GodDamUser wrote: I like the Swarmlords double move.. but that buff only has a 6" range.. which means you need to pod him to really get that on it you wanted it on.. which then just chews up more points... just to get 1 unit into combat
Not really. GS move 8" plus a D6 advance, doubled that is 22" movement on average but potentially up to 28" then an average 7" charge meaning between 29" on the average rolls but a maximum threat distance of 34" on the first turn which covers the majority of the board, no reason to pod Swarmie.
But if the Genestealers do their max move its a good chance they outrun the Swarmlord before he can buff them is my point
But the Swarmlord moves faster than them so please explain how they could possibly out pace him (max move for genestealers is 14" with advance which is only 5" more than swarmys movement)
Guys wich is the meta for tyranids now ? In 7th we play around 5/6/7 flyrant and all was fine, but now how we can hit the 1th place at some tournaments ?
GodDamUser wrote: I like the Swarmlords double move.. but that buff only has a 6" range.. which means you need to pod him to really get that on it you wanted it on.. which then just chews up more points... just to get 1 unit into combat
Not really. GS move 8" plus a D6 advance, doubled that is 22" movement on average but potentially up to 28" then an average 7" charge meaning between 29" on the average rolls but a maximum threat distance of 34" on the first turn which covers the majority of the board, no reason to pod Swarmie.
But if the Genestealers do their max move its a good chance they outrun the Swarmlord before he can buff them is my point
Swarmy has a 9 inch move and can advance as well so that really isn't a thing you need to worry about. He will be within range and if there is a modicum of strategic wit about you when you are doing the movement you will keep some of the units at the back nearer the swarmlord which if you are running a pack of 20 (and you should) then that is going to happen without you even to having think about.
Put swarmlord and 20 stealers on the deployment line and just see if you can EVER do it that the 20 stealers manage to move away from swarmy, impossible because of the volume of models. Even if he rolled a D1 advance and they rolled a D6
Nasty wrote: Guys wich is the meta for tyranids now ? In 7th we play around 5/6/7 flyrant and all was fine, but now how we can hit the 1th place at some tournaments ?
Hard to say. I think it depends on the missions and the amount of terrain. Tyranids could have great board control and win the day even when losing most of it's units in the process. But how are the going to win the kill-point missions? There could be a lot of shooting power armies out there.. It's not hard to keep 'deep strike' units away so the 'right in their face approach' will rather fall on it's face, I believe.
I think some 'over the top' armies that face the right opponent at the right time are likely to win. 3x trygon with 3x 20 genestealers popping out could win the day until the face a big astra militarum gunline. If the don't, then the might win the tournament. The same Astra Militarum gunline could have lost against 4 Imperial knights because the knights got first turn and shot down a few lascannon heavy support platforms and breached the gunline.
SHUPPET wrote: how important is S8 in the new edition? is 2x Exocrine + a bucket of S5 and S6 enough to cover our AT? Or are Hive Guards a must?
Depends on the targets, against T7 or less it is good, but it will be basically useless against Knights or other T8 monsters.
yeah I'm talking in a meta that potentially sees hostile T8 like Knights.
Can we beat that without Shock Cannon HG? Or is HG a borderline must-have for us? If so, how many units?
I assume that Hive Guard ist very good against Knights. Against that a Tyrannofex might be worth it even. But on the other hand you can also kill it with Genestealers and Toxin Sacs combined with a Trygon or just ignore the Knight, if you have massive infantry.
I don't see hive guard as a must take. Especially if you're concerned about knights. They're not going to shy away from a fight and we can take them in close combat. I've watched Swarmlord take 17 wounds off of An'ggrath, who actually has a 4++ always. Most knights have no save in cc (though some of the FW variants have a 5++ or even a 4++, but they'll likely be taking a 6+ unless we hit them with rend -4.
My plan for taking out knights would be:
1) Genestealers. If you have the points, poison is awesome
2) Swarmy
3) Trygon
4) Dimachaeron in a pinch
luke1705 wrote: I don't see hive guard as a must take. Especially if you're concerned about knights. They're not going to shy away from a fight and we can take them in close combat. I've watched Swarmlord take 17 wounds off of An'ggrath, who actually has a 4++ always. Most knights have no save in cc (though some of the FW variants have a 5++ or even a 4++, but they'll likely be taking a 6+ unless we hit them with rend -4.
My plan for taking out knights would be:
1) Genestealers. If you have the points, poison is awesome
2) Swarmy
3) Trygon
4) Dimachaeron in a pinch
A Trygon alone, however, will not do much against a knight. He will cause anything between 1-12 wounds and then die immediately.
Surround your big guys with the small guys, neutering any kind of non ranged offensive from the knigths. Once you have a knight in threat range of 3 big guys, retreat the small guys and charge with all of them at the same time. Hope it doesn't explode.
In general against a knight list you have to dictate the game, he has 4 models in a 2000 point game.Take down 1 or 2 knight during the game and then just win on objectives. Naturally you will lose in a kill point scenario and probably in relic, but you win the other 10 scenarios easily.
It's true that pretty much nothing we have (except Swarmy) could conceivably take down a knight in one swing. The scythed hierodule would be an interesting matchup with that many wounds though. Especially because I feel that we're going to see more shoots knights since their stomps got a lot better, necessitating the chainsword or fist less often. But Spoletta is right. It's a team effort. The trygon only does 6 wounds on average (ironically won't typically hit that number but that's how averages work)
luke1705 wrote: I don't see hive guard as a must take. Especially if you're concerned about knights. They're not going to shy away from a fight and we can take them in close combat. I've watched Swarmlord take 17 wounds off of An'ggrath, who actually has a 4++ always. Most knights have no save in cc (though some of the FW variants have a 5++ or even a 4++, but they'll likely be taking a 6+ unless we hit them with rend -4.
My plan for taking out knights would be:
1) Genestealers. If you have the points, poison is awesome 2) Swarmy 3) Trygon 4) Dimachaeron in a pinch
I respect it, but I'm playing shooty Nids Trygon's and Stealers are just not me.
I like Dima, it's fast and compliments what I'm doing. Might give it a try. Obviously can't solo a Knight, but can potentially put a decent amount of wounds on one. Seems like a good replacement for Raveners and sticks to my preferred type of unit.
No IK list has enough shooting to do that. 30 Gaunts in Synapse will happily absorb all four hypothetical Knights worth of damage each turn, for two turns by themselves. :-p
Its the only reason I don't see IK winning squat as tournaments go until custom Scenarios make the rounds.
Meanwhile, switching to FW news again... I keep re-reading the Stonecrusher, and it feels a bit weird... The Stonecrusher, like the Sororitas Repressor, is almost an objectively better version of our melee Fex.
I've been woefully under-impressed by the Fex so far, even though they're a solid enough choice, but Stonecrushers, helped by One-Eye, and the grossly under-costed Malanthrope, are a very, very scary threat that only makes up 500-ish points of a list, and yet should do considerably more than that to the currently quite mechanized meta.
Niiai wrote: What is the stonecrusher and what is the bakkpark cost?
They're two points less than a current melee-fex with adrenals and toxin-sacs. The Stonecrusher claws, if taken as a pair (and they should), are Sx2, D-D6, and re-rolling to hit and to wound against "Vehicles"
BlackCadian wrote: Is anyone actually going to buy the FW model of a Stonecrusher? They're awful :/
I have a friend converting my scything talons into "maces" right now. :-p The FW ones really are incredibly ugly, and horrifically priced. Considering anyone can make a ball 'o green-stuff and stick it on a cut-off scything talon arm, it might be the easiest home-brew ever.
Niiai wrote: What is the stonecrusher and what is the bakkpark cost?
They're two points less than a current melee-fex with adrenals and toxin-sacs. The Stonecrusher claws, if taken as a pair (and they should), are Sx2, D-D6, and re-rolling to hit and to wound against "Vehicles"
OK thanks. So it has S and damage, but no armour pen? Rhinoes and Marines has 3+ save. While interesting, it's not an auto include.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: No IK list has enough shooting to do that. 30 Gaunts in Synapse will happily absorb all four hypothetical Knights worth of damage each turn, for two turns by themselves. :-p
Its the only reason I don't see IK winning squat as tournaments go until custom Scenarios make the rounds.
Meanwhile, switching to FW news again... I keep re-reading the Stonecrusher, and it feels a bit weird... The Stonecrusher, like the Sororitas Repressor, is almost an objectively better version of our melee Fex.
I've been woefully under-impressed by the Fex so far, even though they're a solid enough choice, but Stonecrushers, helped by One-Eye, and the grossly under-costed Malanthrope, are a very, very scary threat that only makes up 500-ish points of a list, and yet should do considerably more than that to the currently quite mechanized meta.
Niiai wrote: What is the stonecrusher and what is the bakkpark cost?
They're two points less than a current melee-fex with adrenals and toxin-sacs. The Stonecrusher claws, if taken as a pair (and they should), are Sx2, D-D6, and re-rolling to hit and to wound against "Vehicles"
OK thanks. So it has S and damage, but no armour pen? Rhinoes and Marines has 3+ save. While interesting, it's not an auto include.
Niiai wrote: What is the stonecrusher and what is the bakkpark cost?
They're two points less than a current melee-fex with adrenals and toxin-sacs. The Stonecrusher claws, if taken as a pair (and they should), are Sx2, D-D6, and re-rolling to hit and to wound against "Vehicles"
OK thanks. So it has S and damage, but no armour pen? Rhinoes and Marines has 3+ save. While interesting, it's not an auto include.
I would expect the Malanthrope to get a points adjustment in a very quick errata along with all of the other horribly written errors in the book, so don't get too excited. lol
Guys i nedd some help,this weekend i will play against orks ( first match ) and blood angels ( the second ). I nedd some tips for build 2 winning list anti-orks and anti-blood. Someone have some good tactics ?
We are realy competitive so i need 2 win for show them that tyranids are the best ! Hah
Nasty wrote: Guys i nedd some help,this weekend i will play against orks ( first match ) and blood angels ( the second ). I nedd some tips for build 2 winning list anti-orks and anti-blood. Someone have some good tactics ?
We are realy competitive so i need 2 win for show them that tyranids are the best ! Hah
Just take a spearhead detachment w/18 fexs and OOE
Niiai wrote: -3 on the wrecking ball sounds good yeah.
How much is the malenthrope? I remember him giving thing rerolls in 5th. Does he stil do that?
The malanthropes ability is now that if the last model in an enemy unit dies within 1" of it, then your entire army gets to re-roll hits of 1 from then on.
It's not limited to a radius around the malanthrope or anything. I don't think it even matters if the malanthrope dies (might be debatable?). Your entire army just gets buffed for the rest of the game.
benlac wrote: What's the deal with bone sabres? I don't see their points cost anywhere, so ..free?
Yes, all unique characters include all their wargear in their base cost.
This also means that you don't have to pay things like scything talons and crushing claws in the OOE.
benlac wrote: What's the deal with bone sabres? I don't see their points cost anywhere, so ..free?
Yes, all unique characters include all their wargear in their base cost.
This also means that you don't have to pay things like scything talons and crushing claws in the OOE.
Nasty wrote: Guys i nedd some help,this weekend i will play against orks ( first match ) and blood angels ( the second ). I nedd some tips for build 2 winning list anti-orks and anti-blood. Someone have some good tactics ?
We are realy competitive so i need 2 win for show them that tyranids are the best ! Hah
Just take a spearhead detachment w/18 fexs and OOE
I don't know anyone with 18 fexes... but I actually feel like this would be strong lol
how are you guys planning on kitting StoneCrushers??
BlackCadian wrote: Is anyone actually going to buy the FW model of a Stonecrusher? They're awful :/
I actually really like them, and they're awesome in game, so yeah I plan on getting one or two. But that's kind of your personal preference so you do you
how are you guys planning on kitting StoneCrushers??
I think it's worth an extra 5 points to give them a thresher scythe over the bone mace. I also think it's DEFINITELY worth it to give them the flail. Oh you want to bog me down? TRY ME
Of course the crabby claw is a must. So much good for so little points. I wish the regular Carnifex kit had these options so I didn't have to proxy until I get the Stonecrushers. As is, I don't see any reason to do a regular Carnifex.
Razerous wrote: I've bought the digital book (Imperial Armour: Xenos) but I cannot for the life of me read the damn thing.
Using a Nexus 10 tablet. Any suggestions
having a similar issue with a epub. If anyone knows a good epub reader that won't wreck the format and make the damn thing illegible I would really love to know.
