ClockworkZion wrote: Went back to yesterday's Faction Focus Death Guard Article to start with since it seemed like they'd taken off for a tea break. So we'll pick up from there before today's FW one:
Spoiler:
Forge World Datasheet Teaser Q: Hey Warhammer 40,000. Can you just verify that str is not capped at 10, meaning this bad boy will be hitting at str 16.
A: Have a looks at this article where it says "With the stats going above 10, the system is now an increasing scale,".... https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/25/warhammer-40000-unit-profiles/
Q: Any news from Forge world about Dark Mechanicum being bought into 40k as this mysterious new faction? Come on GW hype team I need to know.
A: No news on these guys right now, but if any surfaces,we will let you know on the Forge World page.
Q: Hot damn, nice big dredd... My question is this for you gw, when the new Dex's come out will they have both the forge world beasties and gw beasties in them for my nids? Also a massive thanks for being an awesome company!
A: The standard codex books are unlikely to cover Forge World models as they are not part of the Citadel range.
Q: So any hints you can give regarding whether warhound, reaver and warlord titans will be in the new indexes? I've got a titan maniple I'd rather not leave sitting on the shelf.
A: No word yet; as soon as we know, we will divulge all here!
Q: Will there be a faction focus on Eldar Corsairs? I know what most of my armies are going to be like in 8th now, but Corsairs are my favourite.
A: Not specifically on Corsairs - that would be super-specific. But they will be getting covered with rules in the new edition.
Q: Any chance the FW books or datasheets will be available digitally?
A: We are looking to make that happen, but no word right now
Q: QUESTION! Since we were told that characteristics such as Strength, Wounds etc, don't cap out at 10 anymore... does that mean that a Leviathan gets S16 on his siege Claws??????
A: Sounds like it! 8 x 2 is 16 after all!
Q: So are the new IA index books going to be sold through Forge World or are they going to be a standard GW product? Not a huge deal but it does take some consideration for those of us outside the UK.
A: Have a read of the article below; the books from Forge World will be being sold by Forge World. https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/23/forge-world-and-the-new-warhammer-40000/
ClockworkZion wrote: Went back to yesterday's Faction Focus Death Guard Article to start with since it seemed like they'd taken off for a tea break. So we'll pick up from there before today's FW one:
Spoiler:
Forge World Datasheet Teaser Q: Hey Warhammer 40,000. Can you just verify that str is not capped at 10, meaning this bad boy will be hitting at str 16.
A: Have a looks at this article where it says "With the stats going above 10, the system is now an increasing scale,".... https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/25/warhammer-40000-unit-profiles/
Q: Any news from Forge world about Dark Mechanicum being bought into 40k as this mysterious new faction? Come on GW hype team I need to know.
A: No news on these guys right now, but if any surfaces,we will let you know on the Forge World page.
Q: Hot damn, nice big dredd... My question is this for you gw, when the new Dex's come out will they have both the forge world beasties and gw beasties in them for my nids? Also a massive thanks for being an awesome company!
A: The standard codex books are unlikely to cover Forge World models as they are not part of the Citadel range.
Q: So any hints you can give regarding whether warhound, reaver and warlord titans will be in the new indexes? I've got a titan maniple I'd rather not leave sitting on the shelf.
A: No word yet; as soon as we know, we will divulge all here!
Q: Will there be a faction focus on Eldar Corsairs? I know what most of my armies are going to be like in 8th now, but Corsairs are my favourite.
A: Not specifically on Corsairs - that would be super-specific. But they will be getting covered with rules in the new edition.
Q: Any chance the FW books or datasheets will be available digitally?
A: We are looking to make that happen, but no word right now
Q: QUESTION! Since we were told that characteristics such as Strength, Wounds etc, don't cap out at 10 anymore... does that mean that a Leviathan gets S16 on his siege Claws??????
A: Sounds like it! 8 x 2 is 16 after all!
Q: So are the new IA index books going to be sold through Forge World or are they going to be a standard GW product? Not a huge deal but it does take some consideration for those of us outside the UK.
A: Have a read of the article below; the books from Forge World will be being sold by Forge World. https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/23/forge-world-and-the-new-warhammer-40000/
Well, since they have to get across the board and into assault whilst taking both regular shooting and overwatch, they have to be good once they get there.
Forge World Datasheet Teaser PART DUEX Q: Is there any chance of a AOS type warscrolls being available for free? Having recently bought IA:V2 that isn't a cheap book to replace for only 3 models that I own. It really hurts for those of us across the pond.
A: Hey Nathan - as you say, we are looking into whether we can make digital versions of this.More news when we get it.
Speaking as a former 11H (anti-tank gunner U.S. Army)
For those complaining about Vehicle Facing from a real world perspective front facing armor, side armor, etc. Just know, how you face a vehicle is completely irrelevant. Any anti-tank round that hits (TOW, AT4, Hellfire, SABOT) kills the crew and renders the vehicle destroyed. If you hit it, it goes away.
So, in a post dismissing an idea of tanks having weak points, you mentioned weapons targeting their weak points.
Modern tanks are irrelevant when it comes to 40k, the Imperium is described as backwards and the ruleset was based on a WW II ruleset. SM tanks are WWII tanks with lasers.
Though even if you assume sm tanks are more like Abramses, Leopards etc, facing is very important for movement, firing and vulnerablity of modern tanks.
And even if it wasn't, facing is important for tabletop wargames because of the depth it adds to setup and movement phase. Everyhing, not only vehicles should have it in one form or another and GW should have added here, not remove. A wargame without that aspect is a tactical equivalent of a computer rts from the 90s but lacking the strategic component - in short, a stupid game of draging blobs to click on blobs. Have fun.
But man, Forgeworld will really come into its own in 8th edition. Making up convoluted bespoke rules for every model where a USR would do is their specialty.
Speaking as a former 11H (anti-tank gunner U.S. Army)
For those complaining about Vehicle Facing from a real world perspective front facing armor, side armor, etc. Just know, how you face a vehicle is completely irrelevant. Any anti-tank round that hits (TOW, AT4, Hellfire, SABOT) kills the crew and renders the vehicle destroyed. If you hit it, it goes away.
That’s top, bottom, left side, etc., your facing (more armor up front) MEANS NOTHING.
@DCannon4Life:
If you can answer sir, how are wounds allocated from different weapons (maximum damage, or minimum damage) i.e.
LasCannon and Lasgun hit and wound a 2 man squad Primaris Team (fails save), does damage go in favor of shooter:
• Lascannon does 3 damage, (killing 1 marine) then lasgun does 1 damage (wounding the other) = 1 dead & 1 wounded Marine
Or does it go in Favor of the defender:
• Lasgun does 1 damage, (Primaris is wounded) then Lascannon does 3 damage( finishes off wounded Primaris) = 1 dead Marine
I was 11m (I drove an APC around) This discussion needs it's own thread! (meant in a good way)
Have we seen anything confirming one way or the other for how vehicles will fire their weapons if they have multiple weapons?
More like being a squad so each weapon can aim at a different target? Will weapons need to use TLOS (or approximate like now) to aim left/right/up down?
As for the complaints about vehicles moving sideways I have to say...you do realize that the game board at any given time is simply a snap-shot in time? Maybe we should make it so that you can only overwatch with models that are facing the in-coming chargers. Or whatever you are aiming at. (Not really proposing this.)
I can see vehicles getting to aim their weapons at whatever is within LoS to the hull...any part of the hull. Just like members of a squad move around within their own little bubbles of space, standing up/kneeling, etc...vehicles could be imagined to be doing the same thing. Heck they straight up wrote that into SHW/GC with stomp right now. It is stomping around but then winds up in the same place/facing as where it started. If you can imagine your little guys swinging weapons and moving around, you can imagine a tank taking the few seconds here and there to grind their treads to bring different weapons to focus on different targets while aiming the turret at something else. (Especially with a Panther/Abrahms, watch how they can fight sometime...it's impressive.)
Yeah, but what about the rest of my collection? I only have about a company's worth, what about the other 900 marines I haven't yet got to build and will never get the chance to?
They will serve as an important lesson for your future consumer behaviour.
I know I seen a picture around of a promo from an upcoming global 40k campaign somewhere in news and rumors but it got lost in the shuffle. Does anyone have it? It even had the campaign's name on it.
If there is no longer firing arcs it adds freedom to how to model your vehicles, as placing the guns in different places can no longer be considered modelling for advantage (or for disadvantage for that matter.)
Gamgee wrote: I know I seen a picture around of a promo from an upcoming global 40k campaign somewhere in news and rumors but it got lost in the shuffle. Does anyone have it? It even had the campaign's name on it.
I don't recall seeing that.
Oh, speaking of upcoming 40k stuff my FLGS is running an official intro to 8th on June 3rd. Apparently GW is endorsing the edition change with everyone.
Gamgee wrote: I know I seen a picture around of a promo from an upcoming global 40k campaign somewhere in news and rumors but it got lost in the shuffle. Does anyone have it? It even had the campaign's name on it.
I don't recall seeing that.
Oh, speaking of upcoming 40k stuff my FLGS is running an official intro to 8th on June 3rd. Apparently GW is endorsing the edition change with everyone.
It was something along the lines of 'the return or revenge of Konrad or something along those lines. It was even shown to take place in ultramar to try and recover some planets or something.
Gamgee wrote: I know I seen a picture around of a promo from an upcoming global 40k campaign somewhere in news and rumors but it got lost in the shuffle. Does anyone have it? It even had the campaign's name on it.
I don't recall seeing that.
Oh, speaking of upcoming 40k stuff my FLGS is running an official intro to 8th on June 3rd. Apparently GW is endorsing the edition change with everyone.
It was something along the lines of 'the return or revenge of Konrad or something along those lines. It was even shown to take place in ultramar to try and recover some planets or something.
It was me, Dio! I don't think is a global campaing. More like a mini campaing to run in every store as advertisement for the new edition.
Galas wrote: A "campaing" for launch: Fate of Konor
Sorry for the size of the pic. It is a pack for stores to go with 8th launch:
50 pages for army list A4
5 metal coins of 40k 30 measure rules of Ultramarines
20 posters in A3 size
20 pages of exclusive missions
50 battle booklet (Maybe a resume of the rules?)
A poster of A2 size of "Coming soon” of the new campaing: The Destiny of Konor.
I hope they do a global campaign (I think they will) since AoS got one.
Pretty sure that poster says "JOIN THE GLOBAL CAMPAIGN ", so...
Excellent catch. So it is a grand-campaign. I need to get my warface on. My FLGS is letting Tau play again woohoo. No idea what changed their hearts. Perhaps the phantom thieves are real?
And even if it wasn't, facing is important for tabletop wargames because of the depth it adds to setup and movement phase. Everyhing, not only vehicles should have it in one form or another and GW should have added here, not remove.
Nonsense, every wargame is first of all a game. Different games aim at different markets and different feels and different levels of abstraction. Facing is not at all important to many wargames, tabletop or otherwise. Many wargames each with their own emphasis exist catering to many people. If a game doesn't appeal to you then there will probably be another that does. Tracking the facing of non vehicles etc sounds as stupid to me as not tracking facing of vehicles does to you. You are probably after a simulator rather than a game.
Modern tanks are irrelevant when it comes to 40k, the Imperium is described as backwards and the ruleset was based on a WW II ruleset. SM tanks are WWII tanks with lasers.
Personally I'd say 40k is much more WW1 and interwar than WW2.
I hope the rumors of large preorders resulting in FLGSs getting a bonus for the store. My store owner puts in a ton of effort, so if he gets a little back because we order a ton of stuff, that would make me really happy.
Speaking as a former 11H (anti-tank gunner U.S. Army)
For those complaining about Vehicle Facing from a real world perspective front facing armor, side armor, etc. Just know, how you face a vehicle is completely irrelevant. Any anti-tank round that hits (TOW, AT4, Hellfire, SABOT) kills the crew and renders the vehicle destroyed. If you hit it, it goes away.
So, in a post dismissing an idea of tanks having weak points, you mentioned weapons targeting their weak points.
Modern tanks are irrelevant when it comes to 40k, the Imperium is described as backwards and the ruleset was based on a WW II ruleset. SM tanks are WWII tanks with lasers.
Though even if you assume sm tanks are more like Abramses, Leopards etc, facing is very important for movement, firing and vulnerablity of modern tanks.
And even if it wasn't, facing is important for tabletop wargames because of the depth it adds to setup and movement phase. Everyhing, not only vehicles should have it in one form or another and GW should have added here, not remove. A wargame without that aspect is a tactical equivalent of a computer rts from the 90s but lacking the strategic component - in short, a stupid game of draging blobs to click on blobs. Have fun.
Or, this isn't a skirmish level war game and that level of granularity no longer feels appropriate for the size of the games involved.
He didn't mention a weak point at all. He said it doesn't matter where you hit, the tank is dead.
The strategic component will come in when we see if vehicles still fire weapons with the same technique as before. Aiming down the barrel doesn't need armor facing. Then there is also the tactical movement aspect of acquiring viable targeting on characters, skimmers and other flying units having a vertical limit of speed, planning and counterdeploying against real-time since every army in the game now guarantees most reserves arival.
You are ignoring army based tactics because you are focused on squad based tactics. They are different things and a game can't really do both. (That's how we ended up in the mess we had before)
I hope they do a global campaign (I think they will) since AoS got one.
Pretty sure that poster says "JOIN THE GLOBAL CAMPAIGN ", so...
Excellent catch. So it is a grand-campaign. I need to get my warface on. My FLGS is letting Tau play again woohoo. No idea what changed their hearts. Perhaps the phantom thieves are real?
There's nothing friendly about an LGS that bans an entire army.
I hope they do a global campaign (I think they will) since AoS got one.
Pretty sure that poster says "JOIN THE GLOBAL CAMPAIGN ", so...
Excellent catch. So it is a grand-campaign. I need to get my warface on. My FLGS is letting Tau play again woohoo. No idea what changed their hearts. Perhaps the phantom thieves are real?
There's nothing friendly about an LGS that bans an entire army.
Yeap true, which is why I'm skeptical about it. What if they are just yanking my chain and I show up and lol nope.
Internet is loving to photoshop the new kids on the block in different colors and frankly I think it's actually helping make them look better than they do in the promotional shots:
I don't want to sound like I'm hating on the Ultramarines, I mean I LIKE the color blue, but something about it doesn't seem to work on the Primaris Marines like other colors do.
If I had to guess, I would say vehicles and the like will still measure and draw line of sight from their mountings. I also have a feeling that access points will still be a thing, it will just say on each specific sheet.
lord_blackfang wrote: But man, Forgeworld will really come into its own in 8th edition. Making up convoluted bespoke rules for every model where a USR would do is their specialty.
So so true. Forge world always likes to go one rule too far, like they should have stopped and hit the backspace key after writing up that 4th rule for yet another knight/dreadnought variant.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I wonder if Primaris Space Marines are going to take up more slots in a transport than a Tactical Marine or if a Rhino will still fit 10 of them.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I wonder if Primaris Space Marines are going to take up more slots in a transport than a Tactical Marine or if a Rhino will still fit 10 of them.
I could see them getting a bulky style rule.
I hope not, but I am afraid that's probably going to be the case. Which sucks because that means that they can't fit in Razorbacks.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I wonder if Primaris Space Marines are going to take up more slots in a transport than a Tactical Marine or if a Rhino will still fit 10 of them.
Didn't they already say that they will be getting their own transports?
Leth wrote: I get the feeling they will be regular size,
I hope so. I don't want to have to reformulate all of my transports to work with bulky Marines. I need to decide what I want to do with them in the first place. Two Squads of 5 in a Razorback seems like it will work well enough. They will probably get one of the Lieutenants attached to each squad.
What I am REALLY hoping for is that Crimson Fists will still have the best bolt weapons in the West. If so, I will probably add the Inceptors to my list so they can mow down stuff.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I wonder if Primaris Space Marines are going to take up more slots in a transport than a Tactical Marine or if a Rhino will still fit 10 of them.
Didn't they already say that they will be getting their own transports?
Eventually perhaps. All we know is there will be some Primaris based vehicles.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I wonder if Primaris Space Marines are going to take up more slots in a transport than a Tactical Marine or if a Rhino will still fit 10 of them.
Didn't they already say that they will be getting their own transports?
Eventually perhaps. All we know is there will be some Primaris based vehicles.
Primaris Taurox Prime. Hey, gotta sell those ugly as feth models somehow!
Haven't we seen the primaris marine datasheet? It doesn't mention anything about 'bulky' or an equivalent rule. Seems very unlikely that rules about what counts as how many transport slots are on the transport datasheet.
Perfect Organism wrote: Haven't we seen the primaris marine datasheet? It doesn't mention anything about 'bulky' or an equivalent rule. Seems very unlikely that rules about what counts as how many transport slots are on the transport datasheet.
Rhino could easily just have a rule that says "Can't carry Infantry Models with the Keyword Primaris or models wearing Centurion or Terminator armour".
Any one have primaris in Space Wolf? A razorback would be the perfect vehicle for them. Heavy weapon support vs rhino which doesn't have a good weapon system. I never understood how vehicles didn't have a top armor value? Aren't planes and helicopters supposed to be tank killers.
Jjohnso11 wrote: Any one have primaris in Space Wolf? A razorback would be the perfect vehicle for them. Heavy weapon support vs rhino which doesn't have a good weapon system. I never understood how vehicles didn't have a top armor value? Aren't planes and helicopters supposed to be tank killers.
Any Marine army save for possibly the Grey Knights and Deathwatch can run them in their army.
That said, with how allies work you can put them in there too, they just won't share all the rules.
Perfect Organism wrote: Haven't we seen the primaris marine datasheet? It doesn't mention anything about 'bulky' or an equivalent rule. Seems very unlikely that rules about what counts as how many transport slots are on the transport datasheet.
