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I've been reading up on DE while thinking about getting back into the swing of things, and after perusing the great fountains of advice, I seem to have come to a disappointing conclusion regarding DE HQ's:

Take Haemonculi. If you still have points, maybe take the Baron for +1 first turn goodness. Or...more haemonculi. I've never actually played a game with DE, and havent played any game in years now, but going through the codex these are my new-guy first thoughts:

My analysis:
Haemonculi give FNP. If you have even a single CC unit in your army, he's the best choice to accompany. If you have more than one...give them haemonculi too. If you don't, he's got all the cool toys. All of them. Crucible, one-shot pies of awesome, liquifier gun, shattershard...

Looking at the others:

Archon. Sure he's good at CC, but by the time you've bought the field + agoniser, I'd rather have a squad of incubi that would do the same thing better. Actually, a 5-squad of wyches with an agoniser is better.

Court of the Archon is... Why? What good could possibly come from any of this?

Succubi. She's better at CC than the Archon, gets drugs for free. Dodge isn't as good as a shadowfield, I guess. Still not appreciably better than a 5-squad of wyches with an agoniser.

Lelith. Sure she's badass, but also absurdly expensive. Against Tau she might make 13 power weapon attacks in one turn, but then then so would 7(!) incubi, and they have S4.

Kheradruak. He's a mandrake, so naturally he's totally useless. I guess he could be used in combination with mandrakes to appear from reserve with them and allow the squad to shoot. Man, wouldn't that be great?

Drazhar. Even more badass than before. Also, 230 pts.

Vect. The Space Pimp now chokes b!tches on foot. Maybe they'll pay him enough to make back his 240 pts.

Lady Malys. Repositioning might be handy, but otherwise I don't see the point. Or why she's worth 130 of them.

Baron. He helps you go first for 100 pts. Dash says thats a good trade; who am I to argue with that?

Urien. He seems pretty cool if you're going for a flavory list of wracks + grotesques, since he passes around extra tokens to make up for the fact that he costs as much as the 3 haemi's you're giving up to get him. Otherwise...meh.

The Duke. I want him to be awesome. More choice for combat drugs is cool. Maybe deep striking is cool (maybe). Sticking him with a bunch of trueborn with splinter cannons + shardcarbines also has potential. He seems decent in CC. I would like all of these things, but generally you can't get any 2 of these benefits to help 1 list, and they're probably not worth 150(!!)

Basically, my complaint is that none of the options act as a force multiplier of any sort except the haemi's. While there are some of the most skilled single-combatants in all of 40k to be found here, the same can be said of much of the army, and I'm not sure I see the advantage. The idea of haemi's being the sole HQ in a non-coven list bothers me though, so I really want to be wrong. Please, show me why I'm wrong...

Naturally, my response is only a personal opinion thing.
Haemonculi are almost a must-take, yes, but in any game of 1000+ points you should strongly consider filling both HQ slots anyway, and I can't think of very many lists that seriously require 4-6 haemonculi.

That said, it seems to me that the other HQ slot can be filled by a variety of things depending on the role you want.
I've enjoyed a lot of lulz with an archon armed with a huskblade and a soultrap, going IC and multiwound-hunting. Yes, it costs a ton, but I've found that against the right type of enemy a properly equipped archon can become the MVP.
A more serious and competitive way to go is almost certainly an archon or succubus with an agonizer and some incubi bodyguards, of course. Such a unit makes a great assassin squad against otherwise tough-to-crack nuts (like anything with FNP, say).

Lady Malys is no slouch in close combat, without being a super-cost jaw-dropper. Since GW has officially stated that the people who claimed that a transport and its passengers count as two allocations instead of one are *wrong* (yay), that makes her reallocation power very useful indeed for a whole host of mind-games.

Lelith isn't very good, no.

Kheradruak is worthless too.

Drazhar... yeah, just take Vect if you have that many points.

