Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
For the scalpel to be used you'd need to understand the anatomy first though meaning track and trace as disgusting as that Pill is aswell as testing Rates including high Risk workers to be Testes mandatorily, etc would lend itself to such an approach.
Comparatively to that mandatory Mask wearing is however harmless.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/27 22:28:57
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
The Czech Republic is a case study on the effect of practical use of masks. That is, the mask use since the mandate included face coverings that were available when masks weren't (eg. DIY cloth masks, scarves), as well as mask use that may have been less than ideal, as well as not everyone in the population wearing a mask. The mandate was from mid-March thorugh late May, about four months. After the mandate was lifted, cases rose again, and the mandate will be reinstated. AFAIK, CR has made no other changes.
"Through March, April and most of May, only a small minority, perhaps 10-15%, could be seen without face coverings in the streets of Prague. Within two weeks of the government’s mandatory face mask order in mid-March, the daily number of new coronavirus cases dropped throughout the Czech Republic. In Prague, which had been the initial epicenter of the country’s virus outbreak, daily new infections fell into the double digits (and often the single digits) in April. .. None of the other emergency measures adopted by the Czech government at the outset of the crisis — stay-at-home orders, business lockdowns, border closures and recommendations that citizens practice social distancing — had anywhere near the impact of the face mask requirement. .. Even the coronavirus testing and contact tracing efforts here were lackluster."
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/czech-republic-has-lifesaving-covid-19-lesson-for-america-wear-a-face-mask/ar-BB16IauB
"Starting at midnight on July 25, Czechs are again obliged to wear masks at indoor events with more than 100 people across the country, according to the new emergency anit-coronavirus (COVID-19) measures introduced by the health ministry on July 23. The number of daily new cases in the Czech Republic exceeded 200 last week. There are now more than 5,000 active cases of coronavirus for the first time since the pandemic started. ... “We will not introduce any measures that would restrict the economy or the free movement of people,” he stressed. "
https://www.intellinews.com/czech-republic-introduced-new-emergency-anti-covid-measures-188263/
Easy E wrote: This same old argument again. I guess the oldies are the goodies.
QAR- How do you feel about No Shoes, No Shirt, No Service signs at stores? Are they a violation of your freedoms or some sort of indoctrination to obedience?
And I see you've dragged out that old tired counterargument. But no.
Stores as private enterprises, can implement whatever policies they like. I, am objecting to the GOVERNMENT mandating what I must do.
LoL, the GOVT tells you what to do all the time. cant urinate or defecate in public places, cant go around naked, cant drive without aa license, can t do X, cant do Y.
Its a poor excuse and your know it.
Yeah I think you are missing the point here.
No, we aren't. They are complaining about the government mandating things. The Government mandates a lot of things they can and cannot do. Do not try to dumb this down with bad arguments.
I see the problem now! This is why we need Mandatory Medical Training. Because that training states that everyone is a biohazard, there is no possible way of knowing what another person has or does not have, play it safe. It is really not a hard concept and it is universally used by, as far as I know, every healthcare professional in the world.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/28 03:14:27
Well that is another page of wasted discussion. Seriously guys, QAR is not arguing in good faith, ignore and move on to members who want to talk with you and not at you. The logic and science has been explained repeatedly, QAR refuses it for reasons we all know are political. That behavior is what led to politics being banned and I would really hate to see this thread go the same way for the same reason.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Well that is another page of wasted discussion. Seriously guys, QAR is not arguing in good faith, ignore and move on to members who want to talk with you and not at you. The logic and science has been explained repeatedly, QAR refuses it for reasons we all know are political. That behavior is what led to politics being banned and I would really hate to see this thread go the same way for the same reason.
Quoted for truth.
To be honest, as far as conspiracy theories go I am less likely to believe that 'totalitarian' EU governments are rubbing their hands together with glee that their scheme to make people wear masks increased their power by 21,4%. What I find more likely (still in the absurd conspiracy theory category ofc ) is that there are groups interested in spreading harmful nonsense and misinformation to help the virus spread and kill as many people as possible. Apocalyptic religious death cults, radical eco-terrorists, great culling advocates - we know such freaks exist for real, so why not on the internet, why not on this site?
