My bad on Marie-Claude. Didn't see it the first time.

Best model value (number wise) is Black Diamond x2. 2 bigger-than dreadnaught knights, 2 small tanks, 20 (!) troopers, 2 armored troops (Leopold Magnus), 6 ninja, 2 limited edition models (theres a few that fit the look), and trade in the book for the assault armor and (probable) heavy weapons team.

$100=37 models, 3 of which are simply huge. That's a 40K army right there.

Lol Black Diamond as a counts as 2k Grey Knights bwahahahahaha *facepalm*

Librian x 2 with Warding Staves, Mastery 3, and a bunch of powers ( Leopold Magnus ) (2 Servo skulls: Static)

Callidus, Vidicare, Culexus assains (Suspect 7)

2x 10 man Strike Squad (Black Diamond Corps)
2x Razorback with TL Lascannon (Mini Tank)

2x Dreadknight with Heavy Psycannon (One Shot)
Dreadknight with Nemisis Greatsword (Assault Armor)

I'd die laughing to see that.

What does it say though, when the whole kickstarter would cost you LESS then a standard 40K army?

The fact that you'd use these as "Count as" is bad enough, but this price for the game is really a good deal all around.

After seeing the stuff being played over at You tube, I'm really having a hard time NOT to go back in, tough decision, thats for sure.


Really hard decision making being me these days. Between about three or four other games, This is really shaping into a really good deal.


Check out the Standard price for them, then see what your getting here. MMMMM........ large ....minis...

I'll be picking up doctrine. I'm backed $90 with a split deal with a buddy where I'll be taking a Book.

Using some estimation based on other games/similar models.

Kisa & Scratch, 1 Librarian, 3 Novitiates, and starter stuff: $60-75 (starter set cost I'm assuming)
3 Novitiates: $35 set
Togan and Cecelia: $18
Delphyne & Ekhis: $27
Darkspace Zinenda: $25 Convention model
Fiametta: $13
Hasami: $13
Jakob: $13
Valeria: $13
Veronica: $13
Codifier Brahe & FF9000: $25-30 Convention Mini (if not more)
Total: $245-265 assumed retail cost

I am really glad to see the deals are starting to be a pretty good amount of models. I really love the Relic Knight line (I have Princess Maya #10 or so... gotta find that little ticket thing) and want to support them, but being strapped for cash for a long time I just couldn't get up enough excitement to drop 100$ on it. Now though... yea, gonna be scraping together the cash somehow.

Like many I was having a bit of a hard time understanding what is included in the various packages Soda Pop Miniatures are offering. To help me sort it out I put it in spreadsheet format. Thought I'd share for those also suffering some confusion.

Here they are grouped into Faction Starters, Boosters, Pledge Rewards, and individual models that can be purchased piecemeal: (boosters color-coded by faction)



Note 1: Numbers for Faction Starters and Boosters represent model counts. Example: For the Noh Faction, you get 4 Berzerkers total and not 4 Sets of Berzerkers.

Note 2: Rule Books may be redeemed for $35 towards other Relic Knight merchandise. I've reflected this monetary value at the appropriate pledge levels. Example: At $190 Pledge Level you get 2 Rule Books or redeem them for a total of $70 credit.

Note 3: I've included the next stretch goals for $350k since that target is almost reached.

On that sheet gray out Cecila as she is a part of Togan and Ekhis as he is Delphyne's Cyper.

and the Breaker team is 2 miniatures on 1 base the same as Togan or the Corsair breaching gun so they represent just 1 minion but nice spreadsheet thank you

BlueDagger wrote:On that sheet gray out Cecila as she is a part of Togan and Ekhis as he is Delphyne's Cyper.

Done. Thanks for the suggestion.

DaveC wrote:and the Breaker team is 2 miniatures on 1 base the same as Togan or the Corsair breaching gun so they represent just 1 minion but nice spreadsheet thank you

I'm not sure if I should adjust for this. The way I laid it out was by model count, not unit count. They share a base yes, but they are two seperate models that could be put on individual bases for other game systems.

Dentry wrote:

I'm not sure if I should adjust for this. The way I laid it out was by model count, not unit count. They share a base yes, but they are two seperate models that could be put on individual bases for other game systems.

Fair enough then in that case the breaching gun is 2 models loader and crew

DaveC wrote:

Dentry wrote:

I'm not sure if I should adjust for this. The way I laid it out was by model count, not unit count. They share a base yes, but they are two seperate models that could be put on individual bases for other game systems.

Fair enough then in that case the breaching gun is 2 models loader and crew

That completely escaped me. I never noticed the guy behind the breaching gun. Updated accordingly.

Adjusted the listing a bit so it doesn't seem like you get 2 Breaching Guns, and listed the crewman as a companion of sorts to the gun. Let me know if anything's unclear or you see somewhere it could be improved. Thanks.

Also, now counting cyphers as models. They seemed really small and insignificant, but fair is fair.

Thank you for that spreadsheet - excellent, clear and concise - everything we've been looking for!

Yea, thanks for spreadsheet! I wish the KS site itself had those on them

New Artwork for the Cosplay minis - you can see Marie Claude's Cypher now (her mini will include the cypher as she is a Questing Knight)



2 free at Savior 4 at Double Savior and 6 at Gotta Get Em All $10 each after that

Candy and Cola - Chun Li and Ryu (Streetfighter)
Isabeau - Faye Valentine (Cowboy Bebop)
Zineda - Morrigan (Darkstalkers)
Iron Chef - Solid Snake (Metal Gear)
Rin Farrah - Yoko Littner (Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann )
Fiametta - Sailor Scout (Sailor Moon)

If anyone is still wondering who Marie Claude is she is a Canadian Cosplay and Glamour model and designer (she's the one dressed as Rin in the Gencon pictures) she works with Soda Pop on some of their designs. Her mini is of a real person (Marie Claude) cosplaying as a Cerci Speed Circuit Questing Knight - she is the only one that is not a Darkspace version.

Dammit. Those are all awesome. Don't know if I'll be able to kill it to 2

Candy and Cola are a MUST for me (I collect them )
The other one... DARN, hard to tell without the models in front of me... but the bargain hunter in me does jump at the largest model

What models from this KickStarter won't be available at retail?

And what Cosplay models go with what faction again?

(Thanks!)

Shamelessly stolen from the Relic Knight KS Page

All Cosplay Special Edition characters (except Marie-Claude) represent a Darkspace alternate of their normal version. These Darkspace alternates will possess slightly different rules and in most cases are fielded by different factions.

Marie-Claude - Cerci Speed Circuit

Darkspace Candy & Cola - Cerci Speed Circuit
"Racers aren't the only thing that can go fast. My kicks are quicker than the blink of an eye."

Darkspace Iron Chef - Black Diamond
"No matter the mission all I need is my trusty box."

Darkspace Rin Farrah - Noh Empire
"Not all who are enslaved are broken."

Darkspace Fiametta - Shattered Sword
"Whether in this universe or another I will defend you with my life!"

Darkspace Zineda - Doctrine
"Their mastery of Esper is unparallelled and I crave its power"

Darkspace Isabeau - Star Nebula Corsairs
"My motto is shoot them before they shoot you, out here it's survival of the fittest."




Automatically Appended Next Post:

DaveC wrote:
New Artwork for the Cosplay minisCandy and Cola - Chun Li and Ryu (Streetfighter)
Isabeau - Faye Valentine (Cowboy Bebop)
Zineda - Morrigan (Darkstalkers)
Iron Chef - Solid Snake (Metal Gear)
Rin Farrah - Yoko Littner (Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann )
Fiametta - Sailor Scout (Sailor Moon)

If anyone is still wondering who Marie Claude is she is a Canadian Cosplay and Glamour model and designer (she's the one dressed as Rin in the Gencon pictures) she works with Soda Pop on some of their designs. Her mini is of a real person (Marie Claude) cosplaying as a Cerci Speed Circuit Questing Knight - she is the only one that is not a Darkspace version.

After seeing the full color pic above and knowing who everyone is cosplaying....Honestly why do I see myself buying all of these?!!?!?....

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
What models from this KickStarter won't be available at retail?

They haven't said anything definitive about that. The following is taken from their Kickstarter page:

Soda Pop Miniatures wrote:The Savior, Double Savior, and Gotta Catch Em All pledge levels have 2, 4 and 6 Special Edition Miniatures included free respectively.

We're going to unlock more choices for you as we hit our higher rewards, so you have more to choose from. These are for Kickstarter and conventions only and won't be available for general resale. $10 today will get you any extras you need beyond your allocation of 2, 4 or 6!

Get them now, we expect to sell these at conventions for $15 each, and probably won't make anymore when they're done!

So there's the official response. My guess is that eventually they'll make more (if not right after the Kickstarter). Who doesn't like making money, right?

Hi everyone! I know our Kickstarter has LOTS of different options so we've made this handy info graphic guide of the savior level pledge.

It's really large so click to get the full size graphic.



We're almost to the next unlock. Thanks to everyone who has pledged so far!

SPM_Deke

Any more pictures/details about that battlemat?

Some questions...

1) Is the battlemat new?
2) What size is it?
3) Anyone know how terrain/cover works in this game?

And, thank you terrainguy for that graphic!

Battlemat Eh!!! To Sodapop site!

 terrainguy wrote:
Hi everyone! I know our Kickstarter has LOTS of different options so we've made this handy info graphic guide of the savior level pledge.

It's really large so click to get the full size graphic.

...

We're almost to the next unlock. Thanks to everyone who has pledged so far!

SPM_Deke

Awesome. Looking forward to the next stretch goals. I'm loving what I've seen so far from you guys.

Great work!

So is this a good deal or just a way to get access to LTD ED minis?

Early talk was this is just about retail. Seems like there's no real breaks on the "extras".

As promised here are the Relic Knights Preview Rules. The basic rules mechanics are done and set in stone. However, these are not complete and there are many mechanics still absent (like squads) and final editing is not complete. We would love to hear feedback on our forums. Our goal is to use the time between now and the May launch to polish the rules as much as we can.

Preview Rules (25mb)
Esper Deck
Black Diamond Cards
Cerci Speed Circuit Cards
Doctrine Cards
Noh Empire Cards
Shattered Sword Paladins Cards
Star Nebula Corsairs Cards

Thanks!
Deke

Oh and the battlemat is 3x3.

The Beta Rules and cards are now available for download

http://rk.sodapopminiatures.com/

and I've just woken up and they've taken another $20 off me!

EDIT haha SPM Deke just beat me to it thanks


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also new stuff from the cards that has yet to appear as a model in the KS

Black Diamond:
Black Dragons (minions)
Sophie Drake (unique character)

Noh Empire

Warlord Mamaro-To (unique character)

I've been following this project and they amount of extra value they have been packing in has really got me excited. I just put down for a double savior pack with some extras 9 days to go! http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/coolminiornot/relic-knights

Rules look very clean and simple. 3x3 mean the games is gonna be extreme fast paced.

Tried to resist but this kickstarter thing is addictive and by the time you get your stuff you've almost forgotten/recovered from paying out and it's like christmas presents all through the year. Went in at savior and upped total to include extra model packs (couldn't justify the cost till extras were added) and so far am palnning on Noh and Speed Circuit.

 Task and Purpose wrote:
So is this a good deal or just a way to get access to LTD ED minis?

Early talk was this is just about retail. Seems like there's no real breaks on the "extras".

Initially the 'extras' were indeed just about retail (but plastic not the nightmare to assmeble that mixed metal & plastic was)

BUT now we have hit the lastest stretch the extra's come with more figures for free

EX Plus unlocked! Optional items upgraded!


Update #30 · Aug. 31, 2012 · 6 comments



Have a look at the extra stuff added to each optional miniatures pack!




Breaker Team! Yeah! Big Guns!





Release the Hounds! 2 more Agha!





Navarre Hauser enters the fight!





Stay in school! Prefects added!





Every pit needs a crew!





Don't get on the wrong end of her rapier! Moffett enters!






Automatically Appended Next Post:
New stretch goal

$380k stretch... SDE anyone? Also check out draft rules!



Presenting Relic Knight - Super Dungeon Explore Avatars
Saving the universe is hard work and after long day nothing is more relaxing for a Relic Knight than playing the system's most popular video game, Super Dungeon Explore. Now you can guide them on their quest by getting your favorite Relic Knights in the "chibi" avatar form they inhabit when playing the game. These are fantastic models to collect and paint for any Relic Knights fan, but will also come with their own unique Hero cards allowing you to use them in your games of Super Dungeon Explore!

We've cross-overed into cross-over territory with our next stretch! If we hit $380k, the first of our SDE cross over special edition figures unlocks! Available as a Special Edition choice, or for $10!

oh well this one leaves me cold (really do not like the superdeformed look), but maybe other will disagree

Yep very underwhelmed by this as I have no interest in SDE but it's a very clever marketing move to get more SDE backers in on this as well still I wish they hadn't gone the cross over route as this adds nothing to the Relic Knights game the minis can't even be used for RK hopefully there aren't to many of these eating up the stretch goals.

DaveC wrote:
Yep very underwhelmed by this as I have no interest in SDE but it's a very clever marketing move to get more SDE backers in on this as well still I wish they hadn't gone the cross over route as this adds nothing to the Relic Knights game the minis can't even be used for RK hopefully there aren't to many of these eating up the stretch goals.

well soda pop said this

SPM_Deke 7 minutes ago
Never fear Relic Knights purists! We have much more planned.

so hopefully they will be alternating between SDE stuff and pure Relic Knights at worst......

a less serious suggestion... but it shows they arn't useless

SPM_Deke 25 minutes ago
@Michael
Chibi's also make excellent alt cypher models. Bat-mite!? But you're a Noh fan -- micronized enslaved Malya? =P

Maybe it's just me but I see stretch rewards that I have to pay extra to get as not really a reward, I'd rather see the optional extras added randomly with no goals needed and that all stretch rewards be a tangible free reward for the pledger even if that means the stretches are further apart.

Just look at it as getting extra money from others who DO want those things to help speed you towards the next freebie stretch goal

The alt. cypher idea isn't a bad one will have to wait and see what they are like to decide if I want to spend $10 on them - I'm currently reading through 7 pages of comments from when I was at work today haven't got to the comments on the new stretch yet.

The comments on the SDE seem to be

40% I hate it
40% I love it
20% not for me but I understand why they did it

I thought it would be a split decision alright - I'm not fussed either way I see why they did it and may still consider them.

I've attached the artwork for Sophia Drake and Warlord Mamaro-To that I mentioned this morning hopefully these get minis in the KS notice Sophia is wearing Black Dragon Armour and her rules state that Black Dragons are linked to her and gain the coordinated fire ability.

And there is also an interesting concept sketch of Marie Claude (I think) in Mech Armour

I had (as Baldrick would say) a cunning plan

The Soda Pop comment of using the Chibi's as altenate cypers is a good one, so I've asked them if they could include a RK cyper card with appropriate art/powers with them

that way they 'become' part of the game. You can grab them an us them without 'proxying' on the wrong card (anathama to some)

hopefully that will be cheap enough for them to do

what do you think

So are the runts actually usable in SDE? They have their SDE cards? I've seen the Candy & Cola SDE fig. Kinda meh, kinda cool....I definitely can't see myself an extra $50-$70 on chibis. After all we've gotten so far they would have been better as freebies or at least cheapies. I mean it's like "Hey guys get us 60K more and you can buy stuff we were gonna make anyways at retail price." There's a lot of good value in this KS miniature wise and a lot of good, fun, sculpts that I will pay for and paint, but chibis minis = chibi detail, and should = chibi price. I mean isn't this entire KS in plastic?

That being said.

Once the KS is over can we increase our pledges to buy extra stuff? Specifically I know that I want to spend at least150-175, but I don't want to spend say $300 all out of one paycheck.

If yes, are we paying for stuff at the prices in the KS, or at post KS (new, inflated) costs?

thanks!

Updated graphic with the new boosts.



@Mighty Godzilla
Yes, the "runts" are actually usable in SDE.

You can add to you pledge in the pledge manager to get optional extras at the Kickstarter price but, obviously, that won't assist achieving stretch goals.

Deke

There will be a pledge manager

that's all we've been told

My guess is you'll need to be at saviour ($100) level to be able to add stuff freely, as that's equivalent to the sweet spot in previous CMON properties.

Reaper are charging late comers (who hadn't pledged, vampire I think) extra though, so whether CMON will do this too ?

CMON has confirmed that the battle mat is 3'x3' and is a pre printed foam mat - an update is due to announce it properly

To Swap or not to Swap, Soda Pop has the answer


Update #32 · Aug. 31, 2012 · 4 comments





OK! Confirmation on a couple of swappable / addable items.

Hardback Rulebook
■ Swappable for $35 credit on any optional items or additional Faction Starters. You can swap all your books if you wish, even if it means you get zero books (warning: Hard to play the full game with all your unlocked models with just Quickstart Rules).
■ Purchasable for $35 as an option on any pledge level

Faction Starter in Savior / Double Savior / GTGEA
■ Swappable for $50 credit on any optional items or rulebooks.
Does not decrease your eligibility for Special Edition Miniatures.
■ Purchasable for $50 as an option on Savior, Double Savior and Got to Get Em All
Does not increase your eligibility for Special Edition Miniatures.

