Hello my fellow blessed by Nurgle! Another fine day without feeling pain.

I know there is some concern for Death Guard in 8th edition.

My opinion on the Death Guard not being able to take terminators etc with the <Death Guard> Keyword:

It's exciting.

It means nothing for the current index, we can still take everything without losing any bonuses and our bikes (which are unfluffy anyway) aren't over powered etc.

Though what this implies is in the near future all of this stuff could be getting their own special Death Guard version of these things, at least rules wise.

We already know that new Terminators are on the way. We could have Death Guard heavy weapon teams instead of havoks, which while will be similar will bring their own fluffiness to the table!

I am more excited than ever for these new Death Guard releases!

One concern I have is the pricing of Typhus points wise, compared to the Lord of Contagion. There is literally no point in taking the Lord over Typhus.... Except for that Beautiful model of course.

How is everyone feeling for our rotten yet loveable faction?

Link to Chaos index leaks:
http://imgur.com/a/A9lGq

Death Guard Havoks would be lovely, but I wouldn't count on it.

I was a bit disappointed initially re. Terminators, etc, but I think you're right. This is only the Index book ensuring all models have rules on 8th's release. In that respect, it could have been much worse for the legions.

I expect a full Death Guard Codex will be along fairly soon with all sorts of smelly goodness included.

Just a case of waiting it out til then.

Excited for it.

Well, i'm mostly hoping for a Death Guard release in the near future. Glimpses of Mortarion and the Death Guard Terminators that you mentioned seem to make this likely.

Personally i used to play my Army in a not very fluffy way, depending on Bikers, Raptors and Havocs a lot - all of which are no longer available to us. While i understand that Bikes and Raptors are gone, the removal of Havocs in general just makes it hard for me to even field a playable army right now. Personally i have no idea how to beat, let alone come close to an enemy gun line right now. New units like the Bloat Drones seem to be quite strong, but only time and some games will show, if they are actually able to balance the scales here.

So it seems that the 8th Edition brings a return to the multi-gods lists of old. Personally i suppose my Death Guard will simply be rebranded into the nurgle-themed Chaos Warband Heralds of Corrosion, so that i will be able to stick with my units of old. At least for now.

I think you are confused with the keywords Vyra; you can still take all those things in an 8th Death Guard army using different key words, you just won't get the benefits of the Death Guard keyword for them (not that there is many benefits for that keyword at this stage)


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Cool name though


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Heralds of Corrosion I mean

The only good feelings people appear to have are based on the hope that things will be better in the codex

Allow me to be the bearer of the Icon of Despair:

Our Mark does nothing, after seven editions of the game where the mark of a chaos god was a big deal, with statistic impacts that help unify our army, we now just get "Mark of Nurgle means they're dedicated to Nurgle

Plague Marines don't have access to Bolt Pistols for the first time since 2nd edition, despite our background explicitly stating that's our modus operandi

Lords of Corruption and the other DI characters have no options at all

Sure, things might get better with the new codex, but the truth is none of us have any idea, we can only work on the basis of what we have in front of us, and GW changing things so fundamentally in what is supposed to be a get-you-by interim list points to dark times ahead, especially when they backpedal on stuff we got only a few months ago in Traitor legions

Might the codex be better? Sure, but we shouldn't assume it will be.

 Rippy wrote:
I think you are confused with the keywords Vyra; you can still take all those things in an 8th Death Guard army using different key words, you just won't get the benefits of the Death Guard keyword for them (not that there is many benefits for that keyword at this stage)


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Cool name though


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Heralds of Corrosion I mean

Vyra's actually right, deathguard don't get access to those units. the entire death guard army list consists of..

Typhus,
Lord of Contagion,
Malignant Plaguecaster,
Noxous Blightbringer
Deamon Prince
Chaos Lord
Chaos Lord in Terminator Armor
Chaos Lord on Palaniquin of Nurgle
Sorc
Sorc in Terminator Armor
Plague Marines
Pox Walkers,
Chaos Cultists
Posssed
Hell Brute
Foetid Bloat Drone
Chaos Rhino
Chaos Spawn
Defiler,
Chaos Predator
Chaos Land Raider

so Death Guard is missing a LOT of staples, like Havocs (which are a bit of a kick in the nuts) Bikes etc.

that said, we know Death Guard are getting a lotta attention in the near future, so it's hard to say what that'll do. there may be some sort of "Plague Marine Heavy" in the works that'll explain the lack of Havocs for example (honestly I hope so. a foot heavy weapons team just seems a very death Guardy thing) we'll have to see, death guard are in for some intreasting times over all.

Your icon of depair was as bad a choice to bring to this thread Charax, as it is in a game of 7th

I have plenty of good feelings about Death Guard, my whole army except heldrake and obliterators fit in the Death Guard theme, but who cares they are not the key word to begin with (or even at all really)/

No ones Mark or chapter does anything yet, again, not a big deal as our Death Guard units already have those abilities baked in to our units. Plus GW already confirmed that chapter tactics etc will be in 8th, so this means nothing.

I was a little sad to see pistols go in 8th as well, but I don't really want to be paying the points for them now anyway, and I feel Plague Marines would be way too good if they all had them with new CC rules.

And I am assuming the codex will be better. I feel entitled to thanks to leaked termies and Mortarion.


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He isn't right BrianDavion, read the paragraph next to the Death Guard army list. It says that units from that may change the keyword <Legion> to <Death Guard>, it doesn't say that you can't take those other units in the same detachment using the Chaos and other key words though. It just says that they can't use the Death Guard faction keyword.

Thank you, Rippy, for the input.

The wording on p. 57 is somewhat unclear on this point, at least as far as i can see:

"The Heretic Astartes datasheets listed to the right can be from the Death Guard Legion. Those that have the <Legion> keyword on their datasheet can replace it in all instances with Death Guard. If a Heretic Astartes unit does not appear in the list to the right, it cannot have the Death Guard Faction keyword"

Now it would makes sense to me, that not having the Death Guard Legion keyword would also imply that it cannot be used in a Death Guard Legion Army.

But then again, what is the down side of not playing a Legion force? Clearly you would lose the new characters and models, and with them the only way to get thoughness 5 into your heretics. I might still have to look into the wording of the allies rule, but it might simply come down to an allied force of "new" Death Guard and "old" Death Guard to combine the new and old units.

I think the important word there VyRa is that it CAN not HAS TO replace it's <Legion> keyword.

As I understand it all Death Guard units also have the Heretic Astartes keyword.

So you could field all the generic stuff, plus Typhus and plague marines for example, as a Battleforged army as all units come from the same faction... Heretic Astartes.

It would only be that your Choas Terminator squad wouldn't benefit from Typhus' Nurgle's Gift Ability (which admitedly sucks)... though the plague marines would.

That is my understanding of the situation anyway.

Also the Chaos keyword, I agree with your assessment Alan.

Though Typhus can use the Nurgle's rot ability on himself as far as we can tell, so if he is rolling with the terminators it will get used on those targets anyway.

 Rippy wrote:
Also the Chaos keyword, I agree with your assessment Alan.

And I guess then that the Chaos faction keyword also allows you to slot a random Daemon unit into your Battleforged detatchment?

Let's hope that Forgeworld's upcoming Renegade Guard list entries also have the Chaos keyword.

There's less synergy between units if we go with the higher level faction keyword, but more variety to choose from.

Though Typhus can use the Nurgle's rot ability on himself as far as we can tell, so if he is rolling with the terminators it will get used on those targets anyway.

True enough. Smaller bubble (1 model as opposed to 7), but yeah.

so Death Guard is missing a LOT of staples, like Havocs (which are a bit of a kick in the nuts) Bikes etc.

Ironically this IS a return to the 3.5 list. In the old 3.5 Death Guard couldn't take Lascannons, Heavy Bolters, Missile Lanchers, or Autocannons for units on foot with the Mark of Chaos.

With this line in the old 3.5 book. "The Primarch of the Death Guard Mortrarian, trained his warriors to fight on foot relying on their bolters to cut down their enemies,. Loyal to his teachings down the centuries..". As a result you couldn't Mark Bikers or Raptors with the Mark of Nurgle.. Havocs SHOULD be allowed so long as they use Plasma or Meltaguns, so to deny them outright is weird.

Plague Marines don't have access to Bolt Pistols for the first time since 2nd edition, despite our background explicitly stating that's our modus operandi

Actually 3.5 didn't have CSM with Bolt Pistols.. You had a CCW and EITHER a bolt pistol or Boltgun.. But DeathGuard could use their Bolter as a CCW/PM due to True Grit due to just being so incredibly skilled with it.

I think we will see re-worked havoks in the Death Guard codex, with different weapon options.

Well I'm really glad I held off on my FW order of more DG conversion kits and autocannons.

On the other hand, this has totally deflated my hype for 8th. Yeah, we might get better stuff later... that's been the motto of Chaos Legion players since 5th edition. I'm getting really tired of waiting, literally a decade at this point, for the better stuff to actually come.

I guess the upside is I'm going to save a bunch of money not buying all the new gak that I was planning to.

My DG army just lost all marked Lord builds, 2 units of Havocs, 5 Terminators with axes and combi plasma, Its bikes, and its obliterators, Nurgle Spawn, 2 Heldrakes and my Daemon Prince of Nurgle,.

Basically I have dirty marines. Not happy. Typhus with Cataphractii armor? that looks nothing like Cataphractii armor? Did they really not have time to write rules for Marks?

I was fine with just Counting my Havocs, Bikes, Terminators etc as Black Legion Marked Nurgle if I had to, but now half my army is just a paint scheme, and a gross, pestilent one at that.

Sure, my Loyalist White Scars lost their flavor too, but I can still field the whole army. My Orks mostly got better, I just lost 'Ard Boyz (which was a major theme for my lists).

Death Guard lost everything except Plague Marines (that I never used anyway) and zombies,

Didn't expect to see that so many death guard players had also turned into such massive shills as well. Do you not remember how GW were constantly bringing up how no models would be invalidated in there q&a's and such? Yet here we are. Half of my army is now completely unavailable to me, with absolutely no warning or logical reason.

Okay, let's assume that they release a new version of nurgle havocs, and both their kit and the terminator kit will have every single option that they could take ordinarily. What about my maulerfiend, heldrake and forgefiend that I have put a ton of effort into converting? Do you think they'll come back? How about my dark apostles, or my chosen or my vindicator? And don't just tell me to proxy them as another unit. I want my units to work how they bloody should work.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Plague Marines don't have access to Bolt Pistols for the first time since 2nd edition, despite our background explicitly stating that's our modus operandi

Actually 3.5 didn't have CSM with Bolt Pistols.. You had a CCW and EITHER a bolt pistol or Boltgun.. But DeathGuard could use their Bolter as a CCW/PM due to True Grit due to just being so incredibly skilled with it.

So what you're saying is:

They
Had
Access
To
Bolt
Pistols

...which is what I said.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
I think you are confused with the keywords Vyra; you can still take all those things in an 8th Death Guard army using different key words, you just won't get the benefits of the Death Guard keyword for them (not that there is many benefits for that keyword at this stage)


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Cool name though


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Heralds of Corrosion I mean

Vyra's actually right, deathguard don't get access to those units. the entire death guard army list consists of..

Typhus,
Lord of Contagion,
Malignant Plaguecaster,
Noxous Blightbringer
Deamon Prince
Chaos Lord
Chaos Lord in Terminator Armor
Chaos Lord on Palaniquin of Nurgle
Sorc
Sorc in Terminator Armor
Plague Marines
Pox Walkers,
Chaos Cultists
Posssed
Hell Brute
Foetid Bloat Drone
Chaos Rhino
Chaos Spawn
Defiler,
Chaos Predator
Chaos Land Raider

so Death Guard is missing a LOT of staples, like Havocs (which are a bit of a kick in the nuts) Bikes etc.

that said, we know Death Guard are getting a lotta attention in the near future, so it's hard to say what that'll do. there may be some sort of "Plague Marine Heavy" in the works that'll explain the lack of Havocs for example (honestly I hope so. a foot heavy weapons team just seems a very death Guardy thing) we'll have to see, death guard are in for some intreasting times over all.

You still have the same faction as they are csm however. You just do not get the benefits of say the nurgle psychic power that makes it harder to hit death guard.

You can call them whatever you want they just cannot be death guard

 Enginseer Kalashnikov wrote:
Didn't expect to see that so many death guard players had also turned into such massive shills as well. Do you not remember how GW were constantly bringing up how no models would be invalidated in there q&a's and such? Yet here we are. Half of my army is now completely unavailable to me, with absolutely no warning or logical reason.

Okay, let's assume that they release a new version of nurgle havocs, and both their kit and the terminator kit will have every single option that they could take ordinarily. What about my maulerfiend, heldrake and forgefiend that I have put a ton of effort into converting? Do you think they'll come back? How about my dark apostles, or my chosen or my vindicator? And don't just tell me to proxy them as another unit. I want my units to work how they bloody should work.

I hear you brother. It's grim. It's dark. Well, it's nothing new. And i suppose the Death Guard Codex won't bring Daemon Engines or Helbrutes back, let alone Bikers or Raptors. So basically we'll have to hope and wait for a new Codex CSM and hope, that they'll somehow add meaningful marks of chaos back into the game. Otherwise we're pretty much stuck playing dirty chaos undivided.

 Enginseer Kalashnikov wrote:
Didn't expect to see that so many death guard players had also turned into such massive shills as well. Do you not remember how GW were constantly bringing up how no models would be invalidated in there q&a's and such? Yet here we are. Half of my army is now completely unavailable to me, with absolutely no warning or logical reason.

Okay, let's assume that they release a new version of nurgle havocs, and both their kit and the terminator kit will have every single option that they could take ordinarily. What about my maulerfiend, heldrake and forgefiend that I have put a ton of effort into converting? Do you think they'll come back? How about my dark apostles, or my chosen or my vindicator? And don't just tell me to proxy them as another unit. I want my units to work how they bloody should work.

But all those things are available to you?

Guys keep in mind the way bonuses work now. Would it really be balanced for a mark to increase toughness or something similar to those units left out?

+1 for enemies to hit dg units is pretty nice, in play testing a terminator would become nigh impossible to kill if dg got them.


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 VyRa wrote:

 Enginseer Kalashnikov wrote:
Didn't expect to see that so many death guard players had also turned into such massive shills as well. Do you not remember how GW were constantly bringing up how no models would be invalidated in there q&a's and such? Yet here we are. Half of my army is now completely unavailable to me, with absolutely no warning or logical reason.

Okay, let's assume that they release a new version of nurgle havocs, and both their kit and the terminator kit will have every single option that they could take ordinarily. What about my maulerfiend, heldrake and forgefiend that I have put a ton of effort into converting? Do you think they'll come back? How about my dark apostles, or my chosen or my vindicator? And don't just tell me to proxy them as another unit. I want my units to work how they bloody should work.

I hear you brother. It's grim. It's dark. Well, it's nothing new. And i suppose the Death Guard Codex won't bring Daemon Engines or Helbrutes back, let alone Bikers or Raptors. So basically we'll have to hope and wait for a new Codex CSM and hope, that they'll somehow add meaningful marks of chaos back into the game. Otherwise we're pretty much stuck playing dirty chaos undivided.

You literally have all those things. Just none of them can be "death guard"....

You call me a shill and then list a bunch of bollocks about how you can't take anything in your army... Even though you can.
They are still death guard, the only reason they can't take the keyword is for balance, exactly as the poster said above me.

Also expect a new Typhus model, in cataphractii armour.


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What you have to remember is the Death Guard is a new faction. We have CSM armies, and can still take a CSM army. If that is what you want to do and call it Death Guard, it's Death Guard.

Again, i do see the reasoning behind the changes. They do make sense, both from a gameplay and fluffperspective. It's just a quite significant change to the army that i've played for the last ten years.

Call me sentimental.

But pouting won't change the facts, right?

So right now Death Guard is going to be a brand new, slow-and-sturdy, not-quite-CSM army, while vanilla CSM are going back to a very basic but flexible playstyle. Both of those are quite intresting and i still can use the models that i own for both of those armies.

I guess it's all a matter of perspective.

 Rippy wrote:

What you have to remember is the Death Guard is a new faction. We have CSM armies, and can still take a CSM army. If that is what you want to do and call it Death Guard, it's Death Guard.

But that's entirely the point. I can buy chess pieces and call them Death Guard, but that doesn't make it so. I don't mean to be moapy, but for people who have been waiting ten years for their army to come back, or who, like me, got into the hobby after ten years for only a glimpse of light, only to have our army taken away is a kick in the nuts. We've always had the choice to call our armies whatever we want, or play Space Wolves rules with CSM models, but that's not what we came back for. And right now we've been left with a 'counts-as' army, at best, or, at worst, we've ended up with a couple of divided armies. Having had a 2000 point Death Guard army a week ago, right now have a 750 points of Death Guard army, and a 1250pt CSM army. But I didn't want to play CSM, or else I would have for the 10 years I have been out of the hobby. And I think that it is very likely that DG will not get these units back with the codex release, as unit restrictions looks like one of the core ways Legions are to be 'flavoured'. They'll get Blight Terminators and Blight Havocs, but where does that leave the Terminators and Havocs that we have spent considerable time and money making WYSIWYG? In an army we never wanted to play.

Now, I think it's great that there are people here who are excited, as I was when the rules started to be released. And I can even see how this will be necessary to ensure that the Chaos armies are balanced. That was the issue with Traitor Legions, where DG got the best bonuses, and so were able to make all CSM units better. But I'm sure you can respect the concerns of those who feel hit in the nuts that they got shunted out of their army, and outside of the forthcoming Legion rules. Sure, we can call our army anything we want, but that's an empty comfort.


PS: I do feel fairly ripped off. It's becoming increasingly clear that GW gave a couple of Legions, namely Death Guard, extra love in Traitor's Hate to get people to buy into the army, only to have the rug pulled out from them. Yeah, you haven't played in 10 years, but here's some new flashy rules! You spent £500+ on your 2000pt army, and now you're down to 600pts, and have to buy another 1400pts! But it's ok. Those other models can be used. Just buy another 1000pts of those too, and then you have 2 armies! All for the low price of ... exactly what you would have paid to buy two armies. But with the extra benefit of getting one you didn't want!

Ok. Initial impressions.

The loss of Chosen, Terminators and Havocs in a stop-gap list raises some serious questions. It's something that makes very little logistical sense. It's something that is also a bit worrying - sure, we might be getting Death Guard Terminators - but what happens when we get Scarab Occult'd and wind up with a fixed configuration? What happens to the variants we've had for years before them. I have Lightning Claws, I have Combi-weapons, I have Reapers, I have Heavy Flamers, I have Power Fists and several different types of power weapons.

I'll be bloody pissed if our Faction Terminators end up with fixed Combi-bolters and power fists or something like that (similar to the Cataphractii kit not allowing Reaper Autocannons for SM despite the fact that FW Cataphractii upgrades INCLUDE Reader Autocannons).

It's an uncomfortable case of wait and see.

1 for enemies to hit dg units is pretty nice, in play testing a terminator would become nigh impossible to kill if dg got them.

