Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Necromunda doesn't have rules for every race/faction in 40K though, does it?

 Mysterio wrote:
Necromunda doesn't have rules for every race/faction in 40K though, does it?

That’s a fair point, but isn’t incentive enough to get me excited.

Did no one else like the Kill team vs Goon squads of 1st and 2nd versions of Kill team?

Always felt like that was a better narrative than elite teams constantly encountering elite teams (though Kill team vs Kill team has it's place). Elite kill team vs Basic mooks and a Nemesis with their Death Squad seems like something you'd be able to easily add in as a variant (and a good way of dealing with mismatched XP teams).

I think a dread vs a squad woukd be badass. esp if they do something for saves or str/toughness. I'm kinda looking forward to this.

fresus wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

fresus wrote:
I think even small vehicles are a bad thing.
They're very hard to kill with standard infantry weapons. And in a KT format, you can't protect your special/heavy weapons, since each guy is its own unit. The player with a vehicle can usually just focus down on the 1 or 2 opposing models that can really put a hurt on the vehicle, and then enjoy a model with insane durability.
Unless of course the rules are different enough that everything I just said doesn't apply (like being able to hit/kill the vehicle's pilot, or just an overall decreased durability).

I mean, assuming this new version will be related to the 8th rules, is that kind of thing even an issue any more? So long as they keep anything heftier than a Dreadnought out of things a bit of focus fire should be able to handle vehicles now everything can hurt everything else, it's not like Ye Olden Tymes when losing your dedicated AT weapons meant you were unable to harm vehicles at all.

The lightest vehicles are still T5/W6/4+ (Eldar skimmers, sentinels), which require 36 S4 AP0 hits to take down. That's 27 marines in rapid fire range.
A Dread is twice as hard to put down with S4/AP0 weapons, and four times as hard with S3. So that's 144 BS4+ lasguns in RF range to take it down.
I also hope we'll see some small vehicles, but I still think the rules need to be drastically different for it to work.

Ok but what about krak grenades ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Process wrote:

 Crimson wrote:


A big part why I can't get into Shadespire is that there is no customisation. I don't want to play these predetermined characters who someone else envisioned, I want to create my own heroes!

Same for me (also i dont like the sigmar setting), i want to construct my own characters, have already started on some Whitescars- http://picbear.club/media/1720672020235312929_6000229864

Also, in terms of tournament play i dont like the idea of it just being the same preset characters against each other for example in marine vs marine games- id much rather go with the same way the LOTR events work; you bring one good army and one evil army, keep it narrative. So you could bring one imperium force and one chaos/xenos force and play an even amount of games with each through the day.

Wow it is really cool

Dandelion wrote:

 kadeton wrote:
Why would having a single model as your entire Kill Team be a problem, per se? If the rules make such a contest fun for both players, then I see nothing wrong with it.

That's a huge "if".

I mean... it is, and it isn't. It's a huge "if" in the sense that GW has a poor track record in writing balanced rules, but it's also the "if" that is the fundamental challenge of designing the entire game. Can GW make Kill Team fun? If so, then I see no reason why they can't make it fun with light vehicles included.

Dandelion wrote:
Not every team has the same access to special/heavy weapons as Marines. Tau strike teams for example have 0 anti-tank. Pathfinder weapons are more for heavy infantry. Stealthsuits would likely be the smallest platform with an anti-tank gun. So right off the bat, it's not balanced.

And you're assuming that you can only take a Tau Strike Team with no anti-tank weapons because...?

Dandelion wrote:
I can't imagine a rule set that would make specialists sniping difficult. If a player knows that only 2 fighters can kill his dreadnought then he'll prioritize them. Once they're gone, the dreadnought is essentially unstoppable. And remember, the dreadnought is ALSO supported by an entire kill team.

I can imagine several variations of rules that would make sniping very difficult. Your failure of imagination is not my problem.

Also, the dreadnought is not "essentially unstoppable" - as shown, they can be brought down just by bolter fire, let alone grenades and close combat attacks. If a dreadnought is "unstoppable" under those circumstances, then a squad of 10 Marines is also "unstoppable".

What do you mean when you say the dreadnought is also supported by an entire Kill Team? In the scenario we're discussing, the dreadnought is (more or less) the entire Kill Team just by itself.

My main hope is that I can convince some of my friends to go in on this with me.

One of the major selling points of past iterations of Kill Team was to be able to make your squad out of one box of guys. One box of Tac Marines or Chaos Marines, something that's not going to break the bank, that you can build with some extra flair on each model and paint up relatively quickly. I don't care whether I can use the same squad legally in a game of 40k, and I hope GW keeps that in mind. I'd rather have a varied squad of models with different weapons and load-outs and have that somehow balanced against others.

