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 Ideasweasel wrote:

Spoiler:

Stygies patrol
1x enginseer
3x vanguard (5 man squad)
3x termite drill

Taranis superheavy
2x crusaders
1x crusader with Ironstorm missile pod (WL)

Do you think this could work?

I'm interested to hear how this works out. I'm leery of your lack of melee options. It'll be hard to actually shift enemies off objectives, but maybe the Crusader's feet are enough.

I'm also not convinced that a few 5 man squads actually work as ObSec, so that's what I'm most interested to hear about. It seems like if the opponent is already contesting the objective, it's not much more work to kill 5 bodies. If some backfielder comes by and assaults the Vanguard to death, they can sit in close combat with the Drill for the rest of the game and control the objective despite it.

I've run this list in a couple simulated games:It plays exactly how it looks: a big blob of AdMech following the Knights. The list is surprisingly fast though, the Vanguard move ~12" and the slowest units are the Dunecrawlers. Regarding scoring objectives, I led with the Knights and Ruststalkers to open space, then brought the Vanguard on behind them. It was pretty hard for the opponent to retake objectives with so much stuff in the way, since the Vanguard outscored any token attempts to contest. This was extremely valuable when I played against the orks; they just couldn't get enough boyz in to contest.

Opinion does seem to be mixed on how we are going to perform as a faction

With tournaments out of action for a while it’s also tricky to see any real results other than anecdotal garage game results

Essentially theres four factors

Meta - lots of people expect vehicles because they got better so people may pack AP initially but vehicles arn't that great at objectives and if people are packing AP/Dam then infantry lists might be stronger and as people remove AP/dam for more shots knights get stronger. In a general a high AP vehicle meta knights will do worse and an infantry a meta will favour them. However gets time and data to know a meta both generally and locally.

Knights themselves - lost fewer points than a lot of other factions and more CP in mono both big buffs and enginewar provided minor buffs - all putting knights in a beter position than 8th but with the caveat that mono knights position in 8th was team tournament skew list only so better doesn't mean good.

Missions - knights are not good at objective holding -scoreing primary but are good at clearing objectives - denying your opponent by directing firepower to select parts of your opponents army. In secondarys objective and board holding secondarys are tough for knights but acheivable if you play melee knight lists but probably not while objective sitting. while you give away one secondary you can probably deny the others quite well - Either way it will likely mean both players are low scoreing but low scoreing doesnt matter its the difference and thats less ear

Going first. Enemys can now counter position knights more easily now its not whole army deployment - and in 8th I found knight heavy lists would mostly win when they went first but often died hard when they went second - in not sure that changes. What might change is that with fewer points slightly less armies may be able to table a knight T1

Tau riptides will do fine for deleting knights, Admech is another army that can shoot a knight off the board with ease, guard too probably. Although got a bit trickier without hammer of sunderance.


Agree though that we won’t really know till things shake out of and when tournaments come back to life

Admech are always a minority of players atleast in the uk meta and even then only mars castle which isnt great for missions. non castle took a lot of hits like the loss of dragoon

I’m fairly certain that Necrons will also have no trouble downing a knight in one turn.

I’m not sure how I feel about that given I play both sides

 IHateNids wrote:
I’m fairly certain that Necrons will also have no trouble downing a knight in one turn.

I’m not sure how I feel about that given I play both sides

Necrons are going to be in a wierd place In a months time I would guess they will either be marines 2.0 and destroying the game against everyone else or actually just finally up to competitive but will still have the Marines are OP issue every other faction has to deal with.

I just hope GW don't do you guys dirty like 8th.

On the loosing a knight a turn issue the other advantage is with reserves, lets be honest my 8th knights list maxed at 12 CP with non during the game and I rarely ran out.
In 9th its 12cp plus 5 turns of have a CP. Even if its 3CP to reserve a Knight that's not the worst option especially given most knight weapons can hit atleast half the board as long as you can deploy for Line of sight.

Necrons used to really struggle. You quickly take out DDA and they crumble. With all the anti tank being D6 shenanigans it almost always went south.

