Star Trek: general discussion-Picard, Discovery, Lower Decks (and Orville)

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**A Town Called Malus**

warboss wrote:
Kid_Kyoto wrote:
My pet theory is that Warp Factor is a measure of input rather than output.

It's how many times you've folded space around the ship, Warp 1, folded it one time. Warp 4, 4 times. Kind of like RPMs in your engine or fuel consumption, vs your actual speed.

How fast that makes you go depends on subspace conditions and suchwot, so Warp 4 might get you somewhere real soon in one episode, or take weeks in another.

That way Warp Speed is exactly as fast as the plot requires.

So basically like travelling through the warp in 40k but without navigators? STD fidget spinning being the exception with Stamets and the space bear of course...

Not quite. 40K warp travel involves entering a different reality.

In Star Trek, you bend the spacetime around your ship, whilst your ship travels at sublight speeds within that folded spacetime. If you have a piece of paper, call one corner A and the opposite corner B. With the paper laid flat, the shortest route between A and B is along the plane of the paper in a straight line. But if you grab those corners and start to fold them towards each other, you can now travel from one to the other in a shorter distance by leaving the plane of the paper, and therefore you can reduce the travel time between them. So your top speed is determined by how much you can bend spacetime around you. If you managed to completely fold it, so that the points are touching, you can travel instantaneously between two points, so that is likely to be the absolute limit of warp technology as once you achieve that, you can instantly travel anywhere in the universe.

Of course, this only really holds true for post-TOS films Trek. Star Trek IV throws out all pretences of warp drive having a limit when they use it to travel back in time.

**MDSW**

Another STE observation...

Why is it the show is so prudish that no one on board the ship dies? I am sure there are enough 'redshirts' to kill off one every so often and not obliterate the crew. Was STE for a different type of audience? The original Star Trek had crewman die in the first 30 seconds of some episodes.

..."He's dead, Jim..."

**beast_gts**

MDSW wrote:
Why is it the show is so prudish that no one on board the ship dies? I am sure there are enough 'redshirts' to kill off one every so often and not obliterate the crew. Was STE for a different type of audience? The original Star Trek had crewman die in the first 30 seconds of some episodes.

Smaller crew compliment (80?), and apparently the writers had most of them named at the start.

50-ish died according to this page.

**warboss**

MDSW wrote:
Another STE observation...

Why is it the show is so prudish that no one on board the ship dies? I am sure there are enough 'redshirts' to kill off one every so often and not obliterate the crew. Was STE for a different type of audience? The original Star Trek had crewman die in the first 30 seconds of some episodes.

..."He's dead, Jim..."

Dozens died but I think that was during the Xindi arc/season. Perhaps they do (I don't recall myself) and reference it in a damage/casualty report but don't necessarily show it gratuitously onscreen. Unlike STD and Picard, they didn't typically do it for shock value.

**MDSW**

Maybe there will be an upcoming episode where they milk the emotional value of a dead crewmember, and probably rather way over the top, but rightfully so, I guess given the small crew and their mission and such.

I am only about halfway through season 2, so nobody spoil it for me!!

**warboss**

MDSW wrote:
Maybe there will be an upcoming episode where they milk the emotional value of a dead crewmember, and probably rather way over the top, but rightfully so, I guess given the small crew and their mission and such.

I am only about halfway through season 2, so nobody spoil it for me!!

I know Tripp mourns a lost subordinate but I don't recall what season it was or in which encounter she died.

**Don Qui Hotep**

warboss wrote:
MDSW wrote:
Maybe there will be an upcoming episode where they milk the emotional value of a dead crewmember, and probably rather way over the top, but rightfully so, I guess given the small crew and their mission and such.

I am only about halfway through season 2, so nobody spoil it for me!!

I know Tripp mourns a lost subordinate but I don't recall what season it was or in which encounter she died.

Spoiler:

**Kid_Kyoto**

A Town Called Malus wrote:

Of course, this only really holds true for post-TOS films Trek. Star Trek IV throws out all pretences of warp drive having a limit when they use it to travel back in time.

A better explanation of what I was trying to say, thanks.

As for warp and time travel it was a feature of TOS too. And they actually set it up. In one episode the Enterprise is knocked away at high speed and they discover when they stop it's 3 days earlier. Kirk say something like, we should keep this in mind for later.

Then a few episodes later they time travel to the 60s for a back-door pilot for Mission Earth.

**Overread**

Yep Original Series established Time Travel as a thing and, interestingly considering all the random stuff they got up too in the Original Series that never stuck; Time Travel did stick. It's used in TNG and other series at least once or more and First Contact features it as the core part of the film.