In a smaller game, especially focusing around specific troop units, you'd think it'd be easier to balance. In the trailer, GW shows off basic troop units for just about every faction, implying that the focus would be on those troop units. A squad of Rubric Marines versus a squad of Skitarii Vanguard. Necrom Warriors versus Dark Eldar Wyches.

The focus shouldn't be on cheesing the game. More than ever, my hope is that this is an opportunity to introduce people to 40k with a friendly game you can pick-up and put down quickly, with replayability and enough rules and options that you can spend a little extra time customizing your squad and naming each member.

A little extra emphasis on story wouldn't be bad either. Imagine a little extra roleplaying in a game of kill team, creating nemesis between your friends as you compete to kill each other and capture objectives. Not just crunching numbers and spamming something, or taking something so big that your opponent can't kill it.

If you take a dreadnought and snipe out your opponent's one anti-tank weapon, what fun is that? Game over. Congrats, you won, but you don't win anything. Instead, you lose out on a fun game.

 kadeton wrote:

What do you mean when you say the dreadnought is also supported by an entire Kill Team? In the scenario we're discussing, the dreadnought is (more or less) the entire Kill Team just by itself.

Evidently, we are not discussing the same scenario. This Kill Team will in no way shape or form be like previous Kill Team games. It is basically Shadow War with a broader scope and fresher rules.
- You are NOT going to take 200 pts of whatever codex and use regular 40k rules.
- You will instead collect a team for a Necromunda-like campaign, with a currency, team limits and fighter progression. Rules for each team will be in the main book, like Shadow War.

If one could hire a dreadnought, then you would supplement your team with it, NOT use it as your kill team. Hence why it would be a bad idea.

Dandelion wrote:
- You will instead collect a team for a Necromunda-like campaign, with a currency, team limits and fighter progression.

The extent to which your selection of models will allow for flexibility beyond those expectations remains to be seen, I think. We already know that you'll be able to take Thunderwolf Cavalry, for example. Will we see bikes? Light vehicles? Transports? Nobody knows. Previous versions of Kill Team have included those things, so it's not unreasonable to imagine they might make it into this version in some form.

If they choose not to allow dreadnoughts or other vehicles in the game, I won't lose any sleep over it. My objection is to the idea that those elements cannot work in the game, not whether or not they will actually be included.

Tastyfish wrote:
Did no one else like the Kill team vs Goon squads of 1st and 2nd versions of Kill team?

Always felt like that was a better narrative than elite teams constantly encountering elite teams (though Kill team vs Kill team has it's place). Elite kill team vs Basic mooks and a Nemesis with their Death Squad seems like something you'd be able to easily add in as a variant (and a good way of dealing with mismatched XP teams).

It's a fun game variant, but only really fun for the kill team player, as the goon squad player would go through the motions until it was his turn to play as the team.

Around here nobody wanted to play as the goons.

Dandelion wrote:

Evidently, we are not discussing the same scenario. This Kill Team will in no way shape or form be like previous Kill Team games. It is basically Shadow War with a broader scope and fresher rules.
- You are NOT going to take 200 pts of whatever codex and use regular 40k rules.
- You will instead collect a team for a Necromunda-like campaign, with a currency, team limits and fighter progression. Rules for each team will be in the main book, like Shadow War.

If one could hire a dreadnought, then you would supplement your team with it, NOT use it as your kill team. Hence why it would be a bad idea.

While they've said this new Kill Team will have its own ruleset (rather than being an expansion for 40k like the last versions), we have been told nothing to let us think it'll be like Shadow War. Conversely, from the screenshots we've seen, we know that the idea of specialists has been carried over from previous versions of Kill Team. At this point, speculating over how "unkillable" dreadnoughts or hive tyrants or whatever will be is meaningless.


Personally, I hope that any vehicles allowed are no bigger than light recce vehicles - Sentinels, Pirahnas, Vypers, Attack Bikes, that sort of thing. Anything bigger should be part of a special scenario.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Personally, I hope that any vehicles allowed are no bigger than light recce vehicles - Sentinels, Pirahnas, Vypers, Attack Bikes, that sort of thing. Anything bigger should be part of a special scenario.

In 40k terms (with the full awareness that we're talking about a new ruleset), how would you decide whether a particular vehicle (or monster) was a "light recce vehicle"-equivalent or something bigger?

