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Voss wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:
You know what would have helped immensely in this situation? More funding for Education to deal with this sort of thing. Actually dealing with infrastructure needs and treating the internet as basic utilities.

Hindsight is 20/20 though! So here we go! Sure hope none of those big colleges or universities go out of business. *eats chips* I would feel terrible if those loans got forgiven.

Why would they be? Most student loans aren't with the universities. Even if they did go out of business, people will still have the loans.

Its also a bit of a tangent from the K-12 education people have been talking about.

Not all loans are through the Government. Which means some loans would be forgiven due to the school no longer existing. Lots of small colleges have things like this, at the local community college I never took a loan with the government but I did get in debt to the College. The Government could of course decide they are too big to fail and prop them up, but then that would be an even bigger fiasco in the long run.

If you want to look in to even more fun issues with this, look in to employers paying for employee education. This is huge in healthcare, agree to work for a place for 2 years after your graduation and you will get a free ride through RN school at the local crappy junior college. The Hospital doesn't actually pay much in the way of your education, because the Hospital and the College have an agreement for their Clinicals to be held there. Now imagine the College you went to goes under and well, nobody has those records anymore. The ONLY place that will believe your degree is your current job. You cannot prove you earned your degree or it exists. This was happening before Covid, so it will only get worse.

As far as K-12, we have been willing to let children die in school shootings for decades now with no sign of even attempting to deal with the situation. Why are people shocked that we are willing to send kids in to danger during a Pandemic? This is par for the course.

 Dreadwinter wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:
You know what would have helped immensely in this situation? More funding for Education to deal with this sort of thing. Actually dealing with infrastructure needs and treating the internet as basic utilities.

Hindsight is 20/20 though! So here we go! Sure hope none of those big colleges or universities go out of business. *eats chips* I would feel terrible if those loans got forgiven.

Why would they be? Most student loans aren't with the universities. Even if they did go out of business, people will still have the loans.

Its also a bit of a tangent from the K-12 education people have been talking about.

Not all loans are through the Government. Which means some loans would be forgiven due to the school no longer existing. Lots of small colleges have things like this, at the local community college I never took a loan with the government but I did get in debt to the College. The Government could of course decide they are too big to fail and prop them up, but then that would be an even bigger fiasco in the long run.

I didn't even vaguely suggest they were all through the government. I didn't mention the government at all.
They do quite a few, but when they don't, most schools bounce the students over to a variety of lending institutions (banks and other private lenders, particularly Sallie Mae and Nelnet), they don't do it themselves. Checking on it, its rare enough that I can't find any references to it happening on a regular basis. Some school-channel loans involved certification of the amount (by the school) but they still aren't the lender.

It still doesn't have anything to do with the topic, though.

Voss wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:
You know what would have helped immensely in this situation? More funding for Education to deal with this sort of thing. Actually dealing with infrastructure needs and treating the internet as basic utilities.

Hindsight is 20/20 though! So here we go! Sure hope none of those big colleges or universities go out of business. *eats chips* I would feel terrible if those loans got forgiven.

Why would they be? Most student loans aren't with the universities. Even if they did go out of business, people will still have the loans.

Its also a bit of a tangent from the K-12 education people have been talking about.

Not all loans are through the Government. Which means some loans would be forgiven due to the school no longer existing. Lots of small colleges have things like this, at the local community college I never took a loan with the government but I did get in debt to the College. The Government could of course decide they are too big to fail and prop them up, but then that would be an even bigger fiasco in the long run.

I didn't even vaguely suggest they were all through the government. I didn't mention the government at all.
They do quite a few, but when they don't, most schools bounce the students over to a variety of lending institutions (banks and other private lenders, particularly Sallie Mae and Nelnet), they don't do it themselves. Checking on it, its rare enough that I can't find any references to it happening on a regular basis. Some school-channel loans involved certification of the amount (by the school) but they still aren't the lender.

It still doesn't have anything to do with the topic, though.

The second part of what I originally said didn't have to do with K-12, but education. The second was added on for fun, because of the major issues a lot of these colleges are going to be having major issues with these sorts of things. Which happen.