(on a side note, as a person born in Poland in 1979 I find quite a few things some of you - spoiled westerners - call communist or authoritarian or totalitarian, pretty laughable )
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/07/28 07:06:30
I’d also question exactly how long people are wearing their masks for,
Me? Well, I’m working from home, so most of the day it’s just me, in front of my screen [strike]posting on Dakka and watching YouTube[/strike] getting on with my job.
I’ll usually nip round to Sainsbury’s (a five minute walk) every other day to get munchies and drinkies. I’ll be in the shop maybe 20 or so minutes.
As I have my own car, I’m not reliant on public transport at all, so there’s no need for a mask there (unless I’m giving someone a lift, in which case I’ll happily mask up)
My tattoo last Saturday (it’s a Quintesson, but with different Beavis faces, it’s called The Three Faces of Stupid)? Yep, was masked up for the duration, which was around four hours. And that’s the longest I’ve worn one.
So any discomfort (I can breathe just fine, but it is nice to get it off when I’m home) is minimal.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I’d also question exactly how long people are wearing their masks for,
Me? Well, I’m working from home, so most of the day it’s just me, in front of my screen [strike]posting on Dakka and watching YouTube[/strike] getting on with my job.
When I'm out, I wear it when going into a building, until I'm out. If I'm between buildings, and the walk is short, it stays on.
If I'm at my desk, it comes off when there's no-one about.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Well that is another page of wasted discussion. Seriously guys, QAR is not arguing in good faith, ignore and move on to members who want to talk with you and not at you. The logic and science has been explained repeatedly, QAR refuses it for reasons we all know are political. That behavior is what led to politics being banned and I would really hate to see this thread go the same way for the same reason.
it may surprise you to learn that someone disagreeing with you is not the same as arguing in bad faith. I've laid out the logic behind my argument, and that handy little quip doesn't allow you to just dismiss me simply because I am able to back up that logic in the face of your replies, which generally just consist of 'no' and offer no genuine refutation.
It's also somewhat ironic that you accuse me of arguing in bad faith, whilst being happy to partake of ad hominem, and appealing to the majority in an attempt to have my opinions essentially 'no platformed' in this very post.
but I guess if you cant handle someone presenting a dissenting idea, then yes, by your flawed definition you have wasted your discussion. also, you mispelled 'only talk with users who agree with you'
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/28 09:51:58
What I don't get ... even if I thought that masks fulfilled no purpose (I don't think that's the case, but just for the sake of argument) I would understand that not wearing one when indoors would cause consternation to other people.
So, I would wear it just out of sense of common courtesy.
I would view it in the same way as not chatting or looking at my phone in a cinema, not taking photos in a tourist hot-spot cathedral because a sign asked me not to, being polite to the call centre guy who is calling me to sell car insurance even though I don't need it.
There are things we do just out of having manners, being a gentleman or whatever you call it, that allow societies of people to function without it descending into loss of civility.
For me, it's not just an ignorance around information of the use of masks, it's respect for other people (especially in this case - as they could actually save someone else's life) and I think not doing it says a lot about you as a person.
Well for QAR it's just that only thing in the world matters is what is good for HIM. He's the kind that if he gains even little he would sacrifice millions of lives.
He doesn't want to take even slight inconvenience as it's inconveniencing HIM.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/28 10:26:20
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I’d also question exactly how long people are wearing their masks for,
I work at an automotive dealership, so basically, when i'm on the clock I'm wearing one. . . . Really, theres only 2 main discomforts: my ears where the little straps go, and the combination heat/humidity of my breath being slowed by the mask. The thing that really grinds my gears at work (and those of my department mates), is when someone who spends 95% of their day in a room with AC so cold that they are wearing jackets comes over to my department (we're one of the only ones in the entire 3 dealership company without AC) complaining about how hot the masks are.
For the ear thing, have you seen what I can only term "ear savers." (I'm sure they have a proper name.)
They're basically a strap with a hook at each end, they go around the back of your head and you attach the mask to the hooks, rather than your ears, keeping the mask secure but taking the pressure of your ears. IIRC people were making them at home out of plastic milk bottles in the early days for the NHS over here, there were pictures everywhere.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I’d also question exactly how long people are wearing their masks for,
I work alternate weeks in the office and at home. Masks are mandatory in the office, so I wear it continuously from 9 to 5.30 aside from when I'm eating my lunch.