You see, this I call tripe. Because we've seen hints of getting Faction Terminators - if we are supposedly getting Terminators already then that reasoning makes no sense - because our new Terminators are probably going to be tougher, have DR and benefit from the aura. If the concern is that T4 Terminators without DR would be too tough...uh....that's flawed logic knowing we're soon getting a T5 DR version.

I'm personally of the opinion that, until we see a faction book there is literally no benefit to Death Guard as a keyword. You really want to do something with Death Guard as a keyword? Ok, take Plague Marine Troops, take Typhus, stick nearby, enjoy. He's cheaper than the Lord of Contagion and far superior.

Reading through the Legion rules and it's even more WTF.

There's nothing stating you must take an all Death Guard detachment to have Plague Marines as troops. It just states that Plague Marines with the Death Guard legion keyword fill the troops role. WAT.

It's just going to come down to mix and match and a month or so of being 'meh'. We'll live. We were pretty meh until Traitor Legions came along. We've been pretty meh since the 4th ed codex.

Personally? Every time an imperial quips about sub-factions I want to slap them in the face. Death Guard have had a 'faction' identity since the Index Astartes article in 3rd edition. Our faction identity is just as old as Salamanders, Black Templars, White Scars, Raven Guard, Imperial Fists, Iron Hands and Crimson Fists. You could argue similar for Dark Angels and Blood Angels as they didn't become 'seperate' Codexes until 3rd ed (they were a shared book in 2nd). The difference is where our Factions got dumped by the wayside, theirs got fostered and grew more and more.

TLDR - as much as I love my Legion identity...feth it. I'll just abuse the faction keywords like everyone else for the time being. Make a few stacking bubbles with different characters - Daemon Princes are great for that, run them with respective different troop types nearby.

It's a shame Death Guard got a list that literally just looks like 'What the Studio army had painted up at the time' rather than what they've had since the IA article in 3rd edition. Let's hope the Faction book seriously fixes this or we see release day errata going 'Oops, our bad.'

 Rippy wrote:
You call me a shill and then list a bunch of bollocks about how you can't take anything in your army... Even though you can.
They are still death guard, the only reason they can't take the keyword is for balance, exactly as the poster said above me.

Also expect a new Typhus model, in cataphractii armour.


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What you have to remember is the Death Guard is a new faction. We have CSM armies, and can still take a CSM army. If that is what you want to do and call it Death Guard, it's Death Guard.

Do you honest to fething God think that they're going to give back those units I've listed? And no, my problem here is not going to be fixed by just "saying they're death guard". Whenever they do get legion tactics, the units I have listed won't benefit from them, nor will they have synergy with the rest of my list. So my dark apostle and chosen are miraculously weaker than the plague marines , that they apparently lead? They finally gave me rules for death guard with the traitor legion book, and now half my units have had those same rules ripped off of them for no reason, and you expect me to just shut up, sit down and take it?

Charax wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Plague Marines don't have access to Bolt Pistols for the first time since 2nd edition, despite our background explicitly stating that's our modus operandi

Actually 3.5 didn't have CSM with Bolt Pistols.. You had a CCW and EITHER a bolt pistol or Boltgun.. But DeathGuard could use their Bolter as a CCW/PM due to True Grit due to just being so incredibly skilled with it.

So what you're saying is:

They
Had
Access
To
Bolt
Pistols

...which is what I said.

I was going to be snarky in return.. But then I realized I read the wrong unit profile. I thought they had access but needed to swap out the boltgun for it.

 VyRa wrote:

But pouting won't change the facts, right?

Actually, raising concerns ferverently can influence things.

Remember their final FAQs for 7th and the backlash they got over the Drop Pod Door Walls, or the Dark Eldar Raider Passenger debacles? And how the final versions didn't include those in the end?

Remember the brief period where Abaddon couldn't become a spawn or daemon prince?

Remember in 3rd edition when they brought back Cult Terminators?

Or when Space Wolf players bitched so loudly at having to use the generic list in the rulebook that they gave them a WIP list one month after?

So, yeah, I beg to differ. Make enough noise and they can change things. They can errata them. They can FAQ them.

Sit here in complacency and nothing will ever change, guaranteed.

Anyone that didn't read GW's " Nothing will be invalidated" as "Technically, nothing will be invalidated" was setting themselves up for disappointment.
Technically DG didn't loose anything as you can use your troop plague marines and all the units you want in the same detachment.
Your army wasn't invalidated, they're just not 100% DG anymore, which has very little actual effect on your army.
Loyalists are technically still a thing, but anybody not convinced that the are going to be completely replaced by primaris is a hopeless romantic.

I'm in the camp of, if I want to play DG , I want to play DG, not DG and pepsi-cola DG. It's not technically gaming the system, but it sure feels like it to me.
I was under the impression that the index's were 8th version of vanilla codices, to be spruced up by campaigns and supplements, but it seems they're not meant to be taken as serious lists.
They're only there to have something to play with until they remake everything into small factions, that in the case of csm, will have new units with baked in marks instead of keeping marks as a general mechanic.
Which works fine I guess once we get those dexes rolled out, but in the mean time I'm finding the index to be a very poor replacement for vanilla 6th and the legion supplement.

Thing is, the Undivided Legions are still playable. It's anything with a Mark that is now pointless. That is what gets me more. I can wait for Legion rules. I can't just unpainted my Death Guard havocs, terminators, oblits heldrakes, Biker Lords etc. We have the restrictions of the 3.5 codex with the blandness of the 5th edition.

It's certainly odd what units we lost. Havocs seem a weird choice, and lacking access to generic terminators also felt weird. Oh, and no chosen.

So I guess we are getting unique variants of all the marine infantry we can use, which does make sense even if it seems really impractical. Maybe we just get plague marine variants for most? I could see plague marines coming with options to be fielded as some plague havoc equivalent. And plague terminators could effectively be both the chosen and terminators of the list (weren't most chaos terminators mentioned to be chosen at one time?).

The thing is, I'm just curious how many kits we will get. We've already got three characters, 2 units, and a monstrous creature. We will logically get at least our primarch and terminators as well. Not to mention nurgle demons will likely get 1-2 units.

Are we really going to get a unique havoc kit or chosen kit on top of that? All of the fast attack is gone for sure, and demon engines seem unlikely (unless those are demon release we can also use). I'm just worried our update will come and go and we will still be left with holes in our army.

The index itself looks pretty balanced, so I'm just waiting for the Death Guard codex and releases to see what else is going on.

SilverAlien wrote:


The thing is, I'm just curious how many kits we will get. We've already got three characters, 2 units, and a monstrous creature. We will logically get at least our primarch and terminators as well. Not to mention nurgle demons will likely get 1-2 units.

Don't count the Starter Box units as part of a Faction release. Remember, we didn't get chosen or cultists after Dark Vengeance. The Hellbrute took several years to show up. Orks never got their Deffkopta. GSC still cannot get Aberrants seperately.

What is likely?

Plague Marine/Chosen/Havoc kit? Doing work like the PA Grey Knights? UGH. Not a positive indicator of price.
Terminator kit.
Mortarion.
Poxwalker kit? Possibly?
Beast of Nurgle kit for Daemons.

It puts us on a similar level to Thousand Sons.

I actually like that fact that just being marked as a certain god doesn't automatically make you a member of the legion that was dedicated to serving them. It fits the fluff well, nowhere is there fluff I'm aware of where an original traitor legion welcomed a recent convert into their legion just because they all like the same god. They might be comrades and fight together but they aren't suddenly bearing the same gene seed. Also, it allows the legions to have the feel of the original legion again. Death guard don't do fast, so if you want nurgle bikers you can take them they just aren't part of the inner circle.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:


The thing is, I'm just curious how many kits we will get. We've already got three characters, 2 units, and a monstrous creature. We will logically get at least our primarch and terminators as well. Not to mention nurgle demons will likely get 1-2 units.

Don't count the Starter Box units as part of a Faction release. Remember, we didn't get chosen or cultists after Dark Vengeance. The Hellbrute took several years to show up. Orks never got their Deffkopta. GSC still cannot get Aberrants seperately.

What is likely?

Plague Marine/Chosen/Havoc kit? Doing work like the PA Grey Knights? UGH. Not a positive indicator of price.
Terminator kit.
Mortarion.
Poxwalker kit? Possibly?
Beast of Nurgle kit for Daemons.

It puts us on a similar level to Thousand Sons.

True enough, I'm fairly new to collecting, so the one I knew of (aberrants) I'd assumed was fairly unlikely.

I think the plague marines are a safe bet for soon, given they have rules for a weapon that doesn't exist in the starter box. Which is also why I'm not so sure it'll be a multi box. If the havoc/chosen plague marine options would be coming alongside the other new item in the index, why wouldn't they include both?

Actually... it would kinda make sense if we got a couple terminator units and one box. A heavy support terminator and a general usage one. I'd actually be very happy if that were the case, but who knows?

I'm worried that when we do get our Terminators their wargear will be restricted much the same way, so my axes and plasma won't be field able. Had I known everyone would be undivided eventually, I woundnt have painted them pre heresy death guard. Oh wait they're not death guard now. It's so stupid.

I'm gonna interject here with an observation, for literally as long as I've played 40k, there has been some saltyness (justly so mind you) among chaos Marines, that they get stuck with a single vanilla codex, while space Marines have a ton of flavor in the form of multiple codices etc.

thats changing. Death Guard are getting their own codex, we can expect that for the other "cult legions" too. TLDR Death Guard is losing access to a lot of this stuff because GW's intending a fairly big release schedule for them to go along Primaris Marines, multiple differant troop types, new vehicles etc. for all those whom have looked at blood angels, space wolves, dark angels, and wondered why Chaos can't get that treatment?

it's here. welcome to Marine sub faction status death guard players.

orkychaos wrote:
I actually like that fact that just being marked as a certain god doesn't automatically make you a member of the legion that was dedicated to serving them. It fits the fluff well, nowhere is there fluff I'm aware of where an original traitor legion welcomed a recent convert into their legion just because they all like the same god. They might be comrades and fight together but they aren't suddenly bearing the same gene seed. Also, it allows the legions to have the feel of the original legion again. Death guard don't do fast, so if you want nurgle bikers you can take them they just aren't part of the inner circle.

Except the main issue here is Chosen (Legion Veterans), Havocs (Fire Support Squads) and Terminators - not bikes. And arugably, Raptors are perfectly legitimate as well (Destroyers).

Death Guard are a Legion that has a heavy emphasis on Terminators, Veterans and Fire Support squads in 30k - to the extent that some of their RoWs are based around them.

You say it fits the fluff for there to not be Death Guard Terminators?

I say that's bull.

Those three units have been part of the Death Guard core since the word go. Veterans, Terminators and Havocs. We're an infantry based army. Instead of tanks we bring Terminators. Resilient, durable, survivable Terminators.

BrianDavion wrote:
I'm gonna interject here with an observation, for literally as long as I've played 40k, there has been some saltyness (justly so mind you) among chaos Marines, that they get stuck with a single vanilla codex, while space Marines have a ton of flavor in the form of multiple codices etc.

thats changing. Death Guard are getting their own codex, we can expect that for the other "cult legions" too. TLDR Death Guard is losing access to a lot of this stuff because GW's intending a fairly big release schedule for them to go along Primaris Marines, multiple differant troop types, new vehicles etc. for all those whom have looked at blood angels, space wolves, dark angels, and wondered why Chaos can't get that treatment?

it's here. welcome to Marine sub faction status death guard players.

Hahahahahahahaha.

Would you like a history lesson?

Salamanders, Imperial Fists, Iron Hands, White Scars, Raven Guard, Crimson Fists and Black Templars didn't get their unique identities until around the same time that the CSM Legions did - through the Index Astartes articles and campaign books during 3rd edition. 3.5 CSM further cemented those Legion identities. 4th ed SM followed suit - with a 'create your own' Chapter Trait system.

However, here's where it gets REALLY strange.

Late 4th ed that abomination of a CSM codex drops - and suddenly, all the Legion identities are gone. Even the design of the codex and WD articles are terrible, encouraging us to take 'technicolour dreamcoat' armies, with squads all painted to random Legion colours - truth be told I suspect this was because they couldn't be asked painting a studio CSM army proper - hell, even the basing scheme was inconsistent. And if you paid attention between 3.5 and 4th you'll notice that the Black Legion army they painted up got horrendously mixed up - Chosen were being randomly stuck in normal CSM squads for battle reports, newer models had a completely different basing scheme and the cult troops were ending up with random odd shoulderpads as they were strangely being used as individual scheme examples in the new Codex.

5th ed SM - introduces Chapter Traits on special characters. This further reinforces Chapter identities but leads to a strange mix and match counts as X Special Characer situation.

Then 6th edition comes along.

Do CSM get Legion identities back? Hahahaha. No. We get Codex BUY THIS HELLDRAKE NOW - with nothing more than fluff for the Legions. And a strange focus on Crimson Slaughter.

6th ed SM comes along - guess what? Chapter Traits baby! Suddenly Black Templars, Imperial Fists, Iron Hands, Raven Guard, Ultramarines, Salamanders and White Scars all have identities with free USRs encouraging certain unit approachs - jump packs for Raven Guard, Bikes for White Scars, flamer and melta spam for Salamanders.....

During the interval Chaos gets two supplements...for Crimson Slaughter (who literally nobody wanted - they could have been Red Corsairs, they could have been Word Bearers...wtf) and Black Legion.

SM get an Iron Hands and Imperial Fists supplement further reinforcing their identities.

7th ed SM comes along. MORE CHAPTER TRAITS.

CSM languishes for the entirety of 7th. We get to watch as digital and campaign supplements come out - Raven Guard, White Scars. Then Angels of Death giving everyone their own Decurions and objectives and relics and the like.

Meanwhile, we twiddle our thumbs.

Then Traitor Legions comes out. One week after WoM (sorry Thousand Sons players). And it's beautiful. It's literally all we've been asking for. It's our identities back after being stripped away 3 editions ago.

Turns out Traitor Legions was about for 6 months. And now...our identities are gone again. Are CSM players made about they? You fething bet. Because due to SM having crapped out special characters for so many chapters they get to play 8th ed bubble spam.

And yet....we have no IW, WB, NL, AL special characters. Yet as well as Ultras, SW, BA and DA...you have special characters for White Scars, Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists, Salamanders and Raven Guard.

Are we confused? Yes.

And then you produce statements like this - DUR HURR, YOU DON'T HAVE THOSE UNITS BECAUSE YOU ARE A SUBFACTION. DUR HURR.

Hang on a bloody minute.

World Eaters - everything not a psyker/ not Khorne
Emperor's Children - everything not 'non Slaanesh'.
Thousand Sons - this list reads strangely like what Matt Hutson has painted up with little rhyme or reason as to why certain things are there and why certain things aren't.
Death Guard - I hate to say this but, ew. The list literally reads like a list of the random crap that GW have painted up in their studio army. It's got strange omissions - Terminators, Chosen, Havocs, Vindicators, Daemon Engines - wtf? Why did these all disappear? We can't even have a Sorcerer with a Palanquin. The sorcerer with the Nurgle specific MOUNT. And then it hits you. The rest is what random crap they have painted up - they have painted up the Dark Imperium models - the characters can double as Chaos Lords or Sorcerers - so they count those. The Poxwalkers can double as cultists. So they include those. They have a studio Helbrute in DG colours...and they did a How To Paint book which featured a Nurgle defiler.


Now, let's look at sub-factions shall we?

Blood Angels - um. Hmm. Ok, you don't get the SM flyer, pre-heresy Terminators, anti air tanks or Centurions. You never had them before. That's really not new, is it? Disappointing to not have, but you're really not surprised.
Dark Angels - No fancy flyers, no Centurions, again, like the BA you've basically got all the stuff you've gotten before. Nothing new.
Space Wolves - Once again, same as before - you've lost nothing. Hmm.

Now let's look at Death Guard. Going by their last 'codex' equivalent - i.e. what we could take - we've lost...LOADS. Holy gak. Ok, ok, so we lost a bunch of the newer stuff. Bikes, Raptors, Dark Apostles, Warpsmiths...fair enough, they weren't the most fluffy choices.

Wait, we've lost Terminators, Chosen and Havocs? Things we've had since our first incarnation as an 'identity'?!

To understand the absolute shock Death Guard players experienced on READING that page.

Imagine you're a Dark Angels player. You play Ravenwing.

And suddenly you cannot take Land Speeders or Attack Bikes. You know, things that have been the core of your army since your army was a thing. You can only take Bikes. Ya'll would be flipping out and SCREECHING incoherently at us if that happened.

Regardless of whether a new book is on the way or not - the list is a stop gap. So why not include stop-gap units? Instead we get penalised as the bubble effect is only half as effective for us...or we're having to frankenstein lists.

Meanwhile every Imperial subfaction can HAPPILY stack bubbles. Not a problem. You don't need to make a Pepsi version of the Legion to take what you could have taken 15 years ago or 3 months ago.

It's just...wtf. There is no explanation for this. It's literally like the guy who got assigned the Death Guard rules walked to the WHW display cabinet, looked in it and wrote down what he saw and went 'YEP, WE HAVE AN ARMY NOW'.

I thought they playtested this with the ICT. Did not one of the ICT players go 'Hang on, wtf are you guys doing here?' Or did they manage to speak to the only person in the world who goes 'I RUN PLAGUE MARINES ONLY AND NOTHING ELSE' ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I'm worried that when we do get our Terminators their wargear will be restricted much the same way, so my axes and plasma won't be field able. Had I known everyone would be undivided eventually, I woundnt have painted them pre heresy death guard. Oh wait they're not death guard now. It's so stupid.

This is actually one of the biggest concerns. That this 'new Death Guard Terminator kit we've seen only a single model of' is going to basically result in us getting Scarab Occult'd.

Now, I have 3 configurations of my Terminators.

2 Power Mauls, 1 chainfist, 1 power fist, 1 heavy flamer, 2 combi-flamers, 1 combi-melta, 1 Lightning Claw.

4 Power fists, 4 Combi Bolters, 1 Power Axe, 1 Reaper Autocannon

2 paired Lightning Claws, 1 single Lightning Claw, 1 Chainfist, 1 Power Sword, 2 Combi-bolters, 1 Reaper.

If they Scarab occult us...there is no way in hell these units will be able to survive. And no, I'd rather not strip arms off models that in some cases have done their damn job since late 4th edition when I replaced my old Death Guard and bought a FW heavy new army.

What I don't understand is why DG get Defilers but not Forge/Maulerfiends? I mean, they're both daemon engines.

 Arbitrator wrote:
What I don't understand is why DG get Defilers but not Forge/Maulerfiends? I mean, they're both daemon engines.

Because they have a studio army defiler and not a studio army forgefiend or maulerfiend.

It seriously reads like the guy went, looked at the display cabinet, wrote down what he saw and called it a day.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:
What I don't understand is why DG get Defilers but not Forge/Maulerfiends? I mean, they're both daemon engines.

Because they have a studio army defiler and not a studio army forgefiend or maulerfiend.

It seriously reads like the guy went, looked at the display cabinet, wrote down what he saw and called it a day.

You'd think they'd at least paint one up for the sake of shifting more kits... but then, Games Workshop - even with the head of the serpent changed - have never been that bright.

My new <Legion> keyword will be Feth Guard, since they fethed up my army list..

I am guessing the deflier made the list due to the Plague Hulk of Nurgle. Just a hunch though (as it is no longer sold by FW).

