Fixing Faith: Blending The Best of Witch Hunters & White Dwarf for Sisters of Battle

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**SisterSydney**

My brain broke a little in the process, but I did it: Inspired by suggestions from multiple threads, especially this one, my half-formed ideas for a new Acts of Faith system – and a host of related rules – have congealed into what follows.

In brief (tl;dr):
- Faith Points are generated at the start of the game based on army size, regenerating only on natural AOF rolls of 6 or through acts of martyrdom.
- All units get both 6++ and +1 to Deny the Witch.
- Each Sisters unit gets its own unique Act of Faith (all different from the ones in White Dwarf, except for Repentia’s Spirit of the Martyr).
- Any Sisters unit can also use any army-wide AOF to gain Rending, +3” movement and Move Through Cover, +1 Strength, Feel No Pain, or Overwatch at full BS.
- The revised Canoness and new Palatine and Sister Signifer HQs have Adamantium Will (for a total +2 to Deny the Witch) and various buffs for friendly units within 6”.

Army Special Rules

[EDIT: At this point all these SRs have been rewritten and in some cases substantially changed -- scroll on down]

The power of faith can move mountains – or smash them flat.

Replace the “Army Special Rules” on pg. 94 of the White Dwarf Codex, and the individual Acts of Faith for each unit, with the rules below.

Updating the Army

Spoiler:

IN THE EMPEROR’S NAME, LET NONE SURVIVE

[EDIT: At this point all these SRs also have been rewritten and in some cases substantially changed -- scroll on down to see the current version or just click over to here

Armour of Contempt:

Spoiler:

Shield of Disgust:

Spoiler:

Sword of Hatred:

Spoiler:

FAITH POINTS

[EDIT: Based on solid criticism from the folks below, I'm in the process of totally rewriting Faith Points (and jettisoning Martyrdom) -- scroll on down to see how and why]

Calculating Faith Points

Spoiler:

After choosing your army, calculate your Faith Points. You gain one Faith point for
- every 10 models with the “Acts of Faith” special rule.
- every 20 models with the “Power of Prayer” special rule.
- each independent character with the “Leader of the Faithful” special rule.
In addition, you gain two Faith Points for each character with the “Commander of the Faithful” special rule.
Units from allied detachments that lack these special rules never contribute Faith Points to the army.
Each time a unit attempts an Act of Faith, you must expend one Faith Point. If the Act succeeds on a natural roll of 6, you get the Faith Point back; on a roll of 1-5, however, it is gone forever.
{Design note: Obviously, I prefer the Witch Hunters model of Faith over the White Dwarf model of rolling randomly each turn. That said, simply giving one Faith Point per squad encourages MSU spam. But the alternative of calculating Faith Points based on the point cost of the army means that vehicles and even allied detachments of non-Ecclesiarchical troops contribute Faith! Yes, adding up models and dividing by 10 or 20 may take a few minutes longer, but if you hate math that much, how did you manage to design an army in the first place?
Also, getting Faith Points back on a natural 6 seems like a good way to add a little random fluctuation and encourage players not to hoard Faith overmuch, without going so far as to roll randomly for points every turn.}

Martyrdom: Regaining Faith Points
The only way to gain new Faith Points during the game is through martyrdom. A sufficiently inspirational act of martyrdom occurs if and only if all the following conditions are met:
- an Independent Character or squad was removed from the board after losing its last Wound to an enemy attack. (A unit forced into Lethal Terrain, for example, does not count; neither does a unit that loses its last Wound to a scattered blast template from a friendly weapon).
- the unit had either the Acts of Faith or Power of Prayer special rules.
- the unit was not Falling Back at the time.
If all these conditions are met, you immediately gain back the same number of Faith Points as the destroyed unit contributed at the start of the game: one Faith Point for every 10 martyred models with Acts of Faith (rounding up), one point for every 20 martyred models with Power of Prayer, one point for every martyred character with Leader of the Faithful, and two points for every martyred character with Commander of the Faithful.
{Design note: As a way to represent the ebb and flow of Faith throughout a battle, I think the Witch Hunters’ Martyrdom rule was better both for game-play and for narrative than rolling every turn: Instead of Faith fluctuating randomly, it starts high, goes down, and then starts coming back as the situation gets worse and troops perform ever more desperate acts of martyrdom}.