Razerous wrote: I've bought the digital book (Imperial Armour: Xenos) but I cannot for the life of me read the damn thing.
Using a Nexus 10 tablet. Any suggestions
having a similar issue with a epub. If anyone knows a good epub reader that won't wreck the format and make the damn thing illegible I would really love to know.
If you use Firefox, I found the Lucifox extension works quite well.
so how do you folks play your venomthropes? I was planning on getting some to put with a blob moving up the table, but their movement stat is comparatively poor, not sure if they typically can keep up with the blob or is that not really an issue?
I've considered replacing my Hive Tyrant with a Swarmlord to boost the Venomthropes movement, but it's way more points that a Hive Tyrant and it would mean cutting out my Mawloc to field it.
The funniest part is, if they rightly increase Malanthrope's cost by 50%, he'll still be almost auto-take. Especially since the ITC/FLG guys confirmed Malanthrope indeed buffs units within 6" meaning with some crafty positioning, he can't be targetted, and buffs a gigantic portion of your list.
benlac wrote: so how do you folks play your venomthropes? I was planning on getting some to put with a blob moving up the table, but their movement stat is comparatively poor, not sure if they typically can keep up with the blob or is that not really an issue?
I've considered replacing my Hive Tyrant with a Swarmlord to boost the Venomthropes movement, but it's way more points that a Hive Tyrant and it would mean cutting out my Mawloc to field it.
A Malanthrope is much better in all regards. If you still want to play them, you should not worry too much about their movement. They can always advance and most of your list will not do this except for GS.
We all know the malant is going to get rised to 200 or so points.
For the venoms you shouldn't worry, they will be dead turn 1 or turn 2. That's the intended role, being a low cost umbrella for enemy ranged attacks and great targets for catalyst.
Spoletta wrote: We all know the malant is going to get rised to 200 or so points.
For the venoms you shouldn't worry, they will be dead turn 1 or turn 2. That's the intended role, being a low cost umbrella for enemy ranged attacks and great targets for catalyst.
There is no way he ends up being 200pts. I can't think of a model that ever had a 250% cost increase. I think 140-160pts would still be fair, and keep him desirable.
Guys I know some of you haven't seen the book yet (I got the digital version and love it) but suffice to say that his points value barely changed at all. If you like his statline and are ok paying a very similar amount of points to last edition, you'll like him now too.
There is a very large discrepancy between his cost and the idea that 1 power level = 20 points
luke1705 wrote: Guys I know some of you haven't seen the book yet (I got the digital version and love it) but suffice to say that his points value barely changed at all. If you like his statline and are ok paying a very similar amount of points to last edition, you'll like him now too.
There is a very large discrepancy between his cost and the idea that 1 power level = 20 points
I own the book, so I have seen his profile/points, and honestly, as good as he is... the pricing isn't outlandish as some make it out to be. We're early days in 8th Ed and people haven't developed the lists, skills, etc... to properly snipe our characters yet. Yes, his buff is tremendous, but requires positioning effort, and outside of said buff, he's not contributing to combat, etc... I can see merit in giving him a 50% price hike in a few months when they do that year-end-review book... but he's not going to suddenly made us the GT winning army of forever.
Also, the PL1 = 20pts thing only makes even vague napkin math when units have options. Clearly Powerlevel can translate a mean unit-cost with semi-decent accuracy, but the minute a model comes with "nothing" war-gear wise, its a total crap-shoot.
It is good, but the aura is substantially less powerful than it was in 7th, especially for our big guys. It used to give them nearly a 2+/3++, and now it's -16% efficiency for the opponent. Overall, still a good unit for sure. Especially for our backline shooty bugs. But tbh I'm not sure it's auto include like some people are making it out to be.
I'm currently trying to figure out the Hierodules point costs.
FW made some pretty dumb mistakes in this book.
Both Hierodules are listed as coming with 'two massive scything talons'.
I'm thinking this is a typo for the Scythed Hierodule, which should probably be given two pairs of massive scything talons.
Regardless, in the points section, 'massive scything talons' have point costs for 'single' and 'pair'.
Given that no tyranid unit ever has been able to take a single scything talon, I assume this is implied to mean 'single pair' and 'double pair'.
Unfortunately this is complicated by the wrecker claws for the stonecrusher carnifex using the exact same 'single' and 'pair' language, and they can come with just a single claw.
I believe the intent is that Barbed Hierodules pay the 'single' cost, and Scythed Hierodules pay the 'pair' cost. Coincidentally, this gives both of them the same final cost.
However the way it is written, everything pays the 'pair' cost, and everything gets the +1 attack for having 'more than one massive scything talons'.
I own the book, so I have seen his profile/points, and honestly, as good as he is... the pricing isn't outlandish as some make it out to be. We're early days in 8th Ed and people haven't developed the lists, skills, etc... to properly snipe our characters yet. Yes, his buff is tremendous, but requires positioning effort, and outside of said buff, he's not contributing to combat, etc... I can see merit in giving him a 50% price hike in a few months when they do that year-end-review book... but he's not going to suddenly made us the GT winning army of forever.
luke1705 wrote:It is good, but the aura is substantially less powerful than it was in 7th, especially for our big guys. It used to give them nearly a 2+/3++, and now it's -16% efficiency for the opponent. Overall, still a good unit for sure. Especially for our backline shooty bugs. But tbh I'm not sure it's auto include like some people are making it out to be.
Yeah from the start I'm not seeing this "Malanthrope is ridiculously undercosted!" hype. He's got more wounds than last edition and he's now harder to target, but weapons now deal more damage, his buff rule is weaker, cover is easier to deal with, and his Synapse isn't as important. He's not looking like he needs a point increase at all, to me, and I think with Broodlords and Old One Eye being a thing that he is far from an autoinclude even for the HQ slot. My opinion
I own the book, so I have seen his profile/points, and honestly, as good as he is... the pricing isn't outlandish as some make it out to be. We're early days in 8th Ed and people haven't developed the lists, skills, etc... to properly snipe our characters yet. Yes, his buff is tremendous, but requires positioning effort, and outside of said buff, he's not contributing to combat, etc... I can see merit in giving him a 50% price hike in a few months when they do that year-end-review book... but he's not going to suddenly made us the GT winning army of forever.
luke1705 wrote:It is good, but the aura is substantially less powerful than it was in 7th, especially for our big guys. It used to give them nearly a 2+/3++, and now it's -16% efficiency for the opponent. Overall, still a good unit for sure. Especially for our backline shooty bugs. But tbh I'm not sure it's auto include like some people are making it out to be.
Yeah from the start I'm not seeing this "Malanthrope is ridiculously undercosted!" hype. He's got more wounds than last edition and he's now harder to target, but weapons now deal more damage, his buff rule is weaker, cover is easier to deal with, and his Synapse isn't as important. He's not looking like he needs a point increase at all, to me, and I think with Broodlords and Old One Eye being a thing that he is far from an autoinclude even for the HQ slot. My opinion
The main thing is that he's a Character. Did your opponents bring Snipers? No? They should never be able to kill it. You know during list viewing if they have the ability to drop in behind him, and can position accordingly. Unless they kill all the stuff preventing you from shooting the Malanthrope, or do something like bring 2-3 Vindicares, it shouldn't die until like T3 at the very earliest.
Gibs55 wrote: Is it possible to play a competative elite Tyranids list that does not involve dozens of models?
Exocrines and Tyrannofexes seem like a good start
I think Dimachaeron's are REALLY good now too
thicken it out with either Dakkafex or Stonecrusher
what will be competitive is to be seen, especially depending on what armies are capable of I doubt anyone is familiar with them all yet especially with new heavy options coming like as we speak
I own the book, so I have seen his profile/points, and honestly, as good as he is... the pricing isn't outlandish as some make it out to be. We're early days in 8th Ed and people haven't developed the lists, skills, etc... to properly snipe our characters yet. Yes, his buff is tremendous, but requires positioning effort, and outside of said buff, he's not contributing to combat, etc... I can see merit in giving him a 50% price hike in a few months when they do that year-end-review book... but he's not going to suddenly made us the GT winning army of forever.
luke1705 wrote:It is good, but the aura is substantially less powerful than it was in 7th, especially for our big guys. It used to give them nearly a 2+/3++, and now it's -16% efficiency for the opponent. Overall, still a good unit for sure. Especially for our backline shooty bugs. But tbh I'm not sure it's auto include like some people are making it out to be.
Yeah from the start I'm not seeing this "Malanthrope is ridiculously undercosted!" hype. He's got more wounds than last edition and he's now harder to target, but weapons now deal more damage, his buff rule is weaker, cover is easier to deal with, and his Synapse isn't as important. He's not looking like he needs a point increase at all, to me, and I think with Broodlords and Old One Eye being a thing that he is far from an autoinclude even for the HQ slot. My opinion
The main thing is that he's a Character. Did your opponents bring Snipers? No? They should never be able to kill it. You know during list viewing if they have the ability to drop in behind him, and can position accordingly. Unless they kill all the stuff preventing you from shooting the Malanthrope, or do something like bring 2-3 Vindicares, it shouldn't die until like T3 at the very earliest.
Yeah I covered that he's a character, the benefit that comes with that is pretty much self explanatory. I also mentioned that this is offset by the fact that what he adds to your army is now significantly less impact in multiple ways, and the nature of our army itself changing also makes him less useful, like he can't keep up with Stealers no matter what you are doing etc and he's slower than last edition. I don't think he's an autoinclude at all even at his leaked listed price.
luke1705 wrote: Guys I know some of you haven't seen the book yet (I got the digital version and love it) but suffice to say that his points value barely changed at all. If you like his statline and are ok paying a very similar amount of points to last edition, you'll like him now too.
There is a very large discrepancy between his cost and the idea that 1 power level = 20 points
I own the book, so I have seen his profile/points, and honestly, as good as he is... the pricing isn't outlandish as some make it out to be. We're early days in 8th Ed and people haven't developed the lists, skills, etc... to properly snipe our characters yet. Yes, his buff is tremendous, but requires positioning effort, and outside of said buff, he's not contributing to combat, etc... I can see merit in giving him a 50% price hike in a few months when they do that year-end-review book... but he's not going to suddenly made us the GT winning army of forever.
Also, the PL1 = 20pts thing only makes even vague napkin math when units have options. Clearly Powerlevel can translate a mean unit-cost with semi-decent accuracy, but the minute a model comes with "nothing" war-gear wise, its a total crap-shoot.
Power level convertion to points is actually extra accurate when you don't have multiple options. Swarmlord converts perfectly, like OOE, Deathleaper and Red Terror. Venoms, zoans and pyrovores all convert perfectly, since they have no options. Inquisition acolytes instead are full of options and fail terribly at that conversion.
Deal with it, the malan point cost is a clear mistake. Expect an errata that brings him in the 185-215 range. Which is fair, any less and it would overshadow venoms.
that would be an odd misprint considering they would have to misprinted multiple numbers for it to be what it currently is. And if it is a mistake, what makes you think the PL isn't a mistake? Unit looks costed just fine to me, any more expensive and I'm going back to Broodlord or Flyrant. I don't expect it to change but I'm fine if it does, I've plenty of options.
However at 200 points it's basically unplayable lol. It is not saving you 200 pts worth of wounds, and outside of those cover saves it's doing very little else, and that function doesn't even work with most the popular builds people are looking at right now. 200 pts is 2/3s the way to a Swarmlord, for a +1 cover only so long as you ball up around it, with its 5" movespeed, in an army where that save is going to be ignored a lot of the time anyway the way the game now works.
I'm still preferring a Winged Hive tyrant over a malanthrope.
The psychic powers are comparable buffs & now with the 2+ WS, a beast!
Just match;
Hive Tyrant Str 6 vs T5 ≥ (Light vehicles, infantry)
Trygon Str 7 vs T6-7 (Rhinos, light vehicles, etc)
Swarmlord Str8 vs bigger things
Finally Str 10 vs the biggest things!
I'd like to do a snooty nids list (exocrine backfield) but also drop a threat or two close range with a pod and/or tunnel. Is there a list I can make around this idea that would be competitive?
I haven't seen pyrovores talked about much in this thread. How are they doing?
Hey guys, just wondering how much anti vehicle you have? I just ran an all vehicle necron list against nids, and he didnt have anywhere near enough weaponry to hurt my stuff.
I had a Vault, Monolith, anni barge, DDA, TA, Pylon, screened by scarabs. Tabled him T4. Had 2 Carnifexes, old one eye, 2 flying hive tyrants, a deathleaper and 3 lictors, a mawlock and trygon prime. I had the firepower to delete 2 a turn on average. Tabled him T4.