And I am sorry you lost access to your Forgefiends and Maulerfiends under the Death Guard keyword, but these are some of the least fluffy units for Nurgle.

Raptor cults and Obliterator cults arent fluffy for DG either really.

My point is, we chose to build unfluffy lists, and it's time to rectify that. I am excited that when the new codex drops that my army will be actual Death Guard, not weird things mixed together and coloured as Death Guard.

Everyone shouting about how we had no identity until traitor legions: we still don't. NOW we are getting our identity. NOW we are getting our Primarch. NOW we are getting primary model support from GW.

If you want to play an unfluffy army that is coloured as Death Guard, I am not having a go at you. There is a reason that my whole army can take the Death Guard Legion keyword already, except a few units; I built it to be somewhat fluffy.

I agree Havocs and terminators are weird to not be included in the initial release, but again I believe that is because we could have new fluffy options coming soon.

as for sub factions, remember death Guard are getting a codex very soon (hell I expect to see death guard and primaris releaases for pretty much all of late june/july)

Let's look at an existing sub faction for Marines, I'll say space Wolves.

so, GW has just annoucned a new edition, and space wolves, which until this time, had used the space Marines codex, now get their own faction. we've gotten a new starter set with blood claws, grey hunters and wolf scouts.

so along comes the index, and we're told that space wolves cannot take terminators, cannot take devestators etc

well WTF GW, space wolves have always had terminators, and using heavy weapons is a thing.

well the month goes by and GW releases new kits, space wolves get wolf guard, they get long fangs etc. which are direct analogues for these units, but a new kit with differant options.

I SUSPECT this is whats happening with Death Guard.

All I know is that I am disappointed.

I started my DG army before solid news of 8th or the new DG models would be in the starter box. I started it because I was sick of playing the SM's, and always loved the Nugle lore.

Now after months of buying Plague Marines off eBay (cause you know...GW didnt stock them) and then buying FW conversion bits for Plague Marines and Terminators, and then painting my guys, and modeling them.... (and that includes pistols on some Plague Marines....sigh)... I feel shafted.

I assumed with the hype of 8th, and with the "Oh every model in your army will be viable" that that would include the actual sub factions. Is that wishful thinking?

I dont want to streamline the armies. Thats BORING, and limited in scope.

Even worse...my SM army is Iron Hands....lol

So getting hyped for 8th has gone out the window for me. Generic lists, generic lore, and everything just blended together does not get me excited now...

Half of my Plague Marines have bolt pistols + knvies, I am not changing them lol

Also it is always a risk buying Forge World, as GW doesn't view that as already released alot of the time.

Edit: all of my PMs are FW conversions.

It wouldn't be so bad if I could Counts As my Autocannons as the new Blight Launchers, but the range 24 vs 48 is way off without shortening the barrels.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
It wouldn't be so bad if I could Counts As my Autocannons as the new Blight Launchers, but the range 24 vs 48 is way off without shortening the barrels.

Just model on some pus coming out of the barrel, reducing its effectiveness

I understand from a fluff standpoint that they took away the havocs, oblits, raptors and bikes. But why the Chosen AND especially: Why the Vindicator? Fluff says Vindicators were basically the only tanks we used in higher numbers - and they take them away and give us predators instead? That's strange.

I hope we'll get some special weapons team that fills the role of Chosen and Havocs at the same time.

Also, just ally in your nurgle marked Oblits, Havocs and stuff as [Lords of Decay] or [The cleaved] or [The Purge] or [Bringers of Despair] or [Apostles of Contagion] - and you are totally okay. If you don't want to follow Mortarions path, then get out and find your own Nurgle Warband .

Yeah actually vindicator is a sad loss to the Legion :(

I can't wait to see some new chosen DG models!

Honestly looking at it, I'm considering just shelving my DG/CSM and refusing to purchase anything new for them for a long while. If I wanted to play DG I'm basically rebuilding my army from the ground up as is, I've got half an army at best. Even if I play black legion or EC I'm not really satisfied with my current collection, probably need more basic CSM/noise marines. If I want to use all my models, I'd have to do both.

The fact that I see no reason to disallow havocs, terminators, or yes vindicators besides either total ignorance of the armies fluff or an attempt to force us to buy new models doesn't help.

Honestly, they are lucky I bought cawl and a dominus already, otherwise both my lists would've been shot to hell and I'd probably be annoyed enough to quit playing. As is, I'm holding off on purchases of any kind till I see a codex.

You won't have to buy new models if they release new Havocs or terminators, just use your current models... But yes might be wise to hold off buying stuff until the codex if you have a heavily non-DG themed army

 Rippy wrote:
You won't have to buy new models if they release new Havocs or terminators, just use your current models... But yes might be wise to hold off buying stuff until the codex if you have a heavily non-DG themed army

If the new units had equipment that was compareable to existing equipment, do you really think they wouldn't have mentioned it as an option. I'm assuming so. I wouldn't be shocked if some of it resembled the Horus Hersey stuff, given the recent tsons releases actually did (to a degree of course). I'm not even convinced we will get havocs at this point.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Thing is, the Undivided Legions are still playable. It's anything with a Mark that is now pointless. That is what gets me more. I can wait for Legion rules. I can't just unpainted my Death Guard havocs, terminators, oblits heldrakes, Biker Lords etc. We have the restrictions of the 3.5 codex with the blandness of the 5th edition.

Actually you can, you just need some acetone.

Can't wait for these dudes

 Rippy wrote:
Can't wait for these dudes

yup, we KNOW DG termies are coming, the bigger question IMHO is havocs.

Huh, I just now realized that is a plaguespitter, the same as on the blight drone. Didn't make the connection till now. Wonder if they will still be str: user. Bit odd if it were.

So at least we know one weapon option now.I expect the terminators will have plaguespitters, blight launchers, maybe some missile weapon and either manreapers or the normal power weapons/fists. So an amalgam of grave warden and death shroud from HH/FW.

SilverAlien wrote:
Huh, I just now realized that is a plaguespitter, the same as on the blight drone. Didn't make the connection till now. Wonder if they will still be str: user. Bit odd if it were.

So at least we know one weapon option now.I expect the terminators will have plaguespitters, blight launchers, maybe some missile weapon and either manreapers or the normal power weapons/fists. So an amalgam of grave warden and death shroud from HH/FW.

most likely they'll be in cataphracti armor so speed of 4, Invul save 4++ they'll be slow but pretty damned hard to kill

BrianDavion wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
Huh, I just now realized that is a plaguespitter, the same as on the blight drone. Didn't make the connection till now. Wonder if they will still be str: user. Bit odd if it were.

So at least we know one weapon option now.I expect the terminators will have plaguespitters, blight launchers, maybe some missile weapon and either manreapers or the normal power weapons/fists. So an amalgam of grave warden and death shroud from HH/FW.

most likely they'll be in cataphracti armor so speed of 4, Invul save 4++ they'll be slow but pretty damned hard to kill

Don't forget they can teleport in (presumably). That'll help quite a bit. Though you'll be out of plaguespiiter range jsut barely, so hopefully they'd have longer range guns mixed in. Though... a unit of nothing but those would not be a unit anyone wants to charge.

SilverAlien wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
Huh, I just now realized that is a plaguespitter, the same as on the blight drone. Didn't make the connection till now. Wonder if they will still be str: user. Bit odd if it were.

So at least we know one weapon option now.I expect the terminators will have plaguespitters, blight launchers, maybe some missile weapon and either manreapers or the normal power weapons/fists. So an amalgam of grave warden and death shroud from HH/FW.

most likely they'll be in cataphracti armor so speed of 4, Invul save 4++ they'll be slow but pretty damned hard to kill

Don't forget they can teleport in (presumably). That'll help quite a bit. Though you'll be out of plaguespiiter range jsut barely, so hopefully they'd have longer range guns mixed in. Though... a unit of nothing but those would not be a unit anyone wants to charge.

might be the ideal way to use em too, sit on objectives, dare the enemy to try to dislodge you.

Tau lost all of the Farsight Enclaves rules and special all suits armys... yeah I can field them using the new detachments, but it isn't the same... but it is!


You can put all of your units in the same Detachment because they all have the Chaos Keyword. You sinergies have been hurt a little. That has to be expected for a Death Guard to be a subfaction with strenghts and weakness and still be different than "Chaos Space Marines of Nurgle ++++"

The lost of Mark Rules and Legion Rules are a bummer yes, but everyone has lost that.

 Galas wrote:
Tau lost all of the Farsight Enclaves rules and special all suits armys... yeah I can field them using the new detachments, but it isn't the same... but it is!


You can put all of your units in the same Detachment because they all have the Chaos Keyword. You sinergies have been hurt a little. That has to be expected for a Death Guard to be a subfaction with strenghts and weakness and still be different than "Chaos Space Marines of Nurgle ++++"

The lost of Mark Rules and Legion Rules are a bummer yes, but everyone has lost that.

Should I point out that our most recent legion rules from 6 months ago conferred, among other things, relentless. A rules whose primary usage was improving our havocs and standard CSM. Both of which are now gone. In a legion who has almost alwys been know for heavy ordnance, only slightly less so than the iron warriors themselves. So, 6 months ago, someone who was familiar with our legion in the fluff took the time to give us rules that made sense. Then, when the index hit, that went away units that have always been common to our legion are now gone, with no explanation as to why.

Imagine, if you can, that you can no longer field crisis battlesuit/bodyguard teams with the keyword "farsight enclaves". I mean, you could still take them in the same detachment as commander farsight, they just wouldn't benefit from his traits because clearly there aren't any crisis suit teams from the farsight enclaves. It's not like that's one of the things they are known for. That's our issue, or mine at least.

I don't mind being a subfaction with unique strengths and weaknesses. I absolutely mind being a subfaction with unique strength and weaknesses determined by an absolute incompetent (or team of incompetents, it is GW) who doesn't know the first thing about the legion in question. Because it leads to situations where the army list doesn't make any sense to anyone familiar with the legion in question.

To be honest, I build the narrative of my army throug the paint schemes and models, not the rules. So if my Battlesuits can't benefit from some ingame rule or buff of Farsight because they haven't the Keyword, they are still part of the same army and the same narrative.

You are making such a big deal of something that has happened to everyone with this stop-gap indexes, losing flavour and rules. And even better, you have doing that being one of the two posters boys of this edition. Sorry if I can't empathize with that.


EDIT: I have realized that I have used the phrase "build the narrative"... did I become GW?!

Yeah I think people just struggle to change their mindset because of certain words.

It's like how people were getting upset that their characters can't join units, because they are no longer "leading them" even though joining them is literally just standing near them with the words "joining" in the rules.

It is all about perception, and I think if people looked at the big picture they would realize that there isn't anything that different or to be upset about. Yes losing relentless sucks, except there isn't such a thing as relentless anymore etc etc

 Galas wrote:

You can put all of your units in the same Detachment because they all have the Chaos Keyword. You synergies have been hurt a little.

I wanna focus on this idea particularly, and how much of an issue it is really likely to be.

For anyone who's familiar with Age of Sigmar (which, let's face it, 8th edition is heavily influenced by), some of the most competitive lists involved armies which have, in truth, very little synergy. A great example of this are the Moonclan/Beastclaw Raider lists (Night Goblins with Ogres on Thundertusks, for the uninitiated) which consists of units which only share a general keyword (Destruction) and little synergy in-between.

I can understand the frustration of not being able to field a "Death Guard" army in a strict keyword sense. I can understand the frustration of no longer having distinguishing Chaos Marks on standard Chaos Space Marines, allowing for more specialized customization and a good representation of the background in rules, but to say that Death Guard simply don't have those options is ludicrous.

Death Guard armies are not "invalidated" in any sense of the word. Sure, not everything gets a Death Guard keyword and the removal of marks of chaos stings a little. But you can most certainly keep playing your armies they way they are, and to imply that it's somehow impossible in some sense is ridiculous. And, in fact, you may find that they may be more competitive.

To be fair, I originally thought the army/detachment had to be "death guard" for plague marines to be troops. I didn't realize any plague marine with "death guard" legion keyword was automatically a troop. I was too used to the old formation system. To be fair, I still maintain that's a very weird way of doing it.

I dont think that terminator is official. Its head is a mess and I dont think gw would release soemthing that badly made. If that weapon really is the plaguespitter maybe its a conversion?

FudgeDumper wrote:
I dont think that terminator is official. Its head is a mess and I dont think gw would release soemthing that badly made. If that weapon really is the plaguespitter maybe its a conversion?

There is no way that is a conversion, it even has the studio paint scheme down to a T.

Just remember the amount of people on the internet claiming the initial Primaris leaks were a kitbash/conversion...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FudgeDumper wrote:
I dont think that terminator is official. Its head is a mess and I dont think gw would release soemthing that badly made. If that weapon really is the plaguespitter maybe its a conversion?

Wait, re-reading this post, are you saying that you think they accidentally made his helmet look broken?

 Galas wrote:


You are making such a big deal of something that has happened to everyone with this stop-gap indexes, losing flavour and rules. And even better, you have doing that being one of the two posters boys of this edition. Sorry if I can't empathize with that.

I'm sorry, did you just assume 'featured in the starter game' equals 'Poster Boy of the edition'?

Did you really just say that?

Dark Eldar - total poster boys of 3rd edition.

Chaos - total poster boys of 6th and 7th edition.

....That's...a bit of a fallacy there mate. And when you assume...well, you know how the saying goes.

I think a lot of our concerns are straight up - if it's a stop gap list then why remove units that would effectively be stop gap units? It's a bad omen. It implies we will not longer have those units. And that's not okay. Those units have been staples of our army since it gained its identity.

Wolf Guard Terminators didn't lose weapon options from normal Terminators.
Deathwing have identical weapon options to normal Terminators.

Hell, in both cases you GAINED options.

Scarab Occult...didn't. Even when you couldn't upgrade them - they still have a mix of power weapons. And then they allowed you to Upgrade some of them. And then let you have upgrades.

But now? Fixed combi-bolters and power swords. Power SWORDS. You know, that weapon option that CSM players have NEVER fething had actual model representation of on Terminators since Rogue Trader. And suddenly, Scarab Occult have them. Didn't model your Terminators with Power swords? HAHAA! Sucks to be you. I mean, you should have known, right? Not like there wasn't a single available CSM Terminator power sword arm available outside of a Rogue Trader Chaos Terminator or Abaddon, eh?

And that's one of our concerns - we're going to get Scarab Occult'd and end up with a fixed weapon set that isn't compatible with models that have done for 6 editions to date.

And we don't have a confirmed release date of the Death Guard book. It could be 2 weeks. It could be 3 months. Remember the gap between 6th ed CSM and Dark Angels?

Hell, even being 'featured in the starter set' doesn't mean 'first codexes released.' Did you forget 7th ed? Or the huge gap in time for Orks during 5th?

And that's a hell of a time for a stop gap.


Also, curious question.

Why the hell do we have a Dark Angels/Tau player coming in here and trying to lecture us over our concerns? Why the hell is 'I can't use my Farsight army' being considered as a valid comparison - when you even admit you can with an alternative detachment. Hell, there's nothing stopping you calling your Sept <Farsight Enclaves> and benefitting from stacking buff bubbles. You don't have a list that says you cannot take specific units.

And it's really not like you've suddenly lost a unit or...well...half of them due to a list that I'm now certain is basically 'What GW had painted in their Studio army' while Thousand Sons got 'What Matt Hutson has painted'.

I'm seeing strange behaviour with regards to things like this - which are red flags if you've been around long enough. 'Member when Squats suddenly disappeared?

And it's bloody amazing the amount of people who have just...given up. Be complacent with what you have. Just accept it. Nah. I'll make a noise cause things change when people make noise. The 7th ed FAQs showed that. There've been plenty of times in the past where enough noise forces GW to respond.

You don't have a list that says you can't take terminators either DarkStarSabreMade. You have a list that says units with <legion> keyword MAY take the Death Guard keyword if they are in that list, it doesn't say you can't take them all under the chaos key word anyway.

I am not complacent either, I am excited for the future.

 Rippy wrote:
You don't have a list that says you can't take terminators either DarkStarSabreMade. You have a list that says units with <legion> keyword MAY take the Death Guard keyword if they are in that list, it doesn't say you can't take them all under the chaos key word anyway.

I am not complacent either, I am excited for the future.

Once more, the concern is the fact that that cuts off their synergy and will also impact any faction specific boons and bonuses that a pure Death Guard list would. And it indicates that Death Guard might be getting the Scarab Occult treatment - what random armaments will we get this time?

And I still believe that the list was written based on what was painted in their cabinets at the time...we should've tried harder as a community to get a Death Guard player in as a rules developer so they could at least have written down what he had in his army.

Thousand Sons players dodged a bullet due to the existence of Matt Hutson.

I think the point is that we don't need stop gap rules, because our real codex is coming here soon.
So they want us to use that which will have all of our proper terminators etc, rather than just sitting on the index with the sub-par, non-DG stuff.

I am not going to be buying an index for this reason, I am happy to plod along, get stuff painted, use a store copy and the leaks until the DG codex drops.

 Rippy wrote:
I think the point is that we don't need stop gap rules, because our real codex is coming here soon.
So they want us to use that which will have all of our proper terminators etc, rather than just sitting on the index with the sub-par, non-DG stuff.

Remember, we've not had confirmed Codex dates. And there isn't a history of quick release codexes from starter boxes either - Orks, Dark Angels and the sad mess of 7th edition are examples of this. My primary concern is still getting Scarab Occult'd. Nothing like Thousand Sons players being told their Terminators all needed to have Power Swords when CSM Terminators have literally two power sword arms in their entire lifespan (in Rogue Trader and that awkward metal Chaos Terminator Lord that had it on the wrong arm.)

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
I think the point is that we don't need stop gap rules, because our real codex is coming here soon.
So they want us to use that which will have all of our proper terminators etc, rather than just sitting on the index with the sub-par, non-DG stuff.

Remember, we've not had confirmed Codex dates. And there isn't a history of quick release codexes from starter boxes either - Orks, Dark Angels and the sad mess of 7th edition are examples of this. My primary concern is still getting Scarab Occult'd. Nothing like Thousand Sons players being told their Terminators all needed to have Power Swords when CSM Terminators have literally two power sword arms in their entire lifespan (in Rogue Trader and that awkward metal Chaos Terminator Lord that had it on the wrong arm.)

given they've released the Mortarian teaser video already, and that death guard is in the starter set, it's a safer bet then not death guard is getting some love soon, now it's POSSIABLE the new stuff won't be coddex entries, but just data sheets, but....

If we don't have a Death Guard Codex by the end of the year, heck, by the end of July I will be very surprised.

BrianDavion wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
I think the point is that we don't need stop gap rules, because our real codex is coming here soon.
So they want us to use that which will have all of our proper terminators etc, rather than just sitting on the index with the sub-par, non-DG stuff.

Remember, we've not had confirmed Codex dates. And there isn't a history of quick release codexes from starter boxes either - Orks, Dark Angels and the sad mess of 7th edition are examples of this. My primary concern is still getting Scarab Occult'd. Nothing like Thousand Sons players being told their Terminators all needed to have Power Swords when CSM Terminators have literally two power sword arms in their entire lifespan (in Rogue Trader and that awkward metal Chaos Terminator Lord that had it on the wrong arm.)

given they've released the Mortarian teaser video already, and that death guard is in the starter set, it's a safer bet then not death guard is getting some love soon, now it's POSSIABLE the new stuff won't be coddex entries, but just data sheets, but....