Ensis Ferrae wrote: Really, theres only 2 main discomforts: my ears where the little straps go
If you don't know someone who can printout the ear savers listed below, send me a PM, I think I have a little bit of PetG left and can run off a few more and mail you them. I must have printed a thousand of those by now to donate out around here.
Barring that, you can substitute out a large safety pin if your straps are long enough.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/28 15:09:26
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
I work at an automotive dealership, so basically, when i'm on the clock I'm wearing one. . . . Really, theres only 2 main discomforts: my ears where the little straps go, and the combination heat/humidity of my breath being slowed by the mask. The thing that really grinds my gears at work (and those of my department mates), is when someone who spends 95% of their day in a room with AC so cold that they are wearing jackets comes over to my department (we're one of the only ones in the entire 3 dealership company without AC) complaining about how hot the masks are.
Have you looked into the masks that are made for athletic use? That might help with the heat/breathing aspect.
For the ear straps, I've seen some people wearing masks that use a big velcro strap going around the back of the head. I don't know how comfortable that might be, though.
"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me." - Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks
Haven't had issues with the ears myself, even wearing a mask for multiple hours during work. The heat/humidity is bothersome though, and how my breath gets funneled onto my eyes if I haven't adjusted it right. But I figure part of living is putting up with annoyances and masks are pretty minor.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: So, now I’ve read about that guy who lost most of his fingers to Covid-19.
Yeah, I’m not treating like t’s just the flu.
Well it is a respiratory virus so it makes perfect sense that it would cause you to lose fingers...There are credible studies that show in rare cases Covid can cause an increased risk of stroke. First time I'm hearing about appendage losses.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
NinthMusketeer wrote: Haven't had issues with the ears myself, even wearing a mask for multiple hours during work. The heat/humidity is bothersome though, and how my breath gets funneled onto my eyes if I haven't adjusted it right. But I figure part of living is putting up with annoyances and masks are pretty minor.
You get used to wearing it. I have no issue wearing it. I am more concerned about mental health. Distancing / fearing of contact /' covering of faces. This is all bound to cause an already stressed population to deteriorate in mental health. It is very hard to collect data on this too but it can not be ignored.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tneva82 wrote: Well for QAR it's just that only thing in the world matters is what is good for HIM. He's the kind that if he gains even little he would sacrifice millions of lives.
He doesn't want to take even slight inconvenience as it's inconveniencing HIM.
That is an insane accusation. A person wanting to walk freely in public without covering their face is not a selfish act - it is in fact quite normal and has been normal the entirety of human history - unless it was part of some kind of religious requirement (I bet you disagree with that one too). What good do you think it does to shame a person in this way anyways?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/28 16:51:43
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
BobtheInquisitor wrote: So, now I’ve read about that guy who lost most of his fingers to Covid-19.
Yeah, I’m not treating like t’s just the flu.
Well it is a respiratory virus so it makes perfect sense that it would cause you to lose fingers...There are credible studies that show in rare cases Covid can cause an increased risk of stroke. First time I'm hearing about appendage losses.
Blood clots are why, it can cause numerous blood clots.
No clear reason why it causes blood clots yet, but its known it does, which can lead to amputation.
Pacific wrote: What I don't get ... even if I thought that masks fulfilled no purpose (I don't think that's the case, but just for the sake of argument) I would understand that not wearing one when indoors would cause consternation to other people.
So, I would wear it just out of sense of common courtesy.
I would view it in the same way as not chatting or looking at my phone in a cinema, not taking photos in a tourist hot-spot cathedral because a sign asked me not to, being polite to the call centre guy who is calling me to sell car insurance even though I don't need it.
There are things we do just out of having manners, being a gentleman or whatever you call it, that allow societies of people to function without it descending into loss of civility.
For me, it's not just an ignorance around information of the use of masks, it's respect for other people (especially in this case - as they could actually save someone else's life) and I think not doing it says a lot about you as a person.
