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 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 nathan2004 wrote:
That was a longggg time ago, wonder why you sit on it for this long?

Well, the updated Castellan Crowe model was already done like, what, 5-6 years before it's reveal? As confirmed by the guy who painted it. So GW sits on some things for a good while for various reasons.

"About two years" is what they (infernalbrush) said.

I wouldn't sell it short for a WE or EC Codex. The mortal additions for the AoS marked factions have been brilliant IMO and the Death Guard range has been excellent as well. Remember a lot of stuff will just be Khorne/Slaanesh versions of basic CSM units with hopefully very little porting (cos porting is boring).
I think we'd see something quite expansive along the lines of:

 Gert wrote:
I wouldn't sell it short for a WE or EC Codex. The mortal additions for the AoS marked factions have been brilliant IMO and the Death Guard range has been excellent as well. Remember a lot of stuff will just be Khorne/Slaanesh versions of basic CSM units with hopefully very little porting (cos porting is boring).

I wouldn't either. They can do so much for CSM because the sculpts can always be amazing. But if they are pressed for time and cannot do so because there are so many other codex also waiting to be released. Then like I said, they can make do with a more limited release of new kits and then go from there.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Well, my view is that if GW can release Tsons as a book of its own with such a small unit range, then they can very do that with either Emperor's children or World Eaters. It all depends on their whim and fancy really.


Emperor's Children can be done too. At a bare minimum they just need to have a new Noise Marine kit. To be honest, I don't think Noise terminators have been a big part of what defines Emperor's Children. Its mainly just the noise marines. Maybe release a new Emperor's Children Character kit and we are done. It doesn't even have to be Fulgrim.

The Sonic Dreadnought is more important for Emperors Children, Sonic Terminators were only in 3.5 and a Apocalypse data sheet. At least the Dreadnought is still legends.

 Sersi wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Well, my view is that if GW can release Tsons as a book of its own with such a small unit range, then they can very do that with either Emperor's children or World Eaters. It all depends on their whim and fancy really.


Emperor's Children can be done too. At a bare minimum they just need to have a new Noise Marine kit. To be honest, I don't think Noise terminators have been a big part of what defines Emperor's Children. Its mainly just the noise marines. Maybe release a new Emperor's Children Character kit and we are done. It doesn't even have to be Fulgrim.

The Sonic Dreadnought is more important for Emperors Children, Sonic Terminators were only in 3.5 and a Apocalypse data sheet. At least the Dreadnought is still legends.

That's incorrect; Sonic Terminators predate 3.5. Noise Marine Terminators existed both in the 3rd edition IA: EC and also as an optional upgrade for Chaos Terminators in the 2nd edition Codex: CSM.

Each of the cult legions should receive a power armoured and terminator-armoured troops choice; EC are no different.

Can we just get Zerkers riding Juggers please if we are wishlisting lol. But seriously got them in fantasy, why not 40k? Are bloodletters the only ones that can tame them?

 Marshal Loss wrote:
By far the most bizarre rumour yet:

Ok here is a weird one...

Greater possessed are supposedly not in the codex

Regular possessed
S5 t5 w3 5a

So either the greater possessed sculpts are going to be used as normal possessed

Either these playtester ruleset he has is something special

Or maybe hes trying to blurr the line because of all the attention this is getting. My info was on Valrak and spikey bits, so weve gobe full on mainstream.

Was there not a rumour of a cultist possessed mutant model in a previous leak? Could this be the confusion over new statline?

Not an explanation for the missing GP though - perhaps they're a unit upgrade now or something or maybe leaker just missed them. *shrugs*

 Gert wrote:
Seems perfectly coherent to me but sure.

Yeah, okay, that's fair and I appreciate the genuine response to my quip.

I mean, there was that time when GW was really into DLC and would make horrible little "codexes" that consisted of a tiny portion of a faction split into its own book, like a couple entries. And there are any number of chapter approved books or similar pieces in which extremely little is useable for a given faction, but I don't think you're asking about anthology rulebooks. No, I can't think of a time in which a portion of a codex was transferred wholesale to another standard codex and the original one could only take exactly those entries in the new one.