Not swappable items
■Lithographs
■Special Edition Miniatures

May not use swapped credit for
■Shipping

Actually with this new information I think I'm all set to buy. I only wanted 3 factions, but a boatload of extras. Now that you can swap out a starter faction makes Double Saviour a lot more appealing. That and being able to up my contribution at a later date. I gotta say, nice!

That's just thrown up so many confusing questions they didn't think of - it's badly worded as someone suggested on the comments you can buy Savior for $100 and swap out both factions and rulebook for $135 credit and still keep the 2 cosplay figures or DS for $190 swap out 2 factions and book for $135 credit for extras or all 4 factions for $235 credit and still get 4 cosplay figures. Load up on the limited extras and ebay them later. I think the intention was to allow just 1 faction swap out I've asked for clarification.

OrlandotheTechnicoloured was nice enough to give us a heads up about a new Stretch Goal, located under the Updates tab here;

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/coolminiornot/relic-knights/posts/299426

OK this just got weird

Creator CoolMiniOrNot 20 minutes ago

Quick clarification - unlike pass KS we've run, you can "pile on" different pledge levels. e.g. $100 + $270 for Savior and GTGEA (total 8 Faction Starters). Doesn't matter which level you actually select, we'll sort it out after.

Creator CoolMiniOrNot 16 minutes ago
@Stuart Yes you get all the stuff in GGEA and Savior, and you can swap in and out as you like.

So if I pledge GGEA x2 and swap out 5 rulebooks and 6 factions for credit my pledge goes from $505 to $435 and I get 12 Cosplay figures rather than 6 that's just mad

No, not really. You're swapping out items for credit, but you've paid real cash. Once you bought in you can't reduce your pledge, but they are giving you more options to get exactly what you want. Credit =/= Real Cash. Once they have the molds built the raw material is dirt cheap...certainly not the $10 per fig they're asking for. So CMON is going to hook up the 1700+ people who backed them originally and they walk away with metal molds, cash, etc etc etc.

Basically this KS is looking to make itself way more lucrative to the people (like me) who haven't jumped on board yet, and give extra value to the people who have. The swap out options they announced this morning secured my patronage, and will probably do the same for others sitting on the fence.

Sorry miscalculation on my part the credit has to spent on extras I didn't factor that in but it does save me $20 at GGEA and an extar Savior plus 2 extra cosplay minis

CMON have futher clarified as they realised they got it wrong:

Faction Starter in Savior / Double Savior / GTGEA

Swappable for $50 credit on any optional items or rulebooks.
Does not decrease your eligibility for Special Edition Miniatures. You may swap 1 Faction Starter from Savior, 2 from Double Savior, and 3 from Got to Get Em All.
Purchasable for $50 as an option on Savior, Double Savior and Got to Get Em All
Does not increase your eligibility for Special Edition Miniatures. Comes with all figures included in the Faction Starters including unlocked models. International pledgers please add $15 shipping.

Funny thought, but does shipping go up (for us international backers) if we take an extra starter set as an option?

If you add another Savior you add another $25 postage. If you take another faction for $50 you add another $15 postage.

At least the swap confusion seems to have been cleared up.

Has anyone who has had a chance to read the rules yet noticed how terrain and/or cover will work in this game?

 Alpharius wrote:
Has anyone who has had a chance to read the rules yet noticed how terrain and/or cover will work in this game?

I've skimmed and watched the gameplay video and here's what I think it plays like

All cover & models have a size value (a cyper is 1, a relic knight 4).... You can have terrain bigger than any of the figures giving complete cover

If a larger object completly obsures your target you can't attack (except with certain powers)

If a larger object partially obscures your target gets some soak from it (ie damage reduction), representing some of the fire hitting the obsticle

the game plays a move-shoot/hit-move (although most characters second move is shorter than the first) mechanic so you can dart out of cover, attack and return to cover

(and some attacks include extra movement for the attacker, or knock back/away for the defender adding further tactics)

well, just added a bit to my pledge for the optional stuff for the factions i'm going for, guess its good i pulled a lot of overtime at work recently

and the trade in rules change again they've reduced trade in value of the starter factions at higher levels to take account of the extra discount already on these levels

Faction Starter in Savior / Double Savior / GTGEA

Swappable for $50/$45/$40 (Savior, Double Savior and GTGEA respectively) credit on any optional items or rulebooks.
Does not decrease your eligibility for Special Edition Miniatures. You may swap 1 Faction Starter from Savior, 2 from Double Savior, and 3 from Got to Get Em All.

Well there is no $ saving anymore but you do still keep the extra 2 SE miniatures so that's $20 of extra minis there it will get me 1 SDE mini for free on top of the 7 cosplays

Closer look at the battlemat that they sent out in the update.



Rubberized cloth (mousepad)

Sold - adding one to my (eventual) pledge!

New pledge wheel is up



Disappointed that the SDE minis are $30k jumps but Boost EX2 at $460k!

Hoping for Sophia Drake or some Black Dragons and Warlord Mamaro-To at Boost EX2

I expect this to break 1 mil, so no worries.

DaveC wrote:
New pledge wheel is up


Disappointed that the SDE minis are $30k jumps but Boost EX2 at $450k!

Hoping for Sophia Drake or some Black Dragons and Warlord Mamaro-To at Boost EX2

$460K. An extra $10K.

I'm with you in that these are less exciting than the previous stretch goals. Hoping for Sophia Drake AND Black Dragons.

The Kickstarter is almost at the $380k mark. Then it's 20k > 30k > 30k spacing for the stretch goals. There's some neat stuff in the PDF rules that they could turn into actual models and I'm sure there's a ton of stuff we haven't seen.

Base inserts are meh. Let's get that KS to $460k and beyond for some sweet, sweet SPM goodness.

No way is this one breaking a million!

They miscalculated at the beginning, and then Gencon took up their time, and it took them too long to 'recover' the necessary momentum.

In my opinion of course!

The SDE stretch goals are also completely uninspiring - especially as they are 'add $x to get one' type of goals.

I'm just hoping we make it to EX2 Boosts, which shouldn't be a problem.

I don't think this one beats Sedition Wars, and it may not even seriously challenge Zombicide - and that's no knock on Relic Knights!

I like this one a lot - but it didn't start out on the right foot, and it doesn't have the 'mass appeal' of Zombies or Mike McVey.

 Alpharius wrote:
I like this one a lot - but it didn't start out on the right foot, and it doesn't have the 'mass appeal' of Zombies or Mike McVey.

I'd say the Anime/Manga angle is still greatly appealing to miniature enthusiasts. But the new stretch goals seem tacked on rather than thought out. I believe the lackluster rewards and the "Give us more money to unlock the chance to pay for more stuff" nature of some of those stretch goals is going to hurt this Kickstarter more greatly than any mistakes made at it's launch.

Edit:

Looking at kicktraq it's entirely feasible that the Soda Pop Miniature crew is expecting it to cash out at around $500k and are planning goals/rewards accordingly. I'm fairly sure it'll exceed that mark, though.

I'm excited

but i'd have liked to see at least a sketch of the last base inserts before going for new ones!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
anybody fancy speculating about the Boost Ex2

what will get boosted

the starter
the option
the SE figures (not likely but ?)
the SDE Chibi's (would cause joy & rage in equal amounts)

What will it be

new characters, we've seen art for 3 of them
the optional head/arms for the minions they were looking into

I'm honestly getting lost in some of these so called "Strech goals".

The SDE thing has me completly cornfused. Chibi headed Relic Knights, Relic Knighted Chibi heads? What exactly are these looking like?

That so called "goal" needs something a little more then a cutesy story referring SDE to this as part of thier world.

Not so much excited at this as I am about the sets of 100+ dollars worth of minis in this KS project.


SDE has no place here, and thats coming from a fan of the game. Not so much of a but this did nothing to me but mess with what they are exactly talking about.

Want to really impress me, sell me some extra body parts, so I can upgrade my heads, and full frontal busts.

Enquiring minds want to know if we are going to get to see some more nekked robot jocketts.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
I'm excited

but i'd have liked to see at least a sketch of the last base inserts before going for new ones!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
anybody fancy speculating about the Boost Ex2
what will get boosted

the starter
the option
the SE figures (not likely but ?)
the SDE Chibi's (would cause joy & rage in equal amounts)

What will it be

new characters, we've seen art for 3 of them
the optional head/arms for the minions they were looking into

It'll be the promo minis from the Tentacle Bento Game.
You know how in Relic Knight land SDE is a very popular past time/video game.
Tentacle Bento will be their version of MTG.

Grot 6 wrote:Want to really impress me, sell me some extra body parts, so I can upgrade my heads, and full frontal busts.

Enquiring minds want to know if we are going to get to see some more nekked robot jocketts.

I think alternate heads, bodies, or arm/weapon options would be excellent incentives (or hell just throw ins) to the starter troop/minions. I'm gonna have 6 Hel's Bels bikers that're all gonna look the same. =(...

The extra heads and weapons will already be included with the minions according to CMON earlier posts

DaveC wrote:
The extra heads and weapons will already be included with the minions according to CMON earlier posts

Then they really need to centralize their posts so people know exactly what they're getting. If you're listening CMON/SodaPop, let people know what they're getting. I don't got a problem hearing it from a forum mate, but it's just a rumor till I see it from you. Update and build up your FAQs and central area dammit.

I have to say, I don't think I'm confused by the layout personally, but this has to be an example of how to NOT run a Kickstarter.

I'm pledging, make no mistake, but the Kickstarter page has not been stellar at all. Communication is bad, updates come infrequently, the boosts have been uninspiring and somewhat odd, the graphic layout causes issues. I don't know who is putting it together for Soda Pop, but they need new management on this kind of thing.

Other companies out there should study the evolution of this Kickstarter campaign and learn from the mistakes. You have to entice the fans, give them rewards, keep in touch on on top of the movement.

Again, I'm no unhappy about the pledges and what's being given. Its a good deal and I hope the game is fun and Soda Pop continues to support it. But this is just a mess.

Enquiring minds want to know if we are going to get to see some more nekked robot jocketts. :wow

Grot you just made me feel old as i remember watching that movie as a kid. Btw she only ever showed the rear and back to topic i am not.impressed with the.stretch goals.but then again i am not wanting any more models as savior plus the extra $35 for the NoH hunter i am strapped on models.

I think it's just a complicated KS

It's not a box game you can just add to, it's a skirmish game with 6 factions

I think the boosts have been good (except the invisible base inserts, I like to see concept art at the very least),

people may not have liked them all, but it's the same 6 faction problem.

Either you set out stuff one at a time with small stretches & many folk will not want some of it, or you set out stuff for all 6 factions at once and have to bridge a huge stretch early on (bad idea)

The SDE is more of a leap of faith, but I think it will bring in more pledges (it certainly hasn't slowed progress today)

But having goals updated more swiftly would have been much better. This has been a real problem

I guess it shows don't run a KS when you are going to conventions or indeed shipping another KS, no matter what synergy you think it will bring. You'll be too busy or distracted to stay on top of things

 MightyGodzilla wrote:

DaveC wrote:
The extra heads and weapons will already be included with the minions according to CMON earlier posts

Then they really need to centralize their posts so people know exactly what they're getting. If you're listening CMON/SodaPop, let people know what they're getting. I don't got a problem hearing it from a forum mate, but it's just a rumor till I see it from you. Update and build up your FAQs and central area dammit.

It's in the FAQ

Are the Minions multipart?
Most of the minion models are multipart allowing for some limited customization from trooper to trooper. Where able we are also working on additional options such as variable heads to make allow even more choice.

DaveC wrote:

It's in the FAQ

Are the Minions multipart?
Most of the minion models are multipart allowing for some limited customization from trooper to trooper. Where able we are also working on additional options such as variable heads to make allow even more choice.

Yeah I read that part earlier this week. But you can't catalogue exactly what those options are and for which mini (yet) because the source hasn't even fleshed that out yet .

I actually had a paragraph of ****ing that I'm not going to post. Instead I'll a little more diligent in checking out the Central page, the FAQ, and the Update Page.....I do draw the line at sifting through the comments section. I will say quickly that I didn't have as hard of a time spending my money during the Reaper KS, and I felt that Sedition Wars backers were a little more informed than the RK backers are now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also just noticed that this KS bumps up the costs of its rewards level to reward the early (or penalizes the fence sitters like me - if you're the glass half empty type).

Double Savior $180 sold out, now there's a Double Savior $190. Very crafty. Actually its an uncalled for, greedy b!tch move on their part. But it's only $10. So if you're on the fench you may want to speed up those calculations and pledge.

 MightyGodzilla wrote:

I also just noticed that this KS bumps up the costs of its rewards level to reward the early (or penalizes the fence sitters like me - if you're the glass half empty type).

Double Savior $180 sold out, now there's a Double Savior $190. Very crafty. Actually its an uncalled for, greedy b!tch move on their part. But it's only $10. So if you're on the fench you may want to speed up those calculations and pledge.

No penalty there Double Savior costs $190 this will not change they won't suddenly lock it off and then say DS is now $200. CMON offered a $10 discount as an early bird special to the first 50 backers at this level they sold it within 6 hours on day one Mantic have also done the same thing for Dreadball.

I agree that communication has been pretty bad on this KS some updates have taken 5 or 6 hours to make and questions that are continually raised are left unanswered while those that are you need to keep asking them to FAQ the answer. It's a complex KS having to track 6 factions and all their associated extras and boosts.

Do we have any idea what the Relic Knight miniatures will retail for once the Kickstarter is over and everything's plastic? I can't see them keeping the same price point.

They are already retail search warstore or go to the spdapop site.

 BlueDagger wrote:
They are already retail search warstore or go to the spdapop site.

Those are metal miniatures. I'm asking about the plastic ones. What will the plastic versions of the miniatures retail for? Or are you telling me the price will remain the same?

Have they noted the size of the battlemat yet?

 Alpharius wrote:
Have they noted the size of the battlemat yet?

It's 3x3 ft

Dentry wrote:
Do we have any idea what the Relic Knight miniatures will retail for once the Kickstarter is over and everything's plastic? I can't see them keeping the same price point.

I can check with cmon as I have a retailer account with them.

"We're getting this printed on rubberized fabric (basically a gigantic mouse pad), and this lovely, easily stored piece of flat terrain can be yours for the low price of $20! (add +$15 for international shipping, it's heavy as !@#)."

This update does not do this thing any favors. IMO, this sounds like an added.... expense, and doesn't seem all to needed. (A 35 dollar mousepad?)

I'll go on out there and say that I'll be making a board based on some ANIME themed stuff from a cartoon, or something. To me, this is just screaming jump off the top deck and into someones face, while I do a 360 degree spin and end up on the wall or something.

Then there are those clear and colored plastic crystal models, mmmm......


As a side question, Are there any other companies out there doing 3d anime 25-32 mm figures that could go along with this game?

I'm starting to have some.... issues... with the attitude that this KS is starting to evolve as they begin to show thier hindquarters in public here, as well as some of the more rabid of the commenters are really not doing them any favors.

 Empchild wrote:

Dentry wrote:
Do we have any idea what the Relic Knight miniatures will retail for once the Kickstarter is over and everything's plastic? I can't see them keeping the same price point.

I can check with cmon as I have a retailer account with them.

I'm sure many of us would be interested in that information if you can obtain it. Thanks!

Something else came to mind. I don't plan on pledging more than $270 at most, but of those that pledged $3,000 or more are the figures made of them going to be general release? Basically, can I buy one? Or is it unique and only given to that person for pledging?

I'm not getting the battlemat as I'm primarily in this for painting pieces

but if I was playing I'd jump on it, despite the shipping (which I understand being high because of the weight). If I was in the US I might grab it just to display the painted figures on

It's just what folk asked for at the beginning of the campain, and will really help folk who dont have or make terrain.

As to prices after the KS it sounds like the starter boxes will probably be $75+, but prices havn't been finalised.

and while plastic is cheaped to make did 40K stuff get much cheaper when it went plastic ? or for that matter are the new plastic Malifaux models much cheaper than the older metals ?

My guess is the single figures in plastic will be a little cheaper than the existing metal/resin, but not dramatically so (they will be FAR easier to put together though)

 Grot 6 wrote:

Then there are those clear and colored plastic crystal models, mmmm......

As a side question, Are there any other companies out there doing 3d anime 25-32 mm figures that could go along with this game?

The somewhat obvious choice might be Anima Tactics?

Though I don't know how well they'd scale with Relic Knights.

Um... Infinity?

MMM... Infinity......


Second and third starter sets..... MMMmmmmm.........

I think Infinity miniatures won't mesh well with RK - AT will be a closer fit.

AT mostly has fantasy characters, though. A few might fit in with Doctrine. Infinity could mesh with Cerci and Black Diamond at least.

I would go nuts if soda pop did a SUPER DUNGEON EXPLORE KS!!!!! with all the options, expansions and limited minis etc!!!!

That would be nice - especially if it got the SDE stuff out of this Kickstarter!

