Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Daemons have so few options that it's harder to mess them up, at least in terms of gear. Not to say that that couldn't happen though.

As for the letter writing, I'll hold off until.after the codex is released, just to make sure that everything we've seen is final, and to wait for any for any erratas.

I wouldn't wait for errata before pointing out flaws. You want those corrected in the first errata like the mixing of the Autarck kit options. Waiting until after that reduces the Design Studios ability to correct it as an oversight rather than backtracking on a design decision. Just be sure to get and carefully review the Codex so that you don't put forth a partially incorrect complaint that will allow them to discount it as invalid or overblown.

Word Bearers leaks from r/Chaos40k

Cruel joke Word Bearers get cool rules in this mess.

 alextroy wrote:

DreadfullyHopeful wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
...manufactured outrage...

... I don't think you know what those words mean. Not in that order at least.

The new Chaos Space Marines Codex has been done no dirtier than any other 9th Edition Codex. Watching yet another codex release filled with the same wailing and gnashing of teeth is tiring.

How many datasheets lost options out of other Codexes?
Space Marines didn't. Their successors didn't. Astra Militarum lost penal legion a while back, but that was an 8th edition issue. Adeptus Mechanicus didn't. Custodes didn't. Imperial Knights didn't. Sororitas just became a thing, and while people wish there was a Jump Pack Canoness, otherwise they didn't really lose much of anything. So not a single Imperium faction has wholesale lost options.

Orks I think had some issues with Boyz, and their major issue has been buggies being nerfed by balance dataslates. And fliers, but that's a whole-game issue. Tau haven't lost any options, save Crisis Suits needing to split things up differently. Eldar and Harlequins haven't lost anything. Dark Eldar have lost some datasheets, but again that was an 8th edition thing. Tyranids had Genestealers get their squad size reduced, but otherwise haven't lost any major options. Necrons haven't lost much.

The only faction to have whole swathes of options yanked from their Codex from 8th edition to 9th edition have been Chaos Marines and Death Guard, with many units we used to be able to make suddenly yanked out from under us because of a sudden change in rules philosophy that didn't mesh well with the kits that they have sold to us.

Chaos Marines have been done dirtier than many other 9th edition codexes.

They've had options stripped again and again, baked down to limit the way we can actually build our units. You're a jerk and need to go troll in some other forum.

 alextroy wrote:
I wouldn't wait for errata before pointing out flaws. You want those corrected in the first errata like the mixing of the Autarck kit options. Waiting until after that reduces the Design Studios ability to correct it as an oversight rather than backtracking on a design decision. Just be sure to get and carefully review the Codex so that you don't put forth a partially incorrect complaint that will allow them to discount it as invalid or overblown.

That's pretty good advice, I think that I'll do that. Also, based on the last comment, I might mention the Death Guard codex as well, as it suffers from the same issues, though the focus will be on the CSM codex.

Looks like Word Bearers possessed can still get ap3. And with the option of reroll wounds on top of reroll hits (and 6s auto wound from a psychic power)? Could be spicy.

Hexagrammatic Wards is before the save roll now, but can also be used on any Word Bearer model - could save some helbrutes or venom crawlers from railguns, though.

drbored wrote:
How many datasheets lost options out of other Codexes?
Space Marines didn't. Their successors didn't. Astra Militarum lost penal legion a while back, but that was an 8th edition issue. Adeptus Mechanicus didn't. Custodes didn't. Imperial Knights didn't. Sororitas just became a thing, and while people wish there was a Jump Pack Canoness, otherwise they didn't really lose much of anything. So not a single Imperium faction has wholesale lost options.

Orks I think had some issues with Boyz, and their major issue has been buggies being nerfed by balance dataslates. And fliers, but that's a whole-game issue. Tau haven't lost any options, save Crisis Suits needing to split things up differently. Eldar and Harlequins haven't lost anything. Dark Eldar have lost some datasheets, but again that was an 8th edition thing. Tyranids had Genestealers get their squad size reduced, but otherwise haven't lost any major options. Necrons haven't lost much.

Point of fact, Dark Eldar have lost options in every single edition and 9th was no exception.

In the most recent book, the Haemonculus lost the ability to take:
- Agoniser
- Venom Blade
- Flesh Gauntlet
- Mindphase Gauntlet
- Scissorhands
- Electrocorrosive Whip
- Liquifier Gun
- Hexrifle

As in, he lost every single option he had. That left DE with all of 2 HQs that had access to any options at all.