Or we will get shoehorned into a campaign book, which has been how GW has handled many new releases for AOS and 40k for the last several years, and we will get Mortarian in that book, and maybe terminators, and then be stuck with the index for a few years until GW gets around to doing the other cult troops and releasing a chaos codex. Even then I have zero faith in GW to do Chaos justice because they haven't got it right in like 15 years, despite being overall pleased with the direction they are taking the game. Unfortunately for me I only play Death Guard, and I'm not going to start another army, so I'm SOL.

The thing is, the Index is either meant as 8th edition chaos codex, in which case, wow, it's worse than the 6th edition and is borderline unplayable.
Or it's a stop gap and even then it sucks or makes no sense. If its a stop gap then why the artifical limitations. We know DG get terminators and when they do, they will be getting rules to go withteh new models.
So why then do we not get to use the normal termintors until then. Once the DG codex is out, nobody in their right mind will be using the index rules after all.
Why even bother adding legions if you're going to half ass them (big time). So the index isn't even usable as a stopgap.

And the biggest irony? They added the ability to represent sub chapters/legions into the rules, but you can't actually use them.
Say you have a nurgle warband and want to use nurgle marked units. You can't use typhus, but that's ok being a character and all.
But all those marked units? They do nothing. Khorne marine, nurgle marine, slaanesh marines, it's a wash, they all have identical rules and profiles.
The index is terribad in that sense. I don't care if we can compete with it, I don't WANT to compete with the index.

So much hostility here. Yes, I'm saying that Deathguard are one of the posters boys of this edition because half the face of the marine in the 8th edition rulebukk and official artworks is a Deathguard. You are gonna receive a bunch of stuff, a DEMON PRIMARCH, and a proper Codex, probably just after Primaris Marines.

If all of that is comparable with just being the random aliens that Space Marines smack in all the other Starter Sets, you are just blinding yourself to add to your narrative.

I'll don't enter in the Special Pleading fallacy. Just because I don't play Deathguards I can't talk about that. Well, If I'm here is because I plan to start a DG army with 8th edition. I suppose that I'm not a true DG fan to say my opinion in this? Sorry about that.

About losing weapons I can agree with that. It will suck, but you aren't gonna receive Nurgle Terminators. You are gonna receive Death Guard Terminators. One can be a Nurgle Terminator without being Deathguard. A retcon? Yes. But one has to live with that stuff.

And I'll repeat what Cryonicleech said. You can take all the same stuff you have been taking. You loss some sinergies, that in many cases aren't even important nor from a narrative way not a competitive way.

And please stop putting yourself as some Bright Crusader. You have an opinion, other people has a different opinion, is not about being complacient.

So I'm going to offer some positives having gone through the list. Mostly going to focus on how DG works mechanically.



So, honestly DG have lost relatively little of value, and aren't actually in trouble. Though many of our model collections might struggle with a pure DG force now, it's not hard to field a functional one.

Admittedly now I'm annoyed by things like havocs being straight up worse devastators again for the same points, but that's at least different anger. So yay for that.

Anger about a DG army list which doesn't accurately portray the DG is still present though. People telling us that shouldn't matter should really be quiet, given that wanting an army list which allows you to portray your army accurately is in no way an unreasonable request. Not when literally evey other army that I've seen has a list that manages it (the tsons list is more or less accurate given their fluff, but has other issues).

 Roknar wrote:

So why then do we not get to use the normal termintors until then. Once the DG codex is out, nobody in their right mind will be using the index rules after all.

You can. Please read the rest of the thread before basing your whole argument on not being able to do something when you can.

No you can't. I specifically said Death guard. You cannot have deathguard terminators. Why? Because they're going to be getting their own soon (TM).
Why is that bad? If the index is supposed to be a stopgap, then they should have let DG use the normal terminators for now or include the rules for DG termies (which GW already has for certain) and just skimp on the lore since it's a stopgap.
They didn't do that. So maybe this is supposed to be the vanilla dex with legions. In that case, where are the missing legions?
Even with just the cult legions, why half ass them and only release some of the rules? You still wouldn't have detachments and stratagems n stuff, but at least the unique units and army limitations.
They just said " you can't have normal termies becasue you're getting your own. I mean we're not gonan release them yet, but in the mean time you have....well..I dunno, just forge the narrative harder."

Some random warband cult terminators are not death guard terminators (neither through rules nor fluff), and they are most certainly not gravewardens.
They also can't be buffed by the Death Guard spells that they did include (which again, half assing, why DG and not TSons who have their models already?).
And to make things worse, you CAN take a lord in terminator armour even though the DG specific terminator lord is in the index.

This is worse than having paintscheme legions. You actually have rules for (...some) legions and you KNOW they have terminators as we are about to get dedicated models and yet you have to use a different warband ,paint them green and pretend they are deathguard.
Getting a new codex soon is no excuse for the mess that is the index. There is no good reason for them to prevent deathguard from taking normal terminators now. They could simply have given a restricted list come the actual codex to prevent cheaper termies or whatever.

Going off of the horus heresy books from black library and the fluff from the 30k Black books, not to mention the deathguard legion rules in 30, I would say that they got the feel of death guard correct.

I really like them. I didn't use havocs or bikers so the change doesnt effect me much.

Because Roknar, when the Codex is out then they still could take those other terminators with the Death Guard keyword which they obviously do not want.
So for now you can take them in a death guard army without the keyword, and in future you will have proper statted and worded death guard.
It's only your perception that is making this so hard.

orkychaos wrote:
Going off of the horus heresy books from black library and the fluff from the 30k Black books, not to mention the deathguard legion rules in 30, I would say that they got the feel of death guard correct.

I really like them. I didn't use havocs or bikers so the change doesnt effect me much.

Um....how exactly?

The Death Guard RoW - The Reaping - allows for Legion Veterans and Legion Heavy Support squads to be taken as non-compulsory Troops choices - the 40k equivalent of those is Chosen and Havocs, both of which we have suddenly lost access to.

30k Death Guard have TWO Legion unique Terminator units, in addition to access to standard Legion Terminators - allowing us to field Terminators in HQ, Elites and Heavy Support slots in 30k. - It's obvious what the 40k equivalent is. And we've suddenly lost access to them.

They didn't get the feel at all if you go by our background or our rules.

Book 1 - Betrayal has the following quote.

'The Death Guard relied almost exclusively on its infantry to provide its strategic strength, with the bulk of tactical support firepower coming from heavily armed support squads, and latterly with considerable numbers of Terminators and Dreadnoughts- a tradition begun by the Dusk Raiders, providing reinforcement and assault spearheads where needed. This focus was also one of the reasons the Death Guard Legion developed a particularly admirable record in fighting to clear space hulks of alien infestation and for their ability to destroy fortifications and citadels from within.'

So - 30k, ruleswise - we're not represented well - our Legion specific Rite of War allows us to field Veterans and Heavy Support squads as Troops. Our Legion has more unique types of Terminators than any other Legion as well. And in 30k - we have zero access to any of the equivalents.

30k, backgroundwise - we're not represented well - we don't have considerable numbers of Terminators or heavily armed support squads.

No, their Death Guard list is a piss poor job. It's literally what they had painted in the Studio display cabinet at the time. When you consider the others...

Well, no one plays EC in the Studio so they couldn't say nothing - so gave them everything.
The studio KDK/Khorne army is basically their Crimson Slaughter army, which has painted examples of pretty much everything - gave them everything.
Matt Hutson's Thousand Sons match their Thousand Sons list unit for unit - saved by the developer playing the army.

And Death Guard...well, yeah, That's painfully obvious. When you consider that the DI units can double as others - Sorcerers, Cultists, generic Chaos Lords - they gave us those options. But everything else they have a display unit or model of.

 Rippy wrote:
Because Roknar, when the Codex is out then they still could take those other terminators with the Death Guard keyword which they obviously do not want.
So for now you can take them in a death guard army without the keyword, and in future you will have proper statted and worded death guard.
It's only your perception that is making this so hard.

No it wouldn't allow it. They could have put that exact same list into the DG codex and prevent you from using them with DG. I already said as much in my post.
You don't remove something that the player is supposed to have and replace it with nothing. If you don't have anything to replace it with for whatever reason, you make a stopgap list and put the closest thing to what they are supposed to get in there.
Ergo terminators, and when you release the actual thing THEN you take it away. This is simply cut bad design.

yet again you're looking at this without the full information. Here's something we need to keep in mind
Death Guard are finished, but not yet released thats why this seems so odd.

we'll almost certainly see more death guard units in the very near future as GW trickles them out (proably a late june/early july release. codex death Guard could be out by June 24) it seems likely to me that GW wants all death guard infantry to be "plague marine varients"

so expect renames and or consolodations of the death guard.
chances are we're gonna see "plague marines" "plague terminators" and POSSIABLY a heavy weapons/special weapons squad as well. we're also getting new vehicles for them etc (my local GW manager told me both Primaris Marines and Death Guard are getting new tanks.) I'd expect a death Guard answer for every Primaris release.


as such let's look at what we have

Primaris Marines:
Intercessor Squad
Inceptor Squad,
Hellblast Squad

Primaris Leuitenant
Primaris Captain
Primaris Ancient
Primaris Repulsor
Primaris Dreadnought

So 2 types of infantry squads (assuming intercessor and hellblast will be a duel kit)
3 character types, and 2 vehicles.


meanwhile, death Guard Has

Plague Marines
Pox Walkers
Feotid Bloat Drone
Lord of Contagion
Noxious blight bringer
Malignant Plague Caster,
Typhus
Mortarion.

so 2 infantry, 1 bloat drone (MonVee? I dunno) and 5 characters.

seems pretty character heavy, I think we're gonna see more stuff to fill the death guard out

Edit: and we're 99% sure that death guard terminators are coming, so we KNOW not everything has been announced

BrianDavion wrote:

Spoiler:

yet again you're looking at this without the full information. Here's something we need to keep in mind
Death Guard are finished, but not yet released thats why this seems so odd.

we'll almost certainly see more death guard units in the very near future as GW trickles them out (proably a late june/early july release. codex death Guard could be out by June 24) it seems likely to me that GW wants all death guard infantry to be "plague marine varients"

so expect renames and or consolodations of the death guard.
chances are we're gonna see "plague marines" "plague terminators" and POSSIABLY a heavy weapons/special weapons squad as well. we're also getting new vehicles for them etc (my local GW manager told me both Primaris Marines and Death Guard are getting new tanks.) I'd expect a death Guard answer for every Primaris release.


as such let's look at what we have

Primaris Marines:
Intercessor Squad
Inceptor Squad,
Hellblast Squad

Primaris Leuitenant
Primaris Captain
Primaris Ancient
Primaris Repulsor
Primaris Dreadnought

So 2 types of infantry squads (assuming intercessor and hellblast will be a duel kit)
3 character types, and 2 vehicles.


meanwhile, death Guard Has

Plague Marines
Pox Walkers
Feotid Bloat Drone
Lord of Contagion
Noxious blight bringer
Malignant Plague Caster,
Typhus
Mortarion.

so 2 infantry, 1 bloat drone (MonVee? I dunno) and 5 characters.

seems pretty character heavy, I think we're gonna see more stuff to fill the death guard out

Edit: and we're 99% sure that death guard terminators are coming, so we KNOW not everything has been announced

That's fine and all and maybe DG will be great once the codex hit. The problem is what they did with the index, which is a hodgepodge of old and new.
Mark are gone, to be consilidated into actual units like new plague terminators. That's fine.
Except they didn't give us those and all the other non unique units are suddenly left without the marks that made them work/cool.
And they did give us rules to play DG that assume those missing units exist, except they don't.
They would have been better off leaving out the unqiue units alltogether or at least leaving out the legion rules for the cults and simply allow any unit to be given a legion of your choice.
Then provide rules to make a true DG list when their codex hits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, to be clear. You can include <totally DG> units and it will have very little to no effect on your army performance on the table top. That's not my issue. This shouldn't have been a thing in the first place is what I'm saying. There was nothing to be gained by removing these units from a deathguard list at this point in time that they couldn't have done with the release of the DG codex.

Why is Sabre just ignoring that the Death Guard codex is coming out soon?

 Roknar wrote:

Also, to be clear. You can include <totally DG> units and it will have very little to no effect on your army performance on the table top. That's not my issue. This shouldn't have been a thing in the first place is what I'm saying. There was nothing to be gained by removing these units from a deathguard list at this point in time that they couldn't have done with the release of the DG codex.

Are you serious? People would complain that options were being removed then instead of now.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Roknar wrote:

Also, to be clear. You can include <totally DG> units and it will have very little to no effect on your army performance on the table top. That's not my issue. This shouldn't have been a thing in the first place is what I'm saying. There was nothing to be gained by removing these units from a deathguard list at this point in time that they couldn't have done with the release of the DG codex.

Are you serious? People would complain that options were being removed then instead of now.

The difference being that you then actually have units to replace those you lost. Right now the restrictions are based on units you are going to get soon as opposed to what you actually have access to.

You have access to them all with the Chaos keyword.
Stop fighting the keyword in the index. By doing it this way, they dont invalidate the index, but give us the proper units in the codex.
You want stop gap rules, even though you already have them.
If your Terminators are painted as Death Guard, then they are Death Guard. Be a proud son of Mortarion, and stop getting caught up in the keyword Death Guard which doesn't do anything except alter your perception on what is Death Guard in your army

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Why is Sabre just ignoring that the Death Guard codex is coming out soon?

Has that actually been confirmed? Not model leaks, which may get rules in a campaign supplement, actual evidence of a DG/CSM/legion codex?

Anyone notice that all the Plague marine models in the death guard announcement video aren't the models that are included with the Plague marine unit in the new box set. Go ahead. Go watch the video and look at the pics and try and match them up. I'm thinking mutlipart plague marine kits coming soon?

I also just want to say that a year ago I promised myself that I wouldn't buy any new codexs because all the rumors of 8th. Then Traitor legions came out and I just had to, Papa Nurgle just could not be denied... then this... Feels like a waste of money.

The Death Guard RoW - The Reaping - allows for Legion Veterans and Legion Heavy Support squads to be taken as non-compulsory Troops choices - the 40k equivalent of those is Chosen and Havocs, both of which we have suddenly lost access to.

Really? Huh interesting retcon than, I really should look into the 30k rules to see what else has changed.

SilverAlien wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Why is Sabre just ignoring that the Death Guard codex is coming out soon?

Has that actually been confirmed? Not model leaks, which may get rules in a campaign supplement, actual evidence of a DG/CSM/legion codex?

While it's not evidence, it is widely accepted that we will be getting one, even ignoring the rumors saying we are.
Here is why:
A) Mortarion has been teased by GW for a while, plus the leaked model from 6ish months ago. He isn't in the index.

B) leaked terminators, not in index.

C) GW stated new factions at launch. Death Guard is one of them yet we are not fleshed out yet, so we are due for it.

D) new artwork of Ultramar sector getting attacked features all of the new models in starter set, plus some extra stuff we haven't seen yet. This might just be artistic license to add some cool stuff, but could be a hint at what is yet to come.

E) Recent previous releases show we probably will be getting fully fleshed out units aka thousand sons release. With new codices on the way, this makes sense to place them all in the DG one.

 Rippy wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Why is Sabre just ignoring that the Death Guard codex is coming out soon?

Has that actually been confirmed? Not model leaks, which may get rules in a campaign supplement, actual evidence of a DG/CSM/legion codex?

While it's not evidence, it is widely accepted that we will be getting one, even ignoring the rumors saying we are.
Here is why:
A) Mortarion has been teased by GW for a while, plus the leaked model from 6ish months ago. He isn't in the index.

B) leaked terminators, not in index.

C) GW stated new factions at launch. Death Guard is one of them yet we are not fleshed out yet, so we are due for it.

D) new artwork of Ultramar sector getting attacked features all of the new models in starter set, plus some extra stuff we haven't seen yet. This might just be artistic license to add some cool stuff, but could be a hint at what is yet to come.

E) Recent previous releases show we probably will be getting fully fleshed out units aka thousand sons release. With new codices on the way, this makes sense to place them all in the DG one.

in short GW hasn't come out and said it, but you don't need to be sherlock holmes to draw the deduction of a death guard codex coming soon. the only QUESTION is if it'll come before, after or along side, space marines (or Primaris Marines)

I mean, everything you said would still apply if we just got the two models in a campaign book. We'd even still be a "new" faction without the codex. Two more units would very much be within the bounds of a campaign book.

BrianDavion wrote:


in short GW hasn't come out and said it, but you don't need to be sherlock holmes to draw the deduction of a death guard codex coming soon. the only QUESTION is if it'll come before, after or along side, space marines (or Primaris Marines)

Yeah, I wonder if they will do Primaris releases first and then DG.

I won't be purchasing the index either way, I am waiting for the codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SilverAlien wrote:
I mean, everything you said would still apply if we just got the two models in a campaign book. We'd even still be a "new" faction without the codex. Two more units would very much be within the bounds of a campaign book.

You really think they will be putting Mortarion only in a campaign book? And Terminators too?

Either way, we will have them in our army in the short term.

 Rippy wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:


in short GW hasn't come out and said it, but you don't need to be sherlock holmes to draw the deduction of a death guard codex coming soon. the only QUESTION is if it'll come before, after or along side, space marines (or Primaris Marines)

Yeah, I wonder if they will do Primaris releases first and then DG.

I won't be purchasing the index either way, I am waiting for the codex.

my gut feeling is they'll do a bit of both over a multiweek period. so week 1 will be "multipart kits of the boxed set" week 2 will be "typhus, DG termies and the Primiarus dread," week 3: the primaris tank and morty with the codex dropping in week 3.

just for example

 Rippy wrote:
You really think they will be putting Mortarion only in a campaign book? And Terminators too?

Either way, we will have them in our army in the short term.

I want you to think about every illogical and nonsensical decision we've seen GW make. Really think about it.

Would that even make the top 10?

SilverAlien wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
You really think they will be putting Mortarion only in a campaign book? And Terminators too?

Either way, we will have them in our army in the short term.

I want you to think about every illogical and nonsensical decision we've seen GW make. Really think about it.

Would that even make the top 10?

.. yes.

SilverAlien wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
You really think they will be putting Mortarion only in a campaign book? And Terminators too?

Either way, we will have them in our army in the short term.

I want you to think about every illogical and nonsensical decision we've seen GW make. Really think about it.

Would that even make the top 10?

You didn't answer my question?

 Rippy wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
You really think they will be putting Mortarion only in a campaign book? And Terminators too?

Either way, we will have them in our army in the short term.

I want you to think about every illogical and nonsensical decision we've seen GW make. Really think about it.

Would that even make the top 10?

You didn't answer my question?

Well yes rather clearly I think it wouldn't be a stretch for our primarch to get tucked away in a side book, with any actual codex coming further down the line. It'd be dumb, but that's not new.

SilverAlien wrote:


Well yes rather clearly I think it wouldn't be a stretch for our primarch to get tucked away in a side book, with any actual codex coming further down the line. It'd be dumb, but that's not new.