**hotsauceman1**

But, if I remember properly, Time travel itself was never of purpose or every rarely done, it was always an accient. Except Movie 4 i think. Atleast the main characters never chose time travel.

**Kid_Kyoto**

hotsauceman1 wrote:
But, if I remember properly, Time travel itself was never of purpose or every rarely done, it was always an accient. Except Movie 4 i think. Atleast the main characters never chose time travel.

Sort of...

In Mission Earth the Enterprise is very definitely sent back in time to observe Earth's history. Something about how did Earth survive the Cold War.

By TNG time travel was common enough that people were trained for it, they had protocols and rules. Both DS9 and First Contact talk about it.

By Enterprise it was common enough that there was a temporal cold war going on... but let's not go there.

**Overread**

The problem with ST and time travel is that its so easy to do. In theory the Federation could have used it all the time for newly encountered races - pop back in time, set a few key elements up so that when the Federation does arrive in the future, the race is ready to join up.

The Borg or any military race, once finding Time Travel, should have used it extensively, they've no reason not too. Again, so long as their efforts focus on races and worlds that have no influence on their own time-line prior to the time travel event, they can just do whatever they want. Space creates huge barriers between worlds that allows you to mess with another worlds time-line without any (or very little) risk of a time paradox or blowback into yourself or your faction.

The Temporal Cold War in Enterprise "should" have happened in all the ages, it should have been a huge issue for the galaxy to contend with. Thing is its darn tricky to write into a series that isn't built on time travel. So in general it gets rolled out every so often, but is generally avoided at all costs by most races that learn of it.

Picard and other high ranking starfleet captains are clearly well aware of how to perform time travel and most of the bridge crew of most of the key Enterprise ships are clearly well aware of the mechanics.

It's the kind of thing that works in an "alien of the week" show, but fails when you try and take that same show and make it into a more serious long running story ark show. If anything I'd have welcomed Q doing a whole. "Oh we let you do that but we did it not you we just didn't tell you and enjoyed playing; but no you can't just do it whenever you want" kind of things

**warboss**

Don Qui Hotep wrote:
warboss wrote:

I know Tripp mourns a lost subordinate but I don't recall what season it was or in which encounter she died.

Spoiler:

I think it's Season 3, I remember it was difficult for him because it reminded him of his sister who died in the Xindi attack. I just watched the show a few months ago so it's fresher in my memory. Incidentally, that's why I like that they don't kill randos throughout the first and second season; Season 3 is such a dark turn and it lands much more effectively.

Thanks for the refresher! I might actually rewatch ENT this year. Around 4-5 years ago, my desire to watch it from beginning to end for the first time (I bowed out of regular viewing of it during its original second season run when it was put up against SG-1) is what got me back into online Trek fandom. I then followed it up with a DS9 full rewatch and selected viewings from the other series.

**chromedog**

The main issue with time travel is that once you have it, you have ALWAYS had it (because to a time traveller, "before" and "after" are irrelevant terms. They are only useful to someone stuck in the present, using a linear time model.)

**AduroT**

You don’t want to make too much use of time travel lest you inadvertently make the same mistake as the first time traveler.

**Kid_Kyoto**

A time war ST series would be pretty cool.

**Jadenim**

Overread’s post gives me an idea; what if the Q continuum actually exist to stop that kind of stuff from happening? A bit like the Timelords are supposed to in Doctor Who; they took it upon themselves to stop the universe disappearing up it’s own butthole from people mucking around with time (ignoring the fact that they were the ones who started mucking around with time in the first place!)

That would provide some nice development for the Q, beyond “doing stuff you mere mortals can’t understand” (which looks suspiciously like nothing) and “occasionally one of us is a narcissistic dick”.

**Overread**

I think the core problem with the Q doing that is that whilst they started as a powerful Judge like entity in the first episodes of TNG, they fast became a comic relief character through most interactions with a touch of "lessons of humanity or something" at the very end. Mostly because the Q we meet is very jovial and childish at times.

The Q, to me, are a recreation of the powerful creatures the Original Series team encountered several times in spirit; with a touch more seriousness and larger scale impacts.

Q did get some more serious story lines in Voyager. However that mostly just reinforced the point that the majority of the Q are focused on their own universe and its happenings.

I agree they could be a great counterbalance for things like time travel and alien races getting above themselves, but I don't think they've got anywhere near the backing to make that seem suitable for them.

**Mr Morden**

Trek has way too many "godlike" entities that not only don't seem to interact with each other but also never do or even show up when they really should.