SDE Princess Malya and Mr. Tomn unlocked



Next up Omni base inserts @$400k - every miniature you get will receive a base insert this upgrades the original base insert goal that gave 1 fixed set per Savior level



SDE Calico Kate unlocks at $430K

Boost EX2 (no details yet) @ $460k

 Alpharius wrote:
That would be nice - especially if it got the SDE stuff out of this Kickstarter!

Wanna bet the sde KS would have relics minis in it?

I'm not so sure, but you're probably right!

It is odd to have the mix of the two, though it is obvious as to why they are doing it.

I'd just prefer a straight up RK KS only - if possible!

Still, if it gets us closer to the RK unlocks, so be it.

Plus, I get to think that I'm saving $10 a pop by not wanting this one, or the next one!

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
As to prices after the KS it sounds like the starter boxes will probably be $75+, but prices havn't been finalised.

and while plastic is cheaped to make did 40K stuff get much cheaper when it went plastic ? or for that matter are the new plastic Malifaux models much cheaper than the older metals ?

My guess is the single figures in plastic will be a little cheaper than the existing metal/resin, but not dramatically so (they will be FAR easier to put together though)

I didn't consider Games Workshop lines because they're a big company and it didn't seem reasonable for them to cut us a break on price no matter what.

Malifaux didn't really get cheaper either. And I'm unaware of the price points for the other CMON kickstarter projects. But Reaper's Bones miniatures (that are currently available) have an approximate price drop of 80%.

 Alpharius wrote:
I'd just prefer a straight up RK KS only - if possible!

As someone who was on the fence about this one, leaning heavily towards the "Maybe next time" side, the SDE stuff is making me swing back in favour of it.

I guess if the SDE stuff pulls in enough folks to keep stuff moving, I'm ok with it. It's an easy pass on both of them for me.

Besides, it's not like you have to buy it. It's there for people who want it. Now all they have to do is reveal the other ones. if they do all the main Relic Knight people thingies as SDE models, then I'm in.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
I'd just prefer a straight up RK KS only - if possible!

As someone who was on the fence about this one, leaning heavily towards the "Maybe next time" side, the SDE stuff is making me swing back in favour of it.

Two $10 figures are going to get you to buy in at what level?

H.B.M.C. wrote:Besides, it's not like you have to buy it. It's there for people who want it. Now all they have to do is reveal the other ones. if they do all the main Relic Knight people thingies as SDE models, then I'm in.

I realize that I don't 'have' to buy them - I would have liked stretch goals that pertain to THIS game system instead of stretch goals that do not pertain to this system. Simple as that!

Again, I know they are aiming for a cross-pollination thing here. I get that.

Heh, I don't even own SDE and I like the chibi specials.

Personally as a backer I am both Underwhelmed and disappointed, this is CMONs 3rd kickstarter and the one I find worse managed, I see no point is giving more money, I actually went from early bird savior to double savior to save 10$ actually...

I am mystified why they did not go the sedition wars way, here 10$ unmounted X cipher if we hit you get a SDE version thrown in ectr, 20$ for Black Dragons if we hit X stretch goal we will add Sophia Drake in and so on, as it is there is really not much incentive on spending more.

Two side questions, has anybody asked if Black Diamond corp get female models too or they are the only male only minions and can we get triplicates of the same starter, I know the say "even duplicates", but I am unsure if that's a hard limit or they never expected somebody not wanting any other faction.

@alpharius. For them to buy one of the sde figures they have to purchase in at $50 level. I'm not sure how many people would buy a model for $60.00, so they are banking on the sde crew to join at higher levels to purchase the full game and a faction and the limited chili models.

I'm still on the fence on this kick starter. There are a ton of models, but I don't think I could do them justice with my painting skills. Plus I haven't done anime in years as its too adult now for my kids to watch. Just not something I want to showcase for my girls and son to see kids dressed like these models. I know I'm crazy but were all allowed to be a little off.

Theophony

My main issue with the models is that the actual models shown for the very few that have been produced (pewter? resin?) are a way off the concept art. Even assuming I find some figures here that aren't too far into titty-wee-a-boo for my tastes, chances are the actual models won't look nearly as good as the concept art. It's not like the KoW Kickstarter either that was so cheap that you could risk it anyway with a healthy chance of selling them off for as much as you paid for them (or more).

I will say that the Noh stuff shown so far looks pretty cool though. They could tempt me in if there was another faction that looked as good. Most everything else looks like doggy-style balloon-breasts though. Except the paladins, but they're sadly not nearly as nice as the Noh.

 Alpharius wrote:
Two $10 figures are going to get you to buy in at what level?

Firstly, I think they'll make more than just 2.

Secondly - and you should know this by now - I never do anything by half measures. If I'm in, I'm in for 3 starters (Black Diamond, Shattered Sword, Cerci Speed Circuit). And probably the PA guys and that big Mech thing with the energy axe.

But.. three starters out of six is pretty much exactly half measures....

 PsychoticStorm wrote:


Two side questions, has anybody asked if Black Diamond corp get female models too or they are the only male only minions and can we get triplicates of the same starter, I know the say "even duplicates", but I am unsure if that's a hard limit or they never expected somebody not wanting any other faction.

See by this question alone I know you aren't even looking before you type and that kinda annoys me on this one. They hit 400k btw this morning so base inserts it is. As for the people who stated about the concepts and the models you do realise that these are pretty spot on right? I mean sure in practical senses their is some variation but when I look at the finished vs looking at the model I see what they drew.

 Empchild wrote:

 PsychoticStorm wrote:


Two side questions, has anybody asked if Black Diamond corp get female models too or they are the only male only minions and can we get triplicates of the same starter, I know the say "even duplicates", but I am unsure if that's a hard limit or they never expected somebody not wanting any other faction.

See by this question alone I know you aren't even looking before you type and that kinda annoys me on this one. They hit 400k btw this morning so base inserts it is. As for the people who stated about the concepts and the models you do realise that these are pretty spot on right? I mean sure in practical senses their is some variation but when I look at the finished vs looking at the model I see what they drew.

Sorry to annoy you, I tried reading through 7k comments on kickstarter, but somewhere around 2k comments I thought to better ask about it here if somebody who had payed better attention than me and or kept a closer eye on it had an answer.

Now if that was that annoying for you to force you to express your displeasure without answering any of the two questions, I am terribly sorry for that.

And once again a goal is reached and there's no update.

I have definitely waffled back and forth and with the lack on info, lack of models made and the current push toward the SDE instead of boosts for this game...

Well, I guess in their defense if they are at PAX prime, it should be 9 in the morning there.

You dont need to read through comments.just look on the home page for the kickstarter. Their are pictures that will answer your questions.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
Two side questions, has anybody asked if Black Diamond corp get female models too or they are the only male only minions and can we get triplicates of the same starter, I know the say "even duplicates", but I am unsure if that's a hard limit or they never expected somebody not wanting any other faction.

My guess is that Black Diamond Corp (minions) are all male models. So if I'm correct, the only girls in the Black Diamond Faction Starter at the moment are Jessi Bancroft (One Shot) and Suspect 7.

Updated Base Insert Concept:



And listed EX2 Boost gains:

Just in the Kickstarter alone their are 4 females, and I found that out by going to the home page and scrolling down. This does not include any of the special addons or anything.

See that's the issue, all I see is the artwork of a single trooper copy pasted and inverted 5 times, that could be either "laziness" (meaning they had not the time to draw another artwork for them, that could also be a female corp) or an indicator that there will only be male corp, hence why I asked.

On the update, I am not really happy I was really hoping for Black Dragons and from the comments on kickstarter so did many people.

There is only 1 piece of artwork for each minion hence the copy and paste.

You can see the BD minions in the picture and the SSP in the one below so there is some variety. I was hoping for Black Dragons and Sophia as well they may be saving them for later boosts. Financially the EX2 boosts makes most sense for SPM as there is no further investment in new molds and the starters are effectively 2 for 1 deals.

They have the picture under the 5 guys of the three ninja chicks. Plus you have the women on the giant gun mech.

@DaveC

Indeed there is some variety, but I was hopping for some female corp models too, since all human factions have male and female minions at least in the artwork, barring Cerci who seems to be an all female faction for some reason.

As for the kickstarter, I really seem to have a problem adding more stuff, McVey did it right with adding things to buy and having stretch levels tied to giving an extra to the stuff you just bought.

Geesh - if they have all these painted samples of stuff already - why don't they have them on the Kickstarter page?

I'm a lot more interested knowing that all the troops aren't clones of the same 1-2 models. Is that giant robot in the back of the black diamond the $35 add-on? Because that's a lot bigger than I was expecting.

And I agree, it's disappointing that the Ex boosts are giving more of the models already included. For a skirmish game there's not a lot of incentive to having a ton of duplicates. I'd much rather the boosts be adding additional heads/weapons/bits to the existing troopers to field more variety.

I think they do not show them, because they are not the plastics the KS will produce they are resin/ metal models.

I still am amazed they are not showing them even if they are in the wrong material. They are already showing some stuff in the resin (Cerci speed jetbikes for example)

Actually looking at the shattered sword models makes me second guess them though... well, except the character models, just wish there were picks of the paragons.

But on the flip side, love the Black Diamond even more impressive (the diamond back is monstrous!!)

Throne of Angels has put up 2 new videos the first looking at the current resin/metal Noh minis (Agha hounds, Beserkers and Beastmaster) with the Doctrine Librarian right at the end. The second is the Black Diamond minis (Leopold and Static, Black Dragons, BD Corps and the Breaker Team).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAL21LOP-jI&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ySL3EMkrp0&feature=plcp

Thanks Dave, Still on the fence about Noh... but as HBMC is now coming in on this kcikstarter I might just get it for another faction to play...

No interest in Doctrine (other than the Cat model! and Prefects) and none what so every for Star Nebula...

Black Diamond though it looking better everytime I see the models, just love them.

Would any one in the US be willing to throw $20 onto their pledge so I could get the SDE characters?
I will also cover any shipping charges.

Let's wait until we see how many SDE characters we get. Currently there's 1 with a goal for another 1. There might be more to come!

 Empchild wrote:

 PsychoticStorm wrote:


Two side questions, has anybody asked if Black Diamond corp get female models too or they are the only male only minions and can we get triplicates of the same starter, I know the say "even duplicates", but I am unsure if that's a hard limit or they never expected somebody not wanting any other faction.

See by this question alone I know you aren't even looking before you type and that kinda annoys me on this one. They hit 400k btw this morning so base inserts it is. As for the people who stated about the concepts and the models you do realise that these are pretty spot on right? I mean sure in practical senses their is some variation but when I look at the finished vs looking at the model I see what they drew.

I can see what they're trying to do, and some are better than others, but some are (unfortunately) just awful translations of decent concept art. Others look poor in terms of concept art (the Black troopers) but quite decent as sculpts. I've linked the picture that illustrates the issue pretty well earlier in the thread - and at work now so can't get it again.

@Scipio: Sorry, where is the link? I also agree, didn't want the Black Diamond as there were too many of the troopers... until I saw the sculpts

Black Diamond will be real sweet, if the EX2 is unlocked each starter will have two APCs in it!! (I'll be taking two of those starters and thus have a small army! )

Shattred Sword is looking equally sweet, with the EX2 just making it sweeter...

A little disappointed that the Cerci EX2 is another of those PACE Robots, they are big, but not the most exciting of things. Would have FAR preferred another 3 Hell's Belles to make 10 jetbikes in the KS.

The APC is great, I see people jumping on that to get 2 of those for sure.

 Makaleth wrote:
@Scipio: Sorry, where is the link? I also agree, didn't want the Black Diamond as there were too many of the troopers... until I saw the sculpts

The demon-guy is ok, but look at the difference between the concept art for the girl and the execution. Cape and Hair. The face of the model is OK but not anime-style at all. And I don't know what is going on with her hips and thigh area. The model isn't the worst figure I've ever seen or anything, but I wouldn't pay money to buy it, either.


There's also a fairly big disconnect between the execution of these models and their concept art as well that makes me veeeery cautious about giving these guys money. I'd probably buy cat-girl here if she looked more like the art.







I also wonder why they don't show the other models that they've completed - the ones they showed off at GenCon? The ones that actually look good. A crappy 2-second still from a video camera isn't quite the same as some proper photos, after all.

With a 50mm base I am not sure I would cal it an APC, it is probably a tracked drone.

I'll second Scipio's skepticism of Soda Pop's execution of their concept art. Especially with that Kisa sculpt. The mounted Kisa is ugly and that's with a professional paint job. I'd buy ten of them if they were more like the artwork.

This one, however, inspires more confidence:



I really want to like the Shattered Sword Paladins so I can use them as SoB and other 40k power-armored proxies. Their named characters are good. The rank and file troops? Not so much.

Example (also professionally painted):


More examples taken from KS video:




Right now, I'd probably go Black Diamond based on the models alone. Although I don't plan on playing Relic Knights so I might end up getting the Noh or Space Corsairs or maybe not pledge at all.

Some of the minis are going to undergo either modifications or resculpts before they turned into plastic SPM have already acknowledged that some parts are below par and want to resolve this. If your not convinced best to wait until they hit retail to decide.

Below is the original version of Isabeau painted and the newer version with a modified head so they have changed minis before

That's actually a great example. I really liked her concept art, but the face didn't up to the artwork. That new head is a big improvement.

Dentry wrote:
I'll second Scipio's skepticism of Soda Pop's execution of their concept art. Especially with that Kisa sculpt. The mounted Kisa is ugly and that's with a professional paint job. I'd buy ten of them if they were more like the artwork.
Right now, I'd probably go Black Diamond based on the models alone. Although I don't plan on playing Relic Knights so I might end up getting the Noh or Space Corsairs or maybe not pledge at all.

With Soda pop minis the painter brings out the look more than with other minis. Too many painters just try to paint them like a warhammer mini instead of painting them as though they are canvas. For better examples









It all comes down to making the nose and eyes look cel shaded.

Also I was at Gen Con and those minis were not pro. They looked like minis they rushed an employee to have for a display.
My company had to do the same thing for our demo minis.

I don't really understand why you two feel a need to let the internet know what you want changed. Do either of you actually look at your posts? It's like you think the KS or Soda Pop are going to change things up because you two don't like the direction. I personally love the fact they they are targeting the whole anime audience. Cerci has Ghost in the Shell and Akira flavor, Noh has an Inuyasha vibe, Corsairs are Big O and Bebop, Paladins have a Thundarian Ogre....etc. I also love the freshness of the gameplay (No random rolls, card flips, or range limits). And I am grateful for every stretch goal they provide us with. Not to mention they have posted beta components for people to try before they buy. If you don't like what you see at least be fair and wait until closer to release (next summer) to voice concerns.

I'll be honest. I'm in it for Kisa on giant cat. I really really hope they fix the head before they release it >_<

Oh goody. A brand-new poster come here to white knight Soda Pop, Relic Knights and everything that they stand for. Wait, I'll do it "in character".

A new challenger enters.

Curator wrote:

Dentry wrote:
I'll second Scipio's skepticism of Soda Pop's execution of their concept art. Especially with that Kisa sculpt. The mounted Kisa is ugly and that's with a professional paint job. I'd buy ten of them if they were more like the artwork.
Right now, I'd probably go Black Diamond based on the models alone. Although I don't plan on playing Relic Knights so I might end up getting the Noh or Space Corsairs or maybe not pledge at all.

With Soda pop minis the painter brings out the look more than with other minis. Too many painters just try to paint them like a warhammer mini instead of painting them as though they are canvas. For better examples
(pro painted figures deleted - thanks for the pics, BTW!)
It all comes down to making the nose and eyes look cel shaded.

Now you realise that most people won't ever be able to paint their figures like that or to that standard? And that most people will in fact "paint them like a warhammer mini"?

Also I was at Gen Con and those minis were not pro. They looked like minis they rushed an employee to have for a display.
My company had to do the same thing for our demo minis.

Um.... and?

My point is that they do in fact have sculpts for many of these figures, and it makes no sense at all why they're not showing them. Instead they are showing concept art, which as we all know can very much go either way. The Noh figures look quite nice overall, and what I can see of the Black Diamond also look decent. Why not show them?

I don't really understand why you two feel a need to let the internet know what you want changed. Do either of you actually look at your posts? It's like you think the KS or Soda Pop are going to change things up because you two don't like the direction. I personally love the fact they they are targeting the whole anime audience. Cerci has Ghost in the Shell and Akira flavor, Noh has an Inuyasha vibe, Corsairs are Big O and Bebop, Paladins have a Thundarian Ogre....etc. I also love the freshness of the gameplay (No random rolls, card flips, or range limits). And I am grateful for every stretch goal they provide us with. Not to mention they have posted beta components for people to try before they buy. If you don't like what you see at least be fair and wait until closer to release (next summer) to voice concerns.

OK, your weea-boo otaku is showing here, so I'll break it down simply. This here discussion forum is as a forum for discussion. It's not simply a fanboi-topia for gushing about how grateful we are to GW, or Mantic, Or Soda Pop or anyone else. You also seem to lack in reading comprehension, as I have no problem with an anime style, nor have I ever claimed to. Of course my own experience with Anime has been with OAV that's concerned with more than giant titties. More seriously, I look at everything with a critical eye and not through rose-tinted fanboi goggles. If there's something on general release that I dislike, that's easy enough to simply ignore. If there's something asking for my money today with the promise of them giving me product in 6 weeks or 6 months, you can be damned sure I'll look at it carefully and critically.

