luke1705 wrote:
Yep barebones detachment. I don't think they add a whole ton to my army; while the guns of AM do

I wouldn't mind considering a min GSC detachment for CA distraction upfield. Too much CP loss for my liking.
But that list is similar to something that I have been working out too.

They have not clarified if we can take 2 models of Tyrant Guard , and not min 3 yet right?

 Astmeister wrote:
Thanks for the report!
For me personally the list is really too much AM and too little Tyranids. It might be that the AM parts add a lot to your army, but at what cost? You are barely playing Tyranids anymore....

But this is just my personal preference.

Trust me, I understand those feels. This is only my super competitive Nids list. Otherwise, I have no problem just running it down mid and saying "what are guns? I have plenty of claws!"

What I'd really like to try is an all Genestealer list. Like the one below:

Patriarch
Patriarch
Broodlord
Malanthrope

20 Nid Stealers
20 Nid Stealers
20 Nid Stealers
20 GSC Stealers
20 GSC Stealers

5 CP because I have exactly the wrong amount of HQ's RIP. If I wanted to make it more competitive, I'd forsake everything I believe in and grab a unit of Rippers to allow me to put the 4th HQ in a different detachment.

In anything except hammer and anvil, the Tyranid Stealers are surely charging turn 2, and the GSC units should both be looking at a 9" charge turn 1, or better if you rolled well. The CP to mitigate a poor roll is huge. If you have to use CP to re-roll cult ambush for 1 GSC unit, could you at that point opt to just keep the other unit in reserves to make sure you can use a re-roll on their cult ambush if need be? Although TBH if you get a good cult ambush roll, most of the time you're going to obliterate the screening unit, especially with a Patriarch in tow. So I think you almost always do 1 purestrain unit turn 1 and 1 unit turn 2


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deshkar wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
Yep barebones detachment. I don't think they add a whole ton to my army; while the guns of AM do

I wouldn't mind considering a min GSC detachment for CA distraction upfield. Too much CP loss for my liking.
But that list is similar to something that I have been working out too.

They have not clarified if we can take 2 models of Tyrant Guard , and not min 3 yet right?

No FAQ yet, but I'm just using what they wrote in the matched play section. My assumption is that we get greater list-building flexibility when we use points. And that was the unit size in 7th so I doubt it'll be FAQ'd that the minimum unit size is 3 very much.

Bellow is Zande4 post. All credits to him for doing all the math. I am just adding dividing the cost of the unit to the number of dead models. I also updated the cost of the tyranofex as it closk in at 225 when you add in the powerfull limbs that are mandatory. Lastly I converted the squad of warriors with devourers into a new unit with gaints. They run the same numbers, only cheaper.


Some mathhammer for all.

*Note I used the +1 to hit modifier on all Barbed Strangler shots as it was assuming we were always shooting at +10 models.

The Horrors are crazy durable but they're also the only ones here without a way to bypass LD. Tyrannofex looks good on paper but he's all 18'' range and standing still is not going to be an option 70% of the time.

x2 Dakkafex with x4 Devourers each = 194 points

6.67 Conscripts per turn points per wound (ppw) 29,1
6.67 Ork Boys per turn ppw 29,1
5 Brimestone Horrors per turn ppw 38,8
3.33 Brimestone Horrors with Changeling buff per turn ppw 58,2
8.33 Kroot / Hounds / Gants per turn ppw 23,3
6.67 Poxwalkers per turn ppw 29,1

x2 Dakkafex with x4 Deathspitters each = 218 points

8.33 Conscripts per turn ppw 26,2
8 Ork Boys per turn ppw 27,2
5 Brimestone Horrors per turn ppw 43,6
3.33 Brimestone Horrors with Changeling buff per turn ppw 65,5
10 Kroot / Hounds / Gants per turn ppw 21,8
6.67 Poxwalkers per turn ppw 32,7

T-Fex w/ FBH & Stinger Salvo standing still = 225 points

11.11 Conscripts per turn ppw 20,2
13.78 Ork Boys per turn ppw 16,3
8 Brimestone Horrors per turn ppw 28,1
5.33 Brimestone Horrors with Changeling buff per turn ppw 42,2
13.78 Kroot / Hounds / Gants per turn ppw 16,3
10.67 Poxwalkers per turn ppw 21

T-Fex w/ FBH & Stinger Salvo having moved = 225 points

5.56 Conscripts per turn ppw 40,5
6.89 Ork Boys per turn ppw 32,6
4 Brimestone Horrors per turn ppw 56,2
2.67 Brimestone Horrors with Changeling buff per turn ppw 84,4
6.89 Kroot / Hounds / Gants per turn ppw 32,6
5.33 Poxwalkers per turn ppw 42

x9 Warriors with Devourers = 216 points

6 Conscripts per turn ppw 36
5.63 Ork Boys per turn ppw 38,4
4.5 Brimestone Horrors per turn ppw 48
3 Brimestone Horrors with Changeling buff per turn ppw 72
7.5 Kroot / Hounds / Gants per turn ppw 28,8
6 Poxwalkers per turn ppw 36

x6 Warriors with Devourers + x3 Warriors with Barbed Stranglers = 249 points

7.89 Conscripts per turn ppw 31,5
8.42 Ork Boys per turn ppw 29,6
5.33 Brimestone Horrors per turn ppw 46,7
3.75 Brimestone Horrors with Changeling buff per turn ppw 66,4
8.75 Kroot / Hounds / Gants per turn ppw 28,5
7.11 Poxwalkers per turn ppw 35

x9 Warriors with Deathspitters = 249 points

7.5 Conscripts per turn ppw 33,2
9 Ork Boys per turn ppw 27,7
4.5 Brimestone Horrors per turn ppw 55,3
3 Brimestone Horrors with Changeling buff per turn ppw 83
9 Kroot / Hounds / Gants per turn ppw 27,7
6 Poxwalkers per turn ppw 41,5

x6 Warriors with Deathspitters + x3 Warriors with Barbed Stranglers = 270 points ppw

8.89 Conscripts per turn ppw 30,4
10.67 Ork Boys per turn ppw 25,2
5.33 Brimestone Horrors per turn ppw 50,6
3.75 Brimestone Horrors with Changeling buff per turn ppw 72
13.50 Kroot / Hounds / Gants per turn ppw 20
7.11 Poxwalkers per turn ppw 38

x9 Termagaunts with Dea = 108 points

6 Conscripts per turn ppw 18
5.63 Ork Boys per turn ppw 19,8
4.5 Brimestone Horrors per turn ppw 24
3 Brimestone Horrors with Changeling buff per turn ppw 36
7.5 Kroot / Hounds / Gants per turn ppw 14,4
6 Poxwalkers per turn ppw 18

To summarice, the cheapest for killing
Conscripts : Termagaunts Devourers 18
Ork Boys : T-Fex w/ FBH & Stinger Salvo standing stil 16,3
Brimestone Horrors : Termagaunt Devourers 24
Brimestone Horrors with Changeling buff : Termagaunt Devourers 36
Kroot / Hounds / Gants : Termagaunt Devourers 14,4
Poxwalkers : Termagaunt Devourers 18

So for the most bang for your buck, field a lot of Termagaunts with Deathspitters. I have not factored inn any re-rolls from the living amunition rule. Brood progenitor from a Tervigon might also make them better. Deliver them by Trygon, Trygon prime, walk them bare or walk them with a Tervigon to reinforce them. That being said, they are also the easiest to kill on our list, costing 12 point for T3 1W.

Really suprisingly the Tyranofex standing stil comes in first place on Ork Boys, and second place on all entries bar the brimestone horrors. But only when it stands stil. When it walks it is very expensive per wound. Could be good with adrenal glands for a first turn run, or with a swarmlord for a giant advancement turn 1.

Second place are the carnifexes. But they each edge out a little bit vs each other depending on the targets.

The warriors came out really expensive. But they do offer a few things the rest of the contesters do not provide. They have synapse. You need synapse somewhere in your army. They are the only once in this test with guns at range 36. That could mean shooting in turn 1 and 2 to soften up some targets. Lastly they are much better in mellee then any of ther other contestents if you slap on some boneswords or other mellee weapons in there.

Depending on points values there will come a point where a tyranid prime will be justefied by the mathhammer if you go the warriors rout. At what point that is, I do not know.

I have not taken into acount how hard there is to kill any of these.

PS: If anybody wanne do more math, please copy paste the numbers so we have one place with all the numbers for quick reference.

 killerpenguin wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Awesome work dude. Add Devilgants please

Correct me if I'm wrong. Did some mathhammer of the top of my head here.

30 gants x 3 shots = 90 shots - 45 hits - 22,5 wounds - 7,5 saves - 15 dead - 240 pts

That is nice. However, you did not say what enemy you were caculating against here. From the save I assume GEQ, but the wound roll says MEQ. So you are basically using Necron Warriors here. Is this intentional? I am pretty sure though that you did not take the living ammunition special rule into account...

My caclutation says:
GEQ = 23.33 dead
MEQ = 8.75 dead

Presumably it would be better to drop a troop of 15 Devgaunts + 15 Fleshborer-Gaunts anyway.

Astmeister, look at the post above yours. You can se devilgaunts there.

 killerpenguin wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Awesome work dude. Add Devilgants please

Correct me if I'm wrong. Did some mathhammer of the top of my head here.

30 gants x 3 shots = 90 shots - 45 hits - 22,5 wounds - 7,5 saves - 15 dead - 240 pts

Factor in the reroll 1's to hit and wound and that should be up to 18 dead. Clearly our best shooting options. Sadly...This guys are a pain in the but to build in paint lots of :(. I currently only have 60. I think that nember probably needs to be closer to 120. Oh and devs are str 4 - so a lot more than that. Post above says 23.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
gaunts can't take deathspitter correct? Just devs?

 Niiai wrote:
Astmeister, look at the post above yours. You can se devilgaunts there.

So did you take Devourers or Deathspitters? Gaunts cannot take Deathspitters and they are clearly better. So you might have to do it again.
Also the Devilgaunts loose a lot of firepower, when models are lost. This doesn't matter of course, when you deep strike in. However, a Carnifex with 2x Deathspitters has S7, which can be huge against Rhinos and such.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 luke1705 wrote:


Trust me, I understand those feels. This is only my super competitive Nids list. Otherwise, I have no problem just running it down mid and saying "what are guns? I have plenty of claws!"

What I'd really like to try is an all Genestealer list. Like the one below:

Patriarch
Patriarch
Broodlord
Malanthrope

20 Nid Stealers
20 Nid Stealers
20 Nid Stealers
20 GSC Stealers
20 GSC Stealers

5 CP because I have exactly the wrong amount of HQ's RIP. If I wanted to make it more competitive, I'd forsake everything I believe in and grab a unit of Rippers to allow me to put the 4th HQ in a different detachment.

In anything except hammer and anvil, the Tyranid Stealers are surely charging turn 2, and the GSC units should both be looking at a 9" charge turn 1, or better if you rolled well. The CP to mitigate a poor roll is huge. If you have to use CP to re-roll cult ambush for 1 GSC unit, could you at that point opt to just keep the other unit in reserves to make sure you can use a re-roll on their cult ambush if need be? Although TBH if you get a good cult ambush roll, most of the time you're going to obliterate the screening unit, especially with a Patriarch in tow. So I think you almost always do 1 purestrain unit turn 1 and 1 unit turn 2

That is of course much more tyranid. ;-) But I personally prefer to use TAC lists, which have a healthy mixture of shooting and claws. The above list is too one dimensional for me, but that also depends if you like to just rush to your opponent and slaughter everything.

I would play something like this:

Brigade Detachment

Hive Tyrant with wings (1) - 196pts
1 Hive Tyrant: Monstrous rending claws,Two deathspitter with slimer maggots,Prehensile pincer tail,Adrenal glands

Broodlord (1) - 162pts
1 Broodlord: Monstrous rending claws

Malanthrope (1) - 90pts
1 Malanthrope: Grasping tail

Tyranid Warriors (3) - 94pts
2 Tyranid Warrior: Deathspitter, Lashwhip + Bonesword, Adrenal Glands
1 Tyranid Warrior: Venom cannon, Lashwhip + Bonesword, Adrenal Glands

Genestealers (20) - 240pts
20 Genestealer: Rending claws

Genestealers (12) - 192pts
12 Genestealer: Rending claws, Toxin Sacs

Termagants (30) - 120pts
30 Termagant: Fleshborer

Hormagaunts (10) - 60pts
10 Hormagaunt, Adrenal Glands

Ripper Swarms (3) - 33pts

Lictor (1) - 45pts
1 Lictor: Flesh hooks,Grasping talons,Rending claws

Lictor (1) - 45pts
1 Lictor: Flesh hooks,Grasping talons,Rending claws

Hive Guard (3) - 144pts
3 Hive Guard: Impaler cannon

Mucolid Spores (1) - 20pts
1 Mucolid Spore

Mucolid Spores (1) - 20pts
1 Mucolid Spore

Mucolid Spores (1) - 20pts
1 Mucolid Spore

Exocrine (1) - 228pts
1 Exocrine: Bio plasmic cannon,Powerful limbs

Trygon (1) - 188pts
1 Trygon: Bio-electric pulse,Three massive scything talons,Toxinspike,Adrenal glands, Toxin sacs

Stone Crusher Carnifexes (1) - 104pts
1 Stone Crusher Carnifex: Two pairs of wrecker claws, thresher scythe, bioplasma

12 Command Points

The list is far from being competitive, but you and your opponent will probably have fun in a beer & pretzel game. Which I like most anyway...

I can't really decipher that maths its a bit messy. But seems that Devilgants are #1 shooting unit, which doesn't surprise me. TFexs are a real brick of wounds and shooting rolled up in one, but they can't take Trygon tunnels and pods are expensive, so they are probably worse honestly.


I think I'm just going to load up on Devilgants tbh they are legit

2k points
Supreme command
HQ
Flyrant - Claws-Heavy Venom-Adrenal-Toxin.
Flyrant - Claws-Heavy Venom-Adrenal-Toxin.
Flyrant - Claws-Heavy Venom-Adrenal-Toxin.


Batallion
HQ
Flyrant - Claws-Heavy Venom-Adrenal-Toxin.
Flyrant - Claws-Heavy Venom-Adrenal-Toxin.
Malanthrope

Troops
30x Terms - 16x dev, 14x fleshbore
30x Terms - 16x dev, 14x fleshbore
30x Terms - 16x dev, 14x fleshbore
30x Terms - 16x dev, 14x fleshbore
4x Warriors Deathspitters, Fleshhooks, Adrenal, Rending claws.

Fixed - added malanthrope in exchange for the venomthropes. (I converted one of these guys out of a flying hive tail, some exocrine box stuff, venomthrope tenticles, and a carnifex body. It's pretty cool)

 Xenomancers wrote:
2k points
Supreme command
HQ
Flyrant - Claws-Heavy Venom-Adrenal-Toxin.
Flyrant - Claws-Heavy Venom-Adrenal-Toxin.
Flyrant - Claws-Heavy Venom-Adrenal-Toxin.
Venomthropes

Batallion
HQ
Flyrant - Claws-Heavy Venom-Adrenal-Toxin.
Flyrant - Claws-Heavy Venom-Adrenal-Toxin.

Troops
30x Terms - 15x dev, 15x fleshbore
30x Terms - 15x dev, 15x fleshbore
30x Terms - 15x dev, 15x fleshbore
30x Terms - 15x dev, 15x fleshbore
4x Warriors Deathspitters, Fleshhooks, Adrenal, Rending claws.

looks really nice but be aware that Venomthropes dont shroud the Flyrants, you'll need to cap a warrior and pick up a Malanthrope for that

 SHUPPET wrote:
I can't really decipher that maths its a bit messy. But seems that Devilgants are #1 shooting unit, which doesn't surprise me. TFexs are a real brick of wounds and shooting rolled up in one, but they can't take Trygon tunnels and pods are expensive, so they are probably worse honestly.


I think I'm just going to load up on Devilgants tbh they are legit

The maths on Devilgant (or Deathspittergants?) is a bit wrong, but the picture stays the same. They are very good against everything. But they also need a delivery mechanism, because they die very easily, thus loose firepower and are not even very cheap. But since most people will take a Trygon (Prime) anyway, I think they are a good idea.

60 more termagants are a nice delivery method for 30 devilgants. 20 fleshborers and 10 devilgaunts per unit gives a lot of survivability while adding some more firepower and 60 bodies.
240 points are a lot, that's for sure, but they do a great job.

I personally went with 20 spinefists, because i don't find the fleshborers "alien" enough for my nids, but in the end they work the same.

For a cheap version go with a 15-15 composition, now you are paying only 120 points.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
2k points
Supreme command
HQ
Flyrant - Claws-Heavy Venom-Adrenal-Toxin.
Flyrant - Claws-Heavy Venom-Adrenal-Toxin.
Flyrant - Claws-Heavy Venom-Adrenal-Toxin.
Venomthropes

Batallion
HQ
Flyrant - Claws-Heavy Venom-Adrenal-Toxin.
Flyrant - Claws-Heavy Venom-Adrenal-Toxin.

Troops
30x Terms - 15x dev, 15x fleshbore
30x Terms - 15x dev, 15x fleshbore
30x Terms - 15x dev, 15x fleshbore
30x Terms - 15x dev, 15x fleshbore
4x Warriors Deathspitters, Fleshhooks, Adrenal, Rending claws.

looks really nice but be aware that Venomthropes dont shroud the Flyrants, you'll need to cap a warrior and pick up a Malanthrope for that

Humm - i did know that but I also thought supreme command required an elite choice - it doesn't so a Mapplethorpe is probably a better choice. Though the wording of it's shrouding mechnic specifies modles. How would that affect a unit of termagaunts? The termagaunts are the ones that really need the -1 to hit because they only 6+ saves. I'd love for everyunit to have it turn 1 though!

 Xenomancers wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
2k points
Supreme command
HQ
Flyrant - Claws-Heavy Venom-Adrenal-Toxin.
Flyrant - Claws-Heavy Venom-Adrenal-Toxin.
Flyrant - Claws-Heavy Venom-Adrenal-Toxin.
Venomthropes

Batallion
HQ
Flyrant - Claws-Heavy Venom-Adrenal-Toxin.
Flyrant - Claws-Heavy Venom-Adrenal-Toxin.

Troops
30x Terms - 15x dev, 15x fleshbore
30x Terms - 15x dev, 15x fleshbore
30x Terms - 15x dev, 15x fleshbore
30x Terms - 15x dev, 15x fleshbore
4x Warriors Deathspitters, Fleshhooks, Adrenal, Rending claws.

looks really nice but be aware that Venomthropes dont shroud the Flyrants, you'll need to cap a warrior and pick up a Malanthrope for that

Humm - i did know that but I also thought supreme command required an elite choice - it doesn't so a Mapplethorpe is probably a better choice. Though the wording of it's shrouding mechnic specifies modles. How would that affect a unit of termagaunts? The termagaunts are the ones that really need the -1 to hit because they only 6+ saves. I'd love for everyunit to have it turn 1 though!

It has already been discussed by several playtesters of 8th edition that this is surely a mistake by FW and they will change it. Because the rules of 8th do not account for hitting models in a unit individually, so the text based on models hitting on -1 does not make sense.
tl;dr They mean units!

I've been reading through this thread alot, but i haven't found a conclusion on the GEQ screen problem. How do we clear them? Trygon and devilgants?

 killerpenguin wrote:
I've been reading through this thread alot, but i haven't found a conclusion on the GEQ screen problem. How do we clear them? Trygon and devilgants?

They are the best bet against cheap mass infantry. However the combo costs a lot and the trygon will probably stand in the way, where he cannot attack anything usefull. The Devgaunts do 23 damage in one turn, which might be enough to get through 30 conscripts, but 40+ might be problematic since they can still screen very well.

More Dakka is just possible by adding AM to your Tyranid army, which is a no-go for me at least.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maybe a Tyranocyte with stranglethorne canons is even better. It is cheaper than a trygon and can kill infantry also very well.
A Tyrannocyte with Stranglethorne does 4.86 damage on GEQ. Not so bad and certainly better than the Trygon, while cheaper. However, you will loose 10 gants due to the limited transport capability of the pod. Hmmm...

Edit: I updated the numbers on the gaunts now. I had messed up the names of devourers and deathspitters. I just came back with 8th edition so I am a bit rusty.

I am really supriced the tyranofex is pulling it's weight. I expected it to be a real dud. It was also one of the models I bought before taking a break. I glued mine up just yesterday with the flamer one. 1d6 autohits S7 AP-1 D3 wounds sounded good vs rhinoes and marines. But perhaps It should have been the dakka gun now that the numbers are in.

Termagaunts seems to be king, with tyranofex and carnifexes on 2nd place. And warriors trailing behind unless you use the synapse/range/or close combat potensial somehow.

How is the drop pod for shooting at crowds? With the barbed strangler it can deliver a tyranofex.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
2k points
Supreme command
HQ
Flyrant - Claws-Heavy Venom-Adrenal-Toxin.
Flyrant - Claws-Heavy Venom-Adrenal-Toxin.
Flyrant - Claws-Heavy Venom-Adrenal-Toxin.
Venomthropes

Batallion
HQ
Flyrant - Claws-Heavy Venom-Adrenal-Toxin.
Flyrant - Claws-Heavy Venom-Adrenal-Toxin.

Troops
30x Terms - 15x dev, 15x fleshbore
30x Terms - 15x dev, 15x fleshbore
30x Terms - 15x dev, 15x fleshbore
30x Terms - 15x dev, 15x fleshbore
4x Warriors Deathspitters, Fleshhooks, Adrenal, Rending claws.

looks really nice but be aware that Venomthropes dont shroud the Flyrants, you'll need to cap a warrior and pick up a Malanthrope for that

Funny. My warning would have been "looks good but be aware that the venomthropes can be targeted, so you'll need to pick up a Malanthrope for that


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Termagants probably are our best bet for cheap dakka, but for clearing out screens you'll need to bring a pod, or play at a disadvantage by keeping your dudes in reserve for a turn or two. The pod itself isn't bad at that, but it gets expensive.

FYI I don't have a good solution for this, hence why I turned to guard. Tbh, I think our best best is cult ambushing neophytes....wait can any squads still take all hand flamers?

All Hand flamers is only possible for Hybrids and Metamorphs, but not for the Neophytes. They can just have normal 2 flamers.