ACTS OF FAITH

Acts of Faith: Tests of Faith

Spoiler:

Acts Of Faith: Independent Characters

Spoiler:

[EDIT: I'm still extremely eager for more comments on and critiques of the proposed universal and unit-specific AOFs below -- and for that matter whether we should have both universal and unit-specific Acts.]

Acts of Faith: Universal Acts

Spoiler:

Acts of Faith: Special Acts

Spoiler:

CANONESS, SIGNIFER, AND PALATINE

Canoness: 80 points

Spoiler:

Sister Signifier: 80 points

Spoiler:

Palatine: 50 points

Spoiler:

**shadowsfm**

The God-Emperor’s faithful are taught to scorn the psyker and to detest all his works.
A unit all of whose models have Shield of Disgust adds +1 to their Deny the Witch rolls. Note this bonus is separate from and cumulative with Adamantium Will: A model with both special rules would add +2.
However, no friendly psyker may ever target a model or unit with Shield of Disgust with any beneficial psychic power; such attempts automatically fail. Further, so strong is this anti-psychic effect that any psyker within 6” must subtract 1 from all psychic tests.

so the whole unit needs it for the "deny the witch" bonus?

Sword of Hatred:

huh? oh SR stands for Special Rules, duh.

FAITH POINTS

needs testing

ACTS OF FAITH

seems to easy, i'll test it out next time i play

Battle Sisters: Thy Sisters’ Keeper: A Battle Sisters Squad may attempt this Act at the beginning of any phase. If the Test of Faith succeeds, then the next time an enemy unit declares a charge against any friendly unit within 6”, the Battle Sisters may immediately fire Overwatch against that enemy as if they were being charged themselves. {Design note: Yes, this is equivalent to the Tau’s Supporting Fire. It seems an appropriately selfless thing for ordinary, non-elite Sisters to do.}

will the support units still be able to over watch when they also get assaulted?

exciting

**SisterSydney**

Thy Sisters' Keeper AOF:
My original thought was that the Battle Sisters Squad lost its supporting fire ability if it fired Overwatch in its own defense, but I decided that was a bit too harsh, much too complicated, and almost completely redundant: A unit can fire overwatch only once per turn, so the BSS must choice to protect itself or protect others in any given Assault Phase, and frankly a BSS that takes a charge is probably not going to be in any shape to help anyone else afterwards...

Shield of Disgust:
Yes, every model in the unit must have the SR to get +1 to Deny the Witch. This is a moot point for an all-Ecclesiarchy army, since every model has it, but it means a Sisters independent character can't join an allied squad of Battle Brothers and give them all +2 to Deny the Witch (they still get +1 from her Adamantium Will).
I realize this also means that Battle Brothers ICs can't join Sisters squads without breaking their Shield of Disgust, which may be too harsh -- perhaps I need to write it as "if the majority of the models in the unit have Shield of Disgust" they get the +1.

**shadowsfm**

i realise everyone has their own opinion on how faith points should work and to argue the point is like how no one ever can agree on other major franchises, like star trek and star wars.

after thinking about faith points and what the designers were trying to achieve, i realise that the universe of 40k is not cheerful and rosie, unlike other franchises, heroes don't always get their way and can even die. 40k is a dark and grim universe.

i think that part of the fluff is when the battle is at its climax, battle sisters have to realise the harsh truth, that they cant rely on faith.

my proposed rule on how much faith per game turn a player gets is as follows. count up how many units are left in the beginning of the players turn, (HQ count separately and units falling back don't count). for each unit, role a die, on a 3-6, add 1 to your faith pool.

the out come should be +/- 2/3 faith points vs. units. as the battle continues, the player realises that each round, he has less faith to spend. what i like about this system is that, while it stays true to the designers vision, it also balances well no matter how many units you brought to the game, unlike 5th edition where you only get 1-6 points per round.

i just realised, those 6 points are easier to spend as you lose units. maybe their intent was that the sister's faith gets stronger as the battle continues. in the case, what if you had infinite faith points and for each act of faith attempted, round one requires a roll of 6 to pass and each round following requires a lower number then the one previous. round 5 requires a roll of 2 and round 6 is an automatic pass

**ClockworkZion**

Honestly I made it about half the way through the list and I think it's just too many rules. That looks like 2 pages of Act of Faith rules to read and memorize and could use some heavy streamlining.