Don't get me wrong, though - I very much sympathise with you and other Chaos players staring at the ridiculous loss of options and the asinine changes to model loadouts. The loss of Jump Packs in particular cuts deep. Same goes for Lightning Claws - if nothing else, they're one of the coolest looking weapons and there's no good reason for removing them.

Hell, Chaos was one of those armies I'd often considered picking up if/when I could afford it. Buf if these changes stick . . . yeah, no.

 vipoid wrote:

drbored wrote:
How many datasheets lost options out of other Codexes?
Space Marines didn't. Their successors didn't. Astra Militarum lost penal legion a while back, but that was an 8th edition issue. Adeptus Mechanicus didn't. Custodes didn't. Imperial Knights didn't. Sororitas just became a thing, and while people wish there was a Jump Pack Canoness, otherwise they didn't really lose much of anything. So not a single Imperium faction has wholesale lost options.

Orks I think had some issues with Boyz, and their major issue has been buggies being nerfed by balance dataslates. And fliers, but that's a whole-game issue. Tau haven't lost any options, save Crisis Suits needing to split things up differently. Eldar and Harlequins haven't lost anything. Dark Eldar have lost some datasheets, but again that was an 8th edition thing. Tyranids had Genestealers get their squad size reduced, but otherwise haven't lost any major options. Necrons haven't lost much.

Point of fact, Dark Eldar have lost options in every single edition and 9th was no exception.

In the most recent book, the Haemonculus lost the ability to take:
- Agoniser
- Venom Blade
- Flesh Gauntlet
- Mindphase Gauntlet
- Scissorhands
- Electrocorrosive Whip
- Liquifier Gun
- Hexrifle

As in, he lost every single option he had. That left DE with all of 2 HQs that had access to any options at all.

Don't get me wrong, though - I very much sympathise with you and other Chaos players staring at the ridiculous loss of options and the asinine changes to model loadouts. The loss of Jump Packs in particular cuts deep. Same goes for Lightning Claws - if nothing else, they're one of the coolest looking weapons and there's no good reason for removing them.

Hell, Chaos was one of those armies I'd often considered picking up if/when I could afford it. Buf if these changes stick . . . yeah, no.

Games Workshop is committed to sterilising the game as much as possible and basically getting it as close to almost pre-built games where unit options simply do not exist.

I wonder if GW plans to kill their own games on stupidity and purpose.

of course they are, the worse the game becomes, the more hype they can get for a new Edition and the more money they make with it

nothing new year, last year if an Edition GW is always trying as hard as possible to kill it, making money with whales only and than get everyone back with the big hype because now they will really try to make it game

RazorEdge wrote:
I wonder if GW plans to kill their own games on stupidity and purpose.

Doubtful. Even the most cynical read wouldn't work on that because they'd lose money, not make it by driving people away. No number of new editions fixes that. Look at WFB trying to do a new edition and killing the game instead with 8th.

I don't believe GW is trying to kill the game - I just think GW has moved away from many hobby principles in favour of something very sterile.

Yeah. "Trying to kill the game!" doesn't make any sense. They're not even capable of killing it by accident.

Yeah, everyone going off about "sterilizing the game" must not have been around for 5th edition. Talk about sterile codexes that sucked all the air and fun out of the game, all because Jervis Johnsons kid was easily confused by things that had rules but no models or options that didn't have parts in the kit, etc. We're still feeling the impacts of that today, but at least GW has put flavor back into the books rather than bland boring ass rules.

That being said, this codex is a mess. Power wise it might be okay, I understand the need for streamlining and pruning of certain things, but as others pointed out there is evidently zero consistency or standard that was applied in deciding which units/options were being cut or limited and which were not. Going through some of the leaked datasheets I'm getting a bit of whiplash trying to reconcile why one unit gets a full slate of melee options while the next only gets "accursed weapons" or why one unit gets access to upgrades that aren't in the kit but another loses upgrades that are. Its like two (or more) different people wrote the book and neither could agree on how it should be structured, so they split the datasheets in half and wrote them separately.

I think this is the last place where you need to remind people how bland 5th edition was, Chaos0xomega.

People in this thread are so hyper-focused on complaining they are ignoring the actual, brand new, never-before-seen (on this forum) leaks posted on this very page.

Incredible. This thread really should be locked.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Yeah, everyone going off about "sterilizing the game" must not have been around for 5th edition. Talk about sterile codexes that sucked all the air and fun out of the game, all because Jervis Johnsons kid was easily confused by things that had rules but no models or options that didn't have parts in the kit, etc. We're still feeling the impacts of that today, but at least GW has put flavor back into the books rather than bland boring ass rules.