I really doubt the Rhino is going specifically call out Primaris as not being able to fit. Who knows though.
Perfect Organism wrote: Haven't we seen the primaris marine datasheet? It doesn't mention anything about 'bulky' or an equivalent rule. Seems very unlikely that rules about what counts as how many transport slots are on the transport datasheet.
I really doubt the Rhino is going specifically call out Primaris as not being able to fit. Who knows though.
It was a possibility of how it could work, not a definite thing.
Any one have primaris in Space Wolf? A razorback would be the perfect vehicle for them. Heavy weapon support vs rhino which doesn't have a good weapon system. I never understood how vehicles didn't have a top armor value? Aren't planes and helicopters supposed to be tank killers.
They are still missing a vital part of being a Space Wolf imo. Melee weapons.
Any one have primaris in Space Wolf? A razorback would be the perfect vehicle for them. Heavy weapon support vs rhino which doesn't have a good weapon system. I never understood how vehicles didn't have a top armor value? Aren't planes and helicopters supposed to be tank killers.
They are still missing a vital part of being a Space Wolf imo. Melee weapons.
There will probably be more variations at some point. We are seeing the limited versions that are in the starter box. I would be utterly surprised if Inceptors don't have a CCW variation, especially for the Blood Angels.
And it isn't like Space Wolves totally eschew ranged weaponry. Their Tactical Squads can take two Special Weapons.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I wonder if Primaris Space Marines are going to take up more slots in a transport than a Tactical Marine or if a Rhino will still fit 10 of them.
I could see them getting a bulky style rule.
I hope not, but I am afraid that's probably going to be the case. Which sucks because that means that they can't fit in Razorbacks.
yeah I'm definatly thinking they're made for Razorbacks. put em in a Las Razorback, and you've got your anti vehicle.
There will probably be more variations at some point. We are seeing the limited versions that are in the starter box. I would be utterly surprised if Inceptors don't have a CCW variation, especially for the Blood Angels.
And it isn't like Space Wolves totally eschew ranged weaponry. Their Tactical Squads can take two Special Weapons.
Oh I agree. I just want giant Chainswords to go with the giant Bolters.
OP is now up to date with what I think is everything (haven't included a couple of the rumors in the last few pages as I didn't think it was worthwhile, let me know if someone wants something added though as I am happy to be wrong!)
casvalremdeikun wrote: I wonder if Primaris Space Marines are going to take up more slots in a transport than a Tactical Marine or if a Rhino will still fit 10 of them.
I could see them getting a bulky style rule.
I hope not, but I am afraid that's probably going to be the case. Which sucks because that means that they can't fit in Razorbacks.
yeah I'm definatly thinking they're made for Razorbacks. put em in a Las Razorback, and you've got your anti vehicle.
I know, right? I might even just stick them in a basic Heavy Bolter Razorback with a Lieutenant inside for good measure. My Rhino Primaris might get a squad as well, but I will wait for the multi-part kit to come out for that one.
GodDamUser wrote: The most disappointing thing so far with this launch is that FW isn't releasing all the rules at the start...
I just hope they do individual datasheets for DL
I want to use my Barbed Hierodule
Agreed. I want to use my barbred Hierodule, My Scythed Hierodule and my Harradin!
And they better be balanced compared to the Knight Titan, and that insane Leviathan thing.
I have tons of FW models of various factions (about 8 superheavies, and many other models) and honestly, the big problem is the balance is ALL OVER the place.
I don't want units that suck, but I don't want units that are OP either - where I have to apologise for playing my cool looking models.
The leviathan dread does NOT bode well for this - while we have only see a few other big power units (the big ork thing, the swarmlord, the KT) this dread is hitting way above its power level.
Hopefully points wise, it is a LOT more than the swarmlord, and almost as much as the KT.
Maybe to make the Primaris marines fit in a Rhino, you have to have the top doors open so they can fit. Gotta be a downside... say maybe, a toughness reduction due to having the windows down?
The leviathan dread does NOT bode well for this - while we have only see a few other big power units (the big ork thing, the swarmlord, the KT) this dread is hitting way above its power level.
Hopefully points wise, it is a LOT more than the swarmlord, and almost as much as the KT.
FW - you have one job, don't mess it up....
Considering it is the same as two 5 man Rubric squads and should easily kill them. I'd say it was severely undercosted.
The leviathan dread does NOT bode well for this - while we have only see a few other big power units (the big ork thing, the swarmlord, the KT) this dread is hitting way above its power level.
Hopefully points wise, it is a LOT more than the swarmlord, and almost as much as the KT.
FW - you have one job, don't mess it up....
Considering it is the same as two 5 man Rubric squads and should easily kill them. I'd say it was severely undercosted.
On paper...eh maybe? Could just be the rubrics being too expensive. In practice? Who knows? We won't have a real idea of what's powerful and what's not for a solid month after release.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
katfude wrote: Maybe to make the Primaris marines fit in a Rhino, you have to have the top doors open so they can fit. Gotta be a downside... say maybe, a toughness reduction due to having the windows down?
On paper...eh maybe? Could just be the rubrics being too expensive. In practice? Who knows? We won't have a real idea of what's powerful and what's not for a solid month after release.
That is a valid point. That and GW have at least said they will continue to update costs to make everything work.
So the extra attack will prolly only be vs space marines to replace hatred?
And the attacking twice i'm not sure why folks are saying zerkers are gonna be auto win
The leviathan dread does NOT bode well for this - while we have only see a few other big power units (the big ork thing, the swarmlord, the KT) this dread is hitting way above its power level.
Hopefully points wise, it is a LOT more than the swarmlord, and almost as much as the KT.
FW - you have one job, don't mess it up....
Considering it is the same as two 5 man Rubric squads and should easily kill them. I'd say it was severely undercosted.
Well seeing as the Leviathan Dreadnought wasn't meant to be easily killed by infantry weapons I'd say it needs to easily kill them.
So the extra attack will prolly only be vs space marines to replace hatred?
And the attacking twice i'm not sure why folks are saying zerkers are gonna be auto win
new (at the absence of any other info)
1 attack +1 chainsword - 2
1 attack + 1 chainsword - 2 (fights again) - 4
---------------------
I don't have any insider info but I get the feeling zerkers will have more than 1 attack base, if they had 2 even and nothing to say it only works against marines so far, you have 2 pistol shots, 2 attacks, 1 chainsword, 2 more attacks 1 chainsword, if they have the same rule as the khorne daemons then they get 1 more attack & +1 strength perhaps per combat. All before your opponents strikes if you charge.
Possibly 10 attacks per marine (not all with a special weapons admittdely) in 1 phase is evil.
Can't get the quoting to work properly on the above sorry!
So the extra attack will prolly only be vs space marines to replace hatred?
And the attacking twice i'm not sure why folks are saying zerkers are gonna be auto win
new (at the absence of any other info)
1 attack +1 chainsword - 2
1 attack + 1 chainsword - 2 (fights again) - 4
Ya that is how it would play out in 7th edition 40k, but this is 8th and zerkers will most likely have 2 attacks base (if not more). We can't think of what we are so used to, with all marines being essentially 1 attack base and only getting that extra attack with bp+ccw (which apparently doesn't exist anymore) and dual specialist weapons (which probably doesn't exist anymore). The fluff of the zerkers will be built into the profile to give them the extra attack plus any special rules they get. It is getting amp'd up my friend.
You only shoot the pistol in the shooting phase, so its still one pistol shot.
Six attacks wouldnt be to crazy much, especially for a unit oriented on close combat.
We also dont know the exact wording of the rule. Is it attack again at the end of the phase? Do you get to do both at once when you charge, or does the first one get the charge bonus and then you and your opponent do activations?
So the extra attack will prolly only be vs space marines to replace hatred?
And the attacking twice i'm not sure why folks are saying zerkers are gonna be auto win
new (at the absence of any other info)
1 attack +1 chainsword - 2
1 attack + 1 chainsword - 2 (fights again) - 4
Ya that is how it would play out in 7th edition 40k, but this is 8th and zerkers will most likely have 2 attacks base (if not more). We can't think of what we are so used to, with all marines being essentially 1 attack base and only getting that extra attack with bp+ccw (which apparently doesn't exist anymore) and dual specialist weapons (which probably doesn't exist anymore). The fluff of the zerkers will be built into the profile to give them the extra attack plus any special rules they get. It is getting amp'd up my friend.
Just based on how Sigmar works I wouldn't be surprised to see desicated combat units at 3-4 base with ways to get more.
The Death Guard models in the starter set are stunning. I'm not as sold on the Primaris Marines. I mean, I got zero complaints, but they're a bit less busy than I expected. Very vanilla. It's a good thing, I suppose, as we can all bling them out with tabards and accessories and wings, relics, what not, if we want to.
I think that the pox walker leader will look a lot better with a non white coat. As is, he looks too much like a doctor from a cheap B movie, and he doesnt' fit into 40k at all (looks like a mini for zombicide).
As for the pox walkers themselves, they're cool, but they tried too much with the poses of some of them I mean, what the hell are these guys doing
On the subject of the FW data sheet being over-complicated;
Assuming GW have used AoS and the lessons learned as a basis for the 40k methodology there's ample evidence on the net that for AoS there is such a thing as "too simple".
Find any AoS rules query thread and it won't take you long to find a thread along the lines of "I know the rule explicitly says X and Y, but do we think they mean Z?"
The FAQ for AoS for the most part is a lot of clarifications regarding reading rules. Quite possible the FW data sheet is an attempt to head off questions that might arise later.
Personally hoping the semantic control in 40k is better than it is in AoS. Wounds vs. damage in AoS is hours of fun to get your head around when certain abilities combine.
They are happy in Papa Nurgle's embrace @streetsamurai
That one is literally saying "come at me, I feel nothing of your pain".
It is mocking and gloating, and I personally love that they have character.
Rippy wrote: That one is literally saying "come at me, I feel nothing of your pain".
That two will be saying that, as you get two of each one. That's the problem with these minis. They've made each one too characterful, to the point where having a duplicate looks weird. They're all characters, so to speak, rather than being rank and file.
As individual models they look great, but it'll be odd to have a big unit of 50 where 5 of them have that coat and are all in the exact same pose.
streetsamurai wrote: I think that the pox walker leader will look a lot better with a non white coat. As is, he looks too much like a doctor from a cheap B movie, and he doesnt' fit into 40k at all (looks like a mini for zombicide).
As for the pox walkers themselves, they're cool, but they tried too much with the poses of some of them I mean, what the hell are these guys doing
Yes, I kind of of like the "happy zombie" idea though, makes a change from your standard drooling zombie. What I don't like is the recent need to put massive spikes on everything.
I think it looks bad, I'll be going at mine, with a saw and green stuff, taking off the spikes and putting in more pus, goo and braaiiins!
I'm disappointed they made the poxwalkers monopose like this. Harkens back to the cultists in Dark vengeance, sure they looked great but it was the exact same like 6 cultists over and over and over again. For a horde unit they then started looking weird once you got lots of them on the table. The way they went together didn't really allow you any way of easily modifying them either. Depending on how the kit goes for the Plague marines in this starter set too I'm thinking they may be snap-fit monopose models as well. Don't get me wrong, they look great, but collecting the starter box plague marines might very well mean getting the exact same mono-pose plague marines over and over. It's what bothered me with the dark vengeance chosen, beautiful sculpts but you couldn't easily change their wargear and it was the same 5 guys. This makes me wonder about the future Plague marine kits, will they just be an individual boxing of the 7 that are in this starter set or will they be actual customizable models?
Any one have primaris in Space Wolf? A razorback would be the perfect vehicle for them. Heavy weapon support vs rhino which doesn't have a good weapon system. I never understood how vehicles didn't have a top armor value? Aren't planes and helicopters supposed to be tank killers.
They are still missing a vital part of being a Space Wolf imo. Melee weapons.
There will probably be more variations at some point. We are seeing the limited versions that are in the starter box. I would be utterly surprised if Inceptors don't have a CCW variation, especially for the Blood Angels.
And it isn't like Space Wolves totally eschew ranged weaponry. Their Tactical Squads can take two Special Weapons.
Fluff wise, I guess there is little reason for Primaris to be different between different chapters, as they all have the same geneseed and none of the chapter-specific 'biologies', I think? Which also helps GW as they don't need to do chapter-specific models, you wouldn't expect wolf pelts on SW Primaris marines, or extra wings all over the place for DA ones.
Though yes, I expect there will be some CCW ones. Not making the best use of the 2 attacks without them.
Inevitable_Faith wrote: I'm disappointed they made the poxwalkers monopose like this. Harkens back to the cultists in Dark vengeance, sure they looked great but it was the exact same like 6 cultists over and over and over again. For a horde unit they then started looking weird once you got lots of them on the table. The way they went together didn't really allow you any way of easily modifying them either. Depending on how the kit goes for the Plague marines in this starter set too I'm thinking they may be snap-fit monopose models as well. Don't get me wrong, they look great, but collecting the starter box plague marines might very well mean getting the exact same mono-pose plague marines over and over. It's what bothered me with the dark vengeance chosen, beautiful sculpts but you couldn't easily change their wargear and it was the same 5 guys. This makes me wonder about the future Plague marine kits, will they just be an individual boxing of the 7 that are in this starter set or will they be actual customizable models?
Six attacks wouldnt be to crazy much, especially for a unit oriented on close combat.
We also dont know the exact wording of the rule. Is it attack again at the end of the phase? Do you get to do both at once when you charge, or does the first one get the charge bonus and then you and your opponent do activations?
Plus if it is 6, then with DttFE, that's essentially seven (or 7.2)
Fluff wise, I guess there is little reason for Primaris to be different between different chapters, as they all have the same geneseed and none of the chapter-specific 'biologies', I think? Which also helps GW as they don't need to do chapter-specific models, you wouldn't expect wolf pelts on SW Primaris marines, or extra wings all over the place for DA ones.
Though yes, I expect there will be some CCW ones. Not making the best use of the 2 attacks without them.
The Primaris Marines don't all have the same gene seed. They were made using the gene seed stores that the Ad Mech had available to them(probably the stuff that gets tithed to them). There is just additional genetic modification done beyond that point. There was talk of extra organs being grown. But ultimately, the Dark Angels will receive Primaris Marines that are derived from their own gene stock, same with Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and so on. They are generically equipped at this time, but once they reach their Chapters (and those Chapters start modifying existing Marines using the updated process), Chapter specific variations will start to arise.
Fluff wise, I guess there is little reason for Primaris to be different between different chapters, as they all have the same geneseed and none of the chapter-specific 'biologies', I think? Which also helps GW as they don't need to do chapter-specific models, you wouldn't expect wolf pelts on SW Primaris marines, or extra wings all over the place for DA ones.
Though yes, I expect there will be some CCW ones. Not making the best use of the 2 attacks without them.
The Primaris Marines don't all have the same gene seed. They were made using the gene seed stores that the Ad Mech had available to them(probably the stuff that gets tithed to them). There is just additional genetic modification done beyond that point. There was talk of extra organs being grown. But ultimately, the Dark Angels will receive Primaris Marines that are derived from their own gene stock, same with Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and so on. They are generically equipped at this time, but once they reach their Chapters (and those Chapters start modifying existing Marines using the updated process), Chapter specific variations will start to arise.
They'll run into problems though with the Space Wolves, as Space Wolf geneseed only works with Fenrisians. Unless Guilliman patched this issue, but why would he, because giving the Space Wolves the ability to have successors would just lead to more and more Codex Divergent chapters.
ClockworkZion wrote: PLEASE tell me that regular Grav won't drop 5 wounds on Vehicle, Monstrous and Titanic keyword models.
Probably not - for the same reason that plasma guns and plasma pistols do less damage than the big plasma weapon on a Deredeo dreadnought. I wouldn't be surprised if man-portable grav weapons work the same way, though - doing extra damage to large targets.
So the extra attack will prolly only be vs space marines to replace hatred?
And the attacking twice i'm not sure why folks are saying zerkers are gonna be auto win
new (at the absence of any other info)
1 attack +1 chainsword - 2
1 attack + 1 chainsword - 2 (fights again) - 4
Don't forget Unstoppable Fury based on the Chaos Deamon faction focus for +1 S & A if they charge or are charged. Given Death Guard sharing the same chaos rule as Chaos Deamons, it is s safe bet.
Rippy wrote: That one is literally saying "come at me, I feel nothing of your pain".
That two will be saying that, as you get two of each one. That's the problem with these minis. They've made each one too characterful, to the point where having a duplicate looks weird. They're all characters, so to speak, rather than being rank and file.
As individual models they look great, but it'll be odd to have a big unit of 50 where 5 of them have that coat and are all in the exact same pose.
Yeah the two part kind of sucks, but I have so many zombies and cultists to mix and match squads, going to be pretty cool IMO
Fluff wise, I guess there is little reason for Primaris to be different between different chapters, as they all have the same geneseed and none of the chapter-specific 'biologies', I think? Which also helps GW as they don't need to do chapter-specific models, you wouldn't expect wolf pelts on SW Primaris marines, or extra wings all over the place for DA ones.
Though yes, I expect there will be some CCW ones. Not making the best use of the 2 attacks without them.
The Primaris Marines don't all have the same gene seed. They were made using the gene seed stores that the Ad Mech had available to them(probably the stuff that gets tithed to them). There is just additional genetic modification done beyond that point. There was talk of extra organs being grown. But ultimately, the Dark Angels will receive Primaris Marines that are derived from their own gene stock, same with Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and so on. They are generically equipped at this time, but once they reach their Chapters (and those Chapters start modifying existing Marines using the updated process), Chapter specific variations will start to arise.
