H.B.M.C. wrote: The back is bigger too. Strange how it only still fits 6 (wait, does it fit 6?).
I think it fits 12
Are open topped skimmer-transport tanks still...recommended? I've not played 40k since 5th so I am a bit out of the loop.
Yup. I mean they are relatively fragile, but they are Assault vehicles, which are pretty rare in this edition, but ideal for Harlequins.
I'm hoping they have some sort of assault grenade launcher that boosts the Troupes invulnerable save when they disembark/charge...that might be a faint hope though.
Oh so I was right about the duel tank thing (least looks like I am) and that death jester is rocking out!
Shadowseer looks largely the same, nothing bad, love the gun.
Seems this range is a good one!
And thus I need to trade all the junk I don't use for Harlequins (old or new I don't care) lol
H.B.M.C. wrote: The back is bigger too. Strange how it only still fits 6 (wait, does it fit 6?).
I think it fits 12
Are open topped skimmer-transport tanks still...recommended? I've not played 40k since 5th so I am a bit out of the loop.
Yup. I mean they are relatively fragile, but they are Assault vehicles, which are pretty rare in this edition, but ideal for Harlequins.
I'm hoping they have some sort of assault grenade launcher that boosts the Troupes invulnerable save when they disembark/charge...that might be a faint hope though.
New plastic solos look great!
We'll see on how many guys the thing can transport, I donno if its a good idea to have such small squads in these delicate tanks as your only troop choices...
Definitely to support, though it would suck, I would think, running them up the board.
Normally when something goes to plastic you hope it improves. The Deathjester and Shadowseer are such good models though it appears that they just wanted to recreate them in plastic.
That new Death Jester looks sweet. Basically everything cool about the last one in a cool new pose. And I've always liked the Shadowseer, glad he's basically identical.
H.B.M.C. wrote: The back is bigger too. Strange how it only still fits 6 (wait, does it fit 6?).
I think it fits 12
Are open topped skimmer-transport tanks still...recommended? I've not played 40k since 5th so I am a bit out of the loop.
Yup. I mean they are relatively fragile, but they are Assault vehicles, which are pretty rare in this edition, but ideal for Harlequins.
I'm hoping they have some sort of assault grenade launcher that boosts the Troupes invulnerable save when they disembark/charge...that might be a faint hope though.
New plastic solos look great!
We'll see on how many guys the thing can transport, I donno if its a good idea to have such small squads in these delicate tanks as your only troop choices...
Definitely to support, though it would suck, I would think, running them up the board.
Yeah, if you're planning to go ALL HARLEQUIN! then it's going to be an issue either way. Personally I'd rather have multiple small squads anyway to hopefully eat Overwatch with one.
They are 'delicate' but they are crazy fast and can jink (4+) save, and I'm sure they'll have the same hologram launcher thing as the Skyweaver. I'd be more concerned about points cost. Based on Skyweavers these are probably going to be quite pricey to field.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Have Death Jesters typically been 1 per army?
Yeah, the Starweaver is definitely a good bit wider than the Venom, and just a hair longer. Looks really good! I'm a bit sad about the apparent transport capacity (ie, not being a full Troupe squad), but I'm heavily suspecting that the Shadowseer will have some option to be able to Deep Strike or Webway Portal in the big squads.
Back in the day Death Jesters operated as a 1-3 per elite slot (like the old obliterators and zoanthropes) and went around on their own, I assume they'll still do the same.
And yes, I will be going pure Harlequins, I didn't wait 10-12 years to just cheap out...
I'm gonna bet it's 6. I mean, it's basically a Venom. And people saying 12, I sincerely doubt it when it's like half the size of a raider which carries 10.
I'm gonna bet it's 6. I mean, it's basically a Venom. And people saying 12, I sincerely doubt it when it's like half the size of a raider which carries 10.
Thinking about it, I'm not sure I'd want to use 10 anyway. This is going to be a pretty elite/small army, I imagine that the Starweaver is going to be more points than a Venom, and full of guys that are significantly more expensive than Kabalites or Wyches. I'd rather have more Starweavers full of fewer guys.
I'm gonna bet it's 6. I mean, it's basically a Venom. And people saying 12, I sincerely doubt it when it's like half the size of a raider which carries 10.
Thinking about it, I'm not sure I'd want to use 10 anyway. This is going to be a pretty elite/small army, I imagine that the Starweaver is going to be more points than a Venom, and full of guys that are significantly more expensive than Kabalites or Wyches. I'd rather have more Starweavers full of fewer guys.
Pretty much this. Would be happy with carrying capacity of 6, for once matching with the box size. Thinking this thing holds more than 6 is wishful thinking though. Venoms only hold 5, and the increase in size from Starweaver -> Venom is really just enough to not make you roll you're eyes at a capacity of 6. Seriously, do any of us believe 5 warriors can really hold on to a Venom swooping around at high speeds w/out one of them flying off?
These filthy bastards from GW.. You monsters, I was planning to buy a WiiU, and you are just releasing a coolest looking and perfectly appealing full Army with proper codex and lots of rich and great packs and clams - even more, of Harlies which I've always found neat, even old FC models? Why? Why you hurt me and my wallet this way? :(
Anyway, already ordered two Troupes and one Solitaire, and later I'll take some Jetbikes and two Starweavers perhaps. And Jester(s). Oh Gods, it looks so damn great.
Well, going by the tall base, I'm saying something closer to $32.
And as Az pointed out, the Starweaver is definitely bigger than the Venom, you are correct good sir. No the question will be if is it more expensive than a raider.
I don't see why they have to be the same price? I seriously doubt they'll be the same, do you see the size of the scenic base!?
Now, looking at the Necron commander, I do see he is $28, so I think Jehan is probably right.
EDIT: Also, the new Harlequin Solitaire is $3 over the release of the DE Archon from just a few months ago. I think expecting the Deathjester at $28 is not outside of the scope. I realize I was being exaggerative, but then I see that the old Deathjester, in all its Finecrap glory, was $20. So I'm just curious about why it went up in price by (at least) 30%.
But I suppose we can't make fun of GW's fan-driven price strategy.
The star weaver is definitely more than a raider price wise - at least here in Australia... from what I hear, they will be more expensive than a troupe box...
Accolade wrote: I don't see why they have to be the same price? I seriously doubt they'll be the same, do you see the size of the scenic base!?
Have you seen the size of the scenic base on the Solitaire?
Copying stuff down since we're dancing around at the moment...
EDIT: Also, the new Harlequin Solitaire is $3 over the release of the DE Archon from just a few months ago. I think expecting the Deathjester at $28 is not outside of the scope. I realize I was being exaggerative, but then I see that the old Deathjester, in all its Finecrap glory, was $20. So I'm just curious about why it went up in price by (at least) 30%.
But I suppose we can't make fun of GW's fan-driven price strategy.
The Deathjester's base is bigger and his gun is bigger. As far as GW's logic is concerned, he will cost more than the Solitaire.
This is the age of plastic now, and just like the age of Finecast that followed metal, prices only went up. I mean, look at this guys:
Dude is still $15 from back when he was originally released (I believe). That's the old metal sculpt that got converted to Finecast, so I'm not entirely sure if the price went up, but I KNOW it didn't go down...
Hero characters used to be that cheap not all that long ago. The new Necron overlord is an extra $6 compared to all of the other Finecast characters, even ones that are way bigger. The DE Archon is the same way. And the Harlies are just another step on that path.
Oh dang, then he didn't undergo the Finecast transition, I guess that's why his price never went up. The crazy thing is GW marketed Finecast as a cost-saver for sculpts, yet magically all of the prices went up. Plastics I would hazard a guess aren't more expensive, but somehow we're getting these 30% markups on characters (even if it is more expensive the quality is lesser than good resin, so the reason for a price mark-up is still questionable).
And the new Overlord can't be bigger than Illuminor Szeras, or Imotekh the Stormlord, or the Necron destroyer. He's not any more detailed, or any bigger, he's just more expensive.
Really looking forward to seeing transport rules. Great news on dex pre order though I really wondered if this would be stand alone. Just does not seem like there will be to many diverse builds without allies.
I've heard we might get cwe and de units, mainly vehicles, but we will just have to wait and see.
Accolade wrote: Oh dang, then he didn't undergo the Finecast transition, I guess that's why his price never went up. The crazy thing is GW marketed Finecast as a cost-saver for sculpts, yet magically all of the prices went up. Plastics I would hazard a guess aren't more expensive, but somehow we're getting these 30% markups on characters (even if it is more expensive the quality is lesser than good resin, so the reason for a price mark-up is still questionable).
Plastics necessitate an entirely different casting process, as has been mentioned time and time and time again.
And the new Overlord can't be bigger than Illuminor Szeras, or Imotekh the Stormlord, or the Necron destroyer. He's not any more detailed, or any bigger, he's just more expensive.
So again: You haven't seen him in person?
He's not as big as a Necron Destroyer certainly, but he's about on par with Imotekh or Szeras.
Well generally the vehicles are the least of a rip off... so I have no qualms buying those, it's the rest they get me, but there's 2 editions back of everything I can pick from (so far most of my army is finecast, not that I paid finecast prices) and the rest will be finecast or metal... I might get a box of plastics, so I have some from every edition...
That'd be nice.
Accolade wrote: Oh dang, then he didn't undergo the Finecast transition, I guess that's why his price never went up. The crazy thing is GW marketed Finecast as a cost-saver for sculpts, yet magically all of the prices went up. Plastics I would hazard a guess aren't more expensive, but somehow we're getting these 30% markups on characters (even if it is more expensive the quality is lesser than good resin, so the reason for a price mark-up is still questionable).