I would say that the closest thing is the current inquisition mechanics which work just terribly with allies or whatever they're called now and de facto means that for instance a sisters of battle or grey knight army can take exactly one model from a codex at a time without breaking faction bonuses, unless there's been some new mechanic that allows this now.

IDK, GW has done a lot of scummy things with how it's broken up armies or eliminated options only to bring them back in another form elsewhere, and I don't make a huge distinction between "this was in your book, but now it's in another thing that you need to buy, and that thing also has rules for new things for you to buy" and the same thing but preventing you from buying other things in that anthology, vs. the same thing but preventing you from buying other things in that codex. To me, they're still splitting up books so you can pay more for them.

 nathan2004 wrote:
Can we just get Zerkers riding Juggers please if we are wishlisting lol. But seriously got them in fantasy, why not 40k? Are bloodletters the only ones that can tame them?

I second this. I have the old brick, lump of metal one from early 3rd edition that I'd like to field again. It's an iconic Khorne unit that has roots in the history of 40k, and we all know that GW is all about nostalgia these days.

 cuda1179 wrote:

 nathan2004 wrote:
Can we just get Zerkers riding Juggers please if we are wishlisting lol. But seriously got them in fantasy, why not 40k? Are bloodletters the only ones that can tame them?

I second this. I have the old brick, lump of metal one from early 3rd edition that I'd like to field again. It's an iconic Khorne unit that has roots in the history of 40k, and we all know that GW is all about nostalgia these days.

I third this. I use the blood crusher plastic models and swop out the blood letters for chaos space marine models instead.

I was just hoping we can include Bloodletters & Crushers as part of a WE detachment so I can run mine side by side without CP penalty.

I really hope that these are fake. I love the narrative ideas of how certain Cult Marines could fit in to the philosophies of the other Legions, and this would ruin that. Also, only letting core units take marks? Again, more fun stripped out.

 Gert wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Ok my turn. Write the question again and actually write it coherently this time if no one got it.

Seems perfectly coherent to me but sure.

When has GW ever written a Codex (A), removed a unit/units and placed them into a separate Codex (B), and indicated that said unit/units that are now in Codex B can still be used in a list taken from Codex A but not a single other unit from Codex B, forcing you to buy Codex B for potentially a single unit.
For example, removing Plague Marines from Codex: Chaos Space Marines, placing them into Codex: Death Guard, and saying CSM can still take Plague Marines but not any other unit from DG and you have to buy Codex: DG to use Plague Marines.
When has this ever happened?

If this seems like a very confusing and stupid question, that's because it is. It is the situation that Kid_Kyoto said they believed was something GW would do and I'm a little bit tired of people just making up BS to be mad about.

Didn't this basically happen via telling Death Guard and Thousand Sons players they can still use their Obliterators or Warp Talons or Chosen and all that crap, and all they have to do is take a different detachment from thr CSM Codex and give them the correct mark?

 Marshal Loss wrote:

 Sersi wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Well, my view is that if GW can release Tsons as a book of its own with such a small unit range, then they can very do that with either Emperor's children or World Eaters. It all depends on their whim and fancy really.


Emperor's Children can be done too. At a bare minimum they just need to have a new Noise Marine kit. To be honest, I don't think Noise terminators have been a big part of what defines Emperor's Children. Its mainly just the noise marines. Maybe release a new Emperor's Children Character kit and we are done. It doesn't even have to be Fulgrim.

The Sonic Dreadnought is more important for Emperors Children, Sonic Terminators were only in 3.5 and a Apocalypse data sheet. At least the Dreadnought is still legends.

That's incorrect; Sonic Terminators predate 3.5. Noise Marine Terminators existed both in the 3rd edition IA: EC and also as an optional upgrade for Chaos Terminators in the 2nd edition Codex: CSM.

Each of the cult legions should receive a power armoured and terminator-armoured troops choice; EC are no different.

Well...they say the memory goes with age, and it's been a very long time since I've pulled out the second edition codex. For the record though I'd prefer Noise Marines, Noise Terminators, and Sonic Dreadnought.

Using GW's past behavior to justify or refute the potential of GW's future behavior is asinine and pedantic.

