I'll say it, this is the most adorable grim reaper ever! From here, and a number of other things posted there, like Candy off the mech and unposed, and the mech without her on it.
ts been a couple weeks since our last update so we thought we'd make this one a little different from our last few, that were all focused on new models, with a galaxy-sized production update!
Suffice it to say your extraordinary support has allowed us to expand the scope of Relic Knights far beyond what we had originally planned and we have been working a fever pace to bring the whole thing to life.
Relic Knights' six factions, plus Prismatic "mercs" now muster 70 units in the book alone. Add in the Darkspace variant characters and SDE units and we have over 80 units that will be battling for the fate of the galaxy (and your dungeons). Bringing the art and sculpts for a project of this scale to life has been unprecedented for Soda Pop and we have had over two dozen artists and sculptors slaving away to get everything produced. All said and done they have created over 100 models, unique artworks, and new character bios for you to savor.
Even more, we're happy to say that all of the models have been delivered to our manufacturers. Now that the Chinese New Year has passed they have begun tooling and mold-making. We have been told that since there are so many models to be done this process will take roughly six weeks. Each model will go through mastering, cleaning, adjustments for casting, and ultimately approval before they're ready for mass production. We're sure you are every bit as excited as we are to see Relic Knights hit your game table so we will be providing you with status updates, as we receive them ourselves, on every step of the manufacturing process.
While, together, we all watch the gears of manufacturing churn, Soda Pop is still be hard at work preparing for launch as we design retail packaging, sell sheets, and other vital info to get Relic Knights into your hands and the hands of your friendly game store. Most important of all is the rulebook. This massive beast of a manuscript is currently in layout and it seems that we keep finding great things to add to it. It is shaping up to be a monster tome well in excess of 200 pages of rules, units, fiction, and art.
We've also made big changes to the unit cards, as you can see in the images below we've brought the armor attribute to the front of the card, giving this often used stat the ease of reference it deserves. During the public beta we received tons of excellent feedback from you, the community, and we listened. One of the most often requested changes was the creation of keywords for most of the abilities so that we can streamline the cards and standardize their wording. Another often requested feature was some modification for color-blind players, it's hard to see on the low-res versions, but we have added a little positional key on each of the colored esper cost icons allowing you to recognize the type of esper based on the location of the key.
Last up, the manga featuring our favorite princess, Princess Malya is speeding along and looking fabulous.
Below we've included a small sample of page layouts, new cards, and comic book line-art. The Darkspace Calamity is growing, we hope you're ready!
I can say I'm happy about the colour blind thing. I'm red green colour-blind, but the real problem with those cards would've been telling the purple/blue apart and the light yellow/light green. I was actually considering physically marking the cards when they arrived with a black marker, writing "B" and "P" and "G" and "Y" so I'd know what they were.
I'd read it as 6 weeks to tool, then they need to produce the miniatures and then they need another 4 to 6 weeks to ship from China so 10 weeks at the quickest and 12-15 weeks realistically before they have them ready to ship to backers - then add postage time for that as well - they might just hit the end of May but June might be more realistic - I never really thought this would keep to may anyway given how much got added.
It will be six weeks to finish all of the molds. If that factory is run by a manager with any business sense they will make use of the molds as they are finished and get started on the first ones before the last are done. If SPM is able to prioritize the order the molds are made they could have something like the starters made first and the non-ks molds finished last to utilize those six weeks better. Well, that is if the factory doesn't have a full production schedule.
The shipping may still fall behind schedule with customs, factory schedules, and what-not, but it shouldn't be as bad as the full six week delay for making molds.
A bit of info from Soda Pop via the KS comments, and their own website
First the two Cerci Pit Crew
and from KS comments
SPM_Deke about 1 hour ago
Hi Everyone,
We'll be posting another production update soon. We are now receiving more concrete dates from our manufacturer, so will be able to give you a better timeline.
Our website woes have been a large headache for us. As Hausdorff said we have some helpful people doing their best to keep it struggling along (it's back up as of this writing), while our new website designers are working on a new site. In fact I've just posted a couple new previews there:
Join the Soda Pop Crew this Saturday, April 6th from 3:00 - 4:00, Pacific Daylight Time for a Relic Knights, Reddit AMA. John, Chris, and Deke will all be online to answer your Relic Knight questions. See you there!
I wish they had given a link or something but I guess we can look around when the time comes.
2) Were the various rules issues addressed? I remember there were a few 'show stoppers' brought up in the play test forums over on Soda Pop, and it didn't look like they were being taken seriously enough. Or even really acknowledged.
but I'm fairly shocked by quite how long the deley is (6 months + for shipping to USA/ROW and probably 7 months for shipping to the EU),
considereing how upbeat they were being right up to the update today, sigh
I DO hope they don't try to bring anything saleable from this KS project to a convention before the backers get their stuff as I'm not sure they'd get out alive based on the KS coments
Got to agree - no surprise that there is a delay but VERY surprised over the projected length of the delay!
I definite WTF?!? moment...
Full disappointing update:
New firm ship date - November
Update #79 · Apr 4, 2013 · 83 comments
With spring's arrival, we know many of you are on pins and needles, and we are glad to say we have received a production timeline from our manufacturers. Unfortunately, it misses our May target date. The current production schedule we have been provided with has Relic Knights shipping from China in August. Which means our warehouse will receive product around November to ship to you.
As we mentioned in our previous production update, the success of the Kickstarter allowed us to expand and improve the Relic Knights range far beyond our expectations. It has allowed the entire range to move plastic and now comprises over 100 unique, multi-part models. This means the scope of the project became significantly larger than any single launch we have done before.
For comparison, the boxed set Super Dungeon Explore only has 20 unique sculpts. If you add every single Super Dungeon Explore expansion to the number, the total rises to 54. Needless to say, Relic Knights was able to explode!
As Relic Knights expanded the scope of the project also expanded and the time ballooned right alongside. Our initial quote for creating the molds for all the models was 1.5 months. That time quote has now increased to 3.5 months. Consequently the time of production down the entire line increases; ultimately arriving at the new November date.
We understand that this is disappointing for all of you, just as it is for us. In the meantime, we are working on a few things to fill the time delay and thank you for your patience. First, we will be releasing a pdf of the rules, including cards for all the units from the Kickstarter. This will allow you to read the rules, build some awesome themed terrain, and play proxy games. Those of you with existing Relic Knights collections will be able to start playing immediately.
Second, Soda Pop is creating a Relic Knights artbook, which will be available as a pdf download to all backers. The artbook will include concept art, illustrations, and behind the scenes information from Soda Pop’s design team on the processes that went into creating Relic Knights.
Finally, Soda Pop is holding a Relic Knights, Reddit AMA this Saturday, April 6 from 3:00 – 4:00p.m. Pacific Time. John, Chris, and Deke will all be available to answer any questions you have about the Relic Knights Kickstarter, game, miniatures, events, and universe. We’re looking forward to the opportunity to chat with you.
Once again, we're sorry for the delay, and we are going to make Relic Knights the best it can possibly be!
Yeah they dicked over tentacle bento that way and made a lot of folks angry. I'm not shocked at all since at this point I expect all Kickstarters to be several months past estimation date. One thing that crowdsource funding allows for is a relaxed attitude to deadlines. I'm sure they are working their butt off, but it's be 10x as much if there was a interest rate financial ruin attached to everything.
In the end, crowdsourced projects are still my favorite method of production.
I wonder how much of the issue is crowdsourcing and how much is just people being unable to accurately guess how long things take. I know in corporations that happens all the time too, with some project taking 2-3 times as long because people were over optimistic about each step. Might be a general human bias?
I think it was a combination of an under estimate on tooling time for the models coupled with the time they lost due to the Chinese New Year. They had to set their shipping goal before the KS started, and based on their commentary it seems like they genuinely didnt expect to be producing as many models as they did. 100 new sculpts is nothing to slouch at. It's a bit frustrating, I guess, but I'm hardly concerned. I project manage, and this gak happens. It's a fact of business. Honestly, I appreciate the really articulate and honest response they provided more than anything.
As to be expected, the nerd rage on the KS forum is impressive.
cincydooley wrote: I think it was a combination of an under estimate on tooling time for the models coupled with the time they lost due to the Chinese New Year. They had to set their shipping goal before the KS started, and based on their commentary it seems like they genuinely didnt expect to be producing as many models as they did. 100 new sculpts is nothing to slouch at. It's a bit frustrating, I guess, but I'm hardly concerned. I project manage, and this gak happens. It's a fact of business. Honestly, I appreciate the really articulate and honest response they provided more than anything.
As to be expected, the nerd rage on the KS forum is impressive.
I didn't expect the rage. Whatever else this should at least help people realize that while many treat Kickstarter as a store or pre-order system, in practice it's not such a great comparison.
Though if all the cool mini handled kickstarters are using the same few factories and there is a growing backlog of work then that could explain the cascade of delays were now seeing in there projects. It also a good reason not to back anymore cool mini handled projects until that backlog is cleared.
The 6 month delay (although I suspect this will turn to 8 months) I can deal with. What I can’t deal with is if SPM do the same as they did with Tentacle Bento. That project received a 4 month delay for the people who backed the project, but they had it on sale at conventions BEFORE they sent it out to people who’d backed the project more than 6 months earlier.
If SPM sell this game or any of the KIckstarter components to anyone BEFORE they’ve completed all their backers pledges, it will switch me off SPM period.
TheSecretSquig wrote: The 6 month delay (although I suspect this will turn to 8 months) I can deal with. What I can’t deal with is if SPM do the same as they did with Tentacle Bento. That project received a 4 month delay for the people who backed the project, but they had it on sale at conventions BEFORE they sent it out to people who’d backed the project more than 6 months earlier.
If SPM sell this game or any of the KIckstarter components to anyone BEFORE they’ve completed all their backers pledges, it will switch me off SPM period.
I agree completely. Delays are one thing, but to pull stock that could be shipped to people who already payed, and sell it at a convention...thats terrible.
I get ticked when news like this comes out when it does. Even as the project was closing on kickstarter they should have had some indication based on the success and the promised sculpts that a delay would occur. At that point a 'Due to our success we are going to assume an X month delay' and then updated us as the status/timeline became more clear. Dropping news of a 6 month delay within two months of when they were supposed to deliver is pathetic.
The saddest part really is the short to medium term effect it will have on the game: momentum is a very real thing, and they may have just killed it.
With this revised estimate for shipping, it's entirely likely that a number of anticipated products will be beating SP to store shelves/backers: Kingdom Death first and foremost among them. This delay will also hang over their heads like a cloud, with anything they do come out with over the course of the majority of the rest of the year prompting the question "oh, so was this what you were doing instead of...?"
You act as if KD and Relic Knights have the same audience. KD sounded interesting sure, but it didn't interest me enough to buy in. Relic Knights in plastic is something I always wanted and I threw down $600 on that.
Truth be told the delay doesn't bother me that much. It'll only bother me, as others have said, if they start to sell the stuff at conventions before the KS people get their models (ala Zombicide).
BlueDagger wrote: Yeah they dicked over tentacle bento that way and made a lot of folks angry. I'm not shocked at all since at this point I expect all Kickstarters to be several months past estimation date. One thing that crowdsource funding allows for is a relaxed attitude to deadlines. I'm sure they are working their butt off, but it's be 10x as much if there was a interest rate financial ruin attached to everything.
Maybe, but there would also be a much greater risk of getting a shoddy, rushed-to-meet-deadline product.
It's disappointing, but I'm not too bent out of shape; I certainly have no lack of painting to get caught up on and rules systems to learn in the meantime. Sample miniatures also look nice, apart from the eyes. On the one hand, I cannot paint "realistic" eyes on minis at all, but these look seriously uncanny when unpainted.