Plastics necessitate an entirely different casting process, as has been mentioned time and time and time again.
Can you not have a conversation with another person without constantly attacking them? Seriously dude, what's wrong with you, is Tom Kirby your great uncle and you feel the need to be insulting to people who dare accuse GW of missteps?
GW's plastics do not cost what they did in 2005, if they did they wouldn't be having these short runs and then ditching the models from sales. GW prices things however the they want- go look at their crapy eBook variety versions and tell me why those electrons cost sooo much to purchase (the Necron eBook cost as much as the old softback books!)
There is absolutely no reason why miniatures that cost what they did in metal cost close to twice that in plastic. And if they really do cost that much more, then why isn't GW making them in metal? They sure don't have interest in conversions anymore so it can't be because of that.
Accolade wrote: Oh dang, then he didn't undergo the Finecast transition, I guess that's why his price never went up. The crazy thing is GW marketed Finecast as a cost-saver for sculpts, yet magically all of the prices went up.
GW never marketed 'Fine'cast as a cost-saver. They marketed it as a higer-quality material. It was everyone else that said it was a cost-saver.
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Accolade wrote: Can you not have a conversation with another person without constantly attacking them?
Accolade wrote: Can you not have a conversation with another person without constantly attacking them?
There was no attack in the post you just quoted.
I still think it's a case of being talked down to over the last couple of posts, which I don't understand the necessity of in the context of talking about plastic miniatures.
Accolade wrote: Oh dang, then he didn't undergo the Finecast transition, I guess that's why his price never went up. The crazy thing is GW marketed Finecast as a cost-saver for sculpts, yet magically all of the prices went up.
GW never marketed 'Fine'cast as a cost-saver. They marketed it as a higer-quality material. It was everyone else that said it was a cost-saver.
You are correct and I appear to be mistaken about the Finecast thing. Reading the 2011 report, Mark Wells seems to comment than the move to Finecast was in response to the volatile metal market. However, I think GW made a poor choice going away from metal- judging by how PP prices their metals, it doesn't seem like they would be as expensive as Finecast is now.
You are correct and I appear to be mistaken about the Finecast thing. Reading the 2011 report, Mark Wells seems to comment than the move to Finecast was in response to the volatile metal market. However, I think GW made a poor choice going away from metal- judging by how PP prices their metals, it doesn't seem like they would be as expensive as Finecast is now.
GW wanted to move away from metal to reduce their costs, thereby increasing their profits.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I wish we could find those initial fluff pieces about FineCost on the GW website. They were tremendously funny for all the wrong reasons.
I still have the WD here. It's amazing. A whole WD (Old monthly WDs) dedicated to just FC. Showing off countless models in the new material and saying page after page how it will be lightweight and retain 'perfect, crisp detail', and how amazing it is at holding paint!
Resin was not new.
French (and probably other) miniature manufacturers already used it for 10+ years by then.
And yes, resin was good for details, lightweight, nothing wrong with it except that small parts could break or bend.
But resin was (and is) also relatively cheap.
And that aspect is something GW never got quite right :-)
EDIT: Also, the new Harlequin Solitaire is $3 over the release of the DE Archon from just a few months ago. I think expecting the Deathjester at $28 is not outside of the scope. I realize I was being exaggerative, but then I see that the old Deathjester, in all its Finecrap glory, was $20. So I'm just curious about why it went up in price by (at least) 30%.
But I suppose we can't make fun of GW's fan-driven price strategy.
The Deathjester's base is bigger and his gun is bigger. As far as GW's logic is concerned, he will cost more than the Solitaire.
The Deathjester will be the same as the solitaire and as the Spiritseer. Plastic clampacks like that tend to be the same price when they're released together. The Sanguinary Guard in power armour and Terminator Librarian in Termie armour were both £18.
Does anyone which day of the week the previous few codexs were released? Just if they've all been released on the same day, then the Harlequin dex'd probably get released on that day too
Every new release for the last year or so has been a Friday night pre-order, with the WD released the day after, and the minis themselves released the following Satudary.
In other words, pre-orders will go up on the evening of the 13th (UK time), and the release will fall on the 20th. The characters will be up for PE on the 20th, released on the 28th.
With Natfka's sources and a user on Warseer being wrong last week I am still skeptical before we see the actual release list in WD. Darnok has confirmed we will get another week, Sad Panda who has also been 100% correct so far, pointed out the character models will come at the end of the release. In the past codex books and painting guides went preorder the second last or last week (in most cases). Two guys on Warseer from Sweden or Denmark said their shop has told them the books will get into preorder this week. Until there are photos we wont know. I expect the preorder list leak in the next 48 hours
Jangus wrote: Is that how GW rolls, or is that simply a speculation?
You're in Oz, so "Friday night" means "7am EAST".
I can deal with that. I just don't want to miss out on getting a limited edition codex if there is one. I doubt there will be, but I'll remain hopeful.
Vael Galizur posted a size comparison image made by her on TheDarkCity.net - it shows well that the Starweaver is larger than the DE Venom kit. The canopy windows were used to scale the photos
Flashman wrote: Will definitely pick up the Death Jester, but he may need another base. Not overly moved by the Shadow Seer
Shadow Seer is 95% the same model, just a little bit different pose - GW just took "Don't fix if not broken" approach - old model was fine, why overly change the new one? I am not moved by it as well, but I guess I'll buy it as well just to have psyker in Harlies army.
By the by, one thing bugs me out - what the hell is with Codex? If, in fact, there will be Fully Released HC Codex in 96 pages, why then release any rules in WD? Especially rules in bite-sized portions, 2-3 units at once. Plus why there are (apparently) all models first, and then Codex at the very end? It doesn't make much of a sense, especially if there is no defined option about wargear, for example. And no HQ model as well.
I just damn hope that there will be in fact new dex, and it will be fully full army, not some WD-only knockoff set of junkie rules or Inquisition of everything from everywhere.
Flashman wrote: Will definitely pick up the Death Jester, but he may need another base. Not overly moved by the Shadow Seer
Shadow Seer is 95% the same model, just a little bit different pose - GW just took "Don't fix if not broken" approach - old model was fine, why overly change the new one? I am not moved by it as well, but I guess I'll buy it as well just to have psyker in Harlies army.
By the by, one thing bugs me out - what the hell is with Codex? If, in fact, there will be Fully Released HC Codex in 96 pages, why then release any rules in WD? Especially rules in bite-sized portions, 2-3 units at once. Plus why there are (apparently) all models first, and then Codex at the very end? It doesn't make much of a sense, especially if there is no defined option about wargear, for example. And no HQ model as well.
I just damn hope that there will be in fact new dex, and it will be fully full army, not some WD-only knockoff set of junkie rules or Inquisition of everything from everywhere.
It's the same approach they took with the Tyranid release in Nidvember. Models and rules in the WD, then followed by Shields of Baal: Leviathan with new formations/warlord traits/Tyranid special CAD. Leviathan came out at the end of the Tyranid release, so I assume that is the model they are following here.
By the by, one thing bugs me out - what the hell is with Codex? If, in fact, there will be Fully Released HC Codex in 96 pages, why then release any rules in WD? Especially rules in bite-sized portions, 2-3 units at once. Plus why there are (apparently) all models first, and then Codex at the very end? It doesn't make much of a sense, especially if there is no defined option about wargear, for example. And no HQ model as well.
I just damn hope that there will be in fact new dex, and it will be fully full army, not some WD-only knockoff set of junkie rules or Inquisition of everything from everywhere.
They put the rules in WD for a few reasons, I'd guess. One is so that people feel they can buy a box and run it without shelling out for a codex (which is true and handy), so that sells the WD, and those interested in power/value of the unit can see how it plays/how many points ect, so be more tempted to buy the kit. It has the handy side-effect that buy buying 4 WDs (£2.40x4) rather than a £30 codex, and still have all the relevant parts. GW sells its (probably overpriced) magazine, I end up paying less but they still make a profit, everyone's a winner!
Not sure what you mean about the lack of Wargear definitions or a HQ? I imagine the Shadowseer will be a HQ choice, (with the DJ in Heavy, the Solitaire in Elites, the shooty skimmer probably in Fast and the Transpot skimmer as FA/DT), and the relevant Wargear rules apart from Relics have all been put in the WD.
It's the same approach they took with the Tyranid release in Nidvember. Models and rules in the WD, then followed by Shields of Baal: Leviathan with new formations/warlord traits/Tyranid special CAD. Leviathan came out at the end of the Tyranid release, so I assume that is the model they are following here.
I really hope so, but of course it seems like it, just too much of completely new stuff, rules, models, vechicles and clams just to make it as WD addition or only Supplement / Expansion.
But the next question is - will the Harlies get any HS stuff, like Prism, Ravager, perhaps something completely new, or they'll have "very special" CAD which will encourage dynamic and non-Heavy approach to fight We see new Elites, Troops, Ded, FA, some rumours about HQs, but complete silence about any Heavy Support - it seems as it will be either "borrowed" one, or there will be no HS and different CAD.
Well, the Starweaver kit does double as something called a Voidweaver, which is a "heavy weapons platform" that will probably be a Heavy Support slot... but I, too, find myself secretly and naively hoping for more units in the final Codex than what we've seen so far. I want Mimes!!
