Zande4 wrote:
Ah yep for the shrikes I can change it to 27 a into 18 hits into 6 wounds of those 6 wounds they have to be 5+ so 3 are rending doing 2 each and 3 are normal doing .5 each for 7.5

I think I'll have to redo the Tyrants chart for rending, doing it this way he's even better than before


I'm still unsure how you got 2.82

After fixing the bone head mistake of not being able to roll a 1 on 2d6 and factoring in D6 wounds is on an 11 or 12 I get

27.27% chance of 0
54.54% chance of 2 wounds = 1.09 wounds
18.18% chance of 3.5 wounds = .64 wounds
72.72% chance of an additional 2 wounds = 1.45 wounds
Total = 3.18

*Edit I'll repost the chart up but doing rending / toxin the correct way makes the Tyrant even more insane.

His best loadouts are down to 25.5 points per wounds and 2 of them comfortably kill a raven in 1 turn with smite / shoot / charge

Smite
6/11*2+2/11*3.5 = 1.72 Damage

Smite 4+ Zoanthropes
6/11*4+2/11*5.5 = 3.18 Damage

Maleceptor
6/11*2+3/11*3.5 = 2.05

So you are right, I guess. Thanks for checking! This makes them even better.

Astmeister has done a bunch of good ones

I am also very surprised that the points per damage is in favor of the 2x Devourers Tyrant. that the points per damage is in favor of the 2x Devourers Tyrant.

 Astmeister wrote:
I am also very surprised that the points per damage is in favor of the 2x Devourers Tyrant. that the points per damage is in favor of the 2x Devourers Tyrant.

I think the numbers fool you a bit there.

The guns are just so damn abysmal that any points you spend on them is taking away efficiency from the melee

A Hive Tyrant shooting a Stormraven is

.33 wounds with 2 Devourers 14 pts

.5 wounds with 2 Deathspitters 20 pts

.67 wounds with Heavy Venom Cannon 30 pts

.88 wounds with Strangle Thorn Cannon 38 pts

I think the guns are still worth it, just not worth shooting at the Raven.

I honestly think the Rending Claws will be FAQ'd at some point, working them out correctly they literally do twice as many wounds as 1 pair of Scything Talons to a Storm Raven. Toxin Sacs close the gap a little but it's not much at all.

Why do they have the exact same profile as the Scything Talons except you exchange re-roll 1s to hit for ALL failed wounds re-roll. On top of all that you get -AP6 and flat 3 damage on rolls of 6. They're vastly superior to Boneswords and Scything Talons in every way. If they were slightly more expensive I'd still take them, but they're friggin free!?

I tested most things in the codex against T3 of various flavours in addition to the chart i'd already posted.

Now straight numbers Genestealers are the best followed by Devilgants but realistically you'd never want to charge your stealers into combat against Conscripts, Kroot or Pox Walkers and Devilgants need a delivery method which is a hidden cost. Warriors and Raveners are also decent if you shoot then melee but it's much the same case as the stealers, the enemy is tying up your expensive unit so it's a win for them.

However! Coming in at 4th place overall when facing GEQ are Sky-Slashers / Rippers with Spinemaws. Not only are they fairly decent at it, they're quick with 12'' move or DS. They don't lose effectiveness as quick as gants via their 3 wounds and most importantly they're cheap! You couldn't care less if they got stuck in combat! Also while large masses of Hormagaunts may struggle to all get within range to actually attack, Rippers have large bases, realistically you're almost always getting the full squad into the fight phase from the get go. I only own 6 Sky-Slasher swarms but I'm definitely giving them a go. Good chance I'll be facing Conscripts or Kroot in my next match

Your Ripper idea seems interesting. Why not?
Also your clarifications on the shooting weapons make sense.

I think they just did not recognize that a Hive Tyrant can take Rending Claws at all. They were just considering the Broodlord for this weapon.
So I am pretty sure that the HT will lose the option of RC completely.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am also quite sure at the moment that you miscalculated the Flyrant with 4x Scy Tals and Tox Sacs. Do not forget that he has 5 A with them +1 with the Tail and can reroll 1s to hit.

Scy Tals
5*(5/6+1/6*5/6)*(1/6*5/6*3+1/6*4) = 5.27 wounds

Tail
5/6*(1/6*1/3*2+1/6*1/3*3) = 0.23 wounds

Smite
as before 1.72 wounds

total
7.22 wounds

That seems pretty scary.

I get the same for the tail and smite.

For the talons I'm getting

5 attacks hitting at 97.2% (2+ re-rollable)

4.86 hits at 33.33% (STR 6 vs T7 = 5+)

1.62 wounds

Now half of that are 5+ and half are 6+. Half = D3 & Half = D3 + 1

.81 vs 83.3% chance of failure (3+ save vs -3 AP = 6+ save)

.68 wounds

.68 wounds * D3 (average of 2) = 1.35 unsaved wounds
.68 wounds * D3 + 1 (average of 2 + TS) = 2.03 wounds

3.38 wounds

Reading your formula, are you putting it as 3 wounds flat for the Scy Tals?

Hey guys if anyone is interested in writing a short unit review, it would be cool to have all of the units filled out in the OP. So if you'd like to have your 2 cents put into the OP, just PM Lance and we'll fill out the rest of the units!

Of course, all of the comments already made are open for discussion. Perhaps we should try and implement a grading system for how good the units are?

Zande4 wrote:I get the same for the tail and smite.

For the talons I'm getting

5 attacks hitting at 97.2% (2+ re-rollable)

4.86 hits at 33.33% (STR 6 vs T7 = 5+)

1.62 wounds

Now half of that are 5+ and half are 6+. Half = D3 & Half = D3 + 1

.81 vs 83.3% chance of failure (3+ save vs -3 AP = 6+ save)

.68 wounds

.68 wounds * D3 (average of 2) = 1.35 unsaved wounds
.68 wounds * D3 + 1 (average of 2 + TS) = 2.03 wounds

3.38 wounds

Reading your formula, are you putting it as 3 wounds flat for the Scy Tals?

Scything Talons are actually doing a flat 3 Damage. :-D

luke1705 wrote:Hey guys if anyone is interested in writing a short unit review, it would be cool to have all of the units filled out in the OP. So if you'd like to have your 2 cents put into the OP, just PM Lance and we'll fill out the rest of the units!

Of course, all of the comments already made are open for discussion. Perhaps we should try and implement a grading system for how good the units are?

I already sent you a PM.

I hope by "you" you mean Lance. Mostly because he's the one who updates the OP but also because I didn't get a PM from you

Yes sorry. I wrote to Lance... I hope. ;-)

Ah they are too, I've been playing them worse this whole time lol

Been using Biovores + a Harpy to drop spore mines around a unit, then charge it with the harpy. Then all the spore mines get a free 4" charge with no overwatch.

Not sure if that's the correct way to do that, but it's been working as a way to plop mortal wounds onto enemy anti-heavy tank like destroyers and predators.

If the unit doesn't die and remains in combat, the Harpy must fly away, so you can fly back over the unit and drop more mines down.

With spore mines I've been charging them one model at a time which gives opponent more chances to overwatch, but I think that's correct.

The only problem is mines can't charge the turn theyre created with those abilities. The y make a great screen but the timing of that doesnt work so well

Haven't had a chance to play, but I've always loved my Warrior heavy lists. Is this viable these days? My usual fun involves Warriors, Canifexes, and I just want the sexiness of the Exocrine.

I run a bit more shooty than most, because I face Guard and Marines a LOT, and need to do damage before I get into CC.

Love my Biovores. Still going to use them.

I'm one of those people that actually used Pyrovores before. Dropped in a pod RIGHT NEXT to someone.

I'm not going to Trygon/Mawloc with Genestealer tunnel people. Ain't my style.

So what do you guys think? Can I actually win games NOT using Tervigon spam, or tunnel strikes?

 Mattlov wrote:
Haven't had a chance to play, but I've always loved my Warrior heavy lists. Is this viable these days? My usual fun involves Warriors, Canifexes, and I just want the sexiness of the Exocrine.

I run a bit more shooty than most, because I face Guard and Marines a LOT, and need to do damage before I get into CC.

Love my Biovores. Still going to use them.

I'm one of those people that actually used Pyrovores before. Dropped in a pod RIGHT NEXT to someone.

I'm not going to Trygon/Mawloc with Genestealer tunnel people. Ain't my style.

So what do you guys think? Can I actually win games NOT using Tervigon spam, or tunnel strikes?

You're going to have a tough time outshooting guard, but the Pyrovore Pod strat is WAY better than it used to be. Biovores are different than they used to be but still good. Warriors are a ton more viable and more durable than they used to be.

Against marines, I think you'll probably do pretty well as long as your list can deal with vehicles. And I don't mean "I've got 3 venom cannons so I can totally kill a land raider" kind of dealing with vehicles. What if you run into 3 tanks? How do you plan on killing them?

If you can answer that, I think Tyranids cover everything else really well in spades.

Is the wording for the Malanthrope correct on it's datasheet that it only protects 'models' within 3''?
the venomthropes protect infantry UNITS within 3''

 benlac wrote:
Is the wording for the Malanthrope correct on it's datasheet that it only protects 'models' within 3''?
the venomthropes protect infantry UNITS within 3''

To be fair, we do not know.

1. What is odd is that the Malanthrope refers to models, not units. This could be interpreted to aply to mostly singel unit models of units who are hogging the malenthrope like a christmas tree.

2. It does say models, and not infantery spesificly. That it allows MC's to get the protection is not unlikly since it itself is an MC.

3. Probably that is the rule on the venomthropes it is refering to.

RAW or try to guestimate on the RAI. I am stil gonne parkingsitt my tervigon with it, and take wounds on the gaunts.

 benlac wrote:
Is the wording for the Malanthrope correct on it's datasheet that it only protects 'models' within 3''?
the venomthropes protect infantry UNITS within 3''

This was mentioned by Reece as a typo and I believe him. Furthermore, there is no mechanic for targeting models, so it either means nothing or it means units. Don't be too surprised when this is errata'd in the upcoming FAQ

In the FAQ, it was specified that the rule that protect characters from shooting also protect units with characters, so even by RAW the malanthrope should protect the whole unit.

A quite note on Overwatch.

Overwatch shots hit on a 6, ignoring all modifiers.

So, it doesn't matter about a Lictor, the Horror, or the presence of a Venomthrope, a 6 hits, regardless. It's a unique situation.

On the positive side, it also means that +1 modifiers to attack rolls are also discounted. Only 6s hit.

Wakshaani wrote:
A quite note on Overwatch.

Overwatch shots hit on a 6, ignoring all modifiers.

So, it doesn't matter about a Lictor, the Horror, or the presence of a Venomthrope, a 6 hits, regardless. It's a unique situation.

On the positive side, it also means that +1 modifiers to attack rolls are also discounted. Only 6s hit.

 Zande4 wrote:


6 -1 = 7? Or is a 6 always a hit?

A 6 is always a hit in Overwatch. If you cast Horror on something that hits on a 4+ and it attempts to shoot a Malanthroped Lictor it hits on a 7, so it can never hit.

Fun fact, space marines affected by The Horror can't shoot the Deathleaper if he's buffed by Venom/Malanthropes or penalised for Moving + Heavy

I think the most modifiers would be

-1 for moving with Heavy Weapons
-3 for Night Fighting 36" away
-1 for Venomthrope / Malanthrope
-1 for the Horror
-2 for The Deathleaper

Would make Farsight using the 5th Marker light buff hit on 9+

Yeah that's what I said, the other stuff wasn't to do with OW

So lets assume Hive Tyrant rending claws are free (/ alot cheaper than the scything talons) depending on how you group the point costs.)

Are the Sy-tals worth it for the re-roll 1's to hit and +1A?

I know it's a lot of points but it is a whole extra attack (which hits 97% of the time, when the tyrant isn't tired). Also a flat 3 damage, which I think is really underestimated.

Thoughts / alternative load outs (for the same or less points) ?

You loose the gun and also it is not much better from damage. I think this will just become valid, when the RC will not be allowed on a Tyrant.

Lets go with the rules as they are, please. I fully get that this may change, it may seem obvious and in error.

But at the end of the day it isn't functionally broken and it will have an impact on games and list building.