Possibly one of my preferred matchups in 8th

Will see how the new units change things, might be nice to actually respect the army now

I've heard a lot of people talking about spending CP to take some AdMech along with their Knights, but is it worth it to bring along some Guard instead for holding objectives and stuff? AdMech does seem better in most situations especially now that Guardsmen are 5 ppm, but Guard have some surprising mobility with Move! Move! Move! and/or cheap transports. I own some Guard stuff, including a couple of HWTs with Mortars (went all-in on those before they got nerfed ) and a Leman Russ, but I'm not sure if any of that works well alongside Knights anymore.

One of the reasons many players choose Admech as their preferred allies is Knight of the Cog and the Mars canticle (also shroudspalm) can really benefit your knights. And occasionally a repair from a nearby tech-priest. If you’re going to bring some cheap allied troops to hold objectives and perform actions, why not go for the codex that can grant some benefit to the knights themselves?

I’m sure Guard allies are fine, but you don’t get the same synergies.

I've got more anecdotes from another simulated battle. On reflection from the last games, I felt like the Dominus' Artisan trait wasn't doing that much and I felt like I was missing out on Warglaive stratagem value without a third. I decided to trim the fat and tested this list against my ork opponent:
The third Warglaive made a world of difference. I used Pack Hunters liberally and it was a huge boost, despite the small gamble of paying before you need it. I tried to charge from 7 or 8". If it re-rolls one charge, that's slightly better than a command re-roll (since ~40% of the time you'll have already used up the command re-roll on the first Warglaive). I crunched the numbers on each charge in my game, and ~70% of the time Pack Hunters re-rolls at least one charge. Over the course of the game I made 10 charges, missed one of them after re-rolls, and payed for 1 command re-roll and 3 Pack Hunters. Only once was Pack Hunters wasted, and it never had to re-roll both charges. It's important to note that you don't have to charge the same target. This definitely wasn't as good in 8th since you wouldn't have had enough CP to throw around.

Despite paying for Pack Hunters and Pack Tactics, I still had enough CP to Rotate Ion Shields on the Warglaives sometimes. That made them really hard to finish off. They're small enough to use Obscuring terrain, so the really injured ones can hide. I think between the three they regenerated 12 wounds, and I even double repaired one with the Manipulus in a later round. This also had the knock-on effect of making my Preceptor survive a lot longer.

The other thing I noticed was that I never needed Hounds of War since the Warglaives were proactive. I'm torn between Noble Combatants, Slayers of Beasts, and Stormstriders as a replacement. That's something I'll just have to crunch numbers on.

Here's another funny idea I'm tempted to try: Landstrider on one of the Warglaives. You can nominate a Warglaive as a character with Knight Lance which makes it eligible to be your Warlord. Then, you pay 1 CP for Exalted Court on the Knight to make it a character for another Warlord trait and qualify it to take a Relic. Essentially, 1 CP for a Warlord trait on the Warglaive. It's probably the only trait worth taking on a Warglaive, and it might paint too big a target on him, but it would be a huge boost to their threat range.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I've heard a lot of people talking about spending CP to take some AdMech along with their Knights, but is it worth it to bring along some Guard instead for holding objectives and stuff? AdMech does seem better in most situations especially now that Guardsmen are 5 ppm, but Guard have some surprising mobility with Move! Move! Move! and/or cheap transports. I own some Guard stuff, including a couple of HWTs with Mortars (went all-in on those before they got nerfed ) and a Leman Russ, but I'm not sure if any of that works well alongside Knights anymore.

I own both and both have there merits it depends how many points your spending and what your trying to do mission wise.

I gotta say, AdMech doesn't have much special synergy with Knights compared to Guard. Yes, technically we can repair the Knights but that requires an HQ choice to be within 3" of one. We can share the canticle with one Knight, but the HQ needs to be within 6". These are really not gameplay defining effects, and won't even come up in most games.

I'm super well versed in Guard, but I think they could solve Knight's weaknesses way more efficiently than AdMech. You've got fast, exceptionally cheap troops. You also can bring either efficient artillery or T8 vehicles to help threat overload. Knights are inherently a skew army, so you have to lean into that with your allies.