Doomaflatchi wrote: Well, the Starweaver kit does double as something called a Voidweaver, which is a "heavy weapons platform" that will probably be a Heavy Support slot... but I, too, find myself secretly and naively hoping for more units in the final Codex than what we've seen so far. I want Mimes!!
Is that confirmed yet? Last I saw that was just a rumor.
Not sure what you mean about the lack of Wargear definitions or a HQ? I imagine the Shadowseer will be a HQ choice, (with the DJ in Heavy, the Solitaire in Elites, the shooty skimmer probably in Fast and the Transpot skimmer as FA/DT), and the relevant Wargear rules apart from Relics have all been put in the WD.
I also believe that Shadowseer will be HQ, despite the fact that it landed in Elites slot atm on GW site - just too "big" unit to make it as Elite Slot. But about DJ in Heavy - I really doubt that, more probably it will be in Elites slot as it is in this category on GW shop right now - it might be temporary, of course, but I don't see this unit being HS, especially as it appears as one Clam Pack, each for 28$. As I said, in my opinion it is more probably some borrowed stuff from DE/E codexes in HS, or there will be no HS and a bit different CAD ( for example - instead of HS there will be 6 Elites or 6 FAs ).
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Doomaflatchi wrote: Well, the Starweaver kit does double as something called a Voidweaver, which is a "heavy weapons platform" that will probably be a Heavy Support slot... but I, too, find myself secretly and naively hoping for more units in the final Codex than what we've seen so far. I want Mimes!!
Damn, very interesting gossip - where did you hear about it?
Perhaps it will be something like Vypers, only more durable and heavier gunned? I'd love to see that instead of hijacked Ravagers and Prisms..
There was some chatter yesterday on Warseer about the Voidweaver. Apparently, some order sheets turned up at an LGS in Germany showing the words "Starweaver/Voidweaver" on them for next week's releases.
Not very solid, and no pics of the order sheet. But, as some have noted after looking at the picture that comes with the Troupe assembly instructions, the picture shows what appear to be two different variants of the Starweaver. One has underslung weapons, while the other has a pintle-mounted weapon (likely the Starweaver is the latter). Take it for what it's worth.
Not very solid, but seems legit and quite probable. I hope it is true, and Harlies will get actual unique HS slot.
By the by, it would fit my earlier observation about Troupe assembly instruction - skimmer on art there looks a bit different than Starweaver showed in latest leaks.
I just woke up to all the new models. YIPPEE! The new Death Jester and Shadowseer look AWESOME. Fortunately, my FLGS has a couple of everything Harlequin on preorder for me already
GW's plastics do not cost what they did in 2005, if they did they wouldn't be having these short runs and then ditching the models from sales. GW prices things however the they want- go look at their crapy eBook variety versions and tell me why those electrons cost sooo much to purchase (the Necron eBook cost as much as the old softback books!)
There is absolutely no reason why miniatures that cost what they did in metal cost close to twice that in plastic. And if they really do cost that much more, then why isn't GW making them in metal? They sure don't have interest in conversions anymore so it can't be because of that.
You know, I always have to look back and laugh when I hear people -- including ME -- make the argument that plastic models shouldn't cost more than metal, because plastic is cheaper than metal. I mean, it just sounds so logical. But then, how many of those people (Including me!) when they are asked, will honestly say that they prefer to model and paint metal miniatures? In almost every way that matters, HIPS is a superior material than pretty much everything else out there, including metal -- the significant one being that you can't strip it easily.
And, in almost every way that matters, new plastic multipart models are far superior to their old, metal counterparts. For example, Death Jester 1989 was a great model. I even have some in brand-new (unpainted) condition. But Death Jester 2015 is epic. Solitaire, ditto. Compare a new hero, like Karlaen, with an old one like Mephiston. The cape on Karlaen (multipart plastic) is far, far superior. The smoothness of plastic models is much better. For all large models (Dreadnought+ size) plastic is SO much better than metal that it's not funny. Can you imagine putting together a metal Imperial Knight or Stormraven?
This is not to say that, for nostalgic reasons I suppose, I don't always miss metal miniatures. I often wistfully wish that GW would produce metal minis again!
Doomaflatchi wrote: Well, the Starweaver kit does double as something called a Voidweaver, which is a "heavy weapons platform" that will probably be a Heavy Support slot... but I, too, find myself secretly and naively hoping for more units in the final Codex than what we've seen so far. I want Mimes!!
Is that confirmed yet? Last I saw that was just a rumor.
looking at the leaked pictures it does seem that some of what appear to be starweavers don't have the gun/gunner above the drivers head (could just be the angle but I don't think so), plus the leakers o mention them got the rest right
Paradigm wrote: It has the handy side-effect that buy buying 4 WDs (£2.40x4) rather than a £30 codex, and still have all the relevant parts.
Except for the Warlord traits, army-wide special rules, artifacts, formations and detachments, etc.
None of which are hugely relevant for just using them as plug-and-play allies as I will be. All will be leaked within a week or two anyway,so I can just note that down should I need them..
Well I am interested in them as a primary army since it was my first back in the late 80's early 90's. I would like to see Mimes as they used to have rules, but never models. But I am doubting that they will be made. I am happy that the transport can be something else too, another unit to the table.
Most players I know won't accept handwritten notes in place of the rules. While you may be able to get by using the rules presented in White Dwarf if you're using them as allies (which you didn't mention in your previous post) you will need the codex to play them as a standalone army.
Eiluj The Farseer wrote: Well I am interested in them as a primary army since it was my first back in the late 80's early 90's. I would like to see Mimes as they used to have rules, but never models. But I am doubting that they will be made. I am happy that the transport can be something else too, another unit to the table.
We're missing at least one heavy, durable unit for this to be a good primary army, I think. Also, we need a flyer, or at least a unit with Skyfire. And a monstrous creature wouldn't hurt
Eiluj The Farseer wrote: Well I am interested in them as a primary army since it was my first back in the late 80's early 90's. I would like to see Mimes as they used to have rules, but never models. But I am doubting that they will be made. I am happy that the transport can be something else too, another unit to the table.
We're missing at least one heavy, durable unit for this to be a good primary army, I think. Also, we need a flyer, or at least a unit with Skyfire. And a monstrous creature wouldn't hurt
Give us a Warithlord with a skyfire option and kill all the birds with one stone
I would love to see mockingbirds make a return. They were a modified Vyper that had a virbo cannon (sonic weapon) that the Harlequins used to make music for their dances and then turned it up to 11 for war.
I would love to see mockingbirds make a return. They were a modified Vyper that had a virbo cannon (sonic weapon) that the Harlequins used to make music for their dances and then turned it up to 11 for war.
We're missing at least one heavy, durable unit for this to be a good primary army, I think. Also, we need a flyer, or at least a unit with Skyfire. And a monstrous creature wouldn't hurt
Would you also like some fries with that?
But srsly, one of those wouldn't hurt, prefferably flyer - I would even just be ok with Eldar one with a bit changed rules. But, of course, unique one would be just perfect as well
Ouch, that sucks. Yeah, I guess you're right - codices are printed in China. Here I'm thinking about models - reading comprehension fail. Well, at least the leaks will keep me busy until the codex arrives!
I would love to see mockingbirds make a return. They were a modified Vyper that had a virbo cannon (sonic weapon) that the Harlequins used to make music for their dances and then turned it up to 11 for war.
You mean... A dubstep gun ?!
After the Dark Angels' flying DJ Platform, would make perfect sense to get a few big flying speakers as well
there will definitely be a plastic Death Jester and Shadowseer in my future...
these look like they will be a real challenge to paint...
i like the poses on the ruins for display painting...
i thought Nightspear was a great sculpt, but had to pass on it, since it was Finecast...
so happy to see that these are plastic!!!
ceorron wrote: I'm wondering if the death jester(s) come in units and if so if that model comes with more than the one weapon. Anyones guess really.
It looks like a monopose clampack so almost certainly not.
Thats a shame. If they do come in units only having 2 designs will be a real problem but it may inspire some great conversions if so. So that's something to look forward to.
ceorron wrote: I'm wondering if the death jester(s) come in units and if so if that model comes with more than the one weapon. Anyones guess really.
It looks like a monopose clampack so almost certainly not.
Thats a shame. If they do come in units only having 2 designs will be a real problem but it may inspire some great conversions if so. So that's something to look forward to.
Maybe they're units of 2 haha. It is a shame, I do wish at least some of the clampacks had more options. I know it's flogging a dead horse by now but it does feel like a missed oppertunity.
If you can take more than one (which is likely, Sang Priests, Meks etc. are all in a similar situation) then there appear to be at least a couple of skull type masks, some Scourge arms and other bitz and more DJs wouldnt be much of a problem to put together.
I see a couple of ways to convert extras after the two standard models. It's going to depend a lot on the codex. Sad to hear it won't be available for purchase the day of due to the strike. Makes me sad.
Some pics taken for you guys from the new White Dwarf
The Voidweaver comes with haywire blaster for 5 points can get the prism blaster. Can be 1-3 per squadron. 1 shuriken cannon is rear arc and can fire at a different target.
There is a section that talks about warlord traits and they recommend choosing the troupe master as he has access to all the Warlord traits and the BRB traits. There are 3 trait tables - Light, Twilight and Dark
Apperently the solitaire and deathjester have limits on what tables they can choose from and the solitaire can not have one....
I do not understand why limit the Troupes to 3 only? Does not make sense.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Looks like if you want to play Bound Harlequins you need the a unit of Skyweavers and Voidweavers, sorry everyone who didn't want to use 'quinbikes.
