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Daedalus81 wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:


It's obvious that they exist simply to give Marines a more appropriate scale, so why the in-universe changes? The new Rubric Marines are bigger, and they were given no fluff to explain it because it wasn't necessary. Deathwatch, too.

Then perhaps the in universe changes are, because they wanted to tell the story that way? Those examples are really old and small subsets of the bigger ranges of marines out there.

Long Answer:
Why the in-universe change, and not just "hey, here are new models if you want them, and like their aesthetics"?

Because with an fluff change, they are different units, with different units, they can have different rules; when those different rules are BETTER MARINES, players want them in their armies - and thus, even if they did not care for the appearance, they will buy them.

I mean, dreds are going to be good again (maybe.,..) would you field an old dred, or a New and Improved dred?

Short Answer:
To sell more models, silly.

Things need refreshing. I know lots of people are excited about the idea of something actually changing in the 40k universe. I've heard lots of people talking about whether they are going to make an Ultima Founding chapter or a company of primaris marines that reinforces an existing chapter.

I personally like how the units arranged by Roboute use Horus Heresy era squad organizations with all bolters in Intercessor Squads and hope the rumour is true that the special and heavy weapons will be concentrated in their own squads.

I like how they acknowledged the fact we've all known for a while: space marines aren't good enough. They've barely kept a galaxy at a status quo. Their elite nature is often talked about in operational terms and is often outside the scope of the game of 40k. The Primaris marines at least are actually immediately obviously super human.

It's like Space Marines are finally going to match their ideal.

Hard to argue better in game without seeing points...

davethepak wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:


It's obvious that they exist simply to give Marines a more appropriate scale, so why the in-universe changes? The new Rubric Marines are bigger, and they were given no fluff to explain it because it wasn't necessary. Deathwatch, too.

Then perhaps the in universe changes are, because they wanted to tell the story that way? Those examples are really old and small subsets of the bigger ranges of marines out there.

Long Answer:
Why the in-universe change, and not just "hey, here are new models if you want them, and like their aesthetics"?

Because with an fluff change, they are different units, with different units, they can have different rules; when those different rules are BETTER MARINES, players want them in their armies - and thus, even if they did not care for the appearance, they will buy them.

I mean, dreds are going to be good again (maybe.,..) would you field an old dred, or a New and Improved dred?

Short Answer:
To sell more models, silly.

Also it kind of sucks to have this super cool new addition to all the space marine armies who cost more than roughriders and are barely more useful.

While I think that's generally true, GW rarely comes out with a new model that has bad rules, but sometimes the rules are just solid and not OP, I think it's a bit cynical to blame GW for wanting to sell more models. I mean the top brass are probably fairly wealthy but not like, oil baron Scrooge McDuck levels of rich, and it does cost a lot of money to develop new rule sets and run the stores we all play at and buy from and stuff.

Of course if all anybody plays after this summer is primaris marine armies or non-primaris vs non-primaris then there's a huge problem. What we've seen so far doesn't seem to bear that out though. They've got better bolters and two wounds, but are a fair bit more expensive and don't mix weapons in squads. With tac marines you can have a special and a heavy weapon, both of which can split fire, and defender chooses wound allocation so you can pop off your bolter marines when you get hit with a battle canon shot and save your missile launcher.

I'm kind of having a hard time figuring out how I will add Primaris Marines to my existing Marine forces. Assuming they will have some of the special rules for those chapters of course. Pitty, as I love the models. I'll still get them of course, they just might not see play.

Dark Angels. Sure, they may fit right in. I'm a little more shooting than assaulty.... so they may work.

Space wolves. Hm.... I generally run horde foot sloggers. Not exactly sure what they'd add here.

Death Watch. Well.... they could be good, but DW special ammo is still better than the Primaris bolter. Don't think they'd add much unless I can mix them in a squad with terminators (now that'd be sweet).

Grey knights. Now this is totally silly. A GK Primaris would be worse in almost every way than a standard GK. A storm bolter is probably (judging by combi bolter stats) going to be better in most regards than a Primaris bolter. Also, Primaris will lack any force weapons to use.