Hmm so the hand flamers are d3 autohits and only 6" range. I think a lasgun or an autogun (literally the same profile) is the way to go. You average as many hits as there are dudes in the squad on almost every CA roll, and you can use a CP re-roll to mitigate a bad roll if need be. That's .066 dead guardsmen per point spent on neophytes. Even though the devilguants have more shots, they cost almost twice as much, resulting in only .049 dead guardsmen per point spent on devilguants. This math assumes the neophytes are within 12". Furthermore, neophytes have 2 things going for you:

1) even if they go second, they're in reserve so your opponent can't kill them
2) they pop up and have the ability to be in rapid fire range (of in range at all) a lot more than the devilguants will be, especially if we're talking about turn 1.

I could attempt to factor in the likelihood that your CA roll would result in you being within 12" of the enemy, but it's a bit of a crapshoot because the 1 and 2 results require you to make assumptions about the opponent's deployment. Suffice to say that with a re-roll, your efficiency will still be at or above the devilguant numbers and without a re-roll, you might drop a little bit below them.

But the thing that sells it for me is that pretty consistently (extremely consistently with only 1 unit) you will be able to rapid fire on the turn you cult ambush in. The devilgaunts would say the opposite: "on turn 1, its extremely unlikely that we'll be able to shoot at a screening unit, and if we can, it's probably hitting on 5's"

In conclusion, I'll leave you with the number you want: if you're shooting at a squad of 30 GEQ (a nice beefy screening unit) you'll need to bring 90 neophytes to kill it to the man on turn 1. If you're looking to just blow a giant hole in it to assault through....I'd probably bring 60

List I'm settling around:

1999 pts:

Flyrant, Rending Claws, AG, TS
Flyrant, Rending Claws, AG, TS
Flyrant, Rending Claws, AG, TS
Flyrant, Rending Claws, AG, TS

30x Termagants w/ Devourers
20x Genestealers
3x Rippers

9x Raveners w/ Devourers
9x Raveners w/ Devourers

Mawloc
Trygon


Flyrants go after the heaviest things on the field, Raveners and Trygon deploy to threaten Infantry. Trygon carries Termagants but maybe Genestealers if the enemy is light on things to kill them. There's nearly 50 Devourers in there so thats a decent chunk of alpha and Raveners should do numbers on Infantry at least until Stealers get there. Mawloc can force things not to clump and hopefully just disrupt the enemy. Gonna have to see how it plays but it feels like it should be capable. I'm staying away from Stonecrushers until their rules get clarified.

Shuppet how is the math of raveners with spinefists insteasd of devourers? While only S3 instead of 4 and no AP, you do get 1 more shot with them. And you can shoot in CC.

From a rules perspective, can the tyrant put wounds on other models because he is a character? I thought being an MC prevented that?

 Niiai wrote:
Shuppet how is the math of raveners with spinefists insteasd of devourers? While only S3 instead of 4 and no AP, you do get 1 more shot with them. And you can shoot in CC.

From a rules perspective, can the tyrant put wounds on other models because he is a character? I thought being an MC prevented that?

Spinefists might be even better, I might just try that.





I meant they may not be able to target the Hive Tyrants for being characters. Does being an MC prevent that?

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
Shuppet how is the math of raveners with spinefists insteasd of devourers? While only S3 instead of 4 and no AP, you do get 1 more shot with them. And you can shoot in CC.

From a rules perspective, can the tyrant put wounds on other models because he is a character? I thought being an MC prevented that?

Spinefists might be even better, I might just try that.





I meant they may not be able to target the Hive Tyrants for being characters. Does being an MC prevent that?

They have too many wounds. 10 or more ignores the restriction on shooting characters.

Has anyone done a biovore vs hive guard comparison? 3 mortal wounds at 108 points vs 6 cover ignoring S8 ap-2 d3 wounds that don't need LOS (144 points).

I'm not sure how you assess which unit to bring.

C1tric wrote:
Has anyone done a biovore vs hive guard comparison? 3 mortal wounds at 108 points vs 6 cover ignoring S8 ap-2 d3 wounds that don't need LOS (144 points).

I'm not sure how you assess which unit to bring.

I would argue that is impossible to calculate, because a lot of what Biovore's bring is beyond simple math. Biovore unit getting charged is likely to create its own barrier preventing the charge. Biovores missing cause deep-strike blockers, and speed-bumps. They do more than wound, and I think people haven't fully figured them out quite yet. I have a feeling they'll be this edition's "Lictor Shame" where someone unlocks the mystery and throws people for a loop at an event.

If you wanne calculate biovores just do averadge wounds on the once who hit.

Then take a seperate one if all of the misses alsp makes a wound.

Then you have minimum and maximum averadge.

Then do regular hivegiards.

I would also like so see how the tesla hiveguards work out. I think they might be a hidden gem. Some other armies ran mathhammer on the tesla weapons and became posetive.

 Niiai wrote:
If you wanne calculate biovores just do averadge wounds on the once who hit.

Then take a seperate one if all of the misses alsp makes a wound.

Then you have minimum and maximum averadge.

Then do regular hivegiards.

I would also like so see how the tesla hiveguards work out. I think they might be a hidden gem. Some other armies ran mathhammer on the tesla weapons and became posetive.

Like I said, Biovores are a weird one those, where they are more than their wounds. Misses create new tactical opportunities or provide other difficult to quantify benefits.

Fragile wrote:


They have too many wounds. 10 or more ignores the restriction on shooting characters.

thanks, corrected it

You can stil do it:

Chance to hit, standing stil ((0,5)*(((1*0)+(4*1)+(6*2))/6))=0,5 mortal wounds per biovore shot.

If you miss you will do an averadge 0,5 mortal wounds.*

*Mind you I assume that the missed spore mine actualy makes it into damage range. I find this very unlikly considering you can split fire, and the charge face is after the shooting phase.

So 36 points for 0,5 mortal wounds = 72 damage for 1 mortal wound on average. 36 damage for one mortal wound if the spore mine that misses makes it into 'mellee'.

And now you just calculate that vs hive guards. Easy. (Hint, the biovores do not come out very well I belive.)

I'm so sad we lost our Thorax weapons. Everywhere I look I keep thinking, "Gee if only we had some more flamer options".

If your fear is storm ravens, you might consider vengeance weapon batteries. The quad Lascannon is fairly good against storm ravens.

I'd like your thoughts on some of the units that I haven't seen much discussions on:
- Toxicrine: He looked really interesting at first, but I've cooled on him since. I've got one NIB, and can't decide how much rush to build him.
- Crones: 1st turn charge ability. Seemingly a great tarpit.
- Harpy: Similar to Crone but with shooting / bombing options. Is it good? Too fragile?
- Shrikes: Better warriors?
- Maleceptor: He is still pretty bad, right?
- Zoenthropes: WTF? They really don't seem very impressive to me. Our worst unit?
- The Red Terror: Is he worth it to buff raveners, or would you rather have more raveners?
- Raveners: They seem pretty good. 5 points cheaper than before (with Rcs), and they deep strike
- Gargoyles: They really lost alot this edition it feels like.

And a stupid question. When attacking with a Trygon Prime in the fight phase how many dice do I roll for his scything talons?

Nobody knows about the Trygon Prime attacks. Wait for FAQ.

tag8833 wrote:
I'm so sad we lost our Thorax weapons. Everywhere I look I keep thinking, "Gee if only we had some more flamer options".

If your fear is storm ravens, you might consider vengeance weapon batteries. The quad Lascannon is fairly good against storm ravens.

I'd like your thoughts on some of the units that I haven't seen much discussions on:
- Toxicrine: He looked really interesting at first, but I've cooled on him since. I've got one NIB, and can't decide how much rush to build him.
- Crones: 1st turn charge ability. Seemingly a great tarpit.
- Harpy: Similar to Crone but with shooting / bombing options. Is it good? Too fragile?
- Shrikes: Better warriors?
- Maleceptor: He is still pretty bad, right?
- Zoenthropes: WTF? They really don't seem very impressive to me. Our worst unit?
- The Red Terror: Is he worth it to buff raveners, or would you rather have more raveners?
- Raveners: They seem pretty good. 5 points cheaper than before (with Rcs), and they deep strike
- Gargoyles: They really lost alot this edition it feels like.

And a stupid question. When attacking with a Trygon Prime in the fight phase how many dice do I roll for his scything talons?

Yeah I've been reading that over and I couldn't tell you. I'm just going with +1 attack until I hear otherwise since it's the least powerful interpretation.

I'm in the same boat as you about that Toxicrene. I like the Dimachaeron better for any role that the Toxicrene would have fulfilled, but outside of FW, I think he's our best bet for some good melee other than OOE/Carnifexes, but they are good for different purposes.

Crones really aren't a great tarpit. Nothing is a great tarpit because anything can just leave combat if it wants to. It's like a discount harpy, but better vs hordes. The turn 1 charge is nice if you don't have anything else to do that with, especially because it can fall back and still shoot. Same with the Harpy but I like his weapons better because they fill a niche that we need more.

I'll probably never use shrikes (or warriors) but that's personal preference. They are a ton better now and pretty good synapse, but they're not characters. 10/10 would rather take a Prime for most purposes. Or a broodlord even.

Maleceptor is greatly improved, but he had a lot to improve from. Absolutely usable now as a durable smite platform, sort of like a bunch of zoans crunched into one. He's also much better in close combat.

Zoanthropes are good in squads of 4 or more. I think they're also a lot more durable for the points than people give them credit for now that there's no instant death. They're still in a weird niche where synapse is done better by other things and psychics are done as well or better by other things, but they can do both pretty well. I haven't used them much but that's just because I don't really need them in my lists.

Raveners are terrifying. And awesome. If I had 6 or more I'd probably grab the red terror as a force multiplier.

Gargoyles are fast units that can fly over screening units and assault things behind those units. Double moving them with Swarmlord is hugely underrated. They're also a very cheap fast screening unit. A lot to love actually.

Gargoyles are a great screening unit because they can shoot, take an assault, then fall back behind the unit that assaulted them and shoot while letting our termagaunts shoot them.

 luke1705 wrote:
Crones really aren't a great tarpit. Nothing is a great tarpit because anything can just leave combat if it wants to.

Tarpitting works differently. If you engage a land raider it means that land raider can't do much of anything but leave combat. I've been playing Scions. If someone brought a crone against me, and multi-charged 2 Tauroxes on turn 1, I'd be in a bad way. Sure it would only do a HP or 2, but that is alot of fire power that I can't use for a turn.

 luke1705 wrote:
Zoanthropes are good in squads of 4 or more. I think they're also a lot more durable for the points than people give them credit for now that there's no instant death. They're still in a weird niche where synapse is done better by other things and psychics are done as well or better by other things, but they can do both pretty well. I haven't used them much but that's just because I don't really need them in my lists

People are really focused on mortal wounds. For 160 points I feel like I can get more damage output out of something else, even though it probably won't be Mortal wounds. Maybe I'm wrong.

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
Gargoyles are a great screening unit because they can shoot, take an assault, then fall back behind the unit that assaulted them and shoot while letting our termagaunts shoot them.

That was somewhat my thinking on the Crone. But also, why not just screen with Termies? They have much better damage output.


Let's talk carnifexen. I'm not really feeling the Dakkafex, so it seems the Stonecrusher is better than the base carnifex, right? And It still benefits from OOE's bonus. Is bioplasm worth it? Thresher Scythe or Bone Mace? I'm leaning Thresher Scythe even though it is more expensive.

Also, on the topic of being confused how many attacks something gets, the Bio Flail? The way I read it, you use it once in addition to your normal attacks, am I wrong?

 luke1705 wrote:

tag8833 wrote:
I'm so sad we lost our Thorax weapons. Everywhere I look I keep thinking, "Gee if only we had some more flamer options".

If your fear is storm ravens, you might consider vengeance weapon batteries. The quad Lascannon is fairly good against storm ravens.

I'd like your thoughts on some of the units that I haven't seen much discussions on:
- Toxicrine: He looked really interesting at first, but I've cooled on him since. I've got one NIB, and can't decide how much rush to build him.
- Crones: 1st turn charge ability. Seemingly a great tarpit.
- Harpy: Similar to Crone but with shooting / bombing options. Is it good? Too fragile?
- Shrikes: Better warriors?
- Maleceptor: He is still pretty bad, right?
- Zoenthropes: WTF? They really don't seem very impressive to me. Our worst unit?
- The Red Terror: Is he worth it to buff raveners, or would you rather have more raveners?
- Raveners: They seem pretty good. 5 points cheaper than before (with Rcs), and they deep strike
- Gargoyles: They really lost alot this edition it feels like.

And a stupid question. When attacking with a Trygon Prime in the fight phase how many dice do I roll for his scything talons?

Yeah I've been reading that over and I couldn't tell you. I'm just going with +1 attack until I hear otherwise since it's the least powerful interpretation.

I'm in the same boat as you about that Toxicrene. I like the Dimachaeron better for any role that the Toxicrene would have fulfilled, but outside of FW, I think he's our best bet for some good melee other than OOE/Carnifexes, but they are good for different purposes.

Crones really aren't a great tarpit. Nothing is a great tarpit because anything can just leave combat if it wants to. It's like a discount harpy, but better vs hordes. The turn 1 charge is nice if you don't have anything else to do that with, especially because it can fall back and still shoot. Same with the Harpy but I like his weapons better because they fill a niche that we need more.

I'll probably never use shrikes (or warriors) but that's personal preference. They are a ton better now and pretty good synapse, but they're not characters. 10/10 would rather take a Prime for most purposes. Or a broodlord even.

Maleceptor is greatly improved, but he had a lot to improve from. Absolutely usable now as a durable smite platform, sort of like a bunch of zoans crunched into one. He's also much better in close combat.

Zoanthropes are good in squads of 4 or more. I think they're also a lot more durable for the points than people give them credit for now that there's no instant death. They're still in a weird niche where synapse is done better by other things and psychics are done as well or better by other things, but they can do both pretty well. I haven't used them much but that's just because I don't really need them in my lists.

Raveners are terrifying. And awesome. If I had 6 or more I'd probably grab the red terror as a force multiplier.

Gargoyles are fast units that can fly over screening units and assault things behind those units. Double moving them with Swarmlord is hugely underrated. They're also a very cheap fast screening unit. A lot to love actually.

Of the Mortal Wound units (Psykers, Biovore, Mawloc) 4 Zoanthropes do 4 mortal wounds a turn if they successfully cast. Better than anything else is matching for the points. However, 18" range unlike Biovores, and 5" movespeed unlike Tyrants or Flyrants, and no deepstrike unlike Mawloc makes it the hardest to apply. Also, ideal enemy needs to be the closest one, so this is more of a hamstring then you might think. One Zoanthrope dies and they lose half efficiency as well. You might be thinking about drop pod, but for the price of them + a pod you could get 2x Flyrants, and do those 4x Mortal Wounds as well except with much nicer and more reliable bodies attached, so I don't know if there is a way to make Zopes a good unit at all in their current state.

Maleceptor seems even worse. 4 Zoanthropes are cheaper. This thing is slightly faster but only does 2 mortal wounds a turn. Has to be in 6" range of 4 units to threaten the regular 4 that Zoanthropes get which seems unlikely, and if it does happen probably gonna be on screen units etc who dont really care about mortal wounds anyway.

Shrikes are significantly more expensive Warriors that can't go in tunnels. Pass

Raveners are sick. Red Terror depends on how many Raveners you are running. At 2 full squads of 9 Raveners is basically the turning point where he is probably worth it over the first lot of Raveners. Also stops you from having to unlock a 3rd FA slot. Usable unit, but niche.

I won't comment in depth on the rest but I've looked into each of them none of them look too special, none of them are really outright as bad as the Maleceptor but all are pretty underwhelming tbh. Gargoyles might have a niche. Probably not though honestly.

Units that *I''m* eyeballing that no one's talking about really are:

Tyranid Prime, the cheapest HQ option, one that boosts Warriors, and one of two (the other being the Broodlord) that can't be picked out and chopped off easily. The downside is no psychic powers and, more importantly, no denial of psychic powers.

Tyranid Warriors, just a plain ol' Troops option, but when teamed up with a Prime, they get scary good. Can be taken in a larger group of cheap melee options but are better, I think, in small units with a pair of Deathspitters and a Venom Cannon to provide heavy weapons fire (essentially a pair of heavy bolters and a missile cannon/las launcher) ... they're cheap Devastators that can also fight in melee.

IMPORTANT NOTE, both the Prime and the Warriors are Infantry, so are shielded by Venomthropes. Also note that while you can shoot through friendly models, opposing models block line of sight through them. Thus, a layer or two of termagants in front of the warriors and primes make them further untargetable while allowing them to fire through.

Hormagaunts. Do they have a place anymore, betweem Gargoyles and Genestealers? How can they be used well?

Ripper Swarms. Not being talked about by *anyone*. At 11 points a model, can be used for taking objectives in the late game, or used to drop in behind your own lines to deny opposition Deep Strikes against your important things. Spinemaws ... useless? Probably, but shooting at models engaged in melee seems to be sometimes useful and, for that price, can you really go wrong?

Lictors - At Strengh 6 and dealing 2 wounds per hit, are they better tank/bike killers? They're still pretty bad about taking out a unit of infantry. Important note! Overwatch is fired at where you start yoru charge from. Most flamers are 8" range. If you start 9" away (or, well, 9.5"), then they can't hit you with them on overwatch. Also, if you're standing in cover when they fire overwatch, you get the armor save bonus, despite having to leave it and cross open terrain to get to the target. Useful? Also, super cheap way to fill up Elite slots.

Speaking of cheap ... Pyrovores! Anyone? Anyone at all? They're my favorite little guys (even if I had to build my own out of parts!), and they got better, but does anyone care? Being able to move 5", then Advance a D6, then fire 1D6 autohits at a unit at 10" with Strength 5, -1 AP ... for under 40 points. Did I mention that they're Infantry so get the bonuses for Venomthrope cover? Or that they can *easily* advance behind a line of Termagants or Warriors, then whip around to lay down the fire? They''re also shockingly good at chewing open Rhinos and leak mortal wounds on things when hurt or killed. Why is no one using these?

As for the Carnifex, I still can't figure out how to arm them. They're terribly inaccurate in both melee and shooting, and with only a Strength of 6 (12 with Crushing Claws if you want to whiff more) they're not even at that magical 14 to crack transports or Dreadnoughts. There's got to be a use for these guys, but I can't figure it out. Anyone have an idea?

Ripper swarms are excellent. Drop them down turn 3 to try and hide out for an end game objective or bring them down any turn you need to try and grab a far away objective. No one really talks about them because their function is very straightforward, but they absolutely win games. Easiest 33 points to spend in any list.

Carnifexes I think are best run as cheap guns or cheap melee (double scything talons, adrenal glands). You want to hunt multiwound infantry with the melee fex. The shooty variant is to kill cheap infantry units/pile on wounds at range. I don't think it's very good at the latter though. Stone crushers, for a marginal cost increase, are way better at melee in every respect and can even hunt tanks effectively.

Hormagants absolutely have a place. Want half of a Genestealer for half the cost? Have a hormagant! Bodies for days, and good in close quarters, especially because their pile and consolidate are each 6". Once you run into some screening units, you'll understand what a big deal that is.

Wakshaani, I do not think we are reading the same forum. All of those units get talked about.

I've been using both hormagaunts, zoans and lictors in my games, and here are my thoughts:

1) Hormagaunts will always be in my lists. I can't imagine playing without them, for 150 points they really shut down a lot of stuff. Also one of my favorite targets for catalyst.

2) Zoans. Zoans are better than what they look on paper, due to being a really bad target for the enemy. Play 5 of them. If you don't have a broodlord, these guys are the only psykers that will see the end of the match. Tyrants are all gone by turn 3. Killing zoans is hard and hardly remunerative, they are buffed by the venoms, are multiwound but with a 3++, which means that there are really few weapons in the game that are efficient at killing those guys (you want to avoid D2 and Dd3 weapons, but also high AP weapons). If you don't take down at least 6 wounds, you have wasted your shots, they are still at 100% efficency and can heal wounds. The 6th zoan is useless honestly, they get too low on the effort/reward meter for your opponent. The trick to playing 'nids is messing with the opponent target priority, so you want to avoid giving them easy choices. In any case, after losing the 4th zoan, they will get even lower on priority and will last until the last turn. This makes them perfect to cast catalyst, which is the power that you want until the last turn. Put onslaught on tyrants, they will die fast, but onslaught is best in turns 1 and 2.

3) Lictors are cheap for what they do. They have 4 wounds and the -1 to hit applies in melee! Sure don't expect to kill a lot of stuff with them, but if you want to tie up that devastator/sniper/necron warrior squad from turn 1, they are a nice choice. If you engage on an edge of their formation, 20 necron warriors will take a lot of time to kill it and will prefer to retreat. On the other hand, you can play 3 of them and deploy on the same target. For 135 points, this is a force that can do much more than just tie up stuff, devastator teams will disappear.

Guys I've posted in here a bit and followed but the lists are getting more diverse. I'm hoping someone can offer some advice on what I should be buying next. I should note I don't often fight horde armies (not one at the moment)

I've got 57 genestealers
Broodlord
3 warriors

Swarmlord
Trygon Prime
Exocrine

What should I get next to start rounding this list off, I think rippers many have said should be an auto take which at 33p I can't help but agree. Would people suggest one or two squads?

Or lictors or biovores or termegants to go with the trygon prime.

Jaq Draco lives wrote:
Guys I've posted in here a bit and followed but the lists are getting more diverse. I'm hoping someone can offer some advice on what I should be buying next. I should note I don't often fight horde armies (not one at the moment)

I've got 57 genestealers
Broodlord
3 warriors

Swarmlord
Trygon Prime
Exocrine

What should I get next to start rounding this list off, I think rippers many have said should be an auto take which at 33p I can't help but agree. Would people suggest one or two squads?

Or lictors or biovores or termegants to go with the trygon prime.

To be fair - you have a great list as it stands.

A Flyrant (melee variant is a good idea, they will do work). Biovores seem to be an effective choice.

Key thing however is to play the list as is and see what you enjoy, what's missing, what you don't like and go from there.

You can make a really great list with lots of stealers... or no stealers etc.

I'm thinking of making my Carnifexes more balanced with a single set of talons and 2 deathspitters. It's still pretty cheap and only slightly less effective in melee than a double talon fex, but now can help against flyers and those annoying infantry units that like to hang out in the upper floors of ruins. My local shop has a decent amount of ruins and our monsters can't leave the ground floor.