But above all, and it's certainly worth reiterating, I'm expressing concern that they're showing us the concept art instead of the models. I'm expressing this concern because the concept art is overall of a very high quality while the figures range from OARSOME to OARFUL. In case you didn't look at my posts (see what I did there?) before wading in with a mild flame, I was one of the first backers on this site, pulled out and am now considering going back in, if only I could see the models properly. (Thanks for the redux example, DaveC). I don't believe I've said anything at all regarding their system.

Oh yeah. One more thing. They're asking us to pledge/give them our money, and they're doing so now. How is it "unfair" to have or discuss concerns now?

Thanks for that Kisa pic, that is phenomenal!

Also have to agree with scipio, actual models (if available) always better than concept art, inevitably you are not going to be exactly the same... hence a risk that it's better or worse than the art itself.

As most people are risk adverse with money (note I say most) reducing this risk is always a good thing if the models are good. The only reason not to show them would be if they were bad (which I doubt... seeing that I am in on this KS)

 scipio.au wrote:
OK, your weea-boo otaku is showing here...

And that's the point I stopped reading (and I agree with you on the actual vs concept art thing). I don't like anime, but I don't just dismiss the entire sub-culture with an 4Chan-esque put-down.

And discussing it now makes a lot more sense than discussing it months down the road, when everything IS locked in and changes are really impossible to make.

It has already been noted that they DO listen to feedback AND make changes based upon that feedback - that's actually a good thing!

There's no way every project is going to be just perfect for everyone, but to date in this thread we've had far more constructive criticism than not - and we should strive to keep it that way.

Changing a few of the more dire female heads would get them a lot more of my money, that's for sure.

And looking at Isabeau (how would you pronounce that? Is-ah-bow? Is-ah-boo?), it seems that they're making those changes.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 scipio.au wrote:
OK, your weea-boo otaku is showing here...

And that's the point I stopped reading (and I agree with you on the actual vs concept art thing). I don't like anime, but I don't just dismiss the entire sub-culture with an 4Chan-esque put-down.

/shrug. It was used to illustrate the level of fanboi used by the poster I was replying to. Especially in light of the fact that he was accusing me of various things that I never actually said or even insinuated.


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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And looking at Isabeau (how would you pronounce that? Is-ah-bow? Is-ah-boo?), it seems that they're making those changes.

Unfortunately, it's impossible to know what they're doing when there doesn't seem to have been any attempt to communicate it to the (potentially) paying fanbase.

DaveC's post above is unfortunately more useful and illustrative than most of their Kickstarter page. - Where they're unfortunately still showing the dire Kenobo (or is it Squall?) model on the main page when they could be showing the redux Isabeau. Or almost any of the better stuff in that GenCon video. The DiamondBack Assault Armour actually looks far better in the model form than as concept art. Hell, it took a rather unhappy 1st-poster's mild flame to get to see a decent picture of the Zindea figure. Why is that one not front and centre on their KS page? (next to the concept art, sure). Showing the model for Kasaro-to is what got me interested in this thing again, instead of mostly ignoring it.

Maybe they are not showing the models because these are the metal/ resin models, the models they intend to produce will be plastic and by definition they will be different, because plastic has its inherent issues with undercuts.

 scipio.au wrote:
I will say that the Noh stuff shown so far looks pretty cool though. They could tempt me in if there was another faction that looked as good. Most everything else looks like doggy-style balloon-breasts though. Except the paladins, but they're sadly not nearly as nice as the Noh.

If you can find a replacement for One-Shot, the only females in Black Diamond are the head of the Black Dragons, who's wearing bulky armour, and the Suspect-7 ninjas, who are toned down in the actual sculpt (sadly ):

scipio.au wrote:I can see what they're trying to do, and some are better than others, but some are (unfortunately) just awful translations of decent concept art. Others look poor in terms of concept art (the Black troopers) but quite decent as sculpts. I've linked the picture that illustrates the issue pretty well earlier in the thread - and at work now so can't get it again.

Heh, I was besotted with the concept art and sorely disappointed with the sculpts - which is part of why I've been flip-flopping and agonising over whether to go in on this or not all week - but after looking at that video on the previous page I think I'm okay with them if I give them new helmets. Poor studio paintjobs are a major problem. Though if what the fanboy says is true they're difficult to paint well. Not that you'd be able to tell the difference in my case. Some figures, like One-Shot's relic knight, I didn't like until I saw the sculptor's greens (and I'm still ripping the arms off the thing ). Here's three of the sculptors blogs if anyone's interested:

http://artmikh.blogspot.co.nz/
http://monster-zer0.blogspot.co.nz/
http://cruxko.com/

The interesting thing I discovered from looking through those sculptors' sites is that the "translation loss" is not always the sculptor's fault at all - the blandification often occurs at the reference drawing stage and that sculptor's just creating the figure they were directed to. And sometimes the flaw is in the concept art; oh hai Malya's relic knight and your silly flat feet. (On a random note, did anyone else notice that Malya received a sex change in those summary posters? )

Incidentally, that Noh guy is actually a good representation of the concept art; it's just a poor angle:



I'm glad to hear they're going to fix the older sculpts. Quality-wise it's like the difference between the old and new Infinity sculpts. Not that these guys are up to Infinity's level yet but it's that sort of gap. And some of them should mix reasonably well, at least with ALEPH or Nomads *mmmmm, Bakunin biker chicks....* This is a Reverend Custodier next to Rin Farrah:

Makaleth wrote:A little disappointed that the Cerci EX2 is another of those PACE Robots, they are big, but not the most exciting of things. Would have FAR preferred another 3 Hell's Belles to make 10 jetbikes in the KS.

The APC is great, I see people jumping on that to get 2 of those for sure.

Drones are perfect! Unless I come to my senses in the next few days I am so in for Black Diamond and Cerci Speed Circuit. I was originally interested in Noh Empire but I don't care for the men - except for the one with the gun - and the relic knight, while exquisitely sculpted, is hilariously skinny. CSC should scratch a hot-rod itch I've had since first seeing the AT-43 Karman vehicles, plus I figure the bikers will come with the helmets shown in some of the renders which should make them look less silly.

Anime Military (Black Diamond)
Solid Kitty-Kat
Big smashy robot (Diamondback)
Two tank drones
Three ninjas
Twelve soldiers with a really big gun

vs.

Anime Biker Gang (Cerci Speed Circuit)
Not-Morrigan
Medium melee mech (Malya)
Medium ranged mech (One-Shot - the styling is close enough to match, they both have motorcycle-style controls, and both Fritz and Rollo have a Pickelhaube)
Two drones
Sniper (who I'm going to have to add a jetpack to, somehow, poking out through the hair to keep with the mobility theme)
Seven biker chicks

Should be an interesting vignette. (Oh, and there's also Magnus, but he doesn't really fit in either theme. Maybe as a military bot. We'll see.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 scipio.au wrote:
The DiamondBack Assault Armour actually looks far better in the model form than as concept art.

But...but...the feet are too big, the head too small and it's all blocky. Why, man, why?

 Construct wrote:

Here's three of the sculptors blogs if anyone's interested:

http://cruxko.com/

The interesting thing I discovered from looking through those sculptors' sites is that the "translation loss" is not always the sculptor's fault at all - the blandification often occurs at the reference drawing stage and that sculptor's just creating the figure they were directed to. And sometimes the flaw is in the concept art; oh hai Malya's relic knight and your silly flat feet. (On a random note, did anyone else notice that Malya received a sex change in those summary posters? )

And looks like the terrible accident that befell Kisa's face happened in molding, as the 3D model is perfect.

If you see first generation warhammer sculpts, we can't really complain :p Give them time to grow, I think they are doing a good job tbh.

Yeah, but if no one complained then how would they know what needs improvement, or indeed if anything needed changing at all?

I just wish Soda Pop would have put this information out front and center. Like I had no idea there were helmeted heads for the Hells Belles racers, or two different sculpts for the beserkers (and wolves), etc

It'd also be great to know what models are getting changes made, because I agree with a lot of the posts above, that many of the models faces didn't quite make the transition from art to sculpt, and instead of being adorable, look goofy or worse.

Hey, is there any way of getting 4x Savior? (I'm not insane, a friend asked me to pledge in his name, too)

lord blackfang you can stack pledge levels so if you want 4x Savior pledge GGEA and add an extra $100 for another savior (no discount unfortunately) and any extra postage if relevant the CKPM will sort it all out.

So it would be GGEA $270 plus $100 for Savior plus $100 for shipping = $470 before extras

 Sidstyler wrote:
Yeah, but if no one complained then how would they know what needs improvement, or indeed if anything needed changing at all?

Constructive criticism is a small company's biggest friend, IMO. Or any company for that matter.

Can't tell a company how to run themselves, but if I had a miniature company I would want to hear people's complaints, whether I agree with it or not, feed back is important. If I had fan boys, don't think they would like me for very long, I would tell them to sit down an STFU.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Hey, is there any way of getting 4x Savior? (I'm not insane, a friend asked me to pledge in his name, too)

From horses (CMON:S mouth)

Quick clarification - unlike pass KS we've run, you can "pile on" different pledge levels. e.g. $100 + $270 for Savior and GTGEA (total 8 Faction Starters). Doesn't matter which level you actually select, we'll sort it out after.

So calculate total and go hogwild!

I really like the look of the helmeted Hells Belles heads, I'm hoping they make it into plastic

Soda Pop has said they will try to make altenate arms/heads for the minions available for variety (but it's not certainty)

but it would make thing s more fun

Curator wrote:

Dentry wrote:
I'll second Scipio's skepticism of Soda Pop's execution of their concept art. Especially with that Kisa sculpt. The mounted Kisa is ugly and that's with a professional paint job. I'd buy ten of them if they were more like the artwork.
Right now, I'd probably go Black Diamond based on the models alone. Although I don't plan on playing Relic Knights so I might end up getting the Noh or Space Corsairs or maybe not pledge at all.

With Soda pop minis the painter brings out the look more than with other minis. Too many painters just try to paint them like a warhammer mini instead of painting them as though they are canvas. For better examples

...

It all comes down to making the nose and eyes look cel shaded.

Also I was at Gen Con and those minis were not pro. They looked like minis they rushed an employee to have for a display.
My company had to do the same thing for our demo minis.

I don't really understand why you two feel a need to let the internet know what you want changed. Do either of you actually look at your posts? It's like you think the KS or Soda Pop are going to change things up because you two don't like the direction. I personally love the fact they they are targeting the whole anime audience. Cerci has Ghost in the Shell and Akira flavor, Noh has an Inuyasha vibe, Corsairs are Big O and Bebop, Paladins have a Thundarian Ogre....etc. I also love the freshness of the gameplay (No random rolls, card flips, or range limits). And I am grateful for every stretch goal they provide us with. Not to mention they have posted beta components for people to try before they buy. If you don't like what you see at least be fair and wait until closer to release (next summer) to voice concerns.

Others have already answered why it's wiser to voice concern sooner rather than later, so I won't go over that.

More importantly, my personal intent with the previous post was to voice concerns I had with the current models in the hopes of prompting discussion to help assuage or affirm my concerns. I would say it was successful and thanks to DaveC, Construct, and others helpful contributions I now have a better idea what to expect out of Soda Pop Miniatures and their Kickstarter.

If my posts in anyway seem rude, inflammatory, or disrespectful that's not my intent. And I wouldn't be posting in the first place if I were not interested in SPM. To be clear: I think they do good, if inconsistent, work. I'm glad they're taking steps to remedy that.

I think today's mini "exodus" is an indicator that people are not that excited by the decided streachgoals, I do hope they get notice and remedy them fast.

Exodus?

Maybe not exodus... but instead of going up over the last 2 hours it has gone down.

That... doesn’t make any sense. People would withdraw money due to SDE characters?

That’d be like walking into McDonald’s, asking for a Big Mac meal, and then deciding that you didn’t want it when the server told you that you could also buy something else. In other words – no sense at all.

Been watching it going up and down all day. thought I was going a bit mad.

I doubt it is the SDE ones.
More likely the Boost Goals just didn't do it.

For Cerci and Doctrine I was really unimpressed.
For the others I thought they were good.

Maybe that had an influence.

Yeah... but that makes even less sense. That’s like going into a McDonald’s, ordering a Big Mac meal, and being told that you get an apple pie for free and cancelling your order because of it.

Maybe they haven't pulled out completely, but just downgraded their pledges. Especially if they were getting multiple factions and their respective goodies, then decided to just stick with a couple instead.

No... people were expecting SOMETHING for the Boost Ex2.
If they put in and then were disappointed, you can leave.

Not quite the same.
More like going into McDonald's, ordering a Big Mac and hoping to get a sundae... but instead they offer you fries. Both still better than nothing... but if you were hoping for some delicious chocolate goodness you might not go through.

Man... I am hungry all of a sudden...
OFF TO SUBWAY

The McDonalds Anology is not entirly correct.


If you want to get down to the brass tacks, they are withdrawing because the KS project is becoming a little less organized then CMON's two previous ones. Now if that is because of SDE, or Sodapop, I really don't know,but there is a mean streak running through the comments section of the KS that is really discomforting. Mean spirited is a... nice way to put it.

As to the "Going in and asking for a..." It's more like you go in, ask for a hamburger, they give you a chicken sandwich and tell you they are going to give you a Coke, for free. Then the guy behind you reaches over and tells you that your being cheated, then you go up and the chicken sandwich is a hamburger, and the fries are a week old.

Number 1. The KS project in its entirety is reaching, and the goals seem as if they are being haphazardly thrown out there, just to push for more money. This project doesn't even seem to have an overall goal, except to sell stuff.

Number 2. These minis are being touted out there, and then they are being withdrawn from the project, reintroduced as something else, and then after a few more days, there seem to be more of the same, with a new tag on them. That doesn't seem to be as what happened with SW, or even Zombicide when they came out. Its as if the lessons learned are being ignored.

Number 3. Reading over the comments on KS and the rabid responses, there is no favors being done by some of the more... shall we say, vocal, of that group. If anything, those same comments are making others rethink even getting into the game, if that is the fanbase, I will go on out there and throw it to you that between the KS know it alls, and the smart aZZ'z, average joe gamer that wanted in on a sweet deal, because of all the stuff your getting, or supposedly getting, is being driven off.

And then theres the Number 4.

Bad to slow discussion coming from the KS page in according to the project.

It is as if people have to beat information out of the organizers of the project to find out information from the reactions of how the project is going every few minutes. Myself? I am back on the fence over them. I have plenty of minis, and they are a good deal, but theres still a few issues that seem to be generally glaring there that have not been dealt with, and are leading me to rethink even paying this anymore attention.

With SW, you had McVey pretty much going along with the project coinciding with discussion on thier project blog. This one? You are seeing excuses, doubletalk, and indecision.

This is coming from a company that has done two other spectacularly successful projects. I know they might be skittish based on that Tentical Bendito action that happened, but that should not be an excuse not to keep the focus, communicate, and have a clear goal here.

 Grot 6 wrote:
It's more like you go in, ask for a hamburger, they give you a chicken sandwich and tell you they are going to give you a Coke, for free. Then the guy behind you reaches over and tells you that your being cheated, then you go up and the chicken sandwich is a hamburger, and the fries are a week old.

That's even more convaluted (and wrong) than my analogy.

I've read the KS. I've looked at the big picture. It makes perfect sense to me. The SDE stuff is 100% optional and not at all needed by anyone who doesn't want it, and the stretch goals are really close together, meaning it's not days and days and days between new boosts or whatever.

Agreed, communication is bad on this one.
More updates and better structure would help a lot... but still it's not doing badly (half a miliion is nothing to quibble at)


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On that note, $430 hit!!
really interested in the SDE stuff (upped my pledge to the 4 starter sets to make sure I get both of them as well)

$30k more to go before revealing the new stretch goals.

Oh. My. Gosh!!!
that artwork is WAY better than I thought it could be.
Thank you thank you thank you!!!

Skully rocket! LOL!

They should reveal the stretch goals beforehand. That way we know what we're building to.

ON the note of money getting withdrawn it lost $4.5k today as a result of 1 All Dolled Up at $1,500 pulling out (later resold) and 1 Tell My Story $3000 withdrew so big money gone but only 2 pledges (there may have been a few smaller ones but that explains to big money)

Gabe and Tycho have new artwork as well

they are doing the same as the bones one (only 1 reveal at a time)... I cannot fault them for using that as a guide.

Just hope that the next Page of boosts are extra models as well (and not just Buy for $10).

Admittedly, if they do all of the main characters as SDE (and Noh as a bad guy... I means really, they ain't no 8-bit heroes!!) I will be in for each of them

Don't like Doctrine of the Corsairs, but I want those to minis. FF9000 will become some sort of major boss in my Dark Heresy campaign!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Yeah... but that makes even less sense. That’s like going into a McDonald’s, ordering a Big Mac meal, and being told that you get an apple pie for free and cancelling your order because of it.

Not everyone follows Kickstarters religiously on a daily basis like we tend to do here. I originally went in high and pulled my pledge out over a week layer when it wasn't looking like it was a worthwhile investment for me. People also go in with certain expectations (especially after Zombicide/SW) and may or may not pull out if they haven't been met at/by a certain time, or reallocate their money to other Kickstarters (Reaper, Dreamforge, whatever).