Every so often they show up (for an episode) as guardians of this, that or the other but galaxy threatening stuff - nah they can't be bothered

Of course one of the only (sickening) explanations for Burnham is that she is one of them - if not love for one of them to pop in and mess with her.

The Voyager version of the Q was IMO (in keeping with much of the show) dull and tedious.

**Kroem**

Mr Morden wrote:

The Voyager version of the Q was IMO (in keeping with much of the show) dull and tedious.

There's something to be said for being consistent!

Q clearly being a a reference back to the original series and played for comic relief has never really made me try and logically integrate him into the universe at large, I don't think the Ques necessarily need a clear purpose, the other races don't have one after all!

**Kid_Kyoto**

Did they ever formally integrate the Qs with the various god-like beings of TOS, or just leave it for us to make assumptions.

Honestly I am of the mindset that it was budgets rather than any high-minded philosophical thoughts that led to the number of god-like beings in TOS. A guy who waves his arms or snaps his fingers is a lot cheaper to film than fleets of enemy warships or planet-destroying weapons.

**Overread**

They left it for assumptions, but a lot of the godlike beings just never get mentioned again. Don't forget Original series was very much of the "alien of the week" structure. They weren't really building long story lines or story arcs or character development as such. They didn't even really connect episodes together all that much. You could show much of the series out of order and not miss anything.

They didn't do proper stories until the films and then TNG and then again in DS9 (even then it took a season or two to really get going).

I think the one chance to make Q part of the universe was lose when they didn't develop Whoopy's character. Very early on she made a threatening pose toward Q and there was some kind of hint there that there was some rivalry between the races. However whilst Q developed, they never really took that same angle with Whoopy again. I wonder if in part it was because she was more of a guest actress rather than every week appearing (there's even quite a few set in Ten Forward where they use Data and other crew as staff behind the bar - she was never there all the time like Quark in DS9).

**BobtheInquisitor**

They probably realized that having a Q-level being on the ship would deflate the drama, so they dropped it and hoped the audience would forget. She still gets up to weird stuff, like in Yesterday’s Enterprise, or the Mark Twain episodes, but they made her a lot less mysterious.

As for the Q never being around when they are most needed...perhaps they are, but those are the times when they are the most subtle. Wouldn’t want the Federation to learn the wrong lessons.

Star Trek also built a coherent explanation for all the godlike beings, accidentally. We’ve seen beings “evolve” into energy beings or psychic races a number of times. We’ve seen beings in subspace dimensions that interact with the universe in mind-boggling ways. And most intelligent beings in the galaxy(?) share DNA, probably some neurobiology, so could conceivably develop along similar paths. The Star Trek universe is littered with remains of great civilizations that either died out or somehow ceased their biological existence, so there must be something going on in the other planes of existence that appeals.

**Kroem**

I just watched the DS9 episode "Return to Grace", reminded me what a brilliant character Gul Dukat is! He really does steal the show on every episode he's in.

What I love about him is that, no matter the setback or scale of the task ahead of him, he always bets on himself and is confident in his ability to overcome it.
Take on the whole Klingon Empire alone? Yea sure, they won't know what hit them!

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

I’d say Dukat is definitely not just an interesting character, but an essential one.

Whether an antagonist or protagonist, working alone or with others, he convinces as a single entity.

Yes, he is occasionally contrary - but through good writing and character development. His actions can be contrary because Dukat is contrary.

Compare to Janeway, who as noted elsewhere in this thread isn’t a terribly consistent character, with her decisions and actions being driven entirely by whatever the plot requires.

I think the core thing about Dukat is that he is at all times playing a Long Game. When considered that way, you see he’s only doing X, because it’ll serve him in achieving Y later on. He gives aid, because he knows it generates a favour, or at least gets someone’s guard down.

We see much the same in Quark and Garak - just manifested in different ways.

I’ve just read this article about Bryan Fuller’s experiences on DS9 and Voyager and figured it might add to the conversation.

It does dip into real world politics a bit, but I trust my fellow Dakkanauts know not to get into that. One this is Dakka, and we Don’t Discuss That. Two it’s just a dude’s opinion, and without him amongst us there’s no point in discussing it further, as he can neither expand or explain further.

**Overread**

Annnd I just tried watching Star Trek Into Darkness....

I think I'm going to have to order some kind of blueray complete movie set of the original films or something to clean my head because MY GODS the writing its its its...

rant active:

Spoiler:

**LordofHats**

Do the Klingons even feature again? A whole team is slaughtered in a backwater region (why is there such a large number in such an empty area?) and there doesn't seem to be any kind of response at all.