I feel pretty lucky as a chaos man, these new Plague Marines are a replacement, meaning I can still use my old Forge World ones, /phew


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I do like the fluff that old marines can become Primaris, let's our old favorite heroes live on with moar powah.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It really comes down to the Chaos Marines. If they never release a Chaos Marine in the current size/scale, and all Chaos Marine releases from hereon in are NuMarine scale, then we'll know that their aim is to replace them all eventually.

Shame. I really wanted a plastic Havoc Squad. And Oblits. And Noise Marines. And Plague Marines. And new 'Zerkers.

I would say good riddance. The plastic chaos space marines are horrible models (that I unfortunately own a big number of). They were made as a exercise work for some new sculptors back in the day, and it unfortunately shows.

 Desubot wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:
I am so stoked that they confirmed defender chooses casualties.

Casualty removal is soooo bad in 7th.

It kinda made sense that things would die from the front when getting shot from the front. but realistically all it did was put special characters wayyy in the back and that looks lame. i love this change. also wonder if snipers can chose their targets too. i know they can for characters but special weapon sniping is important yo.

Actually now it's worse. Before characters often DID lead from the front with their 2+/3++/5+++ with rerolls soaking wounds. Now that will lead to instant vaporization so characters will be at the rear. Or rather surrounded by other guys.

Problem was it allowed for silly exploits like that and without those kind of characters made assault rather hard.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It really comes down to the Chaos Marines. If they never release a Chaos Marine in the current size/scale, and all Chaos Marine releases from hereon in are NuMarine scale, then we'll know that their aim is to replace them all eventually.

Shame. I really wanted a plastic Havoc Squad. And Oblits. And Noise Marines. And Plague Marines. And new 'Zerkers.

We already know we're getting new Plague Marines...

 Rippy wrote:

I do like the fluff that old marines can become Primaris, let's our old favorite heroes live on with moar powah.

Wait, wut?

Source?

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
I'm quite surprised with how they translated the Annihilation Barge. It seems like they really missed the obvious opportunity to just give it Quantum-level stats (T8 2+ or 3+) but subject the vehicle to degradation effects (as seen in the Morkonaut profile).

...Which they clearly didn't do, because the released statline doesn't have stars for T or Save values.

So instead of using a perfectly usable mechanics that is a reasonable implementation of the fluff, they've (probably) decided to use a Bespoke rule. Kinda disappointing.

Or maybe Quantum Shielding makes it so that weapons can only ever do 1 damage at a time, making it a very survivable long-range unit that is more vulnerable to small arms fire than other heavy tanks. That would be pretty unique for the Necrons and make for an interesting unit on the table top.

 Azazelx wrote:

 Rippy wrote:

I do like the fluff that old marines can become Primaris, let's our old favorite heroes live on with moar powah.

Wait, wut?

Source?

Yea, I think they meant our old plastic models can be used as Primaris, not that Primaris is a new career path.

 Azazelx wrote:

 Rippy wrote:

I do like the fluff that old marines can become Primaris, let's our old favorite heroes live on with moar powah.

Wait, wut?

Source?

The Q&A they did early (really early) this morning for us Australians.

The said that the process to create Primaris Marines isn't just growing them in test tubes, but also can follow the current way Space Marines are made on top of also being used to upgrade existing Marines.

It's like some wonder-elixir or something.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
He's also on a 40mm base rather than a 32mm, and he has a CCW/Power Sword, so he's a fancy-something.

And he's by himself!

I'm going to name him Steve! And no one can stop me!

For his last birthday I got my friend the DKoK Commissar that's unsheathing his sword. He uses him as a Lord Commissar. I started calling him Steve. It sort of stuck.

 Breotan wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:

 Rippy wrote:

I do like the fluff that old marines can become Primaris, let's our old favorite heroes live on with moar powah.

Wait, wut?

Source?

Yea, I think they meant our old plastic models can be used as Primaris, not that Primaris is a new career path.

From the sound of the Q&A, that seems like more of a background thing - Primaris marines can either be vat-grown, or recruited as normal, or converted from normal Marines

So you could, conceivably, have Marneus Calgar undergo the Primaris process

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
I've been a truescale fan for a long time, and plan to do it to all my Marines eventually. I'm very glad for the corrected models, but I just wish the fluff wasn't so stupid.