It's also amazingly easy to rort the stretch goals on these things with initial crazy-high pledges, and then pull them out later.

What's an example of a stretch goal being achieved and then pulled?

Ok after the email I got from them just now it says the Ex2 will be a second elite model.

So another 2 Lance/Shield guys, another tank, another Librarian, another daemon thingy with a gun, another Pace Bot, another breaching cannon.

That's my guess.

And you'd be right.

What Scipio.au was saying about boosts getting pulled was that sometimes people especially early in projects pledge a large sum say $2500 so as to make a stretch goal and then they pull that money out later on when it's not as important to the total - the boost doesn't get pulled just the money pledged to get there.

yeah, this does happen. Sad but true.

430+k achived BTW...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
What's an example of a stretch goal being achieved and then pulled?

Huh? Are you replying to my post? I'm talking about people pulling their pledges after a certain number of stretch goals have come if they don't find the overall package to their liking.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DaveC wrote:
And you'd be right.

What Scipio.au was saying about boosts getting pulled was that sometimes people especially early in projects pledge a large sum say $2500 so as to make a stretch goal and then they pull that money out later on when it's not as important to the total - the boost doesn't get pulled just the money pledged to get there.

yes, this exactly.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Makaleth wrote:
yeah, this does happen. Sad but true.

It's a side effect of these larger Kickstarters no longer being about the "goal", but about chasing stretch goals. Which in turns means the initial goal becomes a BS goal. The exception now being much smaller projects like Bruno's goblins or the Stuart's zombies or the Stonehaven dwarves. Campaigns like Tre's RBM and Mantic's KoW I believe started as truly about the goal, but since both went much much further and became "stretch-focused", subsequent campaigns from both will be "stretch-chaser" campaigns, as we're already seeing with DreadBall.

An off-topic question - anyone knows what happened to that Tentacle Bento game? SodaPop is surprisingly tight-lipped about that.

 Alkasyn wrote:
An off-topic question - anyone knows what happened to that Tentacle Bento game? SodaPop is surprisingly tight-lipped about that.

Have they? It was released, they had it at PAX, and were advertising it at Gencon..

I think it is on their site as well.

Alkasyn wrote:An off-topic question - anyone knows what happened to that Tentacle Bento game? SodaPop is surprisingly tight-lipped about that.

Soda Pop got it funded via their own website, but probably didn't make from as much from pledges as they would have had it remained on Kickstarter: http://girls.sodapopminiatures.com/content/fund-tentacle-bento

Makaleth wrote:No... people were expecting SOMETHING for the Boost Ex2.

I'm not sure why people were expecting so much here. The boost is in line with the others and it's a legitimately useful addition. Would completely new characters be preferable? Sure...but there's a catch. Zombicide and Sedition Wars were single-box board games with miniatures; the pre-order boxes could be loaded with free goodies without harming future efforts to push the games to stores. Relic Knights is a miniature game proper; Soda Pop can't make their pre-order such good value that stores won't carry their line because those who bought in early don't want extra units and those who didn't take umbrage at the inflated price of their buy-in. So Soda Pop have to walk a balancing act that sees the additional units in the starters being less than ideal but not poor, and sweetening the pot for the optional extras. I don't think they're doing too badly in this respect (and absolutely atrociously in others, such as showing updated and unpainted sculpts) but coming in as late as I have my perspective is necessarily going to be different from those of you who have been following this from the start. I can understand why some of you would be feeling disappointed, frustrated...even angry. To hazard a guess, Soda Pop were dragging out their stretch goals so they'd unlock the rest of the SDE chibi's, another optional extra and boost for each faction (which is where you would see Sophia and the Black Dragons, for exampe), and maybe free Darkspace alternates for the starters (I'm not sure what else they could add without running into the problem mentioned above, other than perhaps terrain) only shortly before their projected final total and it's biting them in the ass.

 Grot 6 wrote:
Number 2. These minis are being touted out there, and then they are being withdrawn from the project, reintroduced as something else, and then after a few more days, there seem to be more of the same, with a new tag on them. That doesn't seem to be as what happened with SW, or even Zombicide when they came out. Its as if the lessons learned are being ignored.

Could anyone elaborate on this? Was it serious dickery or just poor communication?

 Construct wrote:

Makaleth wrote:No... people were expecting SOMETHING for the Boost Ex2.

I'm not sure why people were expecting so much here. The boost is in line with the others and it's a legitimately useful addition. Would completely new characters be preferable? Sure...but there's a catch. Zombicide and Sedition Wars were single-box board games with miniatures; the pre-order boxes could be loaded with free goodies without harming future efforts to push the games to stores. Relic Knights is a miniature game proper; Soda Pop can't make their pre-order such good value that stores won't carry their line because those who bought in early don't want extra units and those who didn't take umbrage at the inflated price of their buy-in.
...

The inflated prices and lack of extra models reasoning is sound. I agree with that. But it reinforces to me that the Goal in itself wasn't great and people were expecting more... hence potentially leaving the kickstarter.

I am the opposite. I have upped my pledge recently. But other than the Black diamond and Shattered Sword... the last goals didn't really do much for me. Particularly for Cerci... why would you want another PACE robot...

gotta admit after being reluctant to pledge then finally deciding to give it a go I am very tempted now to pull out. A stretch goal should reward the investor not attempt to fleece him of more money.

Both.

In the beginning of the KS project, the base teams had different models in them that were removed and later came back as KS streach goals. Then they decided that that was an ok move, and didn't say anything else about it, other then add in more basic troop types as other stretch goals. As well as change the goalpost, they give the impression that the KS is not in fact to fund the game to plastic, but to in fact make more money just on account of adding in the additional " Option to buy" supposed goals.

No one is coming right out and saying it, but I will go on and throw it out there that just giving an option to buy something as a goal is part in parcel of the dickery here. The other issues were the changing goalposts, the lack of the communication, and the inclusion of things that didn't have anything to do with the project to begin with.

As was stated in the beginning of the campaign, the goal started out to- "Fund the game in plastic." Then it became about- "Oh, look at the shiny". Then it became- "Lets continue to push streach goals based on the game. Then it became- "Hey, this streach goal thing is getting harder to project, lets push a few more ( Of the same) minis, and push the direction to include the additional materials needed to play the game. ( Cards, tokens... bases, extra troops). Then it became " Hey, lets add in the SDE stuff, based on Relic Knights, and we will push SDE along with it."

I don't even need to go into the obvious, inclusion of the secondary game in this kickstarter, to increase the "interest" in Relic Knight based on the already established success of SDE.

My other opinion is that they were haphazard in the comunication between the streach goals and some of the goals give the impression that they are just being thrown out there as eye candy with no other goal then to get a few more 10- 20 dollar pledges. Two weeks into the goal, and the silence was the loudest. Three weeks into the goals and we start seeing more figures. four or so more weeks and we see the inclusion of SDE. All through it, the comments page was like reading about a fight, between a silent Sodapop, rabid fans, and other people in the mix that were genuinly confused and asked questions, and were pounced on, and then after the fact silent reaction was given to the ongoing comments.

Then some of the comments from those supposed "spokesmen/ commenters" themselves didn't do the game any favors.

The Super Dungeon Explore is an already established game, It is a very good one, as well- BUT did not have anything to do with this, until they decided to put it out there that it was an established part of the Relic Knight Mythos...

 Cyporiean wrote:

 Alkasyn wrote:
An off-topic question - anyone knows what happened to that Tentacle Bento game? SodaPop is surprisingly tight-lipped about that.

Have they? It was released, they had it at PAX, and were advertising it at Gencon..

As you may imagine, both PAX and Gencon are quite far away for me.

By tight-lipped i meant no information on the site and the official pledge subsite given a couple post above in this thread had no updates.

I heard September is the release month for the game, though.

Grot, c'mon. It's two models - optional models that you don't have to purchase. What's the big deal?

On Tentacle Bento - they are still saying it is a September release on their website.

On Relic Knights - more Relic Knights stretch goals please!

Though I'd be willing to bet the next RK specific stretch goal will be of the "pay (x) to get (y)" variety, and then maybe after that there will be some more "free" goals...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Grot, c'mon. It's two models - optional models that you don't have to purchase. What's the big deal?

Here is the deal, you are expecting to fund with your pledges the relic knights game, a 30k stretch that funds the creation of a single miniature, unrelated to the game you are supposed to help fund and on top of that be expected to pay to get, does not sit well.

I personally see it as a wasted slot to things I would be more interested see, like for example black dragons, or extra variant for the minions or terrain or alternative questing knights, or questing knights versions of the existing relic knights, in any case relic knights related.

And from my point of view people left yesterday, I saw free slots to early birds (I actually grabbed one) and the highest pledges like tel my story are by definitions to die hard fans, hard to see people that dedicated simply walking away if they were not severely dissatisfied.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
Here is the deal, you are expecting to fund with your pledges the relic knights game, a 30k stretch that funds the creation of a single miniature, unrelated to the game you are supposed to help fund and on top of that be expected to pay to get, does not sit well.

Nope. If the goal is 30K to fund a single mini, and then after that goal is met they add a new goal to fund something related (or only slightly related) then it changes nothing. The original goal you funded is funded and you get what you wanted from that funding. You're not "expected" to do anything more.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Nope. If the goal is 30K to fund a single mini, and then after that goal is met they add a new goal to fund something related (or only slightly related) then it changes nothing. The original goal you funded is funded and you get what you wanted from that funding. You're not "expected" to do anything more.

And without surprise that is what is happening, the project is grinding to next stretch goals, the discussion is negative and people have left, downgraded or, consider to downgrade.

Personally I feel this kickstarter has big problems on planning, communication, generating excitement and giving you reasons to spend more, the presentation is simply bad.

People see each streachgoal as means to secure more money for models production, its easy to tie in SDE models and the money related to their streachgoal as funding for them, then you are expected to buy them, this could be presented far far better like SW did, hey mini x$ streachgoal related to the miniature, I do not think there would be much dissatisfaction if for example they did a tie in with SDE if they absolutely had to shove it in the RK kickstarter, for example questing knight form of X relic knight for x$ streachgoal tie in SD SDE version for free.

Well done on grabbing the early bird spot.

It may well have come vacant from somebody moving up (I lost mine that way), as the higher levels save you more than the early bird

The chibi versions of the RK were always on the Soda Pop packaging, and I belive them when they say they get a lot of requests for figures in that stye (even though they arn't for me)

In a poll on their facebook site asking what fans of the company wanted more of SDE outscored RK about 6 to 1 so if some of the SDE fans are pulled in it will be a big win for the project

They have, though, not kept on top of the comments/
questions in the way we hoped for. Conventions may be great for word of mouth but they suck in terms of monopolising a companies time (Gencon, PAX et al)

(I guess first Mike McVey on Sedition Wars, and the Reaper crew on Bones has spoiled us)

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
And without surprise that is what is happening, the project is grinding to next stretch goals, the discussion is negative and people have left, downgraded or, consider to downgrade.

...

People see each streachgoal as means to secure more money for models production, its easy to tie in SDE models and the money related to their streachgoal as funding for them, then you are expected to buy them, this could be presented far far better like SW did, hey mini x$ streachgoal related to the miniature, I do not think there would be much dissatisfaction if for example they did a tie in with SDE if they absolutely had to shove it in the RK kickstarter, for example questing knight form of X relic knight for x$ streachgoal tie in SD SDE version for free.

You're not expected to buy anything. The downgrading doesn't make any sense. It's not like you're getting less for your already pledged money. Why does what is added later impact at all on what you pledged for in the first place? It's just a bonus at that point for helping them get the funding in the first place.

I come back to my McDonald's example:

"Welcome to McDonald's sir. What would you like to order?"
"I think I'll have a large Big Mac meal."
"No problem. We've sold 200 of those today, so anyone who wants can Super-Size that meal for free."
"But I don't want to super-size it... in fact... now I don't want the Big Mac at all! I hate McDonald's! DIE IN A FIRE!"
*runs from store screaming about a lack of communication*

See how that doesn't make any fething sense whatsoever (and not just because of the ultra-polite McDonald's employee! )? The goal was X, and requires Y. You pledged Z because you really want X, and enough people also pledged Z, reaching Y, allowing for X to be made. Just because they go and add A, B and C on doesn't make what you did in the first place any different. You're either getting it for free as part of your initial pledge (so who cares?) or you have to pay extra for it, but if you don't want it, you don't have to do anything. Get it yet?

But forget Relics for a second. Forget Soda Pop. Forget even CMON. Let's look at Dreamforge. Say I want one - and only one - of those Crusaders. I pledge for one. The Kickstarter continues, and troops are added, additional weapons, different scales and so on. I still only want one Crusader, so I'm not expected to do anything nor would I remove my pledge because other things have become part of the KS.

Ugh - no more McDonalds analogies, please.

It is fairly simple - RK fans are disappointed by Non-RK stretch Goals.

I don't think it is any more complicated than that!

Except, this isn't "buying" at McDonald's. This is investing in a company.

"I'd like to buy some McD's stock because I think they will be expanding the number of stores in China."
"Great, we plan on adding three stores in China. If we get more money than that, we're going to explore the idea of space travel. Would you like to invest more in that?"
"No. My money is going toward the extra store in China, right?"
"Well, the first part. But then we're dumping money in the space exploration thing. You sure you don't want to invest there?"
"But, if you have the money to buy addition store in China, over the three you planned, why don't you just invest in more stores? That was the plan..."
"Oh, we might. But first we really wanna go to space."

Seriously guys - enough with the analogies already.

Maybe the difference is whether you pledge expecting:

1: Only the initial stuff advertised. Anything else is a nice bonus and if it's useless to you, it's regarded as free, so it doesn't matter?

2: The initial stuff, plus good stuff from the stretches. You're also investing in the expectation of good stretches, so if they're not to your taste, it's seen as a poor return on the investment.

I'm in the first camp, but I can understand the second.

I find it pretty strange to complain about the stretch goals. They're extras. You should be satisfied with the "reward" as it is at the time you make the pledge. Otherwise don't freakin' pledge!

Are people seriously pledging despite not liking the current rewards, but thinking that it'll end up being 6 times as much extra stuff for free in the end like Reaper and then raging when it's not?

Not so much any more,

But I'm sure a fair number of the 'early birds' from the first couple of days did.

They'd seen zombicide/sedition wars and thought there'd be that value imedialy. Those sort of questions/comments on the feed have just about dried up so they're either gone or happy now

 Elemental wrote:
Maybe the difference is whether you pledge expecting:

1: Only the initial stuff advertised. Anything else is a nice bonus and if it's useless to you, it's regarded as free, so it doesn't matter?

2: The initial stuff, plus good stuff from the stretches. You're also investing in the expectation of good stretches, so if they're not to your taste, it's seen as a poor return on the investment.

I'm in the first camp, but I can understand the second.

I'm in the first camp. I don't care if they release anything else as I'm happy with what's out.

The people who are unhappy because of the stretch goals are insane. This is a lower price than you will ever be able to get in the future. Look at what's in the faction starters and decide if that's for you. Then look at the add-ons and decide which, if any, you'd like to spend money on. Don't base your decision on what might be available.

I'd pay to watch some of these people buy a new car. " What?!?!? Leather seats & a sunroof cost extra! I think it should be included 50% below MSRP! My buddy just bought 10 Yugos for that price!"

 Bat Manuel wrote:

 Elemental wrote:
Maybe the difference is whether you pledge expecting:

1: Only the initial stuff advertised. Anything else is a nice bonus and if it's useless to you, it's regarded as free, so it doesn't matter?

2: The initial stuff, plus good stuff from the stretches. You're also investing in the expectation of good stretches, so if they're not to your taste, it's seen as a poor return on the investment.

I'm in the first camp, but I can understand the second.

I'm in the first camp. I don't care if they release anything else as I'm happy with what's out.

The people who are unhappy because of the stretch goals are insane. This is a lower price than you will ever be able to get in the future. Look at what's in the faction starters and decide if that's for you. Then look at the add-ons and decide which, if any, you'd like to spend money on. Don't base your decision on what might be available.

I'd pay to watch some of these people buy a new car. " What?!?!? Leather seats & a sunroof cost extra! I think it should be included 50% below MSRP! My buddy just bought 10 Yugos for that price!"

Only that's not how that kind of sale is handled and that isn't what the issues with this Kickstarter are about - at all.

 Bat Manuel wrote:

 Elemental wrote:
Maybe the difference is whether you pledge expecting:

1: Only the initial stuff advertised. Anything else is a nice bonus and if it's useless to you, it's regarded as free, so it doesn't matter?

2: The initial stuff, plus good stuff from the stretches. You're also investing in the expectation of good stretches, so if they're not to your taste, it's seen as a poor return on the investment.

I'm in the first camp, but I can understand the second.

I'm in the first camp. I don't care if they release anything else as I'm happy with what's out.

The people who are unhappy because of the stretch goals are insane. This is a lower price than you will ever be able to get in the future. Look at what's in the faction starters and decide if that's for you. Then look at the add-ons and decide which, if any, you'd like to spend money on. Don't base your decision on what might be available.