It's not a bad plan. It helps our biggest weakness (killing cheap infantry units) and it's still a lot of shots. I might also recommend gargoyles. Cheap fast units that can just keep assaulting those annoying shooting units. Even if they have fly, they have to leave the upper levels of the ruins to get more than 1" away from you.

 Niiai wrote:
Wakshaani, I do not think we are reading the same forum. All of those units get talked about.

I've not, but, I haven't chunked through the middle of the thread yet. Lots on Hive Tyrants and the rest of the Wound 10+ guys, some on Gargoyles, but Genestealers are getting more love (for good reason!) ... but not much on what I mentioned. I need to go back and check pages 10-25, see what I've missed tho.

Not sure how much I can add to this but here goes:

1)zoans have an effective movement of 6-11" because why would you not advance them?

2) bubble wrapping your opponents transports is a super relevant tactic with our mobs, especially on first turn charges. The new pilein and charge rules really work in our favor and you should never have to fear what's inside the transport with some savvy movements

3) zoans make a very scary distraction carnifex this time around that is surprisingly resilient.

4)a supreme command detachment with some magus(magi?) and maybe a malanthrope is a great extra filler point. If you want to unlock the AM detachment this could work with 2-3 magi and the icon-dude for near patriarch price while still giving you that delicious smite/hypnosis/denial and not being a filler unit (minus the cheaper icon dude)

5) A single unit of any threat will be wiped out. 2+ should be our motto. Want a harpy? Bring two we should also be maxing out many of our blobs with splitfire being a thing we should only bring msu to get cp. Between rules like living ammo and flurry of claws your just hurting yourself by bringing less

6) fun fact with the help of a gsc we can get the cheapest brigade for filler units and 9 cp (for around 500 points)

7)remember our own cp units, lictors/pyrovores, rippers, spores and biovores. Using the cheapo gsc hq we can set up a barebones brigade for around 600 points



Sorry for any typos my phone thinks it knows better than me -_-

I am not sure if a single og unit tyranofexes will be wiped out so fast. T8 is a lot.

On the flip side, I am not looking forward to necron monoliths.

Has anyone considered using biovores as one hell of a screening force for your slower assault troops? Maybe even zoanthropes or some of the bigger beastie that you don't want to be charged like a hive tfex? Using the same theory of missing overwatch and dropping a screen of spores to prevent the charge?

Requiet wrote:
Has anyone considered using biovores as one hell of a screening force for your slower assault troops? Maybe even zoanthropes or some of the bigger beastie that you don't want to be charged like a hive tfex? Using the same theory of missing overwatch and dropping a screen of spores to prevent the charge?

I do, but I got a lot of biovores and you need that to bring an effective screen. Move them and the hit on a 5+ (heavy weapons) and 2/3 of the mines get deployed. You might be better of with some neophytes using 'cult ambush' to screen your army. Also possible to field a unit meiotic spore sacks (forgeworld) because you can deploy them outside 12 inch from enemy unit, after deployment and make sure you got a nice 'don't deepstrike here buddy' bubble in front of your army. Bit pricy but could be worth it against some armies.

So the FAQ is up.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/02/warhammer-40000-faq-now-available-july2gw-homepage-post-1/

Soinefists cost as much on warriors/shrikes as on ravners. I was hoping it would be a bit less.

Trygons get +1 attack, not +2 each time they attack and then choose to attack with each pair seperatly so they would have gotten +6 attacks.

Deathleaper can setb up if the character he is hunter is dead. Yay.

No words on the mawlock. But the swooping hawks who has a similar abilaty got an FAQ, so I will just be using that one.

Biovores cannot fire overwatch.

GSC stealers cost the same as nid stealers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tyrant guard minimum model count is 3.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Confirmed that you can play nids with gsc with Astra Militarum.
Confirmed that tervigons don't pay to restore models, but pay to create units.
Hive guard minimum model count is 3.

Also, who do people think are good distraction carnifexes in this edition?

While I do not like the term distraction carnifex and fin it a bit misleading I think that dakka carnifexes can do the job, and also the mawlock can be a good distraction carnifex. What do you people think?

The rulebook errata says that you can ignore the minimum requirements for units, if you play with points. Yeah to 1x conscript for 3 points as troop choice.
You can also take just 1 Venomtrophe which is huge.

I think they will do a Errata on the errata. ^^


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BTW this is under strength units.

 Astmeister wrote:
The rulebook errata says that you can ignore the minimum requirements for units, if you play with points. Yeah to 1x conscript for 3 points as troop choice.
You can also take just 1 Venomtrophe which is huge.

I think they will do a Errata on the errata. ^^


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BTW this is under strength units.

I would be shocked if a tournament allowed this. I know the tournament I'm running absolutely would not, as the rule says this only applies "if you don't have enough models to field the full unit". Totally not a valid excuse for an actual event. Casual game? Sure whatever. But not for a tournament.

On another note, all of my Tyranid Genestealers just because Genestealer Cult Genestealers. RIP Trygons. Nice knowing you. But I'm not that sad about it.

So now that there is total clarity (for now) on the 2x Scything Talons (+1 attack and not +2) rule, what do we think for a melee flyrant?

1x Talons & 1x Claws for utility (Talons vs smaller targets, claws vs larger/tougher ones?)

or

2x Talons for an extra attack but you are less effective vs vehicles/monsters?

 luke1705 wrote:

 Astmeister wrote:
The rulebook errata says that you can ignore the minimum requirements for units, if you play with points. Yeah to 1x conscript for 3 points as troop choice.
You can also take just 1 Venomtrophe which is huge.

I think they will do a Errata on the errata. ^^


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BTW this is under strength units.

I would be shocked if a tournament allowed this. I know the tournament I'm running absolutely would not, as the rule says this only applies "if you don't have enough models to field the full unit". Totally not a valid excuse for an actual event. Casual game? Sure whatever. But not for a tournament.

On another note, all of my Tyranid Genestealers just because Genestealer Cult Genestealers. RIP Trygons. Nice knowing you. But I'm not that sad about it.

why?

I know absolutely nothing about GSC btw its why I ask

Ignore hadn't realized how much the thread progressed

Patriarch Phyrx wrote:
So now that there is total clarity (for now) on the 2x Scything Talons (+1 attack and not +2) rule, what do we think for a melee flyrant?

1x Talons & 1x Claws for utility (Talons vs smaller targets, claws vs larger/tougher ones?)

or

2x Talons for an extra attack but you are less effective vs vehicles/monsters?

Utility for sure


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jaq Draco lives wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:


On another note, all of my Tyranid Genestealers just because Genestealer Cult Genestealers. RIP Trygons. Nice knowing you. But I'm not that sad about it.

why?

I know absolutely nothing about GSC btw its why I ask

Their cult ambush rule gives them a delivery system very similar to the Trygon

There is more variability, meaning a small percentage of the time, you'll have a worse result than a 9" charge, but that's what the CP re-roll is for, or if you're really worried, bring a Primus. There is also a 33% probability that you'll have lower than a 9" charge (16% of the time it'll be an auto charge and 16% of the time you're effectively rolling 3d6 for your charge). So the pros are more likely than the cons. But you no longer have to pay for the Trygon.

To be fair, this means that some of the Trygon's choppiness is lost, and that's not a small thing. But you now have 360 to 440 more points to play around with in your list, so bring a Dimachaeron. Bring two! Bring whatever else you want. You just get so many more options now that they have their own delivery system with Cult Ambush.

My new 2k list (incorporates Astra Militarum please forgive me)

Patriarch, 1 familiar
Patriarch, 1 familiar
Patriarch, 1 familiar

20 Purestrain Genestealers
20 Purestrain Genestealers
20 Purestrain Genestealers

Lord Commissar

3 Taurox Primes w/Gatling cannons, 2 hot shot volley guns, heavy stubber

28 conscripts

3 Sabre weapons battery, searchlight
3 Sabre weapons batteries, searchlight
3 x Earthshaker Cannon

Actually has no pure Tyranids units in it at all. Trying to work on a Nids list with less/no AM.....it's hard though since my Nids troops used to be Stealers and they're now my GSC elites

Well if tournaments do not allow the under strength rule okay. But i am glad that i can field my single Venomthrope.

Astmeister wrote:The rulebook errata says that you can ignore the minimum requirements for units, if you play with points. Yeah to 1x conscript for 3 points as troop choice.
You can also take just 1 Venomtrophe which is huge.

I think they will do a Errata on the errata. ^^


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BTW this is under strength units.

Each Zoanthrope is doing an average of 1.66 MORTAL wounds per turn (more than a full squad of Biovores) and is extremely tanky point for point, and will now be individual units. I think if this goes unchanged, they will be one of the best units in the dex. I imagine ITC will probably stick to minimum size units tho.

 luke1705 wrote:

Patriarch Phyrx wrote:
So now that there is total clarity (for now) on the 2x Scything Talons (+1 attack and not +2) rule, what do we think for a melee flyrant?

1x Talons & 1x Claws for utility (Talons vs smaller targets, claws vs larger/tougher ones?)

or

2x Talons for an extra attack but you are less effective vs vehicles/monsters?

Utility for sure

I don't see why you'd pay 20pts for a different option in melee when the same cost gets you 6 str7 ap1 shots, frankly.

Hot damn though those purestrains. I am actually thinking someone at GW fell foul of their own new structure for points, as nid genes are base 10 but pay 2 for RC, so I think they intended to make them equal but forgot that cult don't pay for RC. Not complaining though!

I am thinking something slong the lines of:

Supreme command
Magos
Primus
Primus

Vanguard
Patriarch
20 Genes
20 Genes
20 Genes
20 neos, shotties, 2 flamer

Battalion
Tervigon
Malanthrope
30 gants, 15 dev
30 gants, 15 dev
3 warriors, 2 DS, VC
biovore
biovore
biovore

All the cult ambush in, neos and termas are there to clear chaff for the genes.

I just can't accept something like that when it says "you can run this if you don't have enough models to run the minimum sized unit" and then everyone says "OK I'm running 3 solo zoanthropes now". Would I like solo zoans as smite bots? Yes. But I won't run that because that means every unit has the ability to be run as a solo model. Does anyone really want that for game balance? I hope not.

People seem to be missing that you can only run one undersized unit AND only if you run no other copies of said unit in your army. So no 3pt conscript squad spam, for instance. I think that puts a lid on many of the issues, but the one I can see being abused is loads of min troops from varying inperial lists spammed out for an ungodly amount of CP.

Benlisted wrote:


Hot damn though those purestrains. I am actually thinking someone at GW fell foul of their own new structure for points, as nid genes are base 10 but pay 2 for RC, so I think they intended to make them equal but forgot that cult don't pay for RC. Not complaining though!

The only question in my mind is if:

1) GSC Stealers are supposed to be 12 points per model (most likely IMO)
2) Tyranid Stealers are supposed to be 10 points per model with RC (least likely IMO)
or 3) They intentionally made GSC Stealers cheaper, even though they have alternative deployment options.... ha.

In any case, I am in love with Genestealers right now. Get your plays in while the playing's good!

Even at 12 points per GSC Stealer, they are amazing.

What is sabre weapons battery ? A unit from forge world ?

So now that using purestrain is cheaper... lets talk about cult ambush and when to use that CP reroll. Anything 4+ seems fine to me and not worth rerolling. 3 seems like the worst option since it removes any possibility of a turn 1 charge without help from a Swarmlord. 1 and 2 might be ok... I'd be tempted to keep a 1 or 2 and use my CP reroll on the subsequent roll to determine which board edge they arrive on.

 Zimko wrote:
So now that using purestrain is cheaper... lets talk about cult ambush and when to use that CP reroll. Anything 4+ seems fine to me and not worth rerolling. 3 seems like the worst option since it removes any possibility of a turn 1 charge without help from a Swarmlord. 1 and 2 might be ok... I'd be tempted to keep a 1 or 2 and use my CP reroll on the subsequent roll to determine which board edge they arrive on.

Swarmlord can't help you. Hive Commander only affects <Hive Fleet> units. I would honestly reroll a 1 as well. Your opponent has a pretty good chance to send you to walk on your board edge.

 eauxlune wrote:

 Zimko wrote:
So now that using purestrain is cheaper... lets talk about cult ambush and when to use that CP reroll. Anything 4+ seems fine to me and not worth rerolling. 3 seems like the worst option since it removes any possibility of a turn 1 charge without help from a Swarmlord. 1 and 2 might be ok... I'd be tempted to keep a 1 or 2 and use my CP reroll on the subsequent roll to determine which board edge they arrive on.

Swarmlord can't help you. Hive Commander only affects <Hive Fleet> units. I would honestly reroll a 1 as well. Your opponent has a pretty good chance to send you to walk on your board edge.

Agreed. My plan is to run 3x20 Purestrain mobs with 2x Primus and Patriarch. Reroll any 1-3 on the patriarch

Also do note Biovores cannot overwatch for the people planning biovore spam

 luke1705 wrote:

Patriarch Phyrx wrote:
So now that there is total clarity (for now) on the 2x Scything Talons (+1 attack and not +2) rule, what do we think for a melee flyrant?

1x Talons & 1x Claws for utility (Talons vs smaller targets, claws vs larger/tougher ones?)

or

2x Talons for an extra attack but you are less effective vs vehicles/monsters?

Utility for sure


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Jaq Draco lives wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:


On another note, all of my Tyranid Genestealers just because Genestealer Cult Genestealers. RIP Trygons. Nice knowing you. But I'm not that sad about it.

why?

I know absolutely nothing about GSC btw its why I ask

Their cult ambush rule gives them a delivery system very similar to the Trygon

There is more variability, meaning a small percentage of the time, you'll have a worse result than a 9" charge, but that's what the CP re-roll is for, or if you're really worried, bring a Primus. There is also a 33% probability that you'll have lower than a 9" charge (16% of the time it'll be an auto charge and 16% of the time you're effectively rolling 3d6 for your charge). So the pros are more likely than the cons. But you no longer have to pay for the Trygon.

To be fair, this means that some of the Trygon's choppiness is lost, and that's not a small thing. But you now have 360 to 440 more points to play around with in your list, so bring a Dimachaeron. Bring two! Bring whatever else you want. You just get so many more options now that they have their own delivery system with Cult Ambush.

My new 2k list (incorporates Astra Militarum please forgive me)

Patriarch, 1 familiar
Patriarch, 1 familiar
Patriarch, 1 familiar

20 Purestrain Genestealers
20 Purestrain Genestealers
20 Purestrain Genestealers

Lord Commissar

3 Taurox Primes w/Gatling cannons, 2 hot shot volley guns, heavy stubber

28 conscripts

3 Sabre weapons battery, searchlight
3 Sabre weapons batteries, searchlight
3 x Earthshaker Cannon

Actually has no pure Tyranids units in it at all. Trying to work on a Nids list with less/no AM.....it's hard though since my Nids troops used to be Stealers and they're now my GSC elites

Herasy! The 4 armed Emp will Not bless this! If it can win, it should be played.

Nasty wrote:
What is sabre weapons battery ? A unit from forge world ?

Yeah basically it works now like Tau 7th edition marker lights did...except it auto hits

SO GOOD. If anyone knows of a good model to use for a searchlight, I am interested. FW doesn't sell the model any more and all of the bat signals I've found look like toys, not weapons of war


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jifel wrote:

 eauxlune wrote:

 Zimko wrote:
So now that using purestrain is cheaper... lets talk about cult ambush and when to use that CP reroll. Anything 4+ seems fine to me and not worth rerolling. 3 seems like the worst option since it removes any possibility of a turn 1 charge without help from a Swarmlord. 1 and 2 might be ok... I'd be tempted to keep a 1 or 2 and use my CP reroll on the subsequent roll to determine which board edge they arrive on.

Swarmlord can't help you. Hive Commander only affects <Hive Fleet> units. I would honestly reroll a 1 as well. Your opponent has a pretty good chance to send you to walk on your board edge.

Agreed. My plan is to run 3x20 Purestrain mobs with 2x Primus and Patriarch. Reroll any 1-3 on the patriarch

Here's what gets me for the Patriarch over the Primus:

I can have a ML1 parker, who can also cast smite with his familiar
Total morale immunity
Better in CC (not by a ton, but is better)
More durable (again not by a ton, but still)

The primus' ability to re-roll the cult ambush is big don't get me wrong. But here's my thing about that (and don't tell anyone because it's a really big secret)

When you roll on the cult ambush table, the only result where you can't get a 9" charge or better is a 4. Every other result (except the 1/12 chance when your opponent picks your deployment edge from a 1 and you roll that edge) is honestly fine, and very well could result in you getting a 9" charge. How many times does your opponent deploy 15+ inches away from both side edges? And let's say he does. He's going to have a bubble wrap unit for sure. So unless you can with certainty chew through all of his bubble wrap first turn, you're really not missing out on much. My point is that the table is a lot more forgiving than most people think, and a 5 or a 6 are both spectacular.

Another hidden point of power for Cult Ambush (and why you don't need a Primus in my opinion) is because you choose which units are going to come in AS THEY COME IN.

Consider this scenario. I have 3 purestrain units with 3 patriarchs. Heresy, you say! You're just asking for a bad roll, you say!

OK. I'll roll my CA for the first unit. Crap you're right the dice have betrayed me! It's a 1, so I'm forced to use my CP re-roll. At that point, I'll just decide to keep my other two units of purestrains in reserve until turn 2 (or turn 3, if I need to).

Obviously this route has the possibility to be more CP intensive, and Patriarchs are more expensive than a Primus. But man, they bring so much. Smite + a GSC power each turn is amazing. Also, if I'm going to do a cheap HQ for GSC, I actually like the Iconward better than the Patriarch. 6+ FNP is spectacular and it stacks on top of the Tyranid Catalyst power, giving you a 5++ followed by a 5+ FNP followed by a 6+ FNP....good LORD! (You can cast that power on pure strains)

If you need to shave points off your list, go for a primus. But the psychic powers are just too good for me not to want to have them. I may also bring in Swarmy as a beat stick and for the horror + catalyst...Imagine the malanthrope + the horror + mass hypnosis...snapfiring from BS 3

How do the familiars work on the Patriarch? Are they attached to the Patriarch? If so, then is the Patriarch now a 2 model character? Can your opponent choose to shoot the familiar separately since it's not a character? The familiar is slower than the Patriarch, does that mean you have to slow down the Patriarch to allow the Familiar to keep up?

There's nothing in the rules for the familiar that tells you how to treat it once it's on the battlefield, unless I'm missing something. Can I just hide it in my back field somewhere?

 Zimko wrote:
How do the familiars work on the Patriarch? Are they attached to the Patriarch? If so, then is the Patriarch now a 2 model character? Can your opponent choose to shoot the familiar separately since it's not a character? The familiar is slower than the Patriarch, does that mean you have to slow down the Patriarch to allow the Familiar to keep up?

There's nothing in the rules for the familiar that tells you how to treat it once it's on the battlefield, unless I'm missing something. Can I just hide it in my back field somewhere?

He's basically a part of the Patriarch's unit. The Patriarch's familiars are part of his unit and you can allocate wounds either to it or to the patriarch as the unit is targeted. If you have 1 character in a unit and other models that aren't a character, the entire unit cannot be targeted unless they are the closest unit. You do lose a little speed, but what I didn't realize is that the familiars don't have his weapons like they did in 7th. And I forgot that it was a once per game extra power, so I'm going to go back on that and say I don't think they're worthwhile for just ablative wounds and some lousy attacks. Now to find something to do with those 36 points

 SHUPPET wrote:

Astmeister wrote:The rulebook errata says that you can ignore the minimum requirements for units, if you play with points. Yeah to 1x conscript for 3 points as troop choice.
You can also take just 1 Venomtrophe which is huge.

Each Zoanthrope is doing an average of 1.66 MORTAL wounds per turn (more than a full squad of Biovores) and is extremely tanky point for point, and will now be individual units. I think if this goes unchanged, they will be one of the best units in the dex. I imagine ITC will probably stick to minimum size units tho.

The only thing they changed in regards to under strength units is that you only pay points for the models you actually have rather than the cost for a minimum unit + gear, you still can't take more than 1 unit of a given type that is under strength per the rulebook and arguably, RAW if you do have enough models to field a full strength unit you are required to do so as the rule specifically mentions fielding the understrength unit with as many models as are available. As an example, if you have 2 of the Finecast Venomthropes you can field a unit of 2 Venomthropes instead of the minimum unit of 3, but you CANNOT field 2 units of 1 Venomthrope.

Anyway:

tag8833 wrote:

- Toxicrine: He looked really interesting at first, but I've cooled on him since. I've got one NIB, and can't decide how much rush to build him.

A fellow at our local shop has been running one since 8th dropped and it has done fairly well for him, especially against other monsters and elite infantry like the Primus marines. The biggest vulnerability the Toxicine has from what I have seen is the WS degrade on the damage table. As the game goes on it will have to rely more on its Hypertoxic Miasma and ranged profile on its Massive Toxic Lashes to do damage in melee. It is fairly cheap for a 12 wound melee beast with as many attacks as it has though, I know our resident daemon player absolutely hates it given how quickly it can scythe through their larger daemons before they can swing.

tag8833 wrote:

- Crones: 1st turn charge ability. Seemingly a great tarpit.
- Harpy: Similar to Crone but with shooting / bombing options. Is it good? Too fragile?

They can't directly be used as tarpits as they must move at least 10'' a turn according to their movement stat. That said, a foe who elects to remain in combat will prevent them from charging next turn, so there is some incentive for the foe to willingly stay locked in with either beast which can be exploited.

Of the two, I think the Harpy is the more universally useful choice since it can cover a wide variety of roles and has a useful toolbox (Sonic Screech and Spore Cysts), but the Crone looks like it will be solid as a relatively cheap AA platform as both its primary weapons have tools to mitigate the -1 to hit penalty and it has enough D3 damage melee attacks to take a fair chunk of wounds off once it closes in. Plus, the Crone does not care about instinctive behavior as much since it is going to make a beeline for the nearest flier anyway and neither the Crone or Harpy have to worry about the pivoting rules the mechanical fliers have.

tag8833 wrote:

- Maleceptor: He is still pretty bad, right?

He got a LOT better actually, probably the most improved model in the army. Cheaper points cost, 3+ armor while retaining the 5+ Invul, ability to pick their powers, Scything Talons that actually do stuff, and Psychic Overload no longer requires a psychic test to activate and just causes a mortal wound on a 2+ instead of the convoluted Ld check it used to require (and as a bonus, since it isn't a shooting attack it can be allocated to characters hiding in the ranks). It also gets an innate +1 to manifest powers that isn't effected by damage (unlike the Lord of Change), so Smite goes off on a 4+ (and deals D6 damage on a 9+) and Tyranid powers go off on 5+, making it far more reliable than the other psykers if you really need a particular power to be cast.

tag8833 wrote:

- Gargoyles: They really lost alot this edition it feels like.