Vect is an incredibly pimp beatstick, and he improves your chances of going first by more than the Lord Hellion does (something that is strangely often overlooked: A 75% chance of going first isn't bad. Not by itself worth 240 points, but put him with some nasty bodyguards and you can have him wreck face in higher-point games)

The Baron has received an incredible surge in popularity due to DashOfPepper endorsing him. He's useful, but he does need the right list: Either hellions or beastmasters present. Depending on what you run, that might not be viable.

The Duke is so, so sexy on paper. I would bear the Duke's children if I could. But ultimately, it's very hard to capitalize on all of his strengths without using some very wonky first-turn running around ("So I'm going to field him with this trueborn squad, and then run him over to join these wyches the first thing he does..."), and that's what makes him probably not worth it unless you're running a very combat drug-heavy list and you've had really poor luck with drugs in the past ("yay. better fleet. again.")


So, yes, while you should take 1-3 haemonculi in a list, I say that the other HQ choice should be filled by one of the various other HQs, such as an achon or succubus to beat face, the Lady to reallocate units and beat a little face, the Baron to go first a little more often and increase the surviveability of hellions or beastmasters, or the High Pimp of Commorragh to go first in 3/4ths of your games and show your enemy how a dark eldar keeps his Pimp Hand strong.


Another thing to consider is various mindgame options. There's something to be said for target saturation, but there's also something to be said for bait: Something JUST expensive and dangerous enough that the enemy will water at the mouth when looking back and forth between it and all his long-range dakka, but JUST cheap enough that it doesn't set the rest of your army back if it's blown away by turn one as much as it would set you back to have two or more OTHER options blown away. This is something that archon/succubi do very well: Give them some form of bodyguard, hype up what they can do when they get up close and personal, and the enemy will want to attack them with a disproportionate amount of firepower, letting your other forces circle around, close in, and go for the kill.

Of course I'm no expert, so what do I know?

Well, IMHO, I think you're putting together a list without really knowing what style you want to play. I agree with a lot of your analysis, but let me give you my thoughts about a few of the HQ units.
Haemie's are a great choice for WWP armies, obviously. Your list will probably have wracks, wyches, beastmasters, reavers, talos, chronos, plus some other goodies. Nicely themed for a coven list too.
Take the duke for Raider-spam/Venom-spam armies. Wyches in raiders will also benefit from his drugs re-roll & everything can deep strike (use at your own risk). Note that the wording is can & not have to. And, if you don't have trueborn or warriors, then you can stick him in any unit he can join. My duke list has plenty of Raiders, Ravagers, Venoms, Wyches, and he's in a raider full of trueborn with 7 carbines & 2 cannons. That's 29 poisoned (3+) shots, and all 3 benefits in one list.
Take the Baron for Hellion-spam. They are tricky to get right, but I've seen them used to great effect.
Don't underestimate Malys' rules. The ability to redeploy units at the start of the game is flat-out awesome. Name 3 other characters who can do that. Not to mention that 130pts is really cheap for a HQ choice. Plus, she can give those GK jerks the proverbial finger with her Crystal Heart.
And that bare-bones Archon with agonizer & shadow field is still only 110pts. Yes, him & a retinue of Incubi is expensive, but will carve through MEQs like paper.
Finally, don't get too hung up on FNP. Yes, it's nice to start the game with it, but too many things will punch right through it where the DE are concerned. It helps with survivability, but that's about all.

Seeing as how you havent even played a game with DE, why not just go out there and play some then actually give some criticism.

5 wyches better than a tooled out Archon? Hardly.
5 Incubi would lose a fight with a toold out Archon who is less points.

You are right about Haemons. They are goo and could have a place in any list. They are cheap and can be effective. But, an Archon with Incubi retinue can grab the Pain Tokens very fast and dont need a Haemon.

Lady Malys is awesome for her points. Archon statline, move units around, immune to psychic attacks, invuln save. Shes great. Not going to kill people as effectively with as an Archon, but she is reliable. Her skills and abilities more than make up for her point cost.

The Duke. He can be used in a couple of themed lists. RJB and WYch heavy lists will love him. Raider spam can love him. If you tailor your list to him, you will be thinking 150 points is too cheap!