I was around for 5th ed and I also remember it being a sterile nightmare (something plenty of 5e fans seem to just forget entirely). Just because the game was sterile then doesn't mean it's not sterile now - or returning to that kind of sterile mindset.

There are still people for them 5th Edition 40k was the best Edition GW ever made.

Raulengrin wrote:
the actual, brand new, never-before-seen (on this forum) leaks posted on this very page.

Who cares when most of the rest in the book is ghak.

RazorEdge wrote:
There are still people for them 5th Edition 40k was the best Edition GW ever made.

Raulengrin wrote:
the actual, brand new, never-before-seen (on this forum) leaks posted on this very page.

Who cares when most of the rest in the book is ghak.

Kind of my point. This is a CSM rumour thread. If you don't care about the rumours, go post somewhere else.

Raulengrin wrote:
People in this thread are so hyper-focused on complaining they are ignoring the actual, brand new, never-before-seen (on this forum) leaks posted on this very page.

Incredible. This thread really should be locked.

Not quite but good try. Lots of the codex has leaked, but there is still a lot of unknown which absolutely justifies the continuation of the thread.

As far as hyper focused complaining goes - it's completely to be expected as the garbage is also hyper focused:
1. Legion traits - looking good
2. Mono faction/doctrine rules - nice
3. Stratagems/relics/warlord traits - looking real good, especially having many per subfaction which is much more than other codices get
4. Psychics/litanies - solid stuff going on
5. Statline updates - great, nice to see 2W finally happen, and T8 being breached is another first
6. Datasheets - utter garbage. 6 marine datasheets deleted (of which 5 have kits available), 2 cultists added. Options removed from a majority of units in a way that has nothing to do with whats in the kit

There's only 1 thing wrong with the codex, unfortunately it's a big un.

 Insularum wrote:

Raulengrin wrote:
People in this thread are so hyper-focused on complaining they are ignoring the actual, brand new, never-before-seen (on this forum) leaks posted on this very page.

Incredible. This thread really should be locked.

Not quite but good try. Lots of the codex has leaked, but there is still a lot of unknown which absolutely justifies the continuation of the thread.

As far as hyper focused complaining goes - it's completely to be expected as the garbage is also hyper focused:
1. Legion traits - looking good
2. Mono faction/doctrine rules - nice
3. Stratagems/relics/warlord traits - looking real good, especially having many per subfaction which is much more than other codices get
4. Psychics/litanies - solid stuff going on
5. Statline updates - great, nice to see 2W finally happen, and T8 being breached is another first
6. Datasheets - utter garbage. 6 marine datasheets deleted (of which 5 have kits available), 2 cultists added. Options removed from a majority of units in a way that has nothing to do with whats in the kit

There's only 1 thing wrong with the codex, unfortunately it's a big un.

I get that and while I too am and was pissed about it, how many more pages do we need on loadouts being invalidated?

 Insularum wrote:

Raulengrin wrote:
People in this thread are so hyper-focused on complaining they are ignoring the actual, brand new, never-before-seen (on this forum) leaks posted on this very page.

Incredible. This thread really should be locked.

Not quite but good try. Lots of the codex has leaked, but there is still a lot of unknown which absolutely justifies the continuation of the thread.

As far as hyper focused complaining goes - it's completely to be expected as the garbage is also hyper focused:
1. Legion traits - looking good
2. Mono faction/doctrine rules - nice
3. Stratagems/relics/warlord traits - looking real good, especially having many per subfaction which is much more than other codices get
4. Psychics/litanies - solid stuff going on
5. Statline updates - great, nice to see 2W finally happen, and T8 being breached is another first
6. Datasheets - utter garbage. 6 marine datasheets deleted (of which 5 have kits available), 2 cultists added. Options removed from a majority of units in a way that has nothing to do with whats in the kit

There's only 1 thing wrong with the codex, unfortunately it's a big un.

Yes, and point 6 has been talked about to absolute death. However, there are new leaks which people are ignoring in favour of continuing a several page long group rant about what the codex lost. Evidence suggests that these people aren't actually interested in rumours and should take their (otherwise very valid) concerns - all of which are very well documented in this thread - elsewhere.

 Eldarain wrote:
Cruel joke Word Bearers get cool rules in this mess.

I'm kind of wondering when they became the melee legion, however. Is it just on accident after bumping the world eaters to future stand alone status, or are they supposed to want to beat face all the time?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Raulengrin wrote:

Yes, and point 6 has been talked about to absolute death. However, there are new leaks which people are ignoring in favour of continuing a several page long group rant about what the codex lost. Evidence suggests that these people aren't actually interested in rumours and should take their (otherwise very valid) concerns - all of which are very well documented in this thread - elsewhere.