The first part I said about not putting funding towards education and not dealing with infrastructure issues definitely had to do with the topic though. Why am I having the explain this?

 CptJake wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
You got a better idea?

Yep, let her go to school until the county can put in the infrastructure required to make distant learning effective (broadband access, teach the teachers how to do it effectively, ensure kids have the tech they need and so on).

Sure. I mean, we're not going to do that, either. Too many people are going to scream about how that sounds like socialism, and the invisible hand, and all the stuff that brought us to where we are now: deciding what percentage of the elderly we are comfortable with needlessly dying so that we can pretend the Coronavirus isn't real and send kids back to their schools\infesting pits.

We're not supposed to talk about politics here, but politics are what brought us precisely to this false dichotomy of bad decisions. it's like being in a room with an elephant, and everyone discussing how bad the piles of poop smell, but no one is allowed to mention the elephant.

I don't think we should be re-opening schools until either the curve is much, much flatter than it is now... or we have a vaccine. I'm sure all the people that have said All Lives Matter with a straight face will agree with me.

 Ouze wrote:

 CptJake wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
You got a better idea?

Yep, let her go to school until the county can put in the infrastructure required to make distant learning effective (broadband access, teach the teachers how to do it effectively, ensure kids have the tech they need and so on).

Sure. I mean, we're not going to do that, either. Too many people are going to scream about how that sounds like socialism, and the invisible hand, and all the stuff that brought us to where we are now: deciding what percentage of the elderly we are comfortable with needlessly dying so that we can pretend the Coronavirus isn't real and send kids back to their schools\infesting pits.

We're not supposed to talk about politics here, but politics are what brought us precisely to this false dichotomy of bad decisions. it's like being in a room with an elephant, and everyone discussing how bad the piles of poop smell, but no one is allowed to mention the elephant.

I don't think we should be re-opening schools until either the curve is much, much flatter than it is now... or we have a vaccine. I'm sure all the people that have said All Lives Matter with a straight face will agree with me.

I think schools could open just like many work places have. The schools could implement COVID mitigation strategies just like I have to at work. Basically stopping education for a huge chunk of the population isn't a good thing. I believe the reality is we are going to have to deal with COVID-19 and whatever comes next for a long time. Stopping basic societal activities indefinitely in the hopes a vaccine shows up and can be distributed doesn't make sense to me. We need to learn to operate in the contaminated environment. You mitigate risk to an acceptable level and drive on.

Clearly there are trade spaces, it isn't Open Everything as if there was no COVID or Shut Down Everything as the only options. Like it or not we need to figure out how to live with it.

Hahahaha, we can't even get people here in the US to wear masks without Dear Leader's approval and you want to reopen?

No. Just no. The time for "Open Everything As If There Was No COVID" isn't coming, because they chose to make an already untenable situation worse back in March/April by passing the buck to states as quickly as they could.

 RiTides wrote:
Stratigo, you clearly view it as binary “Open, Yes/No?”. If I did, too, the answer would be “No.” But there are about a thousand options between those binary poles, and I’m much more interested in talking to people who can at least acknowledge that (and consider the cost to kids across the range of options).

 CptJake wrote:
I live in a pretty rural area (Aiken county, SC), and broadband internet is not available everywhere. Add in some families with multiple school aged kids do not have multiple computers and 'online' or 'distant learning' just doesn't work well. In the suburban/urban parts of the county it may work better, but definitely not in all areas. Surrounding counties are more rural. The 'distant learning' just isn't a one size fits all solution.

Exactly...

Each school has to decide based on their student population, facilities, viral caseload, etc and be ready to adapt quickly if their first attempt results in either increased viral transmission, lack of educational progress, or both.

