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Wow...they left Honor the Prince 1CP and you can use it in the movement or charge phase. Add +6" to your move; or charge D6+6.

Why does the Daemon Prince need to have a different save vs shooting and vs melee? What purposes does that actually serve beyond adding more rules bloat?

EviscerationPlague wrote:
feth those dataslates are a goddamn mess


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and of course Chosen can't have any Power Fists but the Champ in a regular squad can!

These "rules writers" are goddamn morons.

But the chosen kit has a power fist???

 GaroRobe wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
feth those dataslates are a goddamn mess


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and of course Chosen can't have any Power Fists but the Champ in a regular squad can!

These "rules writers" are goddamn morons.

But the chosen kit has a power fist???

Oh nonono, that's still an Accursed Weapon!

 GaroRobe wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
feth those dataslates are a goddamn mess


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and of course Chosen can't have any Power Fists but the Champ in a regular squad can!

These "rules writers" are goddamn morons.

But the chosen kit has a power fist???

Guess the mouth on the palm reduces it to an accursed weapon?

Gotta say, I'm one of the GW apologists/optimists, and I'm feeling pretty bummed and disappointed by the release. Maybe it's because it got hyped up so much early on, but at least in the moment not getting Huron, not getting Bikers, not incorporating traitor guard, the rules not really wowing me, it's got me feeling that it would be better to shelve my CSM army for the time being.

After seeing the treatment that Eldar got, this feels a little phoned in relatively speaking, from rules fluff to redesigned models/new kits. The new mortals units are awesome and I love them, a lot (reminds me of the Thing), but they don't seem designed to be the mainstay of the army either - I'm not really sure anything does.

They were never going to please everyone - the issue with this faction is it's so damn fractious about what the fans want that nothing less than a really, really large treatment would satisfy everyone, since half the players want it to be distinct thematically (more possessed, more slaves, more daemon engines, see Word Bearers) while others want it to more resemble heresy era or contemporary warfare (see: Iron Warriors (half of them), Alpha Legion, etc.). Still, I would have hoped we'd get something to actually be excited about.

The instable design paradigms of CSM give me some weird level of anxiety that make me want to go play Xenos instead (if only I hadn't sold my poor Orks!). At least there you sort of know what you're going to get, even if admittedly it's not historically much. Or my Daemons, who are never going to have to worry about options since nothing will ever be updated at this rate.

Jesus... we don't even get the new Daemon Prince rules because the model isn't out, so we get what is essentially a placeholder entry. A giant "Watch this space!", or, as some here are so quick to comment, "Wait and see!".

These writers are unabashed morons who have been fething Chaos over and over and over again since September 2007.

Did the eldritch omens chosen rules have all the weapon options?

Im really starting to feel that GW cares less about modeling for cool or fluff and only for "MaH InTeRnAl BaLanCe", and it is not helping anything other than causing issues for people who do not want to cut their kits apart that they spent countless days on, and it makes no since to why chaos would stop mass equiping units for specalised tasks, like termies with fists, and not some strange possesed weapon etc...

Directionless tripe as usual. Chaos Marines conduct themselves in a strict and ordered fashion which is enacted the same way every battle... Sure.

Our characters keep losing mobility despite having kits to bash them from. Just a soulless disappointment

 GaroRobe wrote:
Did the eldritch omens chosen rules have all the weapon options?

Yes, because it was just the current Chosen dataslate with no changes.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Why does the Daemon Prince need to have a different save vs shooting and vs melee? What purposes does that actually serve beyond adding more rules bloat?

Okay, this rule is actually reasonable.

Daemons are creatures of emotions-the visceral and up close emotions of melee are better at banishing them than less passionate shooting. It's certainly not impossible to banish with a gun. But it's easier to do it in melee.

This rule makes sense, from an in-universe perspective, and isn't really hard to remember or requiring of niggly details or anything.

false_kharis wrote:
Im really starting to feel that GW cares less about modeling for cool or fluff and only for "MaH InTeRnAl BaLanCe", and it is not helping anything other than causing issues for people who do not want to cut their kits apart that they spent countless days on, and it makes no since to why chaos would stop mass equiping units for specalised tasks, like termies with fists, and not some strange possesed weapon etc...

It's not about balance (since all of these options can be balanced without any issues), it's about theme park vs. sandbox design. 40k used to be more of a sandbox game, with open-ended rules for unit construction and the expectation that you build your own cool stuff. Now GW wants it to be a theme park where you buy a single box, build it exactly according to the instructions, and use the specific rules for that box. Who cares if you've been playing that 2x melta gun squad for over a decade, rip them apart and put in appropriate weapons because the sprue designer only put one melta gun on the sprue and GW doesn't want you looking for third-party melta guns.

(And yes, it's a profoundly stupid approach to the situation.)