The Reddit is over, with... some questions of note answered (I guess?).
Spoiler:
Hello everyone! We'll be doing this Reddit AMA from 3:00 to 4:00. We wanted to start out with answers to several questions we have pulled from Kickstarter.
Q: What is the relationship between Soda Pop and CMON A: Soda Pop Miniatures is a design studio. Cool Mini or Not is our publisher. SPM creates the game and miniatures. CMON handles the manufacturing and distribution of our games.
Q: How many miniatures and which miniatures are already mastered (most miniatures I've seen so far have been just computer renderings)? How many molds and tools are already finished?
A: 107 models. All the masters are finished. These masters are currently in the hands of our manufacturer undergoing the tooling process. They estimate 3.5 months to have the molds ready.
Q: When will your supplier start/ finish production?
A: Production will begin as soon as the molds are ready. Tentatively estimated to begin in July.
The production process takes 3-4 weeks.
Q: When will the miniatures be shipped to you?
A: Once the products have been manufactured, product is shipped to the CMON warehouse in Georgia. Typically, a separate shipment is sent to a warehouse in Europe. Shipping takes 6-9 weeks, depending on customs and weather.
Q: When will the miniatures arrive at your warehouse?
A: Assuming that the shipment leaves China in August, then we expect to receive it in the CMON warehouse sometime in October.
Q: When will you start shipping to us?
A: Once in the warehouse, product will be mailed to Kickstarter pledges immediately.
Q: What is the status on the rulebook? What is the staus on the cards?
A: The rulebook and cards are all laid out and in the final pass for editing. As soon as the final edits are made, it will be available as a .pdf download for all KS pledgers. All print product will produced concurrently with the miniatures.
Q: What is the status on the tokens?
A: Tokens are designed and will be manufactured at the same time as the miniatures.
Q: What is the status on the playmats?
A: Playmats are designed and will be produced at the same time as the rest of the print product.
Q: How do you plan to inform the backers about further project progress?
A: Will continue to post updates on the Kickstarter, Facebook, and (once the new site is done) our website. We will be posting models you have not seen, plus newly painted models.
Q: Why the delay in communication of the delay? You must have known for a while?
A: After we delivered the miniatures (and posted the update to that effect) we were told that it would take longer than the initial estimate. It took several weeks before we knew the extent of the delay. We posted the update to Kickstarter the week we knew the full delay.
Q: How do you make sure that there are no additional delays? A: The game is complete. The models are mastered. With no additional changes, we can rely on our manufacturers to deliver on their quotes.
Q: Why the delay in communication of the delay? You must have known for a while?
A: After we delivered the miniatures (and posted the update to that effect) we were told that it would take longer than the initial estimate. It took several weeks before we knew the extent of the delay. We posted the update to Kickstarter the week we knew the full delay.
OK.
Q: How do you make sure that there are no additional delays? A: The game is complete. The models are mastered. With no additional changes, we can rely on our manufacturers to deliver on their quotes.
Right.
Well, they didn't exactly cover themselves in glory there...
In the Reddit (in reply to a question about the nature of the plastics);
John as waylaid on his way here. He is the man with the specifics on plastics.
Questions about the nature of the plastics are one of the most common things in the comments, and there is one guy that can answer those questions? Incidentally, "John" is listed as one of the participants in the Reddit, but... was in the bathroom, perhaps?
This comment from the AMA was reposted on the KS comments
SPM_DekeSodapop Staff 2 points 4 minutes ago
Kickstarter orders will be the FIRST orders shipped, once the boat from China arrives and we have product in the warehouse. The decision to air ship product to have available at shows is dependent on CMON’s marketing plan and whether having new releases at a show will help ensure a successful launch of the product. We have a limited window to ensure a new game reaches critical mass and conventions are a vital component of growing the community. In the end, creating a larger community of players for a game is good for everyone.
So read into that what you will but I read it as yes CMoN will specially fly in product for cons and it's nothing to do with SPM honest!
Well CMON will not have the PR fallout in its hands SPM will, so why would they care much? if they airlift product for conventions they will increase the awareness and as a distributor it is high in their interests, SPM will have to deal with any reactions in their forums from the core that is displeased.
Q: Why the delay in communication of the delay? You must have known for a while?
A: After we delivered the miniatures (and posted the update to that effect) we were told that it would take longer than the initial estimate. It took several weeks before we knew the extent of the delay. We posted the update to Kickstarter the week we knew the full delay.
A simple "Folks, we now realize there is going to be a delay, and once we know the extent of this delay we will pass that information on to you" delivered 'several weeks' ago would have been better than the "Hey, you know that game we were supposed to ship to you next month? Well, we are not gonna do it for several more months" we just got.
Will it be possible for people who have been very disppointed by the extra 7+ month delay to get a refund?
[–]spm_chrisSodapop Staff 2 points 1 day ago
A delay of this nature, while undesirable, is fairly common for kickstarter projects. We just want to point out that there is zero chance that Relic Knight fans won’t see their products. Relic Knights WILL ship, and the current estimated delivery date is a conservative estimate. That said, we understand that folks are unhappy. We are currently discussing options with CMON. You can direct any inquiries about your pledge to kickstarter@coolminiornot.com
Based on this, is anyone tempted to ask for a refund?
I was pretty much expecting a longer delay than what they had set, didn't expect 7 months.. but can't say I'm ready to ask for a refund or anything.
They did tell us that they would be releasing a PDF artbook and a finished rulebook to hold us over, but I totally understand why people would be upset.
I have largely forgotten when they were supposed to be here, or that I spent money on the models. I am going to get a big box of stuff some afternoon, and be surprised and pleased at the contents.
The best part about having a bad memory is that every day can be like Christmas.
Will it be possible for people who have been very disppointed by the extra 7+ month delay to get a refund?
[–]spm_chrisSodapop Staff 2 points 1 day ago
A delay of this nature, while undesirable, is fairly common for kickstarter projects. We just want to point out that there is zero chance that Relic Knight fans won’t see their products. Relic Knights WILL ship, and the current estimated delivery date is a conservative estimate. That said, we understand that folks are unhappy. We are currently discussing options with CMON. You can direct any inquiries about your pledge to kickstarter@coolminiornot.com
Based on this, is anyone tempted to ask for a refund?
I have to admit... I am slightly tempted...
I'm tempted. As time goes on I'm a lot less enthusiastic about the game.
I'm not really. I think making more money than expected is both a blessing and a curse. With this particular KS, it's pretty obvious which goals they really thought they'd hit and which were more unexpected. You just look at how "finished" the art of the mini was, and it's obvious which ones weren't completely prepped for production. When they funded them, it adds to the tooling and production time. I think they'd have benefitted from a two phase approach, but then they'd get killed on shipping.
I was a little disappointed, but I'm not going to ask for a refund. It's unfortunate that they're behind, but It wasnt that unexpected when they had to get nearly 100 new moulds tooled.
I worry because of that, and because I suspect they have plenty of sculpts done we have not seen. Updates would be a good thing, especially with the monster delay.
When they don't show the sculpts it makes me wonder....
As I understand project management in general, a lot of them go wrong in one way or another, typically by going over schedule especially if the managers are trying to avoid going over budget or under quality.
I don't think it is like a retail contract when you back a Kickstarter. You pay, and you hope you get what you wanted, but the offer was not a specific product on a specific date.
Someone on Dakka somewhere pointed out that this is not necessarily the case - and that people can and have successfully sued 'Kickstarter" projects that have failed to deliver or were late in delivering.
To the point that CMON will simply give a refund to anyone that asks... I think!
In this case it bankrupted the project creator and no one got anything, the creator had bitten off more than he could chew made a lot of rookie mistakes and couldn't deliver the product. He hadn't signed contracts with manufacturers prior to commencing the KS and once they saw what he raised they bumped up their prices accordingly it's an interesting read.
I may not be happy about the 6 month delay but I still like the miniatures and game so I can wait but December/January is getting very crowded foKS deliveries!
Will it be possible for people who have been very disppointed by the extra 7+ month delay to get a refund?
[–]spm_chrisSodapop Staff 2 points 1 day ago
A delay of this nature, while undesirable, is fairly common for kickstarter projects. We just want to point out that there is zero chance that Relic Knight fans won’t see their products. Relic Knights WILL ship, and the current estimated delivery date is a conservative estimate. That said, we understand that folks are unhappy. We are currently discussing options with CMON. You can direct any inquiries about your pledge to kickstarter@coolminiornot.com
Based on this, is anyone tempted to ask for a refund?
I have to admit... I am slightly tempted...
At this point Im not. Sure the delay sucks, but I want the minis, and the amount Im getting for what I paid is great. Id hate to get a refund now, start seeing the stuff when it gets released, and realize that I do want it, and now Ive got to pay a lot more at retail to get what I had already pledged for with the KS.
Most of the stuff that I wanted from Doctrine was already done when I pledged. The students or whatever look pretty bad, but the academy guard look fine to me.
The Perfect Team looks really nice to me as well. Don't remember seeing them in this thread, but they may be down there somewhere.
We'd like to thank everyone who stopped by our booth last weekend at Adepticon. It was great to get to talk to so many of you. As promised we have two more Darkspace previews for you, Cosplay Rin and Fiametta!
I'm glad most of the stuff I want for Doctrine was already done when I pledged as the new stuff has been some what disappointing I know Dark Space Fiametta isn't Doctrine as such but she's done in that style the staff is to big and clunky as are most of the new Doctrine staffs, the left arm pose is odd she sort of looks like a zombie to me. It's funny because the Shatterd Sword were the exact opposite for me, so so original line but the new stuff has been much better.
Ill have to agree Doctrine is really disappointing, but I just pledged for many many black diamonds, I hope they turn out ok, I wonder since the delay is substantial and the royal wreckers didn't turn out to be good, if I could ask to swap it with a serpent princes that turned out a decent sculpt to paint.
PsychoticStorm wrote: Ill have to agree Doctrine is really disappointing, but I just pledged for many many black diamonds, I hope they turn out ok, I wonder since the delay is substantial and the royal wreckers didn't turn out to be good, if I could ask to swap it with a serpent princes that turned out a decent sculpt to paint.
I went with Black Diamond for my half of our pledge. I threw in one of the add ons as well, but I forget exactly what it was at this point.
We will be getting the Black Diamond plus add on for me, and Doctrine plus add on for my wife. I dont really remember what all comes with all that...so its gonna be fun getting it all unboxed. Kinda like Christmas...which is convenient because thats probably about when it will get here.
Well now look what's appeared on Relic Knights CKPM page.
You can now unlock your Relic Knights pledge and change it if you want different miniatures after seeing the sculpts or you can add to it but you can't get a refund of money already pledged using this method.
Guide updated with sculpts and renders!
Update #82 · May 15, 2013 · 6 comments
As we sort out photography, we're updating the huge guide of everything with sculpts, renders, and even finished studio paint jobs of all the figs! Enjoy!
- Deke
If you've submitted a support email in the last week, we're behind due to increased support volume from Zombicide: Season 2 and Guilds of Cadwallon roll outs but are catching up. We'll get to you soon, if we haven't already. Thank you for being patient, and sorry for the wait!
The base inserts look great far better than I was expecting hopefully they sell them separately later. I'm hoping the fact that they didn't show the Academy Guard but have new artwork means they have redesigned them the WIPs didn't look great. No new head for Squal pity. Kasoro To SDEs head just doesn't look chibi enough just as well Impact! have seriously cool chibi Oni coming out I can sub in. Hopefully we'll get a close up of Marikan To soon and the new pose for Suicide Queen looks great. Some of the new paint jobs aren't up to the standard of the older ones - I guess time constraints have caused this. Overall still happy to be getting everything even if I have to wait 6 months longer :(
Buzzsaw wrote: I find it perplexing that they apparently have renders/sculpts for so many things and have chosen to reveal them in such a difficult to see manner.