They'll run into problems though with the Space Wolves, as Space Wolf geneseed only works with Fenrisians. Unless Guilliman patched this issue, but why would he, because giving the Space Wolves the ability to have successors would just lead to more and more Codex Divergent chapters.
Primaris Marines are already a breach of the Codex in the first place. And besides, desperate times call for desperate measures. Remember, he put up with their divergence after the Heresy as well. And seeing that the Wolves were fully capable, steadfast protectors of the Imperium that were very resistant to turning to Chaos, Guiliman probably saw fit to ensure that successful Primaris Space Wolves were created. Additionally, since the majority of the Primaris Marines at this point are vat-grown, Cawl could have bypassed the defect during the creation process.
Well the Deathwatch game had monopose Hybrids that were later released as a new multi-pose kit, so I wouldn't rule it out.
It wasn't a start set though, and technically it was a stand-alone box game (with models that "just so happened" to be in the same scale, detail and design as the regular models as opposed to Space Hulk). They also weren't released as monopose, Killteam Cassius is a set of 11 unique character models, where the Deathwatch Veterans is capable of building similar models, they can't make multipart duplicates of the Overkill models.
Nostromodamus wrote: So are we thinking no Primaris Wulfen, or for that matter, Death Company?
I believe Primaris Death Company were hinted at somewhere. Perhaps the process that allows vat-grown Primaris Space Wolves to exist reduced the likelihood of them going Wulfen.
Nostromodamus wrote: So are we thinking no Primaris Wulfen, or for that matter, Death Company?
I see nothing that would prevent Death Company Primaris.
Unless they'd maybe specifically also (successfully) incorporate whatever the Adeptus Terra (?) was trying to do with the BA-Geneseed (from regular BA successor geneseed tithe send to Terra anyhow by all Chapters for 10.000 years, unless they went Huron) when they made the Lamenters in M36 as they make BA-Geneseed-based Primaris Marines?
Wulfen probably not. Not least because I don't think they'll do a second Wulfen kit anytime soon and they are different enough (and larger than normal Marines) to be their own thing anyhow.
But it might be they do some new Space Wolves Primaris-based kit once a full new SW release comes around. "Better-contained-Curse-while-still-being-Primaris-power-armoured-instead-of-black-carapace-nacked" might be an excuse for a slightly more extravagant Primaris Wolves kit.
Nostromodamus wrote: So are we thinking no Primaris Wulfen, or for that matter, Death Company?
How? BA are royally fethed because they are on the other side of the Rift, completely isolated from Guilliman. Unless he and Crawl are using stored BA's gene-seed, creating his own "Primaris BA legion" so he can deliver to them and their successors Chapters (once they eventually manage to reach them), I don't see Primaris BA for the time being.
Fluff wise, I guess there is little reason for Primaris to be different between different chapters, as they all have the same geneseed and none of the chapter-specific 'biologies', I think? Which also helps GW as they don't need to do chapter-specific models, you wouldn't expect wolf pelts on SW Primaris marines, or extra wings all over the place for DA ones.
Though yes, I expect there will be some CCW ones. Not making the best use of the 2 attacks without them.
The Primaris Marines don't all have the same gene seed. They were made using the gene seed stores that the Ad Mech had available to them(probably the stuff that gets tithed to them). There is just additional genetic modification done beyond that point. There was talk of extra organs being grown. But ultimately, the Dark Angels will receive Primaris Marines that are derived from their own gene stock, same with Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and so on. They are generically equipped at this time, but once they reach their Chapters (and those Chapters start modifying existing Marines using the updated process), Chapter specific variations will start to arise.
Lord Commander Guilliman: Belisarius Cawl, why the feth did you implant the primaris marines with VI Legion geneseed?
Archmagos Dominus Cawl: Space Wolves geneseed.
Lord Commander Guilliman: Whatever. They nearly destroyed Mars. You endangered the lives of all of your fellow techpriests.
Second Captain Sicarius: And Ultramarines too!
Chief Librarian Tigurius: Shut up Cato.
Lord Commander Guilliman: I want answers.
Archmagos Dominus Cawl: Well it kinda goes like this Guilliman. I mean, this batch of primaris marines was supposed to be reinforcements for Fenris, the homeworld of the Space Wolves, right?
Lord Commander Guilliman: Continue.
Archmagos Dominus Cawl: And Space Wolves all have geneseed from Leman Russ, primarch of the VI Legion, right?
Lord Commander Guilliman: Affirmative.
Archmagos Dominus Cawl: So the primaris marines are just like real Space Wolves.
Lord Commander Guilliman: Explain.
Archmagos Dominus Cawl: They have Space Wolves geneseed.
Lord Commander Guilliman: That's the most slowed thing I've ever heard.
Archmagos Dominus Cawl: What, I wanted them to be authentic!
Lord Commander Guilliman: Throne of Terra... no wonder none of your gak ever works.
Inquisitor Greyfax: Hey Cawl, I bet real Space Wolves are 12 feet tall too! Ehehehehe...
Archmagos Dominus Cawl: feth you Greyfax.
Lord Commander Guilliman: Cawl, I'm holding you responsible for this project.
Inquisitor Greyfax: Haha!
Lord Commander Guilliman: It was your idea to create giant mutant space marine werewolves and then not give them enough brains to tell their head from their ass. What the feth were you thinking, Cawl? I mean you've made some stupid inventions before, but this one takes the cake.
Nostromodamus wrote: So are we thinking no Primaris Wulfen, or for that matter, Death Company?
How? BA are royally fethed because they are on the other side of the Rift, completely isolated from Guilliman. Unless he and Crawl are using stored BA's gene-seed, creating his own "Primaris BA legion" so he can deliver to them and their successors Chapters (once they eventually manage to reach them), I don't see Primaris BA for the time being.
A. There're huge stockpiles of all loyal (and possibly some Traitor?) geneseeds on Terra. It's called the tithe.
B. Baal is on the other side of the rift, but Chapters tend to be all over the galaxy. Surely parts even of the basic Blood Angels (as well as plenty of BA successors) were caught on the Terra-side of the rift and might get Primaris more easily).
C. The entire starter box is called "Dark Imperium", referencing the far side of the Rift. Seems like Guilliman is getting there sooner rather than later.
Nostromodamus wrote: So are we thinking no Primaris Wulfen, or for that matter, Death Company?
I believe Primaris Death Company were hinted at somewhere. Perhaps the process that allows vat-grown Primaris Space Wolves to exist reduced the likelihood of them going Wulfen.
Yeah they heavily, almost outright confirmed that Red Thirst carries across to the Primaris Marines, so it'd back sense that the Black Rage would too (unless, of course, they bring Sanguinius back or whatever. See, he really is Space Jesus Waow).
I believe Primaris Death Company were hinted at somewhere. Perhaps the process that allows vat-grown Primaris Space Wolves to exist reduced the likelihood of them going Wulfen.
It would be nice if Cawl was able to duplicate Thar Hraldir's research and remove the flaw in the Canis Helix. I always thought space vikings were cool, space wulf wulfy mcwulfen wulfbrothers with wulfclaws were lame. In fact I think 40k could do with a lot less of the 'pick a word apply it to everything in the codex'.
Nostromodamus wrote: So are we thinking no Primaris Wulfen, or for that matter, Death Company?
How? BA are royally fethed because they are on the other side of the Rift, completely isolated from Guilliman. Unless he and Crawl are using stored BA's gene-seed, creating his own "Primaris BA legion" so he can deliver to them and their successors Chapters (once they eventually manage to reach them), I don't see Primaris BA for the time being.
It's almost like the Ad Mech doesn't have huge stores of Space Marine geneseed. Probably for the express purpose of making more marines. My theory is that the Geneseed tithe was actually to fuel Cawl's Primaris Marine Project in the first place.
Nostromodamus wrote: So are we thinking no Primaris Wulfen, or for that matter, Death Company?
How? BA are royally fethed because they are on the other side of the Rift, completely isolated from Guilliman. Unless he and Crawl are using stored BA's gene-seed, creating his own "Primaris BA legion" so he can deliver to them and their successors Chapters (once they eventually manage to reach them), I don't see Primaris BA for the time being.
A. There're huge stockpiles of all loyal (and possibly some Traitor?) geneseeds on Terra. It's called the tithe.
B. Baal is on the other side of the rift, but Chapters tend to be all over the galaxy. Surely parts even of the basic Blood Angels (as well as plenty of BA successors) were caught on the Terra-side of the rift and might get Primaris more easily).
C. The entire starter box is called "Dark Imperium", referencing the far side of the Rift. Seems like Guilliman is getting there sooner rather than later.
A. Yes, but there's no guarantee they are using gene-seed of all chapters. Specially from ones they can't contact. They are giving primaris marines to existing chapters as reenforcements, if they can't contact BAs... why make them? We'll see what they write.
B. Agreed, but remember, by the time the Gathering Storm was happening, Baal was going to be hit by Hive Fleet Leviathan. I do not recall for certain, but I think all companies were asked to return to Baal to help defend the home-planet.
I believe Primaris Death Company were hinted at somewhere. Perhaps the process that allows vat-grown Primaris Space Wolves to exist reduced the likelihood of them going Wulfen.
It would be nice if Cawl was able to duplicate Thar Hraldir's research and remove the flaw in the Canis Helix. I always thought space vikings were cool, space wulf wulfy mcwulfen wulfbrothers with wulfclaws were lame. In fact I think 40k could do with a lot less of the 'pick a word apply it to everything in the codex'.
That would be awesome. Make the Wolves less Wolfy. 1d4chan Bjorn would be thrilled. I think If they went back to the styling of the Burning of Prospero Space Wolves, I would like them a lot more. Throw some runes on their armor, call it good.
A. Yes, but there's no guarantee they are using gene-seed of all chapters. Specially from ones they can't contact. They are giving primaris marines to existing chapters as reenforcements, if they can't contact BAs... why make them? We'll see what they write.
True. But neither is there any indication on why they wouldn't use any and all as they did with all previous foundings of Chapters. It's not like the BA Chapter Master had a say or a veto in the creation of Lamenters or Flesh Tearers or little Timmy's Blood Ninja-Master-Killaz or whatever.
Don't like it Dante? Tough luck.
And it could be just as reasonable to assume that they start the Primaris with the geneseed that's comparatively useless/more flawed anyhow (Space Wolves, BA, etc..) and keep the good stuff (i.e. Ultramarines) safe for regular Marines (because it still works) until they are sure there are no drawbacks.
Ultramarines-stock Primaris could just as likely be the rarest Primaris, at least initially, if the writers felt like this would be the way to go (unlikely, but nothing we know thus far seems to favour any particular outcome).
In spite of its flaws, BA Geneseed is incredibly stable and fairly resistant to corruption (are there even any BA derived Chaos Space Marines the way there are UM?). If anything, it and Imperial Fist Geneseed (which is also very stable) would have been the ideal Geneseeds to work with.
C. The entire starter box is called "Dark Imperium", referencing the far side of the Rift. Seems like Guilliman is getting there sooner rather than later.
Well I believe they are picking the timeline back up years later.
I'm assuming all Space Wolves will have the key word "wolfy mcwolfface".
I mean this in the nicest way possible: Frack you!
That would be awesome. Make the Wolves less Wolfy. 1d4chan Bjorn would be thrilled. I think If they went back to the styling of the Burning of Prospero Space Wolves, I would like them a lot more. Throw some runes on their armor, call it good.
Well I believe they are picking the timeline back up years later.
If so, that would give them even more time to add a paragraph along the lines of ... "the first ships of BA Primaris arrived on Baal, despite heavy losses crossing the rift-thing, and while Dante was initially less than thrilled, they soon proved their worth at the battle of "random-Tyranid-massive-battle-near-Baal" where they turned the tide of the battle. Since then, the Primaris have become a valued part of the BA chapter. Unfortunatley, it soon became apparent that not even the Primaris were save from the Chapter's dark curse ..... "
Well I believe they are picking the timeline back up years later.
If so, that would give them even more time to add a paragraph along the lines of ... "the first ships of BA Primaris arrived on Baal, despite heavy losses crossing the rift-thing, and while Dante was initially less than thrilled, they soon proved their worth at the battle of "random-Tyranid-massive-battle-near-Baal" where they turned the tide of the battle. Since then, the Primaris have become a valued part of the BA chapter. Unfortunatley, it soon became apparent that not even the Primaris were save from the Chapter's dark curse ..... "
I would be more than happy with the rulebook containing such snippets to justify Primaris Marines for all the big chapters. BL's writers will have a field day with all the new events to make books of.
Lord Kragan wrote: So today is Orks faction focus. What will be your thoughts.
Dormant Brain Boyz gene in Snotlings will awaken and new Snotling-led united Ork empire will form. "Primerriz" Orks will spawn. They will be OP in 8th.
The Iron hands probably will like them a lot, they are made with the help of a Magos, whom they respect. And they are all about enhancing themselves.
Upcoming Orks faction focus. Hoping a warboss will be a lot 'arder, 3 wounds is not especially tough in this edition with all the multiwound weapons, last edition they had t5 which was enough to avoid instadeath by most weapons. Mob rule needs to be way better as well.
Lord Kragan wrote: So today is Orks faction focus. What will be your thoughts.
Well we can't get any worse.
You still have initiative. 1. Everyone goes before you always. No saves. Ld2 and unable to use stratagems. Also, 50% increase on everything. You're welcome.
Lord Kragan wrote: So today is Orks faction focus. What will be your thoughts.
Well we can't get any worse.
You still have initiative. 1. Everyone goes before you always. No saves. Ld2 and unable to use stratagems. Also, 50% increase on everything. You're welcome.
Realisticly speaking though they are the weakest faction, and I'm sure they have heard the orks crying on Facebook they must buff dem ork.
Lord Kragan wrote: So today is Orks faction focus. What will be your thoughts.
Well we can't get any worse.
You still have initiative. 1. Everyone goes before you always. No saves. Ld2 and unable to use stratagems. Also, 50% increase on everything. You're welcome.
Sorry, are you describing what they did to Killa Kanz from the 5th to the 7th codex?
Just like the multi-part Chaos Cultists GW relea... oh wait.
Justyn wrote: Well I believe they are picking the timeline back up years later.
So the game is set in M42?
Lord Kragan wrote: So today is Orks faction focus. What will be your thoughts.
Same thing as every faction focus:
"[Unit Name] is going to be fantastic in the new edition! Thanks to [New Bespoke Rule], [Unit Name] will be seen on every table. And remember how [Unit Name] never saw play? Well that's all changed in the New™ Warhammer™ 40,000™. [Unit Name] has been completely redesigned, and thanks to the new rules in the [Phase Name Here] we think all of you will see how good [Unit Name] can be! We can't wait for all you [Faction Name] players out there to get your hands on them this June!"
Visited my local GW today to see some of the minis in person, namely a Plague Marine, the main Nurgle character, a pox walker and a Primaris Marine. I must say they looked a lot better in person than my initial impressions suggested, the Plague Marine especially looked a lot less "busy". When comparing them to one of the Dark Vengeance tactical marines they are just massive but also far better miniatures. Am stoked by this release.
The Iron hands probably will like them a lot, they are made with the help of a Magos, whom they respect. And they are all about enhancing themselves.
Its an interesting thought because as you say, the Iron Hands are about upgrading, but also "The Flesh is Weak" and that they need to replace as much of themselves as possible with mechanical upgrades. Some of those upgrades may actually be inferior to the new and improved PriMarines. How would they handle that realisation, that the flesh is superior.
Upcoming Orks faction focus. Hoping a warboss will be a lot 'arder, 3 wounds is not especially tough in this edition with all the multiwound weapons, last edition they had t5 which was enough to avoid instadeath by most weapons. Mob rule needs to be way better as well.
I'm personally hoping that Mob Rule acts as a counter to morale. Maybe not on the level of Tyranids ignoring it under certain conditions, but perhaps for every 5 models in the unit, you +1 (or -1? Whichever is preferable) to morale tests. Meaning the more you take, the less you lose to Morale Tests, but the more you lose, the more you lose. It would certainly encourage larger squads and thus model sales so I could see it going that route.
I definitely think Warbosses will be tougher. I could see T6 and W5-6 as a base. Maybe Ghaz will finally get his MC version, with T8 and 10 wounds.
Deadshot wrote: Its an interesting thought because as you say, the Iron Hands are about upgrading, but also "The Flesh is Weak" and that they need to replace as much of themselves as possible with mechanical upgrades. Some of those upgrades may actually be inferior to the new and improved PriMarines. How would they handle that realisation, that the flesh is superior.
I reckon that even Cawl would be pissed off if, after spending all this time making Super Marines, the Iron Hands just start sawing bits of them to replace them with bionics.
So I was thinking about the whole power level thing, and I think we all are coming from the power level numbers from the wrong direction.
I don't think power level is a point equivalent system. I think it's more like a danger rating. So when you go to play narrative or open games, you just talk to your opponent, determine how many units, or what Battlefroge table to use, and then state no units over power level 10. This is a super easy way to field an army, For example. You could fill your troops slots with units of rubric marines, but you couldn't make them a 10man because there power level would increase to 11. You couldn't bring the swarm lord at all.
Overall this would create a somewhat balanced game because all the units (as long as you state how many units each person can bring or pick a battleforge list as a limiter) would be on the same level or effectiveness. It would be a far better system then bringing the equal number of model system that AoS started with, but without overly complicating the army building for narrative/open play.
Honestly, being a long time competitive player, if narrative games are done this way, it might actually be an interesting way to play.
In this system, there is no need to compare the Knight Titan to 4 units of 5 man Rubrics, because that not what it's meant for, the power level just shows you that the KT is far more dangerous and thus should only be played in games where each person agrees to play super dangerous units.
