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drbored wrote: If the rumors are correct we are losing...
Freedom to equip Terminators with any combination of weapons.
Freedom to equip Chosen with any combination of weapons.
Jump packs for Chaos Lords and Sorcerers.
Lightning Claws for Aspiring Champions of many kinds.
Mutilators.
The ability to take up to 20 Chaos Marines in a unit.
And potentially the ability to take 2 special weapons or 2 heavy weapons in a Chaos Marine squad.
Don't forget they're taking our Cult units away as well... except Noise Marines, because they don't have a new model kit.
drbored wrote: If the rumors are correct we are losing...
Freedom to equip Terminators with any combination of weapons.
Freedom to equip Chosen with any combination of weapons.
Jump packs for Chaos Lords and Sorcerers.
Lightning Claws for Aspiring Champions of many kinds.
Mutilators.
The ability to take up to 20 Chaos Marines in a unit.
And potentially the ability to take 2 special weapons or 2 heavy weapons in a Chaos Marine squad.
Don't forget they're taking our Cult units away as well... except Noise Marines, because they don't have a new model kit.
Ah yes that too. By moving Death Guard, Khorne Berzerkers, and Rubric Marines, you now have to buy all the other codexes to jankily ally them in...
Yeah. It's... a bit rough to be a Chaos fan, but... I'm gunna keep painting my Night Lords because frankly I'm pretty happy with how they're coming out.
Dudeface wrote: I took it as partially satirical/sarcastic ranting tbh, maybe I was off tone via the medium of text.
Given the source, trust me, it was't.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Come to think of it, consolidating the various types of power weapon into one profile (among the few rumors I really like about this codex) is a great way to let squads be chaotic without hampering gameplay. Each member can have their own preferred method of beating things up in melee but it all 'averages out' to a single profile in abstract so that IRL games can be streamlined.
Personally, as a Chaos player who has done nothing but see his army slowly eroded since 2007, I'd rather not lose more of my options, especially when we know it derives from GW fumbling to find a solution* to squad options without giving us another Plague Marine-esque labyrinth of nonsense.
*A solution to a 'problem' that is only a problem because they made it a problem.
That gets into the nuance of which options are being lost. If consolidating power weapons back together is a loss, then by extension it was a gain that happened during the time period you mention. If it was not a significant gain, then it is also not a significant loss. If it was a significant gain, that undermines the core point made here (IMO it is the former). In my eyes the power weapon differentiation simply amounted to extra hoops of optimization needed to maintain functionality the models already had previously by picking whichever option is favored in the given edition. Perhaps more importantly all existing models and builds with them remain viable. The Plague Marine equivalent would be merging all of the disparate melee weapons into one 'accursed plague weapons' profile then letting players mix & match whichever ones they like the look of (leaving the bespoke weapon stats for Kill Team where such is appropriate) and I think we can all agree such would be an improvement.
That is a very different story to something like removing jump packs as an option for chaos lords or adding additional restrictions on how many of each weapon a squad can have.
I'm of a similar opinion. I can deal with Accursed Weapons, at least they open up modeling opportunities. But all of that other stuff that drbored and H.B.M.C outlined above? That's just not right. Sticking Chaos Terminators with restrictions on their ranged weapons, removing Cult Marines from the codex, and taking away the option of jump packs for Chaos Lords and Sorcerers is just another way to throw roadblocks in the way of CSM players trying to represent their own vision for the faction. And that's something we've had far more than enough of in our last 3 codexes.
H.B.M.C. wrote: We've seen the instructions for Terminators. There is a single melee weapon profile + fists + chainfists.
Same for Raptor Aspiring Champions. They've got the +1S, AP-3, D1 profile, and a power fist. Which makes me wonder if all Aspiring Champions will have the option of Accursed Weapons, or power fists. Or it could just be a power sword. Combi-weapons still completely up in the air, though.
H.B.M.C. wrote: We've seen the instructions for Terminators. There is a single melee weapon profile + fists + chainfists.
That only covers the datasheet for that specific not, not possible wargear options not on that datasheet. Or are we pretending 9th doesn't still have wargear lists?