Noise Marines and Sonic Weapons are "GOOD" now; +1 damage within half range!

Blastmaster:

Single Freq 48" Heavy 3/S8/AP-3/Dam 3/Sonic Weapon [+1 dam within half range]
Varied Freq 36" Assault D6/S5/AP-2/Dam 1/Sonic Weapon [+1 dam within half range]

Sonic Blasters: 24" Assault 3/S4/AP-1/Dam 1/Sonic Weapon [+1 dam within half range]

Doom Siren: 12" Assault D6/S5/AP-3/Dam 1/auto hits/Sonic Weapon [+1 dam within half range]

They lost ignore cover, but it look like it was just baked into the weapons profile since the all went up -1 AP.
Noise marines did loose Music of the Apocalypse though.

Excrusciating Frequencies: [1CP]

Shooting Phase select an enemy unit, unmodofoed wound rolls of 6 cause a MW in addtion to any normal damage.
A unit cannot suffer more than 6 MW per phase as the result of this stratagem.
After make your attacks select on target unit that was hit with a sonic weapon this phase, .
Until your next turn that enemy unit cannot fire overwatch or set to defend.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Daemons are creatures of emotions-the visceral and up close emotions of melee are better at banishing them than less passionate shooting. It's certainly not impossible to banish with a gun. But it's easier to do it in melee.

You can justify anything with the fluff. I could just as easily say the opposite and be as right or as wrong as you are.

Dumb rules are dumb rules, no matter how you spin them. It's bloat, and adds nothing.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Daemons are creatures of emotions-the visceral and up close emotions of melee are better at banishing them than less passionate shooting. It's certainly not impossible to banish with a gun. But it's easier to do it in melee.

You can justify anything with the fluff. I could just as easily say the opposite and be as right or as wrong as you are.

Dumb rules are dumb rules, no matter how you spin them. It's bloat, and adds nothing.

So where's the fluff that it's more effective to shoot a Daemon than it is to melee one?

Is it bloat that Knights have Ion Shields too? That's a different save in melee than at range.

CadianSgtBob wrote:

false_kharis wrote:
Im really starting to feel that GW cares less about modeling for cool or fluff and only for "MaH InTeRnAl BaLanCe", and it is not helping anything other than causing issues for people who do not want to cut their kits apart that they spent countless days on, and it makes no since to why chaos would stop mass equiping units for specalised tasks, like termies with fists, and not some strange possesed weapon etc...

It's not about balance (since all of these options can be balanced without any issues), it's about theme park vs. sandbox design. 40k used to be more of a sandbox game, with open-ended rules for unit construction and the expectation that you build your own cool stuff. Now GW wants it to be a theme park where you buy a single box, build it exactly according to the instructions, and use the specific rules for that box. Who cares if you've been playing that 2x melta gun squad for over a decade, rip them apart and put in appropriate weapons because the sprue designer only put one melta gun on the sprue and GW doesn't want you looking for third-party melta guns.

(And yes, it's a profoundly stupid approach to the situation.)

Yeah if it were for balance we wouldn't have the Sword Brethren dataslate as is.

Damnit. Only one Blastmaster per squad now. Why? But +1S on the Blastmaster's varied freq, and +4" range on the Doom Siren.

 Sersi wrote:
Damnit. Only one Blastmaster per squad now. Why?

Because the (incompatible) upgrade packs only come with one each.

 JNAProductions wrote:
So where's the fluff that it's more effective to shoot a Daemon than it is to melee one?

Where's the fluff that it's more effective to fight one in melee than shooting it?

 JNAProductions wrote:
Is it bloat that Knights have Ion Shields too? That's a different save in melee than at range.

No the Ion Shield only works against ranged attacks. The Daemon Prince has different rules that don't add anything to the game. They're just one more thing on an ever-growing list of things to remember. Hence: Bloat.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Sersi wrote:
Damnit. Only one Blastmaster per squad now. Why?

Because the (incompatible) upgrade packs only come with one each.

 JNAProductions wrote:
So where's the fluff that it's more effective to shoot a Daemon than it is to melee one?

Where's the fluff that it's more effective to fight one in melee than shooting it?

 JNAProductions wrote:
Is it bloat that Knights have Ion Shields too? That's a different save in melee than at range.

No the Ion Shield only works against ranged attacks. The Daemon Prince has different rules that don't add anything to the game. They're just one more thing on an ever-growing list of things to remember. Hence: Bloat.

So would you rather they have two separate rules, one granting a 4+ invuln to ranged only and one to a 5+ invuln only in melee, or just universally?

Why is "3+/5++ against ranged, 3+/- in melee" okay for Knights, but "3+/4++ against ranged, 3+/5++ in melee" not okay for a Daemon?