Vorian wrote: Pretty sure power level is going to work exactly like the system in AoS, which is a simpler points system
Well the AoS simple point system seems somewhat balanced, a comparison of the power level system so far from what we have seen is very broken if done the AoS. 11 powerlevel for 10x kitted out rubric marines, 16 for that kitted out Leviathan Dreadnought. System broken already.
Coyote81 wrote: So I was thinking about the whole power level thing, and I think we all are coming from the power level numbers from the wrong direction.
I don't think power level is a point equivalent system. I think it's more like a danger rating. So when you go to play narrative or open games, you just talk to your opponent, determine how many units, or what Battlefroge table to use, and then state no units over power level 10. This is a super easy way to field an army, For example. You could fill your troops slots with units of rubric marines, but you couldn't make them a 10man because there power level would increase to 11. You couldn't bring the swarm lord at all.
Overall this would create a somewhat balanced game because all the units (as long as you state how many units each person can bring or pick a battleforge list as a limiter) would be on the same level or effectiveness. It would be a far better system then bringing the equal number of model system that AoS started with, but without overly complicating the army building for narrative/open play.
Honestly, being a long time competitive player, if narrative games are done this way, it might actually be an interesting way to play.
In this system, there is no need to compare the Knight Titan to 4 units of 5 man Rubrics, because that not what it's meant for, the power level just shows you that the KT is far more dangerous and thus should only be played in games where each person agrees to play super dangerous units.
I think this is a fantastic idea and makes much more sense than before.
So in your system, both players can take 4 Troops and 1 Elites unit, but no unit may have a power rating of more than, say 15? So tacticals would be fine, Rubrics fine, maybe Sternguard fine, Striking Scorpions fine, Siege Dreadnoughts and Land Raiders not? I like it. Keeps everything on equal power, rather than "I bring 4 squads you bring 1 titan"
Vorian wrote: Pretty sure power level is going to work exactly like the system in AoS, which is a simpler points system
Well the AoS simple point system seems somewhat balanced, a comparison of the power level system so far from what we have seen is very broken if done the AoS. 11 powerlevel for 10x kitted out rubric marines, 16 for that kitted out Leviathan Dreadnought. System broken already.
It's pretty hard to talk balance without a full picture
Forgeworld minis in AoS have a pretty terrible reputation for being rediculously under or over pointed compared to the main studio stuff. Hopefully the 40k stuff will be better balanced but the first hint is not very promising.
Just like the multi-part Chaos Cultists GW relea... oh wait.
Justyn wrote: Well I believe they are picking the timeline back up years later.
So the game is set in M42?
Lord Kragan wrote: So today is Orks faction focus. What will be your thoughts.
Same thing as every faction focus:
"[Unit Name] is going to be fantastic in the new edition! Thanks to [New Bespoke Rule], [Unit Name] will be seen on every table. And remember how [Unit Name] never saw play? Well that's all changed in the New™ Warhammer™ 40,000™. [Unit Name] has been completely redesigned, and thanks to the new rules in the [Phase Name Here] we think all of you will see how good [Unit Name] can be! We can't wait for all you [Faction Name] players out there to get your hands on them this June!"
And suddenly Flash Gitz get the Pyrovore treatment and become the Best Unit Evar(tm).
Lord Kragan wrote: So today is Orks faction focus. What will be your thoughts.
I think we'll see a lot of bonuses for hordes. Would not be surprised if the number of models in the units add to their attacks. I hope they are amazing in close combat with lots of dakka dakka!
I'm not the type of person that would play Orks, but I always enjoyed playing against them. Bad thing is I would destroy them at their own game (assault). I really hope they are good and fun to play against. Ork players are crazy. Love those guys. They need an army that represents them well..
ClockworkZion wrote: Internet is loving to photoshop the new kids on the block in different colors and frankly I think it's actually helping make them look better than they do in the promotional shots:
I don't want to sound like I'm hating on the Ultramarines, I mean I LIKE the color blue, but something about it doesn't seem to work on the Primaris Marines like other colors do.
Oh. My. God. Those are BEAUTIFUL. That's it, I'm getting some for my Salamanders.
Vorian wrote: Pretty sure power level is going to work exactly like the system in AoS, which is a simpler points system
Well the AoS simple point system seems somewhat balanced, a comparison of the power level system so far from what we have seen is very broken if done the AoS. 11 powerlevel for 10x kitted out rubric marines, 16 for that kitted out Leviathan Dreadnought. System broken already.
It's pretty hard to talk balance without a full picture
This. I'd be cautious about thinking Power Level is going to a great indication of anything as well. From accounts of one of the playtesters, Power Level is a "very rough approximation".
From what we've seen with Orks, my initial impression is that Ork Shooty units in transports will be the way to go. Still decent in cc, and you can have a couple of guys in each squad (Nob, Painboy, etc...) kitted out for cc, so you'll drive forward as far as you can, unload a ton of Dakka, weather the return fire, jump out of your transport (if it's still there), have your transport charge in to absorb fire and then charge in da boyz. Actually sounds like fun.
That article doesn't invalidate my idea. Your still going to have someone with the highest total power level even if there is a power level limit for individual units.
Fluff wise, I guess there is little reason for Primaris to be different between different chapters, as they all have the same geneseed and none of the chapter-specific 'biologies', I think? Which also helps GW as they don't need to do chapter-specific models, you wouldn't expect wolf pelts on SW Primaris marines, or extra wings all over the place for DA ones.
Though yes, I expect there will be some CCW ones. Not making the best use of the 2 attacks without them.
The Primaris Marines don't all have the same gene seed. They were made using the gene seed stores that the Ad Mech had available to them(probably the stuff that gets tithed to them). There is just additional genetic modification done beyond that point. There was talk of extra organs being grown. But ultimately, the Dark Angels will receive Primaris Marines that are derived from their own gene stock, same with Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and so on. They are generically equipped at this time, but once they reach their Chapters (and those Chapters start modifying existing Marines using the updated process), Chapter specific variations will start to arise.
They'll run into problems though with the Space Wolves, as Space Wolf geneseed only works with Fenrisians. Unless Guilliman patched this issue, but why would he, because giving the Space Wolves the ability to have successors would just lead to more and more Codex Divergent chapters.
The original Space Wolves legion was full of members from Terra and other worlds though, so clearly there is some kind of solution there.
Who knows, we'll have to see exactly ow GW handles that or if they ignore that fluff.
ClockworkZion wrote: Internet is loving to photoshop the new kids on the block in different colors and frankly I think it's actually helping make them look better than they do in the promotional shots:
I don't want to sound like I'm hating on the Ultramarines, I mean I LIKE the color blue, but something about it doesn't seem to work on the Primaris Marines like other colors do.
Oh. My. God. Those are BEAUTIFUL. That's it, I'm getting some for my Salamanders.
I wish I didn't suck at Photoshop so I could see what they look like in Blood Angels and Crimson Fists colors.
ClockworkZion wrote: Internet is loving to photoshop the new kids on the block in different colors and frankly I think it's actually helping make them look better than they do in the promotional shots:
I don't want to sound like I'm hating on the Ultramarines, I mean I LIKE the color blue, but something about it doesn't seem to work on the Primaris Marines like other colors do.
Oh. My. God. Those are BEAUTIFUL. That's it, I'm getting some for my Salamanders.
I wish I didn't suck at Photoshop so I could see what they look like in Blood Angels and Crimson Fists colors.
They have adone a few at user requests in the previously linked reddit discussion, just so happens a BA was one of them.
Deadshot wrote: Its an interesting thought because as you say, the Iron Hands are about upgrading, but also "The Flesh is Weak" and that they need to replace as much of themselves as possible with mechanical upgrades. Some of those upgrades may actually be inferior to the new and improved PriMarines. How would they handle that realisation, that the flesh is superior.
I reckon that even Cawl would be pissed off if, after spending all this time making Super Marines, the Iron Hands just start sawing bits of them to replace them with bionics.
You mean replacing their bodies with machines just like he has?
In the thread I linked above he has done both of those
I missed it before. The Blood Angel looks pretty nice. However, they committed Cardinal Sin #1 with the Crimson Fist. They don't follow the standard color schemes. Their helmets never change based on rank, so the helmet should still be blue. Also, the right fist on the Captain would likely be red.
Deadshot wrote: Its an interesting thought because as you say, the Iron Hands are about upgrading, but also "The Flesh is Weak" and that they need to replace as much of themselves as possible with mechanical upgrades. Some of those upgrades may actually be inferior to the new and improved PriMarines. How would they handle that realisation, that the flesh is superior.
I reckon that even Cawl would be pissed off if, after spending all this time making Super Marines, the Iron Hands just start sawing bits of them to replace them with bionics.
You mean replacing their bodies with machines just like he has?
Oh the irony of that tantrum would be delicious.
An argument could be made that if they can still "upgrade" Primaris with bionics, why bother with Primaris at all and not have Cawl bionic-up ever Marines?
Had a look at the models today, luckily walked in as boss man was painting up the Nurgle Lord, they just look awesome. The Gravis Captain is nicer in person too, kinda getting used to the fat belly armour.
An argument could be made that if they can still "upgrade" Primaris with bionics, why bother with Primaris at all and not have Cawl bionic-up ever Marines?
If I was a space nerd, and had to choose between inventing a pill that steroid jacks everyone or going one at a time and applying the imperial marine Ikea kit to them I'd certainly go with the pill.
Lord Kragan wrote: So today is Orks faction focus. What will be your thoughts.
Same thing as every faction focus:
"[Unit Name] is going to be fantastic in the new edition! Thanks to [New Bespoke Rule], [Unit Name] will be seen on every table. And remember how [Unit Name] never saw play? Well that's all changed in the New™ Warhammer™ 40,000™. [Unit Name] has been completely redesigned, and thanks to the new rules in the [Phase Name Here] we think all of you will see how good [Unit Name] can be! We can't wait for all you [Faction Name] players out there to get your hands on them this June!"
I laughed so hard at this. I started out reading the first 2-3 faction focus's pretty intently thinking the information might be reasonably relevant... and now that MY one and only faction I play has come up... Im pretty certain a plagiarism checker would slap your quote with a 98% accurate result
Vorian wrote: Pretty sure power level is going to work exactly like the system in AoS, which is a simpler points system
Well the AoS simple point system seems somewhat balanced, a comparison of the power level system so far from what we have seen is very broken if done the AoS. 11 powerlevel for 10x kitted out rubric marines, 16 for that kitted out Leviathan Dreadnought. System broken already.
Do you know how well those Rubrics murder infantry?
They're not meant to take on a massive dreadnought. We also have nothing on weapon costs, which power level cares nothing about.
BrookM wrote: Looks like seize the initiative is also out.
GOOD. That was a stupid mechanic and I'm glad it's gone.
I kind of hope Underdog comes to Matched Play. It would be interesting to see people bring lower points to tournaments to try and sneak out an advantage. Metagaming at its finest.
BrookM wrote: Looks like seize the initiative is also out.
GOOD. That was a stupid mechanic and I'm glad it's gone.
I kind of hope Underdog comes to Matched Play. It would be interesting to see people bring lower points to tournaments to try and sneak out an advantage. Metagaming at its finest.
It dosen't seem like that much of an advantage though, does it? I get to bring 19 points more then you, and you get to re-roll 1 dice
It's not a point you can spend on anything els, it's a CP re-roll
Sounds like match play still uses the book missions with very little change. Which imho is horrible for balance purposes. The current core book maerlstrom and war missions are horribly biased toward elite mobile armies such as eldar. Which is why nearly every tournament creates thier own multi tiered mission primer with several objectives. If the core missions are still simply get the objective, or kill point or relic there was a huge reason why jetbikes warp spiders etc and hard to kill fast units dominated 7th
BrookM wrote: Looks like seize the initiative is also out.
GOOD. That was a stupid mechanic and I'm glad it's gone.
I kind of hope Underdog comes to Matched Play. It would be interesting to see people bring lower points to tournaments to try and sneak out an advantage. Metagaming at its finest.
While at first I thought having seize was at least something, I totally agree that their should be better ways in securing first turn, such as taking less points, spending command points, etc. Never liked how i always considered the Callidus assain just so I could secure 1st turn easier.
BrookM wrote: Looks like seize the initiative is also out.
GOOD. That was a stupid mechanic and I'm glad it's gone.
I kind of hope Underdog comes to Matched Play. It would be interesting to see people bring lower points to tournaments to try and sneak out an advantage. Metagaming at its finest.
It dosen't seem like that much of an advantage though, does it? I get to bring 19 points more then you, and you get to re-roll 1 dice
It's not a point you can spend on anything els, it's a CP re-roll
Rerolls are a big deal. Rerolling that save on your Primarch against a Damage 6 weapon is a big deal. And being able to pick who goes first/second is pretty large as well.
Also note in Victory Conditions, the Underdog wins in the case of a tie, so taking less points actually increases your chances of winning if the game is close.
Vorian wrote: Pretty sure power level is going to work exactly like the system in AoS, which is a simpler points system
Well the AoS simple point system seems somewhat balanced, a comparison of the power level system so far from what we have seen is very broken if done the AoS. 11 powerlevel for 10x kitted out rubric marines, 16 for that kitted out Leviathan Dreadnought. System broken already.
Do you know how well those Rubrics murder infantry?
They're not meant to take on a massive dreadnought. We also have nothing on weapon costs, which power level cares nothing about.
The point is that even tho they murder infantry, do you think they murder stuff better then the leviathan dread? He murders everything and barely cost more in power level.
BrookM wrote: Looks like seize the initiative is also out.
GOOD. That was a stupid mechanic and I'm glad it's gone.
I kind of hope Underdog comes to Matched Play. It would be interesting to see people bring lower points to tournaments to try and sneak out an advantage. Metagaming at its finest.
It dosen't seem like that much of an advantage though, does it? I get to bring 19 points more then you, and you get to re-roll 1 dice
It's not a point you can spend on anything els, it's a CP re-roll
Rerolls are a big deal. Rerolling that save on your Primarch against a Damage 6 weapon is a big deal. And being able to pick who goes first/second is pretty large as well.
Also note in Victory Conditions, the Underdog wins in the case of a tie, so taking less points actually increases your chances of winning if the game is close.
Indeed they are. I imagine Corbulo will give you extra rerolls.
Vorian wrote: Pretty sure power level is going to work exactly like the system in AoS, which is a simpler points system
Well the AoS simple point system seems somewhat balanced, a comparison of the power level system so far from what we have seen is very broken if done the AoS. 11 powerlevel for 10x kitted out rubric marines, 16 for that kitted out Leviathan Dreadnought. System broken already.
Do you know how well those Rubrics murder infantry?
They're not meant to take on a massive dreadnought. We also have nothing on weapon costs, which power level cares nothing about.
The point is that even tho they murder infantry, do you think they murder stuff better then the leviathan dread? He murders everything and barely cost more in power level.
Not really. His guns are powerful, but they're all relatively low number of shots but high damage. Damage doesn't carry over models, so those big guns are going to kill ~5 Marines really dead. Rubric Marines with Soulreaper Cannons or Warpflamers are going to kill more 1 wound models because they just have more shots, period. Damage 3 doesn't mean anything against infantry.
gungo wrote: Sounds like match play still uses the book missions with very little change. Which imho is horrible for balance purposes. The current core book maerlstrom and war missions are horribly biased toward elite mobile armies such as eldar. Which is why nearly every tournament creates thier own multi tiered mission primer with several objectives. If the core missions are still simply get the objective, or kill point or relic there was a huge reason why jetbikes warp spiders etc and hard to kill fast units dominated 7th
This is balanced by non elite armies now being better at controlling the objectives. Like in AoS, you now control the point if you have more models than the enemy near it.
If you have an IK on the point and i have 2 hormagaunst, i control the point.
Vorian wrote: Pretty sure power level is going to work exactly like the system in AoS, which is a simpler points system
Well the AoS simple point system seems somewhat balanced, a comparison of the power level system so far from what we have seen is very broken if done the AoS. 11 powerlevel for 10x kitted out rubric marines, 16 for that kitted out Leviathan Dreadnought. System broken already.
Do you know how well those Rubrics murder infantry?
They're not meant to take on a massive dreadnought. We also have nothing on weapon costs, which power level cares nothing about.
The point is that even tho they murder infantry, do you think they murder stuff better then the leviathan dread? He murders everything and barely cost more in power level.
Not really. His guns are powerful, but they're all relatively low number of shots but high damage. Damage doesn't carry over models, so those big guns are going to kill ~5 Marines really dead. Rubric Marines with Soulreaper Cannons or Warpflamers are going to kill more 1 wound models because they just have more shots, period. Damage 3 doesn't mean anything against infantry.
Vorian wrote: Pretty sure power level is going to work exactly like the system in AoS, which is a simpler points system
Well the AoS simple point system seems somewhat balanced, a comparison of the power level system so far from what we have seen is very broken if done the AoS. 11 powerlevel for 10x kitted out rubric marines, 16 for that kitted out Leviathan Dreadnought. System broken already.
Do you know how well those Rubrics murder infantry?
They're not meant to take on a massive dreadnought. We also have nothing on weapon costs, which power level cares nothing about.
The point is that even tho they murder infantry, do you think they murder stuff better then the leviathan dread? He murders everything and barely cost more in power level.
He has 2 meltas and 2 flamers. That's it.
13 Rubrics are a bit less PL than the Leviathan.
Leviathan as stock can kill 3.5 marines at 8".
Rubrics can kill 5.8 at 12" and are killing marines way before the dreadnought does.
I would hardly call that a massive advantage after those shooting numbers.
Bring the right tool for the job.
Obviously the biggers guns make the dreadnought way better, but we have no idea what the points cost for those will be. Power Levels give NO consideration to selected options and they aren't meant to.
BrookM wrote: Looks like seize the initiative is also out.
GOOD. That was a stupid mechanic and I'm glad it's gone.