The Baron. Hellions are pretty "meh." Sticking him with a huge squad sounds nice, but very expensive. You could throw him in with some other units for the stealth. He is relatively cheap and the +1 roll is nice. Hes decent but I think there are better ones out there.

Kheradruakh is just not very good. No IC so he CANT join a unit of Mandrakes. He's a head hunter but cant kill anyone because he just isnt that good.

Lelith. Too expensive. S3 is not kind to her. Good to tarpit units. But i dont need a 175 point tarpitter.

Urien. Good if you theme the list around him. Has the ability to grant FC to multiple units right off the bat. Upgrade the Grots to S6, S7 with FC. He's good in my opinion. He wont die very easily either. Very hard to kill. I dont like the negative rap he gets

Drazhar. Better in the last codex. Should be an upgrade to Incubi. If you have 230 points, find 10 more to use Vect. That simple. My favorite character in 40k, just not worth it.

Vect. Simply awesome. Can kill anyone in the game. 4+ to seize is great. Nice little shooting attack to boot. He will slice and dice in CC and kill anyone.

Haemons are not the end all be all. Certainly they are good. They are cheap and can be very effective. But, they are not the best in any way. Just like any list or game you play, you have to use everything in cohesion with one another.

You've never played a game in years, but you have come to disappointing conclusions? I love that. Play some games and then say whether something is good or not.

-DElder

The beat sticks in the DE codex are not nearly beaty enough to justify their point cost while taking into account their fragility. Too much beat and your squad will be left out in the open for a round of devastating shooting.

Archons are ok, you can take one and go HQ hunting. The best thing they do is kill enemy HQs before they can strike back.

Most of the special characters are garbage.

succubus looks good but is really only there for a fun small game

Haemi's are awesome.

OP, greetings!

I'm chiming in here because this is actually a thread that I haven't participated in a discussion for before.

I tend to disagree with most people, and am going to just continue the trend here.

My premise is this: My *personal* taste in HQs are for force multipliers. I like cheap redundancy in my armies, but that is neither the *only* tactic, nor necessarily the best one if your own tastes don't run parallel to my own. Here's my breakdown of HQs.

Archon: A squad of Incubi do *not* do what an archon does, but better. He's got some extremely nifty tricks that have been elaborated on in-depth on Dakka. He's extremely versatile, monstrous in close combat, and depending on the wargear and setup thta you give him and the unit he's with, can become even more monstrous.

Court of the Archon: Useless.

Succubi: You can't compare a troop choice's utility to an HQ - 40k is not a game of comparing different force org units to each other and picking the ones you think are the best. A succubi is *also* extremely useful, again dependent on where you put her.

Lelith: She's been sadly nerfed in the new codex, and I can't see justification for using her in her current form.

Kheradruak: Useless.

Drazhar: He has some very nifty tricks, and can be used to snipe out ICs, or cause terrible carnage to the unit he's fighting against. He is 230 points, but if you're using Incubi, then you're already not trying to create a cheap MSU army - Powerful units aren't a bad thing.

Vect: He's monstrous in close combat, but I take issue with his seizing on a 4+. Dark Eldar need to deploy quite differently between going first and second, and deploying to go second is disadvantageous if you seize. Deploying to go first when you lost the roll to go first in the hope of seizing is EXTREMELY dangerous if you don't seize. I don't like characters with special rules that are paid for in points but that aren't advantageous, and the seizing on a 4+ is part of what makes him cost 240 points - and I just can't justify that as a useful rule.

Baron Sathonyx: He's cheap, he gives +1 to go first, he gives offensive and defensive grenades to the unit he's with, which is useful for assault units needing it (not wyches obviously since they already have plasma grenades), and gives +1 cover save. Precisely what I think is a good force multiplier for a unit of beasts - which have neither offensive nor defensive grenades, and are multi-wound T3 on the important stuff - making a 3+ cover save quite valuable.