You know that won't happen. Schools are not allowed to decide if they're open or not. It'll be the Superintendents at the district level. For instance, my county's reopening plan (Keep in mind this is a county in FL, land of 10,000 new cases a day) in the event of a student testing positive is for the parent to report it to the principal. The principal kicks it up to the superintendent. It's the same procedure if a teacher tests positive. The individual that tests positive is then to quarantine for 2 weeks, or until 72 hours without fever. You'll notice that missing from this is any track and trace protocol, where we tell the other students that they've been exposed and should get tested. Social media will take care of it for us, of course, but the fact that our leadership would rather keep control of the information rather than alert the people impacted by it is horrifying. At present, the plan isn't even to shut down a classroom when a positive case presents itself. You may not even be informed when your children are exposed to students or teacher who test positive for Coronavirus.

 CptJake wrote:
I think schools could open just like many work places have. The schools could implement COVID mitigation strategies just like I have to at work. Basically stopping education for a huge chunk of the population isn't a good thing.

You argued earlier that it was too complex for most children to study from packets, but you're also thinking those same children can be trusted the way adults can with using hand sanitizer, keeping social distance, wearing masks, and all the other things that adults have done in their workplaces. To reiterate, a great many workplaces are not open, also - lets not gloss over that, a huge chunk are still working remotely when possible. I don't think same kids that can't keep their fingers out of their noses can be trusted to efficiently scrub down x times per day.

I agree stopping education for a huge chunk of the population is undesirable. So is needlessly killing a lot of vulnerable people. Kids can catch up on their classes - and this is a distinct minority of children with no broadband, no ability to work from packets, etc. A subset of the learning population. Once those people are dead, they are dead.

Covid is not going to last forever; there is going to be a vaccine. It might be 6 months, it might be a year, it might be 2 years. AstraZeneca is already starting phase 3 of their vaccine. If we could come together as a country, and really start aggressively getting on the same page - social distancing, harsh lockdowns, very high mask compliance, effective track and trace - we could flatten the hell out of the curve in 2 months and resume a semblance of normal life, just dealing with flareups. We know this is possible because other countries have done this.

I don't agree we just need to accept the vulnerable are gonna die anyway so lets get on with it. It is a deeply, deeply immoral stance.

If you can't trust elementary schools to effectively prevent the spread of lice or chickenpox, why do you realistically think they would be even more effective at covid?

Schools could be opened easily if us would follow european's lead and get virus in control. But when situation is more like this...

One thing to remember is how Americans think.
For the longest time, we where taught only way to survive is to work. That is the ONLY way you get to live. No one, Especially the govern\ment, gets to help you.
So the Govt starts closing things, with not helping those we are closing beyond 1200$
Well......Then people are loosing houses, money, and cars. So we demand we have the govt help us.......nope
We demand things reopen because we have been programmed to only think about work and our Status Quo.
Remember the infamous line "Dont think about what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country" is very thinly veiled where country means "Govt"

People are so desperate to get to normal because its so stressful....but normal isnt coming back. Ever. we are forging a new normal, one im hoping ends up better.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
are so desperate to get to normal because its so stressful....but normal isnt coming back. Ever. we are forging a new normal, one im hoping ends up better.

Heck to the no. This is an event to be endured. Creating a society based around limiting human contact as standard is unhealthy.

 Scrabb wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
are so desperate to get to normal because its so stressful....but normal isnt coming back. Ever. we are forging a new normal, one im hoping ends up better.

Heck to the no. This is an event to be endured. Creating a society based around limiting human contact as standard is unhealthy.

I mean.....No?
That isnt what i meant. What i mean is society is going to be changing with massive social changes coming up, that will end up for the better.
Also, One where movie theaters are dead. feth em i hope they die

These are the conditions that should have lead to something like a new New Deal, government leadership with programs to help the vulnerable and provide for the destitute. This is exactly the kind of situation that is too big for individuals to handle and requires government action. Unfortunately, the government decided to pass the buck and then hobble actual leadership in the states to cover up its own incompetence.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

Also, One where movie theaters are dead. feth em i hope they die

In other words, 'I don't like this thing, and feth everyone that does like it'

Movie theaters are the worst. You go in, spend like, 29-30$ to see a movie in a crowded room full of strangers who never stay quiet and laugh so hard I miss parts of the movie. if you gotta pee you miss parts of the movie.
Where movie can be release direct to my house, they have no purpose anymore. They only exist to justify hollywoods giant overinflated budget CGI driven mess.
Trolls 2 and Onward did amazing with VOD, lets follow their lead.