I'm not having a go, I'm genuinely curious about how people draw the line on what they feel is acceptable. Would it be as simple as "Nothing with more than 6 Wds, and no transport capacity", or more complicated than that?

meatybtz wrote:
In this new one, success or failure is less about the core rules set and more about how good the lists are. One of the things that made people have so much fun with Mordheim were the gang lists. You could bring any particular gang and have a good match up (not withstanding what happens later when gangs level up and the you can crush all enemies if you get good enough).

The rules have to be solid enough to support "good" or "bad" lists.

As you point out with Mordheim, a solid set of rules combined with good lists makes for a good game. If they don't set up the right framework, all the lists will be for nought.

While there's no guarantee, GW has had a better track record recently (Shadespire, Necromunda) of caring about the rules framework.

I find criteria like that pointless - just specify the units directly. I don't follow all the factions, so I may miss something, but:

Space Marines: Attack Bike, Thunderwolf cavalry, possibly Land Speeers (base variant only) and Land Speeder Storm (normally I'd be against including transports, but this fits the theme, I think)
Imperial Guard: Scout Sentinels, Tauros Assault Vehicles, possibly Centaur Artillery Tractors
Adeptus Mechanicus - Sydonian Dragoon, possibly the Ironstrider Ballistarius.
Necrons - Tomb Blades
Orks - Wartrakks, possibly Warbuggies and Deffkoptas
Eldar - Vypers, War Walkers, Harlequin Starweavers, Dark Eldar Venoms
Tau - Piranhas, standard and stealth battlesuits, Tetras
Tyranids - Zoanthrope, Venomthrope, Lictor, perhaps a Ravenor.

I'm not including armoured sentinels, the more heavily armed land speeders or the Wasp warwalker and the like because those look more like assault units to be fielded in battle, rather than something sent to roam ahead of the lines.

Yep scout sentinels and stuff like that would be cool but I hope we won't be seeing riptide kill teams!

My wish is that they include the 'guards guards' mechanics from Necromundia so that we can do stealthy missions as well as the standard clash of the vanguards.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
I find criteria like that pointless - just specify the units directly.

Fair enough. I'd prefer more structure than just picking units, as that tends to leave people whinging about why the thing they wanted wasn't picked when some other thing that's roughly equivalent was, but it sounds like you're basing your decision on theme rather than "power", which I can get behind.

The way I'm looking at it, is this is basically a meeting engagement between two opposing recce or commando teams. You wouldn't get things like Dreadnoughts turning up in this sort of scenario because they're too big and loud and slow (if the mission needed a dreadnought's firepower, then send in a Scout squad with a teleport homer, and beam the big guy in ), but a squadron of war walkers or a land speeder is the sort of thing that would get sent out to patrol the wider area, and would potentially run into enemy groups doing the same thing.

Of course, there's scope for sending a commando team in to blow up the enemy dreadnought/helbrute/carnifex/morkanaut/Knight/whatever, but that's best served by a special scenario (which the previous Kill Team included; I suspect the new one might have something similar).

A lot of it depends on the rules. If they're something like Necromunda Underhive (ie pretty similar to 8th edition 40k, but with some additions and changes), then you could probably write stats for the big thing of your choice easily, using the stats for units and weapons provided to extrapolate what any new gear might do.

The rules are supposed to be different than normal 40K, so they'll probably have to rewrite the datasheets of the units they want to include.
They could actually change some units drastically when doing so. For instance, a Starweaver or a Venom could be considered to be a bigger jetbike: at the end of the day, it's still 3 dudes on a anti-grav platform, and you could say you just need to kill the dudes on top instead of destroying the chassis, just like for a normal jetbike. In that case, you can apply the standard bike profiles where you gain +1T and you have 1W per dude +1, and a 4+ save for Eldar. So a Venom would be T4 4W 4+save. You could easily do something similar for Land speeders, piranha and other small open-topped vehicles.
But I would still prefer if the big wychs models were reavers and helions (with bloodbrides as elites and syrens as HQs), instead of having something as big as a venom.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

While they've said this new Kill Team will have its own ruleset (rather than being an expansion for 40k like the last versions), we have been told nothing to let us think it'll be like Shadow War. Conversely, from the screenshots we've seen, we know that the idea of specialists has been carried over from previous versions of Kill Team. At this point, speculating over how "unkillable" dreadnoughts or hive tyrants or whatever will be is meaningless.


Personally, I hope that any vehicles allowed are no bigger than light recce vehicles - Sentinels, Pirahnas, Vypers, Attack Bikes, that sort of thing. Anything bigger should be part of a special scenario.