My point was more about how they could literally do anything with the release, but there is no point in talking about the really unlikely things they could do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Moving on,

This the is the picture I was talking about earlier:



Hopefully we see these cute dudes as a release:




Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Great Unclean ones hopefully shows what is in store for our Death Guard doods as well

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Why is Sabre just ignoring that the Death Guard codex is coming out soon?

Do you have a date?

Are we talking soon as in 3 months time or two weeks?

Is it actually a Codex and not an AoS-style campaign supplement which may include one or two datasheets? Do you have confirmation on that?

The teased Mortarion. Then showed us a Primaris style dreadnought and grav tank. Hmmm. I think that's a solid indication of who's getting first attentions, don't you?

Why are you ignoring Roknar's point - which is quite bloody solid - no matter how soon (or supposedly soon) our release actually is not including 'stopgap' units in a 'stopgap' Index list is bloody moronic. Going by the popular counter argument of 'HUR HUR WELL ONCE THE DG CODEX HITS NO ONE WILL USE THE LIST' - which I have seen used against us a few times, I would like to point out you're shooting your own counter in the foot.

Hell, I've seen the counter argument of 'Oh, maybe it's because Terminators are too OP with Death Guard bubble effects' - so, what, you're perfectly fine telling me we'll be getting T5 Disgustingly Resilient Terminators who will benefit from them but T4 non DR Terminators- just way too OP? Really now?

I had someone try to state it was like Space Wolves.

Except when you switched from RT to 2nd edition and had your Codex come out you could still use all your gak. You didn't suddenly not have units - and your new units were virtually identical in almost every way save the odd heavy weapon. That's not a comparison at all.

Anyone else want to say 'Oh, you can have Pepsi instead' or some equivalent? Or do people just like ignoring a red flag and crossing their fingers?

Roknar has actually been spot on. The issue is - they should never have omitted them in the first place. If the list is a stop gap then including them wouldn't have mattered. If the new book is indeed that close then including them in a stop gap list...wouldn't have mattered. It's such an odd bizarre choice that was made.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Rippy wrote:

If your Terminators are painted as Death Guard, then they are Death Guard. Be a proud son of Mortarion, and stop getting caught up in the keyword Death Guard which doesn't do anything except alter your perception on what is Death Guard in your army

And allow you to benefit from the bubble effects of Typhus, the Lord of Contagion and the Noxious Blightbringer. Oh, and benefit from the effect of Miasma of Pestilence. Oh, an benefit from the bubbles of your Death Guard Chaos Lords and Daemon Princes.

I'm sure having one part of our army causing mortal wounds, being able to advance further on average and being harder to hit, with some rerolls to hit while the other parts get nothing unless we take additional Pepsi character taxes is doing nothing. Right?

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Why is Sabre just ignoring that the Death Guard codex is coming out soon?

Do you have a date?

Are we talking soon as in 3 months time or two weeks?

You are still ignoring his question, it is coming.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Is it actually a Codex and not an AoS-style campaign supplement which may include one or two datasheets? Do you have confirmation on that?

GW have confirmed that codices are coming. Even if not, a campaign supplement would achieve the same thing, so what is the big deal?

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Why are you ignoring Roknar's point - which is quite bloody solid - no matter how soon (or supposedly soon) our release actually is not including 'stopgap' units in a 'stopgap' Index list is bloody moronic. Going by the popular counter argument of 'HUR HUR WELL ONCE THE DG CODEX HITS NO ONE WILL USE THE LIST' - which I have seen used against us a few times, I would like to point out you're shooting your own counter in the foot.

And why are you ignoring my points:
1. You can take them as a stop gap, nothing is stopping you.
2. It is hardly shooting own counter in the foot. GW don't have Plague Terminator models yet, so we didn't get rules. We got standard terminators to take in the list, and will get rules for our new models when they are coming.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Hell, I've seen the counter argument of 'Oh, maybe it's because Terminators are too OP with Death Guard bubble effects' - so, what, you're perfectly fine telling me we'll be getting T5 Disgustingly Resilient Terminators who will benefit from them but T4 non DR Terminators- just way too OP? Really now?

Yeah okay this point is kind of dumb when written like this, but you are missing the point, those terminators WOULD be OP at the same points level. If DG terminators come out all powerful, we will pay more points for that. Gone are the days where we just get more powerful terminators for no reason just because they are marked DG. You want stronger units, you pay for them. Yes I know we had to pay Mark of Nurgle, but that won't cut it for this edition, each unit has it's own points crafted.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Roknar has actually been spot on. The issue is - they should never have omitted them in the first place. If the list is a stop gap then including them wouldn't have mattered. If the new book is indeed that close then including them in a stop gap list...wouldn't have mattered. It's such an odd bizarre choice that was made.

I covered this above, but they were hardly going to release fully fleshed out lists for every single faction upon release. To ask that would be to have this released in 2020, the amount of work that goes in to it.
We have stop gap rules now.
We can take terminators now.
We can use all of our old models now.
YES your unfluffy units will probably be left behind (looking at you bikes). But you want a Death Guard army, you should have a Death Guard army not the strongest stuff rules wise that doesn't make sense.

I am really confused about this anger.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Rippy wrote:

If your Terminators are painted as Death Guard, then they are Death Guard. Be a proud son of Mortarion, and stop getting caught up in the keyword Death Guard which doesn't do anything except alter your perception on what is Death Guard in your army

And allow you to benefit from the bubble effects of Typhus, the Lord of Contagion and the Noxious Blightbringer. Oh, and benefit from the effect of Miasma of Pestilence. Oh, an benefit from the bubbles of your Death Guard Chaos Lords and Daemon Princes.

I'm sure having one part of our army causing mortal wounds, being able to advance further on average and being harder to hit, with some rerolls to hit while the other parts get nothing unless we take additional Pepsi character taxes is doing nothing. Right?

So you are missing out on three effects while waiting for a codex? This is a small price to pay for what we are about to get. See my other points about why they didn't just let us mark everything now.

 Rippy wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Why is Sabre just ignoring that the Death Guard codex is coming out soon?

Do you have a date?

Are we talking soon as in 3 months time or two weeks?

You are still ignoring his question, it is coming.

Actually, I'm not. I'm making the point of the fact we don't have a confirmed date. We've seen teaser images from GW 3-4 months in advance with regards to other releases. We saw images from DI 3-4 months ago yet not hide nor hair of certain units teased then. There have been adverts in White Dwarf of products never released in the past. And to be perfectly honest, we have no timescale. The point of a stop gap is to cover a gap. Why force one player to have an artificially weaker army during the gap when you literally have an approach designed to counter this?

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Is it actually a Codex and not an AoS-style campaign supplement which may include one or two datasheets? Do you have confirmation on that?

GW have confirmed that codices are coming. Even if not, a campaign supplement would achieve the same thing, so what is the big deal?

Well, for one a supplement is likely to have far less crunch in it than a codex. For the other, a campaign supplement is likely to be a chunk more expensive - compare the AoS equivalents to the Battletomes and make the same WUTFACE I have.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Why are you ignoring Roknar's point - which is quite bloody solid - no matter how soon (or supposedly soon) our release actually is not including 'stopgap' units in a 'stopgap' Index list is bloody moronic. Going by the popular counter argument of 'HUR HUR WELL ONCE THE DG CODEX HITS NO ONE WILL USE THE LIST' - which I have seen used against us a few times, I would like to point out you're shooting your own counter in the foot.

And why are you ignoring my points:
1. You can take them as a stop gap, nothing is stopping you.
2. It is hardly shooting own counter in the foot. GW don't have Plague Terminator models yet, so we didn't get rules. We got standard terminators to take in the list, and will get rules for our new models when they are coming.

Ok, here's where I pick this apart.

1. I have already covered why the lack of interaction between Unit X and Y is penalising us even further. That is stopping us.
2. That is contrary to the reassurances that 'our Terminators will be fine'. And that is even more worrying - remember the Thousand Sons? Who suddenly got told HAHAA you have to have Power Swords? In the range where over the past 30 odd years we have literally had TWO Chaos Terminator arms with power swords? So what you ended up with was a bunch of a Thousand Sons players being told - HAHAA BUY THE NEW KITS. Oh boy. I cannot wait for that approach. The more GW step toward the positive - with teasers, more open releases and more information - the more they step backwards with the BUY THE NEW SHINY approach. That's part of what made the past 2 editions so very bad for Chaos - Codex Helldrakes and Dinobots.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Hell, I've seen the counter argument of 'Oh, maybe it's because Terminators are too OP with Death Guard bubble effects' - so, what, you're perfectly fine telling me we'll be getting T5 Disgustingly Resilient Terminators who will benefit from them but T4 non DR Terminators- just way too OP? Really now?

Yeah okay this point is kind of dumb when written like this, but you are missing the point, those terminators WOULD be OP at the same points level. If DG terminators come out all powerful, we will pay more points for that. Gone are the days where we just get more powerful terminators for no reason just because they are marked DG. You want stronger units, you pay for them. Yes I know we had to pay Mark of Nurgle, but that won't cut it for this edition, each unit has it's own points crafted.

And yet allowing half a dozen different units that didn't have access to them, including close combat specialists is perfectly fine in the case of Blood Angels and jump packs? Complete with the Jump Pack Assault rule? There's a glaring inconsistency there.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Roknar has actually been spot on. The issue is - they should never have omitted them in the first place. If the list is a stop gap then including them wouldn't have mattered. If the new book is indeed that close then including them in a stop gap list...wouldn't have mattered. It's such an odd bizarre choice that was made.

I covered this above, but they were hardly going to release fully fleshed out lists for every single faction upon release. To ask that would be to have this released in 2020, the amount of work that goes in to it.
We have stop gap rules now.
We can take terminators now.
We can use all of our old models now.
YES your unfluffy units will probably be left behind (looking at you bikes). But you want a Death Guard army, you should have a Death Guard army not the strongest stuff rules wise that doesn't make sense.

I covered this above. Ah, I see you editted. I love your quip about 'my' unfluffy units - really? You're going to try and throw that at me? Please note, my issues have never been the absence of Bikes or Raptors. But the absence of Chosen, Havocs and Terminators. I love the fact we've had people come in and try to state Death Guard were never Terminator heavy - like, no, go back and read Index Astartes Death Guard - the first article where we got a proper focus as a seperate Legion and not just bundled in with CSM. You'll even find the Terminator focus was present then as well.

I am really confused about this anger.

It's more frustration. Frustration about visible red flags that people are content to stick their head in the sands about thinking everything will be fine. People believing in Soon - oh, rumours say Soon so they must be right. Rumours also said plastic Thunderhawks. Remember those few days after FW stopped producing them where everyone was hyped to all hell...then FW release a NEW version of the Thunderhawk? Oh boy, were our faces red.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Rippy wrote:

If your Terminators are painted as Death Guard, then they are Death Guard. Be a proud son of Mortarion, and stop getting caught up in the keyword Death Guard which doesn't do anything except alter your perception on what is Death Guard in your army

And allow you to benefit from the bubble effects of Typhus, the Lord of Contagion and the Noxious Blightbringer. Oh, and benefit from the effect of Miasma of Pestilence. Oh, an benefit from the bubbles of your Death Guard Chaos Lords and Daemon Princes.

I'm sure having one part of our army causing mortal wounds, being able to advance further on average and being harder to hit, with some rerolls to hit while the other parts get nothing unless we take additional Pepsi character taxes is doing nothing. Right?

So you are missing out on three effects while waiting for a codex? This is a small price to pay for what we are about to get. See my other points about why they didn't just let us mark everything now.

Way to miss Roknar's points about 'stop gaps'.
Way to miss my points about the uncertain date - 2 weeks, 3 months, 4th ed Codex Orks style 6 months. We don't know!

The point is - there should never have been said price in the first place. The nature of a stop gap - same as the 3rd ed rulebook lists, same as Ravening Hordes for 6th ed WFB - is to allow people to use the same armies, with the same benefits until proper books come out.

No other stop gap has removed options based on us getting things that we don't have yet or even have dates for yet.

That's a lot of blind faith you're pouring into GW.

We're definitely getting a Codex! - even BrianDavion is uncertain about that. He's the first one to mention a campaign supplement. Wouldn't that be a kicker, huh? And normally I don't see eye to eye with him. Hell, have him ignored for that reason.

We're definitely getting Plague Terminators! - GW have had a number of instances where a model is shown at Games Day, in a White Dwarf advert or in a teaser and never gets released. We never saw a squad of Terminators. We saw a single Terminator. The Chaos Terminator Lord kit in 5th was meant to have an upgrade sprue with God-specific bits on it - that never made it to production. Hell, at Games Day they were showing a 3-up scale mold for those bits - and when asked if they were ever coming out...they honestly thought they already had. So I don't even pour faith into seeing something like that in a teaser.

As I have stated, my concern is quite simply what it means for those 3 specific units to suddenly go missing without a peep. It's a red flag. And I for one will not be pleased when we get Scarab Occult'd into a fixed layout when we've not had that in any edition. Hell, it was a rub to Thousand Sons who DID have a fixed layout - but the range meant they were taking Power Axes and Mauls - just to get universally shafted into Swords.

I guess we will disagree then, there is no point in going around in circles again. I will state that my edit only fixed the wording of one part, never changed the meaning anywhere, though


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Plague Hulk of Nurgle is on the Forge World list!!!

 Rippy wrote:
I guess we will disagree then, there is no point in going around in circles again. I will state that my edit only fixed the wording of one part, never changed the meaning anywhere, though


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Plague Hulk of Nurgle is on the Forge World list!!!

There's a lot of interesting things on the FW list.

The 30k Daemon Lords.
The Xiphon.
The Mastodon.
The LR Proteus.
The Scorpius.
The Deredo.

But does anyone know wtf a Hellwright or Dark Abeyant is? I'm suspecting it might be Dark Mechanicus to allow us to use This chap. Hell, his mount is described as an abeyant....

Yeah, even Plague Toads and Pox riders from Fantasy

Apart from units that haven't been released yet I wouldn't expect to get anything else. Khorne Daemonkin had csm units missing from it, not counting cult units that wouldn't had made sense. Thousand Sons have legion specific terminators so I'm willing to trust the rumors there, and it would be silly to have an Hq choice in terminator armor but no terminator units. I could also see not getting chosen because our "vets" are the shiny new dudes. The fluff they just put out mentions using close range firepower and I could see them saying that means no havocs.

Not saying I agree with not getting certain units, just showing that there is a chance we could never get them because of a fluff direction GW has chosen to take.

There is no counting on it, but there is always hope

There is also no reason for generic characters to have NO options.

This is 100% because those are the only models for it. I bet everything in the starter set will have more options going forward.

 Leth wrote:
There is also no reason for generic characters to have NO options.

This is 100% because those are the only models for it. I bet everything in the starter set will have more options going forward.

I would not make that assumption or count on that to any degree. Did cultists ever get options beyond autoguns, shotgun for only the leader and flamer and stubber? Surely they could have expanded options, but they don't have models, so GW won't do it. Hell, they dont even give options for the FW cultist models. They are only going to have rules for what they can sell. They will absolutely not leave room for 3rd party companies to make accessories or conversion kits for anything GW produces. That we can count on 100%.

People saying we will have a DG codex are basing this on nothing but blind optimism. We have nothing concrete to base that on. I would say it is much more likely we will get a campaign book that has rules for the 3 kits we know are coming; Mortarian, Terminators and then the plaguemarines kit. 3 plastic kits won't warrant a full codex, and since they won't have models made for nurgle havocs, nurgle chosen, nurgle obliterators or any other units they've removed, we won't get them.

GW still has the new index books to sell, and they won't make those redundant after just a few months. I expect we'll get a primaris codex by fall and no other 40k Codexes until next year and they will continue to sell rules for new models through campaign books like they have for the last couple of years. This is also what they did for the first year of AOS.

And before anyone wants to retort with some more wishful thinking, I want to make it clear I'm not some GW hater that constantly posts negativity about GW. I'm very much a fan of most of the things they have done and are doing. I'm very excited about 8th edition and will continue to play Death Guard in whatever form they take, as I have for the last 10+ years. But don't piss on my head and tell me it's raining; losing all the options we had from Traitor Legions sucks ass. Anyone trying to say otherwise or saying they know with any certain that we will be getting any of those options back, is pulling that out of their ass. We don't know anything for certain, and claiming that we will be getting it all back goes against GWs release strategy of the last several years and points more towards sub factions being much more narrowly focused. This is largely how armies in AOS are, and the all signs point towards them continuing that trend in New 40k. They want us to collect all the brand new units they release, and they design subfactions specifically around those new unit releases. Yea, you can ally and make it work, but you don't get the synergy by doing so, and is basically just a way to prevent riots by elimnating large swaths of people's existing armies wholesale. See the Primaris rollout as an example.

So I was curious enough about what death guard might be getting in the future to find the old legion rules from 3rd(?) edition. I was admittedly surprised by a few things. It made our index make a little more sense though, at least more so than HH did. In fact it is pretty obvious they did a copy paste of the old DG army list.

No heavy weapons on normal CSM/havocs. This one surprised me, largely because they HH sources give them a lot of rules for toxic/poisoned/rad missile launchers as well as the grenade version. So a decent toss up if we will get heavy weapon havocs of any type back (though we should get special weapon ones regardless). So this is why we only have plague marines, because giving us CSM/Havocs/Chosen would've meant including a line about "no heavy weapons". Terminator's with heavy weapons were fine though, so we will likely get some sort of autocannon variant, much as the already reveled plaguespitter is a heavy flamer variant.

We don't get vindicators because CSM didn't have vindicators back then. Yes they really did port our army list that directly it seems. Though they let us keep spawn and helbrute, I'm assuming because someone decided those were the equivalent of daemonic beasts and chaos dreadnought. This is also why we lack access to the newer daemonic engines, only keeping the defiler. They literally pulled our old 3rd edition army list, gave us the closest equivalent of all previous units (ignoring havocs and terminators/chosen), and called it a day.

We also lost bolt pistols on plague marines because 3rd edition plague marines could only get CC weapon and their choice of a bolt pistol or bolter. However, they also got true grit back then, so maybe we will get to fire our bolters in close combat?

So our index is literally a conversion of the 3rd edition death guard list, with a couple of omissions for the presumably incoming chosen/terminator equivalent, and the new units added on top. So at least we now have a (lazy and kinda bad) reason for the choices they made and at least they are drawing from what most chaos players agree is the best codex CSM ever had. Assuming that the laziness is due to an incoming DG codex, this does bode well.

 Starfarer wrote:

 Leth wrote:
There is also no reason for generic characters to have NO options.

This is 100% because those are the only models for it. I bet everything in the starter set will have more options going forward.

I would not make that assumption or count on that to any degree. Did cultists ever get options beyond autoguns, shotgun for only the leader and flamer and stubber? Surely they could have expanded options, but they don't have models, so GW won't do it. Hell, they dont even give options for the FW cultist models. They are only going to have rules for what they can sell. They will absolutely not leave room for 3rd party companies to make accessories or conversion kits for anything GW produces. That we can count on 100%.

People saying we will have a DG codex are basing this on nothing but blind optimism. We have nothing concrete to base that on. I would say it is much more likely we will get a campaign book that has rules for the 3 kits we know are coming; Mortarian, Terminators and then the plaguemarines kit. 3 plastic kits won't warrant a full codex, and since they won't have models made for nurgle havocs, nurgle chosen, nurgle obliterators or any other units they've removed, we won't get them.