Movie theaters are fine. I like going to them comfy chairs and an overpriced snack as a treat. Just go a week or two after release to cut down on crowds and watch a big release movie on a giant screen and big sound. Combine with a meal out (before or after) and that's a nice evening.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Movie theaters are the worst. You go in, spend like, 29-30$ to see a movie in a crowded room full of strangers who never stay quiet and laugh so hard I miss parts of the movie. if you gotta pee you miss parts of the movie.
Where movie can be release direct to my house, they have no purpose anymore. They only exist to justify hollywoods giant overinflated budget CGI driven mess.
Trolls 2 and Onward did amazing with VOD, lets follow their lead.

No to get too far off topic, but I love movie theaters. The energy of a crowd can make some movies, even terrible movies like Cats, into amazing experiences.

I wish everyone would take this pandemic seriously, wear masks and cooperate with track and trace programs so we could start getting back to enjoying public life again in three months instead of two years.

 Kanluwen wrote:
The time for "Open Everything As If There Was No COVID" isn't coming, because they chose to make an already untenable situation worse back in March/April by passing the buck to states as quickly as they could.

I disagree with your last point, and I feel it is actually an important distinction to make: the buck could have been passed as early as January, certainly by February. Instead they chose to actively dismiss the problem as a non-issue. There are still a huge amount of people in the US partly or totally dismissive of Covid as a result.

That's actually why I made the point about "make an already untenable situation worse". Prior to March/April, it was being dismissed as a flu or something like that--not a pandemic. March/April saw the whole "it's a state thing, we can't do nothin! we're just the federal government!" start up.

Schools are reopening here in the Fall. Sports conditioning has already started at the High School. Football Conditioning has already been suspended because of a positive Covid test on the team. This Fall is going to be HYPE!

Feth them kids. Let em die! I need my sportsball!

 Dreadwinter wrote:
Schools are reopening here in the Fall. Sports conditioning has already started at the High School. Football Conditioning has already been suspended because of a positive Covid test on the team. This Fall is going to be HYPE!

Feth them kids. Let em die! I need my sportsball!

But Dread, one of those kids could get a sports scholarship. So it's totally worth risking the health of the players, staff and family members!

/s

 ScarletRose wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:
Schools are reopening here in the Fall. Sports conditioning has already started at the High School. Football Conditioning has already been suspended because of a positive Covid test on the team. This Fall is going to be HYPE!

Feth them kids. Let em die! I need my sportsball!

But Dread, one of those kids could get a sports scholarship. So it's totally worth risking the health of the players, staff and family members!

/s

I just checked and two more have it. I didn't think they would make an announcement about it on the radio here at 9PM. This is Sunday in a VERY rural and VERY christian area. We cannot even buy alcohol here on Sundays, our Walmart has no liquor license. Things must be getting real. The locals are getting frightened.....

Edit: Random Capitalization

 ScarletRose wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:
Schools are reopening here in the Fall. Sports conditioning has already started at the High School. Football Conditioning has already been suspended because of a positive Covid test on the team. This Fall is going to be HYPE!

Feth them kids. Let em die! I need my sportsball!

But Dread, one of those kids could get a sports scholarship. So it's totally worth risking the health of the players, staff and family members!

/s

Dude dont get off topic, we can talk about head injuries in sports players in another thread.......
OH, you do mean covid, my bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dreadwinter wrote:

I just checked and two more have it. I didn't think they would make an announcement about it on the radio here at 9PM. This is Sunday in a VERY rural and VERY christian area. We cannot even buy alcohol here on Sundays, our Walmart has no liquor license. Things must be getting real. The locals are getting frightened.....

Edit: Random Capitalization

Wait.....the RADIO announced school football changes?

Scrabb wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
are so desperate to get to normal because its so stressful....but normal isnt coming back. Ever. we are forging a new normal, one im hoping ends up better.