I keep hearing this but I don't really understand the why? I guess I'm not all that familiar with the nitty gritty of the grimdark but to me Cawl and Rowboat making new marines is pretty much the same as like...making a new type of bolter or a new rocket launcher or w/e. I mean, it kind of makes sense to try and improve the process/product over time. Admittedly 'doing things that make sense with technology' is not exactly 40k's calling card but still...

That's not the problem. It's the idea that Space Marines just aren't good enough. From those venerable Legionaries who first sailed out on the Great Crusade to the armies and characters we have now, the existence of the Primaris is GW saying "not good enough". It doesn't matter if they're 10,000 year old Chaos Marines, First Company Veterans, Terminators, Chapter Masters, Deathwatch, Grey Knights - they're not good enough. This post says it quite well:

 warboss wrote:
If it were just a model scale/asthetics change and a moderate fluff change (new Mk X armor and new pattern bolter!), I'd be fine with it. It's the fluff replacement of Adeptus Astartes with Adeptus Restartes that bothers me the most as it was unnecessary. I've dealt with the switch from monopose 2nd edition plastics and hybrid plastic/metals to 3rd edition omnimarine kit to specialized class plastic kits (like all plastic devs) to specialized variants for each chapter.. and I didn't bat an eyelash at any of them (and most I applauded at the time regardless if my own models were being replaced). Changing the fluff to officially make the original marines like an Iphone 4 in an 6S universe was completely unnecessary. If they wanted to improve marine stats to something more akin to what the fluff says, I'd have applauded that as well if they just grandfathered all marines in at the same time instead of downgrading the ones we already had.

It's obvious that they exist simply to give Marines a more appropriate scale, so why the in-universe changes? The new Rubric Marines are bigger, and they were given no fluff to explain it because it wasn't necessary. Deathwatch, too.

But marines AREN'T good enough. They have failed and fallen on literally apocalyptic scale, they've inherited all the evils of men while at the same time being themselves inhuman. Some of them even have obvious incurable defects that people seem pretty cool ignoring. The one thing I've taken away from all the fluff revolving space marines is that for genetically perfect super soldiers they sure do screw things up a lot.

In the Warhammer TV FAQ on Facebook they said the Imperium has the technology that existing marines can be upgraded to Primaris. I guess they get lots of surgery and put in a pod or something.

ERJAK wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
I've been a truescale fan for a long time, and plan to do it to all my Marines eventually. I'm very glad for the corrected models, but I just wish the fluff wasn't so stupid.

I keep hearing this but I don't really understand the why? I guess I'm not all that familiar with the nitty gritty of the grimdark but to me Cawl and Rowboat making new marines is pretty much the same as like...making a new type of bolter or a new rocket launcher or w/e. I mean, it kind of makes sense to try and improve the process/product over time. Admittedly 'doing things that make sense with technology' is not exactly 40k's calling card but still...

That's not the problem. It's the idea that Space Marines just aren't good enough. From those venerable Legionaries who first sailed out on the Great Crusade to the armies and characters we have now, the existence of the Primaris is GW saying "not good enough". It doesn't matter if they're 10,000 year old Chaos Marines, First Company Veterans, Terminators, Chapter Masters, Deathwatch, Grey Knights - they're not good enough. This post says it quite well:

 warboss wrote:
If it were just a model scale/asthetics change and a moderate fluff change (new Mk X armor and new pattern bolter!), I'd be fine with it. It's the fluff replacement of Adeptus Astartes with Adeptus Restartes that bothers me the most as it was unnecessary. I've dealt with the switch from monopose 2nd edition plastics and hybrid plastic/metals to 3rd edition omnimarine kit to specialized class plastic kits (like all plastic devs) to specialized variants for each chapter.. and I didn't bat an eyelash at any of them (and most I applauded at the time regardless if my own models were being replaced). Changing the fluff to officially make the original marines like an Iphone 4 in an 6S universe was completely unnecessary. If they wanted to improve marine stats to something more akin to what the fluff says, I'd have applauded that as well if they just grandfathered all marines in at the same time instead of downgrading the ones we already had.