Wait knight of the cog now requires you to be within 6” ? Really

I 100% agree. 12+2d6" moving obsec troops is wild and unbalances 9e quite a bit, and makes a great backbone for Knight allies. Then Basilisks to kill campers and non-LoS. I even think Hellhounds might be worth a look now as they really can't be ignored any more, given how their close-range threat has gone through the roof with their ability to shoot into combat and then explode.

 IHateNids wrote:
I’m fairly certain that Necrons will also have no trouble downing a knight in one turn.

I’m not sure how I feel about that given I play both sides

Oh? Have they received some buff I have missed? 3 DDA averages 11 wounds or so. Pretty hard to see where you get remaining 13 wounds efficiently. 3 tesserak arks will result in less and costs another 600 pts or so. Dunno how much pylon costs in 9th but even in 8th that one shots at 37.8% rate and generally takes nerfbat in 9th ed core rules and missions.

Dunno. Necrons have for me always struggled a bit with vehicles. 3 DDA and squadron of squishy destroyers take you only so far.

Which of these do you think is stronger.

Catachan Batallion

2x company commander (1 with kurovs)
10x guardsmen
10x guardsman
10x guardsman
10x guardsman
10x guardsman
10x guardsman
1x full payload manticore

1x Calidus assassin

Taranis Super heavy

2x Crusaders
1X Warden with fist


Or

Graia Patrol

5x skitarii
5x skitarii
6x skitarii

Taranis super heavy

3x crusaders
1x gallant

Definitelllly the first, as it can actually contest objectives, which is now the name of the 9e game.


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However I'd actualy look at custome regiment with that setup - troops always getting cover saves and extended rapid fire range seems to suit it better - you're not really going into catachan speciality (Harker & priest) so a big uptick in survivability of your little fleshy minions would help a lot.

Thanks for the feedback. Only thing is I was choosing catachan for the reliability of the manticore shots.

I used to love double full payload basilisks but hoping a manticore can be a good substitute


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Suppose I could pick gunnery experts and wilderness survival

That way I get the best of both?

Sure dude, sounds good. I guess I'd just want my trait to be affecting 60 models not one, but I 100% get where you're coming from, especially with full payload.

My thinking was that 18" may allow some more damaging anti-infantry plinking between objectives. With FRFSRF, 40 shots out to 18" sounds okayish (I think it's basically 1 dead intercessor with no rerolls.) But it's just a guess, definitely the kind of thing to tweak and play with!


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Or lean into catachan, bring Harker and a priest, and go punch those marines in the face

Yeah that might be an idea. Will have to see if I’d miss the thermal cannons on the knights. But freeing up a few points there could help squeeze it in

I used to love my double basilisks, wyvern etc. But not it’s really hard to squeeze what you want in

But at least every army is in the same boat there

 Ideasweasel wrote:
Wait knight of the cog now requires you to be within 6” ? Really

Sorry, it's still 12". I can never remember that one.

On the issue of Catachans, you should definitely go with melee Guard. I'm biased because the idea is badass, but you do also need to be able to put your scoring troops on objectives. Your opponent has a much harder time screening you out if you're willing to assault into him. You don't even necessarily have to be great in close combat since all you need is to dip a toe within 3" of the marker and stay there. I don't know if you need Harker, but I think a Priest or two wouldn't go amiss.

Recap of tonight’s game versus a very dreadnought heavy iron hands list (seriously almost all dreads lol)

About 65-50 final score

I lost on primaries. I played the 60 guard list mentioned above. I just found they got hosed off objectives and going second is really tough. The fact they have to live through a turn of return fire makes squishy T3 fragile to score

I had done ok shooting most of the enemies heavy hitters but once my 3rd knight fell it was rough.

I think next game I’m going to play a pure knights list with a Castellan. Just for a giggle. I’ll either lose early on or put a dent in the enemy hopefully to make things interesting

That is interesting, I'd've thought 60 bodies would be hard for Dreadnoughts clear. What was doing most of the damage? Like, how many bodies were you losing per turn?

tneva82 wrote:

 IHateNids wrote:
I’m fairly certain that Necrons will also have no trouble downing a knight in one turn.