Heck to the no. This is an event to be endured. Creating a society based around limiting human contact as standard is unhealthy.

I think there have to be some positives that come out of this situation, and I think it's likely to fall somewhere in between 'no contact' and 'contact all the time'
Take commuting for example. I miss working in an office and face to face conversation with my work colleagues. I don't miss the 15-20 hours a week I spend with the several million people in the country sat looking at the brake lights of the car in front.
Now that a lot of businesses have proven that distance working is indeed possible (and I suspect profitable) I'm expecting some kind of hybrid home/office work schedule even when/if the virus has disappeared entirely, with a mix of the two.
I suspect a lot of people will be having this kind of discussion with their employers and I think most companies will be having this discussion themselves.

In terms of the ecology, at least where I live the difference in air quality from the reduced traffic is definitely noticeable. It's incredible how far you can now see from local hill-tops without the pall of traffic smoke!
I'm looking at places more local to home (B&Bs in the countryside etc.) for holidays rather than the auto-holiday to Spain or Italy every single year.
Bad for the airlines I know but that wasn't ever going to be sustainable if people in coastal cities aren't going to have water around their ankles in 40-50 years time.
I think all of these things combined with a renewed effort from governments for green initiatives - try and use public investment to kickstart economies, there is definitely a massive potential to make something of all this.

What we mustn't do is go back to how things were, just because that's how they were, but I think it gives an opportunity to decide about what is in need of change.

Ouze wrote:

 CptJake wrote:
I think schools could open just like many work places have. The schools could implement COVID mitigation strategies just like I have to at work. Basically stopping education for a huge chunk of the population isn't a good thing.

You argued earlier that it was too complex for most children to study from packets, but you're also thinking those same children can be trusted the way adults can with using hand sanitizer, keeping social distance, wearing masks, and all the other things that adults have done in their workplaces. To reiterate, a great many workplaces are not open, also - lets not gloss over that, a huge chunk are still working remotely when possible. I don't think same kids that can't keep their fingers out of their noses can be trusted to efficiently scrub down x times per day.

I agree stopping education for a huge chunk of the population is undesirable. So is needlessly killing a lot of vulnerable people. Kids can catch up on their classes - and this is a distinct minority of children with no broadband, no ability to work from packets, etc. A subset of the learning population. Once those people are dead, they are dead.

Covid is not going to last forever; there is going to be a vaccine. It might be 6 months, it might be a year, it might be 2 years. AstraZeneca is already starting phase 3 of their vaccine. If we could come together as a country, and really start aggressively getting on the same page - social distancing, harsh lockdowns, very high mask compliance, effective track and trace - we could flatten the hell out of the curve in 2 months and resume a semblance of normal life, just dealing with flareups. We know this is possible because other countries have done this.

I don't agree we just need to accept the vulnerable are gonna die anyway so lets get on with it. It is a deeply, deeply immoral stance.

If you can't trust elementary schools to effectively prevent the spread of lice or chickenpox, why do you realistically think they would be even more effective at covid?

A really well written post, I agree entirely.

..so we had a protest in London on the weekend against masks/lumped in with all the 5g nonsense and everything else that's going on as usual.


https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-government-admits-its-test-and-trace-programme-is-unlawful-12032136

"Coronavirus: Government admits its Test and Trace programme is unlawful"


....

This follows on from scattered reports on social media of people being targeted by text adverts and the like after leaving contact details and the entirely unsurprising cases of customers being contacted by bar staff/similar after giving their details -- despite them protesting they totally did not get their details from the T & T info.

nosiree.

In better news though : "UK secures deal for 90 million COVID-19 vaccine doses
The UK has become the first country to sign a deal with a number of pharmaceutical companies for early access to COVID-19 vaccines. The first is with BioNTech and Pfizer, for 30 million doses. The second deal, for 60 million doses, is with French firm Valneva. These are in addition to the 100 million doses of the Oxford University vaccine being developed by AstraZeneca"

... now we just wait to find out if we have in fact bought the wrong ones or perhaps have bought from a firm that does not in fact sell vaccines at all.

 reds8n wrote:

... now we just wait to find out if we have in fact bought the wrong ones or perhaps have bought from a firm that does not in fact sell vaccines at all.