The Starweaver is a Fast Attack choice so you wouldn't need Skyreavers for a Battleforged list.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Looks like if you want to play Bound Harlequins you need the a unit of Skyweavers and Voidweavers, sorry everyone who didn't want to use 'quinbikes.
The Starweaver is a Fast Attack choice so you wouldn't need Skyreavers for a Battleforged list.
Ah I keep forgetting DTs are FA choices for 7th Ed codexs.
Derp
Eiluj The Farseer wrote: I do not understand why limit the Troupes to 3 only? Does not make sense.
Fluff. If you need a larger army, take another detachment, representing another Harlequin Masque (I believe that's the correct term for a Harlequin 'army').
Hmm, nevermind. I was planning to run at least four Starweavers so I guess I'd just have to go with two Masques and be fine.
Really like the Voidweaver. Seems like the prismatic thing would work better with the cannon and still get you some AT in a pinch. Better to leave the haywire on the Skyweavers at first glance.
That CAD is just beyond weird. Oh well, I guess I'm glad I preordered two boxes of bikes now.
Not a fan of the 6 man limit on the transport capacity in combination with the 3 troupe limit per Masque. That limits me to only 18 Harlies for the entire army! Lame.
Eiluj The Farseer wrote: I do not understand why limit the Troupes to 3 only? Does not make sense.
Fluff. If you need a larger army, take another detachment, representing another Harlequin Masque (I believe that's the correct term for a Harlequin 'army').
I get what you are saying, but if it was fluff, then it would contain Mimes that would be part of the troupe as well as a Master Mime and a High Avatar or now Troupe master, but it changes its fluff to suit its needs
It still mentions the mimes just not in the army
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Asmodas wrote: That CAD is just beyond weird. Oh well, I guess I'm glad I preordered two boxes of bikes now.
Not a fan of the 6 man limit on the transport capacity in combination with the 3 troupe limit per Masque. That limits me to only 18 Harlies for the entire army! Lame.
I must say that I do like the looks of the Voidweaver, though, and it seems like it could be pretty effective. I won't mind adding one of those to the team.
It limits you to 18 Harlies for one CAD if you plan to put them all in Starweavers.
You could easily have two CADs with 36 Harlequins.
If you play Maelstrom you'd probably want some smaller foot squads for close objective grabbing anyway (although Death Jesters might suit that role better...who knows).
That force org is terrible, I am not really wanting to play an army that restrictive and crappy.
I mean only 3 troops... no hq's, 1 heavy support...
Not really digging this, was really looking forward to this.
What garbage.
I think you need to assume that you are using two Masques and breakdown what units you wanted to use.
Did you really want more than two units of Voidweavers?
We're missing some key information, but I think the all Harlequin list I thought I wanted to run still 'fits', it's just framed in a different way.
H.B.M.C. wrote: No HQ? What a wasted opportunity to include a Great Harlequin. Doesn't even need a model. Regular Harli + Glaive from Skyweaver kit = Great Harli.
Or the glaive from the Starweaver kit that serves no purpose at all...
H.B.M.C. wrote: No HQ? What a wasted opportunity to include a Great Harlequin. Doesn't even need a model. Regular Harli + Glaive from Skyweaver kit = Great Harli.
How am I going to run Harlies as a small Allied Detachment for my Dark Eldar without any HQs?
H.B.M.C. wrote: No HQ? What a wasted opportunity to include a Great Harlequin. Doesn't even need a model. Regular Harli + Glaive from Skyweaver kit = Great Harli.
How am I going to run Harlies as a small Allied Detachment for my Dark Eldar without any HQs?
You just buy 3 boxes of Harlies, a Solitaire and 3 of the Skimmers. For the low, low cost of £150-ish, you too can actually use the minis you just bought.
Or you can feth that, and ask your opponents to be reaosnable and allow a Shadowseer or such to count as an HQ for allied detachment purposes. Outside of a tournament, I imagine few would refuse, if they do then just call it Unbound and do it anyway.
H.B.M.C. wrote: No HQ? What a wasted opportunity to include a Great Harlequin. Doesn't even need a model. Regular Harli + Glaive from Skyweaver kit = Great Harli.
How am I going to run Harlies as a small Allied Detachment for my Dark Eldar without any HQs?
I'm really hoping that this Detachment is designed for allying them into other armies, and isn't the only Detachment in the entire Codex. It's just... odd. >_> I mean, no Troupe Master? Really? Unless they do like the Harlequin Formation printed in the Valedor book, and let you upgrade one of your Troupe Leaders in your regular squads to a Troupe Master and give him extra buffs, in which case he wouldn't need a separate HQ slot. But that would also mean that using Harlequins at all in the tradition Ally Detachment is a no-go.
Also, I wouldn't freak out too much about the '18 Harlies' thing, as I would be completely shocked if the final Codex didn't include something like a Webway Portal or Psychic power for the Shadowseer to bring in bigger squads on foot. And the Starweaver looks great; it really stacks up well against the Venom for its cost, and seems like it'll be a real asset (which is good, as our only transport).
But requiring one HS slot... that's just strange. What if you don't like the Voidweaver? Or maybe Death Jesters will be Heavy Support? But no, that wouldn't make sense with the seven Elite slots...
Are there any alternate army formations in print that have been printed in advance of the book release and may give away a hitherto unknown unit and model?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Let me say I'm not suggesting it's likely, just looking for cause for a silver lining n
Azreal13 wrote: Is there anything to contradict this being some sort of WD only detachment and an HQ choice being in the codex?
Let me answer your question with another question:
Are there any alternate army formations in print that don't have an HQ choice?
Yes. For the Necrons you have the Judicator Battalion, Canoptek Harvest, Star-God, Annihilation Nexus, Living Tomb and Deathbringer Flight. Each is a Formation which does not contain any HQ choices.
But those make up an army, they're not armies unto themselves. I mean each of those Necron formations is a unit or a collection of units that make up one part of that Decurium (or whatever its called) army. Those don't have FOC's within themselves, or do they?
This is an alternate army configuration. I'm asking if there are any others (and most armies have one by now) that doesn't include an HQ choice.
The implication of the Harlequin FOC is that there are no HQ choice units, or else the FOC would be intentionally excluding their addition to that detachment for some reason. I there are no HQ units, it is impossible to run Harlequins as a Combined arms or Allied Detachment, as those require HQs.
As it stands, it is mpossible to run them as a standard CADor allies.
I'm by no means convinced, but strongly suspect, that this is something designed for WD to encompass the units that have been released this far, and there's a chance that when the book lands there'll be an HQ choice, if only some sort of minor upgrade to a Troupe Master.
Either that, or GW have utterly lost all semblance of competence with regard to designing their own game, and while I'm deeply cynical about GW's competence, I'm not sure they're that far down the rabbit hole yet.
ursvamp wrote: Wait...
Eiluj, can you confirm whether or not there is a codex up for preorder in this upcoming WD?
It is up for preorder if you want a pic I can do it.
The cool thing is there is a Dice and a CArds pack with the old power in there where the targeted unit gets Stealth and shrouded.
The DeathJester and Shadowseer are Elite Choices just like the solitaire.
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Azreal13 wrote: As it stands, it is mpossible to run them as a standard CADor allies.
I'm by no means convinced, but strongly suspect, that this is something designed for WD to encompass the units that have been released this far, and there's a chance that when the book lands there'll be an HQ choice, if only some sort of minor upgrade to a Troupe Master.
Either that, or GW have utterly lost all semblance of competence with regard to designing their own game, and while I'm deeply cynical about GW's competence, I'm not sure they're that far down the rabbit hole yet.
Remember though this would be similar to The Legions of the Damned - they have their own FOC just like Inquisition. LOTD do not have an HQ slot either you just pick one of the sergeants in the squad. But that was more of a mini-dex Online deal like Sisters and Inquisition.
I would love to see a high Avatar again.
Kinda wondering if we can expect to see a change to the regular Eldar version of the holofield (+1 Cover save if moving) to bring it into line with the new Harlequin version (5++ if not immobile).
Interesting detachment. I'm looking forward to seeing the command benefits and any formations that come in the book. Overall I like the detachment I think. Though I would have preferred one more option choice in each slot but I think it works.
Thanks for the pics, I guess it was too much to ask for the stealth and shrouding to be primaris power. So much random...
Still excited for this release. Will be curious to see the other psychic powers and what else may be in the codex though I think it's fair to say we're probably looking at most of it.
They make mention of more psychic powers, one that makes them really hard to hit is CC, another that makes the enemies hallucinate or fearfull. We shall have to see. I wish on the dice the symbols would be the '6' side.
insaniak wrote: I foresee a lot of arguments over how to determine the Voidweaver's rear facing...
agreed
I would like to have seen more troupes allowed for FOC
As we know many tournaments are stuck in 6th ed thinking and so running a double harliequin detachment will likely not be allowed or frowned upon at events, which as a person who in the 80's started with HArlies as their first army I would like to be able to play an all Harlequin army. But we shall see. I hope they get multiple detachments or formations to help with this.
"A typical Masque might include one Shadowseer and Death Jester per Troupe..."
But if they attach like characters, then the Troupe can't possibly fit in the required Skyweaver transport!!
Where does it say or even imply that they join one of the Troupes in the Masque?
It doesn't - I assumed it, because of the rest of 40k. Many Psychic powers only affect the Psyker's unit, and aside from the Solitaire (which is a special case), how many Elite Characters do you really see running around on their own in this game?