I think they are about the same as before, apart from a slight nerf to blinding venom and the loss of all the formations involving them. In exchange though, they got an improved Instinctive Behavior, rerolls to wound on fleshborer shots when taken in larger broods, the ability to assault opposing fliers, and the new detachments allow them to be fielded en-mass as your "troop" equivalent if desired without having to bring multiple flying monsters.

Hi all, back with updated stats including some requested figures like the Devilgants, Tyrannocyte and Wyvern

I'd struggle to type all of this out and format it so it's readable, I've attached a picture. You may need to click on it to get the full size so you can read it.

Carnifexin

Both flavours seems decent and all round solid anti-screen choice. Durable, don't need Synapse if you're shooting at screens and their efficiency drop off is non existent until the beast actually dies. However they're not "fast" and delivery systems for more than one are quite pricy.

Tyrannofex

Standing still this guy is only less efficient point for point against Devilgants. One of the most durable platforms for efficiency per wound lost. However, this guys is NEVER shooting with his stationary profile on first turn, either he's running up the board (why?) or being podded in. Which is exactly when you want the screens to die so you can charge.

Warriors

Initially underrated as screen killers and for good reason. Their point per wound is some of the highest of all the models I compared. For a pure screen killer, Warriors aint it. However outside of screen killing they offer a nine man semi-decent melee blob and frontline Synapse, assuming you pay for the transport tax to get them there.

Devilgants

Woooooo lad. Ok these guys are insanely efficient, by far and a way the best unit in the Index for killing screens. They lose efficiency fairly fast compared to some of the bigger guys, but they make up for it with the amount of raw damage they output. They are such a threat that you're opponent can't ignore these guys, allowing larger stuff to arrive less harmed. They still need the transport tax but pretty much everything does (except the next contender). All in all, amazing unit.

Wyverns

Yep, it's official. The FAQ ruling has made Tyranids + GSC + Guard legit, which means Wyverns are legit too. On paper three of these guys perform about as well as two Deathspitter Dakkafexin, that is until you factor in their 48'' range and the ability to shoot out of line of sight. Arguably the most durable platform of the lot with 30+ wounds (taken in 3s), 3+ save, T6 and the advantage of sitting in your backfield. And unlike all the others on this list, they don't require a transport tax, at most you probably want 10 - 20 Termagants wrapping a screen around them. Considering you're most likely an Alpha Strike army even that probably isn't necessary.

Conclusion

Tier 1: Devilgants & Wyverns

Tier 2: Dakkafex

Tier 3: Tyrannofex & Warriors

Edited Wyverns to T6 from T8

Cool comparison!
Wyverns just have T6 though.

 Astmeister wrote:
Cool comparison!
Wyverns just have T6 though.

cheers

Per chance, do you have the math for the Harpy with Stranglethorn cannons?


Also one thing I didn't immediately catch with Malanthropes, their spore cloud only works on individual models within range of the effect, so Venomthropes will still be required to protect infantry though as a trade-off the Manathrope bubble works on monsters and gargantuans.

 Strat_N8 wrote:
Per chance, do you have the math for the Harpy with Stranglethorn cannons?


Also one thing I didn't immediately catch with Malanthropes, their spore cloud only works on individual models within range of the effect, so Venomthropes will still be required to protect infantry though as a trade-off the Manathrope bubble works on monsters and gargantuans.

Apparently the playtesters have already said that this is a mistake and should be units. Because there is no individual targeting mechanism in 8th for individual models.

I'm sure that will be rectified when the FAQ's drop for the FW Indices

I put this in Army Lists, but found I wrote a lot more strategy into the list than anything, so I figured I might copy it here to discuss the strategy portions.

Battalion Detachment 1
HQ
Swarmlord - 300
Broodlord - 162 (Warlord w/ +1 Attack on Charge trait)
Troops
30x Hormagaunts w/ A. Glands - 180
28x Termagants w/ 15 Devourers - 172
27x Termagants w/ 15 Devourers - 168
Battalion Detachment 2
HQ
Malanthrope - 90
Old One Eye - 140
Troops
3x Ripper Swarms - 33
3x Ripper Swarms - 33
3x Ripper Swarms - 33
Heavy
3x Carnifex w/ Talons, Deathspitters and Thresher Scythe - 324
Patrol Detachment
HQ
Patriarch w/ Familiar - 162
Troops
20x Purestrain Genestealers - 200 (Cheaper after the recent Errata)
Total : 1997 pts
CPs: 9

Setup: I put the Malanthrope just a couple inches from the front and center of my line. Then surround him with Old One Eye, 3 Carnifexes and Swarmlord. To his left or right, I'll put 30x Hormagaunts and string 1 so that it's just within 3" of the Malanthrope. The Termagants will be deployed on whatever flank is needed, depending on the map and my opponent's deployment. The Patriarch and Purestrain will arrive via the cult ambush. The Broodlord will start among the Hormagaunts.

Psychic Powers: Typically, the Swarmlord will have Catalyst and Onslaught while the Broodlord will have Horror. I might give the Broodlord Onslaught instead, I'll need to play some to see what the best combo is. The Patriarch will have either Mind Control or Mass Hypnosis, depending on what kind of army I'm facing. If I'm fighting a swarm or gunline army the Mass Hypnosis. If I'm fighting a bunch of fliers then Mind Control.

Strategy: This will obviously depend on what I'm facing, but in general it's good to have a plan.

General Strats: The ripper swarms will arrive on turn 3 close to objects and out of site. Their entire purpose in life is to capture objectives that have been neglected by the main combat. I'll try to place objectives in odd corners where no one will want to waste units to go to or risk losing the main fight.

Vs. Hordes (Orks, Nids): Against other melee armies, the Termagants are going to be the stars of the show. I need to prevent the charge against them. To this end, I will use the 30x Hormagaunts as a screen for the Termagants, and I'll have the Broodlord stay close to them to provide synapse. My Carnifexes will stay in front of Old One Eye and Swarmlord on the first turn so that Swarmlord and Old One Eye don't get alpha charged by a Trygon/Stealer/GSC Ambush.

Vs. Gunline (AM, Tau): Here is where the Cult Ambush should help a bit. The Patriarch will take Mass Hypnosis to prevent at least 1 unit from using Overwatch (conscripts would be ideal). Then I'll use Onslaught and Catalyst on the Hormagaunts and the Swarmlord's Hive Commander ability to move them 20 to 30 inches and still be able to charge. The Broodlord will try to keep up (8+d6 move) and I'll chain some gaunts back to him for synapse. I'll spread them out a bit and declare charge on 1 target. Only the first model that I move with their charge must end it's move within 1" of the target... The rest can move any direction I want, including 2" away from other units that I did not target. Then during the Pile-in.... that's when they must move to the closest enemy model (6" for Hormagaunts). At that point, I've basically multi-charged but only received overwatch from 1 or 0 units (Mass Hypnosis). The obvious exception to this is Tau who can overwatch with multiple units without being targeted. Hopefully enough Hormagaunts survive to force 2 or 3 units to fall back on the next turn. Catalyst will come in play here to keep them alive so that units stay locked in combat until my opponent's turn. The goal of the Hormagaunts to prevent units from shooting. If they actually manage to kill a unit (I doubt it) then that's a bonus, and their 6" consolidate might force another unit to forgo shooting next turn. If I'm fighting a blob of conscripts, then I'll probably fall back withe hormagaunts on my next turn so I can clear the remianing conscripts out with my approaching horde of Termagants and Carnifexes. The Hormagaunts will then move somewhere they can threaten another unit on turn 3, thus forcing my opponent to either shoot at them (fine by me) or accept that they'll be locking another unit or two into combat on turn 3. Hormagaunts are annoying and they're cheap enough that I can just throw them away for the sole purpose of absorbing shooting.

Vs. Airborne Spam (Astartes): I haven't fought this and it'll be a tough fight. My Carnifexes and Termagants will be hugging the Malaonthrope like their life depends on it (cause it does). They're my only chance at shooting down airborne units. The rest of my army will be spreading out as much as possible to try and force a Stormraven to hover. Swarmlord, Broodlord and Patriarch will smite every chance they get. Hopefully it's an objectives mission. The Patriarch will take Mind Control, and I may start it on the field. Airborne units like Stormravens want to get close so they can rapid fire, so with a 8+d6 move, the Patriarch can more easily get within 12" for Mind Control than if I risk using Cult Ambush and get one of the results that will not put it within 12".

Vs. Mixed (Everyone else): Against more balanced list, it'll just be a matter of combining the above strategies and changing my play based on the needs of the mission. Losing the Swarmlord on turn one would be a pretty devesting loss to this list, and I'm gambling on the Malanthrope being enough to keep him on the board. I just need at least 1 use of the Hive Commander to either get Hormagaunts across the board or Old One Eye. If he's able to absorb a lot of fire doing it, then that's fine.

Genestealers are Elites in GSC.

 Astmeister wrote:
Genestealers are Elites in GSC.

Beat me to the punch there. But at 200 points for 20, I truly see no reason not to take 3...

 jifel wrote:

 Astmeister wrote:
Genestealers are Elites in GSC.

Beat me to the punch there. But at 200 points for 20, I truly see no reason not to take 3...

Especially when the Patriarchs can come with them for so cheaply and are such great untargetable force multipliers

I literally only own 1 Venomthrope. I don't want to be 'That Guy' at my store, but I would like to field it, especially if I can only pay for 1. There's some discussion, but are there any quotes to the exact rules lines that allow this?
---------
On play testing. I'm finding a number of my local players want to use Power Level. Hive Crone was great when it was fully kitted. Not sure how I would handle it when paying points, but in Power Level, its job was to turn 1 shoot and charge the enemy's Laser-Destroyer tank.

Crone did 2-3 points of damage between shooting and melee. The best thing it did was repeatedly charge his tanks 1-at-a-time, causing them to fall back and not shoot for the turn. It was a distraction after that, but it eventually rolled well and ended up doing ~9 wounds to the tank, surviving, and drool-cannoning his general. If you are smart, you can use the large footprint of the flying base and wrap hormagaunts / other flyers near the tank, forcing it to stay in melee on its own turn.

My 2 Carnifexen was running ScyTals, Bone Mace, & a pair of DeathSpitters w/Slimer Maggots.Also AG. The hybrid Carnifexand OOE was a wrecking ball. Enough shooting to hurt MEQ, and melee that was shredding terminators. I left one Carnifex sprinting in the wrong direction, out of Synapse, so that the next turn he would Isntinctive Behavior back onto the objective. (I had no other units to take it). Definitely some play to this army.

I have a magnetizied Hive Tyrant, but I'm scared to run him as Swarmy since I don't own Tyrant Guard, and my local players like the point-and-click playstyle of IG/Las-Cannon/Artillery spam.

Well, another 400 points of genestealers would blow up my army idea. So I suppose, if I wanted to keep them as GSC, I'd take 3 units of 10, thus only requiring that I find space for 100 points. I could remove a Carnifex for that.

Then I'd have 10 Command Points.

DoggieDoo wrote:
I literally only own 1 Venomthrope. I don't want to be 'That Guy' at my store, but I would like to field it, especially if I can only pay for 1. There's some discussion, but are there any quotes to the exact rules lines that allow this?

You my friend are literally exactly who GW had in mind for this rule they wrote. Go for it! Play the dude. If you run into someone who has an issue with that, offer to proxy some models as the other two. If they have issues with both of those things and you're not playing at a tournament....well maybe it's time to play someone else.

The rules you're looking for are in the BRB FAQ that GW put out. Totally not intended for competitive play, but casually I think it's fine

Zande4 doing all that job is a thankless task,, but I am very happy. Thank you a lot.

Glad that Biovores ignore LoS now, but hate they lost Overwatch, that was funny.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They also greatly reduced the ranged of my Void Shield Generator. Not sure how well it works to protect my backfield now.

 luke1705 wrote:

DoggieDoo wrote:
I literally only own 1 Venomthrope. I don't want to be 'That Guy' at my store, but I would like to field it, especially if I can only pay for 1. There's some discussion, but are there any quotes to the exact rules lines that allow this?

You my friend are literally exactly who GW had in mind for this rule they wrote. Go for it! Play the dude. If you run into someone who has an issue with that, offer to proxy some models as the other two. If they have issues with both of those things and you're not playing at a tournament....well maybe it's time to play someone else.

The rules you're looking for are in the BRB FAQ that GW put out. Totally not intended for competitive play, but casually I think it's fine

why is it not intended for competitive play? They've given no indication of that, in fact, quite the opposite, they've said PL is for more casual list building and points is for more competitive, and that this rule applies strictly to points.

If it's only one unit, it should be fine for P much everything. Running one of Zoanthrope might be worth most of us considering now.

I've been kinda thinking the Tyranid thread should be kept for Tyranid discussion not introducing Wyverns and other adaptions that are to my mind purely ultra competitive and end up revolving around AM and GSC instead of Tyranid, am I alone in that? Because I'll shut up if I am.

Jaq Draco lives wrote:
I've been kinda thinking the Tyranid thread should be kept for Tyranid discussion not introducing Wyverns and other adaptions that are to my mind purely ultra competitive and end up revolving around AM and GSC instead of Tyranid, am I alone in that? Because I'll shut up if I am.

This thread is for Competitive Tyranid discussion. If AM is what it takes to alleviate our weaknesses, that thats what it takes. I'm not convinced yet, and thats why we can discuss it. If it doesn't belong here, then where? Imo its not just okay to leave it here but i think its also IMPORTANT that we do

Jaq Draco lives wrote:
I've been kinda thinking the Tyranid thread should be kept for Tyranid discussion not introducing Wyverns and other adaptions that are to my mind purely ultra competitive and end up revolving around AM and GSC instead of Tyranid, am I alone in that? Because I'll shut up if I am.

I think you're right that a lot of people won't wind up using them (I myself would not for casual games) but I think it bears mentioning as an option for us.

Many people might not have read the FAQ (or will ever read it) but might be interested in bringing some of those units. Not my cup of tea but I think it's good for people to understand all of their options. Whether they decide to use those options or not is up to them.

OK fair enough I wasn't trying to be a dick or anything you understand just seems like the Tyranids are a pretty damn strong codex right now by themselves

But hey as I said I'll be quiet about it

Jaq Draco lives wrote:
OK fair enough I wasn't trying to be a dick or anything you understand just seems like the Tyranids are a pretty damn strong codex right now by themselves

But hey as I said I'll be quiet about it

Tyranids are strong finally, which is why we want to make sure we are getting the most out of them competively since we finally have what appears to be a non-gimmicky dex.

I say "appears" to be, because we'll see in time if assault is even a viable strategy as the meta evolves. with the strength of some of these flyer lists it might just not be, and we may definitely need to look closely at ALL our options.

 SHUPPET wrote:

Jaq Draco lives wrote:
I've been kinda thinking the Tyranid thread should be kept for Tyranid discussion not introducing Wyverns and other adaptions that are to my mind purely ultra competitive and end up revolving around AM and GSC instead of Tyranid, am I alone in that? Because I'll shut up if I am.

This thread is for Competitive Tyranid discussion. If AM is what it takes to alleviate our weaknesses, that thats what it takes. I'm not convinced yet, and thats why we can discuss it. If it doesn't belong here, then where? Imo its not just okay to leave it here but i think its also IMPORTANT that we do

I think his point was more that this thread should be focused mainly on Tyranid-centric lists opposed to lists that are primarily GSC/AM (such as luke1705's list on page 32 - a very nice and nasty looking list to be sure but it doesn't have any Hive Fleet Tyranids in it). There is a thread devoted to our GSC brethren/cousins that could be used for discussing more hybrid-oriented lists, though it isn't quite as active (or as optimistic sadly - price hike on a lot of the GSC units have left people a touch sour).

 SHUPPET wrote:

I say "appears" to be, because we'll see in time if assault is even a viable strategy as the meta evolves. with the strength of some of these flyer lists it might just not be, and we may definitely need to look closely at ALL our options.

I think we should be ok against flyer spam lists if it ends up an archetype we need to tailor for. We have a lot of models with the fly keyword ourselves and plenty of tools to clog up the board to force hover mode. If nothing else, if Flyer spam takes off you might see Skarbrand suddenly become very popular given what the FAQ did with him.

I'm strongly considering AM allies for the Hydra. A unit of 3 seems like top notch anti-air, and isn't terrible at shooting ground stuff either, each one having practically the damage output of dual Deathspitter Carnifex, except from further range, and then with Bolter+Stubber added on too.



Luke, what units is currently top tier for AM? And what have you been using for Nid allies? I see your list but I have no idea the rules for the FW am stuff and don't want to spend all that money on the IA:AM dex just to potentially not even want to use any of that stuff lol. Can you give me a crash course here?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you personally don't want to talk GSC, then you don't have to, but Genestealers are still Tyranids.... I don't see why we need two threads for what is essentially the one race, are allies, and are obviously going to be considered to be mixed and matched heavily when playing either army competitively. And AM are part of that Genestealer Cult. I'm playing main army Nids but I'm looking to consider all potential options, if this isn't the place for this, then again, where? Because if I brought it to the GSC thread the exact same logic could be used there to say this thread isn't about Nid or AM allies, and if I brought it to the AM thread I'd get that same thing to. This is where the Tyranid community is, this is where I am going to discuss Tyranids and GSC. Let's move on.

GSC are not tyranids, they are a separate army with separate entries in the codex lists

So yeah Strat N8 is right there has been a lot of GSC and AM talk and yeah a little allyship is OK but pure literal non tyranid lists is not really part of this thread.

Honestly I think that all things applicable to Nids should be here, even if its their allies. After all, people will come here for help with competitive tactics, and if the answer is in an ally they should be able to find it here. Now obviously if we're talking a mostly guard list or a mostly GSC list that would get better response in their threads, but we shouldnt discourage the discussion of other units here. When in doubt, allowing more to be talked about will only lead to a more productive conversation.

Jaq Draco lives wrote:
GSC are not tyranids, they are a separate army with separate entries in the codex lists

So yeah Strat N8 is right there has been a lot of GSC and AM talk and yeah a little allyship is OK but pure literal non tyranid lists is not really part of this thread.

So we can't discuss competitive Nid builds in here because of allies?

Get over it, they are the same faction, they are separated into being allies gameplay wise, but in terms of options in the army is still a borderline Nids dataslate that is simply allowed to stand alone. In no other threads do people try and shut down talk of allies, least of all should we be shutting it down in ours especially since I'm pretty sure every Tyranid player to run any number of Genestealers at this point is likely going to be allying GSC now Purestrains are 10pts.

We are not going to stop talking about it in here, its productive to Tyranids competitive discussion, so again, move on, I'm not going to talk about this anymore because harking on this is disrupting the thread.

There isn't a strict set of rules in this thread. People are free to discuss GSC, Hive Fleets and AM of all flavours. This is a Tyranid tactica not a Hive Fleet tactica.

It's not off topic. Whining about it is and contributes literally nothing.

As SHUPPET says, if not here then where? If people want to discuss GSC and AM, it's getting discussed. As I said there is no rule forbidding this, just 1 persons personal preference

 SHUPPET wrote:

Jaq Draco lives wrote:
GSC are not tyranids, they are a separate army with separate entries in the codex lists

So yeah Strat N8 is right there has been a lot of GSC and AM talk and yeah a little allyship is OK but pure literal non tyranid lists is not really part of this thread.

So we can't discuss competitive Nid builds in here because of allies?

Get over it, they are the same faction, the same army in the lore, they are separated into being allies gameplay wise, but in terms of options in the army is still a borderline Nids dataslate that is simply allowed to stand alone. In no other threads do people try and shut down talk of allies, least of all should we be shutting it down in ours especially since I'm pretty sure every Tyranid player to run any number of Genestealers at this point is likely going to be allying GSC now Purestrains are 10pts.

We are not going to stop talking about it in here, its productive to Tyranids competitive discussion, so again, move on, this is the last I'm going to say about it, harking on this is disrupting the thread.

And AM are also basically nids?

Yes in other threads they don't but in no other threads do they have a list which doesn't have anything of the Codex of the thread in it. And while I said I would move on if no one agreed someone did and brought up that very good point so no I'm not going to leave it alone based on that and you don't get to just shut the conversation down because you say so.

GSC +AM is not relevant in a Tyranid thread.

Jaq Draco lives wrote:
GSC are not tyranids, they are a separate army with separate entries in the codex lists

So yeah Strat N8 is right there has been a lot of GSC and AM talk and yeah a little allyship is OK but pure literal non tyranid lists is not really part of this thread.

I agree completely. For example, my army has shifted from all Tyranid Stealers to all GSC Stealers, and since I also have a detachment of AM, my current competitive list actually has no Tyranid Detachment. So I agree that such a list is more suited for the GSC thread.

However, right now the trend of the week seems to be how to shore up Tyranid weaknesses, which both GSC (and AM through GSC) have the ability to do. I think if the intent is to discuss how those units make a Tyranids army better, they belong here. Jifel is right though that our ally options are important options to know about, whether people decide to make usage of them or not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jaq Draco lives wrote:
OK fair enough I wasn't trying to be a dick or anything you understand just seems like the Tyranids are a pretty damn strong codex right now by themselves

But hey as I said I'll be quiet about it

Nah man you just expressed an opinion. No need to justify it. That's all anyone is doing here


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SHUPPET wrote:


I'm not going to talk about this anymore because harking on this is disrupting the thread.

An important point. More discussion of tactics and less about where tactics belong is probably going to make all of us better generals


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SHUPPET wrote:
I'm strongly considering AM allies for the Hydra. A unit of 3 seems like top notch anti-air, and isn't terrible at shooting ground stuff either, each one having practically the damage output of dual Deathspitter Carnifex, except from further range, and then with Bolter+Stubber added on too.

Luke, what units are currently top tier for AM? And what have you been using for Nid allies? I see your list but I have no idea the rules for the FW am stuff and don't want to spend all that money on the IA:AM dex just to potentially not even want to use any of that stuff lol. Can you give me a crash course here?