I also have some small hope GW is smart/greedy enough to cash in on HH options for units.
drbored wrote: If the rumors are correct we are losing...
Freedom to equip Terminators with any combination of weapons.
Freedom to equip Chosen with any combination of weapons.
Jump packs for Chaos Lords and Sorcerers.
Lightning Claws for Aspiring Champions of many kinds.
Mutilators.
The ability to take up to 20 Chaos Marines in a unit.
And potentially the ability to take 2 special weapons or 2 heavy weapons in a Chaos Marine squad.
Don't forget they're taking our Cult units away as well... except Noise Marines, because they don't have a new model kit.
Ah yes that too. By moving Death Guard, Khorne Berzerkers, and Rubric Marines, you now have to buy all the other codexes to jankily ally them in...
Yeah. It's... a bit rough to be a Chaos fan, but... I'm gunna keep painting my Night Lords because frankly I'm pretty happy with how they're coming out.
9th Edition has just been disgusting so far. The splitting up of all the codex's and the incomplete core rulebook for me outline how greedy and disgusting GW is being about this. It's painfully obvious that the goal of 8th edition was to lure people into buying tons of units that are available in their codex's (for the time) by making them ridiculously overpowering, like the Khorne Berserkers fighting 2 or 3 times. I guarantee you a lot of new or even veteran chaos players started buying Khorne Berserkers because WOW they're so good in melee, and maybe even gotten closer to the Khorne faction as a result and now BAMM 9th edition drops and Khorne Berserkers are now in a different codex haha because GW is greedy af and wants EVERY penny they can get their filthy rat claws on. And this is coming from a player who has owned Khorne Berserkers ever since 5th Ed and now for the first time I will be buying a CSM codex without.....Berserkers. And possibly without any daemons as well. I gotta buy 3 codex's just so I can play the units I own. That's garbage and I don't care what excuse anyone can offer for that it's inexcusable trash. But it's alright, if I do get the CSM codex I'm stopping there. Not letting GW win, my daemons and Khorne Berserkers are going to the shelf for good now, I got enough anyway without them. No more foot slogging 30 Khorne Berserkers for me. It was just fun to do time to time, while holding objectives with the Legionaries.
Edit: they did the same thing to the Genestealer cults. You gotta buy the AM codex now if you wanna field your Leman Russ' and Brood Brothers, and maybe more.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/20 02:57:37
Are we also pretending that instruction sheets haven't had quite extensive weapon lists in the (very recent) past, containing the weapon options that come on the sprue, and that this one doesn't, fitting quite well with the rumours?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/05/20 03:02:21
I'd almost prefer that Aspiring Champions get to choose between "Power Fist" and "Accursed Weapon" since then I can give my Night Lords Lightning Claws and just say they're Accursed Weapons.
It's a weird sort of flexibility that lets me choose whatever style I want without worrying about which weapon option is the best.
Are we also pretending that instruction sheets haven't had quite extensive weapon lists in the (very recent) past, containing the weapon options that come on the sprue, and that this one doesn't, fitting quite well with the rumours?
No, what I'm doing is not jumping to conclusions because every other 9th ed codex has had a wargear list that most units have access to that isn't always the contents of the kit.
I admit I might be huffing the copium but as with every release until I see the codex pages I'm not letting myself get wound up about anything.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
drbored wrote: I'd almost prefer that Aspiring Champions get to choose between "Power Fist" and "Accursed Weapon" since then I can give my Night Lords Lightning Claws and just say they're Accursed Weapons.
It's a weird sort of flexibility that lets me choose whatever style I want without worrying about which weapon option is the best.
That's the kind of thing I'm hoping for honestly.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/20 03:16:14
ClockworkZion wrote: No, what I'm doing is not jumping to conclusions because every other 9th ed codex has had a wargear list that most units have access to that isn't always the contents of the kit.
It's not jumping to conclusions when we have strong rumours that have proven to be correct in most instances and then pictorial evidence to supports said rumours.
Are we also pretending that instruction sheets haven't had quite extensive weapon lists in the (very recent) past, containing the weapon options that come on the sprue, and that this one doesn't, fitting quite well with the rumours?
No, what I'm doing is not jumping to conclusions because every other 9th ed codex has had a wargear list that most units have access to that isn't always the contents of the kit.