I kind of hope Underdog comes to Matched Play. It would be interesting to see people bring lower points to tournaments to try and sneak out an advantage. Metagaming at its finest.
It dosen't seem like that much of an advantage though, does it? I get to bring 19 points more then you, and you get to re-roll 1 dice
It's not a point you can spend on anything els, it's a CP re-roll
Rerolls are a big deal. Rerolling that save on your Primarch against a Damage 6 weapon is a big deal. And being able to pick who goes first/second is pretty large as well.
Also note in Victory Conditions, the Underdog wins in the case of a tie, so taking less points actually increases your chances of winning if the game is close.
Okay that last bit about the ties does make a difference. Fair enough, but I'd take 19 points over one re-roll any single day. It's ONE save, your got 19 extra points to take stuff that will make sure that that single re-roll dosen't matter.
Ask a tournament player if he'd like a re-roll or 3-400 more points that his enemy.
gungo wrote: Sounds like match play still uses the book missions with very little change. Which imho is horrible for balance purposes. The current core book maerlstrom and war missions are horribly biased toward elite mobile armies such as eldar. Which is why nearly every tournament creates thier own multi tiered mission primer with several objectives. If the core missions are still simply get the objective, or kill point or relic there was a huge reason why jetbikes warp spiders etc and hard to kill fast units dominated 7th
This is balanced by non elite armies now being better at controlling the objectives. Like in AoS, you now control the point if you have more models than the enemy near it.
If you have an IK on the point and i have 2 hormagaunst, i control the point.
Not only that, the army with the lower power rating wins in a tie. So people that spam high power level units will lose. That's smart design. I think it'll be fine.
Vorian wrote: Pretty sure power level is going to work exactly like the system in AoS, which is a simpler points system
Well the AoS simple point system seems somewhat balanced, a comparison of the power level system so far from what we have seen is very broken if done the AoS. 11 powerlevel for 10x kitted out rubric marines, 16 for that kitted out Leviathan Dreadnought. System broken already.
Do you know how well those Rubrics murder infantry?
They're not meant to take on a massive dreadnought. We also have nothing on weapon costs, which power level cares nothing about.
The point is that even tho they murder infantry, do you think they murder stuff better then the leviathan dread? He murders everything and barely cost more in power level.
Not really. His guns are powerful, but they're all relatively low number of shots but high damage. Damage doesn't carry over models, so those big guns are going to kill ~5 Marines really dead. Rubric Marines with Soulreaper Cannons or Warpflamers are going to kill more 1 wound models because they just have more shots, period. Damage 3 doesn't mean anything against infantry.
Don't tell Terminators and Primaris Marines that.
You mean something meant to kill Elite troops is good at killing Elite troops better than something designed to kill Troops? You don't say? Since you're using specifics, take that dread against a horde of hormagaunts and then let the Rubrics do the same. Bet the Rubrics kill far more.
gungo wrote: Sounds like match play still uses the book missions with very little change. Which imho is horrible for balance purposes. The current core book maerlstrom and war missions are horribly biased toward elite mobile armies such as eldar. Which is why nearly every tournament creates thier own multi tiered mission primer with several objectives. If the core missions are still simply get the objective, or kill point or relic there was a huge reason why jetbikes warp spiders etc and hard to kill fast units dominated 7th
This is balanced by non elite armies now being better at controlling the objectives. Like in AoS, you now control the point if you have more models than the enemy near it.
If you have an IK on the point and i have 2 hormagaunst, i control the point.
Is that how obj secured or whatever it's called works in 8th I don't recall seeing that furthermore this still doesn't dolce the issue which made mobility huge in 7th missions or his kil points favored elite small armies. If I pull up a marlstrom card for an objective halfway across the board with no units close enough it still doesn't alleviate the issue of mobility. It's not a massive issue with match play but I can garauntee most tournaments will just create thier own mission primer
So reading that Only War mission... The way it's worded implies that there are two or more mission objectives, but I don't see any 'secondary objectives' listed. I also don't see why it's necessary to to award 6 VP's for Ancient Relic - it's an all or nothing mission objective if there are no secondary objectives.
Vorian wrote: Pretty sure power level is going to work exactly like the system in AoS, which is a simpler points system
Well the AoS simple point system seems somewhat balanced, a comparison of the power level system so far from what we have seen is very broken if done the AoS. 11 powerlevel for 10x kitted out rubric marines, 16 for that kitted out Leviathan Dreadnought. System broken already.
Do you know how well those Rubrics murder infantry?
They're not meant to take on a massive dreadnought. We also have nothing on weapon costs, which power level cares nothing about.
The point is that even tho they murder infantry, do you think they murder stuff better then the leviathan dread? He murders everything and barely cost more in power level.
Not really. His guns are powerful, but they're all relatively low number of shots but high damage. Damage doesn't carry over models, so those big guns are going to kill ~5 Marines really dead. Rubric Marines with Soulreaper Cannons or Warpflamers are going to kill more 1 wound models because they just have more shots, period. Damage 3 doesn't mean anything against infantry.
Don't tell Terminators and Primaris Marines that.
Also worth noting that as a big single unit, it's far, far more susceptible to multi-damage weapons than the Rubrics. A Meltagun kills, at most, one Rubric. A Meltagun can deal nearly half the Leviathan's wounds in one go, two can cripple it into near uselessness thanks to the damage chart.
Vorian wrote: Pretty sure power level is going to work exactly like the system in AoS, which is a simpler points system
Well the AoS simple point system seems somewhat balanced, a comparison of the power level system so far from what we have seen is very broken if done the AoS. 11 powerlevel for 10x kitted out rubric marines, 16 for that kitted out Leviathan Dreadnought. System broken already.
Do you know how well those Rubrics murder infantry?
They're not meant to take on a massive dreadnought. We also have nothing on weapon costs, which power level cares nothing about.
The point is that even tho they murder infantry, do you think they murder stuff better then the leviathan dread? He murders everything and barely cost more in power level.
He has 2 meltas and 2 flamers. That's it.
13 Rubrics are a bit less PL than the Leviathan.
Leviathan as stock can kill 3.5 marines at 8".
Rubrics can kill 5.8 at 12" and are killing marines way before the dreadnought does.
I would hardly call that a massive advantage after those shooting numbers.
Bring the right tool for the job.
Obviously the biggers guns make the dreadnought way better, but we have no idea what the points cost for those will be. Power Levels give NO consideration to selected options and they aren't meant to.
Do you only care about the damage output of things, that leviathan has numerous other advantages, toughness, mobility. And the point isn't stock versions, since we are talking about power level, you equip them however you want. The fact that you can give him the 2d3 mortal wounds weapon, or the D3 that gets extra D3 for every 5 in a unit. These are massively dangerous to many types of units.
gungo wrote: Sounds like match play still uses the book missions with very little change. Which imho is horrible for balance purposes. The current core book maerlstrom and war missions are horribly biased toward elite mobile armies such as eldar. Which is why nearly every tournament creates thier own multi tiered mission primer with several objectives. If the core missions are still simply get the objective, or kill point or relic there was a huge reason why jetbikes warp spiders etc and hard to kill fast units dominated 7th
This is balanced by non elite armies now being better at controlling the objectives. Like in AoS, you now control the point if you have more models than the enemy near it.
If you have an IK on the point and i have 2 hormagaunst, i control the point.
Is that how obj secured or whatever it's called works in 8th I don't recall seeing that furthermore this still doesn't dolce the issue which made mobility huge in 7th missions or his kil points favored elite small armies. If I pull up a marlstrom card for an objective halfway across the board with no units close enough it still doesn't alleviate the issue of mobility. It's not a massive issue with match play but I can garauntee most tournaments will just create thier own mission primer
If you haven't played AoS, you don't know that each mission has different ways to capture objectives. For instance, some of them are have more models than the opponent, which favors horde armies and makes small elite units not optimal. Another is only Heroes (Characters) can capture objectives. Still another is that you need at least 5 models and no enemy models to capture it.
If we see similar things to that, those 3 man Jetbike or SM Bike units aren't going to capture anything.
oni wrote: So reading that Only War mission... The way it's worded implies that there are two or more mission objectives, but I don't see any 'secondary objectives' listed. I also don't see why it's necessary to to award 6 VP's for Ancient Relic - it's an all or nothing mission objective if there are no secondary objectives.
True but Only War is essentially the basic mission for Open Play. Narrative and Matched play look to have missions with considerably more elements to them.
Do you only care about the damage output of things, that leviathan has numerous other advantages, toughness, mobility. And the point isn't stock versions, since we are talking about power level, you equip them however you want. The fact that you can give him the 2d3 mortal wounds weapon, or the D3 that gets extra D3 for every 5 in a unit. These are massively dangerous to many types of units.
8" move (at most, less once damaged) and the inability to get into vehicles is mobile to you? We have very different ideas of mobility.
The toughness seems like an advantage until something lays into it with multi-damage weaponry, which is less effective against units and more effective against things like the Leviathan. Again, Meltaguns and Lascannons can cut down that Leviathan in a turn, while they'll only be removing at most one Rubric at a time.
I get that you just want to complain about things being broken but it's clearly not.
Do you only care about the damage output of things, that leviathan has numerous other advantages, toughness, mobility. And the point isn't stock versions, since we are talking about power level, you equip them however you want. The fact that you can give him the 2d3 mortal wounds weapon, or the D3 that gets extra D3 for every 5 in a unit. These are massively dangerous to many types of units.
No, but the rubrics also carry a 4+ ward and have 13 wounds to the leviathans 14. They also can get a 2+ save against many things that want to hurt them.
And again, power level doesn't care about options. Points will. It is irrelevant to put the biggest gun on something and then compare PL.
From the sounds of it they've fixed all of Ork's major issues
- Only formerly AP4 and better ignores their armour now
- enhanced survivability if stacking Painboy and Mek
- More killy in combat
- Much much faster if taking a warboss
- Morale no longer an issue
- 4th Ed MOB RULE with no Ld10 cap.
I can safely day that the Orks sound better than they used to. Layered morale buffs, Mob Rule going back to letting you use the unit size for morale (and the stat isn't capped at ten anymore), and units being able to share morale sounds good. Da Jump sounds great and make Weirdboyz a lot more useful (and emulates their role in some recent video games like Space Marine).
Choppas basically getting the chainsword treatment isn't a shock, but three wound Manz is. Sure a Lascannon can still potentially turbo kill them, but we can see some things to help mitigate that and keep them alive.
Big choppas look reasonably uselful which is nice, especially in Match Play where you might want to take them for their lower points cost.
Basically the changes look good, and I it looks like Orks have potential to be a balanced army again.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Latro_ wrote: Nobs 3 wounds
LD is the size of the unit...
it helps, left a bit 'meh' by this one
Manz have three wounds. Nobz will probably have 2.
And the morale one is better since you can benefit from another unit nearby.
From the sounds of it they've fixed all of Ork's major issues
- Only formerly AP4 and better ignores their armour now
- enhanced survivability if stacking Painboy and Mek
- More killy in combat
- Much much faster if taking a warboss
- Morale no longer an issue
- 4th Ed MOB RULE with no Ld10 cap.
No painboy and mek is now worse its currently 5+ inv and 5+ fnp Now its 5+ inv and 6+ ignore the wound.
Looks like they have the same attacks in combat
No faster if taking a warboss, a warrghh in the current book lets you run and charge
Choppas basically getting the chainsword treatment isn't a shock, but three wound Manz is. Sure a Lascannon can still potentially turbo kill them, but we can see some things to help mitigate that and keep them alive.
That forces them to shoot a lascannon at a MANZ instead of a Battlewagon or M/G/Naut.
Which is awesome as it means a full sized 30 Boyz squad needs to lose 13 models in order to worry about the new morale (as killing 12 and rolling 6 would be 18, which kills none of the 18 remaining). Plus, even killing 13 or 15, your Warbosses and Nobs can keep da Boyz in line. As well. AND this all assumes that you wont have ANOTHER 30 boyz next to them to provide Ld30 anyway.
Its looking like this edition is the horde edition. The new objectives capturing as well seems to support this.
From the sounds of it they've fixed all of Ork's major issues
- Only formerly AP4 and better ignores their armour now
- enhanced survivability if stacking Painboy and Mek
- More killy in combat
- Much much faster if taking a warboss
- Morale no longer an issue
- 4th Ed MOB RULE with no Ld10 cap.
Some issues still exist
Mobility is huge as I've stated prior and unless thier base movement goes up boy squads are extremely slow the ability to move run and charge when near 6" of a warboss is actually worse than last ed which was the entire army. Look at greentide as an example it was already fearless and move run and charge each turn and had a perma 5+ fnp.
Truck boys are kinda counter intuitive to mob rules with a 12 model cap. I just don't see huge changes.
However nob bikers sound legit.
Manz look good but took a hit w manz missiles using trucks since they get wrecked on a 1. Maybe battlewagons or FW vehicles would be better.
(Bonus factoid - Ian Pickstock named the first 'Ancient' in print - Ancient Helveticus in Codex: Ultramarines - after the typeface he was using to write the character's background, itself derived from the Latin name of Switzerland.)
EDIT - if the factoid didn't give it away, I know that an Ancient is a standard bearer, I was sat next to Ian when he came up with the title.
Battleshock is more a concern for them in the late game, when they've taken casualties over a number of turns.
But between Mob Rule, Warboss Beatings*, and a Nobz Kickings they're going to be really difficult to shift. A disastrous roll can be mitigated to a maximum of three Boyz legging it, and there's a chance the Nob might keep at least one of them in the fight.
From the sounds of it they've fixed all of Ork's major issues
- Only formerly AP4 and better ignores their armour now
- enhanced survivability if stacking Painboy and Mek
- More killy in combat
- Much much faster if taking a warboss
- Morale no longer an issue
- 4th Ed MOB RULE with no Ld10 cap.
No painboy and mek is now worse its currently 5+ inv and 5+ fnp Now its 5+ inv and 6+ ignore the wound.
Looks like they have the same attacks in combat
No faster if taking a warboss, a warrghh in the current book lets you run and charge
LD is the best bit.
FNP is going to be much rarer, and has it been discussed yet if "FNP" rolls are made against the To Wound roll (so can potentially negate all D6Dmg?) or against individual wounds (so can save 2 wounds but the other 4 from the lascannon get through)?
Same attacks but combat rules are better and favour the Orks now, due to the Ld and larger units.
The army is also faster due to Da Jump. Not entirely reliable, but plonking 10" away, then advancing then charging with rerollable change range? Glorious
I'd heavily assume it's use -base- leadership of a nearby unit, ie standing near Nobz or a character buffs you even if you only have 5 boys left. Wait for the actual wording on that one.
FNP is going to be much rarer, and has it been discussed yet if "FNP" rolls are made against the To Wound roll (so can potentially negate all D6Dmg?) or against individual wounds (so can save 2 wounds but the other 4 from the lascannon get through)?
Was just saying, you said its enhanced... its not enhanced its worse than now for normal boyz as they typically dont get shot by high S weapons
Hmm. I don't think I like the new take on orks. All this talk of layered support sounds great in many games, but GW's never been very strong with synergy. It feels like it could very easily be bad on either end (not enough layering is pointless, or too much breaks things).
While the new FnP doesn't ignore as many wounds, it does negate Mortal Wounds (as far as I can tell) which is important for things like your Warboss.
That said, unless something has changed to how we organize things like Weirdboyz and Doks, we have a lot of HQs to try and cram into the list if you run Orks since they all provide synergy to the army,
I can see Ork players gravitating towards the larger Battleforged options list for the room to take all their HQ choices.
FNP is going to be much rarer, and has it been discussed yet if "FNP" rolls are made against the To Wound roll (so can potentially negate all D6Dmg?) or against individual wounds (so can save 2 wounds but the other 4 from the lascannon get through)?
Was just saying, you said its enhanced... its not enhanced its worse than now for normal boyz as they typically dont get shot by high S weapons
Now a painboy can cover up two mobs of 30. Maybe there's ability stacking? Or even army specific stratagems to boost your resilience.
spiralingcadaver wrote: Hmm. I don't think I like the new take on orks. All this talk of layered support sounds great in many games, but GW's never been very strong with synergy. It feels like it could very easily be bad on either end (not enough layering is pointless, or too much breaks things).
spiralingcadaver wrote: Hmm. I don't think I like the new take on orks. All this talk of layered support sounds great in many games, but GW's never been very strong with synergy. It feels like it could very easily be bad on either end (not enough layering is pointless, or too much breaks things).
It did work (so far) for Age of Sigmar.
That's good to know that they've had some degree of success there.
I am deeply saddened by the lack of news for Feral Ork (or anything about Klanz in general) in the teaser. I mean I appreciate the news, but nothing so far seems to suggest we're going to see factions make their way into the Ork army.
That said after reading Engine of Mork last night I might be feeling the tingle of a Waaagh forming....
spiralingcadaver wrote: Hmm. I don't think I like the new take on orks. All this talk of layered support sounds great in many games, but GW's never been very strong with synergy. It feels like it could very easily be bad on either end (not enough layering is pointless, or too much breaks things).
Read up on Bloodbound and Bonesplittaz for AoS. Really strong layered synergies that do extremely well in casual and competitive games.
FNP is going to be much rarer, and has it been discussed yet if "FNP" rolls are made against the To Wound roll (so can potentially negate all D6Dmg?) or against individual wounds (so can save 2 wounds but the other 4 from the lascannon get through)?
Was just saying, you said its enhanced... its not enhanced its worse than now for normal boyz as they typically dont get shot by high S weapons
Now a painboy can cover up two mobs of 30. Maybe there's ability stacking? Or even army specific stratagems to boost your resilience.
Also keep in mind that Boyz get their t-shirt saves against a broader range of weapons now, which means a lower FNP is not as big of a deal.