GW still has the new index books to sell, and they won't make those redundant after just a few months. I expect we'll get a primaris codex by fall and no other 40k Codexes until next year and they will continue to sell rules for new models through campaign books like they have for the last couple of years. This is also what they did for the first year of AOS.

And before anyone wants to retort with some more wishful thinking, I want to make it clear I'm not some GW hater that constantly posts negativity about GW. I'm very much a fan of most of the things they have done and are doing. I'm very excited about 8th edition and will continue to play Death Guard in whatever form they take, as I have for the last 10+ years. But don't piss on my head and tell me it's raining; losing all the options we had from Traitor Legions sucks ass. Anyone trying to say otherwise or saying they know with any certain that we will be getting any of those options back, is pulling that out of their ass. We don't know anything for certain, and claiming that we will be getting it all back goes against GWs release strategy of the last several years and points more towards sub factions being much more narrowly focused. This is largely how armies in AOS are, and the all signs point towards them continuing that trend in New 40k. They want us to collect all the brand new units they release, and they design subfactions specifically around those new unit releases. Yea, you can ally and make it work, but you don't get the synergy by doing so, and is basically just a way to prevent riots by elimnating large swaths of people's existing armies wholesale. See the Primaris rollout as an example.

Well for starters we already know the primaris have units that are not in the index. We know death guard are getting units not in the index. The generic characters are currently limited to what is in the starter set, however I highly doubt it will remain as such. We already know from the dark imperium novel that the units we have seen have additional kit out options in the books. We already know that there are plastic nurgle terminators and nurgle marine kits coming that will problably have their own name like the scarab occult terminators.

Once again I am not saying 100% that this will happen, it just seems like the most likely option and quite frankly this is better than you pissing in my cereal before I get to even enjoy it it.

MadMartigan805 wrote:
Anyone notice that all the Plague marine models in the death guard announcement video aren't the models that are included with the Plague marine unit in the new box set. Go ahead. Go watch the video and look at the pics and try and match them up. I'm thinking mutlipart plague marine kits coming soon?

I also just want to say that a year ago I promised myself that I wouldn't buy any new codexs because all the rumors of 8th. Then Traitor legions came out and I just had to, Papa Nurgle just could not be denied... then this... Feels like a waste of money.

This was my first though once the "Dark Imperium" boxset contents were revealed. Literally all the plague marines in that teaser video (except for the Noxcious Blightbringer) were from a soon-to-come multi part plastic kit. All of these are not from the starter:


I'd also like to note that there are a few Nurgle creatures in this which don't currently have models.



As Rippy noted the plague toad seen in the bottom left, as well as what looks to me like a greater demon of Nurgle fighting on the ridge on either side of the column. Lastly there are a few bloat flies without riders which seem much chunkier than the plague drones we currently have. As GW doesn't make art for sets unless they exist, and because every other creature/marine in that picture is accurately drawn to look like the model down to the tiniest detail, the reasonable conclusion is that we should also expect to see 1) Nurgle Dino's (toads), 2) Nurgle Greater Demon of some sort 3) Larger bloat flies

I can't wait for the codex/larger release! Luckily I'll be busy painting the starter set marines until then.

Also from the Frontline Gaming live Q&A they said that "Death Guard are one of the weakest armies for now" (emphasis is mine), so hopefully we get some extra tools to be decent in the near future :(
At least the gap between the best and worst units is a lot smaller in 8th than in 7th from what we have seen and what they have been saying.

I didnt say we wouldnt get units not in the index. I said its unlikely we get units they havent made models for, which means we are unlikely to get back havocs, chosen, obliterators etc. We'll get a very specific terminator loadout and thats it for those.

And while the entirety of my last comment wasn't directed specifically at you, I'm not the one pissing in your cereal. GW pissed in your cereal and you're blaming everyone who's pointing out they did it.

 Starfarer wrote:
I didnt say we wouldnt get units not in the index. I said its unlikely we get units they havent made models for, which means we are unlikely to get back havocs, chosen, obliterators etc. We'll get a very specific terminator loadout and thats it for those.

And while the entirety of my last comment wasn't directed specifically at you, I'm not the one pissing in your cereal. GW pissed in your cereal and you're blaming everyone who's pointing out they did it.

No they are not, they might piss in my cereal later, but you and those like you are doing it right now. I will take the possibility later over the guaranteed now.

 Starfarer wrote:
I didnt say we wouldnt get units not in the index. I said its unlikely we get units they havent made models for, which means we are unlikely to get back havocs, chosen, obliterators etc. We'll get a very specific terminator loadout and thats it for those.

'Units they haven't made models for.'



Mighty awkward decision that one.

Just going to say...

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Starfarer wrote:
I didnt say we wouldnt get units not in the index. I said its unlikely we get units they havent made models for, which means we are unlikely to get back havocs, chosen, obliterators etc. We'll get a very specific terminator loadout and thats it for those.

'Units they haven't made models for.'



Mighty awkward decision that one.

Just going to say...

What exactly is your point showing models than have been OOP for 2 editions? They don't currently make models for them, hence they won't get rules in the current edition.

 Starfarer wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Starfarer wrote:
I didnt say we wouldnt get units not in the index. I said its unlikely we get units they havent made models for, which means we are unlikely to get back havocs, chosen, obliterators etc. We'll get a very specific terminator loadout and thats it for those.

'Units they haven't made models for.'



Mighty awkward decision that one.

Just going to say...

What exactly is your point showing models than have been OOP for 2 editions? They don't currently make models for them, hence they won't get rules in the current edition.

Ah, right, I forgot we have a current Imperial Space Marine that's still available as well.

 Leth wrote:

 Starfarer wrote:
I didnt say we wouldnt get units not in the index. I said its unlikely we get units they havent made models for, which means we are unlikely to get back havocs, chosen, obliterators etc. We'll get a very specific terminator loadout and thats it for those.

And while the entirety of my last comment wasn't directed specifically at you, I'm not the one pissing in your cereal. GW pissed in your cereal and you're blaming everyone who's pointing out they did it.

No they are not, they might piss in my cereal later, but you and those like you are doing it right now. I will take the possibility later over the guaranteed now.

Ok, ignore all the evidence to the contrary because it isn't what you want to hear.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Starfarer wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Starfarer wrote:
I didnt say we wouldnt get units not in the index. I said its unlikely we get units they havent made models for, which means we are unlikely to get back havocs, chosen, obliterators etc. We'll get a very specific terminator loadout and thats it for those.

'Units they haven't made models for.'



Mighty awkward decision that one.

Just going to say...

What exactly is your point showing models than have been OOP for 2 editions? They don't currently make models for them, hence they won't get rules in the current edition.

Ah, right, I forgot we have a current Imperial Space Marine that's still available as well.

given the rules for it where released in 7th edition it is indeed current. the index provides rules for everything they produced in the last edition.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Starfarer wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Starfarer wrote:
I didnt say we wouldnt get units not in the index. I said its unlikely we get units they havent made models for, which means we are unlikely to get back havocs, chosen, obliterators etc. We'll get a very specific terminator loadout and thats it for those.

'Units they haven't made models for.'



Mighty awkward decision that one.

Just going to say...

What exactly is your point showing models than have been OOP for 2 editions? They don't currently make models for them, hence they won't get rules in the current edition.

Ah, right, I forgot we have a current Imperial Space Marine that's still available as well.

Ok, so you don't actually have a point. Got it.

Let me know when we have a unit called Death Guard havocs and/ot those old metal model are released and given rules.

I've always wanted to pick up those DG Havocs too.

Anyway, posted on the other thread but, aside from the fun modeling opportunities, is there any point to take the plasma gun power fist listed over a Combi plasma gun?

What was the point of this option? I already started the conversions but seems like the extra use of the bolter is decent for 2 pts

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I've always wanted to pick up those DG Havocs too.

Anyway, posted on the other thread but, aside from the fun modeling opportunities, is there any point to take the plasma gun power fist listed over a Combi plasma gun?

What was the point of this option? I already started the conversions but seems like the extra use of the bolter is decent for 2 pts

Combi bolter locks you out of any weapon options (besides plague sword). So if you want a power fist and some extra firepower, that option is there for you.

 Starfarer wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Starfarer wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Starfarer wrote:
I didnt say we wouldnt get units not in the index. I said its unlikely we get units they havent made models for, which means we are unlikely to get back havocs, chosen, obliterators etc. We'll get a very specific terminator loadout and thats it for those.

'Units they haven't made models for.'



Mighty awkward decision that one.

Just going to say...

What exactly is your point showing models than have been OOP for 2 editions? They don't currently make models for them, hence they won't get rules in the current edition.

Ah, right, I forgot we have a current Imperial Space Marine that's still available as well.

Ok, so you don't actually have a point. Got it.

Let me know when we have a unit called Death Guard havocs and/ot those old metal model are released and given rules.

Nice to see that you've decided that YOUR rules can apply to one situation and not the other.

Do GW currently produce CSM Havocs in a kit with Plasma Guns, Flamers and Meltaguns? No, you'll find they do not. Yet our Havocs can choose from the Special Weapons list. 'OH, but you can make Special Weapon Havocs with other kits!' - that's your counter right?

Do they produce a kit for Chosen?

Not like that same counter applies perfectly well to Death Guard Havocs as well. The fact you don't want to acknowledge that they produced a kit for such a unit in the past and the fact that such a unit continued to exist through multiple editions is your problem, not mine. You don't get to say the rule applies to what you want it to and not to what you do NOT want it to apply to. That's not how it works son.

Spartan is looking pretty bloody good for Death Guard.
Thinking I will load mine up with 5 DG termies, Typhus, and 13 zombies (well, Pox Walkers).
Having 2 or 3 squads of Plague Marines in Rhinos, and the plague hulk is sounding fairly amazing right now!
Bring on 8th starter, our codex (eventually) and the FW index!

 VyRa wrote:
Well, i'm mostly hoping for a Death Guard release in the near future. Glimpses of Mortarion and the Death Guard Terminators that you mentioned seem to make this likely.

Personally i used to play my Army in a not very fluffy way, depending on Bikers, Raptors and Havocs a lot - all of which are no longer available to us. While i understand that Bikes and Raptors are gone, the removal of Havocs in general just makes it hard for me to even field a playable army right now. Personally i have no idea how to beat, let alone come close to an enemy gun line right now. New units like the Bloat Drones seem to be quite strong, but only time and some games will show, if they are actually able to balance the scales here.

So it seems that the 8th Edition brings a return to the multi-gods lists of old. Personally i suppose my Death Guard will simply be rebranded into the nurgle-themed Chaos Warband Heralds of Corrosion, so that i will be able to stick with my units of old. At least for now.

Heh I used to love DG bikes and sorcerers on bikes, havocs as well with their ability to move and shoot heavy weapons


Raptors in 8 ed, especially Nurgles raptors are the BEST Raptors, cause you get a -2 to enemy Leadership with an Icon, they're gonna be a bane to shooty weak morale armies

Dovis wrote:


Heh I used to love DG bikes and sorcerers on bikes, havocs as well with their ability to move and shoot heavy weapons


Raptors in 8 ed, especially Nurgles raptors are the BEST Raptors, cause you get a -2 to enemy Leadership with an Icon, they're gonna be a bane to shooty weak morale armies

Welcome to Dakka

I won't be sad to see bikes and raptors go from a DG army list to be honest, considering how unfluffy they are.

People keep saying they're unfluffy, they're not. The background states that the Death Guard "Placed little emphasis" on specialist troops using jump packs or bikes, not that they all evaporated, they're arguably more common than things like Relic Sicarians (which we will have access to) and Xiphon Interceptors (ditto)

By contrast, there's precisely zero background that states the Death Guard don't have infantry heavy weapons, and yet people lie down and accept that.

Then there's this snippet: "the Death Guard did not have dedicated Assault and Tactical squads as such; all his Space Marines were expected by Mortarion to be equally adept with bolter, pistol and close combat weapon, to fight with whatever weapon circumstance dictated."

*Bolt Pistol*

 Rippy wrote:

Dovis wrote:


Heh I used to love DG bikes and sorcerers on bikes, havocs as well with their ability to move and shoot heavy weapons


Raptors in 8 ed, especially Nurgles raptors are the BEST Raptors, cause you get a -2 to enemy Leadership with an Icon, they're gonna be a bane to shooty weak morale armies

Welcome to Dakka

I won't be sad to see bikes and raptors go from a DG army list to be honest, considering how unfluffy they are.

Thanks

Well, I'll just take a separate detachment of Raptors next to my DG, they're gonna be perfect vs the likes of Tau or Admech, -2 leadership, they're gonna run away so fast, on a moderatly lucky roll you can for example jump down an kill 2 Kastelan Robots with 5 Raptors (meltas + power fist) without them getting a chance of attacking (not counting overwatch

Once again CSM gets the shaft, my army is now 75% generic crapness.

Death to the False Emperor, woopdeedoo. A crappy bonus that only applies against one (admittedly broad) faction and only really works for an assault (khorne berserker rush) army.

Meanwhile AdMech get insane shooty and punchy robots and great army-wide buffs, because reasons.

I built my army round a vectorium. Bikes and Terminators and all the rest were allowed there. What gives, geedubs? :(

Charax wrote:

Spoiler:

People keep saying they're unfluffy, they're not. The background states that the Death Guard "Placed little emphasis" on specialist troops using jump packs or bikes, not that they all evaporated, they're arguably more common than things like Relic Sicarians (which we will have access to) and Xiphon Interceptors (ditto)

By contrast, there's precisely zero background that states the Death Guard don't have infantry heavy weapons, and yet people lie down and accept that.

Then there's this snippet: "the Death Guard did not have dedicated Assault and Tactical squads as such; all his Space Marines were expected by Mortarion to be equally adept with bolter, pistol and close combat weapon, to fight with whatever weapon circumstance dictated."

*Bolt Pistol*

When I say unfluffy, I just mean that they would be much more uncommon than other units; they are not really famous for their raptor cults and bikers really don't make sense for Death Guard. Trikes would be better than 2 wheeler bikes.

The fluff page opposite the death guard unit list even mentions *terminators*....

It's just a huge facepalm lulwhut.

Anyway - I appreciate whining doesn't help here, so a quick strategy point. If you deploy a unit 'in orbit/teleportarium' you're effectively giving yourself more info (as your opponent has to then deploy theirs). I'm assuming - could be wrong - deploying a transport also effectively deploys the units inside. So you could deploy a rhino with two 5-man plague marine squads, and you're effectively getting 3 units on the table. Can this be used to abuse the 'deploy last, go second' rule?

Well, btm GW ****ed chaos space marines in comparison to space marines.... Nothing new sadly Hahahaha haha.

The new plague marines are worst than old ones. They lost the guns, the plague knives are worst, the plague nades and no more fearless....

Damn, an intercessor is fairy better with those two wounds, boltrifles and morale resistance.

 Rippy wrote:

When I say unfluffy, I just mean that they would be much more uncommon than other units; they are not really famous for their raptor cults and bikers really don't make sense for Death Guard. Trikes would be better than 2 wheeler bikes.

I'm sorry, let me wrap my head around this:

You are against Bikes and Jump Pack troops because they are "Unfluffy" - meaning they're not very common (even though, as Ive just pointed out, there are much rarer things we CAN take). But you're Pro Death Guard getting units like Trikes, which they have never, ever had*, and have only existed for a single army, which got Squatted

Is that an accurate representation of what you've just said? because that's what I'm getting from what you wrote



*(Unless you count Attack Bikes, which would mean you'd be advocating Attack Bikes but not regular Bikes)

That is the point. By official lore death guard does an intensive use of terminators... But now they quit them.

DG is very specific on the training on their marines. All plague Marines used bolter, combat weapon and boltgun. Now they quit the boltgun by the face haha.

DG is very used to use heavy weapons units. But they quit havoc and obliterators....

DG have lot of veterans marines (aka chosens). They quit them.

And of course they quit bikes too.

K
And people wonder why complaining? Hahaha. With the only focus of nerf, they ****ed their own lore hahahahaha

Charax wrote:


People keep saying they're unfluffy, they're not. The background states that the Death Guard "Placed little emphasis" on specialist troops using jump packs or bikes, not that they all evaporated, they're arguably more common than things like Relic Sicarians (which we will have access to) and Xiphon Interceptors (ditto)

By contrast, there's precisely zero background that states the Death Guard don't have infantry heavy weapons, and yet people lie down and accept that.

Then there's this snippet: "the Death Guard did not have dedicated Assault and Tactical squads as such; all his Space Marines were expected by Mortarion to be equally adept with bolter, pistol and close combat weapon, to fight with whatever weapon circumstance dictated."

*Bolt Pistol*

I can imagine those jump troops taking off to various flatulent sound effects.

As for havocs/raptors/bikes, etc, I'm in the "Wait patiently, like a death guard" camp. The starter set isn't out yet, the remaining DG goodness isn't out yet and the codices aren't out yet. They may come back under a different guise or a unit might be able to be kitted out, mimicking havocs, etc. It's just a 'wait and see' thing. It sucks, yes, but once 8th launches, the sprues shall flow. We know Morty is coming, as are multi-part DG and DG termies. This has been leaked from GW. Plague beasties are teased as well in the rumour engine posts GW does.

Hate to break this to you, but all the Codices have been spoiled, and I can categorically tell you that CSM are NOT in the top 5 armies.

Charax wrote:

 Rippy wrote:

When I say unfluffy, I just mean that they would be much more uncommon than other units; they are not really famous for their raptor cults and bikers really don't make sense for Death Guard. Trikes would be better than 2 wheeler bikes.

I'm sorry, let me wrap my head around this:

You are against Bikes and Jump Pack troops because they are "Unfluffy" - meaning they're not very common (even though, as Ive just pointed out, there are much rarer things we CAN take). But you're Pro Death Guard getting units like Trikes, which they have never, ever had*, and have only existed for a single army, which got Squatted

Is that an accurate representation of what you've just said? because that's what I'm getting from what you wrote



*(Unless you count Attack Bikes, which would mean you'd be advocating Attack Bikes but not regular Bikes)

No sorry, an accurate representation of what I meant is if you are going to take an unfluffy unit like a Nurgle bike, at least take one that makes sense like a trike. A rusty old gakked up bike on two wheels, with a fat slobbery Plague Marine on the back? Just doesn't sit right with me.
Also zero fluff I have read has a Death Guard on a bike, nor can I remember any DG with a jump pack...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

zerosignal wrote:
Hate to break this to you, but all the Codices have been spoiled, and I can categorically tell you that CSM are NOT in the top 5 armies.

You mean Indices have been spoiled, our codex could make us shining stars again

My nurgle bikers are chaos knight conversionated with nurgle units parts as well chaos space marine pieces, all riding plague horses.

And my chaos lord is a really fat nurgle lord riding a worm.




With a bit of creativity all could fits to Nurgle haha

Also long time ago I did


A shame now must be generic chaos terminators with no extra effect because cant be part of DG and marks "not exist anymore"

 Rippy wrote:

nor can I remember any DG with a jump pack...

You may want to catch up on the 30k stuff then.

