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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Convenience would be my guess. Same model design platform and rapid prototyping type affair. If a Studio Member can design Mook Squad #39583, they can design a special character.

Up to a point, the process is the same regardless of the medium. The difference comes when the prototype is used to either make a silicon mould or is designed down into pieces and arranged on a sprue to be machined into a die. AFAIK that step is usually something done by a skilled specialist who knows what will and won't work, not by the designer, although I'll concede it's possible GW do it differently given its mostly in house.

It also suggests something about their confidence in their sales volumes. Only suggests though, not as if I or anyone else outside of GW's bean counters would have any actual data on that.

Do you mean it suggests a lack of confidence? Because given unit costs fall with volume in plastic, if they were confident of volume they might be less sharp in their pricing.

JohnHwangDD wrote:For small model production runs, I look at Kingdom Death: $25 per model, in resin, with fantastic detail. 35mm true scale, to boot!

Compared to GW, seems like KD is very fairly priced.

Tho I can't get free shipping to a local KD store, so there is that.

Overlooking your rabid attempts to shoe horn KD plugs into every possible post you're absolutely right. Outside of the GW eco system, the prices they charge are equivalent to the most boutique, most exclusive models from small producers, but their quality is equivalent, in the main, to the broader mass market product.

Not a lack of confidence, quite the opposite.

As already covered, it's generally accepted that it's cheaper to do metal or resin for low volume sales. Whilst you will eventually need to replace the molds, they're still a fraction of the cost of a steel cut die for plastic.

That GW feel they can sell enough, say, Kharn The Betrayers to cough up for a plastic sculpt suggests they're confident they can at least break even. And I used a named character specifically there because, in the grand scheme of things, you're most likely to sell only one to each collector, on account they can only ever field one. Whilst some might buy multiple because a) they just really really like it b) they use it for conversions c) they're a bit touched in the head d) Insert Reason Here, they're likely a comparative minority.

Whether they then sell them for £8, £18 or £88 is ultimately down to good ol' capitalism. And anyone thinking their competitors offer some kind of 'ethical' prices is fooling themselves!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Convenience would be my guess. Same model design platform and rapid prototyping type affair. If a Studio Member can design Mook Squad #39583, they can design a special character.

It also suggests something about their confidence in their sales volumes. Only suggests though, not as if I or anyone else outside of GW's bean counters would have any actual data on that.

I think it has a lot to do with the fact that lots of gamers don't like working with metal miniatures.

Plastic is easy to clean up and generally has far smaller mold lines, and the models are designed to be easier to clean by virtue of the casting process (i.e. the mold line will always be on the outside edge that's easy to reach). With metal (and resin), this just isn't the case. The flexible molds affords great freedom to the sculptor, but if there's any mold slip in casting, the end customer is in for some serious PITA cleanup.

So I can see someone spending $30 on a plastic character where they could get $15 metal characters from some other game/line that might be superior in detail, but be a much bigger time/effort sink to clean and prep. Those sorts of folks tend to value time over money, because they have more free time with money - so yeah, GW is catering to customers with lots of disposable income.

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Haven’t read much of the convo to this point, apologies. I’ve simultaneously considered their prices a ripoff and yet still bought them for the past 20 years. The difference is that for the past few years I only buy stuff above $30 U.S. from eBay, used (~50% off) or new at a discount.

I’m a bit of a fool, I suppose, as even with (or because of) the discounts, I have so many unassembled models, it’s ridiculous. I don’t really care for other companies’ products, and don’t play AoS or any other GW games. 40k is and will probably always be my only interest, wargaming-wise.

Like I said above this is the reason why discussions like these are hard to reconcile. People aren't arguing from different sides of the same hooby. They are arguing from the perspective of different hobbies.

niall78 wrote:

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Haven’t read much of the convo to this point, apologies. I’ve simultaneously considered their prices a ripoff and yet still bought them for the past 20 years. The difference is that for the past few years I only buy stuff above $30 U.S. from eBay, used (~50% off) or new at a discount.

I’m a bit of a fool, I suppose, as even with (or because of) the discounts, I have so many unassembled models, it’s ridiculous. I don’t really care for other companies’ products, and don’t play AoS or any other GW games. 40k is and will probably always be my only interest, wargaming-wise.