What happened to this book?
5++ for Oblits: Daemonic (also has Daemonkin and Daemon Keywords)
5++ for Possessed: Daemonkin (also has Daemonkin and Daemon Keywords)
4++/5++ for DP: also Daemonic. But at least he isn’t daemonkin.
Why is this inconsistent? Was this written by five different people at five different stages of the edition?

Bonus: DP is for the old kit, not the new kit, which we know has the gun. So this whole datasheet is already invalid in T-minus 6 months or less.
Can't be undivided, but undivided is an option elsewhere. 'k

Chosen- no special weapons anymore. And.. the unit options they have are… limited and stupid. Swapping a gun for a single bonus attack on one guy is just… weird. Sorry, no.

Dinobot weapon ‘choices’ just make me angry.

No duplicate special/heavy weapons for legionaries. No, what? What? That is so incredibly petty.
Also, what's a 'tainted chainaxe?' (its the last thing on the point list for the squad) It isn't the heavy chainaxe because that has rules and is 10 points. Is it on the melee weapons list that is a secret to only noise marines and legionary champions (and not any of the veterans)?

Terminators are just a middle finger.

Master of executions. Still a cool concept. Still can’t get there.

Oh yeah, it looks atrocious. I like the 4+ Invuln against shooting/5+ Invuln in melee for Daemons… but why is it only on the Prince? If Possessed and Obliterators don’t get it because they’re still too Mariney, shouldn’t the Prince be the same? And why does it have the same name?

Conceptually it’s fine. But seeing it has the same name as another, similar BUT NOT THE SAME rule… gag.

LOL thanks GW for saving me from spending money on new kits and paint...guess I'll try 30k and stick to 1k sons lead by Abbadon.

It’s weird, this codex could have been released months ago or even last year. There’s nothing revolutionary or outstanding to make people wait this long for this book. Oh dear.
It works for me and my Iron Warriors, but I’m just a casual chaos player, I feel for the hardcore dedicated ones.

 Gratlugg wrote:
Gotta say, I'm one of the GW apologists/optimists, and I'm feeling pretty bummed and disappointed by the release. Maybe it's because it got hyped up so much early on, but at least in the moment not getting Huron, not getting Bikers, not incorporating traitor guard, the rules not really wowing me, it's got me feeling that it would be better to shelve my CSM army for the time being.

After seeing the treatment that Eldar got, this feels a little phoned in relatively speaking, from rules fluff to redesigned models/new kits. The new mortals units are awesome and I love them, a lot (reminds me of the Thing), but they don't seem designed to be the mainstay of the army either - I'm not really sure anything does.

They were never going to please everyone - the issue with this faction is it's so damn fractious about what the fans want that nothing less than a really, really large treatment would satisfy everyone, since half the players want it to be distinct thematically (more possessed, more slaves, more daemon engines, see Word Bearers) while others want it to more resemble heresy era or contemporary warfare (see: Iron Warriors (half of them), Alpha Legion, etc.). Still, I would have hoped we'd get something to actually be excited about.

The instable design paradigms of CSM give me some weird level of anxiety that make me want to go play Xenos instead (if only I hadn't sold my poor Orks!). At least there you sort of know what you're going to get, even if admittedly it's not historically much. Or my Daemons, who are never going to have to worry about options since nothing will ever be updated at this rate.

I'm speaking from a pure basis of speculation, but it feels like CSM are in a bit of a limbo right now. It seems the push is to get the cult legions out of the book. I feel like this limbo is going to continue until EC are in their own book (likely in 10th if we're lucky) but hopefully that'll help give the CSM book a more concentrate design direction they can run with.

Or maybe I'm wrong and the issue is they're still trying to decide what to do with CSM right now and the issue is we don't have anyone to really champion the faction in the 40k studio.


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 Eldarain wrote:
Chaos Marines conduct themselves in a strict and ordered fashion which is enacted the same way every battle... Sure.

My guess is that the studio looked at how the C:SM tactics were used and decided to no repeat the mistake and instead push people to play how they envision Astartes fighting: by closing the distance and then engaging in melee, not gearing up with heavy weapons and trying to stack bonuses that way.

I'm not saying this is right or wrong, just saying why I think this approach was taken.

Why was the warp bolter cut from the daemon prince?

Does anyone know if Abby still gets his legion traits if taken with 1k sons (or World Eaters when they drop) as a Supreme Commander?

Huh, just casually wrote a list to my current Iron Warriors with new points and it came out to 2000pts exactly. That’s quite bizarre.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Why was the warp bolter cut from the daemon prince?

Because the current model doesn't have it, even though the upcoming model does, but no model = no rule, and we don't have that model yet, so we don't get that rule yet.

GW are fething clownshoes.

Because kit dont have it, and they seem to be only going off what the kits did and did not have, as you can see with termies, and chosen, along with the prince, and for some reason kitlocking is a cool and hip new thing they want to do to us.