Agreed. I'm sure there's a larger version of this on a computer somewhere. It's not clear why they didn't at least link to it as they did during campaign updates.
My guess is whoever at CMON put the update on is not the normal person who does it and so forgot/didn't know how to link to a larger image (most previous updates have allowed zooming)
CMON have said elsewhere that they are trying to catch up on a fortnights worth of emails/stuff etc... not sure where I read this but it was this week (I guess the majority of the staff have all been away at a Con)
Alpharius wrote: Be that as it may, changing a concept that much is bound to annoy a lot of people.
See: Mantic Concept Art vs. Actual Miniatures in every Mantic Thread.
Still, they have opened up the ability to switch anything around, or even get a refund, so there is that.
Unfortunately they're slowly running out of things I'd even want to switch my money to. I get when a model doesn't turn out as good as a concept art it being a "tough crap" sort of thing, but changing a concept art after people have already purchased the product based on that art is disappointing at best.
Alpharius wrote: Be that as it may, changing a concept that much is bound to annoy a lot of people.
See: Mantic Concept Art vs. Actual Miniatures in every Mantic Thread.
Still, they have opened up the ability to switch anything around, or even get a refund, so there is that.
Talking with a painter who does work for CMoN, he mentioned that CMoN didn't get the previous sculptors locked down and committed to the project. So when CMoN came to them to do the new figs, they were already booked with other projects. That is one of the reasons for the difference in figure quality.
Worthy Painting going out of business
Update #83 · May 31, 2013 · 10 comments
This affects 14 backers that pledged for All Dolled Up but it might be of interest to all of you in general. We'll be contacting All Dolled Up backers by email individually to arrange refunds for your pledge on the painted sets.
In a nutshell, Worthy Gaming store (which owns the Worthy Painting) is going out of business so they will not be available to paint Relic Knights. Although there are many good painting services out there, it's still sad to see them go.
New Update
Card previews
Update #84 · Jun 22, 2013 · 23 comments
Hello everyone!
We hope your summer is in full swing and you've had a chance to enjoy some sunny days. The gears of production on Relic Knights continue to grind away. We are getting the first test shots of the models from the molds and doing the necessary work to perfect them before mass production.
Meanwhile, we continue to use the time to put more finishing touches on the print materials, like packaging, cards, and rules. We're just about ready to release the rules pdf as promised. In the meantime, we wanted to show you the cards for each faction's Relic Knight!
cincydooley wrote: So they showed some 360 previews of the SDE minis in an update today.
Really hoping they'll let me swap out my SDE Kosaro To. I think the mini is just awful and doesn't fit in the style of the game at all.
Here's the update in questi CoolMiniOrNot
Posted project update #85
Test shots of SDE LEs!
Here are the first test shots of the SDE Limited editions. Note, the large mold lines are normal at this stage while the molds are adjusted. They are also on Sedition Wars bases while the tool for the Relic Knight ones are being finished.
SDE Malya
It is pretty annoying that the reaction toward Kosaro is overwhelmingly negative (just like it was a few weeks ago when he was first shown) but apparently there is no hope of getting him reworked/improved.
SPM said that both of the Gencon models will be available on their webstore some time after Gencon. How long it will take for their webstore to be live again and how limited the models will be remains to be seen.
More production masters...
Update #88 · Aug 13, 2013 · 28 comments
We've got a ton of approved production masters, and this pretty much rounds off the entire Relic Knights line except for a few odds and ends.... enjoy!
From what can I see, everything looks...pretty good.
Some details look 'soft' to me, but I guess we should wait to see the actual miniatures and painted up at that!
Lots of details do look very soft. Also why the production masters, if they are going to deliver on their new very late deadline then at the very least we should be seeing test shots from the moulds. I'm guessing they are going to announce another big delay about a week before backers are supposed to receive their models.
CptJake wrote: Is it just me, or is there almost no facial detail on these?
I'm hoping that what is going on is the poor quality of the pictures with that color resin; otherwise I would say there are some almost shockingly soft details on some of these pictures. For example;
While the overall shape is nice, she seems to be wearing mittens and have almost no face at all...
I'm more excited now to see what a fully realized Noh force looks like. And haven't we been over the soft (lacking) facial detail before? I thought the defense was that it provides a face shaped canvas on which to paint anime-esque expressions.
Hopefully, it's as some have stated and the picture quality simply does not do the models justice.
Yea, I have some of Soda Pop's earlier models, and the faces are designed to look like anime styled faces. They paint up quite nicely though. Here's a WIP shot of Kaya when she first came out like... 3 years ago? 5? Christ I am old...
Also, yea I can attest to light colored resin/plastic conveying almost no detail in pictures, and tough to see in person. I switched to dying it grey/brown for just that reason.
Huge difference between "designed to look like anime styled faces" and "provides a face shaped canvas on which to paint anime-esque expressions".
Looks like anime implies there is some detail that looks that way. A 'canvas' for me to paint nonexistent detail doesn't cut it in my opinion. I hope the appearance of soft detail is due to material color, but when I look at
I doubt the soft detail is purely a product of material color. The hair, boot to leg transition, as well as face just look devoid of detail that should be there, anime style or not.
I can't comment about the rest, but I am telling you the face will be fine. The metal Kaya looked just like that, with a subtle nose and mouth, large eye space and none of the super defined cheek bones etc that we see in some PP or GW models. I might just be more used to staring at beige resin and picking out details, but I can see all the relevant facial details I expect in that picture. I am pretty confident that the other details will look fine too.
Really though, they should have primed the model, or cast it in a dyed resin to avoid these discussions. I doubt we are the only ones having it!
Nice updates, not-coincidentally coinciding with the launch of the new KS campaign to calm the masses waiting on this
That said, the models look pretty interesting to me. I think some of the "softness" may be the color of the resin in the photos, as Wehrkind says. We'll see! I know a lot of people locally who are waiting on this.
Gen Con is a good thing - it forces...the Updates!
Battlemat production sample at Gencon.
Update #90 · Aug 15, 2013 · 5 comments
Here's a quick look at a production sample of the Battlemat. Looks (and feels) great!
spiralingcadaver wrote: I thought it was clear but, the super-phallic crotch-height rocket spewing fluid?
No, I wouldn't have had much to say about soda pop if they had a sexy girl model, I mean, that's probably most of their line.
Unless you have a poorly implemented Prince Albert, your phallus shouldn't spew fluid out the side like that. You should probably have a doctor look at that.
Sometimes I am not sure I am more pervy than the median, or just everyone sees that sort of thing, and the difference is the reaction to it.
Or maybe that's the definition of "pervy." Our brains turn every rectangular volume into a phallus, and it is just a question of whether you say yay or nay.
spiralingcadaver wrote: I thought it was clear but, the super-phallic crotch-height rocket spewing fluid?
No, I wouldn't have had much to say about soda pop if they had a sexy girl model, I mean, that's probably most of their line.
Ah, I see. I hadn't made the connection and even having it pointed out, it seems a bit of a stretch. But one could certainly move the frothing outpouring to the soda top. Maybe cover Candy with some of the foam? The sky's the limit!
On another note: how hard is it to create condensation on the bottle like so?
spiralingcadaver wrote: I thought it was clear but, the super-phallic crotch-height rocket spewing fluid?
No, I wouldn't have had much to say about soda pop if they had a sexy girl model, I mean, that's probably most of their line.
Ah, I see. I hadn't made the connection and even having it pointed out, it seems a bit of a stretch.
FWIW, I was pretty skeptical about the suggest-itude, and my wife happened to notice the the sculpt on my screen and had an "umm, wut?" moment. W/O knowing that it's a company called soda pop's mascot, it's a bit less innocuous.
I'm not offended (used to soda pop at this point, complaining soda pop is selling sex is like complaining south park is crossing some line in parodying something) and it isn't stopping me from buying it (it's not that great of a mini, for a game I don't play), but I'm a bit surprised that people consider it a stretch.
Apparently the dragon thing is another beast option for the beast master. The Noh also get 2 new priest/hunter types far right in heavier armour. Every faction will get another Questing knight and cypher as well. These are all for the retail release not the KS.
spiralingcadaver wrote: I thought it was clear but, the super-phallic crotch-height rocket spewing fluid?
No, I wouldn't have had much to say about soda pop if they had a sexy girl model, I mean, that's probably most of their line.
Ah, I see. I hadn't made the connection and even having it pointed out, it seems a bit of a stretch. But one could certainly move the frothing outpouring to the soda top. Maybe cover Candy with some of the foam? The sky's the limit!
Time for that Katy Perry video clip? You know the one.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Noh and Black Diamond still look good. Shame I ran out of money last year and had to pull my pledge. But shizzle happens.
I was at GenCon and the booth was pretty busy. Unfortunately I didn't get a very good idea about which figures on display were actually Kickstarter plastics ('The big guy in the case' was the guidance I received, and there's a lot of big guys in the cases!). It was my first time seeing any Relic Knights figures in person-the humans are pretty small but they look great. I'm hoping the KS releases have the same detail. I'm pretty happy to have pledged for all the Cerci models.
I also played a demo game of Relic Knights for a bit and it seems fun.
All in all though, the CMON booth seemed to want to churn through the attendees- I didn't get the feeling that anyone actually wanted to talk to anyone
If anyone is looking for SDE Nyan Nyan SPM are showing out of stock but CMoN have her on sale $12.99 - 288 left I think about 10 have sold in the last 10 minutes or so.
According to Deke the the pdf rules out now are the mini version of the rulebook that will be included in the starter sets. The hardback book is 272 pages long.
After reading the final rules I am very impressed. The refinement and polish put on those crummy beta rules released last year is astounding.
The rules in the book appear very tight with lots of consideration for resolving rare or corner-case events. The verbiage and terminology seem consistent and well-defined. The layout is solid and the reference sections at the end are sure to be the most-used parts of the book. The symbols may be a bit difficult to read at a glance but I'll reserve that judgement for when I have physical cards.
The game itself seems to have become a progressive skirmish system with emphasis on scenario, positioning, and planning ahead. The randomness in this game is minimal, which speaks well for the use of both pre-battle strategy and mid-game tactics.
All the excitement has rushed back to me after having a chance to read the rules.
1. Rules are fairly solid. Areas that I can see needing a bit of rewrite are the definition of Objects(It can be inferred that objects consist of models and terrain, but I don't think it's directly stated.) and a little bit of clarification of squad interactions with things like AOEs.
2. Most factions tend to almost exclusively use two to three colors, which means the figures that don't use those colors will probably see a lot of use to minimize "dead esper". I can see Rinn Farah, Austrican Ogre, and those Doctrine elite guard things all becoming must-takes.
3. The faction victory condition for Cerci will probably be one of the first things errata'd if a tournament scene develops, as by my calculations most people will "deck out" in 8 actions and that's not enough time to achieve a victory condition.
3a. Calico Kate's esper ability will be the second thing errata'd, as the abilities are supposed to be a straight buff, and since she needs to spend chaos to attack there will almost always be more Law in the deck waiting to be flipped.
4. The rules seem suited to tournament play overall, with deterministic combat resolution, an ironed out order of operations for special effects, and gameplay based around a high degree of movement.
2. Most factions tend to almost exclusively use two to three colors, which means the figures that don't use those colors will probably see a lot of use to minimize "dead esper". I can see Rinn Farah, Austrican Ogre, and those Doctrine elite guard things all becoming must-takes.
I agree but I think it is more a symptom of a young game without enough room to fit in various off-color models. Hopefully expansion models will fix this eventually.