I’m not sure how I feel about that given I play both sides

Oh? Have they received some buff I have missed? 3 DDA averages 11 wounds or so. Pretty hard to see where you get remaining 13 wounds efficiently. 3 tesserak arks will result in less and costs another 600 pts or so. Dunno how much pylon costs in 9th but even in 8th that one shots at 37.8% rate and generally takes nerfbat in 9th ed core rules and missions.

Dunno. Necrons have for me always struggled a bit with vehicles. 3 DDA and squadron of squishy destroyers take you only so far.

Basically, the new Overlord can buff the shooting of vehicles now, so DDA got more efficient. In addition, the vehicle USR to move & fire heavy means that the Stalker is also now a really good force multiplier, on top of the fact the flyers aren't troll pick fo rthe tri-bomb gimmick

Those buffs, coupled with the projected stats on the new shooty destroyers & the Cannon Walker mean that Necron threat to knights got dialled up from "Maybe 3 DDAs will bring it down if I've got hot dice" to "I'm pretty sure one's toast, two is very possible now"

That's not accounting for the FW Superheavies either, and GPs still nuke knights like it's going out of buisness.

So yeah, I am an excited Xeno, and a terrified Noble, becuase I know at least one of my local's FOTM asshats is picking up Necrons with Indomitus

Can't wait to be told how to play my army of 12 years "correctly"

@darkhound

We both picked the king of the hill style secondary (forgot the name) I picked the banners one, and then the kill vehicles one. Cant recall my opponents 3rd secondary but he picked titan kliller one cause why wouldn't he.

I just found that when I plonked guardsmen on an objective (even two squads at one point) he had enough volume of fire to kill them. The dreads each had over 20 shots with reroll shenanigans and he had moved into the centre of the board

The dreads were no slouch in melee and capable of bitch slapping my knights. it made the fight for the centre tricky. I needed my knights to contribute to holding the centre and whilst I tried I had to then strategically fallback as they where in danger of getting punched to death.

Going second really hurts. I am not a fan of the pregame format. the roll for who wins deployment seems pointless if you are playing a balanced tournament map. one positive is obscuring terrain didn't make too much of a difference though. I think maybe I over thought that one and its not as terrible for us as initially thought

I think for a future list im going with more firepower and something to be aggressive in the middle. Non LOS stuff like a manticore is fine but it feels less useful in not being on an objective. Just killing stuff alone isnt enough. So perhaps a tank commander or something melee based will be my next addition

Game isn't designed for symmetric maps. But the roll off after deployment certainly push toward 1st turn. Ca19 with asymmetric boards alpha strike and 1st turn was seriously reduced in impact.

The game might not be designed for it (which is weird considering the involvement of the play testers and tournament community. The nova guy, frontline guys etc)

But unless tournaments start running more narrative style games, you would think a lot of the terrain and systems that are used would spill over into 9th?

I dunno maybe I’m way off course here but I think symmetrical maps are a good thing for balance.

Slightly boring perhaps but make for a fairer experience overall.

I’m not going to judge 9th in full till I’ve had 20+ games under my belt but the one thing that feels a step back is pregame deployment and establishing first turn. I like the maps have objectives baked in. I like that they have the type of deployment zones specified but it feels like something is missing.

I agree, I think the glaring letdown with 9e is first turn asymmetry, especially when we'd got to the point in 8e ITC where going second was very often to be preferred...

The problem is hard-baked into their scoring system. If the progressive scoring occurred at the end of the battleturn, I think that alone might be enough to balance 1st and 2nd.

With the new missions, is there scope for a Freeblade Armiger, Sworn to a Quest (reroll 1s against warlord, Obj Sec)?

Fast moving unit with a big base like a Warglaive seems like it'd be useful on the surface, or making your backfield Helverin need enemy troops to push it off an objective.

You'd not losing as much from your House traits as you would with a Questoris Freeblade.