GW is an ethereal being that does not obey the laws of business strategy or customer goodwill. They do what they will and speak models into being that simultaneously are brand new and also ten years old. When they write rules, they consult with the Galactic Council, whose minds only perceive vague half-truths and nothing else. Every 6 months they must sacrifice 100 thesaurus, 4 lawyers, and 22 pounds of raw gold to restructure the entire company, making past trends obsolete and new trends law, but only for the next 6 months.

Either way, these rumors are starting to get more and more sus. Greater Possessed are massive character models.

I'm also still surprised we have so much info about all the legions except for Alpha Legion.

Yes, the solstice sacrifice, twice a year every year. Much fertility and market growth.

JWBS wrote:
Yes, the solstice sacrifice, twice a year every year. Much fertility and market growth.

Seems to be working for them so far, so I wouldn't blame them for continuing.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
For all the wailing about the loadout for Termies- When I bought my box it came with enough Lightning Claws that each of mine could have 2 of them. Granted I only had 1 heavy weapon (a hvy flamer) but that's what I wanted anyway. How did I do this? I bought the Cataphract box. As far as CSM go there are only Terminators so the various armor types are style choices and nothing else. Also, since Catapharact armor was around during the 30K wars it's thematic to have some in your army if you play with that back story.

Yeah. You bought 2nd box. Which means in GW's current design parameters odds are very, very, very good you won't be able to field 5 terminators with all lightning claws as that won't be option as it's not in the box

Ask DG how fun it was when their loadouts were invalidated because box didn't come enough without buying more boxes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
H.B.M.C. - No, I do not think that the complaints are unfounded. In fact I stated the exact same complaint in a thread when the chosen were previewed. I'm merely pointing out that there are options out there and GW should consider that there are other Terminator Box sets out there that are applicable to CSM. This is in contrast to how many box sets there are of Plague Marine Terminators (1). Do I believe that they did consider that? No, but they should have.

Options to get more isn't exactly much help if GW prevents the loadouts...

In case you have been living under the rock during 9th ed GW has been moving more and more what's in box is what's legal. Not every unit but a lot. Box has only 2 pairs of lightning claws for 5 models? 2 models can field pair of lightning claws. Not 3. Not 4. Def not 5.

 nathan2004 wrote:
Can we just get Zerkers riding Juggers please if we are wishlisting lol. But seriously got them in fantasy, why not 40k? Are bloodletters the only ones that can tame them?

I suspect the problem isn't that Bloodletters are the only ones that can tame them, but getting the Berserkers to hold fire on the Kill! Maim! Burn! long enough to find/capture/tame (or earn the respect of, as I don't know how sentient a Juggernaut is meant to be) one of these Daemonic steeds...

 Dysartes wrote:

 nathan2004 wrote:
Can we just get Zerkers riding Juggers please if we are wishlisting lol. But seriously got them in fantasy, why not 40k? Are bloodletters the only ones that can tame them?

I suspect the problem isn't that Bloodletters are the only ones that can tame them, but getting the Berserkers to hold fire on the Kill! Maim! Burn! long enough to find/capture/tame (or earn the respect of, as I don't know how sentient a Juggernaut is meant to be) one of these Daemonic steeds...

When it comes to mortals, daemonic mounts are granted as gifts, not wild beasts needing to be tamed.

IIRC it's not that straightforward, a Champion may receive the gift but that doesn't mean said gift will be instantly loyal or serviceable. Daemonic beasts aren't just going to sit and roll over, a Champion will still have to break them into and bind them to their will. It's not so much taming as beating into submission.

 Gert wrote:

Seems perfectly coherent to me but sure.

When has GW ever written a Codex (A), removed a unit/units and placed them into a separate Codex (B), and indicated that said unit/units that are now in Codex B can still be used in a list taken from Codex A but not a single other unit from Codex B, forcing you to buy Codex B for potentially a single unit.
For example, removing Plague Marines from Codex: Chaos Space Marines, placing them into Codex: Death Guard, and saying CSM can still take Plague Marines but not any other unit from DG and you have to buy Codex: DG to use Plague Marines.
When has this ever happened?

If this seems like a very confusing and stupid question, that's because it is. It is the situation that Kid_Kyoto said they believed was something GW would do and I'm a little bit tired of people just making up BS to be mad about.

My 4th/5th edition Nurgle-themed Chaos army had plague marines, obliterators and daemons. They are now in 3 different books each costing $50.