I admit I might be huffing the copium but as with every release until I see the codex pages I'm not letting myself get wound up about anything.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
drbored wrote: I'd almost prefer that Aspiring Champions get to choose between "Power Fist" and "Accursed Weapon" since then I can give my Night Lords Lightning Claws and just say they're Accursed Weapons.
It's a weird sort of flexibility that lets me choose whatever style I want without worrying about which weapon option is the best.
That's the kind of thing I'm hoping for honestly.
It'd be one of the few *consistent* things that they'd have done
drbored wrote: I'd almost prefer that Aspiring Champions get to choose between "Power Fist" and "Accursed Weapon" since then I can give my Night Lords Lightning Claws and just say they're Accursed Weapons.
It's a weird sort of flexibility that lets me choose whatever style I want without worrying about which weapon option is the best.
Yeah, like I said, that's something that I can deal with. But it doesn't address the other options, like combi-weapons. Those have been an option for Aspiring Champions for a long time, and it looks like the only "official" Chaos combi-weapons will be available in the Chosen and Terminators kits. So it's unknown if we'll be keeping those. And some of us have a lot of Aspiring Champions with combi-weapons.
ClockworkZion wrote: No, what I'm doing is not jumping to conclusions because every other 9th ed codex has had a wargear list that most units have access to that isn't always the contents of the kit.
It's not jumping to conclusions when we have strong rumours that have proven to be correct in most instances and then pictorial evidence to supports said rumours.
At this point I'm just shocked the CSM codex proper hasn't leaked yet. I mean as soon as I've got final codex information I'll be more than "happy" to get wound up about what's going on. In the meantime I'm trying to be patient and not get depressed about the codex since I'm primarily picking up a HH Legion that I'm looking at double dipping into 40k with and not the other way around and I don't want to ruin my excitement for that because this is less exciting.
ClockworkZion wrote: No, what I'm doing is not jumping to conclusions because every other 9th ed codex has had a wargear list that most units have access to that isn't always the contents of the kit.
It's not jumping to conclusions when we have strong rumours that have proven to be correct in most instances and then pictorial evidence to supports said rumours.
At this point I'm just shocked the CSM codex proper hasn't leaked yet. I mean as soon as I've got final codex information I'll be more than "happy" to get wound up about what's going on. In the meantime I'm trying to be patient and not get depressed about the codex since I'm primarily picking up a HH Legion that I'm looking at double dipping into 40k with and not the other way around and I don't want to ruin my excitement for that because this is less exciting.
This is definitely a real challenge sometimes. I've been in this hobby since the 4th ed codex, so I've gone through this cycle of hype and disappointment 5 times now with this faction. But, I'm hopeful that between the updated datasheets, faction rules, stratagems, relics, warlord traits, and all sorts of other things that it's at least a fun and relatively balanced codex to enjoy for a few years.
drbored wrote: I'd almost prefer that Aspiring Champions get to choose between "Power Fist" and "Accursed Weapon" since then I can give my Night Lords Lightning Claws and just say they're Accursed Weapons.
It's a weird sort of flexibility that lets me choose whatever style I want without worrying about which weapon option is the best.
Yeah, like I said, that's something that I can deal with. But it doesn't address the other options, like combi-weapons. Those have been an option for Aspiring Champions for a long time, and it looks like the only "official" Chaos combi-weapons will be available in the Chosen and Terminators kits. So it's unknown if we'll be keeping those. And some of us have a lot of Aspiring Champions with combi-weapons.
Yep... Doesn't the Havoc kit have a combi-weapon in it or no?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/20 03:59:39
ClockworkZion wrote: No, what I'm doing is not jumping to conclusions because every other 9th ed codex has had a wargear list that most units have access to that isn't always the contents of the kit.
It's not jumping to conclusions when we have strong rumours that have proven to be correct in most instances and then pictorial evidence to supports said rumours.
At this point I'm just shocked the CSM codex proper hasn't leaked yet. I mean as soon as I've got final codex information I'll be more than "happy" to get wound up about what's going on. In the meantime I'm trying to be patient and not get depressed about the codex since I'm primarily picking up a HH Legion that I'm looking at double dipping into 40k with and not the other way around and I don't want to ruin my excitement for that because this is less exciting.
