineffective against Terminators. Go figure. It is the one thing they are good at tanking.

Let's look at something the Principalities should do very good at - fighting expensive, fragile elite melee units with powerful weapons. Chaos Chosen! Rawr! A staple of my own lists.

7x Principalities - 210 points

7x Chaos Chosen - 216 points (2 swords, 2 axes, 2 mauls)

Round 1 - Principalities Assault Chosen



Round 2 - Chosen Assault Principalities



...Well. That surprised me. Chosen are considered poor melee units and are also the ideal target for Principalities, with their lack of invulns, T4 3+, and strong power weapons.

The result is clear, and my conclusion is as follows.

Principalities are fast, but they are more fragile to shooting than comparable melee specialists and reliably lose to them in close combat. They are extremely reliant on the charge bonus to do any damage at all. Rerollable 3++ against shooting on the turn they drop down is great, but they will still easily die to weight of fire, just like Terminators do. 3++ rerollable is better than 2+, but T3 is much worse than T4 at soaking large amounts of fire. Orks are their absolute nightmare, ranged and melee.

My suggestion is to drop the price a further 5 ppm and grant them Hit and Run. Makes them more affordable, making it easier to buy proper support and distractions. Hit and Run lets them make more use of their charge bonus instead of getting tarpitted.

I like the Deep Strike approach, but my math concurs with Ashiraya's. It's looking to me like T3/I3 is killing them in fights with other assault units, maybe give them an Initiative bonus when charging? And/or a points drop.

Very revealing math. Ironic that they do better (well, less badly) against the Terminators than against the other two match-ups, largely because of Initiative: I:3 is just begging for death. So Anomander's idea for an initiative bonus is very tempting.

I already upgraded them with Hit&Run -- which higher I would help anyway -- and T:4 Sisters (except on bikes) really break with the "only human (the best humans)" theme of the army.

Make the lances give an I bonus on the charge. Like +2 I.

IG Rough Rider lances already do this. There's a precedent.

They should be all about hitting hard and fast, not dogging it out in protracted combat.

The chief reason Terminators do badly is because they have a low number of attacks, not because of initiative. 2 attacks base per model, 3 on the charge. Gal Vorbak have 3/5 (Dark Martyr has 4/6) and Chosen have 3/4 (and can take MoK).

Good point. And there's an Act of Faith from previous editions that granted +2 Initiative, as well. I put that in the general list available via my homebrew "Book of Acts," but maybe the Principalities are the ones who really, really need it -- or maybe they should always an IC with them carrying the book, or their Superior should have the option to take it (normal Superiors don't).

Why aren't they Initiative 4 base, as Celestians and Seraphim were in Codex: Witch Hunters and should be now.

I agree, Celestians and Seraphim should be, but they aren't -- and my self-imposed limitation is to make units that work with the current digital codex, rather than trying to replace it. (Hence my use of the term "fandex/expandex"). People like J3f and Melissia aren't constraining themselves that way.

That said, these are meant to be super-elites, so if any one Sisters unit has I:4, Principalities are it.... Even in the current 'dex, Canonesses get I:4, so it wouldn't be completely incompatible.

I insist on keeping them I3 base, but we've had that debate already.

Oh, I'm not planning to touch Celestians or Seraphim, but I'm honestly tempted for this one unit.

The math above reminds me why I keep a pair of 2xLC terminators in my assault squad. Not everything needs the hammers, and sometimes you just need to mulch though MEQ (or lighter).

I’m not sold on the re-rolling of saves after deepstrike. Seems potentially very strong. If you want a decent in a blinding column of light, I might try to do something with the blind rule, or give them jink for a turn.

Ooh, ooh, I wanna try a comparison.

Base Principalities (150 pts)
10x Howling Banshees, including an Exarch with Executioner (150 pts). Assuming Morale checks are passed, and no Hit & Run.

If the Banshees charge, the Principalities are screwed. 27 attacks hitting on 4, wounding on 4 nets 2.25 unsaved wounds, while the Exarch with 3 attacks deals another .556 Wounds (hits on 3, wounds on 2). So on the charge, the Banshees will inflict almost 3 Wounds. Without charge bonuses, the Principalities are now down to 2 members, who will net 0.5 Wounds. Exarch takes the 1 Wound, and continues to fight. Next turn, the Banshees will cause another 1,870 Unsaved Wounds, assuming one Principality survives she is going to only cause 0,250 Wounds. If she doesn't book it now, next turn its over.

On the inverse, however, if the Principalities charge, the Banshees will cause 1,870 Wounds leaving 3 Principalities. With their 9 attacks at Strength 5, they will cause 3.750 Wounds. If the Banshees don't run away, we revert to the Banshees killing the Sisters slightly faster. Ultimately the Banshees will win, but it will be much closer.

Pretty sure lances are just +1 str on the charge, not +2.

They are also AP4 even when not charging, at least denying the banshees their armour save.

The Banshees are way more fragile against shooting and are slower, do count that in.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Pretty sure lances are just +1 str on the charge, not +2.

They are also AP4 even when not charging, at least denying the banshees their armour save.

The Banshees are way more fragile against shooting and are slower, do count that in.

Your right, I screwed up on the AP. However, the reason they have +2 Strength on the charge is that the Principalities have Furious Charge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So lets switch it up a bit.