'Ancient' is indeed the title of the standard bearer, but considering that some of the primaris marines we have seen have service studs, I doubt all of them are fresh from the vat. They said it was possible to covert existing marines into primaris, so It would make sense if at least the command cadre were such converts.
Crimson wrote: 'Ancient' is indeed the title of the standard bearer, but considering that some of the primaris marines we have seen have service studs, I doubt all of them are fresh from the vat. They said it was possible to covert existing marines into primaris, so It would make sense if at least the command cadre were such converts.
When founding new chapters they take vets from existing ones and use them to lead the new chapter, right?
I could see the same thing being done for the Primaris guys.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I like that Big Choppas deal 2 damage standard. That's nice.
Yup. Good set of rolls means a dead Primaris with each attack.
And again, power level doesn't care about options. Points will. It is irrelevant to put the biggest gun on something and then compare PL.
They explicitly said that Power Level considers taking the most powerful options. Not doesn't care about options.
Yeaaa...No.
Power Levels are a great way to very quickly get a roughly balanced game organised and started, but they do not account for the various wargear options and upgrades a unit can have. For this level of granularity, you have points.
Those sound like some fun and orky ideas. Combined with no longer removing from the front and being able to advance and charge or teleport and charge(confirmed re-roll charge distance for orks).
Welcome changes that still feel fluffy for Orks while adding in some power
ClockworkZion wrote: Internet is loving to photoshop the new kids on the block in different colors and frankly I think it's actually helping make them look better than they do in the promotional shots:
I don't want to sound like I'm hating on the Ultramarines, I mean I LIKE the color blue, but something about it doesn't seem to work on the Primaris Marines like other colors do.
That photoshop with the black helmet is just awesome!
spiralingcadaver wrote: Hmm. I don't think I like the new take on orks. All this talk of layered support sounds great in many games, but GW's never been very strong with synergy. It feels like it could very easily be bad on either end (not enough layering is pointless, or too much breaks things).
It sounds very positional to me, which is perfect. If I make a mistake and move models out of synergy, I should pay for it. Leave it to the general to get it right.
From the sounds of it they've fixed all of Ork's major issues
- Only formerly AP4 and better ignores their armour now
- enhanced survivability if stacking Painboy and Mek
- More killy in combat
- Much much faster if taking a warboss
- Morale no longer an issue
- 4th Ed MOB RULE with no Ld10 cap.
No painboy and mek is now worse its currently 5+ inv and 5+ fnp Now its 5+ inv and 6+ ignore the wound.
Looks like they have the same attacks in combat
No faster if taking a warboss, a warrghh in the current book lets you run and charge
LD is the best bit.
but my favourite is the Warboss’s WAAAGH! ability, which allows friendly Ork units within 6″ to charge even if they advanced.
Nob warbikers are good now especially with big choppa change.
Truck boys took a hit with its small capacity and new mob rules large mob reliance.
Man missiles took a hit with trukks killing them on a 1 when it explodes.
People way to optomistic w these changes when one of our better lists last edition was already green tide which was already fearless, 5+ fnp on everyone and had the entire army move run and charge every turn.
And this list was still slow moving and cumbersome and was easily mowed down with 7th ed anti infantry weapons and 8th edition only seems to make those weapons much stronger.
Orks still lack mobility.
Orks don't have to worry about challenges but snipers will wreck the characters that improve orks.
I foresee nob bikers and manz in transports still being our best options and large blobs of boys are still to slow and truck boys still to vulnerable to morale and low durability.
Lord Kragan wrote: You know, hearing some comments i love how the chat has swung from 8th edition favoring MSU to favoring hordes!
Its been a running theme
"SHOOTING IS BROKEN"
"SHOOTING IS DEAD, MELEE IS GOING TO RULE"
"HORDES ARE TRASH MSU RULEZ"
"HORDES ARE THE T**S! MSU IS DEAD"
It's almost like we don't have the whole picture yet or something
Funny that people are complaining about the ork faction focus, they literally leaked way more then most of the others and it ALL helps improve them greatly.
People keep ignoring the changes to the core rules that also help, like no more exploding trucks, which can also BTW assault with all those gubbinz! The fact that a painboy now effects nearby units is huge. Again, lets complain that it went from 5+ FNP to 6+ while ignoring the fact he can confer it to any number of units in range, even if that's two mobs that big. Oh and lets totally leave out the wierdboy and his ability to auto take a power that is basically gate of infinity +1
JohnU wrote: If you're worried about explosions, start punting your MANZ around with Weirdboyz.
I agree, this and nob bikers seem like the best lists especially if zhardsnark gives bikes additional bonuses.
I'm just not sold on trukk boys or slow moving hordes.
We still need to see the bigger picture with dread mobs and FW vehicles or squiggoths.
gungo wrote: Nob warbikers are good now especially with big choppa change.
Truck boys took a hit with its small capacity and new mob rules large mob reliance.
Man missiles took a hit with trukks killing them on a 1 when it explodes.
People way to optomistic w these changes when one of our better lists last edition was already green tide which was already fearless, 5+ fnp on everyone and had the entire army move run and charge every turn.
And this list was still slow moving and cumbersome and was easily mowed down with 7th ed anti infantry weapons and 8th edition only seems to make those weapons much stronger.
Orks still lack mobility.
Orks don't have to worry about challenges but snipers will wreck the characters that improve orks.
I foresee nob bikers and manz in transports still being our best options and large blobs of boys are still to slow and truck boys still to vulnerable to morale and low durability.
The thing is people we worried about what mechanics would keep Orks in the fight so this calms some fears.
Also, which anti-infantry weapons got better? Bolters, HBs, Flamers, etc....they're all the same. You just have armor against most of them now.
I'm sure Orks will have their own version of a command squad. TruKK Boys can use a big mob's LD, which you can teleport (likely with a little difficulty).
And again, power level doesn't care about options. Points will. It is irrelevant to put the biggest gun on something and then compare PL.
They explicitly said that Power Level considers taking the most powerful options. Not doesn't care about options.
Yeaaa...No.
Power Levels are a great way to very quickly get a roughly balanced game organised and started, but they do not account for the various wargear options and upgrades a unit can have. For this level of granularity, you have points.
Q: So using power points you can equip whatever you want to your squads, how does that not stop imbalance?
A: That's right. The Power Level assumes you are taking a pretty souped up version of that unit. You should feel free to take anything you like on that unit if you are playing Power Levels.
gungo wrote: Nob warbikers are good now especially with big choppa change.
Truck boys took a hit with its small capacity and new mob rules large mob reliance.
Man missiles took a hit with trukks killing them on a 1 when it explodes.
People way to optomistic w these changes when one of our better lists last edition was already green tide which was already fearless, 5+ fnp on everyone and had the entire army move run and charge every turn.
And this list was still slow moving and cumbersome and was easily mowed down with 7th ed anti infantry weapons and 8th edition only seems to make those weapons much stronger.
Orks still lack mobility.
Orks don't have to worry about challenges but snipers will wreck the characters that improve orks.
I foresee nob bikers and manz in transports still being our best options and large blobs of boys are still to slow and truck boys still to vulnerable to morale and low durability.
LMAO, seriously think about a strategy before claiming things are lack luster. Your truck boyz have NUMEROUS ways around moral just from that tiny leak. A nearby warboss is one fix, another is having a bigger mob in a battle wagon to get mid field to confer its higher LD OR the biggest one where you simply take a wierd boy and teleport a bubble of leadership 30 wherever you want it.
Then theres is the part where you haven't seen 99% of the ork rules yet
Automatically Appended Next Post:
A Town Called Malus wrote: I think this edition is favouring multiple small hordes with strong shooting in close combat
I think this edition favors nothing and all things can be made viable, yet people from some reason just like every aspect of life, feel the need to fit things into specific boxes.
gungo wrote: Nob warbikers are good now especially with big choppa change.
Truck boys took a hit with its small capacity and new mob rules large mob reliance.
Man missiles took a hit with trukks killing them on a 1 when it explodes.
People way to optomistic w these changes when one of our better lists last edition was already green tide which was already fearless, 5+ fnp on everyone and had the entire army move run and charge every turn.
And this list was still slow moving and cumbersome and was easily mowed down with 7th ed anti infantry weapons and 8th edition only seems to make those weapons much stronger.
Orks still lack mobility.
Orks don't have to worry about challenges but snipers will wreck the characters that improve orks.
I foresee nob bikers and manz in transports still being our best options and large blobs of boys are still to slow and truck boys still to vulnerable to morale and low durability.
The thing is people we worried about what mechanics would keep Orks in the fight so this calms some fears.
Also, which anti-infantry weapons got better? Bolters, HBs, Flamers, etc....they're all the same. You just have armor against most of them now.
I'm sure Orks will have their own version of a command squad. TruKK Boys can use a big mob's LD, which you can teleport (likely with a little difficulty).
the shots on everything especially anti infantry went up by a lot. Flamers removal of templates wasn't a big issue since they hit more reliably. I guess you don't need to spread your greentide out 2in each. I'm not saying orks are dead. We obviously don't have the full picture but it's not all rose covered glasses here.
Indeed, it really feels like they are focusing almost anything viable in some way while also keeping to the fluff. I really appreciate the direction they are taking and a lot of things make the game more fun to play.
Now the kitouts on my Deathwatch actually might make sense haha. Worth putting a stormshield or two in.
We have no idea on points yet. I am betting that a lot of the more powerful upgrades will be more expensive, things like power claws and power fists, while regular power weapons or basic upgrades (like the big choppa) will be more common and cheaper. I expect that basic troops will be relatively cheap while heavy and special weapons are going to be very expensive(as it should be IMO). As we saw with the multi-melta it was 27 points compared to the 10 it was before. I think a lot of Eldar players are going to be surprised when they see how much their specialist units are going to cost going forward since they have the upgrades built into their profiles.
Orks have their leadership problems addressed, they have improved mobility/ability to charge built into their rules, and they get to pick casualties so no more removing from the front. Challenges are out initiative is out. They are more likely to get a save
I am not saying they are going to dominate but it seems like a lot of the issues they were dealing with have been addressed.
JohnU wrote: If you're worried about explosions, start punting your MANZ around with Weirdboyz.
I agree, this and nob bikers seem like the best lists especially if zhardsnark gives bikes additional bonuses.
I'm just not sold on trukk boys or slow moving hordes.
We still need to see the bigger picture with dread mobs and FW vehicles or squiggoths.
Again you fail to see the bonuses inherent simply by the core rules. Large mobz didn't work because you removed casualties from the front and because mob rule was terribler and unreliable. THEN when you made it, your claw was in a challenge and usually died and then you struck last. ALL the above changed. 3 or more massive mobs can easily benefit from character buffs and need not worry about losing said buffs by being killed out of range.
Swinging first when you charge
No more unwieldy weapons
remove casualties from the rear (hell or the front to deny charges to yourself)
These were already helping before this leak, now after you got
4 ways to mitigate battleshock:
1.warboss
2.Nobz
3.Nearby mob
4. your own unit size
Character buffs:
1.Waaagh isn't limited to once per battle or after turn 1
2.Mad doc can help ANY number of units in range
3. Player choice casualty removal means you always get the buffs until you don't want them
4. Wierdboy has the best psychic power we have seen yet that also happens to be the best redeployment ability
gungo wrote: Nob warbikers are good now especially with big choppa change.
Truck boys took a hit with its small capacity and new mob rules large mob reliance.
Man missiles took a hit with trukks killing them on a 1 when it explodes.
People way to optomistic w these changes when one of our better lists last edition was already green tide which was already fearless, 5+ fnp on everyone and had the entire army move run and charge every turn.
And this list was still slow moving and cumbersome and was easily mowed down with 7th ed anti infantry weapons and 8th edition only seems to make those weapons much stronger.
Orks still lack mobility.
Orks don't have to worry about challenges but snipers will wreck the characters that improve orks.
I foresee nob bikers and manz in transports still being our best options and large blobs of boys are still to slow and truck boys still to vulnerable to morale and low durability.
LMAO, seriously think about a strategy before claiming things are lack luster. Your truck boyz have NUMEROUS ways around moral just from that tiny leak. A nearby warboss is one fix, another is having a bigger mob in a battle wagon to get mid field to confer its higher LD OR the biggest one where you simply take a wierd boy and teleport a bubble of leadership 30 wherever you want it.
Then theres is the part where you haven't seen 99% of the ork rules yet
Automatically Appended Next Post:
A Town Called Malus wrote: I think this edition is favouring multiple small hordes with strong shooting in close combat
I think this edition favors nothing and all things can be made viable, yet people from some reason just like every aspect of life, feel the need to fit things into specific boxes.
first units inside transports don't confer special rules unless this changes this edition... second how many trucks can you fit within 6in of a warboss. Third I already stated we don't have all the rules but last edition I was already playing a fearless blob of orks with 5+ fnp and waaaagh every turn that allows it to move run charge each turn with rerolls on run/charge and it was still to slow and susceptible to anti infantry. We don't know the full rules but what I'm telling you are still legit issues. Orks will obviously have some type of list that's usable bikes and manz with some reliable transport look decent as does woerdboys depending how he psychic phase turns out.
Is it just me or does that Orc Faction Focus just sound like they are telling us 7th ed rules and acting like they are new? Literally, any changes are because of general rule changes, not faction changes. Again, I feel orks are left out...
Q: So using power points you can equip whatever you want to your squads, how does that not stop imbalance?
A: That's right. The Power Level assumes you are taking a pretty souped up version of that unit. You should feel free to take anything you like on that unit if you are playing Power Levels.
Oh yea, how do you figure they did a power level for the dreadnought then? Did they take each gun and average the effect?
I think we know, which piece of information we can trust more.
gungo wrote: Nob warbikers are good now especially with big choppa change.
Truck boys took a hit with its small capacity and new mob rules large mob reliance.
Man missiles took a hit with trukks killing them on a 1 when it explodes.
People way to optomistic w these changes when one of our better lists last edition was already green tide which was already fearless, 5+ fnp on everyone and had the entire army move run and charge every turn.
And this list was still slow moving and cumbersome and was easily mowed down with 7th ed anti infantry weapons and 8th edition only seems to make those weapons much stronger.
Orks still lack mobility.
Orks don't have to worry about challenges but snipers will wreck the characters that improve orks.
I foresee nob bikers and manz in transports still being our best options and large blobs of boys are still to slow and truck boys still to vulnerable to morale and low durability.
LMAO, seriously think about a strategy before claiming things are lack luster. Your truck boyz have NUMEROUS ways around moral just from that tiny leak. A nearby warboss is one fix, another is having a bigger mob in a battle wagon to get mid field to confer its higher LD OR the biggest one where you simply take a wierd boy and teleport a bubble of leadership 30 wherever you want it.
Then theres is the part where you haven't seen 99% of the ork rules yet
Automatically Appended Next Post:
A Town Called Malus wrote: I think this edition is favouring multiple small hordes with strong shooting in close combat
I think this edition favors nothing and all things can be made viable, yet people from some reason just like every aspect of life, feel the need to fit things into specific boxes.
first units inside transports don't confer special rules unless this changes this edition... second how many trucks can you fit within 6in of a warboss. Third I already stated we don't have all the rules but last edition I was already playing a fearless blob of orks with 5+ fnp and waaaagh every turn that allows it to move run charge each turn with rerolls on run/charge and it was still to slow and susceptible to anti infantry. We don't know the full rules but what I'm telling you are still legit issues. Orks will obviously have some type of list that's usable bikes and manz with some reliable transport look decent as does woerdboys depending how he psychic phase turns out.
No they are not legit issues, you seem to have wanted to play a 7th edition formation in 8th with nothing but additional benefits. I hate to break it to you but every formation is gone and you can't pretend like those old perks were the standard. I am not going to play hypothetical games with your demands here either, I could tell you any number of ways to pack 10 trucks into range of a WB and none would matter in a vacuum that you get to recreate over and over.
I listed the 4 new options to fix LD above, along with the other perks. If you can't make your army work FAIRLY in the bigger picture with those then I'm afraid we won't see eye to eye.
JohnU wrote: If you're worried about explosions, start punting your MANZ around with Weirdboyz.
I agree, this and nob bikers seem like the best lists especially if zhardsnark gives bikes additional bonuses.
I'm just not sold on trukk boys or slow moving hordes.
We still need to see the bigger picture with dread mobs and FW vehicles or squiggoths.
Again you fail to see the bonuses inherent simply by the core rules. Large mobz didn't work because you removed casualties from the front and because mob rule was terribler and unreliable. THEN when you made it, your claw was in a challenge and usually died and then you struck last. ALL the above changed. 3 or more massive mobs can easily benefit from character buffs and need not worry about losing said buffs by being killed out of range.
Swinging first when you charge
No more unwieldy weapons
remove casualties from the rear (hell or the front to deny charges to yourself)
These were already helping before this leak, now after you got
4 ways to mitigate battleshock:
1.warboss
2.Nobz
3.Nearby mob
4. your own unit size
Character buffs:
1.Waaagh isn't limited to once per battle or after turn 1
2.Mad doc can help ANY number of units in range
3. Player choice casualty removal means you always get the buffs until you don't want them
4. Wierdboy has the best psychic power we have seen yet that also happens to be the best redeployment ability
As I've said before when playing the greentide last ed
1) waagh was not limited once a turn
2) the entire army was already 5+ fnp 3) the entire mob was already fearless
4) issues with mobs dying from the front had no real problems with the amount of chaff units protecting klaws
5) challenges weren't much of a problem with the amount of redundancy with klaw nobs
And yet green tide was to slow moving and cumbersome and easily dealt with high anti infantry.
We don't have the entire picture but stop acting like every unit choice is going to be competitive and balanced that doesn't happen in AoS and it's not happening in 8th 40k.
lolman1c wrote: Is it just me or does that Orc Faction Focus just sound like they are telling us 7th ed rules and acting like they are new? Literally, any changes are because of general rule changes, not faction changes. Again, I feel orks are left out...