Perhaps the codex is further out than we expected?
drbored wrote: Yep... Doesn't the Havoc kit have a combi-weapon in it or no?
The Havoc kit is weirder than that in that it has full special weapons - Melta, Plasma, and Flamer - rather than combi-weapons.
Just another one of those "The miniatures team made it, so I guess we have to make it fit!" situations, I 'spose. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Personally I'm going to take one of my Havoc Champions and hope to Khorne that the new double-handed Chainaxe works on that model. He'll make a cool character for Black Crusade.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/20 04:08:38
Surprised that the flamey guy is part of the box. It'll also suck when this box of 8 costs as much as a box of 10.
Guess that means we can also look forward to:
A Cultist Warband consists of 8-16 Chaos Cultists. One Chaos Cultist is a Cultist Firebrand, armed with a Fire-Thingy. One Chaos Cultist is a Cultist Champion armed with Unnecessarily Unique Long-Ranged Auto-Pistol and a Cultist Chainsword. The remaining Cultists are equipped with Autoguns.
1 in every 8 Cultists can exchange their Autogun for a Grenade Launcher. 1 in every 8 Cultists can exchange their Autogun for a Heavy Stubber.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/05/20 04:36:22
Surprised that the flamey guy is part of the box. It'll also suck when this box of 8 costs as much as a box of 10.
Guess that means we can also look forward to:
A Cultist Warband consists of 8-16 Chaos Cultists. One Chaos Cultist is a Cultist Firebrand, armed with a Fire-Thingy. One Chaos Cultist is a Cultist Champion armed with Unnecessarily Unique Long-Ranged Auto-Pistol and a Cultist Chainsword. The remaining Cultists are equipped with Autoguns.
1 in every 8 Cultists can exchange their Autogun for a Grenade Launcher. 1 in every 8 Cultists can exchange their Autogun for a Heavy Stubber.
1 in 8 players can exchange their salt for tears.
But yeah, that looks like a mess.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/20 04:46:49
Surprised that the flamey guy is part of the box. It'll also suck when this box of 8 costs as much as a box of 10.
Guess that means we can also look forward to:
A Cultist Warband consists of 8-16 Chaos Cultists. One Chaos Cultist is a Cultist Firebrand, armed with a Fire-Thingy. One Chaos Cultist is a Cultist Champion armed with Unnecessarily Unique Long-Ranged Auto-Pistol and a Cultist Chainsword. The remaining Cultists are equipped with Autoguns.
1 in every 8 Cultists can exchange their Autogun for a Grenade Launcher. 1 in every 8 Cultists can exchange their Autogun for a Heavy Stubber.
Oh no, it'll be something dumber.
"A Cultist Warband consists of 8 cultists. It may add 2 cultists for +1 power level, or 8 cultists for +2 power level, or 14 cultists for +4 power level. If this unit contains 8 models, they are equipped with autoguns, krak grenades, and frag grenades. If this unit contains 10 models, each model is equipped with a cultist knife and auto pistol and frag grenades and krak grenades. If this unit contains 16 models, each model is equipped with an autogun and frag grenades and krak grenades. If this unit contains 20 models, each model is equipped with a cultist knife and auto pistol and frag grenades and krak grenades."
Firebrand becoming part of the unit is neat. It is no longer feeding VP for Assasinate to your opponent as it most probably looses the character keyword.
It is odd that the granade launcher has different ranges on the different profiles.
New box art appearing means also that codex might be really close
Lord Tarkin wrote: 9th Edition has just been disgusting so far. The splitting up of all the codex's and the incomplete core rulebook for me outline how greedy and disgusting GW is being about this.
Just want to go back to this rant for a second... how the heck are you defining the 9th core rulebook as incomplete?
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
Dudeface wrote: I took it as partially satirical/sarcastic ranting tbh, maybe I was off tone via the medium of text.
Given the source, trust me, it was't.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Come to think of it, consolidating the various types of power weapon into one profile (among the few rumors I really like about this codex) is a great way to let squads be chaotic without hampering gameplay. Each member can have their own preferred method of beating things up in melee but it all 'averages out' to a single profile in abstract so that IRL games can be streamlined.