Like I said above this is the reason why discussions like these are hard to reconcile. People aren't arguing from different sides of the same hooby. They are arguing from the perspective of different hobbies.

Though it is generally only perceived as a different hobby by the GW hobbiests.

Wargamers do not see them as separate hobbies at all. (Because, really, they aren't, at least if the main reason a given hobbyist is buying the minis is to play the game. Collectors are a whole different kettle of fish.)

GW is finally starting to have decent rules again - even when I disagree strongly with how they market them.*

My hope, if not yet an expectation, is that as sales improve, the price of the miniatures will start to decrease.

But it is a delicate balancing act - drop the prices too early, or too fast, and you have cash flow problems.

Wait too long, or increase prices too far, and you suffer from the same drop in sales that GW is finally starting to recover from.

The Auld Grump

* I really, really wanted to jump in on the new Necromunda, but chopping the releases up the way they have means that I will be getting the minis - slowly - but skipping the new game for at least a year.

What they have for the new version is fine - it is the way that they have chopped up the releases that has me choking.Which is a damn shame - as I said, what they have is fine, and does a nice job of fleshing out the setting.

*EDIT* And, to be fair - because GW was kind enough to let folks continue to host the old Necromunda rules online, I don't have to upgrade the rules - which means that I can focus on getting the miniatures - which I do consider a great improvement on the older models, and a heck of a lot easier to modify. Overall - I think that the game is going in the right direction, it is only the way the rules are being broken down that annoys the hell out of me. Consider it a 7, when it could have been a 9.

Azreal13 wrote:Up to a point, the process is the same regardless of the medium. The difference comes when the prototype is used to either make a silicon mould or is designed down into pieces and arranged on a sprue to be machined into a die. AFAIK that step is usually something done by a skilled specialist who knows what will and won't work, not by the designer, although I'll concede it's possible GW do it differently given its mostly in house.

If I remember correctly they have software that helps and automates the sprue arranging process to a degree (that's why the cuts of individual dynamic character pieces look a bit odd). And their setup is rather simple, no undercuts that need side actions or other complicated stuff. And they can also use aluminium instead of steel (quicker and cheaper but less robust, depending on treatment) for miniatures that they don't expect to sell too well.

GW works at a scale where I can't really see pre-production cost (concept design, CAD, mould making) being a significant factor in their per box price, no matter how bad an individual box sells.

 Desubot wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
For small model production runs, I look at Kingdom Death: $25 per model, in resin, with fantastic detail. 35mm true scale, to boot!

Compared to GW, seems like KD is very fairly priced.

Tho I can't get free shipping to a local KD store, so there is that.

I forget the exact pricing but they transferred over to plastic (done by the malifaux guys iirc) and they are still 20 odd bucks no?

KDM models are initially released as resin for $25, and are converted to plastic for $15 each. KDM uses Wargames Factory (WGF) for this.

Wyrd (Malifaux) also uses WGF, but KDM is not engaging Wyrd for the plastic conversion - KDM manages the conversion directly with WGF.


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 Azreal13 wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:For small model production runs, I look at Kingdom Death: $25 per model, in resin, with fantastic detail. 35mm true scale, to boot!

Compared to GW, seems like KD is very fairly priced.

Tho I can't get free shipping to a local KD store, so there is that.

Overlooking your rabid attempts to shoe horn KD plugs into every possible post you're absolutely right. Outside of the GW eco system, the prices they charge are equivalent to the most boutique, most exclusive models from small producers, but their quality is equivalent, in the main, to the broader mass market product.

Psh. The only reason I bring up KD is because I have some understanding of them for comparison purposes. I suppose I could have gone with Arena Rex just as easily - those sculpts are very nice, but I'm not sure how they price out, so I can't make the value case.

Besides, you're far too charitable to GW - compared with a KD figure, GW's Kharne is an obviously inferior sculpt at a higher price point.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
You guys aren't even thinking with portals. GW could just put a monopose character on every regular troop sprue. Bingo bongo, you've got half a dozen different poses per faction pretty fast. You'd end up throwing most of them away but you do that with superfluous guns anyway.

Back to prices in gneral, the price of a cinema ticket is 6 times what it was in 91, GW seems on par or better.

