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Also, considering the importance of placement and maneuver - PP say front arcs add to the mental load. Really? One of he most intuitive rules in the game?
Universal - everyone has the same rule
Intuitive -can't attacks what you can't see and it's easier to hit you from the back, even if you don't play WM it's obvious
Easy - a few sentences are enough to describe it
Player dependant - whether it is used optimally or badly is entirely in players' hands
And they call it "mental load"? Compared to the rest of WM&H?
First poster here haha, but feel like I can actually contribute here, as I feel like I'm one of the few that was still actively playing a lot.
I see a lot of criticism over the simplification and removal of mechanics and I felt the same way myself at first but then I gave it some thought and it made a lot more sense.
Warmachine basically died in my area, to the point that LGS didn't even carry it and local 'groups' on facebook and such just dissolved. So I ended up setting up my own game room in my basement with 2 big tables. Myself and a few friends basically just started playing among ourselves in my basement whenever we had time. Most of that gameplay was Brawlmachine, the smaller, and therefore simpler game mode.
Now none of us are all-star competitive champs on the tabletop but we've all been playing warmachine since at least 2016. We know the rules inside and out and there is very rarely ever a required rule look up. Yet we all much preferred the smaller scale battles. Not because of lack of models, or lack of time, or whatever. But just because it was so much smoother. A lot of positioning shenanigan's, free strike stuff, facing problems that come up with lots of models, terrain issues, and such just disappeared because the game was simpler at the lower point cost and funnily enough more enjoyable even for us.
I'd say we were unique in that regard but it seems that most of the people I seen actively playing online were also doing brawlmachine. The obviously more simple, more "room to breath" game mode. And I don't feel like it was as simple as smaller armies = more fun. A part of it was definitely just not having to deal with a lot of those extra finnicky placement, position, facing,I-need-to-find-a-path rules.
But that's just me, I still have my whatsapp group with my few warmachine friends and we're cautiously optimistic about the general direction. Especially if we can still just play with our old models in some legacy format.
Edit: Oh we are all also so accustomed to the war room app that we've given up on most tabletop war games that don't have a digital resource that's up to par. I straight up dropped my attempt at 40K because of that. Odd how different peoples views are I guess.. lol
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/28 10:46:15
kodos wrote: PP is doing everything people "ask" GW doing with 40k, go full 3D printing, go full digital, keep old models and new ones with different gaming modes, seasons to keep the meta fresh etc.
...
funny thing is that people call it DoA simply because it is doing what others say GW must do to survive and maybe this the US market wants from a competitive game and maybe it will work
I don't recall anyone saying that GW should do mass 3D printing of their minis to move all their rules to an app as the only method of viewing/purchasing them.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I don't recall anyone saying that GW should do mass 3D printing of their minis to move all their rules to an app as the only method of viewing/purchasing them.
depends on the channels you follow, but GW stop printing and do all rules via the 40k app comes up once in a while by fans (not the usefull suggestion of selling e-books again but just do the app only thing)
as well as classic "casting" is already dead and GW (or mini companies in general) should just 3D print the models for those who cannot print at home
my take on this is that most people who suggest it have no clue about 3D printing and the numbers of kits you can get out of it (or the price of commercial printing farms is not the same with printing at home and ignore anything but cost of resin) and those are the same people who think 90% of the models sales come from people who don't play the games
overall, I think PP listening to the wrong people and also believe they can solve the distribution problem by having 3D printers all over the world
Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise
H.B.M.C. wrote: Position and manoeuvre have been eroded over time in 40k simply as a byproduct of them simplifying the rules. I've not seen a game actually set out to remove that factor.
Yeah. I'm honestly just baffled by the idea of Warmachine without tactical & precise positioning. It was laborious at times and I'm sure its actually a relief to some.
But it was the meat of the game.
Now you can just charge a fool, then place the guy from the back of the unit with his base just barely touching the 2" mark forward from the charge, and wrap models around a blocker to still tag the model they're defending.
Truthfully, with a small based model as the charge target, you can just drop at least some of the charging unit on the other side of the enemy model. All that matters is one model in the unit can complete the charge. They rest can just pop into existence on the other side of an intact shield wall. And they can attack anyone in their (now longer) melee range, the additonal models in the unit don't actually have a charge target. Or facings. They do lose the charge bonus if their targets aren't engaged by the charging model, but so what? At that point the enemies either have to fight your trash or forfeit their combat action.
Huh. Technically since you measure everything from base edge to base edge, charging units can drop people on the other side of heavy warjacks, as 2" is slightly longer than 50mm.
Note that while you can leapfrog and tag a model behind the defender, you only get the boosted damage roll against models in melee range of the first model that moved. That's fine in a lot of cases, but is enough to protect a lot of models worth protecting.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Position and manoeuvre have been eroded over time in 40k simply as a byproduct of them simplifying the rules. I've not seen a game actually set out to remove that factor.