That's not even counting the amount of math you're relying on people to do the math with no problem every time. I know plenty of people who can't even build a list without some kind of Army Builder because they suck at math.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually requiring players to do large amounts of bookkeeping is generally a bad idea. It makes it easier for unscrupulous players to cheat and harder for people who are just not good at it to keep track of things properly.

Basically the more moving parts the more points of failure you have.

**Troike**

I can agree with Zion. A big positive of the previous system was their simplicity. Faith points are easily counted up, then used.

I think the main issue is the "every x models generates a faith point" thing. Seems like it could get awkward to keep track of. How about letting squad leaders do the generating? And if they die, their martyrdom generates another point? I dunno, I'm don't have that deep an understanding of the rules to offer you much help, here. Sorry, bud.

Though that said, I do like the inclusions of Deny the Witch. Obviously that just makes sense. And the unit-specific Acts of Faith seem nice, they help each unit to do its job.

**Mr Morden**

I like the current Acts of Faith - is just needs to scale with the army IMO. I'd just go with D6 per 1000ptsor something similar

so 01-1000 - D6 pts
1001- 2000 - 2d6 pts etc

**shadowsfm**

after a long battle and you have less then 1000 points of modals left, would you revert back to one die or keep both?

**ClockworkZion**

Since we seem to be sharing I guess I'll throw my hat in the ring. Here's my approach (forgive any overly verbose things as I only due it to try and close loopholes):

Army Special Rules

Spoiler:

Point Generation:

Spoiler:

Acts of Faith:

Spoiler:

Test of Faith: Uses the same rules as the WD Codex for faith tests and add the following sentence: Adepta Sororitas are limited to 1 Test of Faith per Act of Faith that the unit is attempting. (Example: If a Canoness is in a unit of Celestians they may only make one Test of Faith per Act of Faith they wish to use).

Adepta Sororitas have access to the following Acts of Faith:

Emperor's Might: Use at the start of the fight sub-phase. Adepta Sororitas models in a unit that passes a Faith Test to activate this Act of Faith have +2 Strength, but -1 Initiative.

Holy Fusillade: Use during the shooting phase. Adepta Sororitas models in a unit that passes a Faith Test to activate this Act of Faith gain the Twin-Linked special rule on their weapons. This may not be used in conjunction with Divine Wrath.

Divine Wrath: Use during the shooting phase or at the start of the fight sub-phase. Adepta Sororitas models in a unit that passes a Faith Test to activate this Act of Faith gain the Rending special on all of their weapons. Weapons with the Armorbane or Melta special rules instead add +1 to their Penetration rolls. This may not be used in conjunction with Holy Fusillade. Additionally this ability does not affect close combat attacks from models who do not have close combat weapons (count-as close combat weapons, such as pistols do not count for the purposes of this rule).

Voice of the Emperor: Use at the start of the any phase. Units that contain models with the Adepta Sororitas special rule that pass a Faith test to activate this Act of Faith are immune to the effects of fear and pinning and can not be swept if they lose combat. They must still take tests when losing combat or suffering wounds from shooting.

Spirit of the Martyr: Use at the start of the fight sub-phase. Adepta Sororitas models in a unit that passes a Test of Faith who are removed as a casualty before they can attack may make half their total number of base attacks, rounded up at Initiative 1. Wounds inflicted from these attacks count towards the final combat result. (Example: a model with 2 base attacks would only get 1 attack if removed as a casualty would only receive 1 attack while a model with 3 base attacks would make 2).

Shield of Conviction: Use at the start of any phase. Adepta Sororitas models in a unit that passes a Test of Faith increase their Shield of Faith save to a 4+.

Repentia:

Spoiler:

I could probably go on by adding rules to the HQs and the like, but this is the crux of what I've got in mind.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
The idea is that the army runs on faith. As units die their faith is not lost but still buffs their fellow units (basically it's putting Martyrdom into the base of the mechanic).