The problem is that a lot of people don't use them correctly or even where they do they don't act in a responsible way. Being pushed past very closely by those wearing masks etc. The risk is that masks and face coverings make people think they are immune and act inappropriately (the UK promotes this position by allowing closer contact with people) and it is madness. The benefit from face coverings come from less particles being transmitted directly in front of that person by 90%. That is 10% of particles (which is still a lot leaking out) and yet we don't know what viral load is needed to be infected. In addition they generate significant jets to the side and rear. See this research:- https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/2005/2005.10720.pdf for example in the conclusion:-
"Conversely, surgical and hand-made masks, and face shields, generate significant leakage jets that have the potential to disperse virus-laden fluid particles by several metres. The different nature of the masks and shields makes the direction of these jets difficult to be predicted, but the directionality of these jets should be a main design consideration for these covers. They all showed an intense backward jet for heavy breathing and coughing conditions. It is important to be aware of this jet, to avoid a false sense of security that may arise when standing to the side of, or behind, a person wearing a surgical, or handmade mask, or shield. For example, if some wearers of surgical masks turn their face to the side when they cough, there is a risk that this side or backward jet is directed closer to a person standing in front of the wearer".
There is even more scary stuff that these may then hit thermal plumes from the body and then lifted back to face height etc. As such reducing social distancing on the basis that masks are the answer is a recipe for the virus to spread even though those masks are being worn because of the psychology of feeling safe. That's not an argument against them but more an argument that they aren't some magic safety net that they are advertised as. Yes there is some anecdotal evidence (e.g. the Prague articles above) but it is difficult to attribute the impact from one such instance and risks misidentifying "cause and effect" (for example the weather might have changed to very hot and dry etc etc). That is why large scale statistical samples need to be taken. Without these then it is easy to point to such an event as the 'cure' but without recognising other factors and then we all stand around wondering why cases are suddenly escalating again as they are doing again in most European countries including the UK (at differing rates). To be honest I'd prefer someone to not wear a mask and stay at least 2m away than have some push past with a mask on (and hence why I recommend avoiding shops and areas where people congregate as much as possible).
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
Easy E wrote: This same old argument again. I guess the oldies are the goodies.
QAR- How do you feel about No Shoes, No Shirt, No Service signs at stores? Are they a violation of your freedoms or some sort of indoctrination to obedience?
And I see you've dragged out that old tired counterargument. But no.
Stores as private enterprises, can implement whatever policies they like. I, am objecting to the GOVERNMENT mandating what I must do.
Edit- Never mind. It is not worth it. It is like discussing RAW vs. RAI. There are no winners. Only losers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/28 18:32:42
Support Blood and Spectacles Publishing:
https://www.patreon.com/Bloodandspectaclespublishing
Easy E wrote: This same old argument again. I guess the oldies are the goodies.
QAR- How do you feel about No Shoes, No Shirt, No Service signs at stores? Are they a violation of your freedoms or some sort of indoctrination to obedience?
And I see you've dragged out that old tired counterargument. But no.
Stores as private enterprises, can implement whatever policies they like. I, am objecting to the GOVERNMENT mandating what I must do.
Are you opposed to the Government using Dept of Health to force hand washing of employees in the food industry?
I for one am sick of the lack of anarchy, and Polio in this country.
Not Online!!! wrote:I will ignore the rather condesecending tone and chalk up the rather instantanious skip from General scepticism of government to instantly
putting people into the conspiracysphere on cultural difference.
News Flash: there are countries with cultures that baseline feel that Central power of government is inherently dangerous due to accumulation of power, REGARDLESS what the action of the Central government is. These put the onus into the capability of their citizens to Act themselves and the lower regional Levels.
The only question then is the question of legitimate implementation respectively if the Central authorithy has a right to Act at that instance and that entirely depends how entrenched that specific culture is and how the decision process worked and therefore was legitimate enough in it's execution. And nothing, absolutely nothing with conspiracy nutjobery.
I know that different cultures have different levels of comfort when it comes government authority but one has to be cognisant of what the government is actually asking for (masks). I'd think some degree of proportionality should considered when it comes to one's skepticism instead of absolute scepticism of everything. If one literally has a knee jerk reaction about every government action without evaluating its worth (the "REGARDLESS what the action of the Central government is" bit) then it does feel on the conspiratorial side of the spectrum to me.
How do people who are so sceptical of the government and simple cloth masks feel about traffic laws? Do people fight those all the time on principle (those are usually set above the local level) or have they evaluated their worth and identified them as an acceptable trade-off between individual freedom and central control? If one can do that with traffic laws—and be at peace—then one should be able to consider that the government asking for masks while the pandemic is partying it up is also a worthy tradeoff for now.