3. The faction victory condition for Cerci will probably be one of the first things errata'd if a tournament scene develops, as by my calculations most people will "deck out" in 8 actions and that's not enough time to achieve a victory condition.
I'm inclined to agree here as well, if for no other reason than it discourages refocusing to build held esper early in the game. It seems like that strategy that will be cut off to the faction entirely. Some of the secondary conditions don't seem too bad to accomplish early, but some are all but impossible without using lots of linked activations.
I really enjoyed my demo game at gencon- it seemed really fun to play, and I especially liked how they handled cover. Made my friends and I glad we jumped in on this.
cincydooley wrote: For anyone curious, you can still Unlock and add gak to you pledge in the CKPM.
I don't think I realized this!
I may have to add in some Shattered Sword stuff - it turned out way better than I thought it was going to turn out, based on the concept art and early test miniatures!
Yep Shattered Sword ended up much better than they originally looked where as I think the Corsairs turned out pretty poor, the minions and Harker are poor sculpts by SPM standards even Moffet is just OK.
Think I'm set I had a look at the various game sizes and I can just about cover each game size up to Battle at 100 pts. with what I ordered although one or 2 factions are a few points light. I'll probably pick up 2 more Noh Beserkers retail as I could do with 6 I'll be getting Mamaro To and the Dahon then anyway.
The more I think about it the more I don't like Flip abilities.
The main problem I see is that flips tend to be +1/-1 even, whereas the decks will tend towards a higher number of the -1 cards, as you need to spend +1 cards to activate the flip. On top of that, they're esper inefficient, with esper spent on abilities dealing 1.5 to 2 damage per esper compared to the 1 per esper with a Flip.
RogueRegault wrote: The more I think about it the more I don't like Flip abilities.
The main problem I see is that flips tend to be +1/-1 even, whereas the decks will tend towards a higher number of the -1 cards, as you need to spend +1 cards to activate the flip. On top of that, they're esper inefficient, with esper spent on abilities dealing 1.5 to 2 damage per esper compared to the 1 per esper with a Flip.
you should have about an even chance to flip +1 and -1 cards shouldn't you? You'll spend +1 cards to trigger abilities but that doesn't mean you haven't been drawing -1 cards and discarding them. I'm not going to claim that I love the flip mechanic but it is interesting in that it is better after a streak of bad luck draws. It will also usually be better with a low card count in your deck so you have a better idea of what to expect -unless you drew well and the +1 cards are gone.
RogueRegault wrote: The more I think about it the more I don't like Flip abilities.
The main problem I see is that flips tend to be +1/-1 even, whereas the decks will tend towards a higher number of the -1 cards, as you need to spend +1 cards to activate the flip. On top of that, they're esper inefficient, with esper spent on abilities dealing 1.5 to 2 damage per esper compared to the 1 per esper with a Flip.
you should have about an even chance to flip +1 and -1 cards shouldn't you? You'll spend +1 cards to trigger abilities but that doesn't mean you haven't been drawing -1 cards and discarding them. I'm not going to claim that I love the flip mechanic but it is interesting in that it is better after a streak of bad luck draws. It will also usually be better with a low card count in your deck so you have a better idea of what to expect -unless you drew well and the +1 cards are gone.
It's worst with Calico Kate as she has no choice but to flip due to her Esper Expression.
There's also the worry I have that it would bog the game down due to players counting their discards before deciding whether to flip. My friends are already bad enough with analysis paralysis.
Candy and Cola
Cordelia Clean
Harbonath (Void Reaper) and Keruv
Amelial (Void Herald)
Radiant forces can be made of a Radiant Knight (Candy), Radiant Uniques (Cordelia), Radiant Minions (none yet) and models with the unique characteristic from Cerci Speed Circuit, Shattered Sword and Doctrine. Where a force size allows they my take a knight from these 3 factions as well in addition to the Radiant Knight.
Void forces can be made of a Void Knight (Harbonath), Void Uniques (Amelial), Void Minions (none yet) and models with the unique characteristic from Noh (none yet), Black Diamond (none yet) and SN Corsairs. Where a force size allows they my take a knight from these 3 factions as well in addition to the Void Knight.
Yes as I think she is the one previously referred to as the Void Herald (the name Amelial is new to me) who you could get along with Cordelia Clean as Void and Prismatic alternatives
the figure looks similar to that in update 51 (better art and no facemask now)
DaveC wrote: Yep Shattered Sword ended up much better than they originally looked where as I think the Corsairs turned out pretty poor, the minions and Harker are poor sculpts by SPM standards even Moffet is just OK.
Considering dropping my Corsairs in favor of Doctrine. Is there any way to order a Calico Kate without her faction starter? Don't remember but are the battle posed alternate pilots kickstarter exclusive?
You can't get individual stuff from the starters (though you may or may not be able to pick her up later at retail)
The battle poses may well be exclusive as no mention has been made of them getting a retail release (and they'll add cost) but there was no specific KS exclusive tag......
but then again they've got the moulds done so they have the option to send them to retail
It's funny Dentry Calico Kate and Iron chef are the reason I decided not to drop SNC in the end they would probably cost as much to get later anyway so I might as well keep the starter - I might never use SNC but those 2 models with fit in a Void force so I can use them. I did juggle my pledge though dropping some of the stuff I doubled up on as I don't think it would ever be used so I had enough to get a second set of SDE stuff - that will be very resalable at least if I don't use them or give them as a gift - But I'm not betting on having them as a gift for this Christmas.
DaveC wrote: It's funny Dentry Calico Kate and Iron chef are the reason I decided not to drop SNC in the end they would probably cost as much to get later anyway so I might as well keep the starter - I might never use SNC but those 2 models with fit in a Void force so I can use them.
That's a good point. So I'll just stick to my current selection of every faction except Doctrine. The redone Calico Kate looks great, there's no alternate Kisa, and I'm not a fan of her big cat mount. The Doctrine faction is one that I can pickup at retail without missing anything from the kickstarter.
Thanks for helping with that decision.
And Noh are the most pleasant surprise by far! I'm probably most pleased with how they've turned out since the kickstarter's conclusion last year.
I would wish Black Diamond had a few female troopers in their rank and file troopers, their models so far are quite blunt and repetitive I will still stick to the two BD starters because the main reason I backed was for two one shot, but some variety and character would be appreciated.
Also the fact Sophia is right there in the rulebook makes her more frustrating they didn't make her available in the kickstarter.
Well besides her been included and teased in the cards.
Black Dragons made more sense with her than without her, back then, she is not included now and would break the blunt uniformity of the black diamond.
I feel the BD could use some more variety in their sculpts, or we need to see more of them, but fielding a large force especially of corps will look dull.
PsychoticStorm wrote: I would wish Black Diamond had a few female troopers in their rank and file troopers, their models so far are quite blunt and repetitive I will still stick to the two BD starters because the main reason I backed was for two one shot, but some variety and character would be appreciated.
Than you should be glad to look one page back! If you look good at the Black Diamond 2. pic you will see that one of the troopers must be female! right in front of One-Shot. Pink hair and a bigger chest!
We'll be visiting the Relic Knights factory next week to review the tools (both complete and in progress), and plan production for both the Kickstarter and retail.
Our plan is to begin production next week and gradually ramp up - we're still on track for a November ship out if everything goes according to plan.
On behalf of Soda Pop and CMoN, thank you for your patience - we're almost there!
Translation: I'm guessing this means a December at best ship date
roughly 11 weeks to finish and sign of some tools, produce the lot, ship to a port by road, wait for a ship to accept them (at a very busy time based on what we've seen for stuff coming out of china at the end of the year with other KS projects), 3-4 weeks shipping time, before negotiating US or UK customs near Xmas
PsychoticStorm wrote: I would wish Black Diamond had a few female troopers in their rank and file troopers, their models so far are quite blunt and repetitive I will still stick to the two BD starters because the main reason I backed was for two one shot, but some variety and character would be appreciated.
Than you should be glad to look one page back! If you look good at the Black Diamond 2. pic you will see that one of the troopers must be female! right in front of One-Shot. Pink hair and a bigger chest!
That's Sophia Drake I was discussing about.
So far I feel Black Diamond look the most blunt looking of the factions.
I'm starting to become skeptical of receiving my stuff in November. If all of the tooling isn't even finished yet, how can they get everything shipped to the backers in November? Of course, they may work like madmen to get it done, but didn't some of the Reaper stuff take a few weeks to float over? I'm not sure on this timeline.
Sinful Hero wrote: I'm starting to become skeptical of receiving my stuff in November. If all of the tooling isn't even finished yet, how can they get everything shipped to the backers in November? Of course, they may work like madmen to get it done, but didn't some of the Reaper stuff take a few weeks to float over? I'm not sure on this timeline.
They're following the "gradual pushback" instead of "honest huge delay" policy.
Our plan is to begin production next week and gradually ramp up - we're still on track for a November ship out if everything goes according to plan.
Sure sounds like a Q1 Shipping Special to me!
Agreed here... unfortunately there's a few I'm involved with that I think will slip to 2014, too. Ah well, it's not like I don't have other projects to work on
Think of how much more our investment will have grown by then. Our models will have doubled or tripled in number! And they'll be made of the finest resin, with the greatest detail.
Nothing as satisfying as delayed gratification. Ah.
I hate to say it, but I have pretty much forgotten about this one - and continue to forget about it unless this thread gets updated or Kickstarter sends something out.
I'm still looking forward to it, and I'm happy to see that CMON has plans to keep it alive, and growing and developing new things for it but, like many other late Kickstarters, it has fallen off of my radar.
Of course, I pledge for far fewer Kickstarters now than I did about a year ago...
The factory visit was quite useful in nailing down remaining issues, as well as inspecting the molds and examining the test shots. Here are some phone pics of an assembled test shot Sebastien Cross (note the scroll work on the armor and text on the shield), a Noh monster (to be released), as well as some mold pictures we took. We've decided to go with a lighter color plastic since it'll be easier to prime.
We'll be back when production is in full swing to take more pictures of finished models and steal some personal samples off the line!
also reports were initially that this would be PVC rather than styrene
(although since it's taken so long to get this far they might have caught up with the other CMON KS Wrath of Kings and be utilising mainly PVC plus ABS for detail bits
And unless they air freight from china then 6-8 weeks will be lost in transit. They also haven't even finished refining the moulds let alone started production. It has to be said if they can keep the same level of detail in the Sebastian in the production minis across the range I will be happy with a bit more of a wait. However what I would prefer is that spm give people a proper heads up this time rather than just wait til the last minute to tell people "oops we screwed up again!".
Well, with 75+ days to go, if there's going to be a delay, I don't think we'll know about it for a while.
I agree with you in that I'd rather know sooner rather than later, and yes, much like Kingdom Death's delay was received well (enough), if the detail concerns are shown to not be a concern, I think most will be...OK with yet another delay.
Of course if they actually give a crap they could eat the cost to air freight them. But then they would actually have had to actually start production by now.
UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote: Of course if they actually give a crap they could eat the cost to air freight them. But then they would actually have had to actually start production by now.
I'm sorry, but you could give as many craps as mother Theresa and air freighting that to the US still wouldn't make sense.
It's not so late as you think: after the huge delay was announced they allowed people to reopen the pledge manager. I still haven't decided on my final factions!
Buzzsaw wrote: It's not so late as you think: after the huge delay was announced they allowed people to reopen the pledge manager. I still haven't decided on my final factions!
Kaleb wrote:Where the hell are our Relic Knights pledges?
Soda Pop Miniatures wrote:Hello Kaleb! We are on track for Shipping Relic Knights by the projected date. CoolMiniOrNot is heading that up and if you have any questions, please contact them here - kickstarter@coolminiornot.com
Kaleb wrote:Where the hell are our Relic Knights pledges?