**SisterSydney**

Thanks. There is a lot of good ideas here, especially:

ClockworkZion wrote:

At the start of each player turn you generate 1 point for every Adepta Sororitas unit in your list....
At the end of each player turn every unused point is lost

..,,

The idea is that the army runs on faith. As units die their faith is not lost but still buffs their fellow units (basically it's putting Martyrdom into the base of the mechanic).

This -- this is really elegant.

I'd thought a Martyrdom rule was necessary (as in C:WH) to represent how the Sisters perform ever more miraculous Acts of Faith as the situation gets more desperate. But with Clockwork Zion's approach, by holding the number of Faith Points per turn constant as the number of units still alive declines, the "density" of Faith Points increases, allowing each surviving unit more opportunities to work miracles. I think this is a brilliant way to handle it, far simpler than my proposal or than C:WH. Exalted!

But 1 Faith Point per unit per turn is probably too much (unless you make individual AOF much weaker), so:

shadowsfm wrote:
for each unit, role a die, on a 3-6, add 1 to your faith pool.

Except that instead of rolling 1d6 per turn for each unit currently alive, as Shadowsfm proposed, you roll 1d6 per turn for every unit you had in your army to begin with, regardless of how many are left, as in Clockwork Zion's system.

You'll notice people have now convinced me that Faith points should come and to every turn, as in 5th, rather than be a fixed quantity that declines (with some possibility for replenishment) over the course of the game. So, yes, I have completely reversed my position. +1 to me for willingness to change my mind.

People have also convinced me counting models is too much math. I still worry a little about MSU spam, though: how do you discourage players buying lots of minimum-size units to generate lots of Faith Points that they then spend on a couple of big, powerful units?

**ClockworkZion**

SisterSydney wrote:
Thanks. There is a lot of good ideas here, especially:

ClockworkZion wrote:

At the start of each player turn you generate 1 point for every Adepta Sororitas unit in your list....
At the end of each player turn every unused point is lost

..,,

The idea is that the army runs on faith. As units die their faith is not lost but still buffs their fellow units (basically it's putting Martyrdom into the base of the mechanic).

This -- this is really elegant.

Thanks! I want to get into games development someday so it's nice to hear I don't suck at it.

I think it helps that you count out how many faith points you get when you make the list and just reset it each player turn (though that can easily be changed to game turn for balance).

SisterSydney wrote:
I'd thought a Martyrdom rule was necessary (as in C:WH) to represent how the Sisters perform ever more miraculous Acts of Faith as the situation gets more desperate. But with Clockwork Zion's approach, by holding the number of Faith Points per turn constant as the number of units still alive declines, the "density" of Faith Points increases, allowing each surviving unit more opportunities to work miracles. I think this is a brilliant way to handle it, far simpler than my proposal or than C:WH. Exalted!

Thanks again! I've been toying with the idea of writing a fandex. I may do so if the digital one sucks.

SisterSydney wrote:
But 1 Faith Point per unit per turn is probably too much (unless you make individual AOF much weaker), so:

shadowsfm wrote:
for each unit, role a die, on a 3-6, add 1 to your faith pool.

Except that instead of rolling 1d6 per turn for each unit currently alive, as Shadowsfm proposed, you roll 1d6 per turn for every unit you had in your army to begin with, regardless of how many are left, as in Clockwork Zion's system.

You'll notice people have now convinced me that Faith points should come and to every turn, as in 5th, rather than be a fixed quantity that declines (with some possibility for replenishment) over the course of the game. So, yes, I have completely reversed my position. +1 to me for willingness to change my mind.

People have also convinced me counting models is too much math. I still worry a little about MSU spam, though: how do you discourage players buying lots of minimum-size units to generate lots of Faith Points that they then spend on a couple of big, powerful units?

That helps a bit I think, but in large games that's a lot of dice and not much benefit for the player since they have to not only make Faith Tests but then test on every unit just to get Faith Points, that's too random in my mind. Changing Faith Points resetting every game turn is too strong (which I don't see as it starts with only enough points to basically use 1 per unit, that you have to test to use, or multiples per unit that keep other units from activating Acts of Faith and eventually let's you stack multiples but none of those powers are tremendously powerful as the rending and re-roll powers are abilities that can't be used on the same unit at the same time.)