It's obvious that they exist simply to give Marines a more appropriate scale, so why the in-universe changes? The new Rubric Marines are bigger, and they were given no fluff to explain it because it wasn't necessary. Deathwatch, too.

But marines AREN'T good enough. They have failed and fallen on literally apocalyptic scale, they've inherited all the evils of men while at the same time being themselves inhuman. Some of them even have obvious incurable defects that people seem pretty cool ignoring. The one thing I've taken away from all the fluff revolving space marines is that for genetically perfect super soldiers they sure do screw things up a lot.

That's a major part of this universe. No matter what you do, no matter who you are, you can't win.

ShaneHM wrote:
Or maybe Quantum Shielding makes it so that weapons can only ever do 1 damage at a time, making it a very survivable long-range unit that is more vulnerable to small arms fire than other heavy tanks. That would be pretty unique for the Necrons and make for an interesting unit on the table top.

Would also be change for sake of change. Quantum made it stronger against low S weapons. Low S being now weak point would be...odd.

The degrading T/save would have been appropriate if they wanted to keep it working in similar feel to before.

 frozenwastes wrote:
In the Warhammer TV FAQ on Facebook they said the Imperium has the technology that existing marines can be upgraded to Primaris. I guess they get lots of surgery and put in a pod or something.

This is, in my opinion, the single biggest piece of evidence leading to the phasing out of old marines.

Neronoxx wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:
In the Warhammer TV FAQ on Facebook they said the Imperium has the technology that existing marines can be upgraded to Primaris. I guess they get lots of surgery and put in a pod or something.

This is, in my opinion, the single biggest piece of evidence leading to the phasing out of old marines.

For me I was convinced when I saw just how close they are to regular marines in general appearance.

If they really were meant to be alongside them as a separate elite force I would have expected something that looks more ornate and special. Like the stormcast eternals with all their flourishes in their armour. Or the Deathwatch stuff with extra distinct parts. It makes no sense to make marines that are very similar looking but just bigger and pretend it is a completely distinct product range.

Yea, marines are failing. They can't hold the line, and many switch sides.

The numarines are not going to turn the tide even, just help hold on.
Cawl made 12k of them. 12k.

The thousand sons alone, has recently poured into the galaxy in a force of about 10k, out of which 1k are sorcerers and the rest rubrics/scarabs.
Saud rubrics/scarabs are meaner than numarines, sorcerers much more so.

This "new life" of the imperium is MAYBE enough to fight back the thousand sons, if the entire founding is decided to it.
Except the black legion also bursted into the scene in force, and we know the death guard is coming really soon. (and reasons to suspect the world eaters and emperor's children are not far behind)
Oh, and the IoM just lost a big portion of it's fighting power due to a massive rift cutting the galaxy in half, fenris and the rock getting messed up, cadia exploding, and bad things happening all over.

I don't see how things got less grimdark.
This so called indominus Crusade isn't trying to conquer the galaxy, it's a desperate attempt to hold to the little left.
If anything the IoM is in an even more dire start despite the numarines than in was prior to WoM.

As for the people saying "IoM inventing new stuff breaks the setting"
No its not? Multiple foundings were obviously experiments with mixing geneseed, using traitor geneseed and outright modification of the geneseed.
Things like spontaneous combustion, giant bone blades and gak don't "just happens". Someone made an experiment, and it went poorly.
With 10k years, and the experimental data of hundreds of chapters made during that time, finally getting it right would be the expected result. You just repeat the things that worked well,and avoid the things that horribly backfired.

The IoM getting a breakthrough once in a blue moon is reasonable. It's just that the IoM propaganda makes a huge deal of these numarines, when they really are not all that much of a big deal - it's not even enough to even the scale with chaos' latest advancements.

Hmm.

You know how if you're embarked on an open topped transport you'll be able to shoot out?

And how you can fire Pistols whilst in CC (not sure which phase though, but I assume the shooting phase?)

And how your vehicles can now charge?

What happens if you've got say, Banshees on a Raider, and the Raider charges? Do the Banshees get to fight? Enquiring minds wish to know!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Hmm.