Soda Pop Miniatures wrote:Hello Kaleb! We are on track for Shipping Relic Knights by the projected date. CoolMiniOrNot is heading that up and if you have any questions, please contact them here - kickstarter@coolminiornot.com
cincydooley wrote: And that date is what at this point? I sincerely have no idea.
Relic Knights wrote:Update #92
Sep 4, 2013
Factory visit and production planning
28 comments
We'll be visiting the Relic Knights factory next week to review the tools (both complete and in progress), and plan production for both the Kickstarter and retail.
Our plan is to begin production next week and gradually ramp up - we're still on track for a November ship out if everything goes according to plan.
On behalf of Soda Pop and CMoN, thank you for your patience - we're almost there!
Kaleb wrote:Where the hell are our Relic Knights pledges?
Soda Pop Miniatures wrote:Hello Kaleb! We are on track for Shipping Relic Knights by the projected date. CoolMiniOrNot is heading that up and if you have any questions, please contact them here - kickstarter@coolminiornot.com
Well, that's good news.(if true)
CMON have never missed a deadline and have always been great at communicating about delays well before any deadlines are missed.
Sorry for the long pause while we were working out all the variables, we've been working hard on getting all the info together for everyone,
First of, this project is by far the largest we've ever handled, in terms of the sheer number of different product SKUs (71). For example, there were multiple questions from the printers to Soda Pop and this required sorting out in detail to minimize any possibility of errors at production. The QC process has therefore been more laborious, but the consensus has been better to get that right than rush it. At this point, we expect to finish production sometime in November.
Second, because of the large number of SKUs, it's going to be extremely easy for a 3rd party fulfillment house to miss something or mess it up for each of your individual orders if you are in the EU since these guys aren't as familiar as we are with Relic Knights.
So the fulfillment plan is threefold -
1. Complete production on the Kickstarter quantities in November
2a. USA - airship the Kickstarter quantities into our warehouse for USA, where they will be kitted and distributed as normal.
2b. EU - fly a small team to China to supervise kitting of each individual EU package (working with our factory partners there) so there will be no packing cock ups, then airship the completed packages to the EU for distribution. Or in simpler terms, we will pack, seal and address your packages at the factory, then post it from within the EU, and that means everyone in the EU will get shipped at the same time.
2c. Asia-Pacific - We will kit out these packages similar to what we're doing with the EU, this will mean Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand, Hong Kong, Taiwan and China will ship from China instead, rather than the USA which will reduce the round trip time considerably.
Our current goal is to have all shipping complete by December - and we'll update you with shots of the full production packages as we go along. Sorry for the long wait; the models are sweet and will be worth it!
so they are going to spend a considerable chunk of cash on lots and lots of airfreight with a small slippage on starting shipping, well done CMON
I suspect the air shipping is actually CMON, as Rivet Wars (also a CMON game shipping in Nov) posted an update outlining the exact same shipping procedures
UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote: Of course if they actually give a crap they could eat the cost to air freight them. But then they would actually have had to actually start production by now.
I'm sorry, but you could give as many craps as mother Theresa and air freighting that to the US still wouldn't make sense.
UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote: Of course if they actually give a crap they could eat the cost to air freight them. But then they would actually have had to actually start production by now.
I'm sorry, but you could give as many craps as mother Theresa and air freighting that to the US still wouldn't make sense.
I think another possible explanation is that the models DO look great, and if they can get them out there faster, the results for Wrath of Kings will be much, much better.
Alpharius wrote: I think another possible explanation is that the models DO look great, and if they can get them out there faster, the results for Wrath of Kings will be much, much better.
Maybe?
Could explain why the WoK pledge manager hasn't gone up yet.
Truth be told, I think it has less to do with Soda pop and more to do with CMoN.
Alpharius wrote: I think another possible explanation is that the models DO look great, and if they can get them out there faster, the results for Wrath of Kings will be much, much better.
Maybe?
Thats actually a pretty interesting idea. With how much stuff I'll be getting from both of these kickstarters I hope it's true.
IMPORTANT: Finalise your address by 10th November (especially if you're in Europe)
"As we are entering the final stages of Relic Knights production, please ensure your address is correct and up to date no later than November 10th.
This is very important - this is a very large and complex project so announced in our previous update we will be sending a team near the factory to pack your orders before transshipping them to Europe / USA / Asia Pacific for redistribution. That means if we miss this window, your rewards will ship from our default location in the USA and won't go out with the first batch (which we are planning to mass ship together)."
Remember kids in Europe, if your address is wrong you'll end up having it re-shipped from the USA and have to pay those wicked Tax men!
Some very nice WIPs/finished greens were linked to on the official forums, from the blog of sculptor Jason Hendricks (follow the links for much larger images, and give the guy some nice feedback!);
Noh Girls Allowed!; Marikan-To the archer and the Noh Empire Serpent priestess. I think he did a great job with both pieces; I hadn't had great hopes for Marikan, and she really looks to have come out great.
Noh Dragon; The... Noh Dragon? I know it has a different name that I am blanking on.
so they are going to spend a considerable chunk of cash on lots and lots of airfreight with a small slippage on starting shipping, well done CMON
(although stuff in the Xmas post, shudder!)
Christmas freight really isn't all that bad - here at least. It seems that most carriers add on more flights and humans to their workforces, and we have some Saturday deliveries here as well over that period (which we normally don't have).
I'd also suggest that sending the stuff from China to the EU and from China direct to Oceanic backers will save them a significant amount of money over sending it from within the US - not cost more! So it's a good thing on several levels.
Hello everyone,
We know you are all patiently waiting for news, thank you so much for your support with us through this process,
To ensure that this project is delivered with the quality expected both by us and by you, we are doing final quality checks on the production. To give you a sense of the massive scale of this endeavor this production run encompasses the 272 page full color rulebook, and over 210,000 boxed products with almost 500,000 miniatures, plus all of their game cards. Needless to say any error at this critical stage is something we are being extra careful to avoid. We want nothing less than to bring Relic Knights to neon blasting life.
In our review, we have encountered a problem with our base inserts and tokens which are in need of some tooling adjustments to get them done to meet our quality expectations and obligations to our kickstarter backers. While they are finalizing those elements, we are taking that time to address a few sizing issues with final packaging we caught at the last minute. After these final tweaks are done, we should be able to begin assembling your individual orders and getting them out to you and will update again when we begin.
Thank you again for your patience. Like you, we are extremely excited to have the Relic Knights universe brought to our tabletops - the models are pretty much done, so please enjoy this video of the production models, almost the entire range is in this video, be sure to watch it till the end!
New update with a spin-y video of the actual production minis
I predict some gasps of dismay from folk who didn't get them when folk see how big the Doctrine Academy Guards turned out to be, they're bound to be a lot, lot more at retail.
Looking at the video throws up a few more like that too
the rest of the update is below
Hello everyone,
We know you are all patiently waiting for news, thank you so much for your support with us through this process,
To ensure that this project is delivered with the quality expected both by us and by you, we are doing final quality checks on the production. To give you a sense of the massive scale of this endeavor this production run encompasses the 272 page full color rulebook, and over 210,000 boxed products with almost 500,000 miniatures, plus all of their game cards. Needless to say any error at this critical stage is something we are being extra careful to avoid. We want nothing less than to bring Relic Knights to neon blasting life.
In our review, we have encountered a problem with our base inserts and tokens which are in need of some tooling adjustments to get them done to meet our quality expectations and obligations to our kickstarter backers. While they are finalizing those elements, we are taking that time to address a few sizing issues with final packaging we caught at the last minute. After these final tweaks are done, we should be able to begin assembling your individual orders and getting them out to you and will update again when we begin.
Thank you again for your patience. Like you, we are extremely excited to have the Relic Knights universe brought to our tabletops - the models are pretty much done, so please enjoy this video of the production models, almost the entire range is in this video, be sure to watch it till the end!
There are a lot of bent spears and guns, but there is also an odd look of things being hurriedly assembled: the Marie Claude cosplay looks like her head is put on with blu tack (as does the Serpent priestess' arm), and a number of the figures seem to be listing dangerously to one side.
If you stop the video you can see loads more blue tac so it's certainly hot off the press
and I'm actually pleased they didn't try to straighten (trivial to do with hot water) anything,
it's certainly production stuff which is what we were after
(hopefully they or Soda Pop will stick it on you tube so we can get some higher res screen grabs to check out the mould lines, KS mangles the videos too much to make it worthwhile for this as is)
I also wonder if I see a hint of 2 different colours of plastic ? If so is it just different runs or did they do a bit ABS as well as they plan on doing to get better sharp details on the weapons and twiddly bits for wrath of kings
Wasn't sure what I thought about that video. Seemed too blurry and quick.
Then I remembered I could change the video quality setting and pause sections of it.
In short many parts have thick roast beef mold lines. Some of it doesn't seem to run across the entire miniature but I can't be sure as I only have so many angles to look at.
Anything cast in a two-part mold will have mold lines but some of those are looking a bit more prominent than I had hoped. As long as they aren't misalignments most look easy enough to clean up. It all trims away the same.
The mold line running down the Royal Wrecker's face is very nasty though. If I get a model like that I might have to ask for it to be replaced.
By not mentioning the word 'delay' once! They're falling back on the classic "don't mention anything specific" method of breaking bad news.
I don't know why the entire process has just made me so angry, but it really really has. We're not being treated like backers, given an insight into the development of the system we helped to create, and we're not being treated like customers either. There's some value in being able to walk into a shop or phone/email support and actually get some answers, after all...
Joyboozer wrote: Actually, this is the exact same level of "service" I received from CMON after placing an order, they really just don't seem to give a gak.
You're blaming the wrong person, bro. Your ire should be primarily directed at Soda Pop.
Hey guys! I hear that Palladium Books teamed up with some Soda Pop people in the form of Ninja Division, and mentioned their previous awesome and successful KS campaign for Relic Knights!
How's eve...ry... thing.... going.
Oh.
Oh no.
Whelp, this might help explain a bunch of issues we're having there.
Forar wrote: Hey guys! I hear that Palladium Books teamed up with some Soda Pop people in the form of Ninja Division, and mentioned their previous awesome and successful KS campaign for Relic Knights!
How's eve...ry... thing.... going.
Oh.
Oh no.
Whelp, this might help explain a bunch of issues we're having there.
At least it's not a 6+ month delay yet.
Only 2.
So far.
I have heard various things about this, that some of Soda Pop's staff either left or was partitioned off in a new division; is there somewhere that the whole story can be read?
Dais wrote: Anything cast in a two-part mold will have mold lines but some of those are looking a bit more prominent than I had hoped. As long as they aren't misalignments most look easy enough to clean up. It all trims away the same.
The mold line running down the Royal Wrecker's face is very nasty though. If I get a model like that I might have to ask for it to be replaced.
I have no issue with mold lines. Have done it many years in various materials.
But this material used is by far the worse thing I have ever encountered. I always thought metal should have been an extinct material for our hobby starting in the late 90s.
I take that back. This stuff is by far worse than metal.
Mold lines and this material do not mix well. Fact I am able to clean up a box of Warlord games' romans faster than 1 Sedition Wars strain model is very telling.
I have heard various things about this, that some of Soda Pop's staff either left or was partitioned off in a new division; is there somewhere that the whole story can be read?
They didn't leave, but there's only 3 primary employees to begin with. And it's not that they were "partitioned off"; rather they prioritized the Robotech KS over Relic Knights, and due to that, deadlines were missed by soda pop that forced the project timeline to slip so badly.
I am getting a little bothered by these delays too. I have lost pretty much all the excitement I had for this project, and am seriously considering selling off my pledge to fund my cocaine and Privateer Press habits.