7x Principalities vs 10 Striking Scorpions including Exarch with Scorpion Claw (210 pts vs 210 pts).

Principalities charge:
At Initiaitve 10, 10 Mandiblasters (auto hit, wound on 4+), so, 5 Wounds inflicted, 1,667 Wounds taken.
Exarch at Init 6, 3 attacks, hitting on 3, wounding on 2, 0,556 Wounds.
9 Scorpions, at Init 5, 18 attacks, hitting on 4, wounding on 3s, leaves another 2 dead (approximately 4 dead Principalities).
Sisters strike back, hitting on 4, wounding on 2, deal 3.75 Wounds. Tied combat.
Mandiblasters deal 0.889 Wounds, Exarch deals 0.556 Wounds, Scorpions deal 1.111, leaving on principality standing who deals 0.167 Wounds. Following turn (if she doesn't run, Scorps win.

Scorpions charge
Mandiblasters inflict 1.667 Wounds, Exarch inflicts 0.741 Wounds, Scorpions inflict 3 Wounds. 5 Dead.
Principalities strike back, dealing .333 Wounds. Exarch takes it, Scorps win next round.

Note that if the Superior accepts a challenge, the Exarch will have an extra 3 attacks for the first round. The Superior will not survive.

Initiative is a bitch, ain't it. And Eldar, among other races, having access to I:5 makes the +2 Initiative Act Of Faith (giving I:5) more attractive than a straight +1 to Initiative in the statline (I:4), as well as easier to justify fluffwise.

 Happyjew wrote:
the Principalities have Furious Charge.

I forgot this entirely in my calculations.

The SoB would have done a little bit better on the charge.

Okay, so we should redo the math, giving the Principalities
(1) Hammer of Wrath on the charge (jump infantry, remember!)
(2) Furious Charge on the, well, charge
(3) +2 Initiative from an Act of Faith (in Codex:Witch Hunters, this Act could be used in either player's Assault Phase)
(4) Hit & Run out of combat after the first round (with Initiative boosted to 5, they ain't flubbing that Initiative test).

I'm way too tired to run this Mathhammer now, but I imagine it would make a minor difference against Terminators -- who are already striking at I:1 with their power fists, except for the sarge -- but a big difference against Banshees (if the Principalities get the charge) and Chaos Chosen.

What else would be good match-ups to test the value of Principalities? Remember going up against other melee specialists is an important measure but not the only one: Ideally, you want the rest of your Sisters to be shooting the enemy melee specialists while the Principalities charge some squishy T:3 shooters or psykers and Instant-Death them. So Tac Marines and Guard would actually be interesting match-ups.

My only problem is that you didn't actually give them the deepstrike special rule, unless you were putting them in a drop pod or something.

Everything else looks good. Still a bit expensive, but a very cool unit that will kill its fair share of baddies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also semantics here, but the unit does not actually HAVE the Blaze of Glory listed as a special rule. Its just described under it.

I personally don't think its an issue, but you know how rule lawyers are.

 SisterSydney wrote:
Okay, so we should redo the math, giving the Principalities
(1) Hammer of Wrath on the charge (jump infantry, remember!)
(2) Furious Charge on the, well, charge
(3) +2 Initiative from an Act of Faith (in Codex:Witch Hunters, this Act could be used in either player's Assault Phase)
(4) Hit & Run out of combat after the first round (with Initiative boosted to 5, they ain't flubbing that Initiative test).

I'm way too tired to run this Mathhammer now, but I imagine it would make a minor difference against Terminators -- who are already striking at I:1 with their power fists, except for the sarge -- but a big difference against Banshees (if the Principalities get the charge) and Chaos Chosen.

What else would be good match-ups to test the value of Principalities? Remember going up against other melee specialists is an important measure but not the only one: Ideally, you want the rest of your Sisters to be shooting the enemy melee specialists while the Principalities charge some squishy T:3 shooters or psykers and Instant-Death them. So Tac Marines and Guard would actually be interesting match-ups.

First I did not include Hammer of Wrath, because that will not always happen (you'll notice I also did not include Overwatch). Second, I screwed up with the Power Lances, forgetting thy were AP4, which drastically improves their chances against Banshees. Against Scorpions, however they are still in trouble. I also did not factor in Hit & Run for the same reason I assumed regardless of modifiers, the moral check was passed - to see how long combat would go for.

Just a heads up.
I'm pretty certain that a power lance is S+1 ap3 on the charge and S-user ap4 every other time.
Thats how it is in the SM codex weapon profiles at least.

That is correct, and it is how I treated them in my mathhammer.

I will redo my own mathhammering later, but in most cases they were so soundly beaten that another round of striking before the enemy grinds them down will not save them.

I am also pretty sure that deepstriking them down may have funny results unless you're careful. Even my Havocs can beat them on a point per point basis in melee if the SoB can't get the charge.

Hit and Run has its limits too. If you use it during your Act of Faith turn, it will be the enemy turn next, leaving the SoB very vulnerable indeed.

I'm more in the Initiative Bonus when Assaulting camp.

I say give them Ecstasic Assault in place of Furious Charge, which would basically be the older version of Furious Charge - +1 Strength, +1 Initiative when assaulting. Possibly Rapturous Assault, since the use of Ecstasy to mean a Religious Trance has fallen out of fashion somewhat.