I can't speak to where you live, but in the US a movie ticket in 1991 averaged $4.21, and now it averages $9.18, so you're off by an order of magnitude. If you adjust for inflation, movie ticket prices have remained essentially static for around 30 years, which is a pretty far cry from the land raider that was $50 when I started playing selling for $75 just a few years later - I want to say it jumped to that about 4 years after I started. It's not even the worst example, just the one that comes most readily to mind.

At one point IIRC in one of the stockholder reports a few years back, they said something about having found the upper bounds of price elasticity. It turned out that was pretty far from true, judging by the last 2 or 3 years.

 Ouze wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
You guys aren't even thinking with portals. GW could just put a monopose character on every regular troop sprue. Bingo bongo, you've got half a dozen different poses per faction pretty fast. You'd end up throwing most of them away but you do that with superfluous guns anyway.

Back to prices in gneral, the price of a cinema ticket is 6 times what it was in 91, GW seems on par or better.

I can't speak to where you live, but in the US a movie ticket in 1991 averaged $4.21, and now it averages $9.18, so you're off by an order of magnitude. If you adjust for inflation, movie ticket prices have remained essentially static for around 30 years, which is a pretty far cry from the land raider that was $50 when I started playing selling for $75 just a few years later - I want to say it jumped to that about 4 years after I started. It's not even the worst example, just the one that comes most readily to mind.

At one point IIRC in one of the stockholder reports a few years back, they said something about having found the upper bounds of price elasticity. It turned out that was pretty far from true, judging by the last 2 or 3 years.

I tried to price comparison a Land Raider last year to other kits produced by other makers at the same scale.

Closest I could get to its price was a World War One British Mark IV tank from one of the leading scale model manufacturers. This kit came with fully articulated tracks, brass gun barrels and photo etched parts. To get near the Land Raider price I added a motor and RC add-on that allowed to user to move the tank though a controller. The whole lot came in at less than the GW Land Raider.

 Ouze wrote:

At one point IIRC in one of the stockholder reports a few years back, they said something about having found the upper bounds of price elasticity. It turned out that was pretty far from true, judging by the last 2 or 3 years.

That pretty much says it all, though. They wanted to see how far they could push the price of things, rather than seeing what price brought in the most sales revenue. IMO that's not good thinking, because it assumes that the customer will buy the same amount until they stop buying entirely, which really isn't the case. More likely they spend less overall and start exploring other options, padding their existing armies rather than starting new ones, and spending the 'new army money' on different game companies.

Keeping your customers is important, because getting new customers costs a lot of money - this is true in every industry!

Pricing what the market will bear is smart business, as it allows them to optimize their position on the sales volume / price curve, without having to wonder whether they're leaving any money on the table (they're not). Producing slightly fewer items for higher overall revenue results in the highest possible net profit. This is common practice with every other luxury good like watches, jewelry, purses and women's clothing. It also applies to housing rental and airline tickets, where it's generally better to extract higher revenue even if you give up several low-/non-profit sales.

As a consumer, it's easy to choose whether to buy or not. In my case, I have slowly, but surely, sold off my GW backlog at a good price and basically stopped buying.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Pricing what the market will bear is smart business, as it allows them to optimize their position on the sales volume / price curve, without having to wonder whether they're leaving any money on the table (they're not). Producing slightly fewer items for higher overall revenue results in the highest possible net profit. This is common practice with every other luxury good like watches, jewelry, purses and women's clothing. It also applies to housing rental and airline tickets, where it's generally better to extract higher revenue even if you give up several low-/non-profit sales.

As a consumer, it's easy to choose whether to buy or not. In my case, I have slowly, but surely, sold off my GW backlog at a good price and basically stopped buying.

Somebody once said the end game for GW would be selling a ten foot high solid gold Space Marine a year to some kid from Dubai.

For who GW sees themselves as, that's not at all out of the question.

not sure if this has already been mentioned but has anyone factored in the cost of producing the moulds? the actual moulds for injection moulding are expensive to produce and with the case of the clam pack characters people are only likely to buy one of them and not everyone is going to buy one, GW have to factor this in which is why they are much more expensive due to this much more limited window for sales and the fact that they still have to cover the costs of producing the moulds, paying the designers etc.
that said those generic primaris characters prices are absurd for what they are, especially when compared to the prices of the primaris lieutenants that were released for the BA and DA.