The forge world Indices are great. If you're even thinking about using AM with your Nids, absolutely go to town. Totally worth $17. They have some good heavy mortar options (4d6 shots at 48" range, doesn't need LOS) as well as some good anti tank options at range. My personal favorite of those is the Earthshaker Battery. Basically it's an 80 point Basilisk. Same weapon but just the top half of the tank. Which is funny because that's literally what I'll use when I field them

Outside of forge world, the Wyverns are great. Basically the same thing as the quad heavy mortar but gains shred and loses 1 str.

The real standout from the codex is the Taurox prime. You're putting out 31 shots at 24" range. Sure they're all basically bolter shots, but it's 100 points with its weapons. That's just insane. And it hits on a 3+ if it didn't move. The only reason why this isn't the only unit people take is because you can't give it orders and you can't increase its ballistic skill in any way.

Which brings me to the last staple of competitive AM guns, which is not a gun at all - Sabre Defense Weapon Searchlight. Remember how Tau markerlights worked in 7th? (+1 BS to a single unit shooting at the unit you marked). Well yeah. These are like that, except they auto hit. And they do stack (so did ML but it bears mentioning). And they shoot at 48" range, not 36". So just a little good. Like 3 of these babies can make your conscript squad hit on 2's (meaning with an order in rapid fire range, a max squad of 50 is pumping out 200 shots...hitting on 2's. Sick. Not that your opponent will ever let these searchlights live longe enough for that to happen.

As far as anti air, I'm more inclined to either ignore those units or just say "well I have enough guns that I don't care if I hit worse" (or just use searchlights). I don't like -1 to hit on ground units as a general rule

Finally, my competitive list. I'm tweaking a few things to make the last points work, but I've actually gravitated entirely away from a Tyranid Detachment in favor of a GSC one (or two). My Nids list was mostly Stealers, and now they're all GSC so it just makes more sense. Units that are still drawing me back to Tyranids and making me certain that I'll still use Tyranids for non-tournament games:

1) Swarmy. I miss that old beat stick. Force multiplication is OP
2) Malanthrope. Did I mention that force multiplication was OP? Untargetable synapse force multiplication that could provide an army wide buff is super OP
3) Dimachaeron. I don't think he's super incredible but I love him so much
4) Exocrine. Super good at what he does. I just don't think that what he does is as valuable at the tournament level
5) Tyranid Psychic Table (specifically the horror, stacking with the Malanthrope and Mass Hypnosis.... ) as well as catalyst. Especially because Catalyst can be cast on GSC units, and it stacks with the 6+ FNP from the iconward.

Things I don't miss from Tyranids:

1) the broodlord. Patriarch is just better
2) tyrant guard. For a while, I believed they were good even on their own merit in CC, but a good opponent won't ever let them get there. And while the ablative wounds for Swarmy are a necessary evil, it is an evil.
4) Trygon taxi service. He's good when he gets to combat, but he's a very squishy dude for how beefy he looks on paper

So have a slowgrow league starting today at PL30

what should I take?

GodDamUser wrote:
So have a slowgrow league starting today at PL30

what should I take?

Are there restrictions on force org charts? Like do you have to have a legal force every step of the way?

 jifel wrote:

 Astmeister wrote:
Genestealers are Elites in GSC.

Beat me to the punch there. But at 200 points for 20, I truly see no reason not to take 3...

Ha. I thought you would have quit 40k. I was following your blog, when you were still actively writing it. Found it amazing.

On topic:
The GSC Stealers are truly too cheap to not take them. However, I do not think this will stay like it is for long. Scion Command Squads got nerfed quickly as well. Anyway I just wanted to make people aware of the fact that GS are Elites in GSC. Meaning you would have to take a Vanguard Detachment, which forces you to spend a lot of points on GS.
Imho the Abberants are even worth considering from GSC, since they might help with heavy Tanks with their Power Hammers. And with Cult Ambush they can even reach the Knight etc. of the enemy.

I for one welcome our new pant stealing overlords.

 Astmeister wrote:

 jifel wrote:

 Astmeister wrote:
Genestealers are Elites in GSC.

Beat me to the punch there. But at 200 points for 20, I truly see no reason not to take 3...

Ha. I thought you would have quit 40k. I was following your blog, when you were still actively writing it. Found it amazing.

On topic:
The GSC Stealers are truly too cheap to not take them. However, I do not think this will stay like it is for long. Scion Command Squads got nerfed quickly as well. Anyway I just wanted to make people aware of the fact that GS are Elites in GSC. Meaning you would have to take a Vanguard Detachment, which forces you to spend a lot of points on GS.
Imho the Abberants are even worth considering from GSC, since they might help with heavy Tanks with their Power Hammers. And with Cult Ambush they can even reach the Knight etc. of the enemy.

yeah I feel like you guys are right about what the mistake is and it's going to likely be corrected soon

I played my first game and and found it interesting and reasonably fun. I will say that lictors are so weird that they were kind of useful. Mine prevented overwatch vs other units by charging first (at -1 to hit overwatch can't hit, right?), caused some plasma sentinels to blow up, got into terrain and were hard to dig out. They could really use some kind of hit and run rule though.

Spore mines were only useful for blocking a charge and and because my opponent thought they were dangerous.

Old One eye is, indeed, the man.

The speed of the big bugs in impressive. Weird that termigants are so slow though.

I hate the new terrain rules or lack thereoff. They are very jammy and situational where they used to be my best friend running nids.

 kestral wrote:
I played my first game and and found it interesting and reasonably fun. I will say that lictors are so weird that they were kind of useful. Mine prevented overwatch vs other units by charging first (at -1 to hit overwatch can't hit, right?), caused some plasma sentinels to blow up, got into terrain and were hard to dig out. They could really use some kind of hit and run rule though.

Spore mines were only useful for blocking a charge and and because my opponent thought they were dangerous.

Old One eye is, indeed, the man.

The speed of the big bugs in impressive. Weird that termigants are so slow though.

I hate the new terrain rules or lack thereoff. They are very jammy and situational where they used to be my best friend running nids.

Overwatch always hits on 6+ regardless of modifiers.
Concerning the -1 to hit:
A Plasma gun blows up on a roll of 2, instead of a roll of 1. However, a roll of 1 does not cause it to blow up. This is weird but RAW.

 Astmeister wrote:

 jifel wrote:

 Astmeister wrote:
Genestealers are Elites in GSC.

Beat me to the punch there. But at 200 points for 20, I truly see no reason not to take 3...

Ha. I thought you would have quit 40k. I was following your blog, when you were still actively writing it. Found it amazing.

I'm flattered you remember! Quit blogging when I went to college as I was going months between games, but I've upped my play time lately and was considering writing again...

I take back what I said a while ago about Dakkafexes being great. They aren't bad, but my perception of what an MC is was being affected by my experience in 7th. They are decent though, and should probably make up the core of your army if you going with a gunline.

Stonecrushers with Flail seem amazing however, but we really need that errata so we can know exactly HOW it works. As long as it doesn't replace attacks, it should give it coverage vs both mobs and heavy units. Time will tell.



A unit that I think is flying under the radar is Spinefist Ravener. They are each rolling 9 dice a turn in combat, and give them Red Terror support and the majority of those dice are 2+ S4 attacks and re-rolling on miss.

The easy comparison at the price point would be 3x Devilgants, who also do 9 dice a turn in shooting, at S4. Raveners however are tankier, have 12" movespeed, and you get way more because you don't need Trygon transports. I think these things are likely going to be the core of my army, dependent only on how Stonecrushers turn out after the FAQ.

 jifel wrote:


I'm flattered you remember! Quit blogging when I went to college as I was going months between games, but I've upped my play time lately and was considering writing again...

Cool. I will keep following if you continue the blog and remember you writing about going to college soon. Good luck with the studies, man!

@Shuppet:
I think you might give Raveners a bit too much credit. They are one of my favorite models and thus I own 9 of them. However they can just use their "9 Attacks" in your own turn, since they cannot shoot in the opponents phase. Also they rely on getting into combat to fullfill their damage potential. But I agree that they can be very good in clearing screening units.

 Astmeister wrote:

 kestral wrote:
I played my first game and and found it interesting and reasonably fun. I will say that lictors are so weird that they were kind of useful. Mine prevented overwatch vs other units by charging first (at -1 to hit overwatch can't hit, right?), caused some plasma sentinels to blow up, got into terrain and were hard to dig out. They could really use some kind of hit and run rule though.

Spore mines were only useful for blocking a charge and and because my opponent thought they were dangerous.

Old One eye is, indeed, the man.

The speed of the big bugs in impressive. Weird that termigants are so slow though.

I hate the new terrain rules or lack thereoff. They are very jammy and situational where they used to be my best friend running nids.

Overwatch always hits on 6+ regardless of modifiers.
Concerning the -1 to hit:
A Plasma gun blows up on a roll of 2, instead of a roll of 1. However, a roll of 1 does not cause it to blow up. This is weird but RAW.

A roll can never go below 1, so with a -1 modifier and overcharge, plasma blows up on a 1 or 2. (Think this is in the designer's commentary).

That is interesting zerosignal. Thanks for the comment.

I've been experimenting with various tyranid options, and I got in a couple more games yesterday.

I am completely perplexed what you guys see in biovores. Neither of my games had ideal targets for them, but I still feel that they are incredibly underwhelming for the points costs. Just not nearly enough damage output. Might be my experience in the 1st game skewed me a bit, because on turns 1-3 my squad of 3 biovores got 1 hit per turn, and rolled a 1 on the damage, so it was turn 4 before they did their 1st wound, but even if I'd been hitting lights out and averaging 2 mortal wounds a turn, they are so amazingly point inefficient compared to the rest of my list..

Took traditional Dakkafexes against a guy playing his 1st game of 8th. I knew they wouldn't be good, but I played them wrong, and forgot to use the tail attack, so they felt extremely abysmal in CC. Should have remembered the tail.

One game featured a single dakkajet. My Genestealer + Dakkafex list felt a little lacking in tools to threaten it, and it put a pretty good hurt on the stealers. I did manage to smite it for 5.

@Tag, did those Biovore misses do anything useful with their Spores though? Did they absorb any shots that would've gone into other units? Did they block deep-strikes? Did those misses change charge lanes?

Biovore do, arguably more tactical work when they miss than when they hit. :-p

tag8833 wrote:
I've been experimenting with various tyranid options, and I got in a couple more games yesterday.

I am completely perplexed what you guys see in biovores. Neither of my games had ideal targets for them, but I still feel that they are incredibly underwhelming for the points costs. Just not nearly enough damage output. Might be my experience in the 1st game skewed me a bit, because on turns 1-3 my squad of 3 biovores got 1 hit per turn, and rolled a 1 on the damage, so it was turn 4 before they did their 1st wound, but even if I'd been hitting lights out and averaging 2 mortal wounds a turn, they are so amazingly point inefficient compared to the rest of my list..

Took traditional Dakkafexes against a guy playing his 1st game of 8th. I knew they wouldn't be good, but I played them wrong, and forgot to use the tail attack, so they felt extremely abysmal in CC. Should have remembered the tail.

One game featured a single dakkajet. My Genestealer + Dakkafex list felt a little lacking in tools to threaten it, and it put a pretty good hurt on the stealers. I did manage to smite it for 5.

Biovores are not huge damage dealers but can instead reliably ping down a couple of wounds even on the heaviest targets. Also the major strength comes from the fact that they can block lines with the spore mines you place, when you do not hit with them.
Oh and they can now target units which are hiding. This can be very good under certain circumstances.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also there is an interesting article about a tournament in the UK, where a Girlyman + 5 Stormraven list dominated everything.

See here:
https://www.warhammer-tactics.com/single-post/2017/07/03/How-much-wood-could-a-wood-chuck-chuck-if-wood-chuck-was-a-Stormraven

Do we have any plan on how to deal with that? It is of course very similar to the 2 Stormraven + 3 Stormhawks we talked about earlier. However, this seems a lot more brutal... :-(

Flyers being immune to assault shouldn't be a thing. I get that its thematic, but it turns the game into a coinflip of what list you brought in far too many circumstances. There should be a penalty for assaulting them just like for shootingg, but not literal invulnerability.

Astmeister wrote:

He got a LOT better actually, probably the most improved model in the army. Cheaper points cost, 3+ armor while retaining the 5+ Invul, ability to pick their powers, Scything Talons that actually do stuff, and Psychic Overload no longer requires a psychic test to activate and just causes a mortal wound on a 2+ instead of the convoluted Ld check it used to require (and as a bonus, since it isn't a shooting attack it can be allocated to characters hiding in the ranks). It also gets an innate +1 to manifest powers that isn't effected by damage (unlike the Lord of Change), so Smite goes off on a 4+ (and deals D6 damage on a 9+) and Tyranid powers go off on 5+, making it far more reliable than the other psykers if you really need a particular power to be cast.

I'm GLAD someone else thinks that they have improved. I've been wanting to run one since they first came out, but was never a fan of the last 2 editions of 40K. So I have a question for you about this unit.

What battlefield roll would this unit play? Support or a Front Line unit? Psychic powers make it more of a support, but the unique power that it posses makes you want to throw it up front and hit a lot of things. Especially with is physical stats. Still perplexed how to use this unit.

 Astmeister wrote:

Also there is an interesting article about a tournament in the UK, where a Girlyman + 5 Stormraven list dominated everything.

See here:
https://www.warhammer-tactics.com/single-post/2017/07/03/How-much-wood-could-a-wood-chuck-chuck-if-wood-chuck-was-a-Stormraven

Do we have any plan on how to deal with that? It is of course very similar to the 2 Stormraven + 3 Stormhawks we talked about earlier. However, this seems a lot more brutal... :-(

I've been building with taking on flyer spam lists in mind. I'm settling down on two possibilities


Flyrant w/ Rending Claws + AG + TS
Flyrant w/ Rending Claws + AG + TS
Flyrant w/ Rending Claws + AG + TS
Flyrant w/ Rending Claws + AG + TS

3x Rippers

Red Terror

9x Raveners w/ Spinefists
9x Raveners w/ Spinefists
9x Raveners w/ Spinefists
9x Raveners w/ Spinefists
9x Raveners w/ Spinefists


Self explanatory how it plays vs regular lists for the most part, Flyrants are heavy AT and Raveners chew threw everything else. In the match against flyers if 4 Flyrants isn't enough, might step up to 5 and drop a Ravener unit.



The other thing I was considering

GSC:

Patriach
Patriach
Magus
Acolyte Iconward

10x Neophyte Hybrids

20x Purestrain Genestealer
20x Purestrain Genestealer
20x Purestrain Genestealer

AM:

Company Commander

Infantry Squad

Heavy Weapons Squad w/ Mortars
Heavy Weapons Squad w/ Mortars
3x Hydras w/ Heavy Bolter + Heavy Stubber + HKM
3x Hydras w/ Heavy Bolter + Heavy Stubber + HKM


this one looks a bit more fun. Self explanatory how it plays vs regular armies, Hydra Autocannons have the same damage output as Deathspitter Carnifexes for the same price, so they aren't wasted points vs ground armies and they have other guns too. But against flyers, it forces them to come into 24" or even 12" range to kill them, because every turn they don't they lose a flyer and a half. From there the 3x Psykers can Mind Control some flyers and turn them against each other.


Don't know how well either will work. But they don't autolose at least.

I'm most likely to go with the first list first since I have (almost) all the models. Second one looks more fun though.

 Astmeister wrote:

Also there is an interesting article about a tournament in the UK, where a Girlyman + 5 Stormraven list dominated everything.

See here:
https://www.warhammer-tactics.com/single-post/2017/07/03/How-much-wood-could-a-wood-chuck-chuck-if-wood-chuck-was-a-Stormraven

Do we have any plan on how to deal with that? It is of course very similar to the 2 Stormraven + 3 Stormhawks we talked about earlier. However, this seems a lot more brutal... :-(

Could try fighting fire with fire maybe... Crones and Harpies are both a good deal cheaper (almost half the cost in the case of the Crone) and can assault due to being fliers themselves. I imagine a Gargoyle swarm backed by Venomthropes might also be problematic for them, since they both clog the board and can happily assault regardless of what mode the fliers are in.

 Third_Age_of_Baggz wrote:

I'm GLAD someone else thinks that they have improved. I've been wanting to run one since they first came out, but was never a fan of the last 2 editions of 40K. So I have a question for you about this unit.

What battlefield roll would this unit play? Support or a Front Line unit? Psychic powers make it more of a support, but the unique power that it posses makes you want to throw it up front and hit a lot of things. Especially with is physical stats. Still perplexed how to use this unit.

I haven't been able to run mine yet, but I think it ideally wants to be near the front lines to leverage all of its abilities. As said prior, Psychic Overload looks as though it can be used to put wounds on characters hanging out with opposing squads, but its main focus should probably be to cast powers that you really need to go off (any of ours could qualify, depending on the tactical needs of the list) and provide an additional melee threat. In terms of targets, it should do nicely against opposing monsters and terminator-style troops, since it does get a save against high AP attacks and it can dish out mortal wounds in return via Smite or Overload depending on which would be more optimal. If you need it an anvil, it can always cast Catalyst on itself for a 3+/5++/5+ FNP too.

In many/most 'Nid lists your very same deep-strike denying hordes, can occupy obscene amounts of table-space, forcing at least 1-2 of those Flyers, per turn, to hover. Once assault-able, they turn to mush against 'Nids.

I would argue if the all heavy flyer thing manages to stick around for more than a minute in the meta, it will become something we need to out-play, rather than list tailor-for.

Raveners being able to pop up on their own should definitely not be discounted. That's a big deal. I don't have a lot of the models (don't like the newest sculpt and haven't been motivated to pick up the older ones yet) but I think they're definitely very good. A little outshone by Genestealers, but what isn't?

Speaking of the GSC points change for Genestealers, I don't doubt that they were intended to be 12 points per model with their equipment, just like Tyranid genestealers. But even if they are FAQ'd a second time to change that, I'd still have no issue taking as many as I am currently. I actually misread it originally (literally thinking the same thing that we presume GW did and costing them at 12 ppm) and I was still ecstatic. Amazing value, even at 12 points with gear. Would cut some other stuff out of my list if they upped their cost back to 12, but it wouldn't be a single Genestealer that left the army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

I would argue if the all heavy flyer thing manages to stick around for more than a minute in the meta, it will become something we need to out-play, rather than list tailor-for.

It won't once big tournaments do Maelstrom missions, or even maelstrom primaries/secondaries. Those lists almost auto lose maelstrom due to how objectives are held now. That's why I'm really not sweating ever seeing more than 1 or 2 flyers. And even then, I think treating them like a mini Death Star is the way to go. Can your list kill them? (Aka do you have like 2 or 3 exocrines?) if you can, go for it! If not, focus down the rest of his army. If he only has 2 planes left at the end of the game, chances are you've got it in the bag.

 Astmeister wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also there is an interesting article about a tournament in the UK, where a Girlyman + 5 Stormraven list dominated everything.

See here:
https://www.warhammer-tactics.com/single-post/2017/07/03/How-much-wood-could-a-wood-chuck-chuck-if-wood-chuck-was-a-Stormraven

Do we have any plan on how to deal with that? It is of course very similar to the 2 Stormraven + 3 Stormhawks we talked about earlier. However, this seems a lot more brutal... :-(

I just read that article. So what I took from that read was people have already found a way to break the game that hasn't been out for even a month....Greaaaaaaat! Just as I was dusting off my models...

 Third_Age_of_Baggz wrote:

 Astmeister wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also there is an interesting article about a tournament in the UK, where a Girlyman + 5 Stormraven list dominated everything.

See here:
https://www.warhammer-tactics.com/single-post/2017/07/03/How-much-wood-could-a-wood-chuck-chuck-if-wood-chuck-was-a-Stormraven

Do we have any plan on how to deal with that? It is of course very similar to the 2 Stormraven + 3 Stormhawks we talked about earlier. However, this seems a lot more brutal... :-(

I just read that article. So what I took from that read was people have already found a way to break the game that hasn't been out for even a month....Greaaaaaaat! Just as I was dusting off my models...

Its also a tournament that is already ignoring ITC fixes that the entire gaming community (Nova, etc...) have universally adopted, such as the "he who finished deploying first only gets +1 for roll off", so I wouldn't read much into it. And as stated above, this doesn't even acknowledge how poorly this would play in a meta with real scenarios built for tournament play.

That Papa Smurf list won't last. Wouldn't worry about it.

By the way, since I figure you guys would appreciate this the most, I think I've finalized my competitive list. It is all GSC + AM, but the reason why I wanted to mention it here is because I'm super proud of the theme. I've got 11 zoats subjugating the guardsmen. 2 power fist dudes are a commissar and a company commander, 3 multi melta dudes are heavy weapons batteries, and the 6 fleshborer dudes are "sentries" aka search lights. Going to scratch build some earthshaker batteries using the giant acid spray gun and build it up from there.

Might also incorporate some of the old old Zoanthropes. Maybe a big brother needs to watch from the top of each Taurox prime so that they keep in line? Might even change some of the Taurox weapons out for barbed stranglers or something.

I'm also going to use regular Catachans as the conscripts so that it's really like they're just being forced to fight for the Hive Mind. More GSC than Nids per se, but I think it's a pretty cool army conversion.

I know it's not really tactics per se, but it makes me a lot happier being able to feel like it's still Tyranids and that I'm still fighting for the Hive Mind. Because I always will And I feel like some other people might appreciate the conversion ideas.

And the list?

I'm not super active in this thread, but I would agree it seems pretty lame if we are heavily considering AM/IG artillery spam to make nids competitive.

That is very off-putting to the silent majority who are reading and not responding.

It also feels like a waste of time reading all those posts talking about GSC + AM, when its supposed to be a Tyranid thread.

I would encourage the discussion of those armies in an independent thread, as people trying to play those hyrbrids would also see a really sparse amount of discussion in this thread as there would be a lot of posts that have nothing to do with it.

If you need to buy certain Tyranid models to be competitive (like Malantrhope, Tyrant Guard for your Swarmy, Broodlord + Genestealers, etc...) that is one toll to play, but having to dedicate half your army into conscripts and artillery is an entirely off-beat investment, finance wise, and absolutely flavor wise.

Don't mean to be a "whiner" as somebody delicately put it, but I think that would help focus discussions for strategies featuring different cores to their armies.

DoggieDoo wrote:
I'm not super active in this thread, but I would agree it seems pretty lame if we are heavily considering AM/IG artillery spam to make nids competitive.

That is very off-putting to the silent majority who are reading and not responding.

It also feels like a waste of time reading all those posts talking about GSC + AM, when its supposed to be a Tyranid thread.