Lady Malys: Its not the ability to reposition D3 units that makes her solely useful. Its paying 130 points to get SEVEN attacks on the charge from an HQ. Given that she's S3, without the ability to boost it via combat drugs, she's useful in close combat, but not a nightmare. Having the ability to reposition (including placing in reserves) D3 units is worthwhile. Clustering a a couple ravagers in a corner to make an enemy deploy accordingly, then moving them 48" away (or somewhere to get side armour) is absolutely useful. A central deployment to go first, followed by redeploying trueborn or wyches in response to whatever your opponent has done trying to minimize your utility of those units is incredibly useful. It is perhaps the most useful addition to an alpha strike you can get. The Baron + Lady Malys is a powerful combination.

Urien Rakarth: Not many people are playing wrack armies because there are no wrack models yet. But in a wrack army, I would absolutely include him before any haemonculi. He's T5 - very few things can instant-kill him, and he heals a wound automatically every turn. Since he has a pain token, all wracks start with a pain token, and he gives D3 pain tokens at the start of the game - you can literally have FnP and Furious Charge on your entire assault wing from the beginning of the game. With careful positioning and his clone field, you can literally make him virtually unkillable in close combat.

Duke Sliscus: Deep-striking raiders aren't a benefit in any situation, and potentially improving combat drugs is a so-so proposition. I prefer ICs with a definitive edge, who bring something reliably tangible to the fight. He costs points that are not worthwhile.

So your complaint that no one is a force multiplier except for the haemy:

The Baron, Urien, Lady Malys and haemonculi are all clear force multipliers, and several other ICs are incredibly useful if your armylist and tactics match them. Can you toss Urien into a wych army and get a force multiplier? No. It depends on the army type that you choose.

You really don't like the Court of the Archon? I was thinking 3 Sslythes and a Lhamaean could go great with an Archon with an Agonizer (and a Clone Field) in a Venom. For 270 points, that is a startlingly nasty beat stick. Majority T5, Fleet, yet it has some nasty shooting. Maybe give it a Soul Trap with the specific intent of hunting MCs to warm him up.

EDIT: Wait a second... increasing his strength is nearly useless. Herp derp, nevermind.

DarkHound wrote:You really don't like the Court of the Archon? I was thinking 3 Sslythes and a Lhamaean could go great with an Archon with an Agonizer (and a Clone Field) in a Venom. For 270 points, that is a startlingly nasty beat stick. Majority T5, Fleet, yet it has some nasty shooting. Maybe give it a Soul Trap with the specific intent of hunting MCs to warm him up.

EDIT: Wait a second... increasing his strength is nearly useless. Herp derp, nevermind.

The court would be ok if every model wasnt 1+. You end up having to take a bunch of useless ducks like the Lhamaean. The ONLY thing she does is change the archon's splinter pistol into a stinger. OOO 2+ to wound pistol I might get to shoot once a game! Now if he could take flesh gauntlets....

Every model is... oh.

EDIT: And the Agonizer is somehow not a poisoned weapon? Fantastic GW.

DarkHound wrote:Every model is... oh.

EDIT: And the Agonizer is somehow not a poisoned weapon? Fantastic GW.

it was probably put in there in case the archon could take a shard carbine or something but clearly as the codex was rushed to print it is another thing that they didnt get to.

Agonziers would be SOOOO good if they were poisioned. or if they could still glance vehicles.

So much for that.

Dashofpepper wrote:
It depends on the army type that you choose.

DE Elder wrote:
Seeing as how you havent even played a game with DE, why not just go out there and play some then actually give some criticism

And therein lies the heart of the situation eh? My apologies if I came across a bit sarcastic. While my previous armies have been built from a hodge-podge of units slowly collected and then shaped into a list as I gain experience, this time around I'm looking to be a bit more focused from the outset. DE doesn't seem like the sort of race that rewards buying all the cool models and then trying to make a game out of them, so I'm looking to have at least the first 1500 pts set out before I turn cash into plastic. (Hence my inexperienced analysis.)