Mostly our melee monsters and gun beasts are anti vehicle. Exocrine, carnifex, trygons. swarmlord. stuff like that.
But necron vehicles are protected from most anti vehicle because of quantum shields. The better the weapon is at sheering of clusters of wounds the more likely the quantum shielding will negate it.
I'd like to do a snooty nids list (exocrine backfield) but also drop a threat or two close range with a pod and/or tunnel. Is there a list I can make around this idea that would be competitive?
I haven't seen pyrovores talked about much in this thread. How are they doing?
I'am thinking about an over the top biovore armylist:
You have to make a nice Biovore/pyrovore conversion to pull this off.
In this list the pyrovore are great 'get of my lawn' units. The can do a lot of damage but in any other list the need a tyrannocyte to get close and than it gets expensive. The do a lot of damage but that also means the get killed quick.
Lance845 wrote: Mostly our melee monsters and gun beasts are anti vehicle. Exocrine, carnifex, trygons. swarmlord. stuff like that.
But necron vehicles are protected from most anti vehicle because of quantum shields. The better the weapon is at sheering of clusters of wounds the more likely the quantum shielding will negate it.
Yea he got old one eye and two carnifex'es into combat against my vault and tesseract ark. The quantam shielding didn't help but the high toughness and volume of wounds coupled with regen meant they didn't do much damage at all. Walking them up the board, means they eat turns and turns of lots of damage weapons. Then fall back with fly and open up again.
I fought a couple ghost arks with a couple 30 man bobs of termagants. Managed to nickle and dime them to death with volume of shot because quantum shielding couldn't activate against 1 dmg weapons.
Not sure about the monolith (although that is a different story as it doesn't have quantum shielding) but against the rest, hormagaunts / stealers with toxin seems like a good option for CQC and for shooting an Exocrine shines as the shielding will block almost non of the damage at 2 a piece
SHUPPET wrote: that would be an odd misprint considering they would have to misprinted multiple numbers for it to be what it currently is. And if it is a mistake, what makes you think the PL isn't a mistake? Unit looks costed just fine to me, any more expensive and I'm going back to Broodlord or Flyrant. I don't expect it to change but I'm fine if it does, I've plenty of options.
However at 200 points it's basically unplayable lol. It is not saving you 200 pts worth of wounds, and outside of those cover saves it's doing very little else, and that function doesn't even work with most the popular builds people are looking at right now. 200 pts is 2/3s the way to a Swarmlord, for a +1 cover only so long as you ball up around it, with its 5" movespeed, in an army where that save is going to be ignored a lot of the time anyway the way the game now works.
I doubt either the points or the power level is the misprint. FW has never been one to care if they're stepping on the toes of GW's product line. Stone crushers are clearly superior to regular Carnifexes. Malanthropes are clearly superior to Venomthropes.
I'd like to do a snooty nids list (exocrine backfield) but also drop a threat or two close range with a pod and/or tunnel. Is there a list I can make around this idea that would be competitive?
I haven't seen pyrovores talked about much in this thread. How are they doing?
Biovores and Exocrines are both great backfield shooty units. Outside of that, most of our units have to (or want to) be moving up closer, either because of poor range or because they're actually pretty good in melee. Oh and the harpy has good threat range too.
How do you support your guns in melee? Trygons are a great option because they get your troops where you want them to be (in the enemy's face) and they can only overwatch in retaliation.
You can do the tyrannocyte, but I don't find it as necessary because you have the Trygon for big squads of infantry and the Swarmlord for whatever else. His double move ability is SO STRONG.
How you fill out the rest of your list is up to you. Tyranids are good this edition. You just need to make sure that you can deal with tanks and knights.
Fleshborer Term's actually chip away at T8 quite nicely, doing about the same amount of wound point for point as Toxic Stealers, except being able to apply damage first turn from a Tryon, and never proc'ing the Quantum. They also apply damage well to non-fattys. On the flipside of the coin, these are the only unit mentioned with no AP, so honestly the majority of this will likely bounce off in practice
point for point Toxic Stealers do like the exact same damage almost, but at AP4. However I think they are impacted much more by counter shooting since you have to be right in their grills for a turn before even being able to apply that damage. Quantum Shielding (QS from now) will impact it though and cost you ~20% of that average
Shock Cannon HG do ever so slightly less than this amount, but almost half of them are Mortal Wounds. However, unlike practically everything listed so far, they have basically ONE target profile and are not at all versatile in target selection. Also, T8 MC's don't proc the mortal wounds making them a kind of risky choice. Swapping to impalers halves the amount of wounds.
Dima's do this amount too and put the hurt on everything. AP2/4
Stonecrushers with just one set of claws do the most, like 120% the amount of toxic Stealers guys and at AP3, but QS will wreak havoc on that, and also applying the damage is much harder (melee, no Trygon tunnels, slower movespeed)
regular Genestealers do bout 2/3 as much as Toxic Stealers, but obviously deal with counterfire better, and never proc QS.
Trygons are in this ballpark does slightly more than the vanilla Stealers. Don't even want to try to calculate what QS will do here, rest assured it could end up cutting the damage down MASSIVELY to potentially nothing depending on how the roles came out. Thats a wierd one. Swarmlord is the same, but does slightly less. AP-3
I think that's all Ive seen mentioned. Hope thats all legible
All in all, hardest hitting vs S8 is probably ToxicStealers thanks to AP4, but require melee and melt pretty quickly, regular Stealers probably better choice and still hit hard. Dima looks to be maybe the most balanced choice and is what I'll be using, although he might get unlucky vs Quantum Shielding. .
Automatically Appended Next Post: also Fleshborer Tyrannofex does less than everyone listed and has zero AP. Basically, worse than Termagants.
Exocrine does even less than that, but has AP at least.
Has anyone had the chance to play in a tournament yet? Took first in a 12 man RTT yesterday with a double Exocrine list with the standard Swarmlord/Trygon/Stealer bomb. I'm very happy with how the list is going, and with where we are competitively. Only loss with my current list so far was to a Flier spam DE list. ~15 game or so into 8th edition, a couple of things that I've learned so far (in my personal opinion)
1. Hormagaunts are a trap. I've seen a lot of people raving about Hormagaunts but I just can't get them to effectively work in my lists. Their supposed use is to tie up units in cc but they're so weak in combat now that they're taking casualties without giving any in return, and too many units can leave combat and still shoot. The ones who can't have bubble wrap that Horms can't punch throug because they lack weight of attacks or good wound rolls.
2. Exocrines are my MVP so far. Turn 1/2 I try to eliminate all ranged antitank my opponent has, with help from Stealers, and then the exocrine dominate the midfield. 2 is a must for me, 3 a strong option.
3. Swarmlord/Stealer combo is exactly what we knew. So, so good. What I've seen though is some people trying to solo every unit in range with the Stealers which is kind of silly. Pick one unit you want dead, kill it, tie up more. Saw a buddy of mine charge 3 Daemon princes and split up his attacks evenly. Failed to kill any, then got smacked on. Focus on killing one so you take less swings!
4. Gants with devourers mixed in are our best horde/bubblewrap. I've been using 30 with 15 Devourers. Their cost stayed the same as everything else went up, and they can work over vehicles and the T6/7 range now. Much, much improved! Yesterday they killed 20 Kroot, 3 Grey knight squads, 20 poxwalkers and Typhus. They also never got wiped out either!
Hi all, yesterday i play against a space marines his list was approximatly this :
2 sq of 5 terminator cataphractii
3 sq of scout
1 land rider excelsior
2 stormhawk interceptor
1 stormraven
2 whirlwind
My list was :
1 swarmlord
2 brood lord
3 sq of 17 stealers
1 exocrine
3 sq of 3 hive guard
3 tyrant guard
He go first and litteraly destroy me
I have 2 question :
1 how to play againt that 3 flyers ? Whith them he kill 2 sq of hive guard at the first turn and the rest in the second ..
2 If the terminator is deployed inside the land rider and the stormraven count for the deployment? (To see who starts first)
Lance845 wrote: Mostly our melee monsters and gun beasts are anti vehicle. Exocrine, carnifex, trygons. swarmlord. stuff like that.
But necron vehicles are protected from most anti vehicle because of quantum shields. The better the weapon is at sheering of clusters of wounds the more likely the quantum shielding will negate it.
Against Necron, Genestealers are all the anti-vehicle you need. Since destroying Necron vehicles is about volume of device, the good 'ole Rending Claws, with four attacks per Stealer, hitting on 2's buffed, does plenty.
The Exorcine also does well as its flat 2 damage on a high number of quality shots tends to get by Quantum Shielding just fine.
Nasty wrote: Hi all, yesterday i play against a space marines his list was approximatly this :
2 sq of 5 terminator cataphractii
3 sq of scout
1 land rider excelsior
2 stormhawk interceptor
1 stormraven
2 whirlwind
My list was :
1 swarmlord
2 brood lord
3 sq of 17 stealers
1 exocrine
3 sq of 3 hive guard
3 tyrant guard
He go first and litteraly destroy me
I have 2 question :
1 how to play againt that 3 flyers ? Whith them he kill 2 sq of hive guard at the first turn and the rest in the second ..
2 If the terminator is deployed inside the land rider and the stormraven count for the deployment? (To see who starts first)
Thanx for the help
I think your opponent exactly hit the sweet spot of your list. With a more balanced list, you can go for objectives, while he will struggle holding any of them. But I do not think there is a way to actually destroy all these fliers with Tyranids. Hive Crones are not good enough against stormhawks or storm ravens. You could just go for 3-4 Tyrants with 2x Scything talons. But that itself is very tailored against his list and does not work against a lot of other lists.
I've actually been thinking about fielding a Void Shield Generator for occasions such as this, Knights, and other long range shooting lists.
The Crones can take out fliers well enough, but they have trouble surviving them if they are attacked before they can attack.
I'd drop Genestealers in against the whirlwinds and bring the Swarmlord against the Landraider.
Think you have too many eggs in one basket with so many genestealers though with no real delivery method.
SideshowLucifer wrote: I've actually been thinking about fielding a Void Shield Generator for occasions such as this, Knights, and other long range shooting lists.
The Crones can take out fliers well enough, but they have trouble surviving them if they are attacked before they can attack.
I'd drop Genestealers in against the whirlwinds and bring the Swarmlord against the Landraider.
Think you have too many eggs in one basket with so many genestealers though with no real delivery method.
I did the calculation and do not see, how a Crone should possibly deal with Stormhawks or Stormravens. Sure it will deal something between 2-6 damage, but then it will die. Chances are also not small that the Crone fails to do any damage at all.
luke1705 wrote: I doubt either the points or the power level is the misprint. FW has never been one to care if they're stepping on the toes of GW's product line. Stone crushers are clearly superior to regular Carnifexes. Malanthropes are clearly superior to Venomthropes.
I'd like to do a snooty nids list (exocrine backfield) but also drop a threat or two close range with a pod and/or tunnel. Is there a list I can make around this idea that would be competitive?
I haven't seen pyrovores talked about much in this thread. How are they doing?
Biovores and Exocrines are both great backfield shooty units. Outside of that, most of our units have to (or want to) be moving up closer, either because of poor range or because they're actually pretty good in melee. Oh and the harpy has good threat range too.
How do you support your guns in melee? Trygons are a great option because they get your troops where you want them to be (in the enemy's face) and they can only overwatch in retaliation.
You can do the tyrannocyte, but I don't find it as necessary because you have the Trygon for big squads of infantry and the Swarmlord for whatever else. His double move ability is SO STRONG.
How you fill out the rest of your list is up to you. Tyranids are good this edition. You just need to make sure that you can deal with tanks and knights.
This is really helpful advice thanks! What's your view on 3 pyrovores being dropped in a tyrannocyte? I've not played the new ones.
I saw people weren't too fond of the Tyrannofex, which left me feeling a little skeptical as they can get 48 shots/turn if they don't move (with stinger salvo + flesh borer hive). So, I math-hammered Tyrannofex's vs Exocrines. what I found is below, the final number in the tables being # of casualties/turn, also didn't account for the -1 ap on the stinger salvo so the percentages would be slightly higher than what you see for the Tyrannofex.
Results were fairly obvious: Tyrannofex is better vs space marines, worse against Rhinos, and better if they moved that turn. The Exo has added range, is still decent vs space marines and much better against vehicles if it didn't move.