I'd pay to watch some of these people buy a new car. " What?!?!? Leather seats & a sunroof cost extra! I think it should be included 50% below MSRP! My buddy just bought 10 Yugos for that price!"

Let's look at it another way: Some people want the models, but not at the current price, and definitely not at the retail price. For instance, I really like the models (I own first runs of some of Soda Pop's stuff) but I can't justify the purchase unless it is a really good deal due to cash flow issues. Now, add ons are fine, but they don't increase the value of the base pledge, so they don't do anything for me. A few more models included in the 100$ price though, that would offer more value, and make it more worth it. Since I want to drop 100$ and get the models, I want stretch goals that add neat things so it hits the point I am happy paying 100$. Right now... it isn't quite there.

To summarize, the new models for more $$ stretch goals are indifferent to people like me who want more value for the money. They make me unhappy in the sense that I would be more happy if they gave me more stuff for 100$ instead, but in and of themselves are not a problem. However, if I don't end up backing this for 100$ because the value isn't there, I will be less happy than if the value is there and I get it.

So, people who are not happy with the stretch goals are not insane, but rather want more value in that Soda Pop package.

Also, you should pay to watch my wife buy a car. It is somewhat like that, but she walks out with a car, lots of options, and a price well below the sticker price. I don't really see how negotiating for cars is particularly relevant to wanting more value for the money, even if you would like to have something, seeing as how it is not a direct negotiation with the KS.

It kind of bugs me that they won't show me the stretch goal till I've actually hit it.

It kind of bugs me that I have to spend money to help get to a stretch goal that I want, and it then comes out as an option that I have to pay for too especially when it's figure (man sized) and to top that off I have to pay retail for it....I'm not that Kickstarter experienced, I'll admit that up front, but is that the way it goes? I mean I understand big assed options like the Black Diamond one (having paid for the Clockwork Dragon and the DracoLich in the Reaper campaign), but man sized stuff??? ***spoiled by reaper, I guess***

As far as SDE stretches, they've released two so far. They've also got Candy and Cola. They should have released the entire line up at once as a single SDE stretch goal so they could get back to real, RK related stretches.

Reaper did not have to sculpt new models for the majority of the Bones line.

Art/Sculpting costs are generally greater then the molding costs (for metals/resins).

well considering they have the art for most of what people asked for, and the resin/ metal models too, I don't see a reason why they cannot release them as streachgoals at all, if nothing else they admitted they just created the art for the bases and the art for the mechanic add-on, so creating the art is not really the issue from my point of view.

They still have to sculpt things.

 Cyporiean wrote:
Reaper did not have to sculpt new models for the majority of the Bones line.

Art/Sculpting costs are generally greater then the molding costs (for metals/resins).

Very true.

Which is why its super questionable to ask for money in KS for a product (RK), then use that money for another product (SDE). Money INVESTED in RK is going to be used to model, frame and produce the SDE minis. Yes, people ALSO have to pay for the SDE minis, but SodaPop is asking for this investment money, that should be tied to RK, to make the molds.

I'm just about completely turned off by this KS. I don't think the investment in RK is going to come through. If the company is so small or ill-run that viable questions can;t be answered, how are they ever going to finish all these models and produce them in a timely manner?

The way I heard it, the chibi RK characters had initially been planned simply as display minis, so basically RK memorabilia. Then they decided to tack on SDE rules to sweeten the pot, but they were always meant to be a RK thing, not a SDE thing.

 Cyporiean wrote:
Reaper did not have to sculpt new models for the majority of the Bones line.

Actually the Storm Giants in the Bones Campaign were concepts that we got as freebies when we hit a stretch. The Clockwork Dragon, Nethyrmaul, and Kaladrax afforementioned were also concepts, granted I paid for those options, but they're also big minis...and I didn't pay retail -$50 for 3 dragon models (the smallest of which being 7 inches in height) isn't retail.

Art/Sculpting costs are generally greater then the molding costs (for metals/resins).

Yeah but $10 a fig for plastic is pretty much retail pricing. It's about what I'd pay for an Anima Tactic fig, which are metals. What's exactly my incentive to help them make their stretch if I have to then then purchase it at retail? Shouldn't there be some discount involved?

I get the $25/$35 faction addons. Stretch goals are adding to that pile as well so they'll be worth their price vs. what you'd actually pay once Relic Knights hit's the stores next year. I guess I mainly don't get the$10 cosplays and Penny Arcades and SDEs. They're all getting done in plastic, which are made with steel molds that will essentially last forever...and are expensive. The arguement that we're only going to be making a small number of these for cons kind of escapes me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cyporiean wrote:
They still have to sculpt things.

I wonder how much a mini sculptor actually gets paid per sculpt.

 Bat Manuel wrote:

 Elemental wrote:
Maybe the difference is whether you pledge expecting:

1: Only the initial stuff advertised. Anything else is a nice bonus and if it's useless to you, it's regarded as free, so it doesn't matter?

2: The initial stuff, plus good stuff from the stretches. You're also investing in the expectation of good stretches, so if they're not to your taste, it's seen as a poor return on the investment.

I'm in the first camp, but I can understand the second.

I'm in the first camp. I don't care if they release anything else as I'm happy with what's out.

The people who are unhappy because of the stretch goals are insane. This is a lower price than you will ever be able to get in the future. Look at what's in the faction starters and decide if that's for you. Then look at the add-ons and decide which, if any, you'd like to spend money on. Don't base your decision on what might be available.

I'd pay to watch some of these people buy a new car. " What?!?!? Leather seats & a sunroof cost extra! I think it should be included 50% below MSRP! My buddy just bought 10 Yugos for that price!"

What's the retail price gonna be for the plastic Relic Knight models? I've been trying to find it but have only run into the metal/resin prices.

The incentive is that the item made, which is what the point of Kickstarter was before the CMON/Ogre explosion of Kickstarters this year. Items on Kickstarter were often more expensive then the retail price... as your trying to help the group get whatever they are trying to do get done. This trend of throwing lots of freebies at people is pretty new, and not fair to smaller groups who need every penny raised to see their dream made.

For instance, on the Gamers 3: Hands of Fate Kickstarter its $50 for a DVD of the film.

 Cyporiean wrote:
They still have to sculpt things.

I wonder how much a mini sculptor actually gets paid per sculpt.

Depends on the sculptor, the size of the sculpt, and how many 'extras' are needed.

The lowest price we've paid is $150 with an average of $350, for an infantry figure and double that for cavalry. Additional arms/weapons or heads usually end up being $25~$50 per bit.

We've received quotes of around $650 for an infantry figure in the past, and $2~3k for a model the size of the Relic Knight robots.

Low end for a vanity sculpt (not for me I might add) seemed to be around £300 ($500) about a year back

but that would be for a not-major league sculptor making a simple monopose figure for spin casting.

I expect a major name would be a lot more, with extra added on for detail and for casting complexity if it needed to come with poseable arms/head etc

Ninja'd by Cyporean (who quotes cheaper prices as well, but I guess that could be accounted for by repeat business possibilities and 'trade prices')

 Cyporiean wrote:
They still have to sculpt things.

And this is were the streach goal comes in, they calculate how much it should cost (sculpt, moulds ectr) announce the model and set the streach goal and people pledge money for the extra stuff, goal reached, model is funded, backers get it and everybody is happy.

And here lies an issue, Duplicate models (if we hit this you will get more of the same), are essentially models people have theoretically already payed for, then again its a nice way to cover unexpected but lets see an issue, unlocking an entire starter was unlocked at 20k streach, a single big unit from the starter at 30k.

on top of that the streach goals keep moving away from each other while the backers pledges do not follow the same pace, making streach goals taking more time to be achieved, looking like steam and enthusiasm is lost.

Personally, I would prefer stretch goals to be more of the same models you are getting, with perhaps big mile stones being new models added. The company pays out less money (as the marginal cost for adding 3-4 of the same model is lower than adding a newly sculpted/cast model) but the value for me seems greater. It is nice to add options and hope they pay for themselves, but honestly if they want to entice people to jump in who were not willing before, they have to up the value proposition for those folks. Models that you have to pay extra for are very unlikely to do that, unless you want them more than their cost, and that happens to tip things.

But then that may just be me

personally I would love to see streachgoals be split between, game addons (like the augmented cards for example), extras for existing miniatures (like sedition wars female troopers substituting some of the male troopers), extra of the same units like they have done, new units and addons for existing units.

And finally some incentive to spend more money, somebody who had got his faction and the additional cannot spend more money even if he wanted, why not have more additional.

and while we are at it why the blackout of communication on that? to find out there is a battlemat to purchase, you must either click the guide (but does not mentions shipping costs) or find the relevant update, its otherwise hidden from view.

 MightyGodzilla wrote:

I get the $25/$35 faction addons. Stretch goals are adding to that pile as well so they'll be worth their price vs. what you'd actually pay once Relic Knights hit's the stores next year. I guess I mainly don't get the$10 cosplays and Penny Arcades and SDEs. They're all getting done in plastic, which are made with steel molds that will essentially last forever...and are expensive. The arguement that we're only going to be making a small number of these for cons kind of escapes me.

I don't think this will be injection molded plastic. More like the quasi-plastic used by PP, Mantic, etc.

Me?

I just want to know what's after 460K, because clearly that will be hit soon.

 Cyporiean wrote:

 Cyporiean wrote:
They still have to sculpt things.

I wonder how much a mini sculptor actually gets paid per sculpt.

Depends on the sculptor, the size of the sculpt, and how many 'extras' are needed.

The lowest price we've paid is $150 with an average of $350, for an infantry figure and double that for cavalry. Additional arms/weapons or heads usually end up being $25~$50 per bit.

We've received quotes of around $650 for an infantry figure in the past, and $2~3k for a model the size of the Relic Knight robots.

Agreed being I deal with sculptors now on daily basis as multiple projects going atm. Also who the sculptor is matters a lot too as I have several who are charging me 575 euros per fig and one I spoke to is 700 Australian dollars per 30mm fig so their is a lot of variables that go into play. Not to mention Plastic casting is by in large the most costly of all of the casting systems since the mould has to be hand drilled (though good companys use machines now adays) and I have recieved quotes of 20-30k Euros for one mould. So you figure you will have two to three different sprues in the box so ya you get the idea.

I can understand people wanting RK stretch goals but personally I am tapped out on the models as I don't want ANY more from these. I will already have tons and it will take a long time to get them painted as I have so many other projects going on. Honestly for the sedition wars and those of you who bought in, are you honestly EVER going to paint the 90 some odd models from it.. most likely not. I just sold off from my personal about $300 of McVey limited minis as I know I will never get to them since they have been hanging around my house for years. I have learned one major thing from gaming in the 18 years I have had this hobby, and that gamers are hoarders. I am getting a killer deal for my buck from this and as I stated before this is still better then I would get AND I HAVE A RETAILERS ACCOUNT WITH CMON!!!! I mean seriously people you are getting a killer deal and you just want more more more...that hurts my head.

 Empchild wrote:


...I just sold off from my personal about $300 of McVey limited minis as I know I will never get to them since they have been hanging around my house for years. I have learned one major thing from gaming in the 18 years I have had this hobby, and that gamers are hoarders...

But you know when you finish painting your very last mini you die right????

 MightyGodzilla wrote:

 Empchild wrote:


...I just sold off from my personal about $300 of McVey limited minis as I know I will never get to them since they have been hanging around my house for years. I have learned one major thing from gaming in the 18 years I have had this hobby, and that gamers are hoarders...

But you know when you finish painting your very last mini you die right????

If only that were true sometimes .

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

You're not expected to buy anything. The downgrading doesn't make any sense. It's not like you're getting less for your already pledged money. Why does what is added later impact at all on what you pledged for in the first place? It's just a bonus at that point for helping them get the funding in the first place.

I come back to my McDonald's example:

People don't care about your McDonalds example, and I'll explain why.

 scipio.au wrote:

It's a side effect of these larger Kickstarters no longer being about the "goal", but about chasing stretch goals. Which in turns means the initial goal becomes a BS goal. The exception now being much smaller projects like Bruno's goblins or the Stuart's zombies or the Stonehaven dwarves. Campaigns like Tre's RBM and Mantic's KoW I believe started as truly about the goal, but since both went much much further and became "stretch-focused", subsequent campaigns from both will be "stretch-chaser" campaigns, as we're already seeing with DreadBall.

Many people aren't pledging for the initial items. In some cases, the initial "sweet spot" is actually poor value initially. (RK, DreadBall). They're pledging based on a perception that there will be a metric shirtload of stuff added to that level. - based on Zombicide, Sedition Wars, Mantic, Reaper. Especially with the "Early Bird"pledges, people go in early expecting a lot more. If their expectations aren't met, they leave.

To use an equally-convoluted KFC example. - They're not going in and expecting to only get a Twister Combo meal. They're expecting it to turn out to be a 20-piece bucket with 4 sides. When it turns into a 12-piece box with 2 sides and the chance to buy more chicken and sides separately, or a few slices of Pizza Hut (also owned by the same parent company), they get pissed off that they're not getting the amount of chicken they expected, so they leave.

Basically, at $100 for saviour, people aren't pledging for what it says on the tin. They're pledging for what it says on the tin, plus a few extra tins that they will find to their liking. You can blame the consumers, but blame the (minis) companies just as much for turning Kickstarter into "stretch-goal-a-go-go" instead of "help us hit this real, actual, goal".

The kickstarter began to move Relic Knights forward and take it from a few models to a full fledged game.

To achieve this the money will be used to "greatly accelerate the pace of sculpting, and now all six factions will be in high grade plastic!"

So mission accomplished. We did it guys! Relic Knights is going to be a viable miniatures game as of hitting the $20,000 mark. SPM have done what they set out to do. Everything after that was icing on the cake.

Stretch goals are additional funding for goals set after the initial or main goal. Thus the funding up until this point has been not just for the Relic Knights tabletop game, but also for:

Expediting manufacturing of all six RK factions

Casino quality cards

Base inserts

Plastic tokens

Special Edition miniatures

Faction Starter Boosts

Optional Extras

Optional Extras Boosts!

More base inserts

Collectively, we have paid for all those goals to be reached. I don't believe it's unfair, then, that someone disagree with the handling of the reward or fulfillment of those goals.

Ultimately, everyone's going to decide for themselves if they're in or out.

 Empchild wrote:

 MightyGodzilla wrote:

 Empchild wrote:


...I just sold off from my personal about $300 of McVey limited minis as I know I will never get to them since they have been hanging around my house for years. I have learned one major thing from gaming in the 18 years I have had this hobby, and that gamers are hoarders...

But you know when you finish painting your very last mini you die right????

If only that were true sometimes .

Yes to a degree we are hoarders... But due to life constrains I managed to let go a huge part of my collections and probably more to go... So I'm closer to the rip land

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I find it pretty strange to complain about the stretch goals. They're extras. You should be satisfied with the "reward" as it is at the time you make the pledge. Otherwise don't freakin' pledge!

Are people seriously pledging despite not liking the current rewards, but thinking that it'll end up being 6 times as much extra stuff for free in the end like Reaper and then raging when it's not?

It doesn't mean people are pledging today and not liking what's there. They could have pledged 2 or 3 weeks ago and don't like how things have panned out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alpharius wrote:
Ugh - no more McDonalds analogies, please.

Sorry Alph! Didn't see this post as I've been replying as I read my way down the page. Though I think my KFC example does illustrate the point a little better in terms of expectations and outcomes.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:

Ninja'd by Cyporean (who quotes cheaper prices as well, but I guess that could be accounted for by repeat business possibilities and 'trade prices')

I can quote higher prices, but I'm going off the ones I'm willing to pay

IIRC the gent who did the 'Druid Gone Wilder' and new Ashylnn sculpts charges around $700 for a 30mm sculpt.

 Empchild wrote:

 Cyporiean wrote:

 Cyporiean wrote:
They still have to sculpt things.

I wonder how much a mini sculptor actually gets paid per sculpt.

Depends on the sculptor, the size of the sculpt, and how many 'extras' are needed.

The lowest price we've paid is $150 with an average of $350, for an infantry figure and double that for cavalry. Additional arms/weapons or heads usually end up being $25~$50 per bit.

We've received quotes of around $650 for an infantry figure in the past, and $2~3k for a model the size of the Relic Knight robots.

Agreed being I deal with sculptors now on daily basis as multiple projects going atm. Also who the sculptor is matters a lot too as I have several who are charging me 575 euros per fig and one I spoke to is 700 Australian dollars per 30mm fig so their is a lot of variables that go into play. Not to mention Plastic casting is by in large the most costly of all of the casting systems since the mould has to be hand drilled (though good companys use machines now adays) and I have recieved quotes of 20-30k Euros for one mould. So you figure you will have two to three different sprues in the box so ya you get the idea.

I can understand people wanting RK stretch goals but personally I am tapped out on the models as I don't want ANY more from these. I will already have tons and it will take a long time to get them painted as I have so many other projects going on. Honestly for the sedition wars and those of you who bought in, are you honestly EVER going to paint the 90 some odd models from it.. most likely not. I just sold off from my personal about $300 of McVey limited minis as I know I will never get to them since they have been hanging around my house for years. I have learned one major thing from gaming in the 18 years I have had this hobby, and that gamers are hoarders. I am getting a killer deal for my buck from this and as I stated before this is still better then I would get AND I HAVE A RETAILERS ACCOUNT WITH CMON!!!! I mean seriously people you are getting a killer deal and you just want more more more...that hurts my head.