My 3rd/4th Daemon Hunters had Inquisitors, Grey Knights and Inquisition Storm Troopers. They are now in 3 different books each costing $50. I think it's 4 books if I include the assassins.

I have no difficulty imagining Chaos Space Marines being divided into 5 books (4 gods and undivided) each costing $50 to replace a single book.

 Gert wrote:
IIRC it's not that straightforward, a Champion may receive the gift but that doesn't mean said gift will be instantly loyal or serviceable. Daemonic beasts aren't just going to sit and roll over, a Champion will still have to break them into and bind them to their will. It's not so much taming as beating into submission.

Except traditionally, that is exactly what it's been like. Arbaal never needed to break the Hound of Khorne. Archaon having to break Dorghar was even made a big deal because Dorghar isn't gifted, he needs to be stolen and broken as part of the testing for an Everchosen.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

My 4th/5th edition Nurgle-themed Chaos army had plague marines, obliterators and daemons. They are now in 3 different books each costing $50.

Couple things I'm noticing from my own research/experience:
1 - Plague Marines and Obliterators are still in the same book and that book also contains the rules for Plague Bearers. The only thing you don't have is explicit rules for using the army as Death Guard and the wider Daemon roster.
2 - I may be remembering incorrectly as it has been some time since I played 5th Ed, but having owned and used Daemons in 5th with their 4th Ed Codex, you couldn't take CSM in the army rather you could only ally with them. From what I can tell, the CSM Codex was the same.
3 - Even without addressing the two above points, you cannot take Obliterators or Daemons in a Death Guard army and there is absolutely nothing from GW that says you can. Your examples don't even fit the hypothetical you created.

My 3rd/4th Daemon Hunters had Inquisitors, Grey Knights and Inquisition Storm Troopers. They are now in 3 different books each costing $50. I think it's 4 books if I include the assassins.

Grey Knights are in their own Codex and the rules for Inquisition units are in one of the Octarius books. That's 2.
And once again, the only limitation on Inquisition units in a Grey Knights army is that you can only take one Inquisitor and one Henchmen unit.

You posited that GW would remove the Cult units from the CSM Codex then force players to buy the Cult Legion Codexes to use those units in a CSM army and then couldn't come up with a single example of when something like that has ever happened. Fake outrage much?

tneva82 wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
For all the wailing about the loadout for Termies- When I bought my box it came with enough Lightning Claws that each of mine could have 2 of them. Granted I only had 1 heavy weapon (a hvy flamer) but that's what I wanted anyway. How did I do this? I bought the Cataphract box. As far as CSM go there are only Terminators so the various armor types are style choices and nothing else. Also, since Catapharact armor was around during the 30K wars it's thematic to have some in your army if you play with that back story.

Yeah. You bought 2nd box. Which means in GW's current design parameters odds are very, very, very good you won't be able to field 5 terminators with all lightning claws as that won't be option as it's not in the box

Ask DG how fun it was when their loadouts were invalidated because box didn't come enough without buying more boxes.

No, I bought 1 box of cataphract terminators and that was it. GW made slightly more money due to the fact that Cataphract are direct order only but that's it. And, I agree that GW seems to be going the way of "only use what's in one box". I was just stating that GW sometimes offers more than one box for each unit (like in this instance) and as such, should look carefully at the options available to the players before restricting them. As to the current box if it has 4 claws then 4 models can use them. (Just be creative in changing a couple arms at the shoulder with some green stuff or such). Then your fifth model can use a chainfist.

drbored wrote:I'm also still surprised we have so much info about all the legions except for Alpha Legion.

Alpharius demands tactics stay secret and the Alpha Legion strikes from the shadows. Hydra Dominatus!

Kid_Kyoto wrote:My 4th/5th edition Nurgle-themed Chaos army had plague marines, obliterators and daemons. They are now in 3 different books each costing $50.

My 3rd/4th Daemon Hunters had Inquisitors, Grey Knights and Inquisition Storm Troopers. They are now in 3 different books each costing $50. I think it's 4 books if I include the assassins.

I have no difficulty imagining Chaos Space Marines being divided into 5 books (4 gods and undivided) each costing $50 to replace a single book.