And I realize that I forgot a key note about the Acts of Faith: They expire at the end of the phase.

**shadowsfm**

i feel like we are heading in the right direction. cheer!

That helps a bit I think, but in large games that's a lot of dice and not much benefit for the player since they have to not only make Faith Tests but then test on every unit just to get Faith Points, that's too random in my mind. Changing Faith Points resetting every game turn is too strong (which I don't see as it starts with only enough points to basically use 1 per unit, that you have to test to use, or multiples per unit that keep other units from activating Acts of Faith and eventually let's you stack multiples but none of those powers are tremendously powerful as the rending and re-roll powers are abilities that can't be used on the same unit at the same time.)

And I realize that I forgot a key note about the Acts of Faith: They expire at the end of the phase.

what are you talking about? in large games, only 1/3 need to use their act of faith anyway. in round one, none will use their act of faith unless there was a "run faster" or "move through cover." in round two, not many will have line of sight but retributors and dominion squads, and by the time you are round 5 you have already lost 2 thirds your army. so only round 3 and 4 will be dicey on how to spend your faith points. or did i miss read your post?

or are you saying gaining faith points ever player turn is too often and should be every game turn and lost at the end of the game turn? that i can agree with

**ClockworkZion**

shadowsfm wrote:
i feel like we are heading in the right direction. cheer!

That helps a bit I think, but in large games that's a lot of dice and not much benefit for the player since they have to not only make Faith Tests but then test on every unit just to get Faith Points, that's too random in my mind. Changing Faith Points resetting every game turn is too strong (which I don't see as it starts with only enough points to basically use 1 per unit, that you have to test to use, or multiples per unit that keep other units from activating Acts of Faith and eventually let's you stack multiples but none of those powers are tremendously powerful as the rending and re-roll powers are abilities that can't be used on the same unit at the same time.)

And I realize that I forgot a key note about the Acts of Faith: They expire at the end of the phase.

what are you talking about? in large games, only 1/3 need to use their act of faith anyway. in round one, none will use their act of faith unless there was a "run faster" or "move through cover." in round two, not many will have line of sight but retributors and dominion squads, and by the time you are round 5 you have already lost 2 thirds your army. so only round 3 and 4 will be dicey on how to spend your faith points. or did i miss read your post?

In the system I proposed their is a community group of Acts of Faith everyone (except Repentia who are limited to one) has access to. Making people dice of to generate faith and then roll to see if they can use it just comes across as too much random that can unfairly screw players over. I think you missed the post I made with the rules as how I'd write them.

**shadowsfm**

ho, i saw it, it's 1am and words aren't making sense anymore

just realized the disadvantage of having sisters of battle using an act of faith list that all units can use. battle sisters, retributors, and dominion squads become even less unique from each other

**SisterSydney**

Shadow, I absolutely agree about giving each squad a unique flavor, which is why I suggested having both a C:WD-style set of AOF the whole army can use and a unique AOF for each unit. (By the way, one of those army-wide Acts does give +3" move and move through cover, so you would want to use it on turn one).

As for Clockwork's point about rolling Too Many Damn Dice (the curse of the whole Warhammer system), I realize there's a more elegant solution to having 1 faith point per unit but not wanting too many AOF per turn: make AOF rolls ("tests of faith") harder.

Also, I agree that the AOF should renew every game turn, not every player turn. So that should keep things under control too.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS: I'm still worried about encouraging MSU spam, though...

**Mr Morden**

Apparently according to a source in this thread they might have tweeked things already

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/450/554140.page

**SisterSydney**

Thanks, I hadn't seen that. But that sounds like they're just fixing the egregious scaling issues with the current 1d6 Faith Points per turn system.... We're trying something a bit more ambitious here, I think.

**Lynata**

ClockworkZion wrote:Honestly I made it about half the way through the list and I think it's just too many rules. That looks like 2 pages of Act of Faith rules to read and memorize and could use some heavy streamlining.

Troike wrote:I can agree with Zion. A big positive of the previous system was their simplicity. Faith points are easily counted up, then used.