It's been mentioned. Quite often. It's expensive, but not as expensive as some have made it out to be. Moreover, some of the kits are years old, the costs of their mould would have long since been made back (Land Raider I'm looking at you!).

You can fit 10 of those clampack figure frames in one mold plate. Need a comparison? Find some of the old Marine plastics. Jump Marines, Tacticals, whatever. Each Marine was its own little sprue connected to a bigger sprue. Slap 10 character models to 1 pressing and you shave down tooling design costs significantly. It'd shock me if they DON'T press them out like that.

 Just Tony wrote:
You can fit 10 of those clampack figure frames in one mold plate. Need a comparison? Find some of the old Marine plastics. Jump Marines, Tacticals, whatever. Each Marine was its own little sprue connected to a bigger sprue. Slap 10 character models to 1 pressing and you shave down tooling design costs significantly. It'd shock me if they DON'T press them out like that.

It doesn't really save on tooling costs. Bigger moulds require more machining and thus are more expensive.

It would just let them cast models faster by being able to punch out several models in a single casting. It doesn't look like they do though, models cast in bunches usually have an ugly bit of runner hanging off the side where it was broken away from the batch - current GW character models don't seem to have that.

It might be that they have smaller casting machines for smaller castings like characters and bigger casting machines for doing the big sprues on baneblades and whatnot.

I meant as far as having separate plates for each character.



Without touring their plant, I have NO IDEA what machines they use for injection molding. However, most machines are set up to only run a narrow width of sizes, so I assume that they may have about 4 or 5 plate sizes available, unless theirs is a machine that can adjust the plate mountings for the molds to take multiple sizes.

Nuff said. Absolute disgrace!

if you've got to the point where you're playing games that are large enough in scale to warrant use of the skyrunner council I think £100 is going to seem like nothing to you.

 oni wrote:

 Brotherjulian wrote:
I'm still dipping my toes in the water so to speak with 8th edition 40k. It seems promising but I have to wonder if I'm just throwing more money down the hole. I get enraged with them pulling the rug out from under me every few years and making me buy new stuff again. (Been in this game 23 years) So I'm into 8th ed now for the Dark Imperium set, as well as codexes for Space Marines, Blood Angels, Eldar, Chaos Marines, and Imperial Guard. Also a few boxes of Primaris guys, because they're good at getting my money.
What really got me though was the prices for individual plastic character models. I paid like $30 for a single BA jump pack chaplain. I work around the plastic industry and believe me, it isn't 30 cents worth of material.
I came home and was putting stuff away when I came across one of my EBay purchases from awhile back. A rogue trader/2nd edition metal techmarine, still in the blister pack. There's also an Imperial commisar in the same pack for some reason.
The 90s price tag for this model? $5.50
I'm not saying they should give em away but it's hard not to feel a little bit angry. I swear there are less expensive drug habits I could take up.

Really... You work around the plastic industry? What part of it? Let me guess; judging by your nescient comment... Raw material supplier. FYI; there's quite a bit more to it than just the cost of the plastic material.

Straight to assumptions that the OP has no idea what he is talking about and aggressive douchebaggery and open doubt. Impressive.

If I have misunderstood your tone, my apologies.

Out of interest, would anyone who works in the industry mind confirming roughly what, in 2017 it costs to tool a single mould for plastic sprues?

I know I see people quoting various numbers from time to time, but they are often from sources over ten years old.

 Glasdir wrote:
if you've got to the point where you're playing games that are large enough in scale to warrant use of the skyrunner council I think £100 is going to seem like nothing to you.

Careful that you don't spill that giant 7-Eleven mega mug of GW Kool Aid. The primary determinate of MSRP (or RRP for brits) of those particular space elves with spears on jetbikes compared with other almost identical in size, shape, and detail space elves with spears on jetbikes shouldn't be fluff IMO.

 Dysartes wrote:
Out of interest, would anyone who works in the industry mind confirming roughly what, in 2017 it costs to tool a single mould for plastic sprues?

One doesn't even need to work in the industry. Just look at the SJG Ogre Miniatures Set 2 Kickstarter, along with the current Dream Pod 9 Utopia Kickstarter. It's quite a bit less than $30k for a large tool. I suspect a single character tool is under $5k.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Pricing what the market will bear is smart business,.