So start a conversation about them rather than 100% being part of the problem you're complaining about.

Raulengrin wrote:Looks like Word Bearers possessed can still get ap3. And with the option of reroll wounds on top of reroll hits (and 6s auto wound from a psychic power)? Could be spicy.

Hexagrammatic Wards is before the save roll now, but can also be used on any Word Bearer model - could save some helbrutes or venom crawlers from railguns, though.

Voss wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
Cruel joke Word Bearers get cool rules in this mess.

I'm kind of wondering when they became the melee legion, however. Is it just on accident after bumping the world eaters to future stand alone status, or are they supposed to want to beat face all the time?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Raulengrin wrote:

Yes, and point 6 has been talked about to absolute death. However, there are new leaks which people are ignoring in favour of continuing a several page long group rant about what the codex lost. Evidence suggests that these people aren't actually interested in rumours and should take their (otherwise very valid) concerns - all of which are very well documented in this thread - elsewhere.

So start a conversation about them rather than 100% being part of the problem you're complaining about.

I was literally the second person to start a discussion about the aforementioned rumours.

Raulengrin wrote:

RazorEdge wrote:
There are still people for them 5th Edition 40k was the best Edition GW ever made.

Raulengrin wrote:
the actual, brand new, never-before-seen (on this forum) leaks posted on this very page.

Who cares when most of the rest in the book is ghak.

Kind of my point. This is a CSM rumour thread. If you don't care about the rumours, go post somewhere else.

Well, they're Word Bearers leaks. I'm sure once some Word Bearers players get a look at them they'll go . They actually look pretty good. But if you don't play Word Bearers? You're just sitting here thinking: "When is someone going to leak some rules for [INSERT LEGION HERE]?".

Datasheets that we haven't seen before would probably get everyone going. But it's completely up in the air whether the reactions will be positive or negative the way they've been going.

 Eldarain wrote:
Cruel joke Word Bearers get cool rules in this mess.

I really like the 'feth you, Hammerhead' strat.

Voss wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
Cruel joke Word Bearers get cool rules in this mess.

I'm kind of wondering when they became the melee legion, however. Is it just on accident after bumping the world eaters to future stand alone status, or are they supposed to want to beat face all the time?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Raulengrin wrote:

Yes, and point 6 has been talked about to absolute death. However, there are new leaks which people are ignoring in favour of continuing a several page long group rant about what the codex lost. Evidence suggests that these people aren't actually interested in rumours and should take their (otherwise very valid) concerns - all of which are very well documented in this thread - elsewhere.

So start a conversation about them rather than 100% being part of the problem you're complaining about.

I think GW realised 'being really brave' in a game where everyone is already really brave and fanatic wasn't really meaningful and so went for something a bit different. In The Horus Heresy, Word Bearers gain some bonuses to close combat and have a lot of close quarters focussed upgrades and units.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
Cruel joke Word Bearers get cool rules in this mess.

I really like the 'feth you, Hammerhead' strat.

Yeah. Would be really nice on something big and nasty. Y'know, the typical target for a Hammerhead. Like, a REALLY BIG DAEMON ENGINE. Have we seen any of those recently?

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Word Bearers leaks from r/Chaos40k

Thanks!

Master of the Union - Solid.
Omen - Already seen.
Exalted Possession - Already seen. Still afraid of that 4++ vs. ranged as I'm not sure who doesn't have a basic 4++ to start with (except for DPs who we've now found out about getting 5++/4++ ranged).
Baleful Icon - Hello there. Can I buy you a drink? I'm dreaming of a deathball list that keeps everything within 6" of a big fat based HQ.
Profane Zeal - Already seen.
Eightfold-cursed crozius - Fantastic name of course. Looks to be +1AP, +1D, auto wounds with hoops vs. a normal Crozius, seems very good, but unlikely to be a good face delivery method for it.
Hexagrammatic Ward - Situational but good.
Malevolent Covenent - Good, but that deny the witch test wording is horrible as I suspect you'll have to debate with TOs whether it works on a lot of 4+ strats.
Apostle of the Dark Council - Need to see the DA and the new cultist HQ datasheets.
Revered Hosts - Priced in a very Chaos way, just a little bit too much to get used in many situations I think.
Dark Pact - Solid.

Still waiting on a full picture of each legion, as what you usually find is they each have 1 good trait/relic/strat (that don't work with each other) and the trait/relic/strat they would have synergy with is in another legion.

Also, super doctrines where are you?