We're to the point CSM have a book, each of the Cult Legions (minus ECs) have a book, Daemons have a book, Chaos Knights have a book, and, if rumors are to be believed, Renegade Guard could get their own book this year.

I have the Death Guard and Thousand Sons Codexes, I will be buying any new Codexes that are released this year. At the same time, the value I expect to get out of each individually is low.

Imagine if all these books were to be released over the next 12 months and GW announced 10th edition in June 2023. You'd have less than 12 months playing time with the complete collection using the edition they were made for.

Such is the fate of all things Chaos.

 Gert wrote:
I may be remembering incorrectly as it has been some time since I played 5th Ed, but having owned and used Daemons in 5th with their 4th Ed Codex, you couldn't take CSM in the army rather you could only ally with them. From what I can tell, the CSM Codex was the same.?

there was no dedicated Daemon Codex until late 5th Edition (you could not play a pure Daemon Army until that) and CSM had generic Daemons in their 5th Edi Codex so you could always use them there

Chaos Daemons was May 2008 and 4th Ed ended in July 2008. 4th Ed CSM was released 7 months prior to Daemons in September 2007.

CSM couldn't ally with Daemons and there was no system for it until 6th. The books also exercised much of any reference to either faction (there is almost no mention of specific Daemons in the 4th ed CSM book, and there are I think *two* references to Chaos Space Marines in the Chaos Daemons book).

Daemons were in the CSM book, but only in the form of generic 'Greater' and 'Lesser' Daemons.

The CSM book remains one of the worst books every released. Incredibly bland.

Incidentally, talk of dedicated books for Death Guard and Thousand Sons began around the time the 4th ed CSM book came out. I recall the White Dwarf released around the same time discussing it. Obviously it didn't happen till you know, much later on, but it's clear the concept for divvying up Chaos into multiple sub-factions.

 blood reaper wrote:
CSM couldn't ally with Daemons and there was no system for it until 6th. The books also exercised much of any reference to either faction (there is almost no mention of specific Daemons in the 4th ed CSM book, and there are I think *two* references to Chaos Space Marines in the Chaos Daemons book).

Daemons were in the CSM book, but only in the form of generic 'Greater' and 'Lesser' Daemons.

The CSM book remains one of the worst books every released. Incredibly bland.

Incidentally, talk of dedicated books for Death Guard and Thousand Sons began around the time the 4th ed CSM book came out. I recall the White Dwarf released around the same time discussing it. Obviously it didn't happen till you know, much later on, but it's clear the concept for divvying up Chaos into multiple sub-factions.

Yeah, then the whole idea of supplements came out in 6th edition iirc? We saw Iyanden and Khorne Daemonkin, and of course a million Space Marine chapters each get their own supplement.

Like HBMC said, GW is consistently inconsistent. They have made separate Space Wolves books for decades only to demote them to Supplement standard while keeping Death Guard and Thousand Sons separate.

IMO, I'd rather Chaos Marines got that sort of treatment. Here's the core list of all the stuff that heretics and chaos marine renegades can take in Codex: Chaos Space Marines, and then here's 5 supplements: EC, DG, WE, TS, and Red Corsairs/Renegades to expand those options. Then, just like how Space Marines have it, you no longer have to worry about updating 20 datasheets every time you want to print a book, you keep all that core stuff in, with a few caveats (TS cannot take Khorne, Slaanesh, Nurgle units, etc) and bang, you've got it.

I bet, though, that much like the Space Marines that got some supplements in 8th and some in 9th, they're likely waiting on Chaos Marines to have all of the various options done (WE and EC) before shaking the boat too much. I'm reminded of a rumor (iirc from Valrak) that suggested that there was a 25 year plan to release all the Primarchs in plastic, and that the timer for that began when Magnus came out. I think from that same rumor came the idea that GW is working on redoing everything with a Rhino chassis, but that could have been in regards to moving rhino-chassis things in 30k to plastic. Either way, there's a lot that needs to be done to get Chaos Marines to be cohesive in design philosophy, model scale, and options, and 'complete' at least to the measure of having EC and WE have their Codexes, primarchs, and specialized options. It's a long road ahead.

Getting those updated Possessed and Bikers that were rumored would be a step in the right direction at least...