You know how if you're embarked on an open topped transport you'll be able to shoot out?

And how you can fire Pistols whilst in CC (not sure which phase though, but I assume the shooting phase?)

And how your vehicles can now charge?

What happens if you've got say, Banshees on a Raider, and the Raider charges? Do the Banshees get to fight? Enquiring minds wish to know!

Well you can't disembark in the assault phase (or fight phase now) so if they disembark the next turn they can charge in.

Also to those asking about old marines being upgraded to Primaris in the fluff, QA summary in the OP

 ImAGeek wrote:
We already know we're getting new Plague Marines...

I mean... did you even read the first bit of the post before replying?

I really doubt there will ever be another CSM release in the old scale. We don't need Primaris Marines, Thousand Sons and Plague Marines already show the way. They are bigger than the old ones and they are better models for it. This is already half the cult troops, it's save to say the others wont be smaller once they get updates and they need updates.

Personally, I don't think it's an issue either, I got a lot of old CSM and I will keep using them next to the new ones till I'm bored of them, and then I'll replace them with big, fancy new ones.

Neronoxx wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:
In the Warhammer TV FAQ on Facebook they said the Imperium has the technology that existing marines can be upgraded to Primaris. I guess they get lots of surgery and put in a pod or something.

This is, in my opinion, the single biggest piece of evidence leading to the phasing out of old marines.

Yep - I totally agree this is exactly how they will phase out the current range. Any character they want to take forward will undergo Primaris transformation and be re-released in a new upscaled version. All others will slowly be killed in fluff or drop out of it. The units already sound like they are set for replacement, for example the Intercessors replace the Tacticals, reverting to the 30K squad equivalent where the specials exist in unique support squads. There's blurred image suggestion of new Assault squads. GW themselves rumoured new Dreadnaughts.

eedden wrote:
I really doubt there will ever be another CSM release in the old scale. We don't need Primaris Marines, Thousand Sons and Plague Marines already show the way. They are bigger than the old ones and they are better models for it. This is already half the cult troops, it's save to say the others wont be smaller once they get updates and they need updates.

Personally, I don't think it's an issue either, I got a lot of old CSM and I will keep using them next to the new ones till I'm bored of them, and then I'll replace them with big, fancy new ones.

Yes, and that's the reason why no CSM kits have been updated the last years. They have waited until they can make them Primaris size without getting scale-creep flak for it.

ClockworkZion wrote:I was thinking that the white and red striped model was a sergreant, but there is a red helmet in the background (denoting a vet) so maybe the one with the sword is a captain? He does have fancier armour.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also he's on a 40mm base.

Azazelx wrote:He's also on a 40mm base rather than a 32mm, and he has a CCW/Power Sword, so he's a fancy-something.

Red helmets in the Ultramarines denote Sergeants, White denotes Veteran status. Red and White is typically a Veteran Sergeant, unless Guilliman changed that portion of the Codex heraldry guide when he woke up. His armour also is no where near bling enough to be a captain of GW's new lovechild. He's at best a Veteran Sergeant with a wider base to accomodate his wide pose.

His chest looks a bit more rounded and a bit more like a Tartaros Terminator chestplate. They took the best elements of MkIV and VIII power armour for the MkX, maybe they took the best parts of Tartaros terminator armour and MkVIII for the new TDA.

 Rippy wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Hmm.

You know how if you're embarked on an open topped transport you'll be able to shoot out?

And how you can fire Pistols whilst in CC (not sure which phase though, but I assume the shooting phase?)

And how your vehicles can now charge?

What happens if you've got say, Banshees on a Raider, and the Raider charges? Do the Banshees get to fight? Enquiring minds wish to know!

Well you can't disembark in the assault phase (or fight phase now) so if they disembark the next turn they can charge in.

Also to those asking about old marines being upgraded to Primaris in the fluff, QA summary in the OP

Think there's confusion here.

I'm wondering if units embarked on an open topped transport will get to fight in HTH should that self same transport charge something.

On one hand, it makes a certain amount of sense. On the other, it does seem awfully dangerous. On the not-at-all-suspicious third hand...the Raider and Venom kits do have those natty riders....