Overall I think people may be discounting the Tyranno a bit too much. Even unmoved it's still better against standard marines and it has more wounds. Not to mention going up against weaker hordes it would absolutely smash them. I think there's a place for it in lists that want more punch for dealing with space marines or weaker infantry while not wanting to rely on staying put each turn.
This is really helpful advice thanks! What's your view on 3 pyrovores being dropped in a tyrannocyte? I've not played the new ones.
I wrote about this about a page back... They tended to under-perform. They aren't terrible, but they're still three drop-in heavy flamers, essentially. They'll be a good distraction against mediocre opponents, but the T-cyte itself is a better bubble-wrap buster than the Pyrovores, making them kind of blegh.
Maybe you could use Pyrovores against light Airborne Fliers as they auto-hit?
I also think that the Tyrannofex is quite good with the Fleshborer Hive. However, it does not do much more than a lot of Termagants would do. The Exocrine on the other hand offeres a solution to a lot of things, where we are lacking in shooting.
I think I'm going to try an all-stabby 100pp fight tomorrow.
Swarmlord
2 broodlords
2 Canifexeszzeszzzz
All the genestealers and hormagaunts I can fit
Deathleaper
Lictor...just because I had 2 points left over.
No real shooty to speak of, other than maybe bioplasma when the carns get close. Everything else is just going to run like pissed off bugs right at the badguys as fast as possible and get to stabbin.
This is really helpful advice thanks! What's your view on 3 pyrovores being dropped in a tyrannocyte? I've not played the new ones.
I wrote about this about a page back... They tended to under-perform. They aren't terrible, but they're still three drop-in heavy flamers, essentially. They'll be a good distraction against mediocre opponents, but the T-cyte itself is a better bubble-wrap buster than the Pyrovores, making them kind of blegh.
Retrogamer0001 wrote: Anyone have stats on the Barbed Hierodule? Curious to see what horrible things FW did to it.
Basically an imperial knight, minus 2 wounds and the invul against shooting. But they get to charge 3d6 and discount the lowest. Weapons have the same number of shots as before. Profile is similar to the impaler cannon.
Retrogamer0001 wrote: Anyone have stats on the Barbed Hierodule? Curious to see what horrible things FW did to it.
Basically an imperial knight, minus 2 wounds and the invul against shooting. But they get to charge 3d6 and discount the lowest.
Weapons have the same number of shots as before. Profile is similar to the impaler cannon.
Thanks for the reply. I'm curious to see the points and exact stats. Is there someplace I can download the book, or is it only a physical copy?
Retrogamer0001 wrote: Anyone have stats on the Barbed Hierodule? Curious to see what horrible things FW did to it.
Same cost and stats as knight. Except BF 4+, 5A S10.
Scy Tals same as trygon. 2 Bio canons with 6 shots S 8 Ds -2 D3
He can charge 3D6 and discard lowest.
benlac wrote: I saw people weren't too fond of the Tyrannofex, which left me feeling a little skeptical as they can get 48 shots/turn if they don't move (with stinger salvo + flesh borer hive). So, I math-hammered Tyrannofex's vs Exocrines. what I found is below, the final number in the tables being # of casualties/turn, also didn't account for the -1 ap on the stinger salvo so the percentages would be slightly higher than what you see for the Tyrannofex.
Results were fairly obvious: Tyrannofex is better vs space marines, worse against Rhinos, and better if they moved that turn. The Exo has added range, is still decent vs space marines and much better against vehicles if it didn't move.
Overall I think people may be discounting the Tyranno a bit too much. Even unmoved it's still better against standard marines and it has more wounds. Not to mention going up against weaker hordes it would absolutely smash them. I think there's a place for it in lists that want more punch for dealing with space marines or weaker infantry while not wanting to rely on staying put each turn.
The biggest strike against the tyrannofex is its range. I can start shooting the Exocrine double on turn 1, because his range is double the TFex. If the TFex had 36" range fleshborer hives I'd be more open to inclusion. But as it is, he often will have to move to get the range and at that point shoots once.
Jaq Draco lives wrote: Only thing I can see being viable is warriors as they are the cheapest synapse and you really don't want to dump to many points with static units.
I'm with you on this. What are your thoughts on the best way to bubble wrap the exocrines/biovores from deepstrike?
ncshooter426 wrote: I think I'm going to try an all-stabby 100pp fight tomorrow.
Swarmlord
2 broodlords
2 Canifexeszzeszzzz
All the genestealers and hormagaunts I can fit
Deathleaper
Lictor...just because I had 2 points left over.
No real shooty to speak of, other than maybe bioplasma when the carns get close. Everything else is just going to run like pissed off bugs right at the badguys as fast as possible and get to stabbin.
Deathleaper can be countered way too easily... better off taking 2 lictors for the same PL
Arson Fire wrote: I'm currently trying to figure out the Hierodules point costs.
FW made some pretty dumb mistakes in this book.
Both Hierodules are listed as coming with 'two massive scything talons'.
I'm thinking this is a typo for the Scythed Hierodule, which should probably be given two pairs of massive scything talons.
Regardless, in the points section, 'massive scything talons' have point costs for 'single' and 'pair'.
Given that no tyranid unit ever has been able to take a single scything talon, I assume this is implied to mean 'single pair' and 'double pair'.
Unfortunately this is complicated by the wrecker claws for the stonecrusher carnifex using the exact same 'single' and 'pair' language, and they can come with just a single claw.
I believe the intent is that Barbed Hierodules pay the 'single' cost, and Scythed Hierodules pay the 'pair' cost. Coincidentally, this gives both of them the same final cost.
However the way it is written, everything pays the 'pair' cost, and everything gets the +1 attack for having 'more than one massive scything talons'.
There's so many mistakes in this book...
The Harridan suffers the same problem as above.
The Hierophant is BS 3 not 3+. He's the only thing I can see without a + next to his BS. Does this mean he only hits on 3s? 1, 2, 4, 5, 6 are misses?
One of the Tau planes has a Macro weapon. Macro weapons can not be fired by non-titanic units if they moved. Planes have to move. It's worthless......
One of the Tau planes has a Macro weapon. Macro weapons can not be fired by non-titanic units if they moved. Planes have to move. It's worthless......
Geez. There is some bad writing in here and lots of ambiguous rules that are going to need to be FAQ'd, but this one here is just embarrassingly poor writing from a company that boasted how they were going to put an end to all that sort of crap. That one hasn't even been thought about, just "lets whip some cool stuff and keywords on here".
Retrogamer0001 wrote: Anyone have stats on the Barbed Hierodule? Curious to see what horrible things FW did to it.
Basically an imperial knight, minus 2 wounds and the invul against shooting. But they get to charge 3d6 and discount the lowest.
Weapons have the same number of shots as before. Profile is similar to the impaler cannon.
Thanks for the reply. I'm curious to see the points and exact stats. Is there someplace I can download the book, or is it only a physical copy?
SideshowLucifer wrote: I've actually been thinking about fielding a Void Shield Generator for occasions such as this, Knights, and other long range shooting lists.
The Crones can take out fliers well enough, but they have trouble surviving them if they are attacked before they can attack.
I'd drop Genestealers in against the whirlwinds and bring the Swarmlord against the Landraider.
Think you have too many eggs in one basket with so many genestealers though with no real delivery method.
I did the calculation and do not see, how a Crone should possibly deal with Stormhawks or Stormravens. Sure it will deal something between 2-6 damage, but then it will die. Chances are also not small that the Crone fails to do any damage at all.
Stormravens will require a lot to take down, a lot more points than they cost. A pair of Crones do well shooting and then assaulting and are decent against artillery and anything soft that the opponent wants to keep from you. If protected by a void shield generator on turn one, they should get some use at least.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Tyrannafexes have a lot shorter range. That's pretty much my issue with them currently. They will be required to move and shoot too often or get engaged and not shoot at all.
As for bubble wrapping, I started using Termagaunts on the inside ring with Gargoyles on the outer ring. That means when something assaults, any gargoyles I have left can disengage and still shoot and the Tgaunts can shoot and assault if I need to.
It creates a flexible and cheap screen that allows for a lot of low quality shooting.
benlac wrote: I saw people weren't too fond of the Tyrannofex, which left me feeling a little skeptical as they can get 48 shots/turn if they don't move (with stinger salvo + flesh borer hive). So, I math-hammered Tyrannofex's vs Exocrines. what I found is below, the final number in the tables being # of casualties/turn, also didn't account for the -1 ap on the stinger salvo so the percentages would be slightly higher than what you see for the Tyrannofex.
Results were fairly obvious: Tyrannofex is better vs space marines, worse against Rhinos, and better if they moved that turn. The Exo has added range, is still decent vs space marines and much better against vehicles if it didn't move.
Overall I think people may be discounting the Tyranno a bit too much. Even unmoved it's still better against standard marines and it has more wounds. Not to mention going up against weaker hordes it would absolutely smash them. I think there's a place for it in lists that want more punch for dealing with space marines or weaker infantry while not wanting to rely on staying put each turn.
They are 18" range guns. what enemies are going to move within 18" of you so you don't have to move and not charge you to prevent you from shooting at all?
benlac wrote: I saw people weren't too fond of the Tyrannofex, which left me feeling a little skeptical as they can get 48 shots/turn if they don't move (with stinger salvo + flesh borer hive). So, I math-hammered Tyrannofex's vs Exocrines. what I found is below, the final number in the tables being # of casualties/turn, also didn't account for the -1 ap on the stinger salvo so the percentages would be slightly higher than what you see for the Tyrannofex.
Results were fairly obvious: Tyrannofex is better vs space marines, worse against Rhinos, and better if they moved that turn. The Exo has added range, is still decent vs space marines and much better against vehicles if it didn't move.
Overall I think people may be discounting the Tyranno a bit too much. Even unmoved it's still better against standard marines and it has more wounds. Not to mention going up against weaker hordes it would absolutely smash them. I think there's a place for it in lists that want more punch for dealing with space marines or weaker infantry while not wanting to rely on staying put each turn.
They are 18" range guns. what enemies are going to move within 18" of you so you don't have to move and not charge you to prevent you from shooting at all?
I see what you mean, but Exocrines can suffer from similar problems ie. on the receiving end of deep striking units or against a gun line deploying out of your 36''
It would take playing the Tyrannofex carefully to make it effective, probably in a blob and bubble wrapped I imagine. Exocrine is probably the better option most of the time, but Tyrannofex math makes it seem like a decent unit still if played correctly.
I was struggling to decide where to go with my army this edition. Plenty of options seem good. Think I've finally settled on something though.
I have 6 Carnifexes that I'm definitely going to use, I was using Dakkafexes a week ago but Stonecrushers just look so damn versatile in target selection and points efficient, so I think I'm going to go with that.
With 6 Fexes I feel like OOE is a smart investment since he plays at their speed and buffs them all, so theres my HQ
Trygon is so strong right now and doubles as Synapse provider, so I'm going to do that, however with most the army arriving behind them I think I'll just tunnel in TGants who I think are also great coming from a tunnel rather than Genestealers who I think require a bit more of a dedicated build
Dimachaeron is a very nice model and covers a lot of ground, can use it to close out combats or grab stuff, it's also very versatile going to run one of these although two would be nice as well.
The Mathhammer on devilgant bombs is rather underwhelming to me. Then again it's a non trivial amount of dakka and 60 bodies + 2 monsters is fairly substantial disruption. Maybe one squad of gants and one squad of 20 stealers? I would definitely find points for a malanthrope in this list. You've got too many big guys trying to slog it across the table not too.
Dropping down to 10 Devourers per Termagant squad and removing the AG from Primes (which were basically just there because 10pts left over) makes room for a Mope
Not sure that its worth 60 shots of S4 though. It won't be providing bonuses to really anything other than 800 pts worth of Fex, and even that seems awkward as hell, as they each count as their own individual unit now, so literally need to fit 8 Carnifexes within 3" of a Malanthrope at deployment for it to be worth its points, and even before factoring in terrain im not sure that's entirely plausible, and then just for most of them to all outrun after one turn of shooting or NONE AT ALL if i get first.... not convinced Mope is the HQ of choice for anything other than a gunline of Nids
astro_nomicon wrote: The Mathhammer on devilgant bombs is rather underwhelming to me. Then again it's a non trivial amount of dakka and 60 bodies + 2 monsters is fairly substantial disruption. Maybe one squad of gants and one squad of 20 stealers? I would definitely find points for a malanthrope in this list. You've got too many big guys trying to slog it across the table not too.
"Each time the bearer fights, you make a number of hit rolls against the target unit equal to the number of models from that unit within 2'' of the Stone Crusher Carnifex"
It doesn't seem to specify "with this weapon" like other weapons do.