Have to agree with these two. I'd prefer a shorter list of, say, 6-8 Acts of Faith, at least 2/3rd of which should be universal for all SoB. Plus, less special rules, with easier explanation.
In previous codices, everything regarding Acts of Faith fit on a single page (in fairly large letters, and including artwork) - this is something I feel should stay, as it makes it easier to remember how the army works for player and opponent alike. There's enough rules in the basic game to remember already as is.

SisterSydney wrote:I'd thought a Martyrdom rule was necessary (as in C:WH) to represent how the Sisters perform ever more miraculous Acts of Faith as the situation gets more desperate. But with Clockwork Zion's approach, by holding the number of Faith Points per turn constant as the number of units still alive declines, the "density" of Faith Points increases, allowing each surviving unit more opportunities to work miracles.

It's an elegant solution, and I would favour a "static pool" more than the initial idea of one that gets depleted as the game progresses - other players have already mentioned how the latter used to affect AoF usage in 3E by "alpha striking" their FP, which I feel was a poor representation of how faith would work in the fluff, and hence am sceptical towards a return.

I'd still love to see something reflecting your martyrdom rule - the death of their Sisters spurring the survivors to ever greater feats of prowess - in the game beyond a simple consolidation (as that is not a very "obvious" representation), but I have to acknowledge that this probably necessitates a depletable pool, which I'm still against. Besides, in a way, this martyrdom inspiration is already represented by a bonus to confirm Acts of Faith when a squad has taken casualties, so all is good.

Mulling it over, I agree this suggestion is an elegant way for an alternate system. I'm not sure I actually prefer it, as the randomness of d6 rolls for FP is an interesting feature all by itself, and may well be necessary for balancing the potential power of Acts of Faith. A greater degree of randomness, whilst reducing the strategic element somewhat (unless one were to include "Plan B's" to address failed AoF), would allow for more powerful Acts of Faith. And, as shadowsfm said, faith just isn't something to rely on.

shadowsfm wrote:just realized the disadvantage of having sisters of battle using an act of faith list that all units can use. battle sisters, retributors, and dominion squads become even less unique from each other

Isn't that the point? They're all Sisters Militant with identical upbringing and largely similar training, just different focuses in later education. I don't think they should behave more differently than, say, Devastator Marines do to Tactical Marines.

Except for something as special as Repentia or the Canoness, maybe.

**SisterSydney**

I really like the idea of a unique AOF for each squad , though, not only the Repentia & leaders; it gives each unit so much character in a way those steroid-addled, Codex Astartes-up-the-arse Space Marines don't have. I Ike the idea that Retributors are distinct from regular Battle Sisters than Devastators are from Tac Marines.

As for spicing up AOF with a little randomness, but not so much it's a crapshoot (as in the WD codex), I agree with Clockwork that it's unduly cumbersome to first roll for the number of Faith points you get and then roll again for each AOF. I think playing with the odds of the AOF roll is the way to randomize.

**Asmodai Asmodean**

Good effort in making this fluffy and well thought out. I like the faith system overhaul but unfortunately none of the acts of faith additions are impactful on the meta.

6+ army wide invuln is pretty useless. There's a reason nobody takes combat shields.

Acts should be impactful but a trade-off between offense, defense and utility.

Two Offensive acts:

Re-roll to hit, Ignores Cover

Rending, Shred

Two Defensive acts:

Save becomes invulnerable

Unit becomes Fearless / gains FNP

Two Utility Acts:

Unit may run 2d6 instead of 1

Unit may reroll failed charge distance

**SisterSydney**

I had a slightly different set of army-wide AOF, but a similar concept:
- one offensive/melee (+1S)
- one offensive/shooting (rending)
- one defensive/all purpose (FNP)
- one defensive/shooting (overwatch at BS4)
- one movement (+3" and move thru cover).

How does that balance (or lack thereof) strike you?

AOF (+1S, rending, FNP, +3" and Move Thru Cover, Overwatch at BS

**shadowsfm**

while i like syd's faith point idea, i think we still need to bounce off ideas for acts of faith and preforming faith tests, until we think up something that feels right

**SisterSydney**

Yeah, there is still a lot of work to be done. But the collective brainstorming (and constructive criticism) here has already improved things a lot from my initial idea.