Thats the thing though.

If it was just about getting a few extra minis and pushing the game that wouldn't even be the issue. The issue here is the P.P. planing that has shot this KS project in the foot. The less then steller attittude that, "Oh, just throw a few more options to buy and all is forgiven..."

Yes, It IS a very good deal, but there is more to it then just "Oh, were throwing everything but the kitchen sink at you, why are you complaining?"

As was already said time and again, the level of suck that is coming with the grief given this project is just staggering. People here and on the KS page are putting this thing up on the preverbial pedistal, and then shooting anyone who has an issue with the subpar communciation, the musical figures shell game, and the haphazard road that this KS project has taken. Yes, it is down to 5 days, but what exactly was going on for the entire time?

CMON has put thier name behind this. SODA POP MINIATURES has put thier name behind this. The levels of quality that BOTH OF these entities are known for are not being kept as this project has moved forward.

Yes, I for one, don't have an issue with the numbers of minis. The issue is with the stop and go way in which this project has been run. With all of the other excuses, now we get still another one. "Oh, your getting tons of minis, why are you complaining?"...

It is not such a killer deal when you have to keep going back and seeing a completely different project every couple of days/ weeks. (Without any discussion for that matter.)Then the "Updates" as being just a shell game of a complete change to the KS project as a whole? Seriously, thats ok?- In what world?

When I put hard earned coin down, I am not just throwing it out there and giving some fan of the pretty little shineys license to bad mouth me if I have a legitamate issue, and it is being shouted down by mob mentality. "Oh, your getting a good deal, what are you crying about..." The issue I had and still have is that, You are asking for over 600 and something bucks for a game. I as someone throwing down that ahrd earned coin kind of expect that if I put down money on something, thats what I am going to get. Not "Oh, were removing so and so and adding this close second. Then we will bring back this original figure as an option to buy for you."

What is the issue? The issue is that this was, in the beginning to fund a new game. After the less then steller reaction to the so called, "Backers-Fans" and zero to no discussion, all the while using GENCON as an excuse, the project is being run by a team of monkeys that have no other vision then to just slash and burn as much money as they can before the end of the time limit of the project. For the entire time of the Kickstarter.


Yes, people are pointing back time and again at the Sedition Wars, Zombicide, and Reaper projects. You want to know why? Because they were organized, the people who pushed them actually cared about the project an it wasn't just a communications spankfest for the backer fan-boi commenters of the over the top sculpts.

We actually had the game makers and designers of the other games and figures communicate, almost daily and at the very least ONCE a day, if not more. There was a clear, well thought out discussion as to where the project was, where they wanted to take it, and what the goals were. The discussions were centered on What the game was doing, the here and now through-out the projects, and the issues that came up about the project, or questions were dealt with in a timly manner and not just thrown to the mob of the fan boi peanut gallery. They were dealt head on and directly by the Project designers.

And on that point as well?

If your a game designer, I - as a fan really could care less about your so called "Production Issues" when you begin a project with a large goal and an empty tank. If you can't handle the heat don't push lofty expectations. Your production costs don't concern me. If it costs a 1000 bucks, and you need it, then it would be in your best interest to look to fund that 1000 for what you originally need to do then to go out there and ask for 500 more for something else, and not even say a thing about it for over two or three weeks...

And when this project is already at over 449 and going to over 500,000 bucks THAT is not even a conversation here.

Had the communication been better, the levels more organized, and the visuals been cleaner- This project could have very well been over 700,000 and climbing right now. Instead, the message being sent by this project right now is... "Oh, look... shiney! Glad if we can hurry up and finish this off."

I see your point grot but what did they take away?

 Alpharius wrote:
It is fairly simple - RK fans are disappointed by Non-RK stretch Goals.

Of which there are a whole two. *gasp*
And neither of which require any more money, because they've already pledged. *double gasp*
Meaning that the goals impact them in zero ways. *triple super gasp*

Here's how i look at it. I wanted a steak dinner so.i went out and bought one. During the dinner the waitress decided she liked my sexy self and gave me free drinks. Oddly that used to happen alot though not as much since i had a ring on my finger. I get wanting to know what's next for stretch goals and i agreds on thay but otherwise this is the same as the other cmon produced ks.

 MightyGodzilla wrote:
It kind of bugs me that they won't show me the stretch goal till I've actually hit it.

See that annoys me as well. That's something they shouldn't be doing, and not something I've seen a kick starter do. Stretch goals are meant to encourage buy-in, not act as a secret reward for those that leap before they look.

 scipio.au wrote:
To use an equally-convoluted KFC example. - They're not going in and expecting to only get a Twister Combo meal. They're expecting it to turn out to be a 20-piece bucket with 4 sides. When it turns into a 12-piece box with 2 sides and the chance to buy more chicken and sides separately, or a few slices of Pizza Hut (also owned by the same parent company), they get pissed off that they're not getting the amount of chicken they expected, so they leave.

Then that's a load of bs entitlement.

They clearly list what you get for each pledge level. Anything after that is a bonus. Any optional add-ons are just that, optional. Expecting more for your 'investment' is just nonsense. You're buying a product, and as more people buy it you get a few things for free added on top of that.

 scipio.au wrote:
It doesn't mean people are pledging today and not liking what's there. They could have pledged 2 or 3 weeks ago and don't like how things have panned out.

Panned out? Are they suddenly not getting what they pledged for initially? Of course not. They're getting more than what they paid for. When I go into McDonald's (here we go again) I don't buy a Big Mac and hope that everyone else around me does so too so I get free fries (and then leave with nothing when I don't get it). I go in there to buy a Big Mac, and if all I get is that Big Mac... then I got what I paid for, didn't I? If I get anything more than that, then it's a bonus.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 scipio.au wrote:
To use an equally-convoluted KFC example. - They're not going in and expecting to only get a Twister Combo meal. They're expecting it to turn out to be a 20-piece bucket with 4 sides. When it turns into a 12-piece box with 2 sides and the chance to buy more chicken and sides separately, or a few slices of Pizza Hut (also owned by the same parent company), they get pissed off that they're not getting the amount of chicken they expected, so they leave.

Then that's a load of bs entitlement.

They clearly list what you get for each pledge level. Anything after that is a bonus. Any optional add-ons are just that, optional. Expecting more for your 'investment' is just nonsense. You're buying a product, and as more people buy it you get a few things for free added on top of that.

 scipio.au wrote:
It doesn't mean people are pledging today and not liking what's there. They could have pledged 2 or 3 weeks ago and don't like how things have panned out.

Panned out? Are they suddenly not getting what they pledged for initially? Of course not. They're getting more than what they paid for. When I go into McDonald's (here we go again) I don't buy a Big Mac and hope that everyone else around me does so too so I get free fries (and then leave with nothing when I don't get it). I go in there to buy a Big Mac, and if all I get is that Big Mac... then I got what I paid for, didn't I? If I get anything more than that, then it's a bonus.

I think you're contradicting yourself.

You use the buzzword Entitlement to describe anyone not content with what they're funding. You say that what you buy into is what you get. Be happy if they give you anything extra. But also:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Stretch goals are meant to encourage buy-in, not act as a secret reward for those that leap before they look.

So if I was encouraged to buy in by a stretch goal - it hasn't been hit yet, hence why it's a goal and not clearly labeled as content for whatever pledge level - then I'm putting money down not just for what is available but for what will be available. At that point the stretch goal can't be considered something extra.

 scipio.au wrote:

People don't care about your McDonalds example, and I'll explain why.

 scipio.au wrote:

It's a side effect of these larger Kickstarters no longer being about the "goal", but about chasing stretch goals. Which in turns means the initial goal becomes a BS goal. The exception now being much smaller projects like Bruno's goblins or the Stuart's zombies or the Stonehaven dwarves. Campaigns like Tre's RBM and Mantic's KoW I believe started as truly about the goal, but since both went much much further and became "stretch-focused", subsequent campaigns from both will be "stretch-chaser" campaigns, as we're already seeing with DreadBall.

Many people aren't pledging for the initial items. In some cases, the initial "sweet spot" is actually poor value initially. (RK, DreadBall). They're pledging based on a perception that there will be a metric shirtload of stuff added to that level. - based on Zombicide, Sedition Wars, Mantic, Reaper. Especially with the "Early Bird"pledges, people go in early expecting a lot more. If their expectations aren't met, they leave.

To use an equally-convoluted KFC example. - They're not going in and expecting to only get a Twister Combo meal. They're expecting it to turn out to be a 20-piece bucket with 4 sides. When it turns into a 12-piece box with 2 sides and the chance to buy more chicken and sides separately, or a few slices of Pizza Hut (also owned by the same parent company), they get pissed off that they're not getting the amount of chicken they expected, so they leave.

Basically, at $100 for saviour, people aren't pledging for what it says on the tin. They're pledging for what it says on the tin, plus a few extra tins that they will find to their liking. You can blame the consumers, but blame the (minis) companies just as much for turning Kickstarter into "stretch-goal-a-go-go" instead of "help us hit this real, actual, goal".

I agree with this. I don't know if it makes me a greedy bastard, an opportunist, or any other number negative personality archtypes, but I agree. Take the Savior buy in and the Noh Empire (double Noh) for example. It's not value for me to spend a hundred bucks on 10 minis (two which are Cypher sized) and a rulebook. 12 minis, I forgot the 2 special pics. I don't even count the tokens, the cards, the chits, the bobs and whatnots.....they're all part of the rules system/book to me. But as we hit these stretch goals and get up to ten extra minis...that's where the value is to me

CMON and SPM wanted 20K. That's it. That's what they said they needed to make this entire game, but that's BS, because apparently it costs that much to to make three or four minis from start to finish. I got no problem with that, I guess that's just the way to do a KS. I'm pretty novice at KS, so the multitudes of reasons for doing this probably escape me. But like Scipio said it's not the week 1 buy in that everyone's after.

This is the way my mind works - I figure with all this money they make they've got enough to print enough books and rules accessories for twice the number of backers they've got on tap. I figure for the money they take in, they've got the brand new sculpts paid for and the metal molds for all the minis. Those metal molds will last effectively forever. And for what I paid in I'm probably getting what...about two pounds of plastic. Just how much does raw plastic cost when you buy it in bulk? 2-3 dollars a pound? Much much less? I checked one report that said in Oct of 2010 that a metric ton of a certain type of plastic went for $1400 a metric ton. Because I'm looking at old data, and probably the wrong data (as there are different type of plastic) I'll go with $3 a pound in raw mats. So after everything is built and printed, it costs them $6 to make my stuff. There are 2000 backers right now, so they spend about $12,000 of the $450k on mats to make the minis.

Everything else is gravy, some of it is spent gravy I realize, but it's gravy for them. CMON and SPM walk off with a fully produced range of minis, metal molds that they get to use forever, extra minis and rules for the next couple of waves of sale, etc etc etc. After this KS is done SPM only needs to pay the cost of raw plastic to fill their sales orders to the world. The way I see it is that I help them make their game with my $200 (what I actually spent) and in return they toss me the rules, some cards, some chips, and about 2 pounds of finished plastic. Would I like 3 pounds of finished plastic, yes, and that's the added value everyone's looking for. Not the initial, week one, buy in.

You’re only going halfway there.

If that goal that encouraged you to buy in isn’t met, then you could withdraw your pledge. That makes perfect sense to me; you didn't get what you were hoping to get, so you keep the money. What doesn’t make sense is making a pledge because you like what’s already there, and then getting pissy/withdrawing funding when later goals don’t, for whatever reason, match your level of expectation (or entitlement).

When I first saw this Kickstarter it looked ok. To me – personally – the starter packs were a bit thin and there wasn’t much to grab me other than a few of the models (which I was happy to wait for). Doubling basic troops and adding in some nifty Ltd. Ed. characters encouraged me to buy in.

Now say that they had never reached the first SDE stretch goal. My interest would have waned and I might have reduced/pulled out. But say for sake of argument that I had pledged Day 1 because I wanted two starter-sets. Then they go and add SDE characters... so I throw a hissy fit and withdraw my pledge? Or I pledge Day 1 because I want two starter-sets... and then get annoyed when a stretch goal doesn’t add what I want, even though I was happy with the original levels when the KS first started?

See I don’t mind if people don’t like the stretch goals – most of the Ltd. Ed characters don’t do it for me, and I only like half the factions, so when one of the ones I don’t like gets something new it doesn’t help me – but to get annoyed at stretch goals when you’ve already pledged just reeks of entitlement. And if it’s not entitlement then I don’t understand it because there’s no logic behind it.

To veer away from fast food I’ll jump on the tired cliché of car dealerships. I want a Ford Mustang. I go in and buy a Ford Mustang. Later on they say that anyone who buys a Ford Mustang also gets a Kia Rio. I don’t want a Kia Rio... so I don’t buy the Mustang? See how that makes no logical sense.

You’ve got what you paid for. Anything more is a bonus. Cancelling your order because later items (especially later optional items) doesn’t make any sense.

And if you're putting money down in the hope of what might be available down the line, then that's your problem. Getting angry and storming off (your pledge money in tow) when it doesn't go the way you want isn't reasonable. It's petulant.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
You’re only going halfway there.

If that goal that encouraged you to buy in isn’t met, then you could withdraw your pledge. That makes perfect sense to me; you didn't get what you were hoping to get, so you keep the money. What doesn’t make sense is making a pledge because you like what’s already there, and then getting pissy/withdrawing funding when later goals don’t, for whatever reason, match your level of expectation (or entitlement).

When I first saw this Kickstarter it looked ok. To me – personally – the starter packs were a bit thin and there wasn’t much to grab me other than a few of the models (which I was happy to wait for). Doubling basic troops and adding in some nifty Ltd. Ed. characters encouraged me to buy in.

Now say that they had never reached the first SDE stretch goal. My interest would have waned and I might have reduced/pulled out. But say for sake of argument that I had pledged Day 1 because I wanted two starter-sets. Then they go and add SDE characters... so I throw a hissy fit and withdraw my pledge? Or I pledge Day 1 because I want two starter-sets... and then get annoyed when a stretch goal doesn’t add what I want, even though I was happy with the original levels when the KS first started?

See I don’t mind if people don’t like the stretch goals – most of the Ltd. Ed characters don’t do it for me, and I only like half the factions, so when one of the ones I don’t like gets something new it doesn’t help me – but to get annoyed at stretch goals when you’ve already pledged just reeks of entitlement. And if it’s not entitlement then I don’t understand it because there’s no logic behind it.

To veer away from fast food I’ll jump on the tired cliché of car dealerships. I want a Ford Mustang. I go in and buy a Ford Mustang. Later on they say that anyone who buys a Ford Mustang also gets a Kia Rio. I don’t want a Kia Rio... so I don’t buy the Mustang? See how that makes no logical sense.

You’ve got what you paid for. Anything more is a bonus. Cancelling your order because later items (especially later optional items) doesn’t make any sense.

And if you're putting money down in the hope of what might be available down the line, then that's your problem. Getting angry and storming off (your pledge money in tow) when it doesn't go the way you want isn't reasonable. It's petulant.

First: People are always entitled to withdraw their money if they're not satisfied with the Kickstarter for any reason. It's your coin, do as you will with it.

I will agree that if you were content with what as offered at the time of pledging X amount of money to the Relic Knight kickstarter, then it wouldn't make sense to cancel that pledge if they added more items to your reward level. That doesn't mean you can't have an opinion about stretch goals. Here's my view of them from an earlier post above. I'll paste it here in case you missed it.

The kickstarter began to move Relic Knights forward and take it from a few models to a full fledged game.

To achieve this the money will be used to "greatly accelerate the pace of sculpting, and now all six factions will be in high grade plastic!"

So mission accomplished. We did it guys! Relic Knights is going to be a viable miniatures game as of hitting the $20,000 mark. SPM have done what they set out to do. Everything after that was icing on the cake.

Stretch goals are additional funding for goals set after the initial or main goal. Thus the funding up until this point has been not just for the Relic Knights tabletop game, but also for:

Expediting manufacturing of all six RK factions

Casino quality cards

Base inserts

Plastic tokens

Special Edition miniatures

Faction Starter Boosts

Optional Extras

Optional Extras Boosts!

More base inserts

Collectively, we have paid for all those goals to be reached. I don't believe it's unfair, then, that someone disagree with the handling of the reward or fulfillment of those goals.

Ultimately, everyone's going to decide for themselves if they're in or out.

I don't have any money invested at the moment precisely because I'm now waiting to see what the whole package looks like. Which unfortunately we won't have a clear picture of until Saturday.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
It is fairly simple - RK fans are disappointed by Non-RK stretch Goals.

Of which there are a whole two. *gasp*
And neither of which require any more money, because they've already pledged. *double gasp*
Meaning that the goals impact them in zero ways. *triple super gasp*

The fact that you continue to not get why people are disappointed by non-RK stretch goals in a RK Kickstarter is both puzzling and hilarious, in a distinctly non-gasp worthy fashion.