My main point was that this game will have its own rule set with recruitment, progression, special missions and an overall campaign. Hence like Shadow War or Necromunda. Many people seemed to have this notion that it would be small scale 40k with some additional rules. (eg take 200 pts from your codex with these restrictions...)

Regardless of how the rules turn out, having a single large model (in this case a vehicle) acting as part of the Kill Team would be a bad idea IMO. It dampens a lot of tactics and can present a hard counter to certain teams. Imagine you lost your heavy weapons guy, or he's recovering and then you have to fight a team with a vehicle. Not fun.

Dandelion wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

While they've said this new Kill Team will have its own ruleset (rather than being an expansion for 40k like the last versions), we have been told nothing to let us think it'll be like Shadow War. Conversely, from the screenshots we've seen, we know that the idea of specialists has been carried over from previous versions of Kill Team. At this point, speculating over how "unkillable" dreadnoughts or hive tyrants or whatever will be is meaningless.


Personally, I hope that any vehicles allowed are no bigger than light recce vehicles - Sentinels, Pirahnas, Vypers, Attack Bikes, that sort of thing. Anything bigger should be part of a special scenario.

My main point was that this game will have its own rule set with recruitment, progression, special missions and an overall campaign. Hence like Shadow War or Necromunda. Many people seemed to have this notion that it would be small scale 40k with some additional rules. (eg take 200 pts from your codex with these restrictions...)

Regardless of how the rules turn out, having a single large model (in this case a vehicle) acting as part of the Kill Team would be a bad idea IMO. It dampens a lot of tactics and can present a hard counter to certain teams. Imagine you lost your heavy weapons guy, or he's recovering and then you have to fight a team with a vehicle. Not fun.

I hope it is like this. I want necro/sw progression and having missions where the goal is to disable/destroy vehicles, etc.

I think the progression might be more like Age of Sigmar's Path to Glory than Necromunda, but I'll wait and see.

You mean AoS Skirmish? Path to Glory is a large scale skirmish with almost all of the unit availaable like Greater Demon and Boss unit.

KT to 40k will be more like Shadespire to AoS

 kodos wrote:
KT to 40k will be more like Shadespire to AoS

In what sense? Shadespire is a board game with no progression or customisation at all.

 kodos wrote:
KT to 40k will be more like Shadespire to AoS

Shadespire is a card game with miniature, the team have fixed fighter and no customization, no campaign progression. It had nothing in common with Kill team.

A lot of misinformed people think Shadespire is AoS Mordheim and that's completely wrong.

KT to 40k will be more like Shadespire to AoS

Dude, Shadespire is played with 3-6 miniatures. You can't choose wich unit you use. action uses cards and special dice. Your warband stay the same game after game.

This isn't even close to Kill Team. Or BFG.

AoS skirmish and KT are more alike.

So point me the source that tells you how new KT will look like

How do you know that it will be not sharedpire but mini AoS fpr the only info we have is that there are upgrades in campaign mode and different dice


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chopstick wrote:

A lot of misinformed people think Shadespire is AoS Mordheim and that's completely wrong.

Shadespire is the official tournament game for Fantasy and KT will be the official tournament game for 40k

 kodos wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chopstick wrote:

A lot of misinformed people think Shadespire is AoS Mordheim and that's completely wrong.

Shadespire is the official tournament game for Fantasy and KT will be the official tournament game for 40k

That do not mean the gameplay will be the same.

Again, you are seriously misinformed. Try watching a video explain how Shadespire is played.

Point me to a source that says KT will be like Shadespire, and not like every other previous version of KT.

 kodos wrote:
So point me the source that tells you how new KT will look like

How do you know that it will be not sharedpire but mini AoS fpr the only info we have is that there are upgrades in campaign mode and different dice

You just said it yourself: Shadespire has no continuity between games whatsoever. None. Not even as a tournament option. You pick your team and build your deck and that’s it.
Just by having campaign options, KT is already very different from Shadespire.
Additionally, KT is not played on hexes or any other grid; as we can see from the intro video, it is a free movement game much like other skirmish wargames. Then there’s the terrain (somewhere between abstracted to vanishing and non-existent in Shadespire) implying a line of sight mechanic based on the minis rather than the board, and the use of regular numeric d6 and d10 dice rather than custom symbols. Oh and the game apparently uses regular 40k minis rather than having official custom sets for each team, which, aside from being yet another obvious difference, implies thar units will have options (at least all the ones in the unit box) because the last thing GW needs is Mom complaining that little Timmy can’t play his new game because he built the models wrong.
And that’s just the differences I can come up with in 30 seconds, having watched the video twice. I’m sure someone will have spotted others.