Though unlike Ritides, only if I can make a profit
Christ, look at the project comments!
I think I finally understand the mind of the white knight. They actually rage even harder at problems, but have to redirect that rage on everyone but the actual cause, because they love them and they are perfect.
Joyboozer wrote: Christ, look at the project comments!
I think I finally understand the mind of the white knight. They actually rage even harder at problems, but have to redirect that rage on everyone but the actual cause, because they love them and they are perfect.
Joyboozer wrote: Christ, look at the project comments!
I think I finally understand the mind of the white knight. They actually rage even harder at problems, but have to redirect that rage on everyone but the actual cause, because they love them and they are perfect.
I just want you to blame the right people.
And you have succeeded, I shall don the pantaloons of apology and make amends to c'mon, then tear them off to expose the ladies underwear of rage and give soda poop/ ninja derision the disrespect they deserve.
If that video is the final indicator of the quality control we can expect from this project, I'm a bit worried. There were some good looking models and some not so good looking ones. In particular Dark Space Fiametta stood out as a bad cast (her waist is really warped/off).
Bets on when we can expect shipping to begin? I'm going with Q2.
Joyboozer wrote: Christ, look at the project comments!
I think I finally understand the mind of the white knight. They actually rage even harder at problems, but have to redirect that rage on everyone but the actual cause, because they love them and they are perfect.
I just want you to blame the right people.
And you have succeeded, I shall don the pantaloons of apology and make amends to c'mon, then tear them off to expose the ladies underwear of rage and give soda poop/ ninja derision the disrespect they deserve.
Joyboozer wrote: Christ, look at the project comments!
I think I finally understand the mind of the white knight. They actually rage even harder at problems, but have to redirect that rage on everyone but the actual cause, because they love them and they are perfect.
There are a few in particular that seem to have only the most tangential connection to our reality. What's amazing about it from a psychological perspective is how bitter and arrogant they get, pretty much in proportion to how disappointing the news is.
Now, I don't think that ultimately RK will be a complete disaster, but the reputation of the company for raising funds has been, I would say, permanently diminished. Which, from everything I have been hearing, for a small company is a huge loss right now. Being cut off from running kickstarters means that you're in the twentieth century while your competitors are in the twenty-first.
I mean, at a certain point companies like Kingdom Death and Dreamforge are going to hit the Kickstarter well again, having learned lessons and developed a community. Barring some unforseen calamity between now and then, we can reasonably expect that they will have great success.
CMoN on the other hand is now so well regarded that Prodos allowed people to have their packages shipped directly from England rather then have them handled by CMON. Soda Pop? When a company can't bother to post to their own forums[i], it's a bad sign. Heck, even Studio McVey in the bad times had a very visible presence on their own forums.
Joyboozer wrote: Christ, look at the project comments!
I think I finally understand the mind of the white knight. They actually rage even harder at problems, but have to redirect that rage on everyone but the actual cause, because they love them and they are perfect.
I just want you to blame the right people.
How do we know that Soda Pop is to blame here? Just curious, because CMoN has had at least one other KS fiasco (Sedition Wars) they were attached to.
Joyboozer wrote: Christ, look at the project comments!
I think I finally understand the mind of the white knight. They actually rage even harder at problems, but have to redirect that rage on everyone but the actual cause, because they love them and they are perfect.
I just want you to blame the right people.
How do we know that Soda Pop is to blame here? Just curious, because CMoN has had at least one other KS fiasco (Sedition Wars) they were attached to.
~Eric
I wouldn't say that CMON is completely innocent, but it is worth pointing out that in the Sedition Wars fiasco, McVey went around CMON and commented on their own forums. Soda Pop has been unwilling to do so.
Joyboozer wrote: Christ, look at the project comments!
I think I finally understand the mind of the white knight. They actually rage even harder at problems, but have to redirect that rage on everyone but the actual cause, because they love them and they are perfect.
I just want you to blame the right people.
How do we know that Soda Pop is to blame here? Just curious, because CMoN has had at least one other KS fiasco (Sedition Wars) they were attached to.
~Eric
Because it's truth. Like Buzz says, CMoN isn't blameless, as they are the publisher. But all of the missed timelines for this project have direct correlation to Soda Pop missing 3D render deadlines, causing the project to miss it's scheduled production window, all of which were influenced by Soda Pop's creation of Ninja Division and the partnering with Palladium for the Robotech KS. Quite simply, soda pop prioritized robotech over relic knights and left CMoN hanging in the wind. CMoN and it's senior members are too professional to throw Soda Pop under the bus, even though they should.
It's also CMoN fully paying to airship all the product to the US, not Soda Pop, which was a costly decision to still attempt to get the product delivered as soon as it can be.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Additionally, you'll also note that their only 100% CMoN product (Guilds) shipped early, Zombicide Season 1 shipped early, and Zombicide S2 was only barely late, despite having to send out 10,000 unique packages.
Some numbers to think about: Updates #1-54 took place during the campaign itself. Add onto that the single photo "12 days of Christmas" updates and 66/96 (so more then two-thirds) are accounted for in that, and the first 74 updates are in 2012.
Update #79 "New firm ship date - November", not a joke, the actual title of the update.
Update #87 "Production update - proceeding as planned". Again, the actual title of the update, and the first line? "Tooling is progressing as planned, and we're still anticipating shipping out of the factory in October and shipping from our warehouses in November."
Update #94(!) "Production update and shipping planning", tells us (at the end of October, less then 45 days ago) "Our current goal is to have all shipping complete by December - and we'll update you with shots of the full production packages as we go along. Sorry for the long wait; the models are sweet and will be worth it!"
Update #95 "Confirm your address before November 10th" because "we are entering the final stages of Relic Knights production".
Oh man, it's going to be sweeeet!
Update #96 "Production model 360s, and final tweaks" gives us the nebulousness news that "After these final tweaks are done, we should be able to begin assembling your individual orders and getting them out to you and will update again when we begin."
So, in Update 95, you better have your stuff together, because as far as they say in Update #94, "Our current goal is to have all shipping complete by December".
Let's put everything else aside: on October 25 things are full steam ahead and everything will be done, everything shipped by the end of December. November 5 they "are entering the final stages of Relic Knights production".
Think about that: just over three weeks ago the line is that everything is fine and full steam ahead. Seriously, this is the plan (in part);
"1. Complete production on the Kickstarter quantities in November
2a. USA - airship the Kickstarter quantities into our warehouse for USA, where they will be kitted and distributed as normal."
What point can be drawn from all this? Is it really possible that Soda Pop is so oblivious that they didn't know they were going to be unable to meet their deadline until two days before the end of November?
Seriously, when you look back at the updates it just is so blatant that you have to wonder what the heck they are thinking.
Guess why I didn't bother with Robotech, or anything else associated with the players in this.... if an when my RK stuff gets here I'll think about what to do with it.
Sadly, I have no confidence in my main supplier of plastic/resin crack either. Battlefront and supply and distribution is of the same low quality :(
From what they've said there are two sticking points,
bases (presumable the scenic bases unlocked in the KS) and packaging
My suspicion on the bases is that the test shots supplied by the factory looked ok,
but either the factory cherry picked test samples from a not very successful tool and CMON have realised it or the tests were OK but when they ramped things up to production speed things started to go wrong
My suspicion is that it's all a load of bull. We had to have our addresses locked in by the 10th because that's when the Soda Pop packing experts were to arrive in China to oversee packing. Took them 3 weeks of being there (and doing no packing at all, apparently) to notice that some bits aren't looking good enough?
Buzzsaw wrote: Seriously, when you look back at the updates it just is so blatant that you have to wonder what the heck they are thinking.
It's funny, but you see a similar progression with Robotech.
It wasn't until the September 26th update that they officially changed the target from "Fall" to "December", to "January" on October 12th, and "February (tentative) as of November 1st. So in 5 weeks the release date moved 2 months. We're actually going backwards at this point.
RK may have been held up by RRT, but it seems possible RRT is being held up by RK too. Obviously you guys and gals have been waiting a lot longer, and I do hope your boxes are in the mail soon.
We (RRT folks) haven't even gotten the "it's in production!' update yet, and as the days tick by, the likelihood of them producing hundreds of thousands of figures, performing QA, shipping them across an ocean and firing them into the mail system in the next 3 months looks less and less likely.
Edit: while sparse, that comment section does indeed have a handful of real gems.
Interestingly, the folks at Soda Pop have apparently decided that SNAFU is not the best way to go into another calender year, so Deke is answering questions on the SPM forums here.
Here are his answers so far;
Spoiler:
SPM_Deke wrote:***** 12/4/2013 *****
Question:
At what point value do you think Relic Knights is best at? Most games can be run at many point values, but is there an ideal for competitive play?
Answer:
Probably due to my own love for Warhammer Fantasy (We play other games too!) I am a total sucker for huge armies. So I like high point values. However, I think most people will find 35 and 50 point battles their favorite. They are super fast to play and allow a lot of rounds to be played in an event. Which we are fans of.
Question:
In the Rulebook we have currently, there are multiple Traits that don't currently have models. What are your plans for making models for those traits? Are these going to be in the main rulebook, or future expansions? I especially like the sound of Castellan, a mecha for the Paladins.
Answer:
When the full book comes out all the traits should have a model with them. Some are future proofing for things we want down the road. Since traits largely have no game effect other than classifying a unit, they are a great way for us to give you a glimpse of the inner organization of the factions.
Question:
Are both Austrican the Ogre and Kisa really the same race?
Answer:
They are indeed! Tonnerian’s were one of the founding races of the United Planetary Alliance and The Six Peers.
Question:
Will there be any special promotions for retailers to take advantage of early on in the product release? If so, is there any information on them, currently?
Answer:
We are currently working on that with CMON. As our publishers they will handle distribution into retail and we will help support them with things such as organized play and marketing materials.
Question:
Since you have no "no store employees allowed" policy for your "civilian" game reps. What is a store supposed to do if the only person that wants to be one also works at that, or another, store in the area?
Answer:
I’m assuming you’re referring to CMON’s Legion program. They handle all aspects of that. We will be rolling out our own Volunteer program next year and will provide details when that happens. As to your specific concern I will kick it to Ross our Community Manager to make sure we have that situation accounted for in our plan.
Question:
Do you foresee any balance concerns with the Void/Prismatic armies? Access to multiple faction's uniques allows for a lot of strange combos.
Answer:
They do indeed create some interesting armies, and will always fulfill a niche role designed for thematic play. We try hard to keep things fun to play and balanced on the field, but since this is a first edition are under no illusions and know that all of you will find situations that we and our playtesters never even dreamed of. We will do our best to keep an up-to-date errata and FAQ, as well as tournament formats to cater to players of all styles.
Question:
When Myth wanted to ship their kickstarter early their accountant told them any stock they had on hand in December that they hadn't gotten shipped out by January would get a ridiculous tax added to it; since you have nothing on hand I don't think you would get hit with this, but does CMoN run the risk of incurring these tax charges and passing them along to SPM?
Answer:
I’m not familiar with Myth’s tax situation. Such things are handled by our financial officers internally.
Question:
How often does SPM communicate with CMoN, and how?
Answer:
Since they are our publishers we are in constant communication with them, primarily through e-mail and Skype. Depending on what is going on that can be weekly to constantly throughout the day. In general though they have their duties and we have ours and we rely on each other to do our jobs.
Question:
Will SPM continue the relationship with CMoN into the retail release and beyond as your publisher?
Answer:
Yes. CMON will be the publisher for Relic Knights.
Question:
Do you anticipate there being any changes in communication upon the successful Kickstarter distribution and retail release?