Does this mean we essentially throw out the "A" for the Carnifex? If I'm up against a tank is it only 1 hit? It doesn't even say you have to use the flail, does this mean you can use the Wrecker Claws for the hits you generate?
Zande4 wrote: How do the Flails work for Stonecrushers?
The weapon states:
"Each time the bearer fights, you make a number of hit rolls against the target unit equal to the number of models from that unit within 2'' of the Stone Crusher Carnifex"
It doesn't seem to specify "with this weapon" like other weapons do.
Does this mean we essentially throw out the "A" for the Carnifex? If I'm up against a tank is it only 1 hit? It doesn't even say you have to use the flail, does this mean you can use the Wrecker Claws for the hits you generate?
I guess so. My question with Flail rules, does it overwrite the standard attacks, or does it just give you extra? It doesn't seem to say instead of, it just says "do this" which implies its additive, in which case... when attacking with Wreckers, and taking extra hits RAW, does it add Wrecker hits or Flail hits, or your choice of any weapon you have? Because it doesn't specify that either, just "you make a number of hit rolls".
astro_nomicon wrote: The Mathhammer on devilgant bombs is rather underwhelming to me. Then again it's a non trivial amount of dakka and 60 bodies + 2 monsters is fairly substantial disruption. Maybe one squad of gants and one squad of 20 stealers? I would definitely find points for a malanthrope in this list. You've got too many big guys trying to slog it across the table not too.
Whats up with the math behind Termagants?
With the 20 devilgants + 10 regular gant set up you posted you get 70 S4 shots hitting on 4s.
Against MEQ:
70 × (1/2) to hit × ((1/2) + (1/6)(1/2)) to wound[with reroll 1s] × (1/3) failed saves = 6.81 wounds.
Against GEQ:
70 × (1/2) to hit × ((2/3) + (1/6)(2/3)) to wound[with reroll 1s] × (2/3) failed saves = 18.14 wounds
astro_nomicon wrote: The Mathhammer on devilgant bombs is rather underwhelming to me. Then again it's a non trivial amount of dakka and 60 bodies + 2 monsters is fairly substantial disruption. Maybe one squad of gants and one squad of 20 stealers? I would definitely find points for a malanthrope in this list. You've got too many big guys trying to slog it across the table not too.
Whats up with the math behind Termagants?
With the 20 devilgants + 10 regular gant set up you posted you get 70 S4 shots hitting on 4s.
Against MEQ: 70 × (1/2) to hit × ((1/2) + (1/6)(1/2)) to wound[with reroll 1s] × (1/3) failed saves = 6.81 wounds.
Against GEQ: 70 × (1/2) to hit × ((2/3) + (1/6)(2/3)) to wound[with reroll 1s] × (2/3) failed saves = 18.14 wounds
hmm so like 1/3 to 2/3 as much damage as same points worth of Stealers
but nearly double as many wounds, and an extra turn of damage, that also gets to happen before taking any losses
I don't think its cut and dry, but maybe Stealers might just be flat out better. Is burrowing in less than 35 stealers enough to even have any left over to even threaten a real assault after my opponents first turn of shooting though?
Darksider wrote: So after years, i made my biggest wish for wh40k true. Ordered two hierodules (1 scythed and 1 barbed) .
Hope they will perfom good on the battlefield^^.
Btw are they hard to built, never had something from forgeworld before?
I've got both of them. I recall the barbed hierodules head took a bit of work to fit on. It was bent out of shape, so I had to heat it up and bend it to fix it. Aside from that, they were both good kits. I'd recommend pinning the knee joints. Those two small joints are holding up quite a lot of resin, so you want to make sure they're secure.
General resin advice: FW models are resin, rather than plastic. The material looks similar, but there are a few things to be aware of.
1. The casting process used for resin gives fantastic detail, but also a much higher chance of minor casting issues than plastic. So be prepared to fill in a few small bubbles with greenstuff. Forgeworld stuff is generally not as bad as finecast, but it's still something to be aware of. If you get any really nasty flaws, you can usually get forgeworld to send you a replacement.
2. Resin dust is toxic. So if you do any sanding or filing, do it outdoors. Preferably with a dust mask.
3. The parts often come still coated in a mold release agent, which you need to clean off before doing any assembly or painting. It looks shiny, and feels a bit waxy. Paint will rub off very easily if you don't clean it off. I usually scrub the models with a toothbrush in a warm soapy bucket of water.
4. Resin is quite flexible, and parts often come bent out of shape. You can fix this by heating them up with a hair dryer, or under hot water, then bending them back into shape and then cooling them down in some cold water.
It's a bit more work than plastic, but the detail on the kits is amazing.
Will do my best, that my hierodules will look good^^.
Also very beautiful models^^.
Here is my Tyrannofex i built today, weapons aren't attached yet and i had some problems with his head (unfortunately the head doesn't fit into the torso, i don't know why?). Tried to fix it with some liquid greenstuff, so hope it doesn't look that bad and i won't see the greenstuff after painting it?
Do not worry about the head/neck. The model looks very good, nobody will notice the neckline.
I have no idea what gun is good on him. I think the big barrel gun does him unjustice, unless you are a gambling man. I think both the dakka and flamer is good, although probably a bit expensive. What I like about the flamer though is that it is D6 shots, S7 (in the start) AP2 and do D3 damage. I hope it can take the last life of a rhino if my hiveguards don't manage it. If it stands still it is 2d6 shots. Hopefully it will be able to do something.
PS: Gluing it before painting? That is gonne be a though job.
Yeah also trying to find out which weapon i should give him^^.
And yep i glue all my models before i paint them (but i am more a player and don't paint that often).
My colorsheme will mostly be dark (black and grey or some variants of a dark blue).
If your colourscheme is mostly black I suppose you can easaly get away with it.
If your colourscheme contains bright colours, bright on black, your eye will be drawn to the bright colours. Signar colours on back ridges does wonders.
Many years ago, when the trygon came out, white dwarf had a colour scheme that was dark greys with signal yellow on the backs. It was quite good. Probably easy to paint, easier with a spray gun.
I think almost every list I see posted here has one glaring omission that I can't believe we're not talking about.
Ripper Swarms.
Seriously... Among our auto-includes, I would say any serious competitive need player absolutely must find 33pts in their list for a squad of Rippers. 33pts is functionally nothing at 2000pts, and the versatility of them as an objective stealer is insane. Oh, and if you're playing a Kill Point mission, three small bases are exceedingly easy to hide.
I think almost every list I see posted here has one glaring omission that I can't believe we're not talking about.
Ripper Swarms.
Seriously... Among our auto-includes, I would say any serious competitive need player absolutely must find 33pts in their list for a squad of Rippers. 33pts is functionally nothing at 2000pts, and the versatility of them as an objective stealer is insane. Oh, and if you're playing a Kill Point mission, three small bases are exceedingly easy to hide.
100% agree. Rippers are one of my staple troops choices. Of course, the danger is in forgetting to bring them in on turn 3...
Rippers are great to fill up troops slots for the (battallion?) big detachment.
Slightly off topic, but do you know you can scratch build a Heirophant with a couple of Tervigon/Tyrannofex kits? Saw some guy selling one on ebay for £150... shouldn't be all that much work to pin and green stuff the gaps.
Just a thought, if like me you can't afford FW stuff...
Retrogamer0001 wrote: How are the winged hive tyrants looking? I don't see them in many lists, have they fallen out of favor?
Theyre perfectly viable, like most of our book now. However, I dont think that theyre as good as they used to be and there are better options. My preferred loadout is one set of Deathspitters and rending claws, as seems to be the consensus for a nice cheap all around unit that gives synapse. But for shooting Id rather have Exocrines/Hive Guard/Biovores and for CCId rather have fexes/trygons or hordes.
Retrogamer0001 wrote: How are the winged hive tyrants looking? I don't see them in many lists, have they fallen out of favor?
They're not awful but they're not particularly durable or offensively potent either. While they have great movement it also means they quickly outpace anything that can give them a substantial increase in durability (tyrant guar/malanthrope)
Jaq Draco lives wrote: Only thing I can see being viable is warriors as they are the cheapest synapse and you really don't want to dump to many points with static units.
I'm with you on this. What are your thoughts on the best way to bubble wrap the exocrines/biovores from deepstrike?
If you are running the ideal of 3 - 4 biovores and 1-2 exocrines then that will hopefully be enough by itself, stick the warriors in cover.
Perhaps some spores or ripper swarms as objective holders if you think you are in danger get em spaced out
Retrogamer0001 wrote: How are the winged hive tyrants looking? I don't see them in many lists, have they fallen out of favor?
I've been running them heavily, mostly because wings + deathspitters + scything talons lets me run my 7th ed Flyrants without rebuilding the model.
They are fast, they hit hard, they die quick. 2nd turn charges happen every game, 1st turn if I get lucky.
I like them with Trygons and stealer bombs, because it provides a lot of forward threat first and second turn.
The mobility means I can often use them to snipe characters with smite: positioning then such that the character is the nearest model is often possible, and smite + deathspitters do a good job of softening up a target.
So I'm about to start up a Tyranid army. My FLGS is hosting a friendly 50 Power Level tournament next weekend. I have a few models (some Genestealers, Termagaunts, & Hormagaunts), and will be looking to buy some new models to fill out the small force and hit the PL. I figure this little tournament is a good way to feel out the Tyranids and see how I like them.
If you had to make a 50PL army, what would you fill it with? I haven't picked up the Xenos 2 index, so I haven't really had a chance to look into what units would be worthwhile, so I'm looking for some suggestions from those who have researched the army a bit.
So I'm about to start up a Tyranid army. My FLGS is hosting a friendly 50 Power Level tournament next weekend. I have a few models (some Genestealers, Termagaunts, & Hormagaunts), and will be looking to buy some new models to fill out the small force and hit the PL. I figure this little tournament is a good way to feel out the Tyranids and see how I like them.
If you had to make a 50PL army, what would you fill it with? I haven't picked up the Xenos 2 index, so I haven't really had a chance to look into what units would be worthwhile, so I'm looking for some suggestions from those who have researched the army a bit.
You need some synapse and a bit of everything.
A tervigon, 20/30 dakka gaunts, 3-6 hive guards. Perhaps a group of 3 warriors. And your choise of units.
So I'm about to start up a Tyranid army. My FLGS is hosting a friendly 50 Power Level tournament next weekend. I have a few models (some Genestealers, Termagaunts, & Hormagaunts), and will be looking to buy some new models to fill out the small force and hit the PL. I figure this little tournament is a good way to feel out the Tyranids and see how I like them.
If you had to make a 50PL army, what would you fill it with? I haven't picked up the Xenos 2 index, so I haven't really had a chance to look into what units would be worthwhile, so I'm looking for some suggestions from those who have researched the army a bit.
The Swarmlord is really good. Eventually you are going to want him, but he is expensive (300 points, not sure how many PL). You could run him plus all the little bugs, maybe some Tyrant Guard, hope nobody can handle him.
I would take a pair of Exocrines, a few squads of Warriors, a Prime, and fill out anything I had left with gaunts. Problem for you is that Warriors are kind of meh, so they may be a wasted buy for you.
Warriors provide a cheap source of synapse that can sit in the backfield and keep you Biovores and Exocrines shooting at what you want shot. Good if you run Biovores and Exocrines, maybe good if you run horde gaunts and need more synapse, otherwise not all that useful.
So I'm about to start up a Tyranid army. My FLGS is hosting a friendly 50 Power Level tournament next weekend. I have a few models (some Genestealers, Termagaunts, & Hormagaunts), and will be looking to buy some new models to fill out the small force and hit the PL. I figure this little tournament is a good way to feel out the Tyranids and see how I like them.
If you had to make a 50PL army, what would you fill it with? I haven't picked up the Xenos 2 index, so I haven't really had a chance to look into what units would be worthwhile, so I'm looking for some suggestions from those who have researched the army a bit.
The Swarmlord is really good. Eventually you are going to want him, but he is expensive (300 points, not sure how many PL). You could run him plus all the little bugs, maybe some Tyrant Guard, hope nobody can handle him.
I would take a pair of Exocrines, a few squads of Warriors, a Prime, and fill out anything I had left with gaunts. Problem for you is that Warriors are kind of meh, so they may be a wasted buy for you.
Warriors provide a cheap source of synapse that can sit in the backfield and keep you Biovores and Exocrines shooting at what you want shot. Good if you run Biovores and Exocrines, maybe good if you run horde gaunts and need more synapse, otherwise not all that useful.