Was Chris Grayling involved at any point???

I don't think so.. it would have been 90 million tubs of Vaseline if he had been

In my local, rural area the testing kits at the only drive-thru testing center ran out a few days ago.

Since then our new cases have flat lined! Success!

Edit: Also got a notice from the school district. The plan to keep kids from getting COVID this year is for all parents to sign waivers so the school can not be sued if they get COVID. That will protect someone but I am not sure it is the kids.

 Ouze wrote:

 CptJake wrote:
I think schools could open just like many work places have. The schools could implement COVID mitigation strategies just like I have to at work. Basically stopping education for a huge chunk of the population isn't a good thing.

You argued earlier that it was too complex for most children to study from packets, but you're also thinking those same children can be trusted the way adults can with using hand sanitizer, keeping social distance, wearing masks, and all the other things that adults have done in their workplaces. To reiterate, a great many workplaces are not open, also - lets not gloss over that, a huge chunk are still working remotely when possible. I don't think same kids that can't keep their fingers out of their noses can be trusted to efficiently scrub down x times per day.

I agree stopping education for a huge chunk of the population is undesirable. So is needlessly killing a lot of vulnerable people. Kids can catch up on their classes - and this is a distinct minority of children with no broadband, no ability to work from packets, etc. A subset of the learning population. Once those people are dead, they are dead.

Covid is not going to last forever; there is going to be a vaccine. It might be 6 months, it might be a year, it might be 2 years. AstraZeneca is already starting phase 3 of their vaccine. If we could come together as a country, and really start aggressively getting on the same page - social distancing, harsh lockdowns, very high mask compliance, effective track and trace - we could flatten the hell out of the curve in 2 months and resume a semblance of normal life, just dealing with flareups. We know this is possible because other countries have done this.

I don't agree we just need to accept the vulnerable are gonna die anyway so lets get on with it. It is a deeply, deeply immoral stance.

If you can't trust elementary schools to effectively prevent the spread of lice or chickenpox, why do you realistically think they would be even more effective at covid?

You are really oversimplifying schools' role in kids' lives. A year of not being able to attend school properly means wasting a year of the childs' time during which the brain can learn new things at (comparatively) breakneck speed. This speed rapidly declines as the child comes closer to adulthood where it settles at a much slower pace. Ever wondered why every child that doesn't have a mental handicap learns to speak it's native language fluently while picking up a new language at age 30 is very hard for even the most gifted of people? That's the reason. Wasting a year of this time means irrepairably damaging the childs' development having lifelong consequences on wellbeing, job prospects etc. And I haven't even talked about jeopardizing childrens' mental and social development by keeping them home away from their peers. That too will incur irrepairable damage.

Does this mean I would support reopening schools in the middle of the clusterfeth that the US is right now? I'm not sure. I can very much understand the anxiety and opposition to it in the current situation. I do strongly feel that schools should be the last to close and the first to reopen again in a situation like this however. Both to minimize the developmental damage done to our children and also because I strongly feel this isn't their crisis. SARS-CoV-2 is a direct consequence of decades of human greed and carelessness so our chilldren had no part in causing this bs. Therefore we should do our very best to minimize the impact of this crisis on them. And it's also why I fully support schools fully reopening here in the Netherlands (we have much lower infection numbers here) after the summer break. If that means us adults have to take an extra step back in order to prevent the epidemic from exploding, so be it. I can make up for cancelled parties, festivals and what have you later. A child can't do the same for disruptions to their development.

 Easy E wrote:
In my local, rural area the testing kits at the only drive-thru testing center ran out a few days ago.

Since then our new cases have flat lined! Success!

Edit: Also got a notice from the school district. The plan to keep kids from getting COVID this year is for all parents to sign waivers so the school can not be sued if they get COVID. That will protect someone but I am not sure it is the kids.

Impressive....