I would encourage the discussion of those armies in an independent thread, as people trying to play those hyrbrids would also see a really sparse amount of discussion in this thread as there would be a lot of posts that have nothing to do with it.

If you need to buy certain Tyranid models to be competitive (like Malantrhope, Tyrant Guard for your Swarmy, Broodlord + Genestealers, etc...) that is one toll to play, but having to dedicate half your army into conscripts and artillery is an entirely off-beat investment, finance wise, and absolutely flavor wise.

Don't mean to be a "whiner" as somebody delicately put it, but I think that would help focus discussions for strategies featuring different cores to their armies.

You don't need the "spam" to be competitive... Luke and I... apparently concurrently discovered that with an absolute minimum of tax, one could get access to a couple anti-horde options which were intended to just cut through chaff/bubble-wrap, the one thing competitive 'Nids could've benefitted from.

As I stand by, an absolutely token amount of thematic tax (IE a single unit of Stealers "technically" as an Auxillery GSC detachment", means you could grab a unit of 3 Heavy Quad Mortars (which i've been modeling out of spare Haruspex head assemblies), and significantly buff an army still 85% pure Tyranid.

Though Luke did end up going off the rails and apparently removing 'Nids altogether from his "Nid" list... it doesn't make the original point any less powerful or valid. I would say it just didn't need to go to such an extreme.

zamerion wrote:
And the list?

I'll toss it over in the GSC section.

Doggie is right though. The Nid thread has been a little derailed by the "new hotness" of having guns that actually work. Only reason I was posting about my list is because it was important to me to make my non-Nid components still feel Tyranid, and I thought some other people who might want to try those units might also have those feelings.

Worth pointing out, though, that the entire GSC Detachment in my list are all Genestealers or patriarchs (models that could easily be played in a pure Tyranids army/detachment, just with slightly different unit names and abilities)

I may be crazy but gsc has a big fat Tyranid keyword so more power to you guys. This is really enlightening and a lot of stuff I wouldn't have considered but could be really fun and an awesome conversion opportunity so I hope the discussion continues and thank you for tour contributions.

I'm hoping to pick up some guard from an old friend soon and had just intended to use them as spire guard for my 1k sons but now I have the opportunity for dual conversions for pure conversion purposes I wish I had an excuse to tyrranize(?) a renegade knight. Some capillary towers from his back/shoulders. Think with a decent conversion it could pass as a barbed or scything heirodule?

On that note I really haven't seen anything on the tactics for the super heavy nids. Can we get a discussion on those guys?

In my opinion I personally see the barbed heirodule as the better melee variant because its was stays the same and ironically the scything heirodule never misses shooting but its degrading was hurts.

I'm converting some malanthropes now and did a custom dimaecheron (though its a bit smol)

How do harridans play? I swear to god Ive always wanted one but just haven't convinced myself to save up for one yet.

Also Ive heard conflicting reports on the crusher fexes flail on gw they replace all attacks for it but there were people claiming that fw responded that its in addition to (fw hasn't answered any of my questions like the dimas typo on his weapon or the malanthropes)

I actually made a Tyranid knight exclusively out of a Tervigon kit (and a fair amount of green stuff haha, but no real sculpting; just as gap filler. Also used a little plastic that I carved to make a giant bone sword looking thing

I agree that the Barbed Hierodule is better than the Scythed. I haven't played with a Harridan yet this edition, but my friend who has has found it to be underwhelming. It used to be able to pretty reliably pop 2 rhinos a turn; no longer. It's not bad, but the main draw used to be its insane durability. Now....eh. I absolutely love the model though. I just think it should cost 100-200 less points.

I like the conversion idea, but I think I would sooner start with something like a Maulerfiend or something that has more of a lower/4 legged profile. Size-wise it works though.

The typo on the Dimachaeron is pretty clear what it's supposed to be. I don't think anyone will be surprised when the FAQ drops on that one.

The stone crusher they actually just put a faction focus article up about. Exchanges all of its attacks. Still much better than a regular fex. I think OOE and 3 of those dudes is excellent. 10/10 would do 1 claw and bio flail

 luke1705 wrote:

I agree that the Barbed Hierodule is better than the Scythed. I haven't played with a Harridan yet this edition, but my friend who has has found it to be underwhelming. It used to be able to pretty reliably pop 2 rhinos a turn; no longer. It's not bad, but the main draw used to be its insane durability. Now....eh. I absolutely love the model though. I just think it should cost 100-200 less points.

Personally am feeling that the Scythed is better - sure, it's annoying that he deteriorates in terms of WS, but he still has far more attacks than Barbie, and his gun is pretty nice (especially as he can fire it whilst in melee), whilst I feel that the Bio Cannon are extremely mediocre on a knight equivalent platform. Dropping to Str8 really sucks, especially since at best it's hitting on 4s. I am also not sold on the Harridan for the cost, though it is essentially a Hierodule that can get into melee ANYWHERE on the board turn one (without Hive Commander)...

The typo on the Dimachaeron is pretty clear what it's supposed to be. I don't think anyone will be surprised when the FAQ drops on that one.

I think someone got an email confirming it was supposed to be on hits yeah, so fully expecting that in the FAQ next weekend.

The stone crusher they actually just put a faction focus article up about. Exchanges all of its attacks. Still much better than a regular fex. I think OOE and 3 of those dudes is excellent. 10/10 would do 1 claw and bio flail

Even with the least powerful interpretation being the case (presumably it overrides the Bone Mace too??) I think Stonecrushers will be amazing horde clearance with the ability to go anti-tank if need be. Loss of AG is unfortunate, but even without it they outclass normal melee fexes in anti-tank and anti-horde capacity - the only niche for them now is with at least one set of gun arms really, which is unfortunate. That said, not sure whether a footslogging fex-heavy army will end up being viable, but we can hope!

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:In many/most 'Nid lists your very same deep-strike denying hordes, can occupy obscene amounts of table-space, forcing at least 1-2 of those Flyers, per turn, to hover. Once assault-able, they turn to mush against 'Nids.

I would argue if the all heavy flyer thing manages to stick around for more than a minute in the meta, it will become something we need to out-play, rather than list tailor-for.

They can move up to 45". Running so many hordes that you force them to hover honestly sounds like the kind of list that would play too slow to compete.

luke1705 wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

I would argue if the all heavy flyer thing manages to stick around for more than a minute in the meta, it will become something we need to out-play, rather than list tailor-for.

It won't once big tournaments do Maelstrom missions, or even maelstrom primaries/secondaries. Those lists almost auto lose maelstrom due to how objectives are held now. That's why I'm really not sweating ever seeing more than 1 or 2 flyers. And even then, I think treating them like a mini Death Star is the way to go. Can your list kill them? (Aka do you have like 2 or 3 exocrines?) if you can, go for it! If not, focus down the rest of his army. If he only has 2 planes left at the end of the game, chances are you've got it in the bag.

This is a good perspective, hopefully that's the case.

DoggieDoo wrote:
I'm not super active in this thread, but I would agree it seems pretty lame if we are heavily considering AM/IG artillery spam to make nids competitive.

That is very off-putting to the silent majority who are reading and not responding.

You don't speak for ANYONE but yourself, do not get it confused.

DoggieDoo wrote:

If you need to buy certain Tyranid models to be competitive (like Malantrhope, Tyrant Guard for your Swarmy, Broodlord + Genestealers, etc...) that is one toll to play, but having to dedicate half your army into conscripts and artillery is an entirely off-beat investment, finance wise, and absolutely flavor wise.

Then perhaps you should make a new thread for non-competitive but accurate to the fluff Nids, because this isn't it. This is the place to discuss competitive Nids, and that covers both the use of allies, or the use of without.

Is it necessary to compete? Do we NEED these? Is it how we make the best to compete in the meta? Maybe, maybe not. We don't know yet - this is why we have discussions on the topic.

 luke1705 wrote:
I actually made a Tyranid knight exclusively out of a Tervigon kit (and a fair amount of green stuff haha, but no real sculpting; just as gap filler. Also used a little plastic that I carved to make a giant bone sword looking thing

Share pics! Sounds awesome.

I definitely will post some pics when I get home to it. I'm actually pretty proud of the conversion (although not the half-finished paintjob lol)

 SHUPPET wrote:
Flyers being immune to assault shouldn't be a thing. I get that its thematic, but it turns the game into a coinflip of what list you brought in far too many circumstances. There should be a penalty for assaulting them just like for shootingg, but not literal invulnerability.

Most flyers are not immune.. only Supersonic ones

Thinking about trying this out next week at the shop:

Battalion Detachment:

HQ: 1x Tervigon
HQ: 1x Tervigon

ELITES: 6x Hive Guard
ELITES: 6x Hive Guard

TROOPS: 30x Termagants
TROOPS: 30x Termagants
TROOPS: 30x Termagants

HEAVY: 1x Exocrine
HEAVY: 1x Exocrine
HEAVY: 3x Biovores

Comes to 2000 points on the dot and actually has a fair amount of quality shooting (Hive Guard and Exocrines hit on 3's when stationary, 24 S8 AP-2 D3 damage shots and 24 S7 AP-3 2 damage shots per turn coupled with the odd mortal wound from spore mines) and a bunch of S4 and S5 for chaff clearing. No venomthropes/malanthropes might be an issue, might have to drop a few Hive Guard or Termagants to make room for some...

GodDamUser wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Flyers being immune to assault shouldn't be a thing. I get that its thematic, but it turns the game into a coinflip of what list you brought in far too many circumstances. There should be a penalty for assaulting them just like for shootingg, but not literal invulnerability.

Most flyers are not immune.. only Supersonic ones

yeah that's what I'm saying shouldn't be a thing

 Strat_N8 wrote:
Thinking about trying this out next week at the shop:

Battalion Detachment:

HQ: 1x Tervigon
HQ: 1x Tervigon

ELITES: 6x Hive Guard
ELITES: 6x Hive Guard

TROOPS: 30x Termagants
TROOPS: 30x Termagants
TROOPS: 30x Termagants

HEAVY: 1x Exocrine
HEAVY: 1x Exocrine
HEAVY: 3x Biovores

Comes to 2000 points on the dot and actually has a fair amount of quality shooting (Hive Guard and Exocrines hit on 3's when stationary, 24 S8 AP-2 D3 damage shots and 24 S7 AP-3 2 damage shots per turn coupled with the odd mortal wound from spore mines) and a bunch of S4 and S5 for chaff clearing. No venomthropes/malanthropes might be an issue, might have to drop a few Hive Guard or Termagants to make room for some...

You don't have a way to really deal with assault armies that can tie your units up and make sure they can't shoot. Too many eggs in one basket I think.

90 Termagants would beg to disagree with you on that point. My thinking is I think the list has too much durability and too little ability to actually kill things. Especially hordes, although the termagants help some there.

DoggieDoo wrote:


That is very off-putting to the silent majority who are reading and not responding.

It also feels like a waste of time reading all those posts talking about GSC + AM, when its supposed to be a Tyranid thread.

Please do not say you speak for a silent majority. Everyone have different opinions. Your opinion is valued but you do not represent anyone else.

GSC is part of Tyranid, and this a tactic threads for Tyranid. Like it or not, once this is an option, Tyranid competitive players, will have to factor that option in.

I am building 2 GSC (3x 20 purestrains) lists, one with a AM detachment with conscripts and artillery or scions, otherwise another list with a tyranid artillery detachment of Hive Guards and Biovores.

I am actually very excited about the supportive firepower of the Hive Guards & Biovores, especially sine they dont need LoS, and handle units that genestealers struggle against!

 SHUPPET wrote:


A unit that I think is flying under the radar is Spinefist Ravener. They are each rolling 9 dice a turn in combat, and give them Red Terror support and the majority of those dice are 2+ S4 attacks and re-rolling on miss.

.

Spinefist are str 3 though aren't they? And the Spinefist shots are rolled in the shooting phase, just no restriction even if you're within 1'' of an enemy?

I feel like they're good but I'd be forking out the 2 points for Rending. You can still use your 1 pair of Scything talons vsing chaff for the re-rolls but Rending makes them a threat to almost anything for only 2 pts and the loss of 1 atk.

 Zande4 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:


A unit that I think is flying under the radar is Spinefist Ravener. They are each rolling 9 dice a turn in combat, and give them Red Terror support and the majority of those dice are 2+ S4 attacks and re-rolling on miss.

.

Spinefist are str 3 though aren't they? And the Spinefist shots are rolled in the shooting phase, just no restriction even if you're within 1'' of an enemy?

I feel like they're good but I'd be forking out the 2 points for Rending. You can still use your 1 pair of Scything talons vsing chaff for the re-rolls but Rending makes them a threat to almost anything for only 2 pts and the loss of 1 atk.

yeah they are S3, but less than half of his dice so thats why I said majority have that CC profile. Rending is an option, just preference I guess. By "a turn" I meant in your own turn, it's not like Devilgants are rolling 90 dice in your opponents turn either.

Deshkar wrote:


I am actually very excited about the supportive firepower of the Hive Guards & Biovores, especially sine they dont need LoS, and handle units that genestealers struggle against!

I really like this now that I've stopped playing it wrong re: granting cover for being obscured. I had thought that you just needed to be 50% obscured for an infantry unit, so I was always giving cover saves vs stuff that was out of LOS. But they actually still have to be in terrain. Big deal there.

I actually totally agree with DoggieDoo. For me it is kind of off-topic to discuss lists here, which only consists of a minority of Hive Fleet Tyranid models. For GSC there is the other thread. And personally I would like it, if there was a new thread discussing competitive Tyranids (GSC + AM whatever).

Like the title of the thread suggests, this is not a discussion about competitive Tyranids. It is a thread about "Tyranid Tactics". And if you are just discussing about the super competitive things, this is for me not really part of it. Because than the thread will drown in this not talking about less competitive tactics or units.

Is it not possible that you discuss WAAC tactics in a separate "Competetive Tyranids" thread, which we actually already have?

I wish people would stop saying GSC are part of Tyranids, they have a separate codex

Guess what Grey Knights aren't part of Space Marines Codex, because they are in a DIFFERENT codex even though they are both MARINES and both in power armour.

Different codex, how hard is that to get? There is actually a thread on the first page of the 40k Tactics section called competitive Tyranids.

 Astmeister wrote:
I actually totally agree with DoggieDoo. For me it is kind of off-topic to discuss lists here, which only consists of a minority of Hive Fleet Tyranid models. For GSC there is the other thread. And personally I would like it, if there was a new thread discussing competitive Tyranids (GSC + AM whatever).

Like the title of the thread suggests, this is not a discussion about competitive Tyranids. It is a thread about "Tyranid Tactics". And if you are just discussing about the super competitive things, this is for me not really part of it. Because than the thread will drown in this not talking about less competitive tactics or units.

Is it not possible that you discuss WAAC tactics in a separate "Competetive Tyranids" thread, which we actually already have?

This is pretty interesting interpretation of what Tactics means. Tyranid Tactics includes tactics of taking allies. Discussing how to build competitively is basically the definition of that, and it's all encompassing, everyone will contribute to people who want tactics for less competitive play at all.

 Astmeister wrote:
if you are just discussing about the super competitive things, this is for me not really part of it. Because than the thread will drown in this not talking about less competitive tactics or units.

That's not the case at all. Nobody talking competitive play is trying to shut down other talk, the only people trying to shut down any discussion that they aren't interested in... is you :S Also, there is nothing WAAC about taking allies or building a list to cover your holes, read my sig because you are misusing the term. The OP has said himself this is a thread for competitive Tyranid discussion. There's plenty of room for whatever else you want to add to that as well. Whats the problem?

No other tactica thread has this issue. Seems to a few Nids players not used to having allies. This was a topic that came up a million times in 6th and 7th, how unfair the ally chart was, how Nids deserve to be allies with AM due to thematic reasons, GSC deserves to be an army, etc, etc. Now that we finally have it, you can bet that we're not going to stop talking about it just because you only want to run Bugs. That's your call, don't try to make it everyone elses.

 Astmeister wrote:
this is for me not really part of it.

And for us it is. If it's not for you then talk about things relevant to yourself. OP has said that competitive Tyranid discussion belongs here, so you might be in the wrong thread if you don't want to see that at all.

Jaq Draco lives wrote:
I wish people would stop saying GSC are part of Tyranids, they have a separate codex

Guess what Grey Knights aren't part of Space Marines Codex, because they are in a DIFFERENT codex even though they are both MARINES and both in power armour.

Different codex, how hard is that to get?

The codex name is Tyranids: Genestealer Cult, but eh, thats whatever. Even if it wasn't Tyranids, thats irrelevant. They are our allies, thus their tools and options are very relevant to our own army.

Stop trying to fracture the community. You've made 6 posts in the last few pages alone trying to kick out people actually discussing the game and the options available to this army, while contributing no actual topics or relevant info yourself. The people who want to talk about GSC have outright told you they aren't going to stop, you aren't going to be able to make anybody do so, so at this point you are just derailing the thread.

Jaq Draco lives wrote:
There is actually a thread on the first page of the 40k Tactics section called competitive Tyranids.

A thread made after this, a thread in which literally, the first response is from Lance845, the OP of this thread, saying that this is EXACTLY what this thread here is already for. Why would we split the community?

Like it or not, you are wrong, and if you are looking for something else you should make that thread yourself.

I also like how you made a post in that thread just to say "If you are going to play like that just quit 40k now" so it's clear that even if we did all move to that thread, you'd still have an issue with it. Seems the problem here is with you. Some people play competitive, some don't, nobody is forcing you participate in competitive discussion, this is a broad thread with many topics. Get over it, move on, and stop disrupting the thread =) we want MORE Tyranid discussion and more people in the one thread, not less.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Astmeister wrote:

Jaq Draco lives wrote:
I wish people would stop saying GSC are part of Tyranids, they have a separate codex

Guess what Grey Knights aren't part of Space Marines Codex, because they are in a DIFFERENT codex even though they are both MARINES and both in power armour.

Different codex, how hard is that to get?

The codex name is Tyranids: Genestealer Cult, but eh, thats whatever. Even if it wasn't Tyranids, thats irrelevant. They are our allies, thus their tools and options are very relevant to our own army.

Stop trying to fracture the community. You've made 6 posts in the last few pages alone trying to kick out people actually discussing the game and the options available to this army, while contributing no actual topics or relevant info yourself. The people who want to talk about GSC have outright told you they aren't going to stop, you aren't going to be able to make anybody do so, so at this point you are just derailing the thread.

Jaq Draco lives wrote:
There is actually a thread on the first page of the 40k Tactics section called competitive Tyranids.

A thread made after this, a thread in which literally, the first response is from Lance845, the OP of this thread, saying that this is EXACTLY what this thread here is already for. Why would we split the community?

Like it or not, you are wrong, and if you are looking for something else you should make that thread yourself.

I also like how you made a post in that thread "If you are going to play like that just quit 40k now" so it's clear that even if we did all move to that thread, you'd still have an issue with it. Seems the problem here is with you. Some people play competitive, some don't, nobody is forcing you participate in competitive discussion, this is a broad thread with many topics. Get over it, move on, and stop disrupting the thread =) we want MORE Tyranid discussion and more people in the one thread, not less.

Not really I left that thread as that isn't the kind of play I'm interested in you won't see me in there again. But I like how you talk about me trying to shut people down when truth is second reply you've made is to do exactly that to me as well. GSC does it have a separate codex yes or no?

And I'm not trying to shut people down I just get pissed off at really gakky logic that even though they have a separate codex its actually the same because it contains the same name, no no its a separate codex no two ways about it. Just like Grey Knights, very closely related but not the same army as its a separate entity.

What is the big problem with discussing GSC in a GSC thread? The person who posted the list doesn't actually have a problem with that. I didn't say a thing about allies as I've given up on that. If people want to discuss that as I said I'll stop.

Jaq Draco lives wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Astmeister wrote:

Jaq Draco lives wrote:
I wish people would stop saying GSC are part of Tyranids, they have a separate codex

Guess what Grey Knights aren't part of Space Marines Codex, because they are in a DIFFERENT codex even though they are both MARINES and both in power armour.

Different codex, how hard is that to get?

The codex name is Tyranids: Genestealer Cult, but eh, thats whatever. Even if it wasn't Tyranids, thats irrelevant. They are our allies, thus their tools and options are very relevant to our own army.

Stop trying to fracture the community. You've made 6 posts in the last few pages alone trying to kick out people actually discussing the game and the options available to this army, while contributing no actual topics or relevant info yourself. The people who want to talk about GSC have outright told you they aren't going to stop, you aren't going to be able to make anybody do so, so at this point you are just derailing the thread.

Jaq Draco lives wrote:
There is actually a thread on the first page of the 40k Tactics section called competitive Tyranids.

A thread made after this, a thread in which literally, the first response is from Lance845, the OP of this thread, saying that this is EXACTLY what this thread here is already for. Why would we split the community?

Like it or not, you are wrong, and if you are looking for something else you should make that thread yourself.

I also like how you made a post in that thread "If you are going to play like that just quit 40k now" so it's clear that even if we did all move to that thread, you'd still have an issue with it. Seems the problem here is with you. Some people play competitive, some don't, nobody is forcing you participate in competitive discussion, this is a broad thread with many topics. Get over it, move on, and stop disrupting the thread =) we want MORE Tyranid discussion and more people in the one thread, not less.

Not really I left that thread as that isn't the kind of play I'm interested in you won't see me in there again. But I like how you talk about me trying to shut people down when truth is second reply you've made is to do exactly that to me as well. GSC does it have a separate codex yes or no?

And I'm not trying to shut people down I just get pissed off at really gakky logic that even though they have a separate codex its actually the same because it contains the same name, no no its a separate codex no two ways about it. Just like Grey Knights, very closely related but not the same army as its a separate entity.

What is the big problem with discussing GSC in a GSC thread? The person who posted the list doesn't actually have a problem with that. I didn't say a thing about allies as I've given up on that. If people want to discuss that as I said I'll stop.

Yes. People want to discuss that, this is a Tyranid thread and everything related to it. If i want to run Tyranid/GSC/AM, where would that put this at? IG or Tyranid or GSC? The commonality is still Tyranid.

What you're interested in is one thing, but it does not mean you get to choose what everyone else posts as long it is sufficiently related to Tyranid list building, concepts and strategies. If you want ideas/concepts, you can't wall off ideas in the first place, or cherrypick them.

Everyone is discussing about tyranids, and weighing probable options except you, who have been trying to shut anything that does not make you feel... comfortable.