So would anyone like to comment on the cost/benefit of Hive Tyrant Sytals vs. Rending claws?

I actually doubt it'll change and I don't think it's a typo. It's cheaper and grants re-rolls of to wound, which is more statistically beneficial but +1 attack does grant re-rolls of 1, and 3 flat damage is absolutely better than d3.

On the whole, I don't think it's worth 31 more points for the Scytals, but I do think that if I were using a tyrant purely for melee, I would still go RC + ST

Well, the RC is better than the SC against T7+ targets. Even if you take 2 pairs of SC.
But the SC perform good at lower T. You have to also factor in that targets with T6- have often not so many wounds, so the wounds will be more important than the damage.
In this case the Scy Tals are worse than RC, except against T3- targets.

2x SC vs T3- / 3+ Save
3.38 wounds - 10.12 Damage

RC vs T3- / 3+ Save
2.81 wounds - 6.27 Damage

2x SC vs T5- / 3+ Save
2.7 wounds - 8.1 Damage

RC vs T5- / 3+ Save
2.6 wounds - 5.93 Damage

2x SC vs T6 / 3+ Save
2.02 wounds - 6.07 Damage

RC vs T6 / 3+ Save
2.22 wounds - 5.28 Damage

2x SC vs T7+ / 3+ Save
1.35 wounds - 4.05 Damage

RC vs T7+ / 3+ Save
1.7 wounds - 4.32 Damage


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also the 2x SC even cost 41 points!

So what is a good single weapon = / less than the dual-Sy-tals... that can pair with the rending claws?

Re-roll 1's to hit are great with a 2+ to-hit model?

I'm thinking think with regards to a winged hive tyrant, so perhaps a ranged weapons as either Onslaught can be used or wing-enhanced movement is less of an issue. Pew pew

Now that all the ATC lists are up, I figure I'll post my list for the event this weekend.

Patriarch
Primus
20 Purestrains
18 Purestrains
18 Purestrains

Broodlord
Magus
29 Gants (10 Devourers)
3 rippers
3 rippers

Magus
Exocrine
Exocrine
Exocrine

Feel pretty good about this one in practice, here's hoping it does alright this weekend!

 jifel wrote:
Now that all the ATC lists are up, I figure I'll post my list for the event this weekend.

Patriarch
Primus
20 Purestrains
18 Purestrains
18 Purestrains

Broodlord
Magus
29 Gants (10 Devourers)
3 rippers
3 rippers

Magus
Exocrine
Exocrine
Exocrine

Feel pretty good about this one in practice, here's hoping it does alright this weekend!

Looks nice! If you can, I'd like to hear how it does.

 jifel wrote:
Now that all the ATC lists are up, I figure I'll post my list for the event this weekend.

Patriarch
Primus
20 Purestrains
18 Purestrains
18 Purestrains

Broodlord
Magus
29 Gants (10 Devourers)
3 rippers
3 rippers

Magus
Exocrine
Exocrine
Exocrine

Feel pretty good about this one in practice, here's hoping it does alright this weekend!

No Babysitters for the Exocrines? I assume that the Broodlord is advancing with the Gants? I am wondering if the targeting issues (closest target) are no problem for your list...

What team are you playing on Jifel?

 jifel wrote:
Now that all the ATC lists are up, I figure I'll post my list for the event this weekend.

Spoiler:

Patriarch
Primus
20 Purestrains
18 Purestrains
18 Purestrains

Broodlord
Magus
29 Gants (10 Devourers)
3 rippers
3 rippers

Magus
Exocrine
Exocrine
Exocrine

Feel pretty good about this one in practice, here's hoping it does alright this weekend!

Random Broodlord for the Psychic power? His things don't buff your purestrains, not even the synapse so I'm just curious why you wouldn't go for the redundancy with 60 stealers of having two patriarchs. Sniping one is easy, two is quite the hassle and the magus is only good for powers as far as I've seen. Why not have dropped him for the patriarch, gain the 91 ish points of the magus and difference in brood/patriarch points and get... well anything. A malanthrope is a better babysitter, maybe broodlord is the cheapest HF psyker... but you could just go for the Zoans.

I built a similar list to this for a smaller tourney so I'm really really curious on your thinking behind this in case I'm missing something myself.Would love to pick your brain on those choices. The horror is good but I'm really thinking Iconwards are better for the catalyst effect because its AoE and not single target (Also you could get 3 iconwards for the price of a broodlord)

Requiet wrote:

 jifel wrote:
Now that all the ATC lists are up, I figure I'll post my list for the event this weekend.

Spoiler:

Patriarch
Primus
20 Purestrains
18 Purestrains
18 Purestrains

Broodlord
Magus
29 Gants (10 Devourers)
3 rippers
3 rippers

Magus
Exocrine
Exocrine
Exocrine

Feel pretty good about this one in practice, here's hoping it does alright this weekend!

Random Broodlord for the Psychic power? His things don't buff your purestrains, not even the synapse so I'm just curious why you wouldn't go for the redundancy with 60 stealers of having two patriarchs. Sniping one is easy, two is quite the hassle and the magus is only good for powers as far as I've seen. Why not have dropped him for the patriarch, gain the 91 ish points of the magus and difference in brood/patriarch points and get... well anything. A malanthrope is a better babysitter, maybe broodlord is the cheapest HF psyker... but you could just go for the Zoans.

I built a similar list to this for a smaller tourney so I'm really really curious on your thinking behind this in case I'm missing something myself.Would love to pick your brain on those choices. The horror is good but I'm really thinking Iconwards are better for the catalyst effect because its AoE and not single target (Also you could get 3 iconwards for the price of a broodlord)

My reasoning on the broodlord is that he is a psyker and can't be sniped. The Zoeys die too fast for me. The gants usually dont advance out of synapse range and the Broodlord hangs around midfield to buff the Exos while its needed. Sadly FW is not allowed at this event, otherwise a Malanthrope surely would have been in there instead. The Nid powers are too good to not have a psyker, and he was the only one who wouldnt be shot to hell sadly. And since the detachment has to be all GSC to ambush, I didnt want to have a Patriarch not ambushing but I'm already using both HQ slots in my Vanguard detachment. Snipers would be no bueno for me, but I also have a pretty good ability to reach out and touch my opponent, I've been able to eliminate snipers very quickly so far. Even then, I know I dont want them so with the team pairings system of ATC I should be able to avoid them.

And luke, I'm playing on Orlando Hereticus.

Razerous wrote:
So what is a good single weapon = / less than the dual-Sy-tals... that can pair with the rending claws?

Re-roll 1's to hit are great with a 2+ to-hit model?

I'm thinking think with regards to a winged hive tyrant, so perhaps a ranged weapons as either Onslaught can be used or wing-enhanced movement is less of an issue. Pew pew

The re-roll 1s only effects the Scy Tals though, not the rending claws. Regardless if you have both.

I think 2 Deathspitters and Rending Claws are the best option TAC for points per wounds effectiveness. As Astmeister said the Claws perform worse against T3 im raw damage (they out perform point per wound) however multi-wound T3 models are pretty rare. Non-Nurgle Heralds, Non-Astartes Imperium characters are about it and the claws put enough wounds on to them anyway.

I don't think I'd ever take 2 Sets of Scy Tals. Rending Claws + any gun are cheaper and put out more wounds on almost anything

I still refuse to take the rending claws, for the same reason i don't take GSC stealers. They are obvious mistakes waiting to be corrected.

Spoletta wrote:
I still refuse to take the rending claws, for the same reason i don't take GSC stealers. They are obvious mistakes waiting to be corrected.

Well since flyrants have only one free set of arms, I think its easy to argue that either the feet constitute scytals, or the wings constitute rending claws. I submitted the RC question to the FaQ peeps the day the index came out, and unlike a lot of my other Qs that were addressed, it was not. So personally I am going to be using RCs until otherwise stated, but won't be remodelling anything (aside from removing devourers...)

 Zande4 wrote:

Razerous wrote:
So what is a good single weapon = / less than the dual-Sy-tals... that can pair with the rending claws?

Re-roll 1's to hit are great with a 2+ to-hit model?

I'm thinking think with regards to a winged hive tyrant, so perhaps a ranged weapons as either Onslaught can be used or wing-enhanced movement is less of an issue. Pew pew

The re-roll 1s only effects the Scy Tals though, not the rending claws. Regardless if you have both.

I think 2 Deathspitters and Rending Claws are the best option TAC for points per wounds effectiveness. As Astmeister said the Claws perform worse against T3 im raw damage (they out perform point per wound) however multi-wound T3 models are pretty rare. Non-Nurgle Heralds, Non-Astartes Imperium characters are about it and the claws put enough wounds on to them anyway.

I don't think I'd ever take 2 Sets of Scy Tals. Rending Claws + any gun are cheaper and put out more wounds on almost anything

Nice - thank you for the correction.

Fair point - i was thinking the same too.

How much different do the death spitters look compared to the twin devs?

Razerous wrote:


Fair point - i was thinking the same too.

How much different do the death spitters look compared to the twin devs?

Its a longer nose, more like a rifle then the sponge type look of the devourers. I made some really awesome devs into a mouth back in the day and had all of my Mcs lol that, I hate to change that but I may just model the deathspitter sticking out of that :/


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jifel wrote:

Requiet wrote:

 jifel wrote:
Now that all the ATC lists are up, I figure I'll post my list for the event this weekend.

Spoiler:

Patriarch
Primus
20 Purestrains
18 Purestrains
18 Purestrains

Broodlord
Magus
29 Gants (10 Devourers)
3 rippers
3 rippers

Magus
Exocrine
Exocrine
Exocrine

Feel pretty good about this one in practice, here's hoping it does alright this weekend!

Random Broodlord for the Psychic power? His things don't buff your purestrains, not even the synapse so I'm just curious why you wouldn't go for the redundancy with 60 stealers of having two patriarchs. Sniping one is easy, two is quite the hassle and the magus is only good for powers as far as I've seen. Why not have dropped him for the patriarch, gain the 91 ish points of the magus and difference in brood/patriarch points and get... well anything. A malanthrope is a better babysitter, maybe broodlord is the cheapest HF psyker... but you could just go for the Zoans.

I built a similar list to this for a smaller tourney so I'm really really curious on your thinking behind this in case I'm missing something myself.Would love to pick your brain on those choices. The horror is good but I'm really thinking Iconwards are better for the catalyst effect because its AoE and not single target (Also you could get 3 iconwards for the price of a broodlord)

My reasoning on the broodlord is that he is a psyker and can't be sniped. The Zoeys die too fast for me. The gants usually dont advance out of synapse range and the Broodlord hangs around midfield to buff the Exos while its needed. Sadly FW is not allowed at this event, otherwise a Malanthrope surely would have been in there instead. The Nid powers are too good to not have a psyker, and he was the only one who wouldnt be shot to hell sadly. And since the detachment has to be all GSC to ambush, I didnt want to have a Patriarch not ambushing but I'm already using both HQ slots in my Vanguard detachment. Snipers would be no bueno for me, but I also have a pretty good ability to reach out and touch my opponent, I've been able to eliminate snipers very quickly so far. Even then, I know I dont want them so with the team pairings system of ATC I should be able to avoid them.

And luke, I'm playing on Orlando Hereticus.

Thanks it was what I assumed (Nontarget psyker) just hurts for the points as a babysitter. I really really wish tyranid primes could get powers. Its kind of asinine that those and Old one eye are about our only non-fw psyker HQs. If the Prime was a psyker you could fit him and the iconward together for the price of a brood :/ Only in my dreams xD

My dreams as well! But the Nid powers are so good that I couldn't let go of him. Tragic for points, but he brings options.

 jifel wrote:
My dreams as well! But the Nid powers are so good that I couldn't let go of him. Tragic for points, but he brings options.

Its almost like being a marine player and finally kitting out your Devastator sergeant to kick some butt xD

Spoletta wrote:
I still refuse to take the rending claws, for the same reason i don't take GSC stealers. They are obvious mistakes waiting to be corrected.

Yeah, I'm not going to go out and convert some claws anytime soon until the Tyranid codex comes out and confirms that the option is in. Until then, i'll probably proxy the claws,

 rollawaythestone wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
I still refuse to take the rending claws, for the same reason i don't take GSC stealers. They are obvious mistakes waiting to be corrected.