They're called Destroyers. They were known for using 'dirty' weapons. Unsurprisingly the Death Guard was very fond of having a unit that utilised chemical weaponry.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Rippy wrote:

nor can I remember any DG with a jump pack...

You may want to catch up on the 30k stuff then.

They're called Destroyers. They were known for using 'dirty' weapons. Unsurprisingly the Death Guard was very fond of having a unit that utilised chemical weaponry.

40k isn't 30k.

People keep saying they're unfluffy, they're not. The background states that the Death Guard "Placed little emphasis" on specialist troops using jump packs or bikes, not that they all evaporated, they're arguably more common than things like Relic Sicarians (which we will have access to) and Xiphon Interceptors (ditto)

By contrast, there's precisely zero background that states the Death Guard don't have infantry heavy weapons, and yet people lie down and accept that.

Then there's this snippet: "the Death Guard did not have dedicated Assault and Tactical squads as such; all his Space Marines were expected by Mortarion to be equally adept with bolter, pistol and close combat weapon, to fight with whatever weapon circumstance dictated."

In 3.5 there were lines that supported this, and disallowed Lascannon, Heavy Bolters, Multimelta, and Missile launchers on Infantry units if you took a Death Guard Legion Army.

You may want to catch up on the 30k stuff then.

They're called Destroyers. They were known for using 'dirty' weapons.

Which are pretty much retcons to the fluff, but I can dig it not like things haven't changed before.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

People keep saying they're unfluffy, they're not. The background states that the Death Guard "Placed little emphasis" on specialist troops using jump packs or bikes, not that they all evaporated, they're arguably more common than things like Relic Sicarians (which we will have access to) and Xiphon Interceptors (ditto)

By contrast, there's precisely zero background that states the Death Guard don't have infantry heavy weapons, and yet people lie down and accept that.

Then there's this snippet: "the Death Guard did not have dedicated Assault and Tactical squads as such; all his Space Marines were expected by Mortarion to be equally adept with bolter, pistol and close combat weapon, to fight with whatever weapon circumstance dictated."

In 3.5 there were lines that supported this, and disallowed Lascannon, Heavy Bolters, Multimelta, and Missile launchers on Infantry units if you took a Death Guard Legion Army.

To be perfectly honest, the worst bit about that bizarre restriction was that it was shown in the same section which had 'title' artwork of a Death Guard Plague Marine with a Heavy Bolter. The original Index Astartes article had ANOTHER piece of art of a Death Guard marine with a heavy bolter.

If anything I'd view the restrictions more as - they probably don't maintain overly complicated weaponry that well - which technically Lascannons, Missile Launchers and a few others are...but the more simple mechanical weapons that are essentially glorified Bolters in how they function I should imagine should be a simple enough.

Hence why when we did get access to Heavy weapons I went with things like Heavy Bolters and Autocannons. Logically those would be easier to maintain in an environment of decay.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

40k isn't 30k.

However the origins of a Legion lie in 30k, as such the flavour of a Legion in 40k should have some nod towards its 30k organisation. World Eaters were assault based, Thousand Sons were Sorcerer heavy, Emperor's Children have access to Sonics and a strong assault core. FW are actively expanding on this in some ways as a nod to the 40k players of those armies.

So how much of this wailing is moot once the actual DG book comes out? GW said they're written and in the playtesting phase already.

Great, having spent money on Traitor Legions (invalid 6 months later) and pre-ordered chaos index (soon to be invalid, absolute pile) I can soon look forwards to wasting more money.

Great.

zerosignal wrote:
Great, having spent money on Traitor Legions (invalid 6 months later) and pre-ordered chaos index (soon to be invalid, absolute pile) I can soon look forwards to wasting more money.

Great.

Don't spend any more of your money then, if you think it's such a waste!

And the index is like 30$, you're not exactly making a huge investment. Skip on eating out once or twice in the future and you'd break even.

And it's not like it's just Death Guard in the book either. You could split the cost of the book with a friend, that's what my group is doing - we don't need multiple copies when we all play at the same place.

 Clanan wrote:
So how much of this wailing is moot once the actual DG book comes out? GW said they're written and in the playtesting phase already.

Depends how good a job they do. Depends on when it comes out. Depends on what all we actually end up getting.

It's entirely possible that the DG codex comes out and DG is non viable as a stand alone faction, and you'd be better of running generic nurgle CSM army, meaning all we will really get is a couple new units that aren't even all that impressive as it stands.

@DarkSabre
>Destroyers
Are you referencing the 30k rules as fluff?
Because I have read most of the HH series and can't remember a single flying Death Guard utilising a jump pack.
If there is an instance, please let me know so I can re-read that book and be enlightened.

The wikis never mention jump packs being a DG speciality either.

People are still seriously holding out hope that they will give us the ability to make any csm unit <deathguard>? The thousand sons don't have the option to mark any unit <thousand sons>. Their army list is just as restrictive as ours. As I've already pointed out Khorne Daemonkin didn't have access to every noncult unit from the csm book either. I don't understand where this belief is coming from.

If you want to win with death guard all of this energy being spent to whine about what has already been done should be spent finding ways to make them work. Even if they aren't technically <deathguard> units like havocs still add firepower to the list. And we can easily take nurgle daemons to help bolster the ranks.

Maybe instead of focusing on wanting everyone to be from the deathguard legion start thinking of it as a hardened group of deathguard veterans leading the unwashed nurgle hordes into battle.

Well, it was mentioned they enjoyed fielding destroyers, most of whom were armed with different types of pistols and hand held explosives.

From which we can conclude one of the following is true:

1. The DG used transports to get them close enough to use their weapons
2. The DG used jump packs to get them close enough to use their weapons
3. The DG (as well as their primarch) routinely fielded them in the most idiotic way ever, one that would almost never be effective against anyone who wasn't an absolute moron.

So either the DG (and their primarch) were raging morons, the DG didn't utilize toxic, phosphex, and radiation based weaponry on a routine basis and likely used it far less than most legions, or the DG used transports/jump packs on a routine basis.

That's kinda where we find ourselves at moment. You can get away with arguing that fielding guys with bolters and having them slog it isn't that unreasonable, not so much when they get pistols and various short range explosives.

orkychaos wrote:
People are still seriously holding out hope that they will give us the ability to make any csm unit <deathguard>? The thousand sons don't have the option to mark any unit <thousand sons>. Their army list is just as restrictive as ours. As I've already pointed out Khorne Daemonkin didn't have access to every noncult unit from the csm book either. I don't understand where this belief is coming from.

Every unit? No. The units which make sense and work together to create a viable stand alone army? Yes.

For example, if we had terminators with deepstriking, the lack of faster options isn't a big issue, we have a fluffy method of bypassing it. Or some variety of vanguard (scout) type movement after deployment. Both are fluffier than letting everyone pile into rhinos.

Also, vindicators are removed from our list purely because they didn't exist in the DG army list from back in late 3rd edition, because they weren't on the CSM army list at all. That's despite them being established since as DGs favored vehicle.

In short, I'd like our list to be fluffy and still moderately effective. Failing that, I'd take fluffy or effective. As it stands, it is neither fluffy nor does it work as a stand alone force, making it a total failure.

You should read Flight of the Eisenstein, SilverAlien, they rarely use transports, though through use of boarding torpedoes, or launching a distraction while sneaking up from the other side to get in closer is more their thing.

Not flying up walls ahead of their lines in jump packs.
Not zooming around the battlefield on bikes.

And anyone who probably didn't like to follow that doctrine would have ended up on Istvaan anyway.

That's all I will say on this topic, I think everyone knows my opinion on this now

 Rippy wrote:
You should read Flight of the Eisenstein, SilverAlien, they rarely use transports, though through use of boarding torpedoes, or launching a distraction while sneaking up from the other side to get in closer is more their thing.

Not flying up walls ahead of their lines in jump packs.
Not zooming around the battlefield on bikes.

And anyone who probably didn't like to follow that doctrine would have ended up on Istvaan anyway.

That's all I will say on this topic, I think everyone knows my opinion on this now

Hey I wouldn't be adverse to some infiltrating or deepstriking kamikaze units, but that's not how destroyers are described nor how rules represent them. Plus it's not how DG are represented in 40k or 30k rules either, DG have more rules restricting them from deepstrike in 30k than jump packs, and in 40k DG have almost no deepstriking. Neither has penalties or restrictions on transports either, while 40k DG and CSM as a whole hasn't had any infiltration to speak of for a few editions now.

Our list remains neither fluffy nor effective. Both would be best, I'd settle for removing the inane restrictions if they aren't going to balance it out properly (and with bloat flies being the new pyrovore in an edition where pyrovores are usable, they aren't) since they aren't getting the fluff correct anyways.

Unless they add lot of new awesome units AND increase the plague marines wounds to 2... the restrictions are a pain.

Joined with the fact that new plague marines are worst versions of old ones

orkychaos wrote:
People are still seriously holding out hope that they will give us the ability to make any csm unit <deathguard>? The thousand sons don't have the option to mark any unit <thousand sons>. Their army list is just as restrictive as ours. As I've already pointed out Khorne Daemonkin didn't have access to every noncult unit from the csm book either. I don't understand where this belief is coming from.

If you want to win with death guard all of this energy being spent to whine about what has already been done should be spent finding ways to make them work. Even if they aren't technically <deathguard> units like havocs still add firepower to the list. And we can easily take nurgle daemons to help bolster the ranks.

Maybe instead of focusing on wanting everyone to be from the deathguard legion start thinking of it as a hardened group of deathguard veterans leading the unwashed nurgle hordes into battle.

Ahem. The Thousand Sons list is by no means as restrictive as the current Death Guard list - if anything it's a lot more flexible as Daemon Engines and Vindicators made the cut. IF you compare the two - and then consider what we know to have been painted in the Studio armies then the lists make sense as to how they came to them.

Wade Pryce saved World Eaters players - his army pretty much has everything from the CSM list in it and as a result they made decisions based on that.
Matt Hutson's personal army is clearly the basis of what they let into the Thousand Sons choices - a lot more restrictive but still better than what the Death Guard got...

Which is a list that looks...dated.

Because it's literally based off what they had in their Studio army cabinets - which when they last painted a CSM army proper was way back in 3rd edition - Daemon Prince, Typhus, Plague Marines - check. Defiler - check. Predator and Land Raider, check.

Trying to compare the index lists to KDK is also...moot. KDK is a single edition faction. I wouldn't use it as the basis of everything. And when you say they didn't have access to everything...well that's great. They did however combine Daemons and CSM and also made Possessed and Warp Talons not utter trash through stacking the Mark of and Daemon of rules. But they were also a short lived experiment of a concept.

DG literally has a single anti tank unit, the predator, unless you want to count the HQ choices or a landraider (and I will start shouting if someone tries to tell me the landraider is a good choice for dedicated anti tank).

It is not currently a functional list. It... might be a functional list eventually, but that's debatable.

Actually... is there anything even useful the DG have?

Default psychic discipline is better, but I guess we get two in faction.

Plague marines as troops... but beserkers and noise marines are as good (arguably better) for their cost. EC has no real restriction either.

The bloat drone costs as much as a vindicator and has two slightly better flamers as weapons. Again, utter trash.

Our unique HQ radial ability is CC exclusive on a slow legion isn't that good in CC.

Typhus and poxwalkers, that's it. The only potentially good thing.

Death Guard sould be the most resiliant force of Chaos Space Marines and be a short range shooting army mixed with a good meele.

Thats if you want them to be a proper subfactions with pros and cons.

Bikes and Jumpacks can be totally fluffy. Afterall, in 30k all legions used all the same equipement, just in different proportions. But you can't have all the Cultists factions having everything. If you want that, just play a generic CSM army.

And I'm not saying this to justifie the actual DG list of the Index. Just talking in general to their future.

 Galas wrote:
Death Guard sould be the most resiliant force of Chaos Space Marines and be a short range shooting army mixed with a good meele.

Thats if you want them to be a proper subfactions with pros and cons.

Bikes and Jumpacks can be totally fluffy. Afterall, in 30k all legions used all the same equipement, just in different proportions. But you can't have all the Cultists factions having everything. If you want that, just play a generic CSM army.

And I'm not saying this to justifie the actual DG list of the Index. Just talking in general to their future.

You see, I don't agree with that approach. 'You don't want all the sub-factions having everything!'

I want our sub-factions to be on par with Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves - who pretty much have everything from their respective books for the most part. In some cases they have more. And in the case of the new shiny Primaris they're getting those too.

I don't think us losing options is quite the approach we should be settling for.

Actually, all of those armies don't have everything. Centurions for example, and some other units. But I think that they should have even less.

if not you end like the old SPace Wolves. Space Marines+++.

Thats not how you do proper sub-factions. A good sub-facion is a more specialized force with a more restricted playstile and unit rosters but that is better in their speciality and with some special units focused in their "ethos".

People always accepted that for example, a good Khorne sub-faction/army should lack any shooting capability and be a beast in meele. In old fantasy and AoS it works that way. And different factions have much more character.

But obviously, this comes down to personal preference and how one sees the relation faction-subfaction.

I see all the arguments and understand the possible reasoning. What still tans my hide is I built a vectorium, maulerfiends, bikes, havocs, which I did not own prior to the suppliment coming out. I had heldrakes already and I used the gak out of them. So I just don't understand regardless of the reasons listed how they could not consider the models sold because of old rules, and then make them unusable, thus back door invalidating them, as Deathguard. I know I can still take them, and just not get benefits but it does tan my hide a bit.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:


That's not how it works son.

If that's the type of tone you're going to continue to take, I'm not bothering to debate your nonsense when it is clear what GW's policies are regarding this stuff. This isn't "my rules" it's the practices GW has had in place for years now, stemming from the Chapter house lawsuit.

Just take Forgeworld to flesh out your lists until the codex drops.
Spartan has 8 lascannons shots, awesome.
Plague Hulk should be exciting as well, haven't seen rules yet.

And once we have Mortarion and our other missing puzzle pieces, we will all be in for a good time

Also you CAN still play 7th, if you are unhappy with the state of Death Guard, until we get codex.

Not sure if someone has mentioned this..

But Noxious Blightbringer debuffs friendly models within 7" as well as the enemy..

GodDamUser wrote:
Not sure if someone has mentioned this..

But Noxious Blightbringer debuffs friendly models within 7" as well as the enemy..

I actually thought that the first time I read it, but they do specify "units within range of an enemy blightbringer". Why they didn't go with "enemy units within range of a blightbringer" I don't know, because that's at least two of us now who didn't catch that.

 Rippy wrote:
Just take Forgeworld to flesh out your lists until the codex drops.
Spartan has 8 lascannons shots, awesome.
Plague Hulk should be exciting as well, haven't seen rules yet.

And once we have Mortarion and our other missing puzzle pieces, we will all be in for a good time

Also you CAN still play 7th, if you are unhappy with the state of Death Guard, until we get codex.

We also don't know that spartans (or plaguehulks) can even officially be deathguard to my knowledge. No idea if enough communication between GW and FW happened for them to realize they need to make a note of expanding the DG (or tsons) list.

You assume morty will be worth taking. People still aren't sure magnus is worth the points.

We could still be playing 2nd or 3rd edition as well. Or 5th. Just depends on what everyone is playing... which will probably be 8th.

Hoping that DG and Morty are out in July (7th month and all). 4+ months from a teaser video to release is a little cruel.

I am making a few assumptions, you are right SilverAlien. :(
The communication between GW and FW would have been very high, but let's hope that the Spartan has a sentance that says "in addition to the tables contained in the index, add this vehicle to all <Legion> keyword tables" or something along those lines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marshal Loss wrote:
Hoping that DG and Morty are out in July (7th month and all). 4+ months from a teaser video to release is a little cruel.

Would be a good month to count the seven!

 Galas wrote:
Actually, all of those armies don't have everything. Centurions for example, and some other units. But I think that they should have even less.

if not you end like the old SPace Wolves. Space Marines+++.

Thats not how you do proper sub-factions. A good sub-facion is a more specialized force with a more restricted playstile and unit rosters but that is better in their speciality and with some special units focused in their "ethos".

People always accepted that for example, a good Khorne sub-faction/army should lack any shooting capability and be a beast in meele. In old fantasy and AoS it works that way. And different factions have much more character.

But obviously, this comes down to personal preference and how one sees the relation faction-subfaction.

To be perfectly honest, they have everything apart from what was introduced in 6th ed onwards. Hell, Codex SM stole things FROM them (poor Blood Angels :( ).

And I actually know a very dedicated World Eaters player who was not impressed at the 'you're all frothing berserkers who cannot use a gun' approach. Khorne is a god of war. Slaughter from afar is preferable to no slaughter and the Khornate daemon engines in Epic were very shooty in their nature. I do feel they should have a definite assault feel to them - berserkers are good as a core choice but excluding firepower isn't really viable. Well, possibly in 8th where Assaults and the Counter-Offensive CP on Berserkers are just brutal.

And unless GW are going to seriously trim things away from BA, DA and SW - which they're not and we pretty much know it - I'm not in favour of being another guinea pig for their change of direction approach. Chaos almost always ends up like this and the only time it worked out was 3.5. In late 4th ed it was a disaster, in 6th ed. it was a disaster. Hell, KDK were considered weak amongst the Decurion armies...so it didn't work out too well there either.

I still stick by my 'what we had painted in the studio cabinet' approach as to why our list looks like a 3rd edition relic list.

And I honestly hope that we get options. Because right now we're making a lot of assumptions....and hoping those work out.

Hell, even the FW index is an assumption - if they don't have a statement allowing ALL Legions to take their units then Death Guard and Thousand Sons are stuffed. Like, nice reward for folk who pretty much have rigidly stuck to an army from the word go - having to split it and create a Pepsi-Death Guard faction to be able to use things - which is going to be frustrating when you have a unified scheme across an army - people are going to assume that they are all X until you explain, whoops, no they're not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Starfarer wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:


That's not how it works son.

If that's the type of tone you're going to continue to take, I'm not bothering to debate your nonsense when it is clear what GW's policies are regarding this stuff. This isn't "my rules" it's the practices GW has had in place for years now, stemming from the Chapter house lawsuit.

Remember, you took the snide tone first. You're the one that quite happily stuck his head in the sand. And I love how you are assuming still.

Show us the Chosen kit. Show us the special weapon Havoc kit.

You cannot. So you cannot assume that GW have the approach of 'if we don't make a kit for it the model will have no rules'.

Remember, this is nu-GW, not the crapfest we had during the Kirby-era. And they've already shown that they are quite different.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:


Remember, you took the snide tone first. You're the one that quite happily stuck his head in the sand. And I love how you are assuming still.

Show us the Chosen kit. Show us the special weapon Havoc kit.

You cannot. So you cannot assume that GW have the approach of 'if we don't make a kit for it the model will have no rules'.

Remember, this is nu-GW, not the crapfest we had during the Kirby-era. And they've already shown that they are quite different.

Actually, I didn't. I was conversing​ with someone else and you jumped in with a picture of a kit thats been discontinued for 10 years as some sort of proof of some argument that wasnt even happening. And then you have continued with with obnoxious posts that continue to miss the point I am making.

We have a chosen kit in Dark Vengeance for what its worth, but the fact that GW has failed to update the kit since well prior to the Chapterhouse lawsuit, it is a weird scenario where they also have a policy of not invalidating units in current codexes, but also havent produced anything new outside of starter set models, similar to the chaos cultists.