**shadowsfm**

SisterSydney wrote:

- one movement (+3" and move thru cover).

think i'll hit that with the nerf hammer and say "move through cover and reroll die for running during shooting phase" and give it to the dominion squad

the rest are fine, but i wouldn't use those as army wide rules. army wide rules would be support rules, like "deny the witch 5+" or ... "enemy that deep strike near a sister unit needs to do a leadership test, if they fail, roll on the mishap table," (or something)

seraphim need an act of faith "if passed can assault after deep strike"

**Mr Morden**

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Good effort in making this fluffy and well thought out. I like the faith system overhaul but unfortunately none of the acts of faith additions are impactful on the meta.

6+ army wide invuln is pretty useless. There's a reason nobody takes combat shields.

Acts should be impactful but a trade-off between offense, defense and utility.

Two Offensive acts:

Re-roll to hit, Ignores Cover

Rending, Shred

Two Defensive acts:

Save becomes invulnerable

Unit becomes Fearless / gains FNP

Two Utility Acts:

Unit may run 2d6 instead of 1

Unit may reroll failed charge distance

Now I dopn;t play competative games for the most part but I find the 6++ save is just fine and fits nicely - proved very useful in last couple of games.

I do like the idea of a Fearless Act but also like the indivuality of the different acts for each type of squad - Frealess bubble with the command squad would be fitting.

**SisterSydney**

Oh, when I mean "army wide," I mean "any unit in the army can use them," not "they apply to the entire army at once." A single AOF that boosted multiple units at once would have to be very carefully designed and the only one I've thought up, "anathema," simply lets the Canoness give everyone in 6" "preferred enemy" against a single enemy unit, which seems manageable.

shadowsfm wrote:
SisterSydney wrote:

- one movement (+3" and move thru cover).

think i'll hit that with the nerf hammer and say "move through cover and reroll die for running during shooting faze"

Yes, +3" guaranteed is probably too much. Howzabout ",ove through cover and reroll die for either running or charge distance" (remember you can't do both in the same turn).

seraphim need an act of faith "if passed can assault after deep strike"

Interesting. That seems like a very specialized AOF, though: Seraphim don't always Deep Strike and the ones that do don't always want to assault In fact I've read some posts arguing very strongly you should not assault with Seraphim at all, but rather jump close, stand off and shoot the enemy with hand flamers etc., then pray they're too mangled to charge you back. Hence my proposed AOF for Seraphim, "Leap of Faith," which lets them move away from an incoming charge. In fact I said ' move 6" 'but that's probably way too much & needs nerfing....

**shadowsfm**

with seraphim you treat them as not only as gunslingers, but also having two melee weapons, right? and they have "hammer of wrath" now too

**SisterSydney**

Yeah, I think all jump infantry have "hammer" and all two-pistol models have "gunslinger" now and an extra melee attack. So those aren't unique Seraphim things. Also, hammer of wrath plus WS4 S3 T3 I3 (I4 in the old dex) does not a hardcore assault squad make, even with three attacks on the charge.

**Furyou Miko**

Haven't got the wherewithal to actually go through your suggestions now, but why split Shield of Faith into two rules with strange names? Shield of Faith is a direct reference, and while Armour of Contempt sounds kinda cool, Shield of Disgust sounds awful. Why not just add the +1 DtW to Shield of Faith and be done with it on that note?

**SisterSydney**

You're probably right. I was kinda obsessed with having one for each line of the "my armour is contempt, my shield is disgust, my sword is hatred" credo, but I can't really see a case where 6++ would be appropriate but +1 DTW wouldn't be, or vice versa.
I'm going to rewrite a streamlined version soon -- probably not today though since I have two articles to write & grad school in the pm for which I haven't actually done the reading.....

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Still seeking input on specific Acts of Faith and on the exact mechanics of Tests of Faith, but I also wanted to cross-post the new army special rules from my Ecclesiarchal forces sub-list as revised based on y'all's input:

ARMY SPECIAL RULES

Armour of Contempt

Spoiler:

Improvised Weapons

Spoiler:

Power of Prayer

Spoiler:

Sword of Hatred

Spoiler: