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That's pretty much always the fate of a great combat hero in real life too,

killed by some random mook simply because there are a lot more of them them than there are heroes and when the luck runs out that's it

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
That's pretty much always the fate of a great combat hero in real life too,

killed by some random mook simply because there are a lot more of them them than there are heroes and when the luck runs out that's it

Nelson never jumped in a boat with a few guys to run in early and get to the backlines to disrupt the supply trains.

/Edit - Wellington

JWBS wrote:
Nelson never jumped in a boat with a few guys to run in early and get to the backlines to disrupt the supply trains.

I like how you picked example of one of the few NW leaders who died shot by French sniper on what could be a KT map. And yeah, he pretty much did 'jumped in a boat with a few guys to run in early' seeing the whole battle plan at Trafalgar was to rush into French fleet (with Victory at the front) and engage them in melee combat where Nelson hoped to prevail due to superior morale, instead of engaging in long range broadside duels where French superior education would likely won. Hell, it's hard to find more fitting battle in history to KT scenarios as Nelson choose enemy flagship as his target, pretty much turning the whole massive battle into contest of who will kill opposing admiral first in small localized brawl. You were saying?

Your sarcasm detecter needs an update Irbis.

 Irbis wrote:

 Geifer wrote:

Even before he rose to lead a brotherhood of the Deathwatch, Acastian of the Ultramarines was known for his calculating demeanour. It is said that he can calculate the number of warriors needed for a victory with but a quick glance at the battlefield. With the resources of an entire Watch Fortress at his disposal, he has waged war in the Vigilus System, personally leading 8 missions to victory, most recently crossing swords with the Drukhari.

GW clearly wants this character to be an actual Watch Master. You know, chapter master equivalent, highest rank a Marine can achieve.

GW doesn't do counts as. They're dead serious about the leader of a chapter, massive army or even a star empire to lead a squad of half a dozen regular joes on raids and the like.

Eh, DW is kinda bad example. Sure, a lot of Watch Masters command Chapter-like army. A lot more, though, command some outpost that is lucky to have 50 marines in total, and, if they lack proper officers, might well do lead missions themselves. Even DW captains don't command 100 line SM + supporting personnel, but anywhere from 20 to 50 marines, so if his "company" splits, he might well be left in command of Kill Team sized force...

Perhaps you would have preferred the Necron Overlord instead? Anyway, my point wasn't that there is no room for top level characters, narrative-wise, but that GW thinks there is, no matter how big or important the guy is.

I don't have a problem with it myself, considering I like character focus in my narrative.

Whether it's good for the game is another question and not something I want to get into. Though Herohammer is a thing and has always come with its own problems, so the issue might exist in Kill Team as well.

Are any of the missions asymmetrical? An assassination mission sounds like the most Kill team thing you could do. It is called Kill team afterall.

Yeah, there is a mission where a single commander has to fight a 100 point kill team by himself, and there is also a mission where a Commander + kill team has to fight a 200 point kill team without a commander.

So if you're playing with commanders, you probably always want to have a commander that is less than a 100 points included in your roster in case you roll up missions like that.

Those sound fun. I like the one where they've been caught away form their bodyguard, probably on the bog or something.

Those sound pretty much like the orginal kill team from 4th edition, where one player played the kill team and the other played a boss & mooks, which is what I was expecting from the commanders expansion.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
I would like to see it get bigger personally. I would love to see 3 squads and an hq as a standard game.

....

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

I have no interest in small games of 40k. I’m not playing 500pts, it’s more like 5000 pts. Hence KT.

Uh... not sure how to break this to you, but it seems that you absolutely do have an interest in small games of 40k. Because that's what 3 squads and a HQ is.

 Haighus wrote:
Those sound fun. I like the one where they've been caught away form their bodyguard, probably on the bog or something.