Or is this simply about the process? Sceptical if the central government does it but okay if done on a lower level and then (automatically) okay?
queen_annes_revenge wrote:Ah yes, the old 'its not to stop you getting it, it's to stop it if you have it'.. because a piece of old t shirt stretched over your mouth will let virus in, but not out... I see everyone conveniently ignored my pointing out of Spain's new rise in cases, despite masks being mandatory in all public spaces, including outside.
That piece of cloth reduces the range of how far you expelled breath can go quickly. That means infected microdroplets in the air your exhaled have a lower chance of infecting others. It's lowers the chance of infections and can't solve the problem completely. It why you don't cough into people's faces but for breathing in general. It doesn't stop the virus but it slows down its transport layer, so to speak.
Not Online!!! wrote:it's less about the enforcement and more about the principle, which indeed , does set a rather dangerous precedent in behavoural patterns, including a predisposed obedience without room for questioning.
And I'd say that type of reasoning about behavioural patterns and obedience is removed from reality when it comes to wearing simple cloth masks in public. It's not like they are forcing citizens to drag non-mask-wearers off the streets or establish an surveillance state. It's a simple need to help reduce infections. I really wonder how people who worry about that being some governmental scheme even live their regular lives when you consider all the other laws and restrictions that apply every day in civilised society? I imagine that as an adult one can distinguish the difference between the government asking for something simple—like wearing masks—and an actual slide into authoritarianism. And also where one's fundamental ideals in regard to personal freedoms and everybody's (hopefully short term) practical needs intersect when it comes to cloth masks and how that simply shouldn't be a big deal for a functioning adult human being.
But I also wonder why people with that type of conspiratorial adjacent thinking don't jump on the chance to wear a mask? After all they actually help against facial recognition tech. And wouldn't that be useful to actually escape that type of real surveillance tech that's being used in practice? One doesn't even need to imagine something about it in the potential future. Surveillance cameras are actually being used around us in everyday life.
queen_annes_revenge wrote:As for the folks who say 'its just a mask' 'its just a minor inconvenience' I say, well 4 Months ago it was 'its just a few weeks of lockdown' 'its just fines for folks who don't obey' 'its just a few more weeks' 'just until we get the R rate down' 'just mandatory masks on public transport' 'just mandatory masks in all shops'... Where does it stop? At the start it was flatten the curve. Well how damn flat does it need to be? The goalposts keep moving. The restrictions keep creeping.
Because four months ago people didn't take it seriously and a lot of places got a bunch of people infected. If people were wearing masks, kept a distance of 2 to 3 metres, and kept clean then things would have been better four months ago but they didn't and thus we got the situation we had. Look at the stats for daily new cases:
Stuff's looking really good because measures were implemented (or as you call it: the government restricting your rights) that seemed to have worked. And if things keep going that way then at some point it will be possible to safely ease restrictions. If people don't take it seriously now and start getting lazy about it then the numbers might increase again and you end up needing to implement harsher restrictions again. Look at the curve of the Chech Republic as an example:
After they mandates face coverings the numbers started to fall, and once they lifted restrictions numbers started to rise again (kinda with about a month of delay after policy changes in either direction):
You don't want to relax restrictions when it looks safer but when it looks safe enough. There's a difference. That's why restrictions keep on being extended. People are being idiots and "feel safe enough" because some numbers fall a bit and they think that's all that needed.
And all the while no good news is ever shown on TV. The low infection rate, the low death rate. The fact that the NHS never got anywhere near being overwhelmed, the fact that at peak there were about 4000 people on ventilators, and now there are sub 200. And still no recovered rates, despite being promised by beginning of June, and if anything slightly positive can't avoid being shown, they immediately follow it with the obligatory banging of the 'second wave' drum. Well where is this second wave? We've had at least 4, 5 events that the doomsayers claimed would herald it...
All the good news you listed happened because people were doing their part. Once that stops the good news will start to turn into bad news again and you get a whole cycle of where you need to increase restrictions because people started partying too early.