Swarmlord is 15 pts, so a bit much in a 50pl game.. but still do able
I personally would go for a couple of Broodlords, 2 units of Genestealers, Warriors, Rippers and Excorine.. but that's just me
I want to make my Old One Eye stand out from my Carnifexes with more to distinguish it than just the face.... anyone got any conversion suggestions? I'm usually quite creative with this stuff but I haven't modelled in quite a while and google has been no help.
I'd like it to be immediately recognisable as a Fex, but still unique in his own right. Where to go from here.... :|
SHUPPET wrote: I want to make my Old One Eye stand out from my Carnifexes with more to distinguish it than just the face.... anyone got any conversion suggestions? I'm usually quite creative with this stuff but I haven't modelled in quite a while and google has been no help.
I'd like it to be immediately recognisable as a Fex, but still unique in his own right. Where to go from here.... :|
Do the face, but position the torso angled upwards so it looks like it's roaring and stands taller than the other Fex's. That's my plan at least.
You could also use the larger Tervigon crushing claws to make OOE more monstrous. I think they're larger, right? Alternatively, use your Claws from the Haruspex kit (cause you made an Exocrine most likely).
SHUPPET wrote: I want to make my Old One Eye stand out from my Carnifexes with more to distinguish it than just the face.... anyone got any conversion suggestions? I'm usually quite creative with this stuff but I haven't modelled in quite a while and google has been no help.
I'd like it to be immediately recognisable as a Fex, but still unique in his own right. Where to go from here.... :|
If price is no issue consider the Wrecker claws.
For mine I clipped the claws so they'd fit in one arm slot. Use the tail add-on and the carapace add-on that comes with it to give him some size.
For the Scything Talons, I wanted them to be a bit stubbier, heavier looking. I used the claws from the Tervigon kit and cut the bottom off so they resembled a talon.
What are people's thoughts on this tactic? Dropping a tervigon in with a tyrannocyte + tunnelling a trygon with 30 Gants (20 devil). It's a nice bomb with synergy thanks to re-roll 1s, gant replenishment and synapse.
C1tric wrote: What are people's thoughts on this tactic? Dropping a tervigon in with a tyrannocyte + tunnelling a trygon with 30 Gants (20 devil). It's a nice bomb with synergy thanks to re-roll 1s, gant replenishment and synapse.
What would they offer in the long-run, doing that, that other units wouldn't do better? The two already work in the back-field for board control, and having a filled deployment zone mucks up your opponents deep-strikes and any turn-one charges.
They wouldn't provide anything offensively dropped on the front-lines.
Don't get caught up with turn 1 assaults either. They can help if your opponent makes a serious error, but it's usually better to wait and let their army split up a bit.
C1tric wrote: What are people's thoughts on this tactic? Dropping a tervigon in with a tyrannocyte + tunnelling a trygon with 30 Gants (20 devil). It's a nice bomb with synergy thanks to re-roll 1s, gant replenishment and synapse.
What would they offer in the long-run, doing that, that other units wouldn't do better? The two already work in the back-field for board control, and having a filled deployment zone mucks up your opponents deep-strikes and any turn-one charges.
They wouldn't provide anything offensively dropped on the front-lines.
It gets you 20 wounds on T4, 26 on T3, 14 on T5-7, and 7 on T8. That assumes your drop goes where you want it, all your fleshborers are in range, and you get all your rerolls, which is reasonable with how much control you have over where you land.
Is that worth it? Maybe not. I would run it differently, with the Tervigon on the table turn one supporting 60-90 gaunts along side at least 2 other Tervigons. The d-gaunts would be for removing specific targets, like missile squads, and would all have devourers.
SHUPPET wrote: I want to make my Old One Eye stand out from my Carnifexes with more to distinguish it than just the face.... anyone got any conversion suggestions? I'm usually quite creative with this stuff but I haven't modelled in quite a while and google has been no help.
I'd like it to be immediately recognisable as a Fex, but still unique in his own right. Where to go from here.... :|
If price is no issue consider the Wrecker claws.
For mine I clipped the claws so they'd fit in one arm slot. Use the tail add-on and the carapace add-on that comes with it to give him some size.
For the Scything Talons, I wanted them to be a bit stubbier, heavier looking. I used the claws from the Tervigon kit and cut the bottom off so they resembled a talon.
thats some good stuff man, and i appreciate the advice
Seeing as I'm using regular Carnifexes as my Stonecrusher, I might use a Stonecrusher as my OOE, giving him the OOE head, with wrecking claws, and maybe give him something special in the midsection like nice talons or even a set of crushers. Thanks for the tips.
BTW is literally the only way to get sets of Wrecking Claws by buying an entire Stonecrusher?? I already have my Fexes, theres no way that I'm rebuying 6 more double priced kits just for an arm weapon lol I think ill just put Crushers on the Fexes and use them as Wrecking claws. Might do something to make them a bit scarier but that's the limit lol.
I'm still not seeing a great way for us to clear out cheap screening units so that our assault units can get in there. Exocrines kill elite infantry. Biovores circumvent invulnerable saves. But what gives us volume of fire at a reasonable distance? I guess maybe dakkafexes but the threat range isn't great. Hive crones are good but they're not doing any work fast.
SHUPPET wrote: I want to make my Old One Eye stand out from my Carnifexes with more to distinguish it than just the face.... anyone got any conversion suggestions? I'm usually quite creative with this stuff but I haven't modelled in quite a while and google has been no help.
I'd like it to be immediately recognisable as a Fex, but still unique in his own right. Where to go from here.... :|
BTW is literally the only way to get sets of Wrecking Claws by buying an entire Stonecrusher?? I already have my Fexes, theres no way that I'm rebuying 6 more double priced kits just for an arm weapon lol I think ill just put Crushers on the Fexes and use them as Wrecking claws. Might do something to make them a bit scarier but that's the limit lol.
Forge World used to sell them separately. You could buy (the Carapace and Tail), (The Carapace, Tail and Flail and 1 Claw,) (The Carapace, Tail and 2 Claws.) They stopped doing that and now only sell entire kits. Try eBay
So in my last few games I have found more success in just plain running my genestealers across the board compared to trying to use a Trygon to get them close..
I am thinking of using the Trygon to deliver Guants close.. or maybe Hormagaunts
luke1705 wrote: I'm still not seeing a great way for us to clear out cheap screening units so that our assault units can get in there. Exocrines kill elite infantry. Biovores circumvent invulnerable saves. But what gives us volume of fire at a reasonable distance? I guess maybe dakkafexes but the threat range isn't great. Hive crones are good but they're not doing any work fast.
I hate to say it, but maybe this is where we can use GSC. We need to have the guard tanks in a separate detachment if I'm reading the rules correctly, but maybe we just grab some neophytes with shotguns. You can use the CP re-roll to mitigate the bad cult ambush results somewhat, and that's a lot of shots clearing out screening units
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually now that I think about it, this opens up Forge world astra militarum units too. A lot of good there
Automatically Appended Next Post: So I'm thinking I grab some FW astra militarum heavy quad launcher batteries. Probably wouldn't even do an HQ - just do an auxiliary detachment. 4d6 shots at str 5...slightly cheaper than a wyvern...less wounds but t7 instead of t6....also 4 + save but doesn't really matter because it's indirect fire. Means I would need to have to have some Genestealer Cult models also....might do another auxiliary detachment and sacrifice a second command point. Perhaps some neophytes wouldn't be an awful screen....even though cheaper models are tempting, as would it be to include a psyker for mass hypnosis or mind control
We can daisy chain like that, right? Having astra militarum in a Tyranids army so long as we have Genestealer Cult?
luke1705 wrote:I'm still not seeing a great way for us to clear out cheap screening units so that our assault units can get in there. Exocrines kill elite infantry. Biovores circumvent invulnerable saves. But what gives us volume of fire at a reasonable distance? I guess maybe dakkafexes but the threat range isn't great. Hive crones are good but they're not doing any work fast.
Dakkafex and Tyrannofex are good for that role I guess, but as mentioned they need to be in close
Honestly, what assault units are we talking about here? The best mob killers seem to be our Genestealers anyway.... or do you mean to wipe a bunch of hostile shooting off the field so that the Stealers don't get lit up by a bunch of horde dice before making assault? In which case (if you bringing in Stealers with Trygons) best option is probably Tyrannofexes in a Pod and/or Dakka Flyrants for HQ I guess to clear down the field.
GodDamUser wrote:So in my last few games I have found more success in just plain running my genestealers across the board compared to trying to use a Trygon to get them close..
I am thinking of using the Trygon to deliver Guants close.. or maybe Hormagaunts
can you elaborate on your experiences a little? why do you feel running is better than Trygon?
GodDamUser wrote:So in my last few games I have found more success in just plain running my genestealers across the board compared to trying to use a Trygon to get them close..
I am thinking of using the Trygon to deliver Guants close.. or maybe Hormagaunts
can you elaborate on your experiences a little? why do you feel running is better than Trygon?
Well I am finding with the speed that Genestealers move at you are making a T2 charge in most cases.. But in my early games I failed charges and just lost bulk Genestealers, other wise walking them forward and then having Trygons pop up with Gaunt spam, then you get some shooting in T1 to weaken the infantry and have a potential screen and/or overwatch soak for the Genestealers, you are also more likely to keep the Broodlord up with them for the extra atk
The thing that I find problematic about saying "I'll just shoot for a turn 2 charge" is that some armies will require you to chew through their bubble wrap for a turn. So suddenly you're not getting there until turn 3, and if you don't go first, that means that you're eating 3 turns of shooting. Didn't work last edition, and I don't expect that it'll work now
luke1705 wrote: The thing that I find problematic about saying "I'll just shoot for a turn 2 charge" is that some armies will require you to chew through their bubble wrap for a turn. So suddenly you're not getting there until turn 3, and if you don't go first, that means that you're eating 3 turns of shooting. Didn't work last edition, and I don't expect that it'll work now
well that's where I am thinking Exocrines and Gaunts can do some chewing of the bubble wraps in the shooting, hopefully leaving the gap for the Genestealers to punch through
luke1705 wrote: I'm still not seeing a great way for us to clear out cheap screening units so that our assault units can get in there. Exocrines kill elite infantry. Biovores circumvent invulnerable saves. But what gives us volume of fire at a reasonable distance? I guess maybe dakkafexes but the threat range isn't great. Hive crones are good but they're not doing any work fast.
This is Tyranids biggest issue right now - 100%
Well I for one plan on trying out full squads of Warriors w/ Deathspitters and Venom Cannons this week. I think with that and a combined Onslaught and an Alpha Warrior would help throw some major firepower down field. should help clear the way for some assaults. I've always been a huge fan of the Warriors since 4th Edition, so I've got 24 warriors and a pair of Alphas to try this out.
For 27 points more than 2 Dakkafexes your going to get 18 S5 shots and potentially 9 S8 shots along with that for a total of 27 shots. The Dakkafexes will only get you 24 S5 shots on the move plus a slightly lower BS skill to hit with. I'd rather keep the Carnies assault based and hit the bigger thing with them.Not to mention your getting some front line synapse with the warriors as well for the rest of your troops.
luke1705 wrote: I'm still not seeing a great way for us to clear out cheap screening units so that our assault units can get in there. Exocrines kill elite infantry. Biovores circumvent invulnerable saves. But what gives us volume of fire at a reasonable distance? I guess maybe dakkafexes but the threat range isn't great. Hive crones are good but they're not doing any work fast.
This is Tyranids biggest issue right now - 100%
Well I for one plan on trying out full squads of Warriors w/ Deathspitters and Venom Cannons this week. I think with that and a combined Onslaught and an Alpha Warrior would help throw some major firepower down field. should help clear the way for some assaults. I've always been a huge fan of the Warriors since 4th Edition, so I've got 24 warriors and a pair of Alphas to try this out.
For 27 points more than 2 Dakkafexes your going to get 18 S5 shots and potentially 9 S8 shots along with that for a total of 27 shots. The Dakkafexes will only get you 24 S5 shots on the move plus a slightly lower BS skill to hit with. I'd rather keep the Carnies assault based and hit the bigger thing with them.Not to mention your getting some front line synapse with the warriors as well for the rest of your troops.