There's a battle report on youtube over that mission by one of the guys that got a preview copy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZmzj9OIY04

I guess the mayor problem with that mission is that once you get stuck in melee, it's hard to get out. So it is probably better for the commanders that are good in melee like that Tyranid Prime, over say a Tempestor Prime.

 Haighus wrote:
Those sound fun. I like the one where they've been caught away form their bodyguard, probably on the bog or something.

Enemy At The Gates.

Never take a shower when Vasily Zaytsev is around!

 Irbis wrote:

JWBS wrote:
Nelson never jumped in a boat with a few guys to run in early and get to the backlines to disrupt the supply trains.

I like how you picked example of one of the few NW leaders who died shot by French sniper on what could be a KT map. And yeah, he pretty much did 'jumped in a boat with a few guys to run in early' seeing the whole battle plan at Trafalgar was to rush into French fleet (with Victory at the front) and engage them in melee combat where Nelson hoped to prevail due to superior morale, instead of engaging in long range broadside duels where French superior education would likely won. Hell, it's hard to find more fitting battle in history to KT scenarios as Nelson choose enemy flagship as his target, pretty much turning the whole massive battle into contest of who will kill opposing admiral first in small localized brawl. You were saying?

Did you not read the edit? Where I realised I had mistaken Nelson for Wellington? I edited the post 12 hours before you replied. I probably should have put it in bold. Sorry about that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Redemption wrote:
Your sarcasm detecter needs an update Irbis.

Wasn't sarcasm mate I just got my military heroes mixed up. For about half a minute. Ibris chose to ignore that, I assume for comedy effect.

I hope Roboute Guilliman, Magnus and Mortarion are in the next Commanders expansion. After all if Watch Masters are on these covert ops; why not Primarchs.*



* this would actually suit Alpharius to be fair

 Legiocustodes wrote:
I hope Roboute Guilliman, Magnus and Mortarion are in the next Commanders expansion. After all if Watch Masters are on these covert ops; why not Primarchs.*



* this would actually suit Alpharius to be fair

To be fair, Magnus can probably also make himself appear to be some standard Sorceror or something if he wanted to sneak around. I think his ego is too big for that, but it's possible...

While we're being silly:

Kill Zone: Plastic Thunderhawk

Uh... not sure how to break this to you, but it seems that you absolutely do have an interest in small games of 40k. Because that's what 3 squads and a HQ is.

40K and Kill Team are completely different games, regardless of size.

I find 8th edition to be oversimplified.

I enjoy some of the finer points of KT more.

Okay, that makes more sense put that way. I don't think it'll happen "officially" because I'm sure GW would like people to "transition up" to "real" 40k, but I'm sure you could informally do 3 squads and a HQ right now with a friend - at least in terms on numbers. Though the whole "squads" thing is obviously an issue from the start in a skirmish game without coherency.

Still, that's what? Simply just agreeing to a 400-450-500-pt game of KT? You could do that right now. (and add in the jet/bikers and thunderwolves and jump troops and skyboarders when their rules get released later)

I'll see your Soviet sniper and raise you a Finn! Simo Häyhä.

alphaecho wrote:

 Haighus wrote:
Those sound fun. I like the one where they've been caught away form their bodyguard, probably on the bog or something.

Enemy At The Gates.

Never take a shower when Vasily Zaytsev is around!

While I have my own problems with KT: commanders similar to what has been previously mentioned, here's a fun bit of color regarding mid-ranking officers and SpecOps. "Mad" Jack Churchill

 lord_blackfang wrote:
While we're being silly:

Kill Zone: Plastic Thunderhawk

You joke, but...

 lord_blackfang wrote:
While we're being silly:

Kill Zone: Plastic Thunderhawk

A crashed thunderhawk would be a better kill zone that the zone of martyrs one.

RE: Crazy KT boards, found this one on reddit that, while not as epic as crashed t-hawks, caught my eye amidst all the usual same ruins + containers boards:



More here >> https://imgur.com/a/p9RQbyZ

- Salvage

I've been meaning to dig out my 2nd edition plastic boxed set marines and make statues out of them.