That backwater is Qonos. The Klingon home world. In a time where the Klingon's the Federation were at their throats. The fact only a few Klingon's showed up for this and that it didn't spark war immediately like the big bad wanted is only slightly less absurd than the idea that Khan transported himself from Earth to Qonos.

So yes. It is actually worse than you think XD

Cumberbach's performance is the only part of Into Darkness worth praising. I know some people hated it, but I thought he captured the low level menace of Khan well and was the only part of the movie worthy of praise. The action set pieces were okayish I guess, but the plot was so bad it's hard to appreciate them.

He added “They discouraged you from being the geek in the room, and so it was always like looking over the fence at the public school when you were in Catholic school and saying, ‘they look like they’re having more fun.'”

This line does not shock me.

It's amazing, for all the praise it gets from some fans, how unfun Voyager is. All the time. Voyager seems almost constantly set against having fun in any capacity. It's completely different in that regard from TOS, TNG, and DS9. None of those shows were afraid of showing characters and crews at their silliest and most light hearted, indulging in the eccentricities of the cast members and their characters. From Data's having a pet cat, to Worf's romantic idealism of Klingon culture, to the Kirk/Spock/McCoy bromance, to Sisko's fascination with a dead sport few have played in hundreds of years. That just wasn't a thing in Voyager. In Voyager it was almost constant life or death or moral quagmire. Only the Doctor or Paris ever really got to indulge in the series' sillier side and it's no coincidence imo than the Doctor was the best part of Voyager and Paris' easily one of it's most well developed and engaging characters (a shame he constantly forgot his character development when the plot demanded it).

Finding out the writing room was anti-fun surprises me not one bit. Voyager was an anti-fun series that could never let itself go and be less than super duper serial.

**Overread**

Yeah backwater region of the homeworld, which is why I was so confused at why they didn't respond. And yeah I'd forgotten about him randomly beaming himself there.

I do agree Khan was great, he oozed a level of sophistication and maturity that almost all around him (barring spock every so often) lacked. I think his acting of menace is good, but the scenes and background music overblew it and the way he's presented overblows it. It's not so much his performance, its everything around him (which is almost everything barring great big "I'm probably RELALY BAD" neon flashing signs and sirens).

As for Spot, I never saw it as humour that Data had a cat, but I do get your meaning on fun in the writing team and the lack of fun spilling into Voyager. I guess their hope was that they'd somehow manage to capture DS9 at its most serious with TNG's explore and discover new races elements or such. Honestly I did and do enjoy Voyager, it just has the issue that its a step backward in a series that took huge steps forward in DS9. That said I still hold it up higher than many of the series that have come after (though I will say that the way they ended Voyager felt forced and rushed in a -get them home and kill all the borg in one go etc.. kinda way

**LordofHats**

Overread wrote:
I do agree Khan was great, he oozed a level of sophistication and maturity that almost all around him (barring spock every so often) lacked. I think his acting of menace is good, but the scenes and background music overblew it and the way he's presented overblows it. It's not so much his performance, its everything around him (which is almost everything barring great big "I'm probably RELALY BAD" neon flashing signs and sirens).

I get that. The film definitely kind of ran on a 'You know Khan is in this one right wink wink nudge nudge' thing, and it detracts from the movie as a whole.

As for Spot, I never saw it as humour that Data had a cat, but I do get your meaning on fun in the writing team and the lack of fun spilling into Voyager.

Yeah, I think I worded that bit poorly.

The article itself just words it better. I totally get what the guy is saying when he says he felt Voyager was oppressive and refused to cut loose in the writing room. The series had that air on screen to, like it just wasn't willing to let itself go. Meanwhile, we've got DS9 episodes like the House of Quark and Take me out to the Holosuite, which indulged the character's eccentric qualities and even made them the entire point of episodes. It's silly in a way, but then you carry it on to episodes like It's Only a Paper Moon, a deeply emotional episode about Nog recovering from war injuries and moving on from trauma, that was set in a holosuit program based on Frank Sinatra! It's just goofy, and fun and it's a quality that's almost entirely absent from Voyager, Enterprise and Discovery. It's those moments of levity and the willingness to let the characters be a bit goofy that I think really makes the casts of TNG and DS9 stand out in the ways that Voyager's cast didn't. It fleshes the characters out in a way that the constant barrage of 'this is serious' doesn't in later Trek shows.

**Don Qui Hotep**

I think Season 3 of Enterprise took the concept of "ship lost in a strange part of space" to its logical conclusion, and kind of makes all of Voyager redundant. Look at how badly the NX-01 gets treated throughout the season. It really feels like they're out in the middle of nowhere, without any backup. And they haven't even left the Alpha Quadrant!