That being said, I am considering the usage of Swarmlord + regular genes (hive commander combo) along with 2x Purestrain (1 Patriarch & Primus) , for a serious turn one assault. I prefer having more reliability in getting my 60 genestealer turn one charges off.

actually forget it


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deshkar wrote:


That being said, I am considering the usage of Swarmlord + regular genes (hive commander combo) along with 2x Purestrain (1 Patriarch & Primus) , for a serious turn one assault. I prefer having more reliability in getting my 60 genestealer turn one charges off.

And what fire support would you have for that list out of curiosity?

I think we should all calm down a bit. A lot of postings here sound really aggressive and that is absolutely unnecessary.

My only problem is that it seems that everyone is just not talking about the units and tactics of Hive Fleet Tyranids units and abilities anymore. So it seems that I have to read through a lot of things, I do not care about.

So I will make a new thread to only discuss Tyranids. However, I feel like there will be a huge loss of information, because we have to almost start over again in the new thread. Maybe this will not work, since nobody will want to follow two threads about this. But let's try....

Jaq Draco lives wrote:
I wish people would stop saying GSC are part of Tyranids, they have a separate codex

Guess what Grey Knights aren't part of Space Marines Codex, because they are in a DIFFERENT codex even though they are both MARINES and both in power armour.

Different codex, how hard is that to get? There is actually a thread on the first page of the 40k Tactics section called competitive Tyranids.

But I can field GSC + Tyranids in the same battle forged army, right?

I don't think I can field Tau and Eldar in the same battle forged army, for the same reason..

So someone who was considering to field a funky looking Rockcrusher, some screening termagants and a Imperial Valkyrie to transport a Magus (is that possible, transport wise?) - surely it would be reasonable to bring that up here.

Razerous wrote:

Jaq Draco lives wrote:
I wish people would stop saying GSC are part of Tyranids, they have a separate codex

Guess what Grey Knights aren't part of Space Marines Codex, because they are in a DIFFERENT codex even though they are both MARINES and both in power armour.

Different codex, how hard is that to get? There is actually a thread on the first page of the 40k Tactics section called competitive Tyranids.

But I can field GSC + Tyranids in the same battle forged army, right?

I don't think I can field Tau and Eldar in the same battle forged army, for the same reason..

So someone who was considering to field a funky looking Rockcrusher, some screening termagants and a Imperial Valkyrie to transport a Magus (is that possible, transport wise?) - surely it would be reasonable to bring that up here.

Absolutely. If you erased all tyranids from that list and put all AM instead? Then no.

SideshowLucifer wrote:
You don't have a way to really deal with assault armies that can tie your units up and make sure they can't shoot. Too many eggs in one basket I think.

The idea was more or less to take a page from the guard's book and use the Termagants to screen off the big guns from assault (90 bodies is a big footprint), then if charged either keep feeding the offender Termagants via Tervigons or else withdraw and shoot them to death. As long as even 1 Termagant remains alive, it can be brought back up to near full strength next turn, so ideally they can just attrition down softer melee threats.

 luke1705 wrote:
90 Termagants would beg to disagree with you on that point. My thinking is I think the list has too much durability and too little ability to actually kill things. Especially hordes, although the termagants help some there.

This is a fair point. What would you suggest to add some extra bite? I did a bit of inventory and found I'm 3 Hive Guard short from what I thought I had (might just be misplaced...), so I have 140-ish points to play with.

Razerous wrote:


[...] and a Imperial Valkyrie to transport a Magus (is that possible, transport wise?)

Nope, the transport ability still limits it to units with the AM keyword which the Magnus doesn't have. All the same, it is better to have him hiding with his fellows anyway, his Spiritual Leader aura is quite a powerful tool against opposing psykers and he can pass wounds off to grunts if needed.

Razerous wrote:

Jaq Draco lives wrote:
I wish people would stop saying GSC are part of Tyranids, they have a separate codex

Guess what Grey Knights aren't part of Space Marines Codex, because they are in a DIFFERENT codex even though they are both MARINES and both in power armour.

Different codex, how hard is that to get? There is actually a thread on the first page of the 40k Tactics section called competitive Tyranids.

But I can field GSC + Tyranids in the same battle forged army, right?

I don't think I can field Tau and Eldar in the same battle forged army, for the same reason..

So someone who was considering to field a funky looking Rockcrusher, some screening termagants and a Imperial Valkyrie to transport a Magus (is that possible, transport wise?) - surely it would be reasonable to bring that up here.

It's absolutely fine to branch out with topics, we can discuss lists from ANY army in here and it's relevance to Tyranids, just like we have been doing with the Stormraven builds, and will do for more builds in future. GSC and AM builds even without Nids included has relevant to classic Tyranids Bugs builds in that we can literally choose from any unit in their army, and literally use even the same models. There is no strict rules in here - if you feel something is relevant to Nids in any manner, feel free to discuss it!

Jaq Draco lives wrote:


Absolutely. If you erased all tyranids from that list and put all AM instead? Then no.

There's been literally one post to fit that description to date. And how many arguing about it now? I think it's time to drop it, man, this is disrupting the thread far more than anything else has even come close to.
We have multiple posts in here containing lists with no GSC, Nids, or AM, just Ultramarines, and that's contributing far more than these arguments are. If it's relevant to Nids its relevant to Nids. No further rules need apply, nor attempt to be enforced by you.

Deshkar wrote:


That being said, I am considering the usage of Swarmlord + regular genes (hive commander combo) along with 2x Purestrain (1 Patriarch & Primus) , for a serious turn one assault. I prefer having more reliability in getting my 60 genestealer turn one charges off.

that sounds brutal. But you are doing it because you think Swarmlord is a more reliable way to make it to turn one combat than GSC ambush options, so that you get there more often? Wouldn't seeing that combo just give your opponent's more options to play around it, and at the cost of 300 pts? I mean, if you're already running GSC not sure if Swarmlord is worth it for units that can already ambush, maybe pushing a Dima or a Heirodule up there with them might be something to consider?

So I opened a new thread to simply discuss tactics about the Hive Fleet Tyranids:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/731670.page

I am not sure this will work out. We might split the Tyranid players and the more active members here are apparently all prefering the idea of this competitive thread.
We will see...

 SHUPPET wrote:

Razerous wrote:

Jaq Draco lives wrote:
I wish people would stop saying GSC are part of Tyranids, they have a separate codex

Guess what Grey Knights aren't part of Space Marines Codex, because they are in a DIFFERENT codex even though they are both MARINES and both in power armour.

Different codex, how hard is that to get? There is actually a thread on the first page of the 40k Tactics section called competitive Tyranids.

But I can field GSC + Tyranids in the same battle forged army, right?

I don't think I can field Tau and Eldar in the same battle forged army, for the same reason..

So someone who was considering to field a funky looking Rockcrusher, some screening termagants and a Imperial Valkyrie to transport a Magus (is that possible, transport wise?) - surely it would be reasonable to bring that up here.

It's absolutely fine to branch out with topics, we can discuss lists from ANY army in here and it's relevance to Tyranids, just like we have been doing with the Stormraven builds, and will do for more builds in future. GSC and AM builds even without Nids included has relevant to classic Tyranids Bugs builds in that we can literally choose from any unit in their army, and literally use even the same models. There is no strict rules in here - if you feel something is relevant to Nids in any manner, feel free to discuss it!

Jaq Draco lives wrote:


Absolutely. If you erased all tyranids from that list and put all AM instead? Then no.

There's been literally one post to fit that description to date. And how many arguing about it now? I think it's time to drop it, man, this is disrupting the thread far more than anything else has even come close to.
We have multiple posts in here containing lists with no GSC, Nids, or AM, just Ultramarines, and that's contributing far more than these arguments are. If it's relevant to Nids its relevant to Nids. No further rules need apply, nor attempt to be enforced by you.

You are the one keeping me posting by simply gaking on me every time I make a post so you drop it and I will but I will damn well reply to someone posting to me. But I am allowed to reply to that and if you don't like it you can go and fellate a pig for all I care because you don't get to stop me.

Gents, please keep in mind that Rule Number One around here is Be Polite. Thanks!

@Jaq Draco live

You are almost solely derailing this thread and completely disregarding rule #1

This is more off topic then GSC talk could ever be.

You're not going to stop anyone talking about Nids + GSC + AM if they want to in this thread.

@Astmeister As you said, You don't want to talk about it. Others do. You can skim over the post if they're not relevant to you. This isn't Twitch Chat with 100s of post a second, this thread has gained 3 pages in 3 days. It's not hard to keep up with.

For the love of all that is holy can we please drop this petty nonsense and get back to talking about actual gameplay.

Best way to get back on topic is to ignore the off topic stuff I've found. Conversation will drive itself.

So here's a question for the chat: anyone have any Tournaments they're gearing up for? I'm personally practicing for the ATC (American Team Championships) in under two weeks. Lists are due this Saturday, and they are using the recent FAQ so I had to do a list overhaul to cram as many purestrain Genestealers in as I could! Ended up with 3 large units (20/18/18) because I just couldn't quite justify dropping the 10 Devourers I keep on my gant screen for emergency anti infantry. Got my first game in with it yesterday and the Purestrains ran over a Brimstone space daemon list. Used Talons and a Patriarch to hit on 2+ rerollable and just drowned him in buckets of wounds!

Razerous wrote:


So someone who was considering to field a funky looking Rockcrusher, some screening termagants and a Imperial Valkyrie to transport a Magus (is that possible, transport wise?) - surely it would be reasonable to bring that up here.

Nah you can't do the transport trickery. They knew what they were doing when they wrote the keywords. GSC models don't have the Astra Militarum keyword, which is what you need to ride in a Valkyrie.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jifel wrote:
Best way to get back on topic is to ignore the off topic stuff I've found. Conversation will drive itself.

So here's a question for the chat: anyone have any Tournaments they're gearing up for? I'm personally practicing for the ATC (American Team Championships) in under two weeks. Lists are due this Saturday, and they are using the recent FAQ so I had to do a list overhaul to cram as many purestrain Genestealers in as I could! Ended up with 3 large units (20/18/18) because I just couldn't quite justify dropping the 10 Devourers I keep on my gant screen for emergency anti infantry. Got my first game in with it yesterday and the Purestrains ran over a Brimstone space daemon list. Used Talons and a Patriarch to hit on 2+ rerollable and just drowned him in buckets of wounds!

Yep I've got 1 on the 22nd and 1 on the 30th. It is kind of crazy having to reorganize everything! Especially since I read the FAQ wrong when it first came out (thinking that purestrains were 12 ppm). I was still completely fine with that, so I re-did my list to accommodate 60 of them, only to find out that I can't read and they're 10 ppm!

It's an awesome problem to have haha, but it meant I got to re-do my list AGAIN! Man I need some time to playlets these things! And convert models...it's going to be a busy couple of weeks. What team are you playing on Jifel?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:
Gents, please keep in mind that Rule Number One around here is Be Polite. Thanks!

Totally off topic, but can I exalt everything about your profile?

There already exists a GC tactics thread. Sure this thread is good for AM+GC+HF, assuming HF is the main detachment, but if you are only going to talk about AM or GC or GC+AM, there are alread threads for those factions.

Requiet wrote:
I may be crazy but gsc has a big fat Tyranid keyword so more power to you guys. This is really enlightening and a lot of stuff I wouldn't have considered but could be really fun and an awesome conversion opportunity so I hope the discussion continues and thank you for tour contributions.

I'm hoping to pick up some guard from an old friend soon and had just intended to use them as spire guard for my 1k sons but now I have the opportunity for dual conversions for pure conversion purposes I wish I had an excuse to tyrranize(?) a renegade knight. Some capillary towers from his back/shoulders. Think with a decent conversion it could pass as a barbed or scything heirodule?

On that note I really haven't seen anything on the tactics for the super heavy nids. Can we get a discussion on those guys?

In my opinion I personally see the barbed heirodule as the better melee variant because its was stays the same and ironically the scything heirodule never misses shooting but its degrading was hurts.

I'm converting some malanthropes now and did a custom dimaecheron (though its a bit smol)

How do harridans play? I swear to god Ive always wanted one but just haven't convinced myself to save up for one yet.

Also Ive heard conflicting reports on the crusher fexes flail on gw they replace all attacks for it but there were people claiming that fw responded that its in addition to (fw hasn't answered any of my questions like the dimas typo on his weapon or the malanthropes)

Well, by fluff "House Mortimer(?)" is GSC infected...so you can convert, or just add one or more in. But I don't think there are rules to allow that right now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well, gents...against my better judgment I'm going to chime in just this once. This thread has no need for purity police. Least of all from folks who otherwise don't add anything. I figure Any, and all talk about Nids, or any friend, or foe of Nids is what it's about.

Somebody made a new thread for Nids (only?) so if you don't like rough language, maybe that one'll be more plesant? (Dunno)

Glad to hear Nids are representing. I am hoping to be able to transport safely in the next few years, so I may be able to see a few Tournies myself! And that is exiting (to me )

 Zande4 wrote:
@Jaq Draco live

You are almost solely derailing this thread and completely disregarding rule #1

This is more off topic then GSC talk could ever be.

You're not going to stop anyone talking about Nids + GSC + AM if they want to in this thread.

@Astmeister As you said, You don't want to talk about it. Others do. You can skim over the post if they're not relevant to you. This isn't Twitch Chat with 100s of post a second, this thread has gained 3 pages in 3 days. It's not hard to keep up with.

For the love of all that is holy can we please drop this petty nonsense and get back to talking about actual gameplay.

I have as I literally just said I am only replying to others and also I have contributed on nids before in this thread - so yes I've dropped it if people stop having a go at me I definitely will get back on topic? So drop it is a deal.

Moving on...

Now there has been some more play, how are people finding unguided / no-synapse backfield units? Or if not, what are good options for this, warriors with a VC or BS?

Also how essential are a couple of ripper squads or how mobile do units need to be. With the initial Trygon tunnels, you get excellent deployment but then I feel it all slows down?

 Zande4 wrote:

Tier 1: Devilgants & Wyverns

Tier 2: Dakkafex

Tier 3: Tyrannofex & Warriors

Edited Wyverns to T6 from T8

What about Taurox Primes w/ 5 man Scions? How does that compare?

Razerous wrote:
Moving on...

Now there has been some more play, how are people finding unguided / no-synapse backfield units? Or if not, what are good options for this, warriors with a VC or BS?

Also how essential are a couple of ripper squads or how mobile do units need to be. With the initial Trygon tunnels, you get excellent deployment but then I feel it all slows down?

Rippers are 33p, low profile (easy to hide) and can come in mid game to steal objectives, to me (and someone else told me this earlier in the thread) a minimum of one unit is an autotake. I'm personally thinking 2 units.

 jifel wrote:
Best way to get back on topic is to ignore the off topic stuff I've found. Conversation will drive itself.

So here's a question for the chat: anyone have any Tournaments they're gearing up for? I'm personally practicing for the ATC (American Team Championships) in under two weeks. Lists are due this Saturday, and they are using the recent FAQ so I had to do a list overhaul to cram as many purestrain Genestealers in as I could! Ended up with 3 large units (20/18/18) because I just couldn't quite justify dropping the 10 Devourers I keep on my gant screen for emergency anti infantry. Got my first game in with it yesterday and the Purestrains ran over a Brimstone space daemon list. Used Talons and a Patriarch to hit on 2+ rerollable and just drowned him in buckets of wounds!

Wait...you actually have 56 genestealers modeled with scything talons lol :O

That's a good question actually. I already have 12 Genestealers with Scythes that I used to use for my Ygmarls. What is everyone doing about Scytals on stealers? Should I model more? I intend to finish the first twelve and bring it to twenty but I was thinking of doing an additional 20, maybe convert some of the spacehulk models to have talons.

Does anyone think this will be regrettable? I'm sitting on 85 stealers at present and intend to run 60-80 per battle but I'm worried the free talons will bite me in the bum once we get our codex or first chapter approved update...

I really like the idea of all 80 having talons for the flexibility of the matter. Re-rolling 1's just seems so much more preferable against the hordes where as my rending will always be used against other targets MEQ+

I'm still trying to find a good source of biovores as well, I'm really interested in owning at least six, right now I have 2 of the really old insect ones (I love these) and 1 of the newer but old metal biovore that looks more like an ork :/ I really don't like that model so I'm wondering if anyone knows a good place to get biovores of a different sculpt or somewhere I can find the old metal ones on the cheaper side. Does anyone have any type of 3rd party site they like for nids? I have a really cool zoan I got third party like a decade ago (When Doom first came out) but I cant remember where I got that anymore. Same goes for pyrovores and lictors if anyone knows a place.


Finally, how many CP is too many in your guys opinions? Our Minimum sized Brigade only costs 651 if you're not abusing the undersized units rule. I could happily fluff up 2 brigades and have 21 CP if I don't take any other detachments at a tourney level.

Cheapest brigade btw is:
3x GSC Acolyte Iconwards (I'd upgrade two of these to magus for one brigade and get good HQs in the second like a malanthrope or two and broodlords/patriarchs plus maybe a flyrant?)
6x ripper swarms is the obvious cheap route but I havent decided the GSC/HF genestealers yet or would change list to list I think but it does change if I'm dropping rippers or lictors/pyrovores if I go GSC). 12 Objective grabbers at 9 wounds each unit seems annoying at 33 points each but not particularly useful outside of that. Definitely take a squad of Termagants as well, I'm in love with these little bastards now.
3x Pyrovores (Or 9 points more for the lictors which I like more)
3x Mucolid spores
3x Biovores

Things I'd love to play with more, Trygon Prime. Cant imagine not bringing him but I want to try so many other things.
Exocrine (Gotta buy them though xD Just built my first Tyrannofex as well)
I want Zoans to be good but besides one apoc game I played against a Tau/Marine team up against 3k of my nids where they just really wanted those zoans dead it hasn't been the best unit. I really love how you'd think there would be little synergy in the army with a 3++ save but the venomthrope/Malan making it harder to hit is such a perfect bonus. I do wish the neurothrope brought back dead models like a few people thought it might but I strictly don't play that way.
Also built a custom Dimachaeron but haven't gotten to test it yet. With all of the stealers Ive been running I'm not sure if he still has a place for cost vs damage output

Requiet wrote:
That's a good question actually. I already have 12 Genestealers with Scythes that I used to use for my Ygmarls. What is everyone doing about Scytals on stealers? Should I model more? I intend to finish the first twelve and bring it to twenty but I was thinking of doing an additional 20, maybe convert some of the spacehulk models to have talons.

Does anyone think this will be regrettable? I'm sitting on 85 stealers at present and intend to run 60-80 per battle but I'm worried the free talons will bite me in the bum once we get our codex or first chapter approved update...

Don't forget that GW said they will be periodically updating the matched play points over time. So even if they bring out a new codex, they could re-adjust the points a year or less down the road.

 wyomingfox wrote:

Requiet wrote:
That's a good question actually. I already have 12 Genestealers with Scythes that I used to use for my Ygmarls. What is everyone doing about Scytals on stealers? Should I model more? I intend to finish the first twelve and bring it to twenty but I was thinking of doing an additional 20, maybe convert some of the spacehulk models to have talons.

Does anyone think this will be regrettable? I'm sitting on 85 stealers at present and intend to run 60-80 per battle but I'm worried the free talons will bite me in the bum once we get our codex or first chapter approved update...

Don't forget that GW said they will be periodically updating the matched play points over time. So even if they bring out a new codex, they could re-adjust the points a year or less down the road.

Thats exactly what I'm afraid of lol
Easy enough to do the conversion especially because I am turning all of my hormagaunts into termagants so I'll have the scythes but turning them back if its regrettable makes me shudder

Requiet wrote:
Also built a custom Dimachaeron but haven't gotten to test it yet. With all of the stealers Ive been running I'm not sure if he still has a place for cost vs damage output

Please share pics!!

Requiet wrote:

 wyomingfox wrote:

Requiet wrote:
That's a good question actually. I already have 12 Genestealers with Scythes that I used to use for my Ygmarls. What is everyone doing about Scytals on stealers? Should I model more? I intend to finish the first twelve and bring it to twenty but I was thinking of doing an additional 20, maybe convert some of the spacehulk models to have talons.

Does anyone think this will be regrettable? I'm sitting on 85 stealers at present and intend to run 60-80 per battle but I'm worried the free talons will bite me in the bum once we get our codex or first chapter approved update...

Don't forget that GW said they will be periodically updating the matched play points over time. So even if they bring out a new codex, they could re-adjust the points a year or less down the road.

Thats exactly what I'm afraid of lol
Easy enough to do the conversion especially because I am turning all of my hormagaunts into termagants so I'll have the scythes but turning them back if its regrettable makes me shudder

Unbalanced or not, I kinda liked being able to commit to an army and knowing the models weren't going to change for at least a couple of years. Really not interested in building something, crossing my fingers, and then just having it nerfed after a game or two because GW feels it's performing too well. I mean I'm all for a balanced game, but I think they needed to spend a little more time balancing at the start and not midway through the releases of army rules.

Requiet wrote:
That's a good question actually. I already have 12 Genestealers with Scythes that I used to use for my Ygmarls. What is everyone doing about Scytals on stealers? Should I model more? I intend to finish the first twelve and bring it to twenty but I was thinking of doing an additional 20, maybe convert some of the spacehulk models to have talons.

Personally I have mostly all RC genes, and I am not planning on re-doing any. This is largely because I think the reroll 1s is gonna be pretty marginal gains at best (except VS daemons), so it really doesn't seem worth the effort! That said, I will be picking up some more (intend to up my 76 to 100) and all those will be getting talons.

I'm still trying to find a good source of biovores as well, I'm really interested in owning at least six, right now I have 2 of the really old insect ones (I love these) and 1 of the newer but old metal biovore that looks more like an ork :/ I really don't like that model so I'm wondering if anyone knows a good place to get biovores of a different sculpt or somewhere I can find the old metal ones on the cheaper side.

I also loathe the current Biovore model, and would recommend using Hive/Tyrant Guard as conversion fodder:



This is a super easy conversion that I found elsewhere online - basically you take the Impaler, GS it to the top of the body then etch lines in to look more organic, then spruce up with a few spikes and the Shockcannon tubes. You use one of the armour pieces from TG to cover the arm joint that you have to clip off, and I used spare Gene arms as you can see.

Is it just me or are Malanthropes actually a poor unit?

They fit in like, very niche builds, as they are wasted points if most your army is deepstriking or even running up the board and leaving it behind with its 5" movespeed. Then for a walking wall Nids list they have just 3" spore range, so you can fit like half your units in range of it, which may as well be none for the opening turns.