Yeah. I'm honestly just baffled by the idea of Warmachine without tactical & precise positioning. It was laborious at times and I'm sure its actually a relief to some.
But it was the meat of the game.
Now you can just charge a fool, then place the guy from the back of the unit with his base just barely touching the 2" mark forward from the charge, and wrap models around a blocker to still tag the model they're defending.
Truthfully, with a small based model as the charge target, you can just drop at least some of the charging unit on the other side of the enemy model. All that matters is one model in the unit can complete the charge. They rest can just pop into existence on the other side of an intact shield wall. And they can attack anyone in their (now longer) melee range, the additonal models in the unit don't actually have a charge target. Or facings. They do lose the charge bonus if their targets aren't engaged by the charging model, but so what? At that point the enemies either have to fight your trash or forfeit their combat action.
Huh. Technically since you measure everything from base edge to base edge, charging units can drop people on the other side of heavy warjacks, as 2" is slightly longer than 50mm.
Note that while you can leapfrog and tag a model behind the defender, you only get the boosted damage roll against models in melee range of the first model that moved. That's fine in a lot of cases, but is enough to protect a lot of models worth protecting.
I did, in fact, note that.
It still doesn't make Bob and Fred being able to teleport through shield walls any less dumb. And from a tactical play it still isn't bad (fight trash or forfeit combat actions), especially with the addition of Execution mode with its 'Highlander the movie' limits on who's even allowed to kill the immortal named characters.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/07/28 15:06:54
Gave a quick scan through the beta rules. Now, granted, I haven't played since late Mk 2, though did read up and watch some of early Mk 3. While I think some of the changes are decent and will speed some things up and remove some points of contention, I will also say that I don't think the biggest problem with Warmachine was in its core rules, but in the sheer bloat that it suffered from with all the various special rules everywhere.
De-emphasizing micro-managing placement and measuring by just increasing melee range and removing free strikes is, IMO, the lazy way out of that problem. The changes to unit movement is... interesting. Sure it will speed things up, but I believe it's going to cause a lot of problems that they didn't think about (yeah, yeah, they "playtested" it extensively; they said the same about early Mk 3 and we all remember how that turned out).
I completely understand the need to somehow deal with the massive list of models they already have (c.f. bloat, above), and get the Unlimited vs Prime thing. Probably not too many other ways to do that. However... their planned release schedule for the Unlimted/Legacy armies is going to immediately kill off a large chunk of their player base, as will many of the rules changes (as we can guess from various reactions to the beta rules drop, here and elsewhere). I do not think any of these changes is going to draw new players in to the levels that they need to in order to keep the game (and possibly company?) alive, however.
The production model is one thing, and I do still think that could be successful. But, in order for that to even matter, they have to generate enough interest via the rules for people to want to buy the models. And I don't think these rules are going to do that in the volume they need to.
PP is doing everything people "ask" GW doing with 40k, go full 3D printing, go full digital, keep old models and new ones with different gaming modes, seasons to keep the meta fresh etc.
while at the same time copy the rules "style" of 40k because it is the most successful game, everyone plays (also everyone 3D prints models or buy 3rd party knock offs to play the game) so the rules must be what people want
funny thing is that people call it DoA simply because it is doing what others say GW must do to survive and maybe this the US market wants from a competitive game and maybe it will work
overall, wait and see but I have my doubts
Some people asks all sorts of stupid things, the key is to know who to listen to and who is just running their mouth. More importantly if someone wanted the rules style of 40k they're already playing GW and aren't likely to swap over to a game where they'll have to buy all new models and won't find opponents as easy. Meanwhile the people who liked the old style leave for other pastures.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/28 16:52:26
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I’m fairly confident GW will be watching this experiment unfold, as will the wider wargames market.
If it works or not, there will be lessons for other companies in the market
That's giving PP an importance they don't have anymore for quite a while, now.
I think reality is more likely to be nobody outside of PP leftover fans / designers does really care about what they'll do.
As for "simplification" of rules...that's nothing new nor surprising. It's the basic minimum to hope attracting new players instead of just keeping the old guard that didn't leave them (and is not enough to "make PP great again").
PP is doing everything people "ask" GW doing with 40k,
Really? i went back to playing 5th ed 40K because i WANT facings and templates, i want tactical movement to be part of my tactical miniature war game.
After reading through the beta rules....i'll just keep playing warmachine not "warcaster light" i already have a sizable army and the physical rules with plenty of people who will play MKIII with me.
Just in case i went to the card database and started downloading everything.
GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear/MCP
Notable layering on the shoulder. I've seen some other sampled that got sent out and there's definitely some pooling issues in places and other artifacts. Not sure how much of that is quality control or if its lighting, as I've also seen some pretty fantastic samples. In all cases, the magnetizing is pretty awesome and super exciting for the game and the assembly has been very simple. I'll need to see some of it in person to see if the layering is a dealbreaker for me or not.