You might wanna check some of your maths here. By "potentially 9" you also mean "potentially 3", you can count that as 6 shots since that's the average, so yeah its still just 24 shots just like the Dakkafex. They are S6 not S5 as well which is relevant against GEQ. Also, that unit of Warriors is 255 points, as opposed to 2x Dakkafexes at 194 points (61 points more expensive), which is over 30% increase of cost. and btw Warriors have the same BS as Carnifexes do unless you bring a Prime, which is even more points. Basically, Dakkafex's will outshoot that Warrior squad and be MUCH more tanky, and are also faster, and thats assuming they were the same points, when the Fexes are actually significantly cheaper.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
What would they offer in the long-run, doing that, that other units wouldn't do better? The two already work in the back-field for board control, and having a filled deployment zone mucks up your opponents deep-strikes and any turn-one charges.
They wouldn't provide anything offensively dropped on the front-lines.
SideshowLucifer wrote:Don't get caught up with turn 1 assaults either. They can help if your opponent makes a serious error, but it's usually better to wait and let their army split up a bit.
babelfish wrote:
It gets you 20 wounds on T4, 26 on T3, 14 on T5-7, and 7 on T8. That assumes your drop goes where you want it, all your fleshborers are in range, and you get all your rerolls, which is reasonable with how much control you have over where you land.
Is that worth it? Maybe not. I would run it differently, with the Tervigon on the table turn one supporting 60-90 gaunts along side at least 2 other Tervigons. The d-gaunts would be for removing specific targets, like missile squads, and would all have devourers.
I just wanted to thank all 3 of you for your really helpful and valid points. I'm a painter and am reading this thread to learn tactics so that I don't buy random models to paint but I actually end up with an army that I can use somewhat competitively.
There's part of me that really wants to have what essentially was 'Living artillery' on the backfield whilst also podding a threat in their face. A good option hasn't necessarily sprung to mind yet. I was conscious that you couldn't move out of a 'cyte or tunnel but you could shoot, 20 supported devilgants seemed good in my head but I totally see where I'm wrong.
It feels like the tyrannocyte is best for dropping a HQ or non-troop choice (else use a trygon). Not quite sure what a good threat might be.
luke1705 wrote: I'm still not seeing a great way for us to clear out cheap screening units so that our assault units can get in there. Exocrines kill elite infantry. Biovores circumvent invulnerable saves. But what gives us volume of fire at a reasonable distance? I guess maybe dakkafexes but the threat range isn't great. Hive crones are good but they're not doing any work fast.
Try a Tyrannocyte with Stranglers? That might do a bunch of damage vs chaff...
luke1705 wrote: I'm still not seeing a great way for us to clear out cheap screening units so that our assault units can get in there. Exocrines kill elite infantry. Biovores circumvent invulnerable saves. But what gives us volume of fire at a reasonable distance? I guess maybe dakkafexes but the threat range isn't great. Hive crones are good but they're not doing any work fast.
30 Gargoyles:
They can possibly shoot and assault T1 and do more damage to GEQ than Hormagants.
20-30 Devilgaunts in Tyrannocyte/Trygon:
Very expensive but they do a lot of damage. Also the Trygon/Tyrannocyte can fire on chaff units.
Dakkafex:
Yeah, because they are meant to be used for that.
Pyrovores:
Possibly not enough shoots, but might be worth a try.
Tyrannofex with fleshborer hive:
See Dakkafex.
9 Raveners with Spinefists:
They have their own delivery method, shoot like crazy and can also charge and kill chaff easily. But they are high points cost. However not much more than a Tyranno and you might not need 9?
luke1705 wrote: I'm still not seeing a great way for us to clear out cheap screening units so that our assault units can get in there. Exocrines kill elite infantry. Biovores circumvent invulnerable saves. But what gives us volume of fire at a reasonable distance? I guess maybe dakkafexes but the threat range isn't great. Hive crones are good but they're not doing any work fast.
This is Tyranids biggest issue right now - 100%
Well I for one plan on trying out full squads of Warriors w/ Deathspitters and Venom Cannons this week. I think with that and a combined Onslaught and an Alpha Warrior would help throw some major firepower down field. should help clear the way for some assaults. I've always been a huge fan of the Warriors since 4th Edition, so I've got 24 warriors and a pair of Alphas to try this out.
For 27 points more than 2 Dakkafexes your going to get 18 S5 shots and potentially 9 S8 shots along with that for a total of 27 shots. The Dakkafexes will only get you 24 S5 shots on the move plus a slightly lower BS skill to hit with. I'd rather keep the Carnies assault based and hit the bigger thing with them.Not to mention your getting some front line synapse with the warriors as well for the rest of your troops.
You might wanna check some of your maths here. By "potentially 9" you also mean "potentially 3", you can count that as 6 shots since that's the average, so yeah its still just 24 shots just like the Dakkafex. They are S6 not S5 as well which is relevant against GEQ. Also, that unit of Warriors is 255 points, as opposed to 2x Dakkafexes at 194 points (61 points more expensive), which is over 30% increase of cost. and btw Warriors have the same BS as Carnifexes do unless you bring a Prime, which is even more points. Basically, Dakkafex's will outshoot that Warrior squad and be MUCH more tanky, and are also faster, and thats assuming they were the same points, when the Fexes are actually significantly cheaper.
But would not the carnifexes give up their mellee attacks? With the warriors and the prime yiu can just grab some bone sworrds among all that. If you wanne min max (some of them will be shot) keep warriors as cheap as possible to just add wounds to the unit. I wish warrior spinefist got a point cost, preferably between 0 and 2.
The carnifexes gets eaten in mellee. Warriors with boneswords do not.
Also venom cannons can punch a dent in rhinos at 36 range. The dakka fex in question can not.
Warriors also have synapse.
While not superior saying one is objectivly better is wrong.
luke1705 wrote: I'm still not seeing a great way for us to clear out cheap screening units so that our assault units can get in there. Exocrines kill elite infantry. Biovores circumvent invulnerable saves. But what gives us volume of fire at a reasonable distance? I guess maybe dakkafexes but the threat range isn't great. Hive crones are good but they're not doing any work fast.
This is Tyranids biggest issue right now - 100%
Well I for one plan on trying out full squads of Warriors w/ Deathspitters and Venom Cannons this week. I think with that and a combined Onslaught and an Alpha Warrior would help throw some major firepower down field. should help clear the way for some assaults. I've always been a huge fan of the Warriors since 4th Edition, so I've got 24 warriors and a pair of Alphas to try this out.
For 27 points more than 2 Dakkafexes your going to get 18 S5 shots and potentially 9 S8 shots along with that for a total of 27 shots. The Dakkafexes will only get you 24 S5 shots on the move plus a slightly lower BS skill to hit with. I'd rather keep the Carnies assault based and hit the bigger thing with them.Not to mention your getting some front line synapse with the warriors as well for the rest of your troops.
You might wanna check some of your maths here. By "potentially 9" you also mean "potentially 3", you can count that as 6 shots since that's the average, so yeah its still just 24 shots just like the Dakkafex. They are S6 not S5 as well which is relevant against GEQ. Also, that unit of Warriors is 255 points, as opposed to 2x Dakkafexes at 194 points (61 points more expensive), which is over 30% increase of cost. and btw Warriors have the same BS as Carnifexes do unless you bring a Prime, which is even more points. Basically, Dakkafex's will outshoot that Warrior squad and be MUCH more tanky, and are also faster, and thats assuming they were the same points, when the Fexes are actually significantly cheaper.
But would not the carnifexes give up their mellee attacks? With the warriors and the prime yiu can just grab some bone sworrds among all that. If you wanne min max (some of them will be shot) keep warriors as cheap as possible to just add wounds to the unit. I wish warrior spinefist got a point cost, preferably between 0 and 2.
The carnifexes gets eaten in mellee. Warriors with boneswords do not.
Also venom cannons can punch a dent in rhinos at 36 range. The dakka fex in question can not.
Warriors also have synapse.
While not superior saying one is objectivly better is wrong.
... well its a good thing that i didn't say anything even resembling that at all, and simply corrected the factually incorrect statements being made, and stated how Dakkafexes would be better at the one role specified, which is clearing cheap screens in shooting to help clear the way for our assault units. Also, those numbers are with keeping those Warriors cheap as possible, and throwing in a Prime +BSwords is doing the opposite . Not sure what you're post adds here tbh
But would not the carnifexes give up their mellee attacks? With the warriors and the prime yiu can just grab some bone sworrds among all that. If you wanne min max (some of them will be shot) keep warriors as cheap as possible to just add wounds to the unit. I wish warrior spinefist got a point cost, preferably between 0 and 2.
The carnifexes gets eaten in mellee. Warriors with boneswords do not.
Also venom cannons can punch a dent in rhinos at 36 range. The dakka fex in question can not.
Warriors also have synapse.
While not superior saying one is objectivly better is wrong.
While Warriors have Synapse, Dakkafex that clear out screening units don't need it. Single models are essentially fearless and if you're clearing out screens Instinctive Behavior is a moot point.
Boneswords are expensive and take away more shoioting. Carnifex's base stat-line is nothing to scoff at in melee. They also retain their charge bonus regardless whether you have CC weapons or not.
Unless you're insinuating a Carnifex with 4 gun arms can't fight in melee? For starters you don't need a melee weapon to fight in melee or 60% of the units in this game couldn't do it. Secondly the Carnifex still has its tail weapon.
Dakkafex are not getting "eaten" in melee by screen units. Anything that does "eat" them is not going to have trouble with Warriors either.
I love Warriors but they're not even remotely filling the same role as Dakkafex
Actually Warriors are a possible replacement for a Dakkafex. However, they get worse when they are suffering wounds and the Fex does not. Also they are more dangerous in melee with plenty of attacks.
I think it depends if you want to have a synapse and mission grabing capabilities or more stamina + a slightly deadlier weapon.
Down with the pitchforks guys. I am merly pointing out that warriors adds more than just dakka. It is not a flat carnifex > warrios. It depends if you only want a dakka fex, or if you are willing to invest a coupel of points more to get a more utilaty unit.
I have said it before but it can bear repeating if I did not make myself clear:
- Throwing 2 pair of bone swords in a group of 9 warriors makes the warriors much better in mellee vs mellee space marines. (Jump marines/bikes) then the same amount of points in dakka carnifexes do. Bone swords are very potent as you jsut remove them last. You also don't loose any shooting unless you mean those points could be reserved for more dakka in another unit.
- The warriors provide synapse. Good to babysitt many of the units in our army. If they are multiple models or have a long range you want to target you need synapse. While the singel model carnifexes do not care that much about synapse, other parts of your army might stil do. (Gaunts, raveners, long ranged guns like hive guards.)
- The big weapons upgrades you get (venom/strangelthorn) have a superior range to the carnifex. Our army stil enjoys the few 36 ranged weapons we can get our hand on.
- If you are only taking less then 9 warriors squads, you can essentialy buy 'bare' warriors as a way to add more wounds to your squad.
The fact that we are discussing warriors vs carnifexes in an indication that the codex currently has a very good internal balance.
So, question as I am about to face someone taking a ton of FW Chaos stuff I am unfamiliar with.
My opponent at 2000pts has, for good or ill opted to spend 800-ish points on a Hellforged Fellblade. The rest of his list is those super points efficient Rapiers and some Horror bubblewrap.
Math says Swarmy, Trygon, and 20 Toxic Sac Stealers easily pulp the Fellblade with plenty of over-kill (only two of those need to make a charge to statistically put down the Fellblade), but is it even worth it? I feel like its the trap/bait and the rest of the list is the actual threat.
Remember that the role in question is clearing screens stopping your assault. If you have to assault to do that, its not doing what we are looking for.
The Dakkafex is literally 150% as effective at shooting vs both GEQ and vs bigger gak
Biggest downside is that it can't come out of a tunnel, and requires a Pod per Fex, aka not worth it at all, so they are walking up the field
When it comes to clearing GEQ nothing is matchin Devilgants tho. Take Synapse from a Trygon Prime if you want Synapse.
Also worth noting, depending on positioning, you don't always need to "clear" the wrap unit, just punch meaningful holes in it. Even mediocre fire like the shots from a Trygon, or more substantially the Barbed Strangers on the Tcyte (which do good work, hitting on 4's versus units of 10+ bodies), will help a lot.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Also worth noting, depending on positioning, you don't always need to "clear" the wrap unit, just punch meaningful holes in it. Even mediocre fire like the shots from a Trygon, or more substantially the Barbed Strangers on the Tcyte (which do good work, hitting on 4's versus units of 10+ bodies), will help a lot.
Is more difficult than you think because the opponent can choose where the casualties come from.