The unit feels extremely overrated to me, and even in lists where it's relevant I think I'd prefer the points spent on Warriors / Tprime combo. Maybe with 6" range on the spore cloud I'd reconsider, as it stands I feel like people theorycrafted way too hard when the rules were first released.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Is it just me or are Malanthropes actually a poor unit?

They fit in like, very niche builds, as they are wasted points if most your army is deepstriking or even running up the board and leaving it behind with its 5" movespeed. Then for a walking wall Nids list they have just 3" spore range, so you can fit like half your units in range of it, which may as well be none for the opening turns.

The unit feels extremely overrated to me, and even in lists where it's relevant I think I'd prefer the points spent on Warriors / Tprime combo. Maybe with 6" range on the spore cloud I'd reconsider, as it stands I feel like people theorycrafted way too hard when the rules were first released.

I think it has a niche, but I also think that niche is in babysitting our backline of gunbeasts - Exocrines, Biovores and Hive Guard. It is still a very cheap HQ slot that allows for more CP (remains to be seen whether it stays as cheap) and packs both Synapse (which they need) and a -1 to hit buff on a character platform that is immune to fire. If I weren't taking any of them I'd think hard about including one, as whilst a nice anchor, if the rest of your force is at all mobile (which it generally is with us) then it will rapidly be outpaced. If you're mixing a gunline with fast elements though, still nice to be able to give everyone that -1 to hit buff on turn one!

I'd personally disagree on that, if you assume that you can apply it to units not models in range as their emails have indicated. I prefer the Mal as a bundle venomthrope/synapse that can't be shot and directly buffs our monsters as well such as the exocrine. With Nids having relatively few transport options we often have more units than the enemy and thus have to weather a turn of shooting. Through lines and premeasuring it isn't that hard to keep one model in 3" I've found.

My gunline list is 6x DeathFex, 2x Fleshborer TFex, 1x Exocrine, and then some Termagants and some Warriors.


And then they all outspeed it within a turn anyway.

Adding 100pts tax to a unit of Biovores and Exocrine who are already overcosted seems like you are going to be taking a much weaker army overall. Warriors are so nice in this edition its hard to justify Malanthrope's impact over Warriors, as cool as the Malanthrope is.

Giving it a points increase would be GW signing it's death certificate. However, there's no reason to believe that would be happening, seems to be a speculative rumour created by some players who overrated it from the jump.

Guess it boils down to army preference. My list is half gunline half advancing, and my DakkaGants and Exocrenes rarely advance past midfield. Malanthrope sits tight in the middle for a much cheaper synapse character that helps protect the monsters. I don't like my synapse being shot down turns 1/2 while my Stealers wait in reserve.

On minimum model count for a unit, I'm reading that to say that the power level games must use the unit count given on the data sheet and in points match games you use the unit count that aligns with the unit counts at the point limit section of the book. So venoms and zoans have a minimum model count of 3 (as stated in the points section and data slate) and the hive guard/tyrant guard can be taken in model counts of 3 for power level games (dataslate) and 1-3 for points games (points section of xenos book). is that not how it's being interpreted? sorry if this is off tyranid topic, I'm new and want to play fair.

trasisi wrote:
On minimum model count for a unit, I'm reading that to say that the power level games must use the unit count given on the data sheet and in points match games you use the unit count that aligns with the unit counts at the point limit section of the book. So venoms and zoans have a minimum model count of 3 (as stated in the points section and data slate) and the hive guard/tyrant guard can be taken in model counts of 3 for power level games (dataslate) and 1-3 for points games (points section of xenos book). is that not how it's being interpreted? sorry if this is off tyranid topic, I'm new and want to play fair.

Tournaments are overruling the minimum model count rule, and most people are saying they wouldn't play against it in friendly matches. I'd say if you want to be SURE that you are playing fair - just bring the models needed to make the army you want to play.

I still haven't found a need nor desire to mix any allies in with my nids. The biggest hurdle I have is an abundance of fliers, and I think I can overcome that with more practice and list touch-ups.
Right now I just feel the army is so well rounded and can participate in nearly everything. It's a nice feeling.
All the local tournies disallow forgeworld stuff since they follow the ITC stuff and have a limit of basically one knight class unit, so sadly that means no malenthrope for me, but I run a lot of infantry so maybe ill give venomthropes a chance.

Not the answer I was expecting SHUPPET, but it's def the right advice. Thanks!

Razerous wrote:
Moving on...

Now there has been some more play, how are people finding unguided / no-synapse backfield units? Or if not, what are good options for this, warriors with a VC or BS?

Also how essential are a couple of ripper squads or how mobile do units need to be. With the initial Trygon tunnels, you get excellent deployment but then I feel it all slows down?

It really depends. I've found Genestealers to be exceedingly mobile. Average nearly a 12" move with the advance roll, and they can use charging, piling and consolidating to slingshot even further if the opponent has models in the area. Generally, if they're there waiting for you, you can get there pretty fast. Rippers are super solid now especially since Genestealers really should be Cult stealers IMO. You don't need the Trygon taxi and they're cheaper. So suddenly you need some more Nid troops. There are a lot worse ways to spend 99 points that 3 deep striking objective cappers/linebreaker units.


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 jifel wrote:
I'd personally disagree on that, if you assume that you can apply it to units not models in range as their emails have indicated. I prefer the Mal as a bundle venomthrope/synapse that can't be shot and directly buffs our monsters as well such as the exocrine. With Nids having relatively few transport options we often have more units than the enemy and thus have to weather a turn of shooting. Through lines and premeasuring it isn't that hard to keep one model in 3" I've found.

Well since you can't target models.....yeah you're good. And yes it's a very good unit. Definitely not niche. I don't think it's as auto take as it used to be, but it is very good still.


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trasisi wrote:
On minimum model count for a unit, I'm reading that to say that the power level games must use the unit count given on the data sheet and in points match games you use the unit count that aligns with the unit counts at the point limit section of the book. So venoms and zoans have a minimum model count of 3 (as stated in the points section and data slate) and the hive guard/tyrant guard can be taken in model counts of 3 for power level games (dataslate) and 1-3 for points games (points section of xenos book). is that not how it's being interpreted? sorry if this is off tyranid topic, I'm new and want to play fair.

This was answered in the FAQ. Regardless of which army composition rules you're using, hive guard and tyrant guard are 3-6 unit size.


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 SideshowLucifer wrote:
I still haven't found a need nor desire to mix any allies in with my nids. The biggest hurdle I have is an abundance of fliers, and I think I can overcome that with more practice and list touch-ups.
Right now I just feel the army is so well rounded and can participate in nearly everything. It's a nice feeling.
All the local tournies disallow forgeworld stuff since they follow the ITC stuff and have a limit of basically one knight class unit, so sadly that means no malenthrope for me, but I run a lot of infantry so maybe ill give venomthropes a chance.

Shame about disallowing Forge World! What do you mean "they follow the ITC stuff" though? The ITC doesn't disallow Forge World.

Would love to hear how you're dealing with flyers though. I think that's definitely one of our weaknesses. But you're right that Nids are very well rounded right now and capable of taking on quite a lot. It is a nice change

I've had 1 game with the Malanthrope and it was well worth the cost. Due to the size of it's base, it was pretty easy to get my entire army in it's aura on turn 1. After that, it managed to keep it's aura on dakkafexes as they moved up the field. Having a large base helps a lot. Consider that if a Carnifex and Malenthrope start side by side (Malanthrope sits back by half an inch so it can't be targeted), the Carnifex would have to move 5 or 6 inches faster than the Malanthrope for it's huge base to be out of range of the aura.

Probably unimportant but I did just get my reply from forgeworld that the dimas typo is a 6+ on the hit and that it wont be long for their faqs

Requiet wrote:
Probably unimportant but I did just get my reply from forgeworld that the dimas typo is a 6+ on the hit and that it wont be long for their faqs

Yeah the rule makes sense now but the weapon is still pretty much useless the other one is much better

 luke1705 wrote:

Razerous wrote:
Moving on...

Now there has been some more play, how are people finding unguided / no-synapse backfield units? Or if not, what are good options for this, warriors with a VC or BS?

Also how essential are a couple of ripper squads or how mobile do units need to be. With the initial Trygon tunnels, you get excellent deployment but then I feel it all slows down?

It really depends. I've found Genestealers to be exceedingly mobile. Average nearly a 12" move with the advance roll, and they can use charging, piling and consolidating to slingshot even further if the opponent has models in the area. Generally, if they're there waiting for you, you can get there pretty fast. Rippers are super solid now especially since Genestealers really should be Cult stealers IMO. You don't need the Trygon taxi and they're cheaper. So suddenly you need some more Nid troops. There are a lot worse ways to spend 99 points that 3 deep striking objective cappers/linebreaker units.


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 jifel wrote:
I'd personally disagree on that, if you assume that you can apply it to units not models in range as their emails have indicated. I prefer the Mal as a bundle venomthrope/synapse that can't be shot and directly buffs our monsters as well such as the exocrine. With Nids having relatively few transport options we often have more units than the enemy and thus have to weather a turn of shooting. Through lines and premeasuring it isn't that hard to keep one model in 3" I've found.

Well since you can't target models.....yeah you're good. And yes it's a very good unit. Definitely not niche. I don't think it's as auto take as it used to be, but it is very good still.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

trasisi wrote:
On minimum model count for a unit, I'm reading that to say that the power level games must use the unit count given on the data sheet and in points match games you use the unit count that aligns with the unit counts at the point limit section of the book. So venoms and zoans have a minimum model count of 3 (as stated in the points section and data slate) and the hive guard/tyrant guard can be taken in model counts of 3 for power level games (dataslate) and 1-3 for points games (points section of xenos book). is that not how it's being interpreted? sorry if this is off tyranid topic, I'm new and want to play fair.

This was answered in the FAQ. Regardless of which army composition rules you're using, hive guard and tyrant guard are 3-6 unit size.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
I still haven't found a need nor desire to mix any allies in with my nids. The biggest hurdle I have is an abundance of fliers, and I think I can overcome that with more practice and list touch-ups.
Right now I just feel the army is so well rounded and can participate in nearly everything. It's a nice feeling.
All the local tournies disallow forgeworld stuff since they follow the ITC stuff and have a limit of basically one knight class unit, so sadly that means no malenthrope for me, but I run a lot of infantry so maybe ill give venomthropes a chance.

Shame about disallowing Forge World! What do you mean "they follow the ITC stuff" though? The ITC doesn't disallow Forge World.

Would love to hear how you're dealing with flyers though. I think that's definitely one of our weaknesses. But you're right that Nids are very well rounded right now and capable of taking on quite a lot. It is a nice change

It's a temporary measure at the moment until the Forge World stuff gets cleared up and everyone gets used to the rules. It's something ITC is doing and has recommended.

Got my two hierodules today, and i am very happy about that .

Built the scythed hierodule in about 5 hour. Unfortunately the model had some issues as the tail misses one part and one arm was to short =(.


Had to model a bit of the arm with greenstuff so it fits on the model, hope it doesn't look bad. Also the model had lots of holes were the parts get glued together, so i also had to fill them with greenstuff.


Here are some pictures:

Hope it doesn't look that bad =(.

Nice photo of his butt. LOL


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Okay, to not just be silly.
I think it looks amazing, although I do not like the heirodules sooo much. Very good! I am now also tempted to buy one. But I could not decide whether to buy the barbed or the scythed. I think yours looks better.

Thanks mate, the scythed is also good i think.


Ordered both so i can play them together^^.

I've been finding Spore Mines kinda useful for Maelstrom to quickly grab an Objective. If they die, no biggy. Plus they can limit deep strikes or possibly even hold Objectives through numbers if you drop a few. Anyone else tried this?

So since we can agree for the most part that GSC is a part of the tyranid army until we get a codex can I ask why nobody has brought up the ridiculous 3rd GSC Psychic power? If a lot of us are already planning on running 60ish GSC-stealers and you should probably bring the patriarch then why haven't we discussed which powers are most beneficial? I've honestly only been considering GSC so I could get the anti-overwatch power after seeing the effects of my squads get torn up by Redeemer overwatch but holy living hells, str 5 and 5 attacks each hitting on a 2+?!

I was planning on bringing a squad of HF-stealers with brood for the catalyst but between saving 58 points for each grouping of GSC stealers with a patriarch I'm not sure I can validate that anymore... I can't even say that I need them as troops for brigades because that 58 points is nearly two MSUs of Rippers....

Now I'm planning on my entire Elites slot being GSCs, my Hq is looking like a Malanthrope, Flyrant, 2x Patriarchs and maybe a Magus for the overwatch power? I'm really having trouble choosing powers right now, maybe another flyrant instead of the magus and have those two floating around dropping catalyst since it hits all tyranids. The patriarchs could be 1/1 but I'm really loving the GSC Powers...

Can we get a serious discussion on what are the best powers to choose and optimal powers for each of our bug-wizards?

For me it seems Flyrant is an obvious - Catalyst and then preference (leaning towards the horror)
Tyrant I would say the same with exception for a list that wasn't too stealer heavy but still wanted to get into assault... maybe if I was running a carnifex list I'd consider it or Dimas/Heirodules then Onslaught might get chosen but I just can't justify it otherwise with stealers and broods coming with onslaught base.

Broodlords - Catalyst usually but if I'm playing matched I'd actually choose Horror.

Tervigon - Catalyst but in matched I would choose onslaught.

Magus - To me I feel like I'd only field it if I need a cheap HQ with powers. If I'm sitting on some patriarchs already I'd probably equip this guy with the Overwatch power but I could see me using mind control for shenanigans. Do you choose your power as a part of your list building in a tournament or do you choose at the start of the match? Id definitely be using mind control if I new I was facing flyer spam or knight spam.

Patriarchs - I think I have to go Might on this one... if I have a backup magus shutting down overwatch thats a relatively feasible 100 attacks, strength 5 that hit on 2s.... that just... wow.

What do you guys think?? Are you guys avoiding Psyker heavy lists in matched play? Smite just seems like a free shooting phase if you can't use anything else, and its average range for our army regardless.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
I've been finding Spore Mines kinda useful for Maelstrom to quickly grab an Objective. If they die, no biggy. Plus they can limit deep strikes or possibly even hold Objectives through numbers if you drop a few. Anyone else tried this?

Spore Mines can never hold, deny, or do anything to objectives. Its in their rules. :-p

You could sit some mines or a single objective really cheap to slow down deep strike objective thieves... A little area denial. Has anyone done the math on how many mines you would need to deny a certain amount of the board, lets say half of a 4x6?
A mucolid gets you 20 points for a 19" denial radius? Mucolids are the ones on termi bases right? I've been using the Hive crone mines as mucolids because I don't have any bigger ones, just about 40 regular spore mines (mostly the old metal ones).

3 spore mines would be what, three spread out by the two inch margin for 30 points gives you 26" across in denial?

Math being whatever the size of the base is (I'm just using 1" at a guess) plus the average 9" deployment restriction as the radius. I'm gonna go do some measurements actually and see what I come up with

GSC Powers are amazing, but Tyranid powers are great too. Grab somebody (Swarmy) who can cast Catalyst + The Horror, and grab 3 somebodies who can cast all of the GSC powers are you are really cooking with salami

Combining both disciplines has done wonders for me. I always have The Horror and Mass Hypnosis in my toolbox, although I have yet to actually cast the +1 S power. Catalysts uses are also obvious, right now in running 2 Magus, one Broodlord and one Patriarch.

Interesting that you opt to use The Horror over Catalyst in some scenarios...I wonder if the math supports that being better

Simply on the standard that you can only use one catalyst a turn in matched play and that makes the tyrant a much better carrier because its one of our only guys with more than one power. Their mobility makes them the ultimate delivery for the power where as things like assault troops might be better served with the more situational power (Since they'll be in combat those negatives can be used against the now closer enemies) and if you give the broodlord catalyst but its brood of genestealers has already been diminished you're getting less returns in my mind and that broodlord isn't going to race across the board to catalyze your zoanthropes now unless his entire brood was wiped out.


Also screwing around with the math and the way circles are used on a rectangular shape I would say 1 mucolid/spore mine unit per square foot is the easiest if slightly less efficient denial. I'm not a math major or anything so I'm not sure the optimal layout but from just placing models on a board and measuring out threat ranges it seems dead center of each square foot you drop in a mine or unit and effective shut off any deepstrikers until the mines are sniped out. This also guarantees character shielding until the mines are removed and any extra mines can be deployed on empty square footage of the openents side. To cover 1/2 of the board would be the price of a full sized HF Stealer unit. spore mines over mucolid if you're insane enough to clog the field so that flyers are forced to hover but at that rate I think gants are a much better proposition.

 luke1705 wrote:
Interesting that you opt to use The Horror over Catalyst in some scenarios...I wonder if the math supports that being better

Catalyst a friendly unit and your opponent can just choose to shoot everything else. Especially relevant when you have no obvious target and are building for redundancy, e.g. anything running Stealers.

Horror an enemy unit and there shooting suffers no matter where they point it.

Requiet wrote:
You could sit some mines or a single objective really cheap to slow down deep strike objective thieves... A little area denial. Has anyone done the math on how many mines you would need to deny a certain amount of the board, lets say half of a 4x6?
A mucolid gets you 20 points for a 19" denial radius? Mucolids are the ones on termi bases right? I've been using the Hive crone mines as mucolids because I don't have any bigger ones, just about 40 regular spore mines (mostly the old metal ones).

3 spore mines would be what, three spread out by the two inch margin for 30 points gives you 26" across in denial?

Math being whatever the size of the base is (I'm just using 1" at a guess) plus the average 9" deployment restriction as the radius. I'm gonna go do some measurements actually and see what I come up with

It seems like 3 Rippers would do this better for 3 more points. Also, Rippers can hold objectives while spore mines can not. And with 3 wounds each, Rippers are harder to remove... and they are faster. So basically, I don't see any reason to take Spore Mines on their own. At least not for the sole purpose of deep strike denial or objective denial.

Wait @luke1705, where in the FAQ does it state that Hive Guard and Tyrant Guard are 3-6 model units? On the points values page both of those units are listed as 1-3 models per unit and the FAQ doesn't mention that unit at all in the errata. Where are you seeing that? Is my Index out of date? I purchased through iBooks so I REALLY doubt that. I can send a pic of what I'm seeing but I don't see anywhere that those units have been updated from the Index. You seem to be talking about the venomthropes and zoanthropes.

Ok so the list I'm thinking of trying is:

Brigade Tyranids - 12 CP
HQ
Flyrant - Deathspitters/Rending Claws, Adrenal Glands - Catalyst, The Horror
Malanthrope
Magus - Mass Hypnosis
Patriarch - Might from Beyond (To test it out)
Patriarch - Mass Hypnosis

Elites -
3x 20-man Purestrain Genestealers with Scytals

Troops
5x 3-man Ripper Swarms
1x 30-man Termagant Swarm (20x Devilgaunts 10x Fleshborers)

Fast Attack -
3x 1-man Mucolids

Heavy Support-
2x 1-man Biovores
1x Tyrranofex - Rupture cannon


I'm thinking the Malanthrope Babysits the artillery slots, mucolids are more tax but can be used as a distraction or in my experience a forgotten little treat when you have 60 stealers on your front door.

Flyrant will pick out opportune targets when it isn't babysitting the Gants. Rippers come up as needed for objectives or to take an overwatch for someone else.

Stealers and Magus/Patriarchs march right down the center prefering not to split unless necessary. Magus drops the Hypnosis before a charge, one patriarch puts might on the larger squad other patriarch can smite the closest (Gave him Hypnosis but maybe the magus should have mind control? i just like the redundancy of two hypnosis) The tyrant will almost always be using his catalyst on the largest squad or most likely target and the horror on the most dangerous enemy (After I use mind control if I take it ;D)

I may drop the Tyrrano for a Trygon prime but I just have been underwhelmed with the trygons performance and I just got a brand new Tyrrano from a friend. May test him out as an Exocrine as well.

Any thoughts? I want to use so many other units but I'm just having a lot of trouble not using the stealers xD


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Zimko wrote:

Requiet wrote:
You could sit some mines or a single objective really cheap to slow down deep strike objective thieves... A little area denial. Has anyone done the math on how many mines you would need to deny a certain amount of the board, lets say half of a 4x6?
A mucolid gets you 20 points for a 19" denial radius? Mucolids are the ones on termi bases right? I've been using the Hive crone mines as mucolids because I don't have any bigger ones, just about 40 regular spore mines (mostly the old metal ones).

3 spore mines would be what, three spread out by the two inch margin for 30 points gives you 26" across in denial?

Math being whatever the size of the base is (I'm just using 1" at a guess) plus the average 9" deployment restriction as the radius. I'm gonna go do some measurements actually and see what I come up with

It seems like 3 Rippers would do this better for 3 more points. Also, Rippers can hold objectives while spore mines can not. And with 3 wounds each, Rippers are harder to remove... and they are faster. So basically, I don't see any reason to take Spore Mines on their own. At least not for the sole purpose of deep strike denial or objective denial.

Rippers would be a better choice on the objective side for sure, but also cost 165% the price of a single Mucolid so for 12 mucolids cost 240 where as the same number of ripper units clocks in at 396

trasisi wrote:
Wait @luke1705, where in the FAQ does it state that Hive Guard and Tyrant Guard are 3-6 model units? On the points values page both of those units are listed as 1-3 models per unit and the FAQ doesn't mention that unit at all in the errata. Where are you seeing that? Is my Index out of date? I purchased through iBooks so I REALLY doubt that. I can send a pic of what I'm seeing but I don't see anywhere that those units have been updated from the Index. You seem to be talking about the venomthropes and zoanthropes.

https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/40K_8th_ed_Update_Index_Xenos_2_ver_1.0.pdf

Page 2, lower left hand side

They haven't updated the index yet as far as I'm aware. Sometimes you have to re-download it to get it to update IIRC


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 SHUPPET wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
Interesting that you opt to use The Horror over Catalyst in some scenarios...I wonder if the math supports that being better

Catalyst a friendly unit and your opponent can just choose to shoot everything else. Especially relevant when you have no obvious target and are building for redundancy, e.g. anything running Stealers.

Horror an enemy unit and there shooting suffers no matter where they point it.

Fair point. I did a little cursory math and it's pretty comparable in terms of durability increase if only 1 unit shoots at your unit.

Where Catalyst really shines is if a bunch of units are shooting/attacking your 1 catalyst'd unit.

Where The Horror really shines is if you don't really have a single important unit that would get focused down.