Answer:
Once Kickstarter has been distributed and Relic Knights is in retail communication will change. Right now we are focused on just getting the game out and most communication revolves around that (as this massive Q&A attests). When Relic Knights is out communication will be about the Hobby, Events, Organized Play, etc. All the fun stuff we can do with our toys!
Question:
How large is your full-time staff at SPM? Part-time, and in what respect? Do you see that changing in the near future?
Answer:
Soda Pop is owned by John, Chris, and myself. As of the middle of this year we were finally able to all go full time and are extremely fortunate to have the opportunity for that. Behind us we have a small army of talented and dedicated freelance and contract artists, designers, etc without whom we could not do what we do. As far as expanding, we are always looking to push beyond our boundaries and grow as the opportunity presents itself.
Question:
What has been the most important lesson you've learned from Kickstarting Relic Knights so far?
Answer:
Don’t get swept up in the excitement and grow the project too big and too fast. Make sure the project is as close to done as you financially can make it before even going to Kickstarter. We are not the only game studio who has learned that post kickstarter can have many hurdles to cross. You want to be prepared as possible before even beginning.
Question:
What exactly was the issue that nobody caught on the tokens and base inserts until right at shipping time? Misshapen in some way? Is the current mold just being repaired or is another one having to be done from scratch?
Answer:
CMON overseas the manufacturing, so we are limited on specifics. When China went to production they discovered an issue that required a new mold to be finished this month.
Question:
My first question is, would you guys be willing to put of the pdfs of the full rules book? I'm speaking for myself here but I think it would a long way to regenerating hype for the game.
Answer:
The full rules for the game and cards for the Kickstarter models are already available for download on our Media Page
Question:
In that same line of thought, would you guy be willing to run another sample game for the community? The game has come a long way since the last time you guys made game play videos.
Answer:
As soon as we have our models we will absolutely do battle reports. We’re also looking forward to seeing yours.
Question:
What exactly is the relationship between SPM and CMoN in regards to Relic Knight? At times, it has seemed neither is willing to provide a full explanation, and blamed the other (forgive me, but even some of your answers reference CMoN as the 'keepers of the key). Why is this?
Answer:
We understand that the relationship has been a bit confusing. The publisher/design studio relationship, while common in video games and books publishing, is pretty new in tabletop games and as one of the first studios CMON signed we’ve both grown and learned as we’ve progressed. Let me see if I can shed a bit of clarity.
Soda Pop Miniatures is the design studio. It is our responsibility to make a game, including all of the art, sculpts, print files, etc and deliver it to CMON. It is also our responsibility to foster a community and make sure our customer base is excited to buy the product. CMON is the publisher. Once they have a finished product from us it is their responsibility implement and manage manufacturing, warehouse the product, then promote and sell it to distributors, retailers, and their community.
Question:
With all the troubles, why has SPM pulled away from the comments section of KS, and to a small extent, the entire Relic Knight KS? Is it the animosity some of us (yes, I am a backer, and a vocal one) have shown?
Answer:
CMON had their people looking after the Kickstarter. Nonetheless we should have used our own channels such as facebook and our website to keep in better contact with you. Something we are working hard to rectify. We have also requested access and will be engaging personally through the Kickstarter from now on. This however will remain my (Deke’s) definitive Q&A thread. Ross will be our main man on the Kickstarter front from here out.
Question:
As it has, in the past, been a matter of debate in the comments section of the KS, if some of the non-KS miniatures had been omitted during the process (mamaro-to and the Noh Dragon come to mind), would the KS be fulfilled at this time? Were these models planned from the start or part of the 'after-party' as it were?
Answer:
These models were planned from the start and did not affect the development time in any significant way. Their sculpts were simply done earlier and thus it was actually more efficient to have them become absorbed into the process. The time of the Kickstarter has taken has entirely been a matter of scope of the project. Your overwhelming support almost doubled our line up of models. Which absolutely blew up the previous time projections we had. We have almost 80 SKUs and are doing an absolutely massive print run. Even a company the size of GW doesn’t release 80 brand new SKUs all at once. In hindsight, if we did the Kickstarter again it would be a smaller one that we could deliver faster, and then open up the ability do another one to get you the additional content.
Question:
When the six-month delay was announced, there was mention of a .pdf art book being emailed to backers. Is there a timeframe for its release? I'm a sucker for artbooks.
Answer:
I am too! In fact I’ve been going through the art book today. It’s just about done and will be sent out to you all this month.
Question:
Can you give us some more detailed pictures of the final production models, the 360 video was way too blurry and spinned too fast to see the details. Maybe a group shot of each faction.
Answer:
Soda Pop doesn't have final models in hand yet either, and China still has our masters. We're waiting just like you! We'll contact CMON and see if they can provide more pictures of the complete models. Once they're in our hands though we will have pictures up as fast as we can take them.
Question:
Chinese new year is coming up and can shift production up to 2 months back; is this also affecting the RK models or are they produced before the new year?
Answer:
Our understanding is that everything will wrapped up before Chinese New Year even becomes a consideration.
Question:
Is there any possibility of you guys having a presence at any shows in the UK?
Answer:
We are working on logistics to try to get to Salute next year. Hopefully we can make that happen.
Question:
Will there be a set release schedule for the future models after the KS has been shipped (ie 1 model a month or 1 model for each faction every 2 months) - I must have the Dagon for Noh.
Answer:
Yes there will be a set release schedule. We'll provide more details regarding it once we hit retail.
Question:
My question is if the story will have a progression to it. For example, will questing knights eventually become relic knights?
Answer:
The plan is for the story to move forward as your Knights battle for the fate of the Last Galaxy. Those Questing Knights who prove themselves worthy of a Relic to their cyphers may indeed become Relic Knights.
Question:
I pledged for an Anime Battle Board on the Games & Gears Kickstarter. Can you describe how the base inserts look like? Do they fit with the board?
Answer:
Glad to hear it! We enjoyed the opportunity to design a board for them. We think it turned out really sharp. We can't wait to paint some of our own. While we did not design the base inserts and Anime Battle Board to be identical, they do both share a strong sci-fi/tech element that we felt worked well for any model from the Relic Knights line. With matching colors the two will blend well, if not match identically.
Question:
The 6 month delay popped up in the last 3 weeks before shipping was supposed to start?
Answer:
This was a case of us finding out there was a chance of a delay and working towards trying prevent it until the bitter end (as explained in my answer below). In that case an argument can be made (and has been by many on the internet) that if we knew a delay was even remotely possible we should have notified the backers immediately. At the time we did not know how long the delay would be and felt that people would prefer an update with a more concrete timeframe. So we waited until we had notification of a timeframe from China. This made it so the update came closer to the estimated ship month than some people would have liked. We could probably debate endlessly if that was the right call. At this point the decision has been made and those who felt we should have announced earlier, even without a timeframe, have made themselves well heard. Our job is to move forward and make sure Relic Knights gets in your hands.
Question:
I was wondering if CMON has been considering adding someone in the "community manager" role?
Answer:
That's really a question for CMON. On our end Soda Pop has hired Ross Thompson as our community manager. (Waves at SPM_Ross.) He has been diligently answering your facebook questions and e-mails to info@sodapopminiatures.com. He's also who pointed me towards this thread. He has lots of great community events he's planning for us as Relic Knights progresses. Give Ross your love and he'll make sure you're taken care of.
***** 12/3/2013 *****
Question:
Can we see a picture of how the minis are packaged?
Answer:
I will check with CMON to see if we can get some pictures of that.
Question:
About how many models are built for the general release and not the Kickstarter. We know of a couple (Mamaro-To, Sophia Drake, Asger Faust, Jeanne Romme, a couple extras)? Will Black Diamond get their uniques that way?
Answer:
Every faction has a handful of nonKickstarter models. Off the top of my head its about 2-3 per faction.
Question:
What non-kickstarter model was the most exciting for you to design? Was it conceptual or mechanical?
Answer:
Mamaro-To. I love Mamaro-To. Writing his fiction and rules was a pure joy. He's not a Knight but is the Grand Warlord of Dragon Fleet To, so he wields considerable power. He also has no small amount of animosity towards Kasaro-To for his exalted position in the Dragon Fleets. In the fiction Mamaro-To is just brutal. To top it off our Creative Director, John Cadice, brought him to life in the art and sculpt in an exceptional manner. He had our artists and sculptors create a Noh unique that is just breathtaking.
Question:
For the main book, about how much of it is "crunch" and how much is "fluff"?
Answer:
It is a 272 page book. Approximately 50 pages of it is pure game rules. The main storyline is approx 50 pages. There is a 16 page universe primer. Then each faction has about 10-12 pages of faction history, plus 10-12 pages of unit rules and unit fiction. I'm sure my math is messed up in there with all the approximates. Lets just say there is a lot of stuff.
Question:
What is the pricing structure for the starter sets post-kickstarter? Is it still going to be about $50, or will it be more?
Answer:
I will need to check on this one in the morning.
Question:
If you were to play only one faction for a long time, what it would be and why?
Answer:
Noh and Shattered Sword. I will never be able to decide between them. I have always had a love for monsters. The Noh was our opportunity to design an entire monstrous race that was truly savage without being dumb brutes. With their own harsh warrior code dictated by their god, Nozuki, they are fierce, brutal, and cunning. I love Shattered Sword because in many ways they are the mirror opposites of the Noh. Shattered Sword avoids the self-righteous, goody-two-shoes, paladin cliche. Truly honorable and given to self sacrifice in the pursuit of the defense of others. They have kept the universe safe for millennia and even in the face of the Darkspace Calamity they struggle for the preservation of life above all things. (I know, I cheated with two!)
Question:
What do you think Relic Knights fans have to look forward to in the future? More Questing Knights, Relic Knights, Uniques, Squads, or something a lot crazier? Warmachine Style Epic Models (especially with a Questing Knights getting Relics)? Or is this far too early to think about?
Answer:
Too early to tip our hand just yet. We have some dreams though....
Question:
Is there a difference (fluff-wise) between the power of different factions? I'd imagine Cerci is weaker being basically a racing team whereas Noh is an entire empire.
Answer:
Short answer is yes. Cerci Prime, even though it is an entire planet, would stand no chance against the combined might of the Noh Empire (or even the Star Nebula Corsairs if you could actually manage to point them all in the same direction). However, what is important are the Knights. They are the champions chosen by Esper, and ultimately it will be they who decide the fate of the Last Galaxy.
Question:
Will there be short stories showing the different characters in the books? I know many games do this, and I love seeing my favorite characters in action.
Answer:
One of the big challenges (and goals) for me was trying to get as many characters represented in the fiction as I could. There are a lot of characters! Many see at least some action. For those who don't or those who see only brief "screen time" rest assured they are taking part in events and we'll provide you with glimpse of their stories as the universe unfolds.
Question:
Why does SPM/CMON always wait until the last possible second to announce the delay even though it should have been clear weeks/months beforehand?
Answer:
Sadly, it's never so cut and dried as that. Sometimes, things that cause a delay will literally come up when they do a test just before production. In those cases we have pretty much no knowledge or warning. Other times, there may be a worry that this or that item may not work right, but it appears it can be corrected without affecting timelines only to find out later that wasn't the case and BAM! delay. In those cases we're working as hard as we can to try to keep any issues from becoming a delay right until the bitter end. When we have something definite we let you know. Unfortunately, that can lead to notices that appear near deadlines.
Question:
Who do I have to kill or what horrid act must I perform in order to get a Sophia figure? Want me to dress up as Harker and shill at local cons...I will. Heck I'd build a dang Diamondback suit if it would help.
Answer:
She's pretty early in the planned release cycle. You won't need to wait long to have her leading your Black Dragons into combat. Not surprisingly we are pro cosplay. A Harker outfit would be stellar. Diamondback....whoa....