Reasoning like yours is mind bending. Like an impatient kid who's wants that cookie, eats the too hot cookie, burns their mouth, and then complains that eating cooled cookies now hurts and and how waiting until their mouth heals is a restriction of their rights. Then by the time they are healed, there's a new batch of hot cookies and everything repeats :/
We started easing restrictions almost 2 months ago. No increase in cases. Masks were made mandatory in shops 3 days ago. Correlation between mask mandates and case numbers does not prove causation in any way.
What restriction were eased two months ago? I don't know how the UK has been handling things. I remember being surprised when somebody from the UK mentioned some changes a while back but I can't remember any details about that.
I would actually be cross with my government if they did not mandate masks--that sort of public-health regulation is exactly what I voted them into office for. If they aren't going to do that, to me they are not doing their jobs. And I AM cross with the White House for its worse-than-inaction for so long on the matter. The situation in the US is undoubtedly far worse than it needed to be, and there are a whole lot of people dead because of it. Hopefully it will be taken as a wake up call and in the future the US will be better prepared to deal with a pandemic.
Not Online!!! wrote:I will ignore the rather condesecending tone and chalk up the rather instantanious skip from General scepticism of government to instantly
putting people into the conspiracysphere on cultural difference.
News Flash: there are countries with cultures that baseline feel that Central power of government is inherently dangerous due to accumulation of power, REGARDLESS what the action of the Central government is. These put the onus into the capability of their citizens to Act themselves and the lower regional Levels.
The only question then is the question of legitimate implementation respectively if the Central authorithy has a right to Act at that instance and that entirely depends how entrenched that specific culture is and how the decision process worked and therefore was legitimate enough in it's execution. And nothing, absolutely nothing with conspiracy nutjobery.
I know that different cultures have different levels of comfort when it comes government authority but one has to be cognisant of what the government is actually asking for (masks). I'd think some degree of proportionality should considered when it comes to one's skepticism instead of absolute scepticism of everything. If one literally has a knee jerk reaction about every government action without evaluating its worth (the "REGARDLESS what the action of the Central government is" bit) then it does feel on the conspiratorial side of the spectrum to me.
Ohh boi, so therefore we swiss are all conspirational nutjobs, because you know, there's a little thing called federalism and subsidiarity, local government local solutions, local law enforcement, local baseline add ons to laws to specifically handle law due to local circumstance. We did so since , well some 700 years, and we don't like someone sitting in bern telling me in Schwyz how i have to run my police,or my firemen, or my building restrictions beyond the most basic baseline, which is only made into legal federal law through extensive voting and compromissial effort.
Emergency state bypasses that, there's just an issue, the process to even form a cohesive federal state is dependant upon this decision making process, else there is a nasty habit called unrest. Which is incidentally why the federal government has massively avoided to interfere with Kantons and is even restricted to it's core competencies by the constitution.
How do people who are so sceptical of the government and simple cloth masks feel about traffic laws? Do people fight those all the time on principle (those are usually set above the local level) or have they evaluated their worth and identified them as an acceptable trade-off between individual freedom and central control? If one can do that with traffic laws—and be at peace—then one should be able to consider that the government asking for masks while the pandemic is partying it up is also a worthy tradeoff for now.
Traffic law is dependant on type of street or infrastructure for us, some beeing the realm of the federal goernment most the realm of Kantons, which organise often seperately from the federal government on baselines and cooperations between Cantons.
And yes, people fight those all the time, locally, in democratic processes with votes on policy making, ranging from Municipal level to kanton to Federal Central government.
Sharing the power is necessary for the stability of my Country, the more local adminstrations can handle the less issues you get .
Or is this simply about the process? Sceptical if the central government does it but okay if done on a lower level and then (automatically) okay?
Process and legitimisation via democratic process, OR if handled technocratically, ergo this crisis, then via as local level as possible in order to avoid upsetting certain Kantons and their population.
There's nothing conspirational the scepticism torwards central authorithy if it takes actions bypassing the process of legitimisation over here, as it would do would the central government declare mandatory mask duty overall.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/28 20:54:22
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
) is that there are groups interested in spreading harmful nonsense and misinformation to help the virus spread and kill as many people as possible. Apocalyptic religious death cults, radical eco-terrorists, great culling advocates - we know such freaks exist for real, so why not on the internet, why not on this site?
)
6000 pts - Harlies: 1000 pts - 
4000 pts - 
1000 pts - 
1000 pts 
Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children 
5000pts 
6000pts 
3000pts