Finding the sweet spot where price and sales volume align for maximum profit is smarter business. Now, if GW is at the point where they literally can't make more sales than they are capable of producing product, then ratcheting up prices makes sense (ignoring their current production problems, which are temporary).

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Pricing what the market will bear is smart business, as it allows them to optimize their position on the sales volume / price curve, without having to wonder whether they're leaving any money on the table (they're not). Producing slightly fewer items for higher overall revenue results in the highest possible net profit. This is common practice with every other luxury good like watches, jewelry, purses and women's clothing. It also applies to housing rental and airline tickets, where it's generally better to extract higher revenue even if you give up several low-/non-profit sales.

As a consumer, it's easy to choose whether to buy or not. In my case, I have slowly, but surely, sold off my GW backlog at a good price and basically stopped buying.

The approach you describe has lead to a boom in the industry of writing articles about why millennials are killing the economy by not buying stuff any more.

 warboss wrote:

 Glasdir wrote:
if you've got to the point where you're playing games that are large enough in scale to warrant use of the skyrunner council I think £100 is going to seem like nothing to you.

Careful that you don't spill that giant 7-Eleven mega mug of GW Kool Aid. The primary determinate of MSRP (or RRP for brits) of those particular space elves with spears on jetbikes compared with other almost identical in size, shape, and detail space elves with spears on jetbikes shouldn't be fluff IMO.

not sure you've quite understood what I was saying. that box set is entirely character models which do already sell for higher prices, in order to use all those models in a game you will have to be playing a very large game (at least 3000pts at the bare minimum) otherwise you wont be able to actually take them in a game legal detachment. In order to be playing such large games you'd have had to have spent a lot of money on your army already to make up the rest of it at which point spending £100 isn't going to seem like much to the person buying it as they will have already spend far more than that buying the rest of their army. microtransaction based games also have these people as well and you may well have heard them referred to by the term "whales" https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/63lvak/what_is_a_whale/

 Glasdir wrote:

 warboss wrote:

 Glasdir wrote:
if you've got to the point where you're playing games that are large enough in scale to warrant use of the skyrunner council I think £100 is going to seem like nothing to you.

Careful that you don't spill that giant 7-Eleven mega mug of GW Kool Aid. The primary determinate of MSRP (or RRP for brits) of those particular space elves with spears on jetbikes compared with other almost identical in size, shape, and detail space elves with spears on jetbikes shouldn't be fluff IMO.

not sure you've quite understood what I was saying. that box set is entirely character models which do already sell for higher prices, in order to use all those models in a game you will have to be playing a very large game (at least 3000pts at the bare minimum) otherwise you wont be able to actually take them in a game legal detachment. In order to be playing such large games you'd have had to have spent a lot of money on your army already to make up the rest of it at which point spending £100 isn't going to seem like much to the person buying it as they will have already spend far more than that buying the rest of their army. microtransaction based games also have these people as well and you may well have heard them referred to by the term "whales" https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/63lvak/what_is_a_whale/

Ok, thanks for clarifying. I agree that it's more likely for those who have spent $3000 on a faction to buy it compared with those who spent $300 but my point was that the prime determinate of the price of the product shouldn't be its fictional backstory.

Who cares if they are characters or not. The point is they probably cost about £5 to produce. I would understand if they were assembled and painted, but when you spend £100 and then open the box to find a fivers worth of plastic, it's crazy.

It's even a rip off by their own standards. Sure there are 5 in this box set, but a box of 3 regular jet bikes is a mere £25.

How does producing these characters cost more than these exactly?

Sy2pie wrote:
Who cares if they are characters or not. The point is they probably cost about £5 to produce. I would understand if they were assembled and painted, but when you spend £100 and then open the box to find a fivers worth of plastic, it's crazy.

It's even a rip off by their own standards. Sure there are 5 in this box set, but a box of 3 regular jet bikes is a mere £25.

How does producing these characters cost more than these exactly?

asides from potential man hours going into the actual 3d modeling, and extra work that goes into cutting up and properly making what could be a fairly complicated steel block probably not that much more than a normal unit.

and yet it ultimately doesn't matter, they decided to increase the price because they knew they wouldn't sell more than x amount of them so they are squeezing as much profit out of their investment as possible. that's just how characters work for them. and it seems that trend will continue as people still buy them.