Yeah, I'm not going to go out and convert some claws anytime soon until the Tyranid codex comes out and confirms that the option is in. Until then, i'll probably proxy the claws,

Me too. Non-Tyranid players will not even know the difference anyway.

I'm pretty sure the RC on the Hive Tyrant isn't a mistake, the option has been there since forever. What probably is a mistake is the RC being free, but eventually all point costs will change anyway.

ForgeWorld FAQ is up.
XENOS Link: https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/40K_8th_ed_Update_Imperial_Armour_Index_Xenos_ver_1.0.pdf
Main page Link: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/15/new-and-updated-forge-world-faqs-july16gw-homepage-post-2/

win!

Tyran wrote:
I'm pretty sure the RC on the Hive Tyrant isn't a mistake, the option has been there since forever. What probably is a mistake is the RC being free, but eventually all point costs will change anyway.

I'm not sure it's a mistake at all. It's survived multiple rounds of FAQ's and undoubtedly this question was asked to GW.

It's not like they're going to put "yes they are supposed to be that many points" in the FAQ.

As far as GSC stealers being a mistake, it's certainly possible and I expect that they'll get errata'd back to being 12 points, or the wargear for GSC claws will become 2 like in the Nid codex.

But even at 12 points per model, they are insanely efficient. Would not take a single less stealer than I currently am, even at 12 ppm.

What's the tyranid answer to heavy armor? I have a friend that plays nids and I kinda crushed him with a list running Magnus and Hellforged Deimos Vindicators. His lascannon equivalents seemed very weak, hitting on a 4+ before I blasted them down a weapon profile. I imagine that a proper tyranids list is probably more melee oriented than what he was running?

Arachnofiend wrote:
What's the tyranid answer to heavy armor? I have a friend that plays nids and I kinda crushed him with a list running Magnus and Hellforged Deimos Vindicators. His lascannon equivalents seemed very weak, hitting on a 4+ before I blasted them down a weapon profile. I imagine that a proper tyranids list is probably more melee oriented than what he was running?

Tell him to get a hold of 40x Genestealers and a broodlord or two xD These things are the answer to anything that they can hit. But yeah shooting is not what we're good at. We're good at a blend of tactics, heavy target saturation, decent at psykers and awesome in melee (Can stand toe-to-toe with Adeptus Custodes with the nids at a 150 point disadvantage)

Arachnofiend wrote:
What's the tyranid answer to heavy armor? I have a friend that plays nids and I kinda crushed him with a list running Magnus and Hellforged Deimos Vindicators. His lascannon equivalents seemed very weak, hitting on a 4+ before I blasted them down a weapon profile. I imagine that a proper tyranids list is probably more melee oriented than what he was running?

Typically yes Nids assault very well and that supplements their subpar shooting. Exocrines are still a great shooting unit though.

Recently played a 1000 point game where I was experimenting with some neato theories.

My list:
Broodlord
3x Zoan
3x Hiveguard
Deathleaper
6x genes
26 x terms (20 devs 6 flesh)
Exocrine

His Imperial Fist List
Lysander:
15 spess muhreens
1 dreadnought asscan fist SB
3 Centurions 1 with missile, 2 las, 2 with 2x hurricanes and 2x HB
Razorback with HB

Played maelstorm objectives the one where you start with 6 and go down to 5 4 3 2 1 etc.

I wanted to try and experiment with shooty nids and I would definitely speak to their efficacy. At least the hive guard and the exocrine.

6x genes with catalyst took his entire lists shooting before finally dying. Allowed my brood lord to turn 2 charge and blow up the razor back. Unfortunately he then got charged by lysander. Ultimately I didnt run enough stealers to really cause any significant threat. Regardless, I ran my termagants up the field as well. and basically got in a shooting match with the tacticals.

Deathleaper managed to get the primaris lieutenant and the dreadnought down to 1 would each before dying. Then the Zoans just smited both to death.

Termagants underperformed. It was kind of bizzare but multiple times I would roll 20+ shots, then hit like 15, then wound like 5 times lol. Then he made all his saves. They killed 2 tacticals before dying. Little dissapointing but the dice gods were against their survival.

Exocrine managed to wipe a Tac squad, and put some damage on the razorback and centurions. Got himself a nice piece of cover and great view of the battlefield and went to town. Did a ton of damage.

Hive guard knocked wounds off Lysander the dreadnought and a lot of wounds off the centurions. Overall i really liked the way they are almost always a threat around the board. They got a nice nook out of LOS and were able to deal a good amount of damage.

Game came down to three tacticals(one with HB)versus 1 zoanthrope. Game ended after turn 6. and the zoan on one wound. Overall it was a great game, fairly balanced. TBH I think I shouldve cut the brood and genes and gone with a shooty HT. I think I wouldve been able to win with that but sometimes I can't resist the good old broodlord genestealer wombo combo.

Olenos wrote:
Recently played a 1000 point game where I was experimenting with some neato theories.
Termagants underperformed. It was kind of bizzare but multiple times I would roll 20+ shots, then hit like 15, then wound like 5 times lol. Then he made all his saves. They killed 2 tacticals before dying. Little dissapointing but the dice gods were against their survival.

Is this that far from the averadge? 20 shots, 10 hit. 5 wound, 4 saves? 5 saves is not that far from the averadge roll.

 Niiai wrote:

Olenos wrote:
Recently played a 1000 point game where I was experimenting with some neato theories.
Termagants underperformed. It was kind of bizzare but multiple times I would roll 20+ shots, then hit like 15, then wound like 5 times lol. Then he made all his saves. They killed 2 tacticals before dying. Little dissapointing but the dice gods were against their survival.

Is this that far from the averadge? 20 shots, 10 hit. 5 wound, 4 saves? 5 saves is not that far from the averadge roll.

It's about a 40% likelihood that he loses no marines. Gants really aren't known for their amazing firepower.

Actually if you remember from the mathhammer averadge gaunt's come out on topp of the shooting list. Stationary Tyranifex coming in second and dakkafexes comes in 3rd.

I would say gaunts has an amazing fire power, being our best unit for shooting. If they are not good enough, then perhaps we should look to the mellee phase to find our wounds.

 Niiai wrote:
Actually if you remember from the mathhammer averadge gaunt's come out on topp of the shooting list. Stationary Tyranifex coming in second and dakkafexes comes in 3rd.

I would say gaunts has an amazing fire power, being our best unit for shooting. If they are not good enough, then perhaps we should look to the mellee phase to find our wounds.

Obviously assault is our strength. Pound for pound they do come out looking good mathematically, but good luck getting them into range before someone sends a stiff breeze their way and they fall over and die. You could use things like a Trygon tunnel, but that increases the cost of your "gun platform" dramatically (by like 180 points)

 luke1705 wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
Actually if you remember from the mathhammer averadge gaunt's come out on topp of the shooting list. Stationary Tyranifex coming in second and dakkafexes comes in 3rd.

I would say gaunts has an amazing fire power, being our best unit for shooting. If they are not good enough, then perhaps we should look to the mellee phase to find our wounds.

Obviously assault is our strength. Pound for pound they do come out looking good mathematically, but good luck getting them into range before someone sends a stiff breeze their way and they fall over and die. You could use things like a Trygon tunnel, but that increases the cost of your "gun platform" dramatically (by like 180 points)

Yeah I think a Trygon Tunnel wouldve helped But I Couldnt fit that in within 1k points. The most amount of gants that in range at any one time was like a dozen. Juxtapose that with a trygon tunnel and I think that they could potentially be viable. Maybe. The math says 8.75 dead, which combined with morale is probably a unit wipe. I will take that any day of the week. If a tac squad is about 175 points, you just wiped that and they now have 42 wounds in their deployment zone to deal with.

My friend plays mostly tyranids so i used this thread for my "research purposes".

Thanks for all the good content, i`ll keep on stalking - to be fair i`ll give him some of the good advice.

Sadly he doesn`t like gene stealers (and biovores), i would love to fight them with my boyz and i think they would add a good punch.
With this exceptions he plays all the good stuff this thread is talking about.

(Fly)rant, swarmlord, gaunts, Tervigon, Trygon, Hiveguard, Cyte, Warriors, Exocrine

Any basic tipps you would give him vs greenskins?
(Good mix of dakka, mech and CC, no horde spam.)

 Grotrebel wrote:
My friend plays mostly tyranids so i used this thread for my "research purposes".

Thanks for all the good content, i`ll keep on stalking - to be fair i`ll give him some of the good advice.

Sadly he doesn`t like gene stealers (and biovores), i would love to fight them with my boyz and i think they would add a good punch.
With this exceptions he plays all the good stuff this thread is talking about.

(Fly)rant, swarmlord, gaunts, Tervigon, Trygon, Hiveguard, Cyte, Warriors, Exocrine

Any basic tipps you would give him vs greenskins?
(Good mix of dakka, mech and CC, no horde spam.)

If your friend likes the swarmlord he can catapult any dedicated CC unit into CC, not just genestealers. Or is he only shooty nids? I would recomend ravagers.

Raveners are great cc units also

Yeah he is great to bring another unit (or himself) into CC.
Think he's gonna put him in the Cyte mostly which brings him, maybe Flyrant, the Trygon and 1 unit of gaunts in front of my army while the rest advances for wave 2 or gives support fire.
2/3 of his army tend to CC but he has some units like the warriors that are equipped for both.

Forgot about his raveners but he has them as well and they add some pressure to his list.

The funny thing is he thinks his nids are not that good but I certainly disagree.

Overall i love the new tyranids they look pretty tough and there are like no models that are totally unplayable.
Regret selling my nids some time ago. :(

They have many possibilities for a critical first strike which is a huge thing in 8th edition.
Seen many games and battle reports where one opponent has been tabled after the first 2-4 rounds.


Btw what is your opinion on the winged warriors?
Seems to me for most people they are to expensive though they can hit really hard and might get not enough attention when you bring enough stuff to put the enemy under pressure.

I love the idea of an ultrafast attack swarm where 1/2 deploys in reserve and almost everything else are fast units which brings almost your whole army in the enemys deployment zone by turn 1-2.

 Grotrebel wrote:


The funny thing is he thinks his nids are not that good but I certainly disagree.

Nids can be very one-dimensional if you build them to be all-out assault. They are (imo) the best army at pure assault in the game, but pure assault has weaknesses. Even if our assault units have fly (RC shrikes are actually amazing for this), however, they can't tear through bubble wrap if the opponent places his screening units appropriately. So you have to bring some guns, and if you don't have enough of or any at all, that'll definitely be your undoing.

 Grotrebel wrote:


Btw what is your opinion on the winged warriors?
Seems to me for most people they are to expensive though they can hit really hard and might get not enough attention when you bring enough stuff to put the enemy under pressure.

They are expensive but there is no better unit, pound for pound, if you want to assault enemy flyers. They're fast, much more durable than they used to be, synapse and are going to be underestimated even by a good opponent. Great sleeper unit, although when focused down appropriately, their durability is still a little concerning. I might be more inclined to pay more for a number of primes unless you're running a fair amount of gargoyles with the shrikes.

 Grotrebel wrote:


I love the idea of an ultrafast attack swarm where 1/2 deploys in reserve and almost everything else are fast units which brings almost your whole army in the enemys deployment zone by turn 1-2.

Jy2, a prominent Tyranids player for many years, had an army similar to this in 6th and I think it's one of the best ways to play Nids. Called it MTO, or Maximum Threat Overload. Tyranids can do this better than almost any other army (especially if you coordinate with GSC) and it's very difficult for almost any army to deal with.

Came in 3rd at a very competitive 14 player tournament yesterday with the following list. It should be said that my wife and I met in the 2nd round, where her list is functionally a hard-counter to mine (Sisters + Imperial Soup with 8 Heavy Flamers, and 16 regulars Flamers = not-so good for Genestealer spam).

My wins were incredibly decisive, but the lessons were that we used the new ITC missions with Maelstrom 2nd-ary, and I did feel less perfectly tuned than I thought. In book missions this list would've rolled the room even more easily, but the issue I faced was that one a unit of Genestealers eats its target, they tend to get removed handily in the next shooting phase. They just aren't objective holders, and without shooting, would frequently spend the rest of a game off somewhere out of the principle action.

They ALWAYS traded their lives for notably more points in return, so good on them, but Maelstrom really prefers bodies that last longer than said trade.