Personally, as a Chaos player who has done nothing but see his army slowly eroded since 2007, I'd rather not lose more of my options, especially when we know it derives from GW fumbling to find a solution* to squad options without giving us another Plague Marine-esque labyrinth of nonsense.
*A solution to a 'problem' that is only a problem because they made it a problem.
That gets into the nuance of which options are being lost. If consolidating power weapons back together is a loss, then by extension it was a gain that happened during the time period you mention. If it was not a significant gain, then it is also not a significant loss. If it was a significant gain, that undermines the core point made here (IMO it is the former). In my eyes the power weapon differentiation simply amounted to extra hoops of optimization needed to maintain functionality the models already had previously by picking whichever option is favored in the given edition. Perhaps more importantly all existing models and builds with them remain viable. The Plague Marine equivalent would be merging all of the disparate melee weapons into one 'accursed plague weapons' profile then letting players mix & match whichever ones they like the look of (leaving the bespoke weapon stats for Kill Team where such is appropriate) and I think we can all agree such would be an improvement.
That is a very different story to something like removing jump packs as an option for chaos lords or adding additional restrictions on how many of each weapon a squad can have.
I'm of a similar opinion. I can deal with Accursed Weapons, at least they open up modeling opportunities. But all of that other stuff that drbored and H.B.M.C outlined above? That's just not right. Sticking Chaos Terminators with restrictions on their ranged weapons, removing Cult Marines from the codex, and taking away the option of jump packs for Chaos Lords and Sorcerers is just another way to throw roadblocks in the way of CSM players trying to represent their own vision for the faction. And that's something we've had far more than enough of in our last 3 codexes.
Totally agreed. The only reason I go out of my way to mentioned accursed weapons is because it is an exception among a long list of things that I really don't like.
I am curious if Acursed Weapons get maybe some options to upgrade them, or a Strat or something. The concept of a pre stage of a deamonic weapon is actually quite cool
charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote: I am curious if Acursed Weapons get maybe some options to upgrade them, or a Strat or something. The concept of a pre stage of a deamonic weapon is actually quite cool
This would be neat. Maybe a 1 cp strat for a unit that only has one accursed weapon (like for an aspiring champ) and it's 2cp for a unit that has more, like Chosen and Terminators.
But anyway, what I HOPE they do with that Cultist Warband is have it be its own 8-man datasheet, and have Cultists be its own 10-20 datasheet.
Surprised that the flamey guy is part of the box. It'll also suck when this box of 8 costs as much as a box of 10.
Guess that means we can also look forward to:
A Cultist Warband consists of 8-16 Chaos Cultists. One Chaos Cultist is a Cultist Firebrand, armed with a Fire-Thingy. One Chaos Cultist is a Cultist Champion armed with Unnecessarily Unique Long-Ranged Auto-Pistol and a Cultist Chainsword. The remaining Cultists are equipped with Autoguns.
1 in every 8 Cultists can exchange their Autogun for a Grenade Launcher. 1 in every 8 Cultists can exchange their Autogun for a Heavy Stubber.
Oh no, it'll be something dumber.
"A Cultist Warband consists of 8 cultists. It may add 2 cultists for +1 power level, or 8 cultists for +2 power level, or 14 cultists for +4 power level. If this unit contains 8 models, they are equipped with autoguns, krak grenades, and frag grenades. If this unit contains 10 models, each model is equipped with a cultist knife and auto pistol and frag grenades and krak grenades. If this unit contains 16 models, each model is equipped with an autogun and frag grenades and krak grenades. If this unit contains 20 models, each model is equipped with a cultist knife and auto pistol and frag grenades and krak grenades."
my body is ready.
But the box only has 8 models. How can the unit have 16?
And how much you wanna bet they decide the Firebrand is such a special model that he needs a special rule to show how special he is. Something real useful, like if his unit destroys an enemy unit in melee it empowers the horns on his chest which allow him to make special hornbutt attacks for the rest of the game (+1 to hit in melee). Can't have that for free though.
+20 pts.