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
I've been meaning to dig out my 2nd edition plastic boxed set marines and make statues out of them.

I think you should take them off their bases if they're already built.

Yep, definitely lose the bases - and do some of that sweet oxide aging.

 Legiocustodes wrote:
I hope Roboute Guilliman, Magnus and Mortarion are in the next Commanders expansion. After all if Watch Masters are on these covert ops; why not Primarchs.*

This criticism makes no sense.

Watch Commanders, of the Deathwatch, y'know, the group that specifically organises itself into Kill Teams, the very thing the game is named after, who are all based around small covert operations. Why wouldn't they be involved?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Legiocustodes wrote:
I hope Roboute Guilliman, Magnus and Mortarion are in the next Commanders expansion. After all if Watch Masters are on these covert ops; why not Primarchs.*

This criticism makes no sense.

Watch Commanders, of the Deathwatch, y'know, the group that specifically organises itself into Kill Teams, the very thing the game is named after, who are all based around small covert operations. Why wouldn't they be involved?

22 SAS is commanded by a Lieutenant Colonel who has undertaken the same selection process as his SF Troopers, he will also have undertaken officers week and have served previous tours within the Regiment as a Captain or a Major. However he will not deploy on missions with individual sections or fire teams as he is busy commanding the regiment, which is what senior officers do y’know ... even in highly specialist formations.

Now if a really large operation was undertaken it might require the deployment of say the Officer Commanding of a Sabre Squadron (a Major) to deploy in order to command and orchestrate the activity of multiple troops, but still not the Regiment’s Colonel.

Transposing that forward to 40k Watch Commanders are essentially the souped up, genetically enhanced equivalent. Now I know nobody likes to think of any sort of realism or logistical support behind 40k but the Deathwatch are a Military Organisation who were originally answerable to the High Lords (Beast arises novels) but are now most likely answerable to the newly returned Guilliman. I’m not sure these Individuals would be happy when they contacted a Watch Fortress to ask Watch Master X help them coordinate a strategic response to a massive Xenos incursion to find out he’s on planet Y crawling through Grox gak with a five man Kill Team trying to stop eight Eldar from leaving the board. It’s not his role and does not fit with tasks comensutate to his rank, responsibilities or position. He may want to do these missions, because all soldiers still want to do the fun stuff, but part of being a disciplined operator is realising that what you want and what duty demands are two quite different things. His job is to lead a Watch Fortress and develop strategy and lead his forces... sometimes directly but only in larger battles. He should be able to implicitly trust his Watch Captains and Watch Sergeants to undertake their missions and achieve their objectives without the need for him to micro-manage their operational activities... afterall they are all still veteran space marines. Killing 8 Eldar should be an achieavable goal!

 Legiocustodes wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Legiocustodes wrote:
I hope Roboute Guilliman, Magnus and Mortarion are in the next Commanders expansion. After all if Watch Masters are on these covert ops; why not Primarchs.*

This criticism makes no sense.

Watch Commanders, of the Deathwatch, y'know, the group that specifically organises itself into Kill Teams, the very thing the game is named after, who are all based around small covert operations. Why wouldn't they be involved?

22 SAS is commanded by a Lieutenant Colonel who has undertaken the same selection process as his SF Troopers, he will also have undertaken officers week and have served previous tours within the Regiment as a Captain or a Major. However he will not deploy on missions with individual sections or fire teams as he is busy commanding the regiment, which is what senior officers do y’know ... even in highly specialist formations.

Now if a really large operation was undertaken it might require the deployment of say the Officer Commanding of a Sabre Squadron (a Major) to deploy in order to command and orchestrate the activity of multiple troops, but still not the Regiment’s Colonel.