2000pts

Tyranid Battalion
Swarmlord
Malanthrope

3x Ripper Swarm
25x Termagants
27x Hormagaunts w/Adrenals

Trygon Prime w/Adrenals
Tyrannocyte with Barbed Strangers

2x Biovores

GSC Vanguard Detachment
Primarch w/2x Familiars
20 Genestealers
11 Genestealers
11 Genestealers

Astra Militarum Auxillery Detachment
3x Heavy Quad Mortar Batteries

Everything contributed, and I would've been playing for 1st or 2nd, if not for drawing a tough tie against my wife, as I said.

The only list in the room I would've dreaded playing against was a Storm Raven spam, which might've tabled me, although it would've struggled with the Maelstrom Missions, thus ending that lists reign of terror. The dude met his own hard counter 1st round though against a Guilliman list with several Deredeo Dreadnaughts which really give Storm Ravens fits (they're still hitting Flyers on 3+ re-rolling)

DoggieDoo wrote:
Pages 18 and 83 Stone Crusher Carnifex
– Bio-flail
Change the abilities text to read:
‘Each time the bearer fights, one (and only one) of its
attacks can be made with this weapon. When the bearer
fights with this weapon, make a number of hit rolls
against one target unit equal to the number of models
that the target unit has within 2" of the bearer.’

Hmmm. Guess thats alright.

How do people feel about this? Wonder how many that translates to if you throw a Fex at a horde

Has anyone played with Spore Mines? The tactical uses of these things seem more impressive than ever. Being able to decide when and where they come in without scatter seems really powerful. Granted, it's easier for a unit to split-fire and kill them with lasguns or something, but with no scatter it is easy to put them down in line-of-sight blocking cover, or plop them down to threaten whatever you want. I was also thinking about the possibility of sitting them in your line - protecting valuable targets from assault. The blow up within 3" of an enemy in the charge phase, so with clever positioning you can deter opponents from wanting to get near them in a charge. Any more thoughts on their uses?

 rollawaythestone wrote:
Has anyone played with Spore Mines? The tactical uses of these things seem more impressive than ever. Being able to decide when and where they come in without scatter seems really powerful. Granted, it's easier for a unit to split-fire and kill them with lasguns or something, but with no scatter it is easy to put them down in line-of-sight blocking cover, or plop them down to threaten whatever you want. I was also thinking about the possibility of sitting them in your line - protecting valuable targets from assault. The blow up within 3" of an enemy in the charge phase, so with clever positioning you can deter opponents from wanting to get near them in a charge. Any more thoughts on their uses?

I've had a couple games where someone will get cheeky and split-fire ONE guy into it, and miss... now having to deal with it.

They're good, and your opponent will always feel bad putting any amount of fire into them, but I definitely don't feel as passionately about them today as I did the day 8th Edition dropped.

Yeah I dont think I would load up on them, but a unit here or there has it's tactical uses that could really be exploited by a clever general. I want to try a unit or two in my next couple games to see whether they are useful. They are a bit pricey now - 3 for 30pts, so the question will be whether they are worth it for the tactical use over 30pts of Rippers.

The most fun I have had is using 27 Biovores as someone mentioned earlier in the thread. I proxied them up and played a game with them. It was hilarious vs a Razorback spam list. I seized on him, moved on all the biovores, then shot all of them at the Razorbacks. I then used all the misses to surround his line of Razorbacks with spore mines. He was unable to move them and had waste his shooting on them. I continued to pin them for the entire game. It was humorous to watch.

I'm just getting back into the game and thinking about running a list like this:

Battalion Detachment

Hive Tyrant with Wings - 195
-2x Monstrous Rending Claws, Two Deathspitters with Slimer Maggots, Toxin Sacs

Broodlord - 162

20 Genestealers - 240
20 Genestealers - 240
20 Genestealers - 240
15 Genestealers - 180

10 Termagants - 40
10 Termagants - 40

3 Zoanthropes - 120

Trygon, AG - 180
Trygon, AG - 180
Trygon, AG - 180

1997


Deep striking 3 squads of genestealers and 3 trygons turn 1 right in front of the enemy face, followed up by a fourth squad supported by a broodlord the next turn. The flyrant goes after fliers or squishy evasive targets, and the zoanthropes and gants capture objectives on my side of the map, since the opponent is going to be too busy dealing with genestealers and trygons to clean them up.

Is this a decent plan, or will it play out significantly worse than this in practice? I haven't played 40k in 7 years, so my theorycrafting is quite rusty.

Fragile wrote:The most fun I have had is using 27 Biovores as someone mentioned earlier in the thread. I proxied them up and played a game with them. It was hilarious vs a Razorback spam list. I seized on him, moved on all the biovores, then shot all of them at the Razorbacks. I then used all the misses to surround his line of Razorbacks with spore mines. He was unable to move them and had waste his shooting on them. I continued to pin them for the entire game. It was humorous to watch.

I'am painting my 24 biovores right now! Really looking forward to my first local tournament...

Zyrnak wrote:I'm just getting back into the game and thinking about running a list like this:

Battalion Detachment

Hive Tyrant with Wings - 195
-2x Monstrous Rending Claws, Two Deathspitters with Slimer Maggots, Toxin Sacs

Broodlord - 162

20 Genestealers - 240
20 Genestealers - 240
20 Genestealers - 240
15 Genestealers - 180

10 Termagants - 40
10 Termagants - 40

3 Zoanthropes - 120

Trygon, AG - 180
Trygon, AG - 180
Trygon, AG - 180

1997


Deep striking 3 squads of genestealers and 3 trygons turn 1 right in front of the enemy face, followed up by a fourth squad supported by a broodlord the next turn. The flyrant goes after fliers or squishy evasive targets, and the zoanthropes and gants capture objectives on my side of the map, since the opponent is going to be too busy dealing with genestealers and trygons to clean them up.

Is this a decent plan, or will it play out significantly worse than this in practice? I haven't played 40k in 7 years, so my theorycrafting is quite rusty.

Like any other 'right in your face' army you suffer from the enemies 'get of my lawn' units.

Astra Militarum uses 2/3 scout sentinels to scout forward and you basically 'pop up' at your own deployment edge. Also, if the enemy goes first and got his own deep strike units it deep strikes mid field forcing your trygons to deploy another 9 inch away. From that point on you just got to walk towards the enemy gunline and get shot to pieces. Your genestealer horde can still win the mission but against a decent armylist you will bite the dust after a few rounds.

If you want this kind of armylist I would suggest to upgrade one of your trygons to a 'Prime' because after you drop, that hive tyrant is your only synapse creature until the broodlord catches up. No synapse could give a smart player the opportunity to just move forward a rhino and all your trygons and genestealers are forced to assault the closest unit.

I would also switch one genestealer unit with 20 guants including 10 devourer upgrade. This frees up points for other stuff..

Zyrnak wrote:
I'm just getting back into the game and thinking about running a list like this:

Battalion Detachment

Spoiler:

Hive Tyrant with Wings - 195
-2x Monstrous Rending Claws, Two Deathspitters with Slimer Maggots, Toxin Sacs

Broodlord - 162

20 Genestealers - 240
20 Genestealers - 240
20 Genestealers - 240
15 Genestealers - 180

10 Termagants - 40
10 Termagants - 40

3 Zoanthropes - 120

Trygon, AG - 180
Trygon, AG - 180
Trygon, AG - 180

1997

Deep striking 3 squads of genestealers and 3 trygons turn 1 right in front of the enemy face, followed up by a fourth squad supported by a broodlord the next turn. The flyrant goes after fliers or squishy evasive targets, and the zoanthropes and gants capture objectives on my side of the map, since the opponent is going to be too busy dealing with genestealers and trygons to clean them up.

Is this a decent plan, or will it play out significantly worse than this in practice? I haven't played 40k in 7 years, so my theorycrafting is quite rusty.

Unless you really want to the broodlord for a certain psychic power the first thing you should do is switch all of those stealers to purestrains and the broodlord to a patriarch (Although I guess synapse is also a thing but with your army almost entire genestealers not much of a thing. If you do this switch you save 162 (Literally the price of a broodlord)

Here are some suggestions I'd make:
Hive Tyrant - Adrenal Glands over toxin sacs easily. Getting into combat is way more important than the statistical maybe one extra wound per fight. Or both but Adrenal is the superior upgrade hands down.
Zoans - Add a nuerothrope and bring the model count up to 4. 5 is the sweet spot I've been experiencing but even at 4 until they knock off one model it's going to be a gak-show watching what they fire at your zoans especially if you've cast catalyst on them. The neuro also gives you a small amount of extra survivability if they hadn't killed a zoan and you want to pump him back up to full health.
Trygons - I actually take a prime just because I like the synapse/shadow and also because bio-static rattle gives him an extra phase of attacks. Most may not make it but it makes him a completely different beastie than just the punchy trygons.
Gants - Min squads are not even good screening units. Maybe you'll use them for some back field objectives but they'll get murdered by any strong breeze that blows backfield. I'd consider using some of the 162 points youre saving by switch to geiko and increase at least one squad to a 30 blob.

New List I'd offer:




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Correctioin, I imagine you're taking the Genestealers along the trygon pony ride? My new list means youd be taking your gants because GSC purestrains arent troops but the amount of upgrades you get by switching... Not sure. I've had literally zero problem walking my stealers up the board and with the AoE 6+FNP and maybe a lucky catalyst here or there it really is a mess. I'd really say give it a try. The trygons are going to be great distraction carnifexes that are only going to help your stealers get up the board and if youre smart about it you can even use youre very tiny squads of gants to screen those trygons until the second turn (Though unlikely since you need an opening to attempt the charge)

If you're taking GSC Stealers, you don't want trygons unless you have other units to taxi like hormagants.

And you should be taking GSC Stealers

 SHUPPET wrote:

DoggieDoo wrote:
Pages 18 and 83 Stone Crusher Carnifex
– Bio-flail
Change the abilities text to read:
‘Each time the bearer fights, one (and only one) of its
attacks can be made with this weapon. When the bearer
fights with this weapon, make a number of hit rolls
against one target unit equal to the number of models
that the target unit has within 2" of the bearer.’

Hmmm. Guess thats alright.

How do people feel about this? Wonder how many that translates to if you throw a Fex at a horde

just quoting myself to restate, would love to see some discussion on this unit

I'll bite. I saw some discsion on one of the threads with these with old one eye would be good.

It is very strong. It is a couple of points more then a regular carnifex and for that you get the big swing ball witch just dishes out damage vs many miodels. also descent Ap. The claws are very good, the only source of 2x withouth the-1 to hit. That is very strong. And you get both one one model.

So unless you are just going for cheapest T6 wounds (mawlock and fexeS) possible there is suck a small price to upgrade it to a stone crusher.

But as many have pointed out, Shuppet not least, you really want your fexes to be dakka. This little gem can onlu grav the 12" plasma shot. Not very good.

RIP Screamer Killer

 Niiai wrote:
I'll bite. I saw some discsion on one of the threads with these with old one eye would be good.

It is very strong. It is a couple of points more then a regular carnifex and for that you get the big swing ball witch just dishes out damage vs many miodels. also descent Ap. The claws are very good, the only source of 2x withouth the-1 to hit. That is very strong. And you get both one one model.

So unless you are just going for cheapest T6 wounds (mawlock and fexeS) possible there is suck a small price to upgrade it to a stone crusher.

But as many have pointed out, Shuppet not least, you really want your fexes to be dakka. This little gem can onlu grav the 12" plasma shot. Not very good.

RIP Screamer Killer

I agree, as fair as this looks I'm much preferring the Dakkafex. I mean I've been playing the Dakkafex so I know it's a good unit, and I haven't played the Stonecrusher's yet, but it doesn't seem like it's particularly worth swapping over for, they don't seem particularly better than Dakkafexes. But hey just thought I'd look for opinions, maybe I was missing something, but eh. I think this one, while playable, is slightly weaker than the Dakkafex to be straight honest and requires more work (getting into CC) and probably wants an Old One Eye there to make it consistent because it doesn't have near as many dice as Dakkafex. It also can't hit Stormravens

EDIT: Also - I am Shuppet

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
I'll bite. I saw some discsion on one of the threads with these with old one eye would be good.