I wonder what layer height that is set to print at. If they are using new 8K resolution printers, 0.02 print height (which will take a lot longer to print than, say 0.05) then they can probably eliminate them. Some parts might even take using AA settings without too much loss of detail.
ImAGeek wrote: In the assembly stream you could see that the models' texture were smooth to the point of being glossy
The models in the stream I think you're talking about looked pretty damned good. There were some 'scabbing' issues with concave holes I noticed, and a few visible steps on shallow curves in specific spots (but that's something they can fix still) and a couple spots where there were supports still attached that needed trimmed.
It's a shame really, well produced mediocre models.
There are also recurring PPE costs, extra electricity costs from ventilated enclosures, an air purifier in the space as backup. Screen protectors for the LCD. Gaskets and/or gasket tape for around replaced screens. etc.
My reply at the end of this gor buried as the end post on page 3, and it bears repeating as it has not come up again.
So, what would you estimate the final cost per starter set would be for PP, after all these hidden expenditures?
Seeing all these accruing costs reminded me of a music video:
I have no idea of their demand level, so I can't answer that well.
assuming mass market, including wholesale accounts that are going to purchase in bulk: probably close or higher than 75 machines based on the size of war machine figures I have owned personally (time to print is a factor.) lets be generous and say they have 3 facilities (Europe, americas, asia/pacific.) Manpower is dependent on how much you really want to throw at it. assuming they can get bulk rates on PPE, and don't cheap out, plus get proper enclosures rather than bastardized ones out of grow tents....... High 5 figures to low six figures.
if they are sub-contracting work out to local print farms there's going to be gak for quality control and packaging quality control.
That sounds like a lot more money than I assume PP has available for investment.
There are also recurring PPE costs, extra electricity costs from ventilated enclosures, an air purifier in the space as backup. Screen protectors for the LCD. Gaskets and/or gasket tape for around replaced screens. etc.
My reply at the end of this gor buried as the end post on page 3, and it bears repeating as it has not come up again.
So, what would you estimate the final cost per starter set would be for PP, after all these hidden expenditures?
Seeing all these accruing costs reminded me of a music video:
I have no idea of their demand level, so I can't answer that well.
assuming mass market, including wholesale accounts that are going to purchase in bulk: probably close or higher than 75 machines based on the size of war machine figures I have owned personally (time to print is a factor.) lets be generous and say they have 3 facilities (Europe, americas, asia/pacific.) Manpower is dependent on how much you really want to throw at it. assuming they can get bulk rates on PPE, and don't cheap out, plus get proper enclosures rather than bastardized ones out of grow tents....... High 5 figures to low six figures.
if they are sub-contracting work out to local print farms there's going to be gak for quality control and packaging quality control.
That sounds like a lot more money than I assume PP has available for investment.
Any non-zero amount is more money than PP has.
"Tabletop games are the only setting when a body is made more horrifying for NOT being chopped into smaller pieces."
- Jiado
Overread wrote: I wonder what layer height that is set to print at. If they are using new 8K resolution printers, 0.02 print height (which will take a lot longer to print than, say 0.05) then they can probably eliminate them. Some parts might even take using AA settings without too much loss of detail.
Yeah, that's my biggest question, is what printer was used, and what kind of settings? No clue if it's something like, say, a Phrozen Sonic 8k, or some other non-consumer model, or an older consumer model. We have no idea.
That said, even on my Sonic Mini 4k, I can get better results than that with AA and .03 layer height, easily.
Edited to add:
Looking at that more, I'm wondering if they're using an SLA printer rather than an SMSLA. E.g., a Form 1 instead of like an Elegoo Mars. Some of the lack of lines in certain areas (those curves are pretty smooth, which laser cure printers are better at), but extra lines in some (large flat areas, where laser cure printers are worse) makes me wonder about that. Or, worse, they could be really stupid and using an SLS (powder) printer, which could explain the "grittiness" if that's not just a bad primer and paint. Going SLS would be massively stupid for this application quite frankly, but somehow, it wouldn't surprise me.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Following the links in the Reddit post to get to the stream of the unpainted model, I think more of that terrible texture is indeed due to bad primer/paint.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/07/28 20:08:44
Overread wrote: I wonder what layer height that is set to print at. If they are using new 8K resolution printers, 0.02 print height (which will take a lot longer to print than, say 0.05) then they can probably eliminate them. Some parts might even take using AA settings without too much loss of detail.
It will depend more on wether they can dial in correctly the settings for the resin, honestly, IME. That said, many of the stuff I see in my own prints is absolutely invisible when you have the mini on hand, too.
But yeah, I see layers on the first pic, although the paint doesn't really help to actually see the model.
Following the links in the Reddit post to get to the stream of the unpainted model, I think more of that terrible texture is indeed due to bad primer/paint.
Ya the poster of the image said multiple times the texture is due to his bad paint job.
I would honestly expect them to go with laser based SLA as the life of those is much longer and better for a retail production setup I'd wager.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/28 20:22:43