Transposing that forward to 40k Watch Commanders are essentially the souped up, genetically enhanced equivalent. Now I know nobody likes to think of any sort of realism or logistical support behind 40k but the Deathwatch are a Military Organisation who were originally answerable to the High Lords (Beast arises novels) but are now most likely answerable to the newly returned Guilliman. I’m not sure these Individuals would be happy when they contacted a Watch Fortress to ask Watch Master X help them coordinate a strategic response to a massive Xenos incursion to find out he’s on planet Y crawling through Grox gak with a five man Kill Team trying to stop eight Eldar from leaving the board. It’s not his role and does not fit with tasks comensutate to his rank, responsibilities or position. He may want to do these missions, because all soldiers still want to do the fun stuff, but part of being a disciplined operator is realising that what you want and what duty demands are two quite different things. His job is to lead a Watch Fortress and develop strategy and lead his forces... sometimes directly but only in larger battles. He should be able to implicitly trust his Watch Captains and Watch Sergeants to undertake their missions and achieve their objectives without the need for him to micro-manage their operational activities... afterall they are all still veteran space marines. Killing 8 Eldar should be an achieavable goal!

If you ignore this type of logic you can have Herohammer in 40K though. I actually quite liked WFB Herohammer, it seemed appropriate and epic. Dragons & stuff. I don't like the look of it in KT tbh.

 Legiocustodes wrote:
22 SAS is commanded by a Lieutenant Colonel who has undertaken the same selection process as his SF Troopers, he will also have undertaken officers week and have served previous tours within the Regiment as a Captain or a Major. However he will not deploy on missions with individual sections or fire teams as he is busy commanding the regiment, which is what senior officers do y’know ... even in highly specialist formations.

Said SAS guy isn't a super-human wearing tank armour.

Your comparison is meaningless. All Marines fight.

 Legiocustodes wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Legiocustodes wrote:
I hope Roboute Guilliman, Magnus and Mortarion are in the next Commanders expansion. After all if Watch Masters are on these covert ops; why not Primarchs.*

This criticism makes no sense.

Watch Commanders, of the Deathwatch, y'know, the group that specifically organises itself into Kill Teams, the very thing the game is named after, who are all based around small covert operations. Why wouldn't they be involved?

22 SAS is commanded by a Lieutenant Colonel who has undertaken the same selection process as his SF Troopers, he will also have undertaken officers week and have served previous tours within the Regiment as a Captain or a Major. However he will not deploy on missions with individual sections or fire teams as he is busy commanding the regiment, which is what senior officers do y’know ... even in highly specialist formations.

Now if a really large operation was undertaken it might require the deployment of say the Officer Commanding of a Sabre Squadron (a Major) to deploy in order to command and orchestrate the activity of multiple troops, but still not the Regiment’s Colonel.

Transposing that forward to 40k Watch Commanders are essentially the souped up, genetically enhanced equivalent. Now I know nobody likes to think of any sort of realism or logistical support behind 40k but the Deathwatch are a Military Organisation who were originally answerable to the High Lords (Beast arises novels) but are now most likely answerable to the newly returned Guilliman. I’m not sure these Individuals would be happy when they contacted a Watch Fortress to ask Watch Master X help them coordinate a strategic response to a massive Xenos incursion to find out he’s on planet Y crawling through Grox gak with a five man Kill Team trying to stop eight Eldar from leaving the board. It’s not his role and does not fit with tasks comensutate to his rank, responsibilities or position. He may want to do these missions, because all soldiers still want to do the fun stuff, but part of being a disciplined operator is realising that what you want and what duty demands are two quite different things. His job is to lead a Watch Fortress and develop strategy and lead his forces... sometimes directly but only in larger battles. He should be able to implicitly trust his Watch Captains and Watch Sergeants to undertake their missions and achieve their objectives without the need for him to micro-manage their operational activities... afterall they are all still veteran space marines. Killing 8 Eldar should be an achieavable goal!

Still, some like to lead from the front.
Erwin Rommel sends his regards. Rommel used to lead his security detachment like a kill team. Tip on the spear vanguard kind of crazy.