Also remember that the Skyweavers are the Jetbikes, not the Transport (that's the Starweaver)
But the point still stands that you can't fit a Troupe in a Starweaver if you attach a Shadowseer and Death Jester to them, though you could fit a Troupe with one of the characters (since the minimum sized Troupe is 5-strong)
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Also remember that the Skyweavers are the Jetbikes, not the Transport (that's the Starweaver)
You're right; I missed that on my first look. Those names are never going to get confusing, no sir...
Matt.Kingsley wrote: But the point still stands that you can't fit a Troupe in a Starweaver if you attach a Shadowseer and Death Jester to them, though you could fit a Troupe with one of the characters (since the minimum sized Troupe is 5-strong)
And I think that's just weird. Still, it's better than the Venom's old 5 capacity, were we wouldn't even be able to take a Shadowseer. I'm still hoping for the option to take a Webway Portal on the Shadowseers, though...
The 2+ LoS from the flip belt is starting to make more sense now but running a foot harlequin army wouldn't really be viable to get much use out of it.
Geez. I'm going to have to think about that one. Would've bought it for sure at the typical $165-$185 price. Wonder what it comes with? Better be more than just some cool prints....
Maybe it will come with a LE Harlequin High Avatar HQ data slate....
buckero0 wrote: So, do we have characters yet? The death jester and shadow seer are really the only hq candidates at this point, right?
Shadow seer is going to be,a psyker right, since we have pics of psychic cards
Rumor has it that the Shadowseer and Death Jester are both Characters, but they're Elites choices. Looks like we actually won't have any HQs. And yes, the Shadowseer will almost certainly be a full-fledged Psyker.
Well they recommend the Troupe master as the Warlord as he will have the most Warlord trait options apparently 3 tables dark, light and twilight. Shadowseers and deathjesters are limited and the solitaire can not have a warlord trait. Remember any character in 7th edition can be your warlord.
Raesvelg wrote: Kinda wondering if we can expect to see a change to the regular Eldar version of the holofield (+1 Cover save if moving) to bring it into line with the new Harlequin version (5++ if not immobile).
Not sure how I'd feel about it either way.
That would make it the same as the Dark Eldar Flickerfield.
That would be pretty OK, my vypers wouldn't have to hide in cover to survive. Really hoping this force organization chart is white dwarf specific. It doesn't appear to even have any sort of comma d benefit. That would be the 1st 7th ed detachment to do so.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: That would be pretty OK, my vypers wouldn't have to hide in cover to survive. Really hoping this force organization chart is white dwarf specific. It doesn't appear to even have any sort of comma d benefit. That would be the 1st 7th ed detachment to do so.
It does say at the bottom that they "gain benefits in game", so I'm just assuming that the bonuses aren't printed in WD, and that they'll show up in the Codex. *fingers crossed*
Well if this is what I am limited to (even if I can have a dedicated Harlequin army and not some crappy allies thing) then I am really uninterested and am heavily considering selling what Harlequin stuff I have.
This is the most restrictive, dull thing they could have done...
God I really thought this was what was going to bring me back into the warhammer fold, since the terrible rumours I am hearing about Fantasy will have left that game unplayable...
Can I ask what your dream army list looked like then?
I was planning on 6 troupes, 4 Starweavers and fill the restof the space with elites and 'stuff'.
I like the look of the Voidweaver so the fact that I need to take at least 2 of them doesn't ruin things for me.
I'm worried about how much room I'll have for DJs and Seers at 1750, hopefully at least 2 of each will fit.
Yeah, I'm pretty happy at the end of the day. Harlequin Troupes got better for the same cost, Shadowseers get more psychic kit, Death Jesters get to go solo again instead of conflicting with their unit's shooting profile, the Starweaver is fantastic for a dedicated transport, freaking Harlequin Jetbikes, and we even got rules for a Solitaire! Sure, I'd wish for a High Avatar and Mimes, but when all is said and done I'm still going to be running pure Harlequins just for the awesomeness of it.
Doomaflatchi wrote: Yeah, I'm pretty happy at the end of the day. Harlequin Troupes got better for the same cost, Shadowseers get more psychic kit, Death Jesters get to go solo again instead of conflicting with their unit's shooting profile, the Starweaver is fantastic for a dedicated transport, freaking Harlequin Jetbikes, and we even got rules for a Solitaire! Sure, I'd wish for a High Avatar and Mimes, but when all is said and done I'm still going to be running pure Harlequins just for the awesomeness of it.
Completely agree, given how much stuff GW has cut from recent codexes I was happy enough to see the Solitaire return let alone some pretty nice new stuff as it could have easily been a simple plastic reboot of the Troupe.
Voidweaver Prismatic Cannon is a bit underwhelming design-wise, something more like the ones the Shadow Spectre have might look a bit better but easy enough to convert and thats being picky! Going to be an expensive order come Friday as I was waiting to see what else was coming!
People, stop your doomsaying and think for a moment. Has there been any 7th Ed codex without multiple detachments/formations? Nope. So why would this be any different? Just wait for all the formations before you throw your Harlies in the trash.
insaniak wrote: I foresee a lot of arguments over how to determine the Voidweaver's rear facing...
Why?
Because the 7 th Ed rules are no clearer than previous editions on how to determine the facings on non-rectangular vehicles, and the way you choose to do so will have a large impact on the fire arc of the aft weapon.
insaniak wrote: I foresee a lot of arguments over how to determine the Voidweaver's rear facing...
Why?
Because the 7 th Ed rules are no clearer than previous editions on how to determine the facings on non-rectangular vehicles, and the way you choose to do so will have a large impact on the fire arc of the aft weapon.
It's just further evidence the GW rule writers don't read/understand their own rules. Almost any player would have seen "weapon can fire in rear facing arc" and thought "wait, that's stupid given our rules don't define armour facing for vehicles without clearly defined corners".
I wonder how they determine armour facings in the studio, or maybe they just don't bother playing the game any more so it's not relevant
Rear arc is easy. The thing is a triangle, so work out the rear arc that way. Draw a line from the nose to the wingtip and extend it back to figure if something is in the side or rear.
It's the front vs side arcs that are problematic on it.
MajorWesJanson wrote: Rear arc is easy. The thing is a triangle, so work out the rear arc that way. Draw a line from the nose to the wingtip and extend it back to figure if something is in the side or rear.
It's the front vs side arcs that are problematic on it.
I'm not sure why side or front would be harder to determine than rear. To make your triangle you either treat it as a 3 cornered shape, in which case you need to define what is the frontal "point", otherwise you treat it as a 4 cornered shape, the 2 front prongs and the edges of the wing-thingies as the rear corners.
Either way, if you can determine the rear arc you simply extend the lines to determine the front and side arcs.
MajorWesJanson wrote: Rear arc is easy. The thing is a triangle, so work out the rear arc that way. Draw a line from the nose to the wingtip and extend it back to figure if something is in the side or rear..
A workable house rule, but not how the rulebook says to do it.
Starweavers are officially awesome. I'd kill to let my tau have a few (it will make EMP commandos work!, until next codex will take away our haywire mass too at least )
Open-topped skimmer is nice for assaults, having it get a 4++ on demand, even if once only-it a godsend. it will take at the very least some decent firepower to down the thing, without even hurting its not-too-shabby damage output.
Its no WS, but nothing is quite a WS, but I'd say it competes with ghost ark for the second-best transport around.
Not sure about the voidreaver though. the EMP cannon is nice, but not enough to be a true anti-tank solultion. the prism cannon looks like an intresting TAC option though.
As for the FoC chart, I'd say its early to panic. by what I see so far what I suspect is that you can take an entire FoC for its (non-listed) benefits, or take a single trope and up to a single character as a "formation" (and naturally as 7th go duplicate it as much as you want)
Frankly - I am not even that mad about the restrictions of FOC, especially as I will still be able to field them alone (thanks to this being actual Detachement and I am able to take Warlord Trait on basically any character), and as I wasn't planning them to be some BIG force anyway - something about max 2000 points.
Shame about lack of some big time HQ of course, but oh well - maybe there will be one in a dex ?
The things that I am really happy about instead is the Voidweaver, it looks just fine, and will be enough of HS slot for this type of army, and will be able to do some tank hunting, as well as of course that we will get actual Codex - full, Hard Cover, official release with probably more Detachements and additions.
I'm hoping that some of the Eldar and DE choices that are suitable make it into the codex proper, but I'm not going to hold my breath as they seem to expect you to use allies to add them in. This is fine however you are stuck with the troop tax and neither the Eldar or DE troops really fits in properly.
My first reaction to the void weaver was 'wtf, its got so many guns, its way undercosted when compared to a venom'.
But then I got to thinking, aside from range issues (which are huge for an AV 10 vehicle having to get within 24 inches to attack); this is a rather nice depature from what GW normally does with regards to points.
A lot of times you pay for something regardless of its usefulness. Tac Terminators are a good example. They pay so many points for a combination of gear that on paper sounds fantastic, but at the end of the day is pretty useless.
They pay gobs of points for +2 armor, that at the end of the way is tactically restrictive. They pay for a stormbolter, which is really a sad amount of firepower compared to the overall price of the unit. And they pay for a powerfist, while devastating, rarely ever sees action in skilled play (the terminators are either avoided or killed before use).
Burna boyz are another example of paying a lot of points for a dangerous weapon, but ultimately its on a pathetically weak chasis (just an ork boy).
These voidweavers do have a fantastic amount of firepower, but its not firepower it can really use all at the same time. I think 75 points is actually quite fair considering the platform's limitations.