As for Havocs, nice fething goalpost moving by trying to state special weapon havocs, which have never been a unique unit choice for standard CSMs. There is a fething Havoc kit, despite being currently out of stock on the website.

None of that, however, disputes my original point that they aren't going to create rules for units in new factions, of which Death Guard are in this edition, if they do not produce models for those units. I will be as happy as anyone if we get rules back Havocs, Chosen and whatever else we lost, but I'm not counting on it. And thata been my point the whole time, despite whatever irrelevant tangents you've dragged this into.

for what it's worth I've heard from my local GW employee that he's been told death Guard are getting "vehicles" (plural) so hopefully that'll help cover some of the bases

BrianDavion wrote:
for what it's worth I've heard from my local GW employee that he's been told death Guard are getting "vehicles" (plural) so hopefully that'll help cover some of the bases

That would be cool, and the teaser photos that appear to show heavily mutated rhinos could be really amazing models.

 Starfarer wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
for what it's worth I've heard from my local GW employee that he's been told death Guard are getting "vehicles" (plural) so hopefully that'll help cover some of the bases

That would be cool, and the teaser photos that appear to show heavily mutated rhinos could be really amazing models.

well right now, given what we've seen from GW teasers we know Primaris Marines are getting 2 new tanks. Dark Imperium also suggests we're getting 2 new types of infantry (Agressor and Reiver squads IIRC). if we assume some stand alone Primaris HQ minis as well, and a death guard release scheudle that is about on par, death guard could be looking at a pretty beefy release.

Wait, what? Flavour of the month loyalists are getting reaver units before black legion? I mean they're basically chosen but still.

The Reiver is some kind of stealt-armoured Primaris with skull-helmets specialized in mele assasination.

I don't think thats anything to do with "Reavers"

So, as someone who's considering a CSM army (possibly with a Nurgle theme) is there any good news? I'm seeing LOTS of doom and gloom here

 Galas wrote:
The Reiver is some kind of stealt-armoured Primaris with skull-helmets specialized in mele assasination.

I don't think thats anything to do with "Reavers"

The reavers from forgeworld even have an "assassin's eye" special rule ^_-. Their specialization was killing leaders and otherwise weak foes like you would see a pack of wolves or lions or whatever.
Sound familiar? I mean the unit probably has nothing to do with the heresy legion but you have to admit, that's suspiciously similar. Even down to the name. And also melee based of course.
Although I hope they're not actually called reivers...That's a pretty ridiculous name.

From how they (reavers) read, they are pretty much to the sons of horus what berzerkers are to world eaters., plague marines to DG and so on.
Becoming the black legion may have shifted much of that to possessed, but if I were to think non possessed, I'd think whatever the 4k equivalent of justaerin and these guys would be for legion/faction specific units, which I think GW is going for in general.

 War Kitten wrote:
So, as someone who's considering a CSM army (possibly with a Nurgle theme) is there any good news? I'm seeing LOTS of doom and gloom here

Lots of good news:
*Beautiful models on the way
*Codex on the way
*Mortarion on the way

It's the internet, don't let their negativity become yours.

I've never played Chaos Marines of any flavor (started in 3rd and my last game was 5th). I have 2 word bearer tac squads, 2 termie squads, a dread all from the board games they've been releasing over the past 2 years.

Would it be possible to use those models plus what comes in the starter to play DG or at least a semi-decent chaos marine force from what folks have seen of the new indexes?

Yes... and no. GW's looking like they're gonna be moving towards making death guard, 1ksons world eaters and emperor's children sort of their own armies. but you'll certainly be able to run a force together as heretic astartes/chaos.
just that your death guard HQs won't 100% synergize with the other chaos stuff 100%

but you'll be able to run them together in a legal list no problem

BrianDavion wrote:
Yes... and no. GW's looking like they're gonna be moving towards making death guard, 1ksons world eaters and emperor's children sort of their own armies. but you'll certainly be able to run a force together as heretic astartes/chaos.
just that your death guard HQs won't 100% synergize with the other chaos stuff 100%

but you'll be able to run them together in a legal list no problem

This and in the future you will miss out on additional synergy bonuses from their codices once they are released, IE, can't get the Death Guard bonus X from the Codex.

But we don't know what they are yet, and if they will be worth taking.

At least the models are gorgeous

I wonder if this will amount to anything, both of the DG models in front of these vehicles are in the starter. The one with the plasma in the back, other one with maw face in front. Also remember the bloat drone thing was shown in the cartoon teaser way before any art or other images of it surfaced.

So what do we think these vehicles are?

They seem to have a ram/shield in the front, but I can't see any guns

 Kharne the Befriender wrote:
So what do we think these vehicles are?

They seem to have a ram/shield in the front, but I can't see any guns

One of them looks like what you'd imagine a vindicator looks like if it was Nurglified.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Kharne the Befriender wrote:
So what do we think these vehicles are?

They seem to have a ram/shield in the front, but I can't see any guns

One of them looks like what you'd imagine a vindicator looks like if it was Nurglified.

I see what you mean but I still don't see a barrel

Perhaps their armored transports

 Kharne the Befriender wrote:
So what do we think these vehicles are?

They seem to have a ram/shield in the front, but I can't see any guns

I see one with a turret on top. that said I could definatly see them being some sort of nurgleified vindicator analogue, being to a vindicatgor what the plaguereaper is to a baneblade

 Kharne the Befriender wrote:
So what do we think these vehicles are?

They seem to have a ram/shield in the front, but I can't see any guns

Maybe a transport, support vehicle...hard to tell. I would like to see more stuff about the destroyer hive though. Like if it had destroyer hive husks on top that just spewed demon flies attacking any units within a certain range.

 Thargrim wrote:

 Kharne the Befriender wrote:
So what do we think these vehicles are?

They seem to have a ram/shield in the front, but I can't see any guns

Maybe a transport, support vehicle...hard to tell. I would like to see more stuff about the destroyer hive though. Like if it had destroyer hive husks on top that just spewed demon flies attacking any units within a certain range.

Now THAT, would be amazing

 Kharne the Befriender wrote:

 Thargrim wrote:

 Kharne the Befriender wrote:
So what do we think these vehicles are?

They seem to have a ram/shield in the front, but I can't see any guns

Maybe a transport, support vehicle...hard to tell. I would like to see more stuff about the destroyer hive though. Like if it had destroyer hive husks on top that just spewed demon flies attacking any units within a certain range.

Now THAT, would be amazing

one appers to have a turret on top, the other does not, my gut feeling is it's gonna be a duel kit.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Kharne the Befriender wrote:

 Thargrim wrote:

 Kharne the Befriender wrote:
So what do we think these vehicles are?

They seem to have a ram/shield in the front, but I can't see any guns

Maybe a transport, support vehicle...hard to tell. I would like to see more stuff about the destroyer hive though. Like if it had destroyer hive husks on top that just spewed demon flies attacking any units within a certain range.

Now THAT, would be amazing

one appers to have a turret on top, the other does not, my gut feeling is it's gonna be a duel kit.

I'm inclined to agree after taking a closer look (went from phone to computer), that gun also looks like it's flanked by chimneys

Bring on the Nurgle tanks!

So i took out my entire CSM collection today for inventory and it just so happens that I painted up my Havocs and Terminators in pre-heresy Death Guard colors [because I have an infatuation with White Primer], and all the other units the dull green and browns of Plague marines.

Then it occured to me: The pre-heresy painted ones arent official (Plague) Death Guard anymore! They're <Pre-heresy DG> that didn't get sick.

My army still kinda makes sense with the keyword limitations, and I have a little fluff justification for using them. The moral is, we can all 'Forge the Narrative' in little ways to fill gaps the Index has left.

Wont lie i am a little bummed about the fact that plague marines are weaker than they were but ill still be fielding them in hordes. im keen on trying some pox walkers and typhus

Primaris are going to get a lot of new miniatures. Surely with cool rules or, minimum, hard to kill because the 2w and some of them with +1T.


Doont even expect same treatment for chaos hahaha. Just look what we actually have: poxwallers are bad as hell for how much they cost (unless they cost 4 pts no one will use them). The new drones are bad, since the flammers they use are a bit meh. And the plague marines are worst and more expensive than intercessor.

As several mates said, PM are weaker now. But still they cost a lot (more than a Primaris.... Funny). By the moment is the most suboptimal "cult Marine".

When you are a chaos player you end learning to never expect something cool from GW.

And when they did with traitor legions, giving legion rules, equip, new magic, lists.... all were a lie that they erased 6 months later. Just for fun. Giving hopes just to break them (if someone saw Bleach, GW was like Gin when told to Rukia that he could save her from execution)

 War Kitten wrote:
So, as someone who's considering a CSM army (possibly with a Nurgle theme) is there any good news? I'm seeing LOTS of doom and gloom here

Until we get more definitive answers on whether we are getting a Codex (i.e. not a campaign release) and what is in it...we've got a strange list with strange restrictions.

The positive at the moment is that faction keywords are pretty much meaningless unless you're AdMech - annoying, potentially risky as you probably shouldn't get used to using X if we're not going to get X and in some cases dumb.

A lot of the gripe is the fact that having to take Pepsi Death Guard as a seperate faction really rubs on some of us - when my whole army is pretty much in a unified sort of scheme it's really fething annoying having to then go - but actually they're not, haHAA!

Had a good old sit down with my stuff - found my army overall in points from 7th ed has shrunk down from about 7.5k to 6.3k - units have gotten cheaper and the absence of relics means characters are generally cheaper across the board as well. Got a busy few weeks ahead of me - for a 1500 point tournament I've got to base things, finish my Daemon Prince off and then get the Blightbringer and Poxwalkers from Dark Imperium done for the Saturday after.

List is pretty much looking as follows...

Typhus
Fabius Bile
Winged Daemon Prince (not Death Guard) - Hellforged Sword

10 Poxwalkers
10 Poxwalkers
7 Plague Marines with Powerfist Champion and 2 Meltaguns

Rhino

7 Terminators - 2 with paired Lightning Claws, 1 Single Lightning Claw, 1 Chainfist, 1 Powerfist, 1 Power Maul, 1 Power Axe, 2 Combi-Flamers, 1 Heavy Flamer, 2 Combi-bolters, Icon of Despair
Noxious Blightbringer

5 Raptors - Power Sword champion, Plasma gun
2 Chaos Spawn

Plan is very simple.

Death Guard blob advances together - during those first few turns Fabby Bill buffs up the Poxwalkers and Plague Marines

Thinking...turn 2/3...Raptors and Terminators deep strike in. Let Typhus and his blobs charge, set up following turn's charge from the teleporting murderblobs. Winged Prince is non Death Guard so his buffs can be applied to the Raptors and Terminators - figure he's also fast enough to get into position - so I'll probably deep strike them around him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm of the personal opinion that Fabius Bile is an absolute steal against most armies, especially if you bubblewrap him properly.

The only risk are sniper units and even then, D3 wounds a turn.

The fact his buffing ability is now one unit per turn and it goes off Heretic Astartes and Infantry keywords gives him a much bigger range of things he can buff - it now includes things like Terminators and Possessed.

Half tempted to get a few odd units just to make a giant Fabby Bill Buff Bubble army.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Fabius Bile is an absolute steal against most armies

Saw this and thought, "wow, GW does have a way of bringing back the past." How many years has it been since Fabius Bile was useful? I know I used him in 5th edition, but it's been so long...

Good thoughts. He could actually be useful and his buffs come cheap. It's almost like he increases the usefulness of a squad by a power level each turn he does it.

What is the deal with the Chirurgeon? It says he heals d3 wounds. Is that just for him, or can the wounds be applied to another model?

 techsoldaten wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Fabius Bile is an absolute steal against most armies

Saw this and thought, "wow, GW does have a way of bringing back the past." How many years has it been since Fabius Bile was useful? I know I used him in 5th edition, but it's been so long...

Good thoughts. He could actually be useful and his buffs come cheap. It's almost like he increases the usefulness of a squad by a power level each turn he does it.

What is the deal with the Chirurgeon? It says he heals d3 wounds. Is that just for him, or can the wounds be applied to another model?

I'd say it's only for him, otherwise he'd be really really good

Since they didn't include the Vindi in the list of units DG is allowed to take aside from fluff saying it was basically the only vehicle we took, I really hope these new tanks will be a thing.
Just like Termis. And maybe we are lucky and the actual PM set includes a variant that can use 4special weapons to replace the havocs/chosen. All of these will have great names of course, like obnoxious blightspreaders (termis), corroded vomitbarragers (vindi) and diseased bloatwardens (chosen).

Btw we have to close this thread as we reached page 7. Nurgle is pleased, move on.

Dovis wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Fabius Bile is an absolute steal against most armies

Saw this and thought, "wow, GW does have a way of bringing back the past." How many years has it been since Fabius Bile was useful? I know I used him in 5th edition, but it's been so long...

Good thoughts. He could actually be useful and his buffs come cheap. It's almost like he increases the usefulness of a squad by a power level each turn he does it.

What is the deal with the Chirurgeon? It says he heals d3 wounds. Is that just for him, or can the wounds be applied to another model?

I'd say it's only for him, otherwise he'd be really really good

Only for him - his compensation for lacking an Invulnerable save and and not being able to catch a ride.

However, he does have 6 attacks as S5 with the Rod. He gets the charge and he can bop an enemy character damn quick.

Yeah I'm going to go ahead and agree with franarok, don't expect the same number of releases for DG as primaris. Expect maybe half (and we will be lucky to get that).

If the codex doesn't have some big changes our army is garbage tbh. At this point DG releases exist mostly to show how much better the primaris releases are by comparison.

SilverAlien wrote:
Yeah I'm going to go ahead and agree with franarok, don't expect the same number of releases for DG as primaris. Expect maybe half (and we will be lucky to get that).

If the codex doesn't have some big changes our army is garbage tbh. At this point DG releases exist mostly to show how much better the primaris releases are by comparison.

Yep. A whole lot of red flags were raised with what they chopped out of our list.

Beginning to wonder if we should have secretly plotted to get a Death Guard player onto the rules or Codex design team years ago to have avoided the great cull that we got

And actually - this mirrors AoS.

Notice that Khorne Bloodbound have pretty much gotten nothing new release wise where Stormcasts have gotten half a dozen unit types and more?

SilverAlien wrote:
Yeah I'm going to go ahead and agree with franarok, don't expect the same number of releases for DG as primaris. Expect maybe half (and we will be lucky to get that).

If the codex doesn't have some big changes our army is garbage tbh. At this point DG releases exist mostly to show how much better the primaris releases are by comparison.

This....totally agree.

I get the feeling that since we can be pretty sure of 2-3 different things.

That multi leg thing that was teased and we see in the art. The terminators we have already seen, and the vehicle(probably a duel kit) that we see in the art as well. Hopefully it will cover all of the bases.

I know its kinda annoying not having these things on our list. I converted up Nurgle Oblits from the FW kits, and have Nurgle Rhino doors. However I will remain causiously optimistic until we get our codex. I am betting that Primaris and Deathguard are going to be the first two out the gate hopefully in early july.

Either way I understand people are upset about what we have to work with, I would just caution optimism. GW has been doing pretty good work overall and once the rules drop and we see everything in context we might have a better view.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Notice that Khorne Bloodbound have pretty much gotten nothing new release wise where Stormcasts have gotten half a dozen unit types and more?

Nothing except a new book with tons of new rules...

Khorne Bloodbound also had a whole lot of models ported over from Warhammer Fantasy, and started with a bunch more kits that were relatively new for their previous Warriors of Chaos book from just a year and a half (ish) prior or the End Times. Stormcast were an entirely new faction everything they have only existing and being released during Age of Sigmar. Yes, they have not got as much support since release, but they had plenty early on and got some carry-overs from an older army, not to mention that they are now included in the Blades of Khorne book (basically Khorne Daemonkin).

Not counting the Starter Set or the little boxes of a few models, here's how the Stormcast and Bloodbound compare on kits and Warscrolls:

Stormcast Eternals
- total unique kits:
- Units - 9
- Heroes - 12
across 29 Warscrolls

Khorne Bloodbound on its own
- total unique kits:
- Units - 4
- Heroes - 10
across 16 Warscrolls

Blades of Khorne
- total unique kits:
- Units - 7.5
- Heroes - 16.5
across 27 Warscrolls

Withe their inclusion into the book with Daemons, the Bloodbound were expanded into a larger army. The same thing was done with Tzeentch recently for AoS, and both also include options for some Monster of Chaos and Slaves to Darkness (the rest of the Warriors of Chaos models from Warhammer Fantasy) options to be included in those armies without losing army-wide rules.

I hope the new Death Guard get plenty of support myself, as I want to start a Death Guard army as much as a Primaris Marine army, at least a Nurgle Marine army if nothing else! With any luck, Death Guard and other Nurgle mortal units will get some releases and support in the coming months.

With any luck, in July

How much hope do people really put into GW doing the Death Guard justice?

If we go by what is already in front of us...Bloat Drone is meh...Plague Marines are meh....Pox Walkers cost are silly compared to equivalents....stupidly removed units.... etc. etc.

Not saying it cant be fixed, but from the start the outlook more bleak than hopeful.

I just reminds of PC games...developers hype it up, release it not up to the hype, fanboys defend it with statements about "It will be patched and THEN be great", and so on. Sometimes it works out...some times it does not.

Proof is in the pudding. People can speculate on what "MIGHT" happen, but you can evaluate what is here now...and whats here now is unimpressive.

I've been converting and painting a Bringers of Decay army, it seems like now I'll only be able to take benefits from either Black Legion or Death Guard. Haven't marks gone for marines? or have I missed something.

Previously I would run Black Legion rules with no specific formation, allowing me to take terminators and chosen as troops and the mark of nurgle.

It seems Death Guard have their own formation inherent in the Legion rules for 8th.
I know this is pure speculation, wondering if there's any other Black Legion sub factions people run also thinking the same thing?

I was fully expecting 2 wound possessed, basically making them the traitor wulfen. Finally a reason to pick up some gal vorbak models. The tormented formation just wasn't cutting it with all the drawbacks possessed had. Now? I like these possessed even less than the default 6th randumb version. Hounds of abbaddon are kinda meh too in that only the zerkers are really worth it. The lord sucks with just the default weapons and all the non zerkers are just normal marines painted red.
I won't be picking up the game until we get a proper chaos codex and I fear that means waiting until we get undivided books/models so probabaly no sooner then a a couple of years.

I can imagine rippy as a seething tower of bitterness, driven to melancholy by the recent death guard events. He tries to convince himself everything is ok by telling everyone else everything is ok. Maybe he one day will believe it himself.

In the meantime! I say fudge death guard! Lets make our own nurgle legion with normal "keyword marked" chaos space marines of nurgle. It will be called... guards of death. Sure they wont have +1 toughness or disghustingly recilient, but they will be cheap and not suck. Remember you will only be fudged if you play death guard, everything else is fine!

Well, I can have a PM squad with 3 plasma guns - what do I need chosen and havocs for?
Also Typhus spreading the best gifts of Nurgle we ever had. He looks like an auto-include to me.
Spawns having DS-2 could finally make them kill something and not just be a transport for the lord.