Question:
Do you think that all of these delays have severely negatively impacted RK? Or do you think that the game will bounce back?
Answer:
We are not blind to the criticisms. Sometimes the internet can feel like an endless tunnel of dooooom, yet the excitement and enthusiasm we hear from fans remains overwhelmingly positive. People are ready for Relic Knights. Your passion in wanting it to "be here now" is a testament to your desire for it. It's easy to become discouraged by the delays, we understand. No one wants this more than us. We are all vested in it. Ultimately, everyone who backed the project wants it to succeed. (If they don't we have to wonder why they backed it at all!) Soda Pop will continue to keep our heads down and work through every obstruction that may come our way to make sure all of you have a game that alive and vibrant. We are committed to that. We have many plans in the works such as organized play, conventions, hobby events, and retailer support to make sure Relic Knights leaps off the starting line faster than a Hell's Belles racer. We have put a lot of heart into Relic Knights. We are confident that will shine through in every piece of art, word of fiction, and painted model.
Question:
Are you planning on having Organized play at Adepticon? If not there then what Con will debut Organized play for RK?
Answer:
We have contacted Adepticon and are hoping to run events there. We are still solidifying our con schedule for next year, but we plan on being at as many events as we can. We are also working to make sure we can provide assistance for volunteers who want to run events at cons that we can't attend ourselves. We will begin releasing specifics as events approach.
Question:
While Calico Kate doesn't always drink soda, what does she drink when she does?
Answer:
Well, she's a pirate so Grog and her favorite—Iron Chef's own special recipe for Bumbo. (It's said it can be used as an explosive that will blast through a corvette class hull with a single barrel.)
Question:
Are you in any position to make an educated guess at when shipping will start?
Answer:
Not really since we're not in control of that aspect. There was an issue with the token and base topper molds. Obviously the base topper molds are important for Kickstarter fulfillment, but the tokens are a key component of the Starter Boxes which are both Kickstarter and Retail items. Starters are a significant chunk of what people purchased. Which makes the tokens a small but surprisingly critical element and something we can't just slide on. China is working on the issue. Our understanding is that it will be a fairly fast turn around. Once we are given a specific date that CMON okays we will relay it to you.
Question:
How much sugar is needed to turn a knight into a soda pop?
Answer:
Really it depends on the type of sugar and who it is from.
Question:
How long after KS release are you expecting general release?
Answer:
Hopefully only about a month. However, shipping is going to be a huge undertaking for CMON and we need to make sure all the backers get their product first. Afterwards, we will work with CMON on establishing an official retail launch window.
Question:
Will the KS stuff be officially released across a single wave or multiple waves?
Answer:
Backers will get their rewards in a single wave. Retail release will be in multiple waves so we don't overwhelm retailers with a massive product launch. Backers really are getting an entire, fully formed, miniature game all in one fell swoop!
Question:
How long until the first wave with non-KS product?
Answer:
Most of the initial retail waves will feature Kickstarter product. However, we're working on mixing in nonKickstarter models into the mix to give you backers new things to be looking forward to as well.
Question:
Are the figures show in the video posted in the 96th update the finalized versions of the miniatures?
Answer:
That video was commissioned and produced by CMON. However, at this point in the process I'm pretty certain that, yes, they are the final models.
*****
Hello Everyone,
SPM_Ross has found me in my little development dungeon (Oh, the dungeons!) and using promises of shiny objects guided me to this thread.
Just on a base level I understand your frustration. Believe me, we share them as well. We have put an incredible amount of time, love, and coin into Relic Knights and every setback stings us every bit as badly as it does you.
I just spent a good chunk of time reading through the entire thread. You all have brought up a LOT of points. So many that I think it would be almost impossible for me to try to dig through all of them after the fact and give them the air they deserve. Instead I'm going to take the conversation forward in the form of a Question and Answer forum. Basically, shoot me your questions in this forum. I will continue to visit it every work day (M-F) until the launch of Relic Knights.
Know going in that sometime we (SPM) just don't have the answers, as we do not control all the moving pieces. However, I will answer every question I can with whatever details I can. I also won't engage with rants or accusations, even if they contain valid points. If you can't present your question politely and productively then the discussion devolves and is helpful to noone.
If I miss your question I'm not ignoring you. First check and see if your question has been answered somewhere else or if your tone was combative. If it has not or was not just restate the question. I'll be hitting these daily but I'm not spending all day on the boards. There's just too much stuff that must be done.
This Kickstarter has been immense for us. While there are things out of our hands, there are other things that were certainly within our control that we could have done better with. We're constantly learning, experimenting, and improving. In the end, we're all here because we share a love for toy soldiers, awesome anime, and a little thing called Relic Knights.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Perusing the answers, there would seem to be a persistent attempt to shift all post-design decisions (including manufacturing) to CMON. To the point that I wonder what, if any, responsibility Soda Pop sees itself having after their designs are delivered.
I followed the instructions provided and emailed cmons ks address a week ago but no reply. I'm going to log a support ticket tomorrow though if still no reply.
Basically I am not to bothered by the delay but cmon appear to have learned nothing from the sw sham and used the same company and materials for production.
I all ready have 2 boxes of unusable and unsellable minis from sw I do not need more.
In spm's defence there not really passing the buck just describing how there relationship works with cmon.
Just like sw the rk kickstarter got to big and offered too much as such cmon saw there profits getting eaten up and cut corners on production to claw some cash back.
Someone wrote:Question:
What has been the most important lesson you've learned from Kickstarting Relic Knights so far?
SPM Deke wrote:Answer:
Don’t get swept up in the excitement and grow the project too big and too fast. Make sure the project is as close to done as you financially can make it before even going to Kickstarter. We are not the only game studio who has learned that post kickstarter can have many hurdles to cross. You want to be prepared as possible before even beginning.
Huh.
Flies in the face of what some think "what Kickstarter is for", but interesting to see it out there from them.
I understand why some people want refunds on kickstarters, but it still aggravates me. A kickstarter is not a preorder- your funding a project to be completed. When a kickstarter gets massively overfunded, it gets delayed. On top of that, gak happens, such as with the tokens.
I think we should all stop saying Kickstarter isn't (ever) a pre-order.
In some cases, it is exactly that.
If businesses what to use KS and then continue to flourish afterwards, they are going to have to really focus a bit more on the 'soft' aspects of running a business - like customer service.
Eventually the "Oh, it's a Kickstarer!" excuse is going to wear thin.
Sinful Hero wrote: I understand why some people want refunds on kickstarters, but it still aggravates me. A kickstarter is not a preorder- your funding a project to be completed. When a kickstarter gets massively overfunded, it gets delayed. On top of that, gak happens, such as with the tokens.
I'm funding a project to be completed within certain expectations laid out by the company running the project. When the deliverable does not meet the quality standards the company led me to expect, and they have delayed well past reasonable expectations and been poor at communicating delays and decreased quality standards I feel very justified in letting them know it, and asking for my money back is about the only way I have of doing so and letting my message stick.
The target of your aggravation should be the company that very much fails to deliver what it said it would when it said it would.
The thing that seems most... I'm not sure that 'of concern' is right, but nothing seems better, is the description of CMON as a 'publisher', in the same vein as a software or book publisher.
That kind of a relationship has obvious advantages for Soda Pop in that they basically just have to develop the product, which is then totally the responsibility of CMON, but I struggle to see how it is any improvement for the consumer.
Compare it to other companies that are basically content providers, like Kingdom Death, or heck, JunkRobot. The conventional method is a company like this has an idea; whether it's a fully involved universe like the Kingdom Death nightmare world, or JunkRobot's focus on new style pulp artwork, which the company then realizes with contracted artists. 3d or traditional sculpts 'in-hand', the company then works with manufacturers to make sure their vision is now translated into reality and can be shipped to backers/distributors/direct customers.
The thing is that all the quality control is on the back end: getting a sculpt is one thing, getting it to be produced in the thousands with quality and care is quite another. As an aside, this is one of the things that the two JunkRobot campaigns and KD:M have shown so well; the hardest part is the translation from concept to manufactured good.
The thing of it is, in this traditional method, there is every incentive for the company to ride herd on the manufacturer. The product is their baby, their livelihood, their dream. Look at KD:M, where Poots has been so concerned by the mere possibility that a deadline won't be reached that he pushed back delivery, and used the time to add tooling for more options and add items. Or how he personally checked the sculpts to see how they would come out once paint was added to them by someone of more modest painting talent.
With this publisher model that Soda Pop and CMON are in, by contrast, all of that work, that post-campaign, post design work that Poots treats as a second job, all of that has been shifted off to CMON. Now, whatever virtues or vices CMON has, there is no dispute that Relic Knights is not the future of CMON's company. It's not CMON's livelyhood on the line. It's not CMON's baby.
From the way Deke's Q&A reads, Soda Pop has been completely cut out (by their own intention, it seems) from the back end of this process. All the questions about delays and manufacturing dump onto CMON: one gets the impression that no-one from Soda Pop has even seen any of the finished items. The questions about the 360 brought out that said video was commissioned by CMON and that Soda Had nothing to do with it!
I'm going to hit all the new questions today but this is a big one I want to address and want to make sure it doesn't get lost in the pile. Regarding the turnaround video that was released. Previously I said I wasn't certain if the video was the final sculpts since we (SPM) didn't make it, but I thought that it probably was. Like you, we were concerned with many of the mold lines that were present in those shots. We have followed up and been told, unequivocally, that those shots were from the early test mold production run. They are not the finals. We are requesting shots of the final models. From here on out the only shots that will be posted are the final shots to prevent confusion. My apologies for the confusion those shots have already caused.
Like you, we were concerned with many of the mold lines that were present in those shots. We have followed up and been told, unequivocally, that those shots were from the early test mold production run. They are not the finals. We are requesting shots of the final models.
REALLY should be in an 'official' KS update, pronto.
Unfortunately we have no evidence the mold lines are not indicative of the manufacturing process and materials used. If the Sedition Wars figures are an appropriate indicator (I seem to recall it being mentioned the same process and materials used for them are being used for Relic Knights) then we can expect mold lines very similar to those shown to be present on the final models.
Very interesting bits in the latest round of answers, most specifically this (IMO);
Question:
What level of quality control does Soda Pop Miniatures have over product quality? Will Soda Pop have any role in a final determination of quality before shipping begins, or is that solely the province of CMON? Do you know what kind of quality controls CMON are using to prevent mold line issues on the thin and intricate RK miniatures?
Answer:
CMON manages manufacturing, including the quality control aspect. They have already sent people over to examine all the test production and handle any improvements that are needed. They will also have personnel on hand to make sure the production runs meet expectations. Soda Pop is periodically sent photographs and test models to provide our own feedback.
The impression I get from this answer is that Soda Pop itself has no real further control over the process. The operation at this point is completely CMON.
Super Dungeon Explore is also a Soda Pop game, so I wouldn't be all doom and gloom just yet. I've noticed C'MON sells kingdom death minis(I suppose acting as a distributor?)at conventions. Not saying C'MON has anything to do with Poots' work, but he at least has enough confidence in them to sell his stuff. I have a feeling C'MON got caught up trying to get too much through the door at once.
Sinful Hero wrote: Super Dungeon Explore is also a Soda Pop game, so I wouldn't be all doom and gloom just yet. I've noticed C'MON sells kingdom death minis(I suppose acting as a distributor?)at conventions. Not saying C'MON has anything to do with Poots' work, but he at least has enough confidence in them to sell his stuff. I have a feeling C'MON got caught up trying to get too much through the door at once.
I think its important to note that the Robotech KS, of which CMoN has no involvement , is also struggling right now with Ninja(Soda) Division (Pop) and that all of CMoNs 100% internal KSes have been delivered early or on time....
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