I imagine the Masque is just like the Coven Coterie basic detachment that nobody uses. There will be formations we haven't seen yet and they'll be more usable than the Masque.
So Death Jesters and Shadowseers are their own units now? Maybe they can be allocated out like Warlocks?
mercury14 wrote: I imagine the Masque is just like the Coven Coterie basic detachment that nobody uses. There will be formations we haven't seen yet and they'll be more usable than the Masque.
So Death Jesters and Shadowseers are their own units now? Maybe they can be allocated out like Warlocks?
They used to be their own units back in the day, this is just a return to what they should be !
mercury14 wrote: I imagine the Masque is just like the Coven Coterie basic detachment that nobody uses. There will be formations we haven't seen yet and they'll be more usable than the Masque.
So Death Jesters and Shadowseers are their own units now? Maybe they can be allocated out like Warlocks?
I would think that 2014-style basic detachments as used with the recent Dark Eldar release are likely dead now.
I'd expect it to be similar to the Necrons' Reclamation Legion, with other formations building on it, adding to a "super-formation.detachment". Masque could either be the 1+ "core" or the name for the "super-formation" that comprises variable amounts of smaller "sub-formations".
drazz wrote: Does this mean, with the possibility of commonly running two detachments. That two Solitaires will be an option? One per detachment?
Nope they are unique you can only bring 1 per army.
You can't bring two Mephistons or Marneus Calgars or Avatars of Khaine can you? No double CAD does not help you with unique characters.
In White Dwarf 53 GW released some kind of ally rules and a matrix for the Harlequins. I could not find a scan of it online. Has someone access to the issue and could post a photo or description how it works, please? It is currently impossible to ally Harlequins with CWE/DE as they have no HQ unit. Maybe these WD rules allow it
Warhams-77 wrote: In White Dwarf 53 GW released some kind of ally rules and a matrix for the Harlequins. I could not find a scan of it online. Has someone access to the issue and could post a photo or description how it works, please? It is currently impossible to ally Harlequins with CWE/DE as they have no HQ unit. Maybe these WD rules allow it
They can't use an Allied Detachment. Instead, they must use the Masque detachment (printed in part in issue 55, scanned a page or two back) or play unbound, depending on how many you want to use.
In any case, they are BB with Eldar and DE, AoC with the Imperium and Tau, and Desperate or Come The Apoc with anyone else.
Mymearan wrote: People, stop your doomsaying and think for a moment. Has there been any 7th Ed codex without multiple detachments/formations? Nope. So why would this be any different? Just wait for all the formations before you throw your Harlies in the trash.
Except most tournaments I've seen/gone to don't allow those formations/allies, only bare bones codexes/standard force org...
7th ed is a broken pile of insanity if you let everyone just do whatever...so as far as I am concerned, if Harlequins have no HQ, not a standard force org (instead whatever crazyness that one is) then I am not interested in the army.
All are codexes with special force org detachments that don't include the majority of what we know of as the force org. They will be legit for Tournament play in any non-single detachment event. They just have certain requirements to bring.
That said depending on the Shadowseers I can totally understand why they force everything but elites to be full. Imagine being able to take a ton of eldar psykers for super small taxes on other units.
Reasonable?
They've been pretty consistent with the eldar/dark eldar weapon options. The mini having just a cannon may not matter, it's not as though Meks and Sang Priest clam packs include all their options.
All are codexes with special force org detachments that don't include the majority of what we know of as the force org. They will be legit for Tournament play in any non-single detachment event. They just have certain requirements to bring.
That said depending on the Shadowseers I can totally understand why they force everything but elites to be full. Imagine being able to take a ton of eldar psykers for super small taxes on other units.
Agreed - just with they would allow more than 3 troop choices....
Did a little math hammer last night - now we do not know prices on all wargear or deathjesters and psyckers, but did 3 squads of 5 - with starweavers , 1 squad had 3 kisses and 2 caresses, the other two had the same but with neurodisruptors, had a Solitaire, bikes 3 man with glaive for about 1000 pts.. not cheap
Alpharius wrote: If the codex has HQ options like the Great Harlequin/Avatar, GW will have successfully pulled me back into 40K.
Mimes too?
Wow!
A big IF though, right?
I'm still hoping something like that is in there...
I'm guessing wer're going to see exclusions like these pretty consistently going forward. It gives them some room for future expansions through supplements and campaign books.
drazz wrote: Does this mean, with the possibility of commonly running two detachments. That two Solitaires will be an option? One per detachment?
Nope they are unique you can only bring 1 per army.
You can't bring two Mephistons or Marneus Calgars or Avatars of Khaine can you? No double CAD does not help you with unique characters.
It's "A" solitaire, not "the" solitaire, so I'm pretty sure you can take multiples, and you can indeed take more than one avatar, read Heart of the Craftworld special rule, you can have as many avatars as you have detachments
drazz wrote: Does this mean, with the possibility of commonly running two detachments. That two Solitaires will be an option? One per detachment?
Nope they are unique you can only bring 1 per army.
You can't bring two Mephistons or Marneus Calgars or Avatars of Khaine can you? No double CAD does not help you with unique characters.
It's "A" solitaire, not "the" solitaire, so I'm pretty sure you can take multiples, and you can indeed take more than one avatar, read Heart of the Craftworld special rule, you can have as many avatars as you have detachments
However according to the rules an army can only have one Solitaire, no matter how many detachments you take.
Mymearan wrote: People, stop your doomsaying and think for a moment. Has there been any 7th Ed codex without multiple detachments/formations? Nope. So why would this be any different? Just wait for all the formations before you throw your Harlies in the trash.
Except most tournaments I've seen/gone to don't allow those formations/allies, only bare bones codexes/standard force org...
7th ed is a broken pile of insanity if you let everyone just do whatever...so as far as I am concerned, if Harlequins have no HQ, not a standard force org (instead whatever crazyness that one is) then I am not interested in the army.
Technically Space wolves only have one formation, they have more in the Champions of Fenris Supplement but the actual codex only has the great company formation which is a bit rubbish really.
I think it's fine to have all these fancy organisations but it is restrictive if you don't want to play an army as suggested, whether for fluff/competitive/or you just want to add to your forces without playing unbound if you actually want to mix and match legally
Well point is, that force org is extremely restrictive, and for base play people follow the force orgs, not formations or allies (least in my gaming circle).
So this army, to me, is a bust.
Feel I ought to cut my losses and go try sisters, sell/trade my remaining junk (as well as everything I bought prematurely for this army).
Rainbow Dash wrote: Well point is, that force org is extremely restrictive, and for base play people follow the force orgs, not formations or allies (least in my gaming circle).
So this army, to me, is a bust.
Feel I ought to cut my losses and go try sisters, sell/trade my remaining junk (as well as everything I bought prematurely for this army).
This sounds more like a problem with your gaming groups than with the rules.
Rainbow Dash wrote: Well point is, that force org is extremely restrictive, and for base play people follow the force orgs, not formations or allies (least in my gaming circle).
So this army, to me, is a bust.
Feel I ought to cut my losses and go try sisters, sell/trade my remaining junk (as well as everything I bought prematurely for this army).
This sounds more like a problem with your gaming groups than with the rules.
Well it is what it is, though as I have stated, even if I wanted to ally, I can't since I have no other 40k armies.
I just wanted Harlequins, and I am severely bummed out how they turned out.
Rainbow Dash wrote: Well point is, that force org is extremely restrictive, and for base play people follow the force orgs, not formations or allies (least in my gaming circle).
So this army, to me, is a bust.
Feel I ought to cut my losses and go try sisters, sell/trade my remaining junk (as well as everything I bought prematurely for this army).
This sounds more like a problem with your gaming groups than with the rules.
Well it is what it is, though as I have stated, even if I wanted to ally, I can't since I have no other 40k armies.
I just wanted Harlequins, and I am severely bummed out how they turned out.
Holy crap dude.
We know relatively nothing about the force org, and you're already complaining?
Don't like it? Then don't play. But don't come here posting repeatedly about how dashed your hopes were when you know nothing. First, nobody cares. We understood the first time. You were bummed. Got it.
Seriously, it's just kinda pathetic.
Well, we actually know everything about the force org, in full, unflinching detail.
What we don't know, yet, is if there are unannounced (and unrumoured, which this close to release means it's unlikely) models which WD can't feature yet which make a difference, or more detachments/force orgs in the Codex outside of this one.
Expressing disappointment at GW potentially screwing up a cool army because they're dumb may be a touch premature, but it isn't hugely unjustified this close to release.
Gentlemen, the tone is getting a bit shrill. Rule Number One is Be Polite. This is a discussion forum, people are free to air their opinions one way or the other -- just please keep the personal attacks out of it. Thanks.
Azreal13 wrote: Well, we actually know everything about the force org, in full, unflinching detail.
What we don't know, yet, is if there are unannounced (and unrumoured, which this close to release means it's unlikely) models which WD can't feature yet which make a difference, or more detachments/force orgs in the Codex outside of this one.
Expressing disappointment at GW potentially screwing up a cool army because they're dumb may be a touch premature, but it isn't hugely unjustified this close to release.
I do think we have to wait until we get the codex. There may be more detachments or more likely formations that can be taken with the detachment. I would love to see more units in the codex, my guess is that Mimes and other things will be left out. We did get a transport, a gun boat, bikes and the solitaire back so all in all it is much better than what it has been since second edition.