HQ selection seemed to be the only FOC section that Dakka isn't overflowing with information on, so that's why I asked.The feedback is great, I clearly hadn't thoroughly considered a few things, and you guys have presented me with lots of food for thought. I'm just trying to get a feel for how (I think) I want to play.

Actually, what I'm trying to do is

mynamelegend wrote:
....show your enemy how a dark eldar keeps his Pimp Hand strong

Brilliant.

My 10c on HQs, in order of good to bad:

1. Haemonculi: They're like those guys who roam through the stands during pro sports handing out peanuts only their confectionary consists of souls screaming in eternal torment. Cheap, effective, loads of builds, wracks as troops, what's not to like?

2. Baron: Big thing people miss is that he's not just good with Hellions. He has a PGL, so he can jump in with Incubi or Beastmasters just before the charge into cover. Heck, he can jump into just about ANY unit without plasma grenades and give them the same thing. Also defensive grenades + stealth if you want a unit in cover an edge. Everything on this guy is gravy, insanely good for his point cost.

3. Archon: I have alot of success with these using two rules of thumb: Keep his/her points down and build him/her with a plan in mind. My Shadow Field rolls are cursed but mathematically it's a solid piece of kit. Also, don't forget you can throw a Blaster on a BS7 model here.

4. Duke: Only problem with the Duke is, you end up building your army around him. Not really a major problem but he's best when you utilize most of his rules, the odd one out being deep strike which is a bit naff for DE. It's not like we have suicide melta units or anything, why bother with such imprecise methods when our speed does a better job? If you're Drug heavy and like dakka trueborn, he's solid.

5. Malys: She's a bit of a dark horse. Redeployment shenannigans, a possible 8 S4 power weapon attacks on a charge, what people usually ignore is the immunity to psychic powers. Grants, this either makes her incredibly useful or utterly useless, which is the problem.

6. The Succubus: Cheap. You can't complain about this choice because she's cheap and she's a capable beatstick.

7. Drazhar: Expensive? Yes. But he's a murder machine. Lack of an invul. save doesn't matter so much when you can pick and choose your fights and hang around in a unit.

8. Vect: Yes, expensive. And you're not going to see the Dais outside of Apoc. but you get one badass character for your buck and sieze on a 4+.

9. Lelith: Falls down through lack of synergy. Lack of drugs can hurt if you throw her in a Wych unit. Sure, with 2 pain tokens you're getting a bunch of S4 power weapon attacks and initiative insanity and a 3+ invulnerable. Straight up, she's a few too many points for what you get.

10. Urien: Speaking of a few too many points, why would you take Urien when you can take 3 Haemonculi? Pretty much the only way this works is if you want a large unit of grotesques but you pay for their upgrade. He's not horrible but... a bit iffy in my books.

11. The Decrapitator: Worst character ever. His fluff is really cool. His rules stink like post-digested blue cheese in a sewer full of toxic waste. He is the worst unit in 40K.

Kheradruakh literally makes me sad.

Yeah, the DE HQs are a bit disappointing.
I'd go for Haemies as they are the best force multiplies.
Second comes an Archon as she's still a monster in cc if configured correctly.
I stay away from the rest, no matter what.

DE Elder wrote:The Baron. Hellions are pretty "meh."

Hellions shoot better than warriors for the cost (counting the price of a raider in with warriors), getting 2 splinter shots out to to 30" counting movement, as opposed to a maximum of 18" with warriors in a raider, or ~26" if you move 12" and disembark them 2" more, in addition to hitting harder than wyches. All they lack is staying power and haywire grenades, otherwise they'd easily beat any other troop choices in terms of usefulness.

Dashofpepper wrote:Since he has a pain token, all wracks start with a pain token

That sounded wrong, so I just checked the codex, and don't see anything about that anywhere. Edit: wait, you mean the one wracks already start with, don't you? I misread that as "he gives every wrack unit an extra token", which is obviously incorrect.