It is very strong. It is a couple of points more then a regular carnifex and for that you get the big swing ball witch just dishes out damage vs many miodels. also descent Ap. The claws are very good, the only source of 2x withouth the-1 to hit. That is very strong. And you get both one one model.

So unless you are just going for cheapest T6 wounds (mawlock and fexeS) possible there is suck a small price to upgrade it to a stone crusher.

But as many have pointed out, Shuppet not least, you really want your fexes to be dakka. This little gem can onlu grav the 12" plasma shot. Not very good.

RIP Screamer Killer

I agree, as fair as this looks I'm much preferring the Dakkafex. I mean I've been playing the Dakkafex so I know it's a good unit, and I haven't played the Stonecrusher's yet, but it doesn't seem like it's particularly worth swapping over for, they don't seem particularly better than Dakkafexes. But hey just thought I'd look for opinions, maybe I was missing something, but eh. I think this one, while playable, is slightly weaker than the Dakkafex to be straight honest and requires more work (getting into CC) and probably wants an Old One Eye there to make it consistent because it doesn't have near as many dice as Dakkafex. It also can't hit Stormravens

EDIT: Also - I am Shuppet

I'll post it up later but for the twin claw Wrecker Fexes, they're point for point the most efficent thing vs T7 / T8 and T8 2+ units in the index by FAR. They're only slightly beaten by Walkrants with Rending Claws / Toxin & Toxin Sac'd Genestealers, however no one is taking walkrants and Cult GS are too cheap to consider 16 point toxin sac stealers.

If you can use a Hierodule and Swarmy as distractions, Wrecker fex in theory should be insane. Their numbers are on paper are beyond amazing

Edit:

Here they are, all previous charts. Using Imgur to host them now, hopefully the resolution is better. I'd been working out Rending incorrectly (And as a byproduct the mini-haywire on the Hive Guard), thanks to Astmeister for pointing it out, it's even better than previously calculated. I've added in some more units to the AA table and added a new Anti-Tank table. As always optimum scenario for the nids is considered so take the cals with a grain of salt.

nvm imgur didn't work at all.

TLDR for anti tank

Wrecker Fexes #1, Genestealers #2, Scythed Hierodule #3, Trygons #4, Carnifex with Scythings Talons + Anything #5. #1 & #2 can be buffed further by Old One Eye // Broodlords & Patriarchs.

excellent stats. I guess Stonecrushers are really nice if you can get them in there. That efficiency would bump right up with Old One Eye hanging around as well. Might have to reconsider my perspective on just double wrecker SC fex. Is the Flail worth getting as an upgrade?

Get the flail. The flail is ridiculesly strong, meaning they cut through butter on any oponent.

 SHUPPET wrote:
excellent stats. I guess Stonecrushers are really nice if you can get them in there. That efficiency would bump right up with Old One Eye hanging around as well. Might have to reconsider my perspective on just double wrecker SC fex. Is the Flail worth getting as an upgrade?

I'm gonna try out 2 twin claws and 1 flail with old one eye and a Malanthrope. Fairly pricey but should be devastating if they get on the backline.

Hopefully the Scythed Hierodule will look too scary compared to lil ol fexes

 Zande4 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
excellent stats. I guess Stonecrushers are really nice if you can get them in there. That efficiency would bump right up with Old One Eye hanging around as well. Might have to reconsider my perspective on just double wrecker SC fex. Is the Flail worth getting as an upgrade?

I'm gonna try out 2 twin claws and 1 flail with old one eye and a Malanthrope. Fairly pricey but should be devastating if they get on the backline.

Hopefully the Scythed Hierodule will look too scary compared to lil ol fexes

let us know how it goes

the smart move will be for them to take out the fexes first before they can make it to combat i think. But then again, letting a Heirodule go to town on your back field unphased is no good situation either. That's gotta be difficult to play against

What is the best support for that sett up? Long range? Foot sloggung? Deep strikeshenanigans? Swarmlord slingshot?

Edit, never mind. Fexes cant have rending claws.

Can somebody explain why the genstealers cult genstealers are considered better?

 Niiai wrote:


Can somebody explain why the genstealers cult genstealers are considered better?

Let's make a pros and cons list for using GSC Genestealers over Tyranid Genestealers

Pros:

2 points cheaper per model. Because reasons
180 points cheaper per squad. Because you don't need a Trygon
Can NEVER be alpha struck, and can come in on whatever turn you want them to
You can have each squad either come in or not come in based on what you roll for the other squads' CA. This is worth its own point and then some
The Patriarch is flat out better and cheaper than the Tyranid Broodlord, and not just because of the psychic powers, which are their own pros below:
Mass Hypnosis. WOW. The Horror on steroids and then some
Mind Control. As long as your Patriarch is Cult Ambushing, might as well steal his guns too
Might From Beyond. Why yes, I did want to more than double my damage output against T8 targets, and increase by roughly 150% for all other targets. Thanks for asking!
Cult Ambush is a lot more reliable than most people give it credit for, especially with a CP re-roll. Over 90% of the time, you're getting a 9" charge or better if you spend a CP re-roll to avoid the 12" deployment option.
The "bad" result that most people worry about, 1 on the CA table, really isn't terrible. Most of the time, one of those edges are totally fine. I mean, I'd still probably spend a CP re-roll to avoid it, but it's not awful and can totally still result in a 9" charge.

Cons:
You do miss the Tyranid Psychic powers, but just grab 2-3 patriarchs and 3 squads of 20 stealers in a vanguard detachment and carry on building your Tyranids army with a Swarmlord or something
They are so good that people are liable to complain about it
GSC are a little more CP hungry than regular stealers, sometimes wanting the CP re-roll for CA deployment and their charge roll, instead of just the charge roll for Nids. Grab 99 points' worth of Rippers and call it a day with the Swarmlord and a Malanthrope and I don't think you'll regret it though.

Better late than never!

Finally had my 1st game with Tyranids this week. It was a very interesting experience. Ran a non-spam TAC Tyranid list with just some units I wanted to try out. Haven't been following this thread so I actually don't know what is optimal with bugs yet. Played against a flamer-heavy Immolator-spam Sisters mech army with Shadowsword.

Battle report coming this weekend. I will throw a link here when it comes out.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 luke1705 wrote:

 Niiai wrote:


Can somebody explain why the genstealers cult genstealers are considered better?

Let's make a pros and cons list for using GSC Genestealers over Tyranid Genestealers

Pros:

2 points cheaper per model. Because reasons
180 points cheaper per squad. Because you don't need a Trygon
Can NEVER be alpha struck, and can come in on whatever turn you want them to
You can have each squad either come in or not come in based on what you roll for the other squads' CA. This is worth its own point and then some
The Patriarch is flat out better and cheaper than the Tyranid Broodlord, and not just because of the psychic powers, which are their own pros below:
Mass Hypnosis. WOW. The Horror on steroids and then some
Mind Control. As long as your Patriarch is Cult Ambushing, might as well steal his guns too
Might From Beyond. Why yes, I did want to more than double my damage output against T8 targets, and increase by roughly 150% for all other targets. Thanks for asking!
Cult Ambush is a lot more reliable than most people give it credit for, especially with a CP re-roll. Over 90% of the time, you're getting a 9" charge or better if you spend a CP re-roll to avoid the 12" deployment option.
The "bad" result that most people worry about, 1 on the CA table, really isn't terrible. Most of the time, one of those edges are totally fine. I mean, I'd still probably spend a CP re-roll to avoid it, but it's not awful and can totally still result in a 9" charge.

Cons:
You do miss the Tyranid Psychic powers, but just grab 2-3 patriarchs and 3 squads of 20 stealers in a vanguard detachment and carry on building your Tyranids army with a Swarmlord or something
They are so good that people are liable to complain about it
GSC are a little more CP hungry than regular stealers, sometimes wanting the CP re-roll for CA deployment and their charge roll, instead of just the charge roll for Nids. Grab 99 points' worth of Rippers and call it a day with the Swarmlord and a Malanthrope and I don't think you'll regret it though.

I ran regular stealers in my game. Haven't looked into GSC stealers yet, though I have heard good things about them.

 luke1705 wrote:

 Niiai wrote:


Can somebody explain why the genstealers cult genstealers are considered better?

Let's make a pros and cons list for using GSC Genestealers over Tyranid Genestealers

Pros:

2 points cheaper per model. Because reasons
180 points cheaper per squad. Because you don't need a Trygon
Can NEVER be alpha struck, and can come in on whatever turn you want them to
You can have each squad either come in or not come in based on what you roll for the other squads' CA. This is worth its own point and then some
The Patriarch is flat out better and cheaper than the Tyranid Broodlord, and not just because of the psychic powers, which are their own pros below:
Mass Hypnosis. WOW. The Horror on steroids and then some
Mind Control. As long as your Patriarch is Cult Ambushing, might as well steal his guns too
Might From Beyond. Why yes, I did want to more than double my damage output against T8 targets, and increase by roughly 150% for all other targets. Thanks for asking!
Cult Ambush is a lot more reliable than most people give it credit for, especially with a CP re-roll. Over 90% of the time, you're getting a 9" charge or better if you spend a CP re-roll to avoid the 12" deployment option.
The "bad" result that most people worry about, 1 on the CA table, really isn't terrible. Most of the time, one of those edges are totally fine. I mean, I'd still probably spend a CP re-roll to avoid it, but it's not awful and can totally still result in a 9" charge.

Cons:
You do miss the Tyranid Psychic powers, but just grab 2-3 patriarchs and 3 squads of 20 stealers in a vanguard detachment and carry on building your Tyranids army with a Swarmlord or something
They are so good that people are liable to complain about it
GSC are a little more CP hungry than regular stealers, sometimes wanting the CP re-roll for CA deployment and their charge roll, instead of just the charge roll for Nids. Grab 99 points' worth of Rippers and call it a day with the Swarmlord and a Malanthrope and I don't think you'll regret it though.

AFAIK you can just use the reroll on the CA once per turn. This is certainly a downside.

 Astmeister wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:

 Niiai wrote:


Can somebody explain why the genstealers cult genstealers are considered better?

Let's make a pros and cons list for using GSC Genestealers over Tyranid Genestealers

Pros:

2 points cheaper per model. Because reasons
180 points cheaper per squad. Because you don't need a Trygon
Can NEVER be alpha struck, and can come in on whatever turn you want them to
You can have each squad either come in or not come in based on what you roll for the other squads' CA. This is worth its own point and then some
The Patriarch is flat out better and cheaper than the Tyranid Broodlord, and not just because of the psychic powers, which are their own pros below:
Mass Hypnosis. WOW. The Horror on steroids and then some
Mind Control. As long as your Patriarch is Cult Ambushing, might as well steal his guns too
Might From Beyond. Why yes, I did want to more than double my damage output against T8 targets, and increase by roughly 150% for all other targets. Thanks for asking!
Cult Ambush is a lot more reliable than most people give it credit for, especially with a CP re-roll. Over 90% of the time, you're getting a 9" charge or better if you spend a CP re-roll to avoid the 12" deployment option.
The "bad" result that most people worry about, 1 on the CA table, really isn't terrible. Most of the time, one of those edges are totally fine. I mean, I'd still probably spend a CP re-roll to avoid it, but it's not awful and can totally still result in a 9" charge.

Cons:
You do miss the Tyranid Psychic powers, but just grab 2-3 patriarchs and 3 squads of 20 stealers in a vanguard detachment and carry on building your Tyranids army with a Swarmlord or something
They are so good that people are liable to complain about it
GSC are a little more CP hungry than regular stealers, sometimes wanting the CP re-roll for CA deployment and their charge roll, instead of just the charge roll for Nids. Grab 99 points' worth of Rippers and call it a day with the Swarmlord and a Malanthrope and I don't think you'll regret it though.

AFAIK you can just use the reroll on the CA once per turn. This is certainly a downside.

its not a downside, it's still better than the alternative

There are some Con to GSC stealers actually.

1) Can receive "Synapse" only from 1 model.
2) Patriarch has no SitW and does not help your other gants.

And there is one more Pro:

1) Can actually charge what they want even if outside synapse.

Regular genestealers do not have instinctive behavior Spoletta.

That's one pro that goes out of the window then.

 Astmeister wrote:

AFAIK you can just use the reroll on the CA once per turn. This is certainly a downside.