Sure, ignore that garbage fire chaos focus that not even Trump could improve with greatness, or that hill of trash dark eldar focus where they told us incubi have improved weapons despite going from ap2 to rend -3 and that wyches are durable because of their 4+ dodge.... oh wait a minute, it's almost as if this review leaked more info then combining all of the early ones.
JohnU wrote: If you're worried about explosions, start punting your MANZ around with Weirdboyz.
I agree, this and nob bikers seem like the best lists especially if zhardsnark gives bikes additional bonuses.
I'm just not sold on trukk boys or slow moving hordes.
We still need to see the bigger picture with dread mobs and FW vehicles or squiggoths.
Again you fail to see the bonuses inherent simply by the core rules. Large mobz didn't work because you removed casualties from the front and because mob rule was terribler and unreliable. THEN when you made it, your claw was in a challenge and usually died and then you struck last. ALL the above changed. 3 or more massive mobs can easily benefit from character buffs and need not worry about losing said buffs by being killed out of range.
Swinging first when you charge
No more unwieldy weapons
remove casualties from the rear (hell or the front to deny charges to yourself)
These were already helping before this leak, now after you got
4 ways to mitigate battleshock:
1.warboss
2.Nobz
3.Nearby mob
4. your own unit size
Character buffs:
1.Waaagh isn't limited to once per battle or after turn 1
2.Mad doc can help ANY number of units in range
3. Player choice casualty removal means you always get the buffs until you don't want them
4. Wierdboy has the best psychic power we have seen yet that also happens to be the best redeployment ability
As I've said before when playing the greentide last ed
1) waagh was not limited once a turn
2) the entire army was already 5+ fnp 3) the entire mob was already fearless
4) issues with mobs dying from the front had no real problems with the amount of chaff units protecting klaws
5) challenges weren't much of a problem with the amount of redundancy with klaw nobs
And yet green tide was to slow moving and cumbersome and easily dealt with high anti infantry.
We don't have the entire picture but stop acting like every unit choice is going to be competitive and balanced that doesn't happen in AoS and it's not happening in 8th 40k.
Yea, and I'll repeat myself, your cherry picking a formation that was not balanced and expecting to maintain that status PLUS get new things. Not gonna happen. Or do you think it's fair for Riptide wing players to complain when they don't get Hail fire and rerolls to Nova charging standard?
NONE of the formations from 7th exist in 8th, they said that already.
Whilst I don't think the captain can really be salvaged without extensive repositioning, I think that lowering the sword arm and turning the head too look at different direction would be clear improvements.
lolman1c wrote: Is it just me or does that Orc Faction Focus just sound like they are telling us 7th ed rules and acting like they are new? Literally, any changes are because of general rule changes, not faction changes. Again, I feel orks are left out...
Did you read the article? The morale rules are VERY different from the terrible 7th edition rules, with a return to 4th edition's mob rule and other useful morale buffs. That is a BIG deal, imo.
Also, Big Choppas that are actually useful, Aura buffs rather than single unit buffs and every turn WAAAAGH! without having to take a very limiting formation.
I'm stoked by this Faction Focus and the amount of positive info thrown our way.
JohnU wrote: If you're worried about explosions, start punting your MANZ around with Weirdboyz.
I agree, this and nob bikers seem like the best lists especially if zhardsnark gives bikes additional bonuses.
I'm just not sold on trukk boys or slow moving hordes.
We still need to see the bigger picture with dread mobs and FW vehicles or squiggoths.
Again you fail to see the bonuses inherent simply by the core rules. Large mobz didn't work because you removed casualties from the front and because mob rule was terribler and unreliable. THEN when you made it, your claw was in a challenge and usually died and then you struck last. ALL the above changed. 3 or more massive mobs can easily benefit from character buffs and need not worry about losing said buffs by being killed out of range.
Swinging first when you charge
No more unwieldy weapons
remove casualties from the rear (hell or the front to deny charges to yourself)
These were already helping before this leak, now after you got
4 ways to mitigate battleshock:
1.warboss
2.Nobz
3.Nearby mob
4. your own unit size
Character buffs:
1.Waaagh isn't limited to once per battle or after turn 1
2.Mad doc can help ANY number of units in range
3. Player choice casualty removal means you always get the buffs until you don't want them
4. Wierdboy has the best psychic power we have seen yet that also happens to be the best redeployment ability
As I've said before when playing the greentide last ed
1) waagh was not limited once a turn
2) the entire army was already 5+ fnp 3) the entire mob was already fearless
4) issues with mobs dying from the front had no real problems with the amount of chaff units protecting klaws
5) challenges weren't much of a problem with the amount of redundancy with klaw nobs
And yet green tide was to slow moving and cumbersome and easily dealt with high anti infantry.
We don't have the entire picture but stop acting like every unit choice is going to be competitive and balanced that doesn't happen in AoS and it's not happening in 8th 40k.
In my experience that's not true. In AoS tournaments i see a lot of lists that are packed full of underused units, and as long as they don't meet the AAA lists that are going to get stomped by the GHB2, they do quite fine. As long as you apply a bit of common sense during list building, in AoS you can play all units, at least for the factions i have played with and against.
gungo wrote: Nob warbikers are good now especially with big choppa change.
Truck boys took a hit with its small capacity and new mob rules large mob reliance.
Man missiles took a hit with trukks killing them on a 1 when it explodes.
People way to optomistic w these changes when one of our better lists last edition was already green tide which was already fearless, 5+ fnp on everyone and had the entire army move run and charge every turn.
And this list was still slow moving and cumbersome and was easily mowed down with 7th ed anti infantry weapons and 8th edition only seems to make those weapons much stronger.
Orks still lack mobility.
Orks don't have to worry about challenges but snipers will wreck the characters that improve orks.
I foresee nob bikers and manz in transports still being our best options and large blobs of boys are still to slow and truck boys still to vulnerable to morale and low durability.
LMAO, seriously think about a strategy before claiming things are lack luster. Your truck boyz have NUMEROUS ways around moral just from that tiny leak. A nearby warboss is one fix, another is having a bigger mob in a battle wagon to get mid field to confer its higher LD OR the biggest one where you simply take a wierd boy and teleport a bubble of leadership 30 wherever you want it.
Then theres is the part where you haven't seen 99% of the ork rules yet
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A Town Called Malus wrote: I think this edition is favouring multiple small hordes with strong shooting in close combat
I think this edition favors nothing and all things can be made viable, yet people from some reason just like every aspect of life, feel the need to fit things into specific boxes.
first units inside transports don't confer special rules unless this changes this edition... second how many trucks can you fit within 6in of a warboss. Third I already stated we don't have all the rules but last edition I was already playing a fearless blob of orks with 5+ fnp and waaaagh every turn that allows it to move run charge each turn with rerolls on run/charge and it was still to slow and susceptible to anti infantry. We don't know the full rules but what I'm telling you are still legit issues. Orks will obviously have some type of list that's usable bikes and manz with some reliable transport look decent as does woerdboys depending how he psychic phase turns out.
No they are not legit issues, you seem to have wanted to play a 7th edition formation in 8th with nothing but additional benefits. I hate to break it to you but every formation is gone and you can't pretend like those old perks were the standard. I am not going to play hypothetical games with your demands here either, I could tell you any number of ways to pack 10 trucks into range of a WB and none would matter in a vacuum that you get to recreate over and over.
I listed the 4 new options to fix LD above, along with the other perks. If you can't make your army work FAIRLY in the bigger picture with those then I'm afraid we won't see eye to eye.
wtf are you talking about I'm not asking to play the same formation I'm saying all the bs your crying about was already not an issue last edition in this specific formation and there were still problems that this preview doesn't address with orks. Namely large mobs of boys while optimal for morale are slow as dirt even with rerolls to charge and move run and charge each turn and characters in transports do not confer special rules, are seperate units that are easier to snipe and are just as slow.... making everything very slow moving.
I am just loving how each piece of information changes how the 'Meta' will change. I can't wait for the next thing to come out and change it once more.
On the Balance of Power Level:It comes down to a number of things. 1] What is your Meta Like: If it is all about Putting the 'Best' Weapons out there, then there will be little or no change. Everyone will just keep doing the same thing. 2] If you have a smaller group that plays well with each other, then there won't be an issue.
3] If you as dealing with WAAC and Adam Henry's (Ask your cop buddy), then that will not change no mater what you do.
4] It will force to to...interact with the other player before the game, I know this can be scary, but remember they are afraid of you as much as you are afraid of them.
5] If you are Hyper-Competitive, then maybe Power Level is not for you and stick with Matched play. I understand that and will not hold it against you as long as you are not a jerk to me about liking Narrative play and Open Play.
For myself I love the idea of the Power Levels and my group does to for a number of factors that might not be relevant to your area, but it is to us.
1] We don't do a lot of magnet work so if my Space Wolf has a Frost Blade and a Bolt Pistol today he will have one next game.
2] We are all hard WYSIWYG on ourselves, what this means is if I build my Land Speeders with a Heavy Bolter and Missile Launchers I am not going to say 'This game they are all armed with Multi-Meltas' unless it is to experiment and I talk to the other before the game about it.
3] We all know what each other has and is building so there is no Surprise Units/Death Stars.
4] We all tend to field what we want and enjoy playing rather than 'The Best'. Another way to put it, we use the Rule of Cool 90% of the time.
So from what I have been seeing 8th Edition/New Warhammer (Whatever you want to call it) it looks to be a fast paced fun game to kill a few hours over with out Dr. Pepper and Cheezy Poofs.
As I've said before when playing the greentide last ed
1) waagh was not limited once a turn
2) the entire army was already 5+ fnp 3) the entire mob was already fearless
4) issues with mobs dying from the front had no real problems with the amount of chaff units protecting klaws
5) challenges weren't much of a problem with the amount of redundancy with klaw nobs
And yet green tide was to slow moving and cumbersome and easily dealt with high anti infantry.
We don't have the entire picture but stop acting like every unit choice is going to be competitive and balanced that doesn't happen in AoS and it's not happening in 8th 40k.
You act like greentide was the best way to play orks last edition. Even with ALL those buffs that you listed, it was still garbage; me and any other ork players in my area certainly tried it, but not more than once. It was a terrible gimmick and unless you were playing the relic you were going to lose every game (and on the relic it depended entirely on getting lucky with some run rolls).
We now have all the buffs you mentioned. Are allowed to use our saves, get to swing first, don't have to eat leadership effects, have bubble effects for buffs, ACTUAL unit synergy via stacking buffs. Are faster, get to swing with the full weight of numbers.... And you dont have to commit your entire collection to a single unit to make it happen.
so far the only thing I think will be hard, is keeping your turnkey pieces safe from snipers, since orks lack any kind of unit in the vein of honor guard, or hive guard.... But hell, even if the KFF and pain boy get poked out of the unit early oh, it seems like the rest of the table is fearsom as feth.
gungo wrote: Nob warbikers are good now especially with big choppa change.
Truck boys took a hit with its small capacity and new mob rules large mob reliance.
Man missiles took a hit with trukks killing them on a 1 when it explodes.
People way to optomistic w these changes when one of our better lists last edition was already green tide which was already fearless, 5+ fnp on everyone and had the entire army move run and charge every turn.
And this list was still slow moving and cumbersome and was easily mowed down with 7th ed anti infantry weapons and 8th edition only seems to make those weapons much stronger.
Orks still lack mobility.
Orks don't have to worry about challenges but snipers will wreck the characters that improve orks.
I foresee nob bikers and manz in transports still being our best options and large blobs of boys are still to slow and truck boys still to vulnerable to morale and low durability.
LMAO, seriously think about a strategy before claiming things are lack luster. Your truck boyz have NUMEROUS ways around moral just from that tiny leak. A nearby warboss is one fix, another is having a bigger mob in a battle wagon to get mid field to confer its higher LD OR the biggest one where you simply take a wierd boy and teleport a bubble of leadership 30 wherever you want it.
Then theres is the part where you haven't seen 99% of the ork rules yet
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A Town Called Malus wrote: I think this edition is favouring multiple small hordes with strong shooting in close combat
I think this edition favors nothing and all things can be made viable, yet people from some reason just like every aspect of life, feel the need to fit things into specific boxes.
first units inside transports don't confer special rules unless this changes this edition... second how many trucks can you fit within 6in of a warboss. Third I already stated we don't have all the rules but last edition I was already playing a fearless blob of orks with 5+ fnp and waaaagh every turn that allows it to move run charge each turn with rerolls on run/charge and it was still to slow and susceptible to anti infantry. We don't know the full rules but what I'm telling you are still legit issues. Orks will obviously have some type of list that's usable bikes and manz with some reliable transport look decent as does woerdboys depending how he psychic phase turns out.
No they are not legit issues, you seem to have wanted to play a 7th edition formation in 8th with nothing but additional benefits. I hate to break it to you but every formation is gone and you can't pretend like those old perks were the standard. I am not going to play hypothetical games with your demands here either, I could tell you any number of ways to pack 10 trucks into range of a WB and none would matter in a vacuum that you get to recreate over and over.
I listed the 4 new options to fix LD above, along with the other perks. If you can't make your army work FAIRLY in the bigger picture with those then I'm afraid we won't see eye to eye.
wtf are you talking about I'm not asking to play the same formation I'm saying all the bs your crying about was already not an issue last edition in this specific formation and there were still problems that this preview doesn't address with orks. Namely large mobs of boys while optimal for morale are slow as dirt even with rerolls to charge and move run and charge each turn and characters in transports do not confer special rules, are seperate units that are easier to snipe and are just as slow.... making everything very slow moving.
You see, now your being petulant and rude. I was trying to reasure your hysteria, not my own. But if your going to lower the discussion I'll leave you to it.
As I've said before when playing the greentide last ed
1) waagh was not limited once a turn
2) the entire army was already 5+ fnp 3) the entire mob was already fearless
4) issues with mobs dying from the front had no real problems with the amount of chaff units protecting klaws
5) challenges weren't much of a problem with the amount of redundancy with klaw nobs
And yet green tide was to slow moving and cumbersome and easily dealt with high anti infantry.
We don't have the entire picture but stop acting like every unit choice is going to be competitive and balanced that doesn't happen in AoS and it's not happening in 8th 40k.
You act like greentide was the best way to play orks last edition. Even with ALL those buffs that you listed, it was still garbage; me and any other ork players in my area certainly tried it, but not more than once. It was a terrible gimmick and unless you were playing the relic you were going to lose every game (and on the relic it depended entirely on getting lucky with some run rolls).
We now have all the buffs you mentioned. Are allowed to use our saves, get to swing first, don't have to eat leadership effects, have bubble effects for buffs, ACTUAL unit synergy via stacking buffs. Are faster, get to swing with the full weight of numbers.... And you dont have to commit your entire collection to a single unit to make it happen.
so far the only thing I think will be hard, is keeping your turnkey pieces safe from snipers, since orks lack any kind of unit in the vein of honor guard, or hive guard.... But hell, even if the KFF and pain boy get poked out of the unit early oh, it seems like the rest of the table is fearsom as feth.
that's my point greentide or any large units of boys with similar buffs are still slow and cumbersome.
Truck boys are faster but are counter to large boy morale bonus and reliant on nobs that are only ok or piling on top of the warboss who can't confer rules from inside a transport and is a slow moving solo unit who is prone to sniping.
Q: So using power points you can equip whatever you want to your squads, how does that not stop imbalance?
A: That's right. The Power Level assumes you are taking a pretty souped up version of that unit. You should feel free to take anything you like on that unit if you are playing Power Levels.
Oh yea, how do you figure they did a power level for the dreadnought then? Did they take each gun and average the effect?
I think we know, which piece of information we can trust more.
But, let's play that game!
Still think it's based around best equipment?
There is MUCH more to a unit than how many marines its weapons can kill. Do the same calculation using tau markerlights and see how many dead marines you have after firing 10-15 of those.
The warpflamers are high hit count, single damage, low range weapons, the butcher canon is a long range 2 damage high strength beast of a gun, locked onto a high toughness model with a great save and a ton of wounds. Dealing up to 6 unsaved wounds* to a HLD doesn't do a thing to impact its effectiveness while doing the same to a group of five rubrics wipes them out completely.
Mathhammer is great! It helps a lot, but just as logic is the beginning of wisdom, not the end, proper mathhammer merely forms the basis for understanding balance in Warhammer.
Wow, the Ork Weirdboy is going to be a must have! It's like 40k's Sayl the Faithless haha. I wonder if Matched Play will limit spells to each being castable only once a turn. Otherwise the Ork player will be teleporting everything in!
Okay, so from here on I'm skipping duplicate of the same questions and "My Faction Next!" posts for the sake of brevity.
Missions Q: That stratagem for discarding cards and new objectives is interesting as we have a house rule that lets us discard the card if it is completely impossible to complete with the starting armies e.g. Scout the skies when the opponent has no flyers or Destroying a building/fortification when there are none.
A: That's a very popular house rule in a number of gaming groups, Charles. But now, there is a stratagem for those folks who don't use that house rule as standard.
Q: This looks awesome!
Just a question, Warhammer 40,000-
It says: "This mission will be available as part of the free rules in the Warhammer 40,000 Battle Primer and, of course, in the new book itself. "
Am I reading into it too much, or will there be some rules that are not free. ie: Core vs Advanced?
A: Hey [REDACTED] - the core rules, as in, how you move, shoot fight and the basic mission will be free to download online.
Q: Keeping the same cards or do we need to buy new ones?
A: Hey [REDACTED] - well, the article says "The objective deck has been re-done from the ground up while keeping the feel of that type of game, with its constantly changing and updated orders."
That means the current cards are no longer compatible.