Exergy wrote:

DarkHound wrote:You really don't like the Court of the Archon? I was thinking 3 Sslythes and a Lhamaean could go great with an Archon with an Agonizer (and a Clone Field) in a Venom. For 270 points, that is a startlingly nasty beat stick. Majority T5, Fleet, yet it has some nasty shooting. Maybe give it a Soul Trap with the specific intent of hunting MCs to warm him up.

EDIT: Wait a second... increasing his strength is nearly useless. Herp derp, nevermind.

The court would be ok if every model wasnt 1+. You end up having to take a bunch of useless ducks like the Lhamaean. The ONLY thing she does is change the archon's splinter pistol into a stinger. OOO 2+ to wound pistol I might get to shoot once a game! Now if he could take flesh gauntlets....

Oh wow, 3 poisoned(2+) attacks for ten points, what a terrible deal...

The court is basically just a better version of a beastmaster squad. It has or can get FnP on everything, has or can get FC on everything but the Sslyth, has 3-6 poisoned(2+) attacks, up to two flamer templates, and can get up to 20 S5 attacks and 15 S5 attacks, at I6 and I4 respectively, on the charge. Damage wise it's about equal to Incubi against MEQ, and much better against anything lighter (or at a higher T, like MC's, though neither is particularly well equipped for that). It can chew up hordes, and poses a serious threat to most vehicles (35 S5 attacks on stationary AV10 works out to about 6 glances and 6 pens).

I probably wouldn't take a court, but they're by no means as terrible as, say, mandrakes.

A lots has been said on this thread already so I can't add that much, but I will just add my 5 cents.
Haemies are definitely not always going to be the best choice, just because archons (and their respective special characters) are monsters in CC, I played a game against GK the other day, my archon charged a squad of 10 interceptors (7 helberds, my incubi would of been ripped to pieces before getting to strike!) and my incubi went of and assaulted an inquisitor squad (decimating it) and the archon killed 5 GK and ran the rest down. I guess what I'm trying to say is, give him an agonsier, CD and a shadow field, and with just average rolls he will rip through MEQ's...it just depends on you play style, I like to table my opponents (and often do) with all my wyches, trueborn, incubi and beast masters, in which case I take the baron and the duke the majority of the time (re-roll drugs is awesome, option to DS depending on your opponent
[awesome against parking lot IG] and the baron always hops with the beastmasters for extra killyness).
I'm just saying that you should go out and try all the different options before making your descison.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:Since he has a pain token, all wracks start with a pain token

That sounded wrong, so I just checked the codex, and don't see anything about that anywhere. Edit: wait, you mean the one wracks already start with, don't you? I misread that as "he gives every wrack unit an extra token", which is obviously incorrect.

We talking about Urien here? He starts with a pain token and gives D3 Wrack or Grotesque units an additional pain token. It's the "Father of Pain" rule.

So what Dash was saying is that between the token they get automagically and Urien, there's a chance of adding Furious Charge to your Wracks right off the bat.

I just want to say that the more I take Asrubel Vect, the more I win.

The winning however comes not from vects model, but from the seize initiative on a 4+.

That power alone is why i take him. I run Eldar and DE
ELDAR
Eldrad x1
Rangers x 6
Dark Reapers x 5
Dire avengers x 10
Wave serpent x 1
Wraithlord x 1

DARK ELDAR
Asrubel Vect x 1
Dias of Distruction x1
Kabalite Warriors x 9

1750p

That my friends is a potent combination that will destroy your meekly assembled army of soon be deserters.

Points of Interest
-If you go first Eldrad redeploys. (YAY) tricksez
-Id you dont you set up second (YAY) but sieze on 4+
-Dark R anti infantry
-Wraithlord anti Hq, anti hoard with 2 flamers, anti vehicleswith brightlance and missile
-pathfinders are anti Monstrous and HQ
-Wave S and DA are a rush bladestorm anti hoard or objective taker.

-Vect and squad are a floating shooty boat that is anti vehicle and anti montrous that can also get close for rapid fire. The 5 Dark Lances is (YAY)

Just some simple but awesome things about DE and Eldar (YAYYYY)

thread necro