Can be compensated with by having them arrive alongside a Primus instead of a Patriarch when they ambush if it is too great a concern. He can reroll the result for free when arriving and is quite a bit cheaper than a Patriarch at the cost of not having the moral immunity bubble (still offers +1 to hit though).


Also has anyone fielded a Hierophant Biotitan yet? I was generously given one as a birthday present by my brother and have been itching to field it, but have no clue what to run with it and what point level would be ideal (though obviously it will have to be more than 2000 points). It certainly got a lot meaner than the old one if nothing else.

ambush is a strong feauture, i played a list with 57 purestrain and 2 patriarchs, with trygon 30 hormagants and swarlord in spore you easily overload ur enemy, psy powers like mass hypnosis and mind control helps you take less fire, for me they are a strong choice.

 blackmage wrote:
ambush is a strong feauture, i played a list with 57 purestrain and 2 patriarchs, with trygon 30 hormagants and swarlord in spore you easily overload ur enemy, psy powers like mass hypnosis and mind control helps you take less fire, for me they are a strong choice.

Those are about 1650 points and 7 reserves.

What are you actually deploying with your points left?

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Tyranids) ++

+ HQ +

Malanthropes: Malanthrope

The Swarmlord: Power: Catalyst, Power: The Horror

+ Troops +

Hormagaunts: 30x Hormagaunt

Termagants: 18x Termagant (Fleshborer)

Termagants: 20x Termagant (Fleshborer)

+ Elites +

Hive Guard
. Hive Guard: Impaler Cannon
. Hive Guard: Impaler Cannon
. Hive Guard: Impaler Cannon

+ Heavy Support +

Trygon: Adrenal Glands, Bio-electric Pulse, 3x Massive Scything Talons, Toxinspike

+ Dedicated Transport +

Tyrannocyte: 5x Barbed Strangler

++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Tyranids - Genestealer Cults) ++

+ Uncategorised +

Cult Ambush Table

+ HQ +

Patriarch: Power: Mass Hypnosis

Patriarch: Power: Mind control

+ Elites +

Purestrain Genestealers: 18x Purestrain Genestealer, 18x Purestrain Talons

Purestrain Genestealers: 15x Purestrain Genestealer, 15x Purestrain Talons

Purestrain Genestealers: 18x Purestrain Genestealer, 18x Purestrain Talons

this is the complete list, only 5 units deployed so usually i go first, trygon+hormagaunts and close to them swarmlord and spore deep striking, cult could pop up 1st or 2nd turn depend by opponent.
The only thing i could change is one unit of termagants, instead use 3 warriors with bonesword and lashes +1 venom cannon you get another synapse and a unit in the backfield helping with some CaC if needed.

Your list does not work that way. Half the units have to be deployed at the beginning due to BRB.
Also i think that reserves count as drops for who is going first.

no who finish deploy first go first, matter nothing how much units you still have in reserve, about number of units deplyed i have 13 units i can deploy patriarch+15 purestrain and i m ok.

 blackmage wrote:
no who finish deploy first go first, matter nothing how much units you still have in reserve, about number of units deplyed i have 13 units i can deploy patriarch+15 purestrain and i m ok.

Patriarch and purestrains still have be declared as going into reserves separately I think. The Cult Ambush rule allows for them to arrive together but not to be placed into reserves together like the Trygon rule.

 Astmeister wrote:
Your list does not work that way. Half the units have to be deployed at the beginning due to BRB.
Also i think that reserves count as drops for who is going first.

They do. 'in the above example there are 13 units. 2 of the are 'transports' so it would only be 11 deployments, but still not the best chances of going first.

But as far as I can see the 5 GSC units, the trygon, transport and the 2 units inside it wants to be deployed in reserves. All of these can not go in reserve as they add up to 9. But you can only have half in reserve, so 7 of the units needs to start on the table.

I have used quite a bit of deep strike with both nids and tau against people who also had deep strike.

It is a mistake to deep strike turn 1. I hold my deepstrikers back until the enemy has deployed at least some of there's. I have won every game against every player to deployed theirs turn 1. They followed very predictable patterns that I prepared my deployment for while my deepstrikers hit where they would be most effective in turn 2 or 3 when the player left vulnerable openings.

Its so tempting to bring multiple trygons with multiple genestealer brood and just shove them in the enemies face turn 1. But your wrong. The psychological impact of knowing they are coming is valuable in and of itself and on turn 1 you are allowing the player to dictate how you will place them and what they will fight.

Hold onto your deep strike units. It pays off WAY more in turn 2 or 3.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also side note. I have a bunch of pms I want to add to the first post. My laptop died and all my interneting is on my phone atm. New laptop should be here by Monday. I will update once I get that so I can do some editing of the posts that won't drive me insane.

 Zimko wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
no who finish deploy first go first, matter nothing how much units you still have in reserve, about number of units deplyed i have 13 units i can deploy patriarch+15 purestrain and i m ok.

Patriarch and purestrains still have be declared as going into reserves separately I think. The Cult Ambush rule allows for them to arrive together but not to be placed into reserves together like the Trygon rule.

i dont know what you really mean, seems a no sense


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:
I have used quite a bit of deep strike with both nids and tau against people who also had deep strike.

It is a mistake to deep strike turn 1. I hold my deepstrikers back until the enemy has deployed at least some of there's. I have won every game against every player to deployed theirs turn 1. They followed very predictable patterns that I prepared my deployment for while my deepstrikers hit where they would be most effective in turn 2 or 3 when the player left vulnerable openings.

Its so tempting to bring multiple trygons with multiple genestealer brood and just shove them in the enemies face turn 1. But your wrong. The psychological impact of knowing they are coming is valuable in and of itself and on turn 1 you are allowing the player to dictate how you will place them and what they will fight.

Hold onto your deep strike units. It pays off WAY more in turn 2 or 3.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also side note. I have a bunch of pms I want to add to the first post. My laptop died and all my interneting is on my phone atm. New laptop should be here by Monday. I will update once I get that so I can do some editing of the posts that won't drive me insane.

depend what kind of army you play, tyr cant waste time and risk to be annilathed, we dont have inv saves or though units as some other armies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Niiai wrote:

 Astmeister wrote:
Your list does not work that way. Half the units have to be deployed at the beginning due to BRB.
Also i think that reserves count as drops for who is going first.

They do. 'in the above example there are 13 units. 2 of the are 'transports' so it would only be 11 deployments, but still not the best chances of going first.

But as far as I can see the 5 GSC units, the trygon, transport and the 2 units inside it wants to be deployed in reserves. All of these can not go in reserve as they add up to 9. But you can only have half in reserve, so 7 of the units needs to start on the table.

ok show me the line where units in reserve counts for who start firts pls, cause i find only about DEPLOY nothing about reserves.

 blackmage wrote:

 Zimko wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
no who finish deploy first go first, matter nothing how much units you still have in reserve, about number of units deplyed i have 13 units i can deploy patriarch+15 purestrain and i m ok.

Patriarch and purestrains still have be declared as going into reserves separately I think. The Cult Ambush rule allows for them to arrive together but not to be placed into reserves together like the Trygon rule.

i dont know what you really mean, seems a no sense

Units placed in reserve still count as drop, which is also to find in the designers note.

It goes like this:

Player A places Unit A1 on the table.
Player B places Unit B1 on the table.
Player A places Unit A2 in reserve. (Trygon + tunnel unit is one drop)
Player B places Unit B2 in reserve.
Player A places Unit A3 on the table.
And so on...


But still half your units need to be deployed, doesn`t matter how many drops are reserves / deployment.
13 units means 7 have to be deployed and only 6 can be reserves.
5 drops deployment and 5 drops reserves can not end up bringing 7 of that 13 units in reserve.

Edit:

ok show me the line where units in reserve counts for who start firts pls, cause i find only about DEPLOY nothing about reserves.

Page 215 states, that deploying in reserve is just a special kind of deploying so it still counts as a drop.

Here the quote from the designers note:

Q: In missions where players alternate deploying units, do units that are set up somewhere other than the battlefield still count as a player’s deployment choice? What about units that begin the battle embarked within a transport?

A: Units with abilities on their datasheets that allow them to be set up somewhere other than the battlefield must still be ‘set up’ in that locale, and so still count as a deployment choice. When you choose to set up a transport, declare what units (if any) are embarked inside – these are not separate deployment choices.

For example, two players are deploying their armies for the Only War mission. The mission instructs them to alternate deploying their units. Player A starts by setting up a unit of Ork Boyz on the battlefield. Player B then sets up a unit of Intercessors on the battlefield. Player A then sets up a Battlewagon on the battlefield – as it is a transport, Player A declares it will start the battle with a Warboss and a unit of Tankbustas embarked inside. Player B then sets up a unit of Terminators, but uses their Teleport Strike ability to set them up in a teleportarium chamber instead of on the battlefield. Player A then sets up their next unit, and so on.

I think Grotrebel has this covered. ^_^

 blackmage wrote:
no who finish deploy first go first, matter nothing how much units you still have in reserve, about number of units deplyed i have 13 units i can deploy patriarch+15 purestrain and i m ok.

Placing a unit in reserves counts as deploying a unit (aka what most call a "drop") and is no different than placing a unit on a table. Some units like the Trygon -- allow you to place an additional unit in reserve at the same time as thus count as a single deployment or "Drop". Likewise transports allow you to deploy multiple units at the same time counting as a single deployment (or "drop") as long as the units are embarked in the transport. GSC Cult Ambush does not have such a rule. Instead, you must deploy each unit separately into reserves when conducting a cult ambush. However, after the game has started and when it comes time to take them out of reserves, you may deploy a HQ along with another unit simultaneously using the same cult ambush role result.

So your army does not have 5 deployments or drops; it has a lot more.

Not at least the problem of placing half of the army on the table. You need more units or less reserve. :-)

There is no units begin in reserves and then are deployed onto the table for deployment. Units are nowhere until you place them there. Read the rule for any deepstriking unit. They are deployed into whatever fluff option they have that is basically reserves. You still have to actually place them there as one of your deployments.

I think he's got it now.

Back on topic: I tried an army containing 3 Carnifexes equiped with 1 set of Scything Talons, 2 Deathspitters and a thresher scythe. Supporting them was a Malanthrope, Old One Eye and a Swarmlord. (There's more to the army but this was the 'anvil')

Anyway, I won't go into the entire battle but I did reach a point where my Carnifexes were in melee with Necron Warriors. I wasn't sure if I should use the thresher scythe for an average of 8 attacks, or use the scything talons for 4 attacks that ignore all of their armor and reroll 1 to hit.

I tried both, and found the scything talons were performing better. So I did the math and found that the only place where thresher scythes will come ahead is against T4 or T3 targets with 5+ or worse saves. Does that sound about right? This is assuming only 1 pair of scything talons too.

Sporocyst as anti Scion Deep strike heavy meta? Drops onto an objective before turn one and projects a very large 9" bubble.

 Eldarain wrote:
Sporocyst as anti Scion Deep strike heavy meta? Drops onto an objective before turn one and projects a very large 9" bubble.

An army with almost only sporocysts (barbed strangler) and mieotic sporebombs. might even work!

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but with Instant Death being scrapped, Tyranid Warriors have gotten very good. They've gotten bonuses in a better Shadow in the Warp, cheap upgrades and buffs from a Prime. I think I'm right in saying you can get a unit of 3 with AG, Boneswords and Deathspitters for just under 100pts (may well be wrong, the new way of working out points is very confusing - I've just got back from abroad and reading up on the changes so this all new to me...). Anyway, that gives you a cheap Troops unit that's durable and pretty decent in both combat and shooting.

As discussed I think the Trygon Prime + Genestealer combo is an excellent option, but is it overkill/stupid to drop a Tyrannocyte with a Broodlord in next to them? Seems a bit too much, but it will give the Genestealers the buff and some psychic powers to help them out.

What other units do you guys recommend? From what I've seen so far, it's pretty much the opposite of what you'd take in 7th... I'm writing a list here and including Warriors, Trygons, Genestealers and no flyrants.

I would like to see some peoples experience with warriors. I was a beliver when I first saw the codex, but I have grown more cold over time.

I would love to see some peooles experience with them. Being all round models they can be very flexible mid-game, as opposed to genstealets in a shooting senario, or devilgaunts in a mellee fight.