The Harlequins have always been a fragile army and an expensive point sink one. I do not think it will a top tier army by itself. I do think it is playable. I learned early on, play what you want and you will get good at it if you keep practicing with it. Don't be discouraged at first, this is a new army rules set, you are going to lose a lot before you start winning and learning how to run things properly and what works best for you.
I agree that personal attacks are not warranted ever. However, I think complaining about things incessintly does not benifit anyone either. We can not change the rules, we just have to deal with what we get or if we can not handle this, play a different game. If you think it will be better with Sisters... good luck with that. I play Sisters too, but I am very aware of their limmitations. Can they win? Hell yeah... are they top tier? Nope.
This force organization is more than a bit restrictive, however, the secrets of the black library may add the few thing we're missing. Could a relic grant stealth and infiltrate to a unit? Could a relic spear give a troupemaster an extra wound and other associated goodies. We may well have all the options we want, we just don't know. (Don't forget, the eldar codex gave us our first taste of a "special character" creating relic with the mantle) I was going to buy 3 of the vehicles, 2 boxes of skyweavers, a troupe box and a wych box(to give me a total of 23 harlis) and I already have the solitaire, death jester, and 2 shadowseers. Looks like I'll have everything I need to run that army. Happy times! Of you're seriously looking to drop your harlequins, please pm me, I have a significant amount of money set aside for this release
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: This force organization is more than a bit restrictive, however, the secrets of the black library may add the few thing we're missing. Could a relic grant stealth and infiltrate to a unit? Could a relic spear give a troupemaster an extra wound and other associated goodies. We may well have all the options we want, we just don't know. (Don't forget, the eldar codex gave us our first taste of a "special character" creating relic with the mantle) I was going to buy 3 of the vehicles, 2 boxes of skyweavers, a troupe box and a wych box(to give me a total of 23 harlis) and I already have the solitaire, death jester, and 2 shadowseers. Looks like I'll have everything I need to run that army. Happy times! Of you're seriously looking to drop your harlequins, please pm me, I have a significant amount of money set aside for this release
Access to webway portals could make a big difference, as well, and would totally make sense given that Harlies live in the webway. No-scatter-deepstriking Harlies with fusion pistols could be quite fun.
Same offer from me, Rainbow Dash. If you want to unload your Harlequins, PM me you with what you have ordered so far.
Look at the post from Chaosftw, the text that goes along with the detachment picture helps explain quite a bit. The way it's worded leads me to believe that formation is optional.
It notes that included with the "Troupe Master Edition" (or whatever) are psychic cards for Telepathy and Sanctic Demonology. Harlequins with Hammerhand or Gate of Infiniti, anyone?
I hadn't even thought about this possibility before, but it actually makes perfect sense. Like the Grey Knights, the Harlequins are devoted to a god that is diametrically opposed to chaos.
I foresee additional Shadowseer purchases in my future.
Asmodas wrote: Like the Grey Knights, the Harlequins are devoted to a god that is diametrically opposed to chaos.
Very true! Although, in the vein of fun lore-bantering, I think it might be more accurate to say that the reverse is actually true - that Chaos (more specifically Slaanesh) is diametrically opposed to their god (being born from the downfall of the Eldar race and constituting everything wrong with them).
Sorry if I'm late. I just saw the "limited edition" price. $205.... Really? REALLY??? Is this thing gold plated or something? Keeping with tradition I fail to see why a few art prints and a paper certificate is worth a 400% increase in price.
I get it's artificially "rare" but I don't see how anyone could justify that much of an increase for that little benefit.
Asmodas wrote: Like the Grey Knights, the Harlequins are devoted to a god that is diametrically opposed to chaos.
Very true! Although, in the vein of fun lore-bantering, I think it might be more accurate to say that the reverse is actually true - that Chaos (more specifically Slaanesh) is diametrically opposed to their god (being born from the downfall of the Eldar race and constituting everything wrong with them).
Haha, true enough!
Seriously, though, as long as the Shadowseer isn't Mastery Level 1, she is going to be a boss. These are some great disciplines to have access to. Telepathy is also excellent! Harlequins using Sanctuary to buff up their invulns? Yes please!
Asmodas wrote: Seriously, though, as long as the Shadowseer isn't Mastery Level 1, she is going to be a boss.
No, you fool!! You jinxed it!!!
Seriously though, if the Shadowseer is Mastery Level 1 I will cry. Just straight up bawl. The current Psychic phase rules in 40k are such that no Mastery Level 1 psyker can reliably get a power off; they only exist to be taken en masse and buff your dice pool for the guys who are actually casting things (like Warlocks with Farseers, for example). I honestly expect them to be Mastery Level 2, which is still just barely sufficient - with one ML2 Shadowseer per squad, I could reliably get off one maybe two powers per turn, but only if my opponent wasn't fielding a Farseer Council or the like with a fistfull of counterspell dice.
Asmodas wrote: Seriously, though, as long as the Shadowseer isn't Mastery Level 1, she is going to be a boss.
No, you fool!! You jinxed it!!!
Seriously though, if the Shadowseer is Mastery Level 1 I will cry. Just straight up bawl. The current Psychic phase rules in 40k are such that no Mastery Level 1 psyker can reliably get a power off; they only exist to be taken en masse and buff your dice pool for the guys who are actually casting things (like Warlocks with Farseers, for example). I honestly expect them to be Mastery Level 2, which is still just barely sufficient - with one ML2 Shadowseer per squad, I could reliably get off one maybe two powers per turn, but only if my opponent wasn't fielding a Farseer Council or the like with a fistfull of counterspell dice.
Rainbow Dash wrote: Well point is, that force org is extremely restrictive, and for base play people follow the force orgs, not formations or allies (least in my gaming circle). So this army, to me, is a bust. Feel I ought to cut my losses and go try sisters, sell/trade my remaining junk (as well as everything I bought prematurely for this army).
This sounds more like a problem with your gaming groups than with the rules.
Well it is what it is, though as I have stated, even if I wanted to ally, I can't since I have no other 40k armies. I just wanted Harlequins, and I am severely bummed out how they turned out.
Holy crap dude. We know relatively nothing about the force org, and you're already complaining? Don't like it? Then don't play. But don't come here posting repeatedly about how dashed your hopes were when you know nothing. First, nobody cares. We understood the first time. You were bummed. Got it. Seriously, it's just kinda pathetic.
Damn, why so aggresive, come on, we are all friends in this hobby -.-
I fully support Rainbow Dash's opinion about him feeling dissapointed and not being so hasty about jumping into buying this army. It is somewhat lacking, doesn't have even common HQ slot, and shackles player in using very limited Detachement, if there will be no more FOCs in Actual Codex and it doesn't seem that there will be any. Limited, little force more designed as an ally to existing army than 100% army itself like in 2nd ed.
But I, for example, am still just fine about this army and happy about buying Solitaire and 2 Troupes already - I will still be able to field these guys alone because they will have actual Codex, still got most of the bases covered, getting fast and hard-hitting army, cool elites with amazing DJ and Shadowseer on top, hell, even with cool-looking Skimmer HS. And I plan to make these 1500-2000 top, so I am not mad about it being restrictive.
So, you still want to argue who is right, who is wrong in case of his/her FEELINGS about new Harlies ? Or you just would like to admit that only pathetic thing here was passive-aggresive attitude and "Don't like it - don't play it, we don't give a duck and shut up, DUUUUUH" approach, and then just move along ?
Remember that bit about the Skaven calling some Eldar in the new end times book as they looted a Lizardmen city. What if they accidentally called Harlequins and they come and save the Fantasy universe!? The Elves are really just hill billy Eldar.
I don't understand. How does the force organization chart that was posted limit the ability to field a pure Harlequins army? What is restrictive about it?
Jambles wrote: I don't understand. How does the force organization chart that was posted limit the ability to field a pure Harlequins army? What is restrictive about it?
It doesn't.
Currently, the lack of an HQ restricts the ability to field any other detachment other than the special one in the WD.
edit: This is the same as Codex: Inq. They can't field a CAD or an Allied detachment now, iirc.
Jambles wrote: I don't understand. How does the force organization chart that was posted limit the ability to field a pure Harlequins army? What is restrictive about it?
The fact that it has so many mandatory slots is what makes me rub my head, and the fact that once those slots are filled, you can't add any more to them without doubling them. It means that (aside from wargear options) all harlequin armies using this detachment are going to be nearly identical.
Asmodas wrote: Seriously, though, as long as the Shadowseer isn't Mastery Level 1, she is going to be a boss.
No, you fool!! You jinxed it!!!
Seriously though, if the Shadowseer is Mastery Level 1 I will cry. Just straight up bawl. The current Psychic phase rules in 40k are such that no Mastery Level 1 psyker can reliably get a power off; they only exist to be taken en masse and buff your dice pool for the guys who are actually casting things (like Warlocks with Farseers, for example). I honestly expect them to be Mastery Level 2, which is still just barely sufficient - with one ML2 Shadowseer per squad, I could reliably get off one maybe two powers per turn, but only if my opponent wasn't fielding a Farseer Council or the like with a fistfull of counterspell dice.
That's why you bring your own Farseers!
I'd be quite shocked if Shadowseers are ML2, or if they are for them to be Independent characters (as opposed to characters that can only join troupes, ala warlocks). I'd want to be wrong, but tbh it would be so easily abused I just don't see it. Add 2 farseers or 1 Farseer and 5 spirit seers, and some crazy shenanigans start happening. I'll be right on the edge of that shenanigan-wagon if they do turn out to be ML2, but I'm not going to hold my breath.