Q: Can I ask something pretty important. Are we still taking turns as per current 40k or the role off at the end of game turns like aos. May I point out if its the second of these im gonna cry... alot
A: Not sure we have made any mention of any roll off at the start of the turn in any of the articles yet..
Q: Unrelated question. Will the existence of primaris marines mean we won't be seeing any more new models for old marines?
A: We haven't got any news about releases that we haven't revealed yet, Mike. Keep your eyes on this page for all the latest news when we get it.
Q: Are the points for match play in the index books?
A: Yes indeed they are.
ORK FACTION FOCUS WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH Q: You didn't answer the single most important thing all Ork's wanted to know!
DO RED ONEZ GO FASTA ???
A: OF COURSE DEY DO! BUT ONLY IF YOU BELIEVE 'ARD ENOUGH!
Q: My warboss highly approoves new thingies...
Warhammer 40,000 Will MEgaBosses be on 60mm bases like in AoS ?
A: No word on any new models right now... but watch this space for all da latest when we get it!
Q: Any confirmation on whether nobz bases will change in the new edition?
A: Not that we know of? Watch dis space for all da latest when we get it!
Q: So pumped for this!? Is it worth taking Ghaz now!?
A: He is so, so good!
Crimson wrote: Whilst I don't think the captain can really be salvaged without extensive repositioning, I think that lowering the sword arm and turning the head too look at different direction would be clear improvements.
Spoiler:
Hand is posed wrong for a lowered position unless you want his sword pointing at the ground.
That said, the actual kits we should be getting later will help a lot.
Ork article was fine. Not very exciting. I was hoping that they'd show us the Flash Gitz data sheet or something.
What's the most interesting thing still to come? Space Marine focus I guess... I feel like we must be running out of things that they can drip-feed at this stage.
gungo wrote: that's my point greentide or any large units of boys with similar buffs are still slow and cumbersome.
You've seen their movement stat? Further we can now reliably teleport a 30 man blob to ANYWHERE on the table.... Thats faster than any infantry unit has EVER been in warhammer. It beats eldar jetbikes.
Truckboys are faster but are counter to large boy morale bonus and reliant on nobs that are only ok
again, you've seen the stats for nobs to know that they are just 'okay'?
or piling on top of the warboss who can't confer rules from inside a transport and is a slow moving solo unit who is prone to sniping.
who told you that warbosses can't confer from inside of transports?
Stop holding 7th ed in mind when you evaluate these rules... It may hurt your sensibilities but 7th ed does not exist anymore in about 2 weeks.
Special characters being untouchable inside of a unit was a VERY bad thing for the game overall, and for orks especially. Hiding models wasn't particularly effective because they all wanted to get into CC and in last edition that mean they were just gonna be chaff challenged out when they finally had an opportunity to matter.
Yes, having to deal with sniping is going to be hard, but its going to be hard for EVERYONE and further orks seem to have a good amount of their synergy spread around. Some depends on bosses, others on meks, others on painboys, others on large mobs. Worried about your boss? Give him mega armor, or a warbike. Same for meks. Maybe grot orderlies will allow you to auto pass FNP tests, and you can use that to shrug off sniper hits that land on key pieces.
For the love of mork man, breathe. You're going to drown in salt if you keep this up.
Charles Rampant wrote: Ork article was fine. Not very exciting. I was hoping that they'd show us the Flash Gitz data sheet or something.
What's the most interesting thing still to come? Space Marine focus I guess... I feel like we must be running out of things that they can drip-feed at this stage.
Bated breath for the Sister of Battle and Inquisition focus myself
Be good if they could show the stats on the real problem units - Ripties, Wraith Knights and Jetbikes - are they better, same or worse.
Pretty sure they have been moving away from models in transports having an impact on units outside of transports in both 7th ed and for some reason I thought they said it would continue in this edition that while in a transport they are effectively off the table.
Might just be mis-remembering.
Either way who knows, maybe the Big ork Walkers might get a force field that will apply to vehicles? MAybe they get upgrades that make them more durable. There are so many things that are still possible.
FNP is going to be much rarer, and has it been discussed yet if "FNP" rolls are made against the To Wound roll (so can potentially negate all D6Dmg?) or against individual wounds (so can save 2 wounds but the other 4 from the lascannon get through)?
Was just saying, you said its enhanced... its not enhanced its worse than now for normal boyz as they typically dont get shot by high S weapons
The plus side to the 6+ FNP is that it can now apply to multiple nearby units. IMO, the way these rules are shaping up it seems like the best way to run orks would be a single large mob, then several smaller units all benefitting from the aura buffs and providing some specialist power to the generalist boyz.
Charles Rampant wrote: Ork article was fine. Not very exciting. I was hoping that they'd show us the Flash Gitz data sheet or something.
What's the most interesting thing still to come? Space Marine focus I guess... I feel like we must be running out of things that they can drip-feed at this stage.
The sisters/inquisition/agents of imperium faction focus is all Im waiting for now
Charles Rampant wrote: Ork article was fine. Not very exciting. I was hoping that they'd show us the Flash Gitz data sheet or something.
What's the most interesting thing still to come? Space Marine focus I guess... I feel like we must be running out of things that they can drip-feed at this stage.
Space Marine, Necron, Imperial Agent, AdMech and the best of all the Primaris Space Marine.
Charles Rampant wrote: Ork article was fine. Not very exciting. I was hoping that they'd show us the Flash Gitz data sheet or something.
What's the most interesting thing still to come? Space Marine focus I guess... I feel like we must be running out of things that they can drip-feed at this stage.
Space Marine, Necron, Imperial Agent, AdMech and the best of all the Primaris Space Marine.
Charles Rampant wrote: Ork article was fine. Not very exciting. I was hoping that they'd show us the Flash Gitz data sheet or something.
What's the most interesting thing still to come? Space Marine focus I guess... I feel like we must be running out of things that they can drip-feed at this stage.
Space Marine, Necron, Imperial Agent, AdMech and the best of all the Primaris Space Marine.
They'll be looking at Primaris tomorrow. Didn't sound like a full faction-focus though.
There is MUCH more to a unit than how many marines its weapons can kill. Do the same calculation using tau markerlights and see how many dead marines you have after firing 10-15 of those.
The warpflamers are high hit count, single damage, low range weapons, the butcher canon is a long range 2 damage high strength beast of a gun, locked onto a high toughness model with a great save and a ton of wounds. Dealing up to 6 unsaved wounds* to a HLD doesn't do a thing to impact its effectiveness while doing the same to a group of five rubrics wipes them out completely.
Mathhammer is great! It helps a lot, but just as logic is the beginning of wisdom, not the end, proper mathhammer merely forms the basis for understanding balance in Warhammer.
*which it may heal
I would if I could!
Of course damage is not everything, but if we want to determine if a Leviathan is stronger than 13 rubrics we have three major points of measurement:
- Effectiveness versus vehicles
- Effectiveness versus infantry
- Durability
Both of these units have similar wounds: 13 vs 14.
Bother of these units have a ward save of 4+. Only 5+ versus shooting for the Dread.
Rubrics are easily capable of a 2+ save similar to the Dread especially since they can take cover far more easily.
Dread has a high toughness, but Rubrics are wounded less easily with the new table.
Rubrics cannot heal.
Rubrics are very clearly better at killing infantry.
The Leviathan is very clearly better at killing tanks.
The main point i'm driving at was in regards to panic about how "A bunch of Rubrics are the same PL, but clearly worse than the dread", which is patently untrue.
Charles Rampant wrote: Ork article was fine. Not very exciting. I was hoping that they'd show us the Flash Gitz data sheet or something.
What's the most interesting thing still to come? Space Marine focus I guess... I feel like we must be running out of things that they can drip-feed at this stage.
Space Marine, Necron, Imperial Agent, AdMech and the best of all the Primaris Space Marine.
How can you forget this guy?
I did not play any 40k since they were released. Just got back for 8th. and xenos all look the same anyway.
Charles Rampant wrote: Ork article was fine. Not very exciting. I was hoping that they'd show us the Flash Gitz data sheet or something.
What's the most interesting thing still to come? Space Marine focus I guess... I feel like we must be running out of things that they can drip-feed at this stage.
Space Marine, Necron, Imperial Agent, AdMech and the best of all the Primaris Space Marine.
They'll be looking at Primaris tomorrow. Didn't sound like a full faction-focus though.
We're not getting a Faction focus tomorrow, and the Primaris aren't a faction in of themselves. They'll probably just talk about the flying dudes, plasma dudes, and the characters a bit.
Charles Rampant wrote: Ork article was fine. Not very exciting. I was hoping that they'd show us the Flash Gitz data sheet or something.
What's the most interesting thing still to come? Space Marine focus I guess... I feel like we must be running out of things that they can drip-feed at this stage.
Space Marine, Necron, Imperial Agent, AdMech and the best of all the Primaris Space Marine.
How can you forget this guy?
I did not play any 40k since they were released. Just got back for 8th. and xenos all look the same anyway.
*looks at avatar* Another indistinguishable space marine in a pallet swap lol. Guess it's all a matter of perspective.
This was meant to be funny and sarcastic. So people on the forum should not be getting upset, but they probably will anyways.
Charles Rampant wrote: Ork article was fine. Not very exciting. I was hoping that they'd show us the Flash Gitz data sheet or something.
What's the most interesting thing still to come? Space Marine focus I guess... I feel like we must be running out of things that they can drip-feed at this stage.
Space Marine, Necron, Imperial Agent, AdMech and the best of all the Primaris Space Marine.
They'll be looking at Primaris tomorrow. Didn't sound like a full faction-focus though.
We're not getting a Faction focus tomorrow, and the Primaris aren't a faction in of themselves. They'll probably just talk about the flying dudes, plasma dudes, and the characters a bit.
Still could go a long way to showing us the future of Slightly Bigger Space Marines™.
I await the release of Slightly bigger than the Slightly Bigger Space Marines™ ten years from now.
As others have mentioned, it's funny to see the monotonous meta-dorks twist and turn in a desperate attempt to fit 8th edition into their existing pigeon holes. As we don't have all the information yet nobody can say for sure... however; with the play-tested and newly costed simultaneous release of all units this edition, perhaps the tedious terms such as 'tier, spam, no-brainer, MSU, blobs etc' can be retired. I understand why the meta-dorks desperately cling to these monotonous descriptors, as it can give the illusion they actually know what they are talking about.
Hollow wrote: As others have mentioned, it's funny to see the monotonous meta-dorks twist and turn in a desperate attempt to fit 8th edition into their existing pigeon holes. As we don't have all the information yet nobody can say for sure... however; with the play-tested and newly costed simultaneous release of all units this edition, perhaps the tedious terms such as 'tier, spam, no-brainer, MSU, blobs etc' can be retired. I understand why the meta-dorks desperately cling to these monotonous descriptors, as it can give the illusion they actually know what they are talking about.
All of those words are common descriptors that describe things that will always be in the game, no matter how much GW changes it. (Unless they remove units, and make every model its own unit) What the hell are you smoking?
Hollow wrote: As others have mentioned, it's funny to see the monotonous meta-dorks twist and turn in a desperate attempt to fit 8th edition into their existing pigeon holes. As we don't have all the information yet nobody can say for sure... however; with the play-tested and newly costed simultaneous release of all units this edition, perhaps the tedious terms such as 'tier, spam, no-brainer, MSU, blobs etc' can be retired. I understand why the meta-dorks desperately cling to these monotonous descriptors, as it can give the illusion they actually know what they are talking about.
All of those words are common descriptors that describe things that will always be in the game, no matter how much GW changes it. (Unless they remove units, and make every model its own unit) What the hell are you smoking?
Incredibly strong skunk. My point is that people are desperately trying to place factions into tiers with each new piece of information. If this edition is truly balanced, then the concept of 'tiers' evaporates and hopefully the stigma that people have mentioned in regards to playing particular factions goes with it.
Hollow wrote: As others have mentioned, it's funny to see the monotonous meta-dorks twist and turn in a desperate attempt to fit 8th edition into their existing pigeon holes. As we don't have all the information yet nobody can say for sure... however; with the play-tested and newly costed simultaneous release of all units this edition, perhaps the tedious terms such as 'tier, spam, no-brainer, MSU, blobs etc' can be retired. I understand why the meta-dorks desperately cling to these monotonous descriptors, as it can give the illusion they actually know what they are talking about.
Angry much? Tier, spam, no-brainer and MSU are words that are used in a vast amount of games. Those words aren't going away as there will always be optimized choices whether you're talking about a video game, miniature game, card ame or board game. I'd spend less time using the terms "monotonous and "meta-dorks" and more time researching how games actually function.
Hollow wrote: As others have mentioned, it's funny to see the monotonous meta-dorks twist and turn in a desperate attempt to fit 8th edition into their existing pigeon holes. As we don't have all the information yet nobody can say for sure... however; with the play-tested and newly costed simultaneous release of all units this edition, perhaps the tedious terms such as 'tier, spam, no-brainer, MSU, blobs etc' can be retired. I understand why the meta-dorks desperately cling to these monotonous descriptors, as it can give the illusion they actually know what they are talking about.
We have a good amount of information to get an idea of how all this will work, but I agree. We still need stats and points. As to the descriptors you are talking about, those will always exist. Don't understand why you have such a beef with it. It describes the type of army someone is playing. If we were to get rid of those terms, what would you suggest?
Hollow wrote: As others have mentioned, it's funny to see the monotonous meta-dorks twist and turn in a desperate attempt to fit 8th edition into their existing pigeon holes. As we don't have all the information yet nobody can say for sure... however; with the play-tested and newly costed simultaneous release of all units this edition, perhaps the tedious terms such as 'tier, spam, no-brainer, MSU, blobs etc' can be retired. I understand why the meta-dorks desperately cling to these monotonous descriptors, as it can give the illusion they actually know what they are talking about.
All of those words are common descriptors that describe things that will always be in the game, no matter how much GW changes it. (Unless they remove units, and make every model its own unit) What the hell are you smoking?
Incredibly strong skunk. My point is that people are desperately trying to place factions into tiers with each new piece of information. If this edition is truly balanced, then the concept of 'tiers' evaporates and hopefully the stigma that people have mentioned in regards to playing particular factions goes with it.
I remember playing 40k when people didn't give a gak what "tier" armies were. The game seemed much more fun without those type of concepts. I wonder why people keep going back to them?
EDIT: I do remember being told that labels like WAAC and beardy shouldn't exist.. pretty funny the whole shoe on the other foot thing.
Latro_ wrote: I think the issue with the ork article is its heavily pointing out the obvious benefits from previous articles instead of showing new stuff.
There were quite a few gems for orks in there.
* You can stack buffs. Adding a FNP and KFF are extra layers overs a model.
* We learned how Mob rule works
* We learned how warbosses can keep units in the fight
* We learned how nobs can help keep units together.
Honestly, 120-150 boys with lots of supporting units sounds pretty scary.
Since you can use movement trays to move them, it's a lot easier to field.
Hollow wrote: As others have mentioned, it's funny to see the monotonous meta-dorks twist and turn in a desperate attempt to fit 8th edition into their existing pigeon holes. As we don't have all the information yet nobody can say for sure... however; with the play-tested and newly costed simultaneous release of all units this edition, perhaps the tedious terms such as 'tier, spam, no-brainer, MSU, blobs etc' can be retired. I understand why the meta-dorks desperately cling to these monotonous descriptors, as it can give the illusion they actually know what they are talking about.
All of those words are common descriptors that describe things that will always be in the game, no matter how much GW changes it. (Unless they remove units, and make every model its own unit) What the hell are you smoking?
Incredibly strong skunk. My point is that people are desperately trying to place factions into tiers with each new piece of information. If this edition is truly balanced, then the concept of 'tiers' evaporates and hopefully the stigma that people have mentioned in regards to playing particular factions goes with it.
It won't be. There is no chance in hell that GW (Remember who we're dealing with) will make a completely balanced game. Tiers will remain, the gaps will close. We'll be able to form complete tier pyramids within a day of the full rules releasing.
Hollow wrote: As others have mentioned, it's funny to see the monotonous meta-dorks twist and turn in a desperate attempt to fit 8th edition into their existing pigeon holes. As we don't have all the information yet nobody can say for sure... however; with the play-tested and newly costed simultaneous release of all units this edition, perhaps the tedious terms such as 'tier, spam, no-brainer, MSU, blobs etc' can be retired. I understand why the meta-dorks desperately cling to these monotonous descriptors, as it can give the illusion they actually know what they are talking about.
All of those words are common descriptors that describe things that will always be in the game, no matter how much GW changes it. (Unless they remove units, and make every model its own unit) What the hell are you smoking?
Incredibly strong skunk. My point is that people are desperately trying to place factions into tiers with each new piece of information. If this edition is truly balanced, then the concept of 'tiers' evaporates and hopefully the stigma that people have mentioned in regards to playing particular factions goes with it.
It's patently impossible to get something like this balanced unless you are playing chess or checkers where units on both sides are exactly the same. Look at a lot of popular video games like Overwatch. Balance is something that constantly happens. Regardless of how much playtesting they do, there will be units that are better and armies that are better. Luckily they will be doing yearly updates with the general's handbook which is better, but still far from perfect. This is the nature of any type of game design. Also, those stigmas won't go away. It's just how it is. You either accept it or you don't.
don't like that orks have so many bonus to move and charge faster. They are not eldat, it doens't fit the army. Would have like much better for them to have a rule a la hammer of wrath instead
streetsamurai wrote: don't like that orks have so many bonus to move and charge faster. They are not eldat, it doens't fit the army. Would have like much better for them to have a rule a la hammer of wrath instead
I'm thinking of it as adrenaline rushes. I expect they'll still have low movement values so their one time moving double in a phase may still only come out to a normal every turn movement for an eldar.