Despite no instant death, 3 warriors are about as resilient as 9 necron warriors... except they don't reanimate and multi-damage weapons kill them faster. Despite this, they're priced low so you can lose them and not worry. If I were to play them, I'd put a large unit of 9 in a trygon tunnel with deathspitters and boneswords.

Mix and match is the way to go with warriors.

In a unit of 9, i would have 5 with deathspitters and boneswords, 2 with deathspitters and bonesword + lashwip and 2 with only ST.

ST guys are there to die from shooting, Lashwip ones die to melee. The other 5 bring the hurt.

WIth AG that totals 286 points for a unit that is though, hurts in melee even if charged, is a bad shooting target for the first 8 wounds and is actually a ranged threath, shooting the equivalent of 7 heavy bolters. The perfect second line.

The Shadow wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong here, but with Instant Death being scrapped, Tyranid Warriors have gotten very good. They've gotten bonuses in a better Shadow in the Warp, cheap upgrades and buffs from a Prime. I think I'm right in saying you can get a unit of 3 with AG, Boneswords and Deathspitters for just under 100pts (may well be wrong, the new way of working out points is very confusing - I've just got back from abroad and reading up on the changes so this all new to me...). Anyway, that gives you a cheap Troops unit that's durable and pretty decent in both combat and shooting.

I'm walking a unit of 9 with Deathspitters up the board each game. Very good unit. Pressure for synapse completely alleviated, and the unit itself is just always a threat and always useful, always takes some commitment to remove and always puts some damage. My experience with them is they are a very good Synapse unit. Malanthrope only covers so much area with its bubble and taking 2 is not a good use of points imo, and Swarmlord doesn't fit in every list. I'd recommend Warriors for sure. They also have the advantage of being easy to move, which is relevant when you are already running a bunch of units, another 30 devilgants might seriously impact both the enjoyment of playing the list for both players, as well as it's practicality in a tournament. E.G. I'm already running 60 Termagants on top of the rest of my army, taking another 30 doesn't feel like something I'd want to do even if they are an excellent unit. And as you said, Prime's make them even better, and Prime is a great cheap HQ who actually has damage output. It's all going to depend how you want to build your list of course.

We went from having the worst troops in the game, to having a troop slot where every unit is very playable, and often multiple different ones inside the same army. Tyranids have gotten a lot of praise for being strong in the new edition, but I got to take a second out to thank GW for taking the time out to design a fun codex. Some units are still bad, but even things like the Maleceptor is nowhere near as bad as some of last editions misfires. The only thing that seems truly terrible is the Tervigon, and I understand they are nervous about recreating 5th ed Tervigon who was so strong he basically held our entire dex up on his shoulders like Flyrant did last edition.

The buffs to warriors are nothing next to the buffs to shrikes. I do bring a small unit of warriors to act as back field synapse and blast away with a cannon. But I bring a large unit of shrikes to act as front line synapse and mess people up. They are just as durable but twice as fast and have Fly for only 6 more ppm. Shrikes with boneswords and fleshhooks are really great as a surgical strike melee unit.

 Lance845 wrote:
The buffs to warriors are nothing next to the buffs to shrikes. I do bring a small unit of warriors to act as back field synapse and blast away with a cannon. But I bring a large unit of shrikes to act as front line synapse and mess people up. They are just as durable but twice as fast and have Fly for only 6 more ppm. Shrikes with boneswords and fleshhooks are really great as a surgical strike melee unit.

Right on point, they're a great unit and a staple since the Index release

Yeah, shrikes in this edition got a buff even bigger than the warriors.

Now they are competing with warriors, and if you are looking for a melee specialist unit, they are clearly better. As a rule of thumb:

1) If you need troops, take warriors.
2) If you need a cheap synapse, take warriors
3) If you have a prime, take warriors, possibly in one big unit. Shrikes will outrun him.
4) If you need a backfield unit, take warriors.

In all other roles, take shrikes.

Purestrains are now 15pts. Updated FAQ available.

Yeah all our troops are pretty good now, which is great to see.

How are people running Hormagaunts though? They're still cheap despite the boosts, but I'm conscious of making them over-costed by adding Adrenal Glands and/or Toxin Sacs. I'm just thinking of running a big unit of 30 with no upgrades on foot to take advantage of their 8" movement. That's still only 150pts. Thoughts?

And Termagants? Units of 30 with 10 Fleshborer/20 Devourers seems to be the popular option. I liked a unit of pure Devilgants in a pod last edition, is that still viable with a unit of 20, to guarantee the re-roll of 1s to wound?

Loopstah wrote:
Purestrains are now 15pts. Updated FAQ available.

and the reason for that increase of cost?

Loopstah wrote:
Purestrains are now 15pts. Updated FAQ available.

Yeah, that was fast.
And yet no comments on the Tyrannid rending claws. I'm starting to believe that they are legit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 blackmage wrote:

Loopstah wrote:
Purestrains are now 15pts. Updated FAQ available.

and the reason for that increase of cost?

12 + self delivering method. Seems fair.

 The Shadow wrote:
Yeah all our troops are pretty good now, which is great to see.

How are people running Hormagaunts though? They're still cheap despite the boosts, but I'm conscious of making them over-costed by adding Adrenal Glands and/or Toxin Sacs. I'm just thinking of running a big unit of 30 with no upgrades on foot to take advantage of their 8" movement. That's still only 150pts. Thoughts?

And Termagants? Units of 30 with 10 Fleshborer/20 Devourers seems to be the popular option. I liked a unit of pure Devilgants in a pod last edition, is that still viable with a unit of 20, to guarantee the re-roll of 1s to wound?

Pod or Trygon, I think a unit of 20 devgaunts is good. If you have spare points after building your list, it's easy to slip a couple regular fleshborers in there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ouch, 15 point purestrains. There goes the purestrains spam. Now do you reduce your units to 13 or take regular Genestealers? I guess it depends on how worthwhile you find the GSC psychic powers.

Spoletta wrote:

 blackmage wrote:

Loopstah wrote:
Purestrains are now 15pts. Updated FAQ available.

and the reason for that increase of cost?

12 + self delivering method. Seems fair.

Yeah 10 ppm was bonkers undercosted. I was hoping that they would change Tyranid Genestealers to be 10 ppm (free upgraded RC) but even then, their alternative delivery method was too good not to be worth SOME amount of points, and they were totally overreaching into Acolyte and Metamorph Hybrid territory (as in, the Purestrains were so good and so cheap that there was literally no reason to take those two units instead).

A little sad that it's a 150% increase. Don't know if I'll be able to run 3 squads of 20 any more....but that's also bad because then I don't have a Vanguard GSC detachment....RIP hmm this will require a lot of thinking

Has anybody experience with warriors in trygon?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Loopstah wrote:
Purestrains are now 15pts. Updated FAQ available.

Where is this? I just found the old one.

 Niiai wrote:
Has anybody experience with warriors in trygon?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Loopstah wrote:
Purestrains are now 15pts. Updated FAQ available.

Where is this? I just found the old one.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/23/updated-faqs-and-boots-on-the-groundgw-homepage-post-2/

I am very imprssed by the FAQ. If the comoany keeps this up they have a very good game.

Spoletta wrote:

Loopstah wrote:
Purestrains are now 15pts. Updated FAQ available.

Yeah, that was fast.
And yet no comments on the Tyrannid rending claws. I'm starting to believe that they are legit.


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 blackmage wrote:

Loopstah wrote:
Purestrains are now 15pts. Updated FAQ available.

and the reason for that increase of cost?

12 + self delivering method. Seems fair.

but they dont cost 12, they cost 15 now, funny all ETC lists with gsc are invalid now, they will play but invalid lists.


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 luke1705 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

 blackmage wrote:

Loopstah wrote:
Purestrains are now 15pts. Updated FAQ available.

and the reason for that increase of cost?

12 + self delivering method. Seems fair.

Yeah 10 ppm was bonkers undercosted. I was hoping that they would change Tyranid Genestealers to be 10 ppm (free upgraded RC) but even then, their alternative delivery method was too good not to be worth SOME amount of points, and they were totally overreaching into Acolyte and Metamorph Hybrid territory (as in, the Purestrains were so good and so cheap that there was literally no reason to take those two units instead).

A little sad that it's a 150% increase. Don't know if I'll be able to run 3 squads of 20 any more....but that's also bad because then I don't have a Vanguard GSC detachment....RIP hmm this will require a lot of thinking

but brimstones still cost 2pts ROFL, gw is always gw nothing change, they are killing again this edition, with tons of FAQ and errata, already became annoying.

With the changes to flyers, flocks and stealers, they just delivered a mighty sucker punch to spam lists. Today i got to say that i was really impressed by GW, didn't expect them to have become this efficent.

Sure, they got around 60% of the targets, but nothing says a new punch is not coming next month.

i hope they really do, honestly.
Btw i found nothing about flyers, what they changed to make them less playable? you mean the part where they wrote about if you have only flyers on the battlefield you lose? im not sure that will be enough, they can hide a 5 men marines squad for example (in the case of stormraven spam) and still win, become dangerous but not impossible.

This represents the ultimate good game. Play with the models you want, if a codex has some models that funnel you in playing them to have a chance they will get nerfed sooner or later.

I can play whatever I want. :-)

Yeah, i'm loving the FAQ. The writing is on the wall that GW will eventually nerf and correct things that are too powerful. Don't get comfortable if you are busy chasing the whatever is the new-hotness.

I actually feel bad for the ones that right now are painting 200+ conscripts...


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 blackmage wrote:
i hope they really do, honestly.
Btw i found nothing about flyers, what they changed to make them less playable? you mean the part where they wrote about if you have only flyers on the battlefield you lose? im not sure that will be enough, they can hide a 5 men marines squad for example (in the case of stormraven spam) and still win, become dangerous but not impossible.

Having the match tied to a squad of marines that can be taken out by anything deepstriking is a bad strategy.

Spoletta wrote:
I actually feel bad for the ones that right now are painting 200+ conscripts...


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 blackmage wrote:
i hope they really do, honestly.
Btw i found nothing about flyers, what they changed to make them less playable? you mean the part where they wrote about if you have only flyers on the battlefield you lose? im not sure that will be enough, they can hide a 5 men marines squad for example (in the case of stormraven spam) and still win, become dangerous but not impossible.

Having the match tied to a squad of marines that can be taken out by anything deepstriking is a bad strategy.

or 200+ brimstone cause they will get a nerf like razorwing flock i guess...yes i told will be dangerous but you can still try to spam flyers, just need more careful planning.

Wow, big change on Flyers...no more all Flyer spam! (in Tourneys)

pinecone77 wrote:
Wow, big change on Flyers...no more all Flyer spam! (in Tourneys)

not really sure, they can drop a SR fpr example and add lot of troops, like IG conscripts for example. just now you are aware if you lost any ground units you lost regardless how many points you scored, i can win if i have just 1 model left and you still have 5 flyers

In light of GSC purestrain nerf, if you're looking for a unit that can deliver itself to the front (deep strike) and lay down some hurt, how about Raveners?

For 33 pts each they can have rending claws (giving them 4 attacks with rending) and deathspitters. Giving them 18" heavy bolters. 6 of these would replace 20 purestrain pre-nerf or 13 purestrain post-nerf. That's 18 str 5 ap -1 shots on entering the battlefield, plus a chance to charge and have 24 rending attacks.

For 28 you can go the spinefist route and have a higher volume of shots, plus shots in melee on your turn, but I think I prefer the deathspitters.

I have stated this before, but ravaners are very good with the swarmlord.

If you run them without the swarmlord you can take cheap spinefists on them. 4 s3 shooting attacks is not the same as deathspitters, but stil nice for the price.

raveners doesn't really need swarmlord, they pop up inside enemy lines trying to deal some havock or at least divert some fire.

I disagree. They cost enough that you can't just throw them away. The heavy bolter impression at bs 4+ is good because of the delivery system, but on the swing back they are 5+ save with a really bad leadership. One turn of focused fire without synapse suport often means they die unless you pay to cp to pass leadership test. But if you pop behind enemy lines how do they have synapse?

As great as they are they need support from the rest of your army.