Jambles wrote: I don't understand. How does the force organization chart that was posted limit the ability to field a pure Harlequins army? What is restrictive about it?
It doesn't.
Currently, the lack of an HQ restricts the ability to field any other detachment other than the special one in the WD.
edit: This is the same as Codex: Inq. They can't field a CAD or an Allied detachment now, iirc.
It's too bad, I would have liked to ally in some Harlies to my CWE. Maybe they'll get a formation or something.
But if somebody wants to play just Harlequins I don't see what deal is. There's nothing preventing you from taking multiples of everything they have on offer in the given detachment. Are people really that married to Objective Secured?
Yeah its 500pts of potential junk, and with the solitaire being unique what the hell are you going to fill the elite slots with? More shuriken cannons? Woooo friggin hoo.
Right now the dex is hanging on formations, relics, psychic powers (primaris mostly) and how it allies in with eldar and dark eldar. If it is limited to this detachment you need to spend 500pts on meh junk you might not even use. 2 wound T4 modelds with a limit of 6 per unit and a stupid high point cost isn't exactly exciting.
2+ wound ap2 river blades would sure make that solitaire closer to worth taking considering a tactical squad can drop it in a volley.
Jambles wrote: I don't understand. How does the force organization chart that was posted limit the ability to field a pure Harlequins army? What is restrictive about it?
The fact that it has so many mandatory slots is what makes me rub my head, and the fact that once those slots are filled, you can't add any more to them without doubling them. It means that (aside from wargear options) all harlequin armies using this detachment are going to be nearly identical.
There's only like seven units in the codex... how were they going to distinguish themselves otherwise?
Sure the mandatory minimum slots isn't great if you want to attach them to another detachment like I wanted to, but three troupes is potentially like thirty harlequins if you max the units right? That's a good chunk of troops for a pure army.
Ravenous D wrote: Yeah its 500pts of potential junk, and with the solitaire being unique what the hell are you going to fill the elite slots with? More shuriken cannons? Woooo friggin hoo.
Right now the dex is hanging on formations, relics, psychic powers (primaris mostly) and how it allies in with eldar and dark eldar. If it is limited to this detachment you need to spend 500pts on meh junk you might not even use. 2 wound T4 modelds with a limit of 6 per unit and a stupid high point cost isn't exactly exciting.
2+ wound ap2 river blades would sure make that solitaire closer to worth taking considering a tactical squad can drop it in a volley.
If you are referring to the bikes, you don't need to take them to use the detachment. The Starweaver transport is Fast Attack. I assume you will want transports for your Harlies, so just buy the transports as FA choices rather than Dedicated Transports. Problem solved. The only thing that is really off is the required Voidweaver. I don't understand why it's required, as I'd imagine CWE/DE might prefer to bring their own gunboats.
Jambles wrote: I don't understand. How does the force organization chart that was posted limit the ability to field a pure Harlequins army? What is restrictive about it?
The fact that it has so many mandatory slots is what makes me rub my head, and the fact that once those slots are filled, you can't add any more to them without doubling them. It means that (aside from wargear options) all harlequin armies using this detachment are going to be nearly identical.
Ok, so lets assume that 2 Masques are the default for running a pure Harlequin force.
That gives you 6 troupes, of 5-12 models each.
You can either attach Starweavers to the squads, in which case they don't fill slots, or use them to fill your FA slots, which would give you 4 Starweavers.
You could also fill or partially fill those slots with Skyweaver squads, giving you anywhere from one squad of 2 Skyweavers to 4 squads of 6.
You have to have two Voidweavers, and can have up to 6 in two squadsof 3.
Finally you have 0-14 combinations of 1 Solitaire, multiple DJs and/or Seers.
I certainly appreciate that it's more restrictive than 'not at all restrictive' but there are still a lot of options for variety there given the limited unit options in the first place.
Ravenous D wrote: Yeah its 500pts of potential junk, and with the solitaire being unique what the hell are you going to fill the elite slots with? More shuriken cannons? Woooo friggin hoo.
Right now the dex is hanging on formations, relics, psychic powers (primaris mostly) and how it allies in with eldar and dark eldar. If it is limited to this detachment you need to spend 500pts on meh junk you might not even use. 2 wound T4 modelds with a limit of 6 per unit and a stupid high point cost isn't exactly exciting.
2+ wound ap2 river blades would sure make that solitaire closer to worth taking considering a tactical squad can drop it in a volley.
If you are referring to the bikes, you don't need to take them to use the detachment. The Starweaver transport is Fast Attack. I assume you will want transports for your Harlies, so just buy the transports as FA choices rather than Dedicated Transports. Problem solved. The only thing that is really off is the required Voidweaver. I don't understand why it's required, as I'd imagine CWE/DE might prefer to bring their own gunboats.
Yeah, Skyweavers aren't mandatory at all.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Not seeing any of those pics here Warhams.
The thing that works against Harlies that doesn't apply to Inq though is the high number of base units. As it stands, one can't simply run a single troupe in a Starweaver with a boss and be battle forged.
One can just chuck an Inquisitor and a few other bits (or just an Inq) alongside another force.
Ravenous D wrote: Yeah its 500pts of potential junk, and with the solitaire being unique what the hell are you going to fill the elite slots with? More shuriken cannons? Woooo friggin hoo.
Right now the dex is hanging on formations, relics, psychic powers (primaris mostly) and how it allies in with eldar and dark eldar. If it is limited to this detachment you need to spend 500pts on meh junk you might not even use. 2 wound T4 modelds with a limit of 6 per unit and a stupid high point cost isn't exactly exciting.
2+ wound ap2 river blades would sure make that solitaire closer to worth taking considering a tactical squad can drop it in a volley.
If you are referring to the bikes, you don't need to take them to use the detachment. The Starweaver transport is Fast Attack. I assume you will want transports for your Harlies, so just buy the transports as FA choices rather than Dedicated Transports. Problem solved. The only thing that is really off is the required Voidweaver. I don't understand why it's required, as I'd imagine CWE/DE might prefer to bring their own gunboats.
Yeah but still you are being forced to take options that aren't optimal or really of your choice, which is seemingly the next step in the GW pay to win scheme with the reduction of content and rules unless you pay up.
Minimum is 3x5 harlies for 285pts, 2 starweavers for 140 and a voidweaver for 75. That's a crap investment unless you dump even more points into a CC army with a few over priced haywire guns. Unless the psychic powers are amazing at protecting the troops and the relics give some actual bite or survivability this book just isn't that great from a gameplay stand point.
Ravenous D wrote: That's a crap investment unless you dump even more points into a CC army with a few over priced haywire guns. Unless the psychic powers are amazing at protecting the troops and the relics give some actual bite or survivability this book just isn't that great from a gameplay stand point.
Uh, yeah, if you don't want to play Harlequins (a CC army) then Harlequins probably aren't for you.
I really really hope that there are more detachments, i want to give GW money, but not if it's that detachment only. Formations might be alright, but you never know....
Dont think harlies will be for anybody with a crap detachment like that. Total of what? 3 starweavers, 18 skyweavers, 36 harlies, 3 voidweavers and 7 characters? Unless those powers and relics are ground breakingly awesome that's an incredibly gak army for over 2500pts.
Guard, marines, tau and eldar could shoot that off the map unless they have some mass invisibility power or access to incredible invulnerable boosts.
The point is they are a CC armies that will never get there, and even when they are there they wont have the numbers to do the damage. Really they only get is loads of haywire. They don't add to Eldar or Dark Eldar at all other then taking out a minimum of 500pts on "meh".
Well I'm stoked whichever ways it goes. Codex works out - I'll play Harlis are part of my ECW army. If it really blows and doesn't - still happy as have a gak-tonne of awesome new figs for painting and converting. And as I've been waiting ages for these guys to get redone and plasticed; I'm more happy about that 2nd part than anything. That m'fing glass, she be half full, of crystal
We should probably just stop freaking out over the detachment until we have more Codex details. Maybe this indeed is what we are stuck with if we want to play Harlequins, but I kind of doubt it. The WD description mentions benefits from using the Masque Detachment, which suggests that there are ways to field them without using a Masque.
I think it's fair to say that we are in general agreement here that the Masque detachment isn't something you will want to use every game, but with such a limited selection of units, the Codex almost has to include formations (just like every other Codex recently). If the Necron Codex is any guide, those formations may have a significant effect on how the Codex as a whole will be received.
If you look at it from a sales viewpoint, the increase in fracturing factions into sub factions, mini dexes, allies etc could all be considered an effort to encourage people to branch out into other armies by making it much easier to add small amounts of models and then (they hope) grow from there.
The Masque detachment runs totally contrary to that, requiring a three figure investment to add the necessary models, I just don't see them investing in what is in essence a whole new factions worth of product and then setting it up in such a way to make it a tough decision to buy in.
Wondering if they will have a 'pick an elite as your HQ' option outside of the Masque?
It sounds like they have a uniquely diverse Warlord trait selection, maybe you can pick a new warlord in-game if yours is killed? Might make sense from a 'shifting role' perspective.
Anyway.
Deciding between pre-ordering 6 Star/Voidweavers or 8...
Alpharius wrote: Good point - that wouldn't make much sense at all...
Which is probably why requiring a big buy in for an army to conform to a rigid force org that is difficult to fit in with other armies is exactly what'll happen.
On a skimmer base for extra balancing skills! 
they want- go look at their crapy eBook variety versions and tell me why those electrons cost sooo much to purchase (the Necron eBook cost as much as the old softback books!)
by Para..