WHOO!!!!
I got an early bird double saviour!!!!

HAPPY DANCE!!!!!!


Now back to not talking about McDonalds analogies

 Alpharius wrote:
The fact that you continue to not get why people are disappointed by non-RK stretch goals in a RK Kickstarter is both puzzling and hilarious, in a distinctly non-gasp worthy fashion.

Then maybe you can explain it better, Ken.

I'll simply restate what I've been saying from the start, and you point out the error and explain the difference:

If you pledged because you liked what was already there, and then later decided to withdraw funds because you didn't like the additions, then your actions don't make sense because what you originally wanted is still there and hasn't changed.

Is it really this hard to understand?

If you pledged for a RK Kickstarter you might want to see stretch goals for RK stuff and not for things you don't want?

We all get that all the other stuff is still there, and we don't have to buy things we don't want. But the non-RK stretch goals feel like a diversion and like they are taking the place of stretch goals for things related directly to RK.

I think you're just trying to be difficult here...or maybe your love of SDE has tinted your view?

How about its not really about the stretch goals, but rather the company itself.

You invested in a company that is going to make products you want (maybe). Yes, they will continue to make the product you initially wanted, but in the process of asking for your INVESTMENT (not a purchase), they took some strange turns.

They stopped talking to you.
They agree they ended up with extra money, and only then decided to create a product that should already have been made (cards, bases and tokens?).
They agree they have extra money so invest in something completely different.
They refuse to show you early versions of their product--the one you are trying to fund.
They refuse to answer questions.

They, in general, look incompetent.

Yeah, I think its reasonable to come to that assumption and potentially back out. If this was a stock buy-in, I don;t think I'd trust this company to meet its goal and I'd take my money out.

Honestly think it's just different and valid points of view

1) You pledged for something at the time, if they added NO ADDITIONS AT ALL then you should still be ok as your pledge conditions were already met. This means that if not related, heck even total crap being added as stretch goals shouldn't change your original commitment on a fundamental level (IE nothing to do with customer service or comms or trust)

2) You pledged early under the assumption that at the end of the process you would have something worth pledging for... that would mean that disappointment or divergence of stretch goals (or even not meeting them) would cause you to drop out. Looking at dreamforge, if you wanted the Mortis in 15mm and pledged for it... but it wasn't going to make it, it would make sense to pull out before the end.

Just 2 different views of pledging,
neither are wrong. But they are VERY different...
I tend to do #1 which is why I have upped my pledge as these goals have added more to the base level


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@Drazz:

Yes, I think it's more about comms, trust, annoyance and incompetence rather than the actual stretch goals.

This is a GREAT reason to drop out from a pledge.

If putting SDE characters in as a stretch means that they have lost your trust... that's fine.

I'm sorry Alpha, but that doesn’t fly. I didn’t like all the Zombicide stretch goals. I didn’t like all the Sedition Wars stretch goals. Some of the Reaper stuff made me yawn in the hope that we’d get something better ‘next time’. None of them made me want to withdraw my pledge because what I had wanted originally was still part of the deal. Even just using this KS – what if I didn’t want more Jetbike riding girls for the Speed Circuit group? Well... they’re free, and I’m still getting everything that I wanted, so is it such a big deal? And if the next goal was for even more Jetbike girls – even Jetbike girls I’d have to pay extra for if I wanted them – then I’d be disappointed, because, again, it’s not something I want or need... but I’m still getting what I want, so what’s the problem?

@ drazz

Ahah! Finally someone who can explain things in a manner that seems to cover all the bases.

drazz wrote:How about its not really about the stretch goals, but rather the company itself.

Alright. Fair enough. Let’s see where you take this.

drazz wrote:You invested in a company that is going to make products you want (maybe).

Ok first of all stop. Not ‘maybe’. You pledged because they were making something you wanted. If they weren’t making something you wanted you would not have pledged.

drazz wrote:Yes, they will continue to make the product you initially wanted, but in the process of asking for your INVESTMENT (not a purchase), they took some strange turns.

I don’t see it as an investment. I’m not alone here. I see it as a purchase, or at worst a pre-order. To me this is no different than Best Buy and Game Spot each offering the same game but with slightly different pre-order bonuses. You want in early, you get something special. If you don’t, you don’t, and you might be able to pick it up later. Maybe. The investment part would only come into it if they couldn’t make it. You put money in, they didn’t make their original goal, so they can’t make it... and you don’t lose any money.

Now if you see it as an investment, then that’s fine. More power to you. But if your investment was for Product X and they made Product X but then also added product Y, I don’t see how you could really be all that disappointed. I mean, after all, you wanted Product X and you’re still getting product X, so why the fuss?

However, your last part about ‘strange turns’ warrants a closer look.

drazz wrote:They stopped talking to you.

Admittedly I haven’t been focusing on the comments at the KS page, but even I remember that Zombicide, Sedition Wars and Reaper were sending me E-mails every 20 seconds. This one... not so much. I haven’t got a’one. So I can’t disagree with you here, and I think the communication aspect has not been handled well at all. Not revealing stretch goals until the goal is met is a serious no-no, and I’m sure others here feel the same.

drazz wrote:They agree they ended up with extra money, and only then decided to create a product that should already have been made (cards, bases and tokens?).

Should they have? Do you know they hadn’t already been planned? What if the extra money allowed them to take something they already had and make them better (eg. Mike wanting plastic tokens in Sedition Wars, but only being able to do it once they had enough money to fund the process of making them). Is that such a problem?

drazz wrote:They agree they have extra money so invest in something completely different.

Calling SDE minis something ‘completely different’ is a bit of a stretch. It’s not like they suddenly added jetski’s to the KS and said that all future money would go to funding Soda-Pop-branded jetskis.

drazz wrote:They refuse to show you early versions of their product--the one you are trying to fund.

This is a real problem – assuming its real. Have they refused, as in said “No we’re not showing you”, or is that a conclusion you're drawing just because they haven’t shown you anything yet? Now, the perception can often be worse than the truth, but let’s be sure that Soda-Pop have outright refused to show upcoming models (ie. actively stated that they will not be showing models no matter how many requests they get) before we start accusing them of that.

If they did so in a comment on the KS or one of the update E-mails that I haven’t seen, then ok, that’s a problem. But if they haven’t refused, and you just think they have because they haven’t shown anything yet (which isn’t the same as refusing to show something), then don’t accuse them of that.

drazz wrote:They refuse to answer questions.

This is similar to above. Are they just not answering questions, or have they made a statement that they will not be answering questions. These are two different things. Don’t get me wrong – both are bad – but one is worse than the other and I’d rather be sure that it’s not the former before accusing them of the latter. Make sense?

drazz wrote:They, in general, look incompetent.

And detached. Or unengaged. I don’t really disagree with you here.

drazz wrote:Yeah, I think its reasonable to come to that assumption and potentially back out. If this was a stock buy-in, I don;t think I'd trust this company to meet its goal and I'd take my money out.

But... they met their goal? Company X needs Y to make Z. I want Z. I give Company X my Y. They make Z. Investment successful! They also go and make A B and C... who cares? I wanted Z, and they made Z. I still get what I want!!!

I think a huge part of it is the original goal was total BS. They never meant to get $20k. Never. They wanted $100k. So, fine, ask for it. Don't pretend like $20k was going to get the game funded; you wanted $100k in order to include the 'extras' so just make that the original goal.

As for the preview models, they are there. Go watch the Gencon video. Most of the models they want to produce are in the video. But not individually photo'ed, not in good light, nothing where the investors see details.

As far as I can tell, no they are not refusing to show models or refusing to answer questions. But there are 5 days left. And no models and no answers after weeks of asking.

And yes, SDE is completely different. If I pay into this KS, for RK, I don't want the funds going to SDE. If Company X wants me to fund Y, I don't want my money going to Z.

If you read all these comments, it's like you are forced to pledge...

If you don't like the KS then don't pledge, it's easy as burgers.

Wow this thread exploded over the PAX weekend.

I've read all your posts and I'll answer what I can. If I haven't or don't answer your question I'm not ignoring you -- there's just lots of stuff. Feel free to bring it up again and I'll be back.

Communication:
I personally have been active on the Kickstarter comments section answering questions as has CMON. In addition, I have posted in this thread (though DaveC keeps beating me on status updates, thanks!) as well as posting on our personal forums. CMON has sent out 36 update e-mails and we have updated our FAQ with many of the most common questions. Plus, not every comment necessarily needs a response. Many comments are backers enjoying a conversation back and forth, wish-listing, or just rooting for the next stretch goal.

If the primary concern with communication is wanting every stretch goal laid out ad infinitum. I will not attempt to dissuade you about the validity of that. What I can do it tell you why we are using the "batch" method we are. While we have our desired stretch goals laid out, it is also not set in stone. Relic Knights is still in development. Some stuff is still waiting on art, some stuff on sculpts, other stuff on manufacturing price quotes, plus we are watching and reading backer feedback. This makes it so that a few things can be moved around in line. A few of you don't like that we have been using silhouettes of the stretch goals, even though we also have provided a text description. Fair enough. We like having a little visual surprise when the stretch is unlocked, even though the stretch is not a secret. We have a lot of people who come back and watch the kickstarter because they are excited for the reveal.

On the chibi models.
I have stated our thought process on these before, but I suppose it is worth repeating.

Here's some insight on our thought process for the chibi Relic Knights. Soda Pop has always been about loving and embracing the anime, video game, pop culture aesthetic. Which covers a lot of styles. Obviously Relic Knights embraces the more sexy streamlined look while SDE embraces the 8bit chibi style. However, these two forms are rarely exclusive and chibi versions of popular anime characters are very common and popular. (Obviously we love them.) Three years ago, before Super Dungeon Explore even existed, the packaging for our very first Relic Knight, Malya featured chibi art versions of her and Mr. Tomn. A trend which we continued with the packaging for most our Relic Knights and which you can even see on our website. Ever since that first chibi picture of Malya was released we've had constant requests for chibi models of these characters as reflected by the art. Now, here we are several years down the road doing Kickstarter, a format that allows us to offer all sorts of wonderful and interesting bonuses. For us it was a simple decision to make these models that are so often requested a reality. The fact that we can include Hero cards for them is just a fun, extra, perk for those who play SDE.

It is interesting to me that these have been met with such vitriol by a few people. I have trouble seeing how they are different from any other limited edition model that does not have rules or game value such as the various White Dwarfs, the ale drinking PP models, etc. Sure you can use those as "counts as" for something they are not but at the end of the day nothing prevents you from doing the same thing with the chibi models -- they could be "counts as" cyphers or even chibi versions of themselves since models have have a model size and base size stat in the game so the actual physical model size is not strictly a concern.

Not showing product.
We have many pictures of completed sculpts up, including our intro video, and a video of our Gencon display case. Many of our sculpts are not yet complete, therefore we have shown concept art. As soon as a sculpt is ready for photo we will post pictures of it. We have also posted a beta rules set + cards. It is obviously not complete but gives a very good idea of what the game you are buying is going to be.

Hope that answers some of your questions. Obviously, not everyone will agree with everything, that's just the nature of the beast -- but as I said above I'm happy to answer your questions and will also just continue to post here as we continue.

Thanks!
SPM_Deke

Thanks Terrain, understand Gencon kinda threw a spanner in the works (good and bad thing for comms).

As for the pics, for the stuff that is done... can you show pics... I was sold when I saw the helmeted heads for the Helle's Belles... but they are not on the KS page... you know, things like that


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Actually, I think the video is great... but actual photo's of that case would be SO GOOD!! Especially for stuff that isn't changing. If it is still being done, totally understand... Just want this to get as big as possible for selfish reasons ;-)

drazz wrote:
I think a huge part of it is the original goal was total BS. They never meant to get $20k. Never. They wanted $100k. So, fine, ask for it. Don't pretend like $20k was going to get the game funded; you wanted $100k in order to include the 'extras' so just make that the original goal.

$20k is what we needed/wanted to get out a hard back book and at least two plastic starters. Would we have been a bit disappointed in not reaching $100k to have plastic starters for everything? Absolutely. Yet it still would have been great to be able to provide two factions and a nice book that we could direct people to as an easy entry point to the game. Much like many other companies that have a single starter set with 2 factions and rules.

drazz wrote:As for the preview models, they are there. Go watch the Gencon video. Most of the models they want to produce are in the video. But not individually photo'ed, not in good light, nothing where the investors see details.

I recommend you watch our main video which has the pictures you are asking for. In addition we have model pictures distributed throughout the main page under each faction. Plus, many of the current range of models will be undergoing adjustment for plastic. Like making barrels, hafts, and fins, sturdier.

Everything we have is here. But, again some of these will be getting altered.

Thanks
SPM_Deke

 terrainguy wrote:

...

I recommend you watch our main video which has the pictures you are asking for. In addition we have model pictures distributed throughout the main page under each faction. Plus, many of the current range of models will be undergoing adjustment for plastic. Like making barrels, hafts, and fins, sturdier.

Everything we have is here. But, again some of these will be getting altered.

Thanks
SPM_Deke

Cool, thanks for the update.
Already in for 4 starter sets... so I'm happy with what you guys are doing. putting a link for this on the ACTUAL KS page would be good.

 Makaleth wrote:
As for the pics, for the stuff that is done... can you show pics... I was sold when I saw the helmeted heads for the Helle's Belles... but they are not on the KS page... you know, things like that

See my above post for a link to pics of what we have. Some of the stuff like alt heads are not done, or if they are done we're still working on seeing what can fit on the molds. We will cram the molds as full as we can, but the last thing we want to do is promise an option that we later find out we can't make happen.

Cool, thanks terrain

 terrainguy wrote:
A few of you don't like that we have been using silhouettes of the stretch goals, even though we also have provided a text description. Fair enough. We like having a little visual surprise when the stretch is unlocked, even though the stretch is not a secret. We have a lot of people who come back and watch the kickstarter because they are excited for the reveal.

See this is what doesn’t make sense. Bones had a similar system with its graveyard, and what essentially became a game of ‘digging up the bones’. And they had stretch goals laid out far above their initial goal. Everyone seemed to love that... and it’s very similar to this system that everyone seems to hate. I don’t understand why people dislike this system.

I like the way you’ve done it. I like the surprises (just like I liked the surprises as each grave was dug up with the Bones Kickstarter). When the last SDE character went up I was excited to see what it would look like once the goal was hit. It didn’t annoy me at all that it was a silhouette.

 terrainguy wrote:
The fact that we can include Hero cards for them is just a fun, extra, perk for those who play SDE.

And for the occasional person, like me, the tipping point that made me pledge (the Penny Arcade characters were a huge draw as well... though I wish you’d do a tiny Div esper! ). Now I’m in over 300 (including shipping), with additional Factions, boosts and Ltd. Ed characters added on. No regrets.

Seriously though – see if the PA guys will let you do a ‘Broken Sword Lady Ann Archy’ with Drunk Div as an esper!

And on that note... $4800 to go before the next goal set

H.B.M.C. wrote:Seriously though – see if the PA guys will let you do a ‘Broken Sword Lady Ann Archy’ with Drunk Div as an esper!

It was actually a big deal that they let us do Tycho as well as Gabe. Normally they only let Gabe get put into projects like this. I would love to do a Lady Ann Archy or some Noh Twisp and Catsby.

Thank you, Deke, for the update. Hope you guys had a good/lucrative time at PAX.

I do have a couple of questions I've been unable to find the answers for. (Maybe I've looked in the wrong places.)

Do you guys have an idea what the retail's gonna be on the figures?

Are the Shattered Sword Paladin minions being altered/reworked?

Pose-ability aside, is there going to be more variation to minions than what the concept art entails?

Are all the Black Diamond Corp minions male? Shattered Sword Paladin and Star Nebula Corsair minions 3:2 male:female like the concept art suggests?

Dentry wrote:
Thank you, Deke, for the update. Hope you guys had a good/lucrative time at PAX.

I do have a couple of questions I've been unable to find the answers for. (Maybe I've looked in the wrong places.)

Do you guys have an idea what the retail's gonna be on the figures?

Are the Shattered Sword Paladin minions being altered/reworked?

Pose-ability aside, is there going to be more variation to minions than what the concept art entails?

Are all the Black Diamond Corp minions male? Shattered Sword Paladin and Star Nebula Corsair minions 3:2 male:female like the concept art suggests?

We do not have a final cost for retail. We are targeting $60 for the the starters, but that is in no way final.

The Shattered Sword minions are complete. We are looking at potentially doing more poses but they will not differ substantially from what is shown.

Definitely more variety than just the concept art. The art shown is just single art for the unit card. That said they are units of like equipped models so don't expect them to have tons of weapon options, etc. It will mainly be pose and/or head variations.

At the moment I believe all the Black Diamond minions are male. Though they are still being worked on so that may change. Paladins and Corsairs do currently have a mix of male and female.

For what it's worth, I was the one who gave up the early bird spot. I was really happy with what I would be getting (and up to a few days ago had been debating upgrading). Then bills showed up to remind me about Zombicide, Ogre, and Sedition Wars. Also Dark Vengeance was making eyes at me. Nothing to do with being unhappy with the stretch goals or anything like that. My Visa burst into flames and I took that as a sign