As a way of getting support where you want it, is the Swarmlord in a pod a viable option? It also allows you to plonk a combat monster with psychic powers 9" away from your enemy. Or is it still better to have him walk up the board protected by Tyrant Guard?

 The Shadow wrote:
As a way of getting support where you want it, is the Swarmlord in a pod a viable option? It also allows you to plonk a combat monster with psychic powers 9" away from your enemy. Or is it still better to have him walk up the board protected by Tyrant Guard?

It depends. What does the rest of your armylist look like?

I don't understand why players are still debating individual units and don't look at the complete picture. Players go for the swarmlord if the want to make the best out of the 'free movement' power. What is it that you want to slingshot forward? If you want the swarmlord only for his close combat capabilities then he is too expensive I think. He will have a big bulls eye on his face and dies almost as fast as a normal walking hive tyrant, but it is going to cost you a lot more points.

Maybe a Walkrant in a Pod with CC weapons could be nice. The question is rather: Do you need it, if you have a Trygon which is better and cheaper for this?

 Niiai wrote:
I disagree. They cost enough that you can't just throw them away. The heavy bolter impression at bs 4+ is good because of the delivery system, but on the swing back they are 5+ save with a really bad leadership. One turn of focused fire without synapse suport often means they die unless you pay to cp to pass leadership test. But if you pop behind enemy lines how do they have synapse?

As great as they are they need support from the rest of your army.

This is what Trygon primes are for. The Trygon provides synapse to other deep strikers while also bringing a healthy punch of devgaunts, warriors or Genestealers. Then you can also take a flyrant to quickly move synapse up field.

Spoletta wrote:

 blackmage wrote:

Loopstah wrote:
Purestrains are now 15pts. Updated FAQ available.

and the reason for that increase of cost?

12 + self delivering method. Seems fair.

It basically makes a real choice between the GSC 'Stealers and the Nid 'Stealers. This is a very good change.

Well, I was doodling around during breakfast today...and I had a thought

"I got the drop on you!"

HQ: Tervigon 250
HQ: as above

Troops: Genestealers, x20 240
Troops: as above

Heavy: Trygon: Adrenal Glands 180
Heavy: as above

That should run 1340....for a 1500 point game, I reserve all additional points for Summoning. 4 drops

For 2000 I think I might need more "Doods" so maybe two Lictors and some Termagants x2 for 6 drops...maybe fill out for more command points? The core concept remains though...thoughts?



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 blackmage wrote:

pinecone77 wrote:
Wow, big change on Flyers...no more all Flyer spam! (in Tourneys)

not really sure, they can drop a SR fpr example and add lot of troops, like IG conscripts for example. just now you are aware if you lost any ground units you lost regardless how many points you scored, i can win if i have just 1 model left and you still have 5 flyers

Oh you'll still see Flyers, just not All Flyers... It also means if somebody goes Flyer heavy, you can focus on the ground element as a strong counter.

I think Tervigons are far more effective replacing Termagaunts already on the board rather than spawning new ones. Is that an attempt at getting the first turn by having fewer units to deploy?

 Zimko wrote:
I think Tervigons are far more effective replacing Termagaunts already on the board rather than spawning new ones. Is that an attempt at getting the first turn by having fewer units to deploy?

Yep Only 4 drops. Almost a auto go first, then spawn every Termagant you can (all of the points reserved) and play as though you had placed them.

Oh you'll still see Flyers, just not All Flyers... It also means if somebody goes Flyer heavy, you can focus on the ground element as a strong counter.

yes infact yesterday evening i won against 5 SR just killing anything on the ground (120 conscripts commisar and commander, 10 veterans with plasma), btw isn't a easy match, i had left on the table only 6 purestrain and patriarch

Looking at Hive guard abit and certainly intrigued by their usage. Wondering how Instinctive behaviour ('it can only target the nearest visible unit if it shoots') and the impaler canon works. The impaler canon states it can target units that are not visible yet if their are no synapse creatures within range can they actually fire at all if nothing is visible? I really like their abilty to stay hidden and yet still snipe away. What are peoples thoughts on this unit?

pinecone77 wrote:
Well, I was doodling around during breakfast today...and I had a thought

"I got the drop on you!"

HQ: Tervigon 250
HQ: as above

Troops: Genestealers, x20 240
Troops: as above

Heavy: Trygon: Adrenal Glands 180
Heavy: as above

That should run 1340....for a 1500 point game, I reserve all additional points for Summoning. 4 drops

For 2000 I think I might need more "Doods" so maybe two Lictors and some Termagants x2 for 6 drops...maybe fill out for more command points? The core concept remains though...thoughts?



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 blackmage wrote:

pinecone77 wrote:
Wow, big change on Flyers...no more all Flyer spam! (in Tourneys)

not really sure, they can drop a SR fpr example and add lot of troops, like IG conscripts for example. just now you are aware if you lost any ground units you lost regardless how many points you scored, i can win if i have just 1 model left and you still have 5 flyers

Oh you'll still see Flyers, just not All Flyers... It also means if somebody goes Flyer heavy, you can focus on the ground element as a strong counter.

Are those Genestealers going in a tunnel with the Trygons? If so you have too many in reserve.

Spoletta wrote:

Yeah, that was fast.
And yet no comments on the Tyrannid rending claws. I'm starting to believe that they are legit.

It's not even a question imo. If there was a price attached to them they would never be used because Claws would be so much more effective




Anyway, Genestealer change kinda makes GSC bad?

What Trygon loadout do you guys consider the best? I think the tail weapons are the only customizable options?

 Zande4 wrote:

pinecone77 wrote:
Well, I was doodling around during breakfast today...and I had a thought

"I got the drop on you!"

HQ: Tervigon 250
HQ: as above

Troops: Genestealers, x20 240
Troops: as above

Heavy: Trygon: Adrenal Glands 180
Heavy: as above

That should run 1340....for a 1500 point game, I reserve all additional points for Summoning. 4 drops

For 2000 I think I might need more "Doods" so maybe two Lictors and some Termagants x2 for 6 drops...maybe fill out for more command points? The core concept remains though...thoughts?



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 blackmage wrote:

pinecone77 wrote:
Wow, big change on Flyers...no more all Flyer spam! (in Tourneys)

not really sure, they can drop a SR fpr example and add lot of troops, like IG conscripts for example. just now you are aware if you lost any ground units you lost regardless how many points you scored, i can win if i have just 1 model left and you still have 5 flyers

Oh you'll still see Flyers, just not All Flyers... It also means if somebody goes Flyer heavy, you can focus on the ground element as a strong counter.

Are those Genestealers going in a tunnel with the Trygons? If so you have too many in reserve.

I don't understand...do you mean I need for on the table? Hmmm you might be right...I need to check but going up to 6 drops kinda ruins "the trick"

 SHUPPET wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

Yeah, that was fast.
And yet no comments on the Tyrannid rending claws. I'm starting to believe that they are legit.

It's not even a question imo. If there was a price attached to them they would never be used because Claws would be so much more effective




Anyway, Genestealer change kinda makes GSC bad?

Just to be clear, i was talking about the monstrous rending claws of the tyrant.

They are on par with the monstrous scything talons (less damage but better rerolls and rending on 6), yet the claws are free while the talons cost 31.
Anyway, after seeing the marine codex, this question is no longer important. Since they are not in the actual sprue of the tyrant, we can safely assume that they will be gone with our codex.

 SHUPPET wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

Yeah, that was fast.
And yet no comments on the Tyrannid rending claws. I'm starting to believe that they are legit.

It's not even a question imo. If there was a price attached to them they would never be used because Claws would be so much more effective




Anyway, Genestealer change kinda makes GSC bad?

It is very well a question. Mathhammer wise the RC are much better than the ST and cost zero. Do not underestimate the reroll on wound rolls! (to be fair the ST are better under some circumstances, but the RC are usually better and incredibly cheap)


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Did Jifel already give a summary of how the ATC went for his Tyranid army? I am very interested in hearing it.

Does the hice crone cost to many of the army points, compared to it's cost in points? At 8, it should cost closer to 160? But it is only 145?

With the FAQ updating the points cost for GSC Purestrains I had to change up my list for the tournament this weekend (Boooooo but it was a fair call xD)

My biggest weakness with the last list was flyers but now I'm not so worried (Was honestly gonna ignore them and do my best regardless)

Here is the current list I'd like to run, I'd really like feed back please as this is the first tournament I've been too since like... 2008. Its Nova format so if anyone can think of strategies to be holding in my head when picking which objectives and all I'd greatly appreciate this.

Current list - 1998 points
Supreme Command Detachment
2x Acolyte Iconwards
1x Magus (likely with Mind Control picked)

Vanguard Detachment
2x Patriarchs (Might from Beyond and Mass Hypnosis for these guys)
3-20x Purestrain Genestealers
1-11x Purestrain Genestealers
1x - Cult Chimera - 2x Heavy Flamers

Vanguard Detachment
1x Flyrant - Rending Claws, 2x Deathspitters, Adrenal Glands, Wings (choosing Catalyst)
3x Lictors

Thats 6 CP there not terrible, 71 genestealer bodies, a bunch of characters to buff or randomly grab a solo objective if convenient. The flyrant is there for the catalyst mostly since theres no reason to bring a broodlord with all GSC Stealers and I didn't want a non-psyker HQ. Though I'm still debating that The Horror may be better than Catalyst. I'm also thinking of switching the Lictors to Biovores, dropping 11 points and picking up a single Neurothrope understrength Auxilary unit for the other Hive Fleet power (If I choose catalyst on the Tyrant, Horror on the Neuro and vice versa)

Another thought I'm having is to actually split the 11x man squad into a 5 and 6 squad so that if I want I can just ferry the 6 man squad the two iconwards and the magus up the field, or make it a 10 man stealer squad, walk up the one unit of 20 with the icon ward and ferry magus and second icon to where they are needed (2x 5 man squads maybe?)

Strategies I'm thinking of using with this.

First - deployment, and I had a question about that. Does deploying inside of a transport that is placed on the field count as those units being off the table for the 50% rule? Because currently I'm thinking of holding:
2x Patriarchs
3x Lictors
2-20x Purestrains
All in reserve for the ambush but if embarking messes up how many units can go into reserves I would have to avoid deploying almost everything (More of a reason to drop the lictors :/)
Deployment would be
1-20x Purestrains
2x Iconwards
1x Magus
1x Chimera
1x Flyrant
1-11x Purestrains

But if Embarking messes that up it really means I'd have
1-20x Purestrains
1x Chimera
1x Flyrant
1x Magus
1x Iconward

So with 7 reserves I'd have to pull one of the patriarchs from reserves....


What do you guys think, spelling this out I'm really thinking the Biovores might be better and 10x stealers would let me pick up the random Neurothrope Auxiliary. I'd only have 5 CP but I could ambush all of my 20x purestrains so reserves would look more like
Deployed:
Chimera (Magus, Icon, 10x Stealers)
Neuro
Flyrant
3x Biovores

Reserves
3-20x Purestrains
2x Patriarchs
1x Iconward

So each ambush would have a character to join them.

As for powers, I'd have nearly all powers in both armies and smites whenever that was more useful. The biovores would effectively be long range smites or I could walk them up as diversions purposely shooting with the likelihood to miss and placing spores down. I'm not sure if its better to double up on something like Mass Hypnosis or to leave it one of each on the GSC side, I used the Might from Beyond to really good effect against the all Custodes army I faced. Any tips on what type of matchups I might want to choose differently? I also figured giving Magus the Mind Control was a good idea because I'd allocate wounds to him before any patriarchs with the unquestioning loyalty ability so hes allocative wounds on top of being able to cast and giving me a ton of extra denials if for some gods awful reason someone was casting more than me.

I like the single chimera as a slightly quicker taxi for the characters if I accidentally ambush on the wrong side of the table, the stealers are super fast so i can just pick up the character and get him going, and I was considering leaving the second iconward in the taxi if he wasn't needed to operate the lasgun arrays.

 Niiai wrote:
Does the hice crone cost to many of the army points, compared to it's cost in points? At 8, it should cost closer to 160? But it is only 145?

I am pretty sure the Crone costs something like 156. You might have missed some points, for example the Scything Wings?


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@Lance845
You forgot to add the Tyranid Warriors in the first posting and the Maleceptor is not really enclosed in the spoilers.
Do you already have a new laptop?