Re: your chaos conundrum, the rapiers are what's going to mess you up. They're going to delete your little dudes so fast. Could be beneficial to leave your genestealers in reserve with the trygon until you've dumpsters the horrors, but they are an annoyingly efficient tarpit.
10/10 would ignore the fellblade and try to kill the rest of his army. No matter what mission you're doing, this is a good plan. Except maybe the relic lmao.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Also worth noting, depending on positioning, you don't always need to "clear" the wrap unit, just punch meaningful holes in it. Even mediocre fire like the shots from a Trygon, or more substantially the Barbed Strangers on the Tcyte (which do good work, hitting on 4's versus units of 10+ bodies), will help a lot.
Is more difficult than you think because the opponent can choose where the casualties come from.
Re: your chaos conundrum, the rapiers are what's going to mess you up. They're going to delete your little dudes so fast. Could be beneficial to leave your genestealers in reserve with the trygon until you've dumpsters the horrors, but they are an annoyingly efficient tarpit.
10/10 would ignore the fellblade and try to kill the rest of his army. No matter what mission you're doing, this is a good plan. Except maybe the relic lmao.
I figured. My hunch was that it was definitely bait. Problem is, this guy is someone who only plays broken, cheese, lists, so he's someone who will show up with 100 Brimstones in his summoning pool, and just drag the crap out all game long.
SHUPPET wrote: Remember that the role in question is clearing screens stopping your assault. If you have to assault to do that, its not doing what we are looking for.
The Dakkafex is literally 150% as effective at shooting vs both GEQ and vs bigger gak
Biggest downside is that it can't come out of a tunnel, and requires a Pod per Fex, aka not worth it at all, so they are walking up the field
When it comes to clearing GEQ nothing is matchin Devilgants tho. Take Synapse from a Trygon Prime if you want Synapse.
The Dakka fex can easily be killed by 2 las cannon shots - while havin trouble obtaining cover + has 0 close combat ability. I dont know why anyone would take 2 guns on a fex now - when you can throw a pair of monster scything talons and make the thing almost twice as deadly. Warriors have their own set of problems - but killing stuff is not their problem - their upgrades make them seriously deadly (like fleshhooks and toxin sacs) Rending claws and toxin sacs is 6 points - every 6 is 2 flat damage to something with -4 AP - THAT HURTS. 3 Wounds is also a sweet spot Good chance to surive through d3 Damage and not even overcharged plasma kills you with a single wound. 4+ save is nice when in cover too. I plan on dropping 9 in a tyrannocyte and buffing them up hard with catalyst and onslaught - it's really just too bad that they worded the tyranocyte the way they did because I'd love to drop a tyranid prime with them as well as a few pyovores and venomthropes.
So I'm about to start up a Tyranid army. My FLGS is hosting a friendly 50 Power Level tournament next weekend. I have a few models (some Genestealers, Termagaunts, & Hormagaunts), and will be looking to buy some new models to fill out the small force and hit the PL. I figure this little tournament is a good way to feel out the Tyranids and see how I like them.
If you had to make a 50PL army, what would you fill it with? I haven't picked up the Xenos 2 index, so I haven't really had a chance to look into what units would be worthwhile, so I'm looking for some suggestions from those who have researched the army a bit.
Avoid the super expensive models. I just won a tourney this weekend with 2 broodlord, 2 genestealer units, venomthrope, biovore, 2 carnifexs (wrecker claw variant) and termagant filler. Just play around with your models and see what you like. But Xenos 2 is mandatory
In the bubblewrap senario can't you just fight fire with fire?
30 hormogaunts with adrenal glands are 180 points. They move 9+1d6 each turn. Once they winn a CC they consoledate 6", meaning the opponent has to keep their troops very seperated so that you don't just consolidate into a new CC.
In a 2000 points game, grab 120 hormogaunts for 720. Grab some synapse. Back it up with more bodies, or long range dakka.
If you spend a turn killing their bubble-wrap with ANYTHING, it means a turn where the targets you wanted to work on can now do whatever they intended to, unmolested. The bubble-wrap works as intended if you waste a turn chopping through it, whether it is with Gaunts, or Stealers, etc...
Though a smart player would keep those Stealers, Swarmy, etc... off the table during the turn you use said Gaunts to do that job.
I just use my gaunts to kill the chaff units. I haven't had any problems against horde armies yet. Just don't go for the turn 1 assault. They will have to split up to do much of anything and that is when you bring your stuff on to take advantage of the chaos.
I think that d-gaunts are our best tool for clearing out chaff and screening units. Stealers and d-gaunts are our most efficient tools for killing GEQ. Stealers want to hit the real target, so gaunts need to do the chaff murdering.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: If you spend a turn killing their bubble-wrap with ANYTHING, it means a turn where the targets you wanted to work on can now do whatever they intended to, unmolested. The bubble-wrap works as intended if you waste a turn chopping through it, whether it is with Gaunts, or Stealers, etc...
Though a smart player would keep those Stealers, Swarmy, etc... off the table during the turn you use said Gaunts to do that job.
That's why I'm thinking we fight fire with fire, sad as it is. Grab your favorite GSC unit (I think I'd go with neophytes in case you don't need a screening unit, since they can be flexible and pew pew in that case) plus some astra militarum wyverns, or, if you prefer FW, for a little cheaper grab the heavy quad launcher battery. It's 90 ish points for 4d6 shots that don't need line of sight at 48". The wyvern gets shred but the quad launchers are str 5....wyvern probably wins out mathhammer wise but I'll likely go with the slightly cheaper quad guns just because I have models to use as gun teams, and I'm not a fan of Tyranid tanks.
The worst part? In my list, the thing I have to replace to make this happen? The exocrine :(((
Automatically Appended Next Post: Posted a prospective tournament list over in the army list section
Can some one help me a little. If I charge with a trygon how many attacks do I get. Do the talons lose attacks because of the tail weapons. Also as the effectively have 5 close combat weapons? I guess just how do they work?
Is there any restriction on the direction you have to retreat from combat?
If not Hierodules make screens a joke.
They can:
Shoot the screen
Assault the screen
Force the screen to pile in
Leave combat and move over the top of the screen models towards your opponents table edge
Assault and shoot something else
Hierodules are allowed to move over enemy non Titanic models when falling back and can shoot + assault even if they fell back in the movement phase.
997Turbo wrote: 99.9% Sure you cannot take IG and Tyranids together.
IG & GSC or Tyranids & GSC....not all three.
I'm looking at the rules for GSC and it says that you literally just ignore the faction of Astra Militarum when you're creating an army that includes AM and GSC models in separate detachments. A little wonky but I think it works
997Turbo wrote: 99.9% Sure you cannot take IG and Tyranids together.
IG & GSC or Tyranids & GSC....not all three.
I'm looking at the rules for GSC and it says that you literally just ignore the faction of Astra Militarum when you're creating an army that includes AM and GSC models in separate detachments. A little wonky but I think it works
That's kinda awesome. I'm strictly bugs here but its sick that we will be able to see a lot of flavor for Nid armies now.
I have been for a long time and I still am for normal games. But guard models (wyverns, heavy quad launchers, etc) really shore up the weakness we have (clearing out chaff units at range beyond 18"). So in a competitive setting, I think that's what I'm going to wind up running
Imagine if the wyvern was T7 but with less wounds, a slightly worse save and slightly cheaper, and with a gun that was slightly higher strength but lost shred. Then you'd have the quad launcher
Automatically Appended Next Post: I mathed it out and the durability is somewhat of a wash (slightly favors the wyvern). Shred is obviously better than a marginal increase in strength, and the only reason it's more expensive is because the wyvern has to take a heavy bolter. The wyvern does degrade (the quad launcher doesn't) but the launcher's crewmen could potentially be sniped out (this chance lessened with multiple launchers). On the whole, I think either choice is pretty solid, but the wyvern is probably slightly better just due to shred. Hate to say it, but I think I need some of them. Really, I'd love to have some sort of cool conversion for use with my Nids
Are spores viable at all in this edition? I like the concept of them & think it might be fun to drop as a distraction right when things are getting crazy, but have 0 experience. Are they fairly useless and thus, not that fun in an actual game? Thoughts?
Math says Devilgants are double as effective per point invested at killing Infantry.
Of course, there is more to it than just paper stats, and Terms can't apply it from 48" range and likely remain safe doing so to let them do it turn after turn, but I also think you guys should consider having a squad or two of Termagants coming out of Trygon tunnels to alpha down some infantry
luke1705 wrote: I have been for a long time and I still am for normal games. But guard models (wyverns, heavy quad launchers, etc) really shore up the weakness we have (clearing out chaff units at range beyond 18"). So in a competitive setting, I think that's what I'm going to wind up running
If you play 2000 pts with a detachment GSC and a detachment AM, will you really have any Tyranids left on the table? You could try to make an examplary list and see if it is at all Tyranid any more.
I've been thinking of a Patrol of GSC of a Magus, and a Throng, and a AM/ Cult of the 4 armed Emp with a couple of Sqds with Missile launchers, a Company Commander to hold the table, and provide long range support, The Nids for the strike force...it seems like a workable build....
What is our solution to Stormravens? We can't assault them with most of our units and they're a devil to shoot down. I'm not talking about just 1 or 2... apparently these things are being spammed and winning tournaments.
luke1705 wrote: I have been for a long time and I still am for normal games. But guard models (wyverns, heavy quad launchers, etc) really shore up the weakness we have (clearing out chaff units at range beyond 18"). So in a competitive setting, I think that's what I'm going to wind up running
If you play 2000 pts with a detachment GSC and a detachment AM, will you really have any Tyranids left on the table? You could try to make an examplary list and see if it is at all Tyranid any more.
^^my most current iteration of a tournament Nids list. Less than 400 points aren't Nids
I'm rolling the dice by taking Auxiliary Support detachments (the -1 CP one) for both AM and GSC, bringing me down to 4 CP. I'm not super sold on the GSC portion of it (20 neophytes) because I'd rather have my screen be natively fearless (gants), cheaper per model (conscripts) or both. However, they do have a lot of shots hitting on 4's, and in games that they don't NEED to be a screen, they can cult ambush and either take on the role of the Rippers or come down turn 1 and lay down supporting fire to clear out my opponent's screen. So I guess that's worth the sacrifice of fearless and 3 or 4 points per wound. Also they actually get a 5+ save, unlike the gants. WHY ARE CONSCRIPTS SO CHEAP
If the Mawloc is in melee, that's because your opponent assaulted him, not the contrary. You never want your mawlock to be in melee, he should be going up and down every other turn,
For 105 points a model that inflicts a good deal of mortal wounds when he arrives, and must be put in melee or he is going to take a lot of mortal wounds home, is a really good bargain.
Zimko wrote: What is our solution to Stormravens? We can't assault them with most of our units and they're a devil to shoot down. I'm not talking about just 1 or 2... apparently these things are being spammed and winning tournaments.
Assault with flyrant - bye bye birdy.
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Niiai wrote: What do people think of mawlocks? 105 points seems like a great buy for the wounds. Can pop up anywhere. That is all good.
But it has.only regular scything tallons. Very hard to kill dedicated mellee units (powerfirsts/rending) with it.
Would.love your thoughts!
Hard for me to justify taking it over a trygon. A trygon brings a whole unit with it. Thats a unit that isn't going to get shotup before it does damage + the trygon which is a beast. most my games are over in 3 turns anyways - units like the trygon need a long time to do their damage.
Zimko wrote: What is our solution to Stormravens? We can't assault them with most of our units and they're a devil to shoot down. I'm not talking about just 1 or 2... apparently these things are being spammed and winning tournaments.
Flyrants, or mass amounts of hive guard and or biovores. I'm running 6 biovores and I hardly blink at flyers anymore. Even when I miss with Biovores, I basicly still hit do to the flyers auto movement and turn arcs.
Zimko wrote: What is our solution to Stormravens? We can't assault them with most of our units and they're a devil to shoot down. I'm not talking about just 1 or 2... apparently these things are being spammed and winning tournaments.
Exocrine should be able to shoot it down in 2 rounds.
You might wanna check some of your maths here. By "potentially 9" you also mean "potentially 3", you can count that as 6 shots since that's the average, so yeah its still just 24 shots just like the Dakkafex. They are S6 not S5 as well which is relevant against GEQ. Also, that unit of Warriors is 255 points, as opposed to 2x Dakkafexes at 194 points (61 points more expensive), which is over 30% increase of cost. and btw Warriors have the same BS as Carnifexes do unless you bring a Prime, which is even more points. Basically, Dakkafex's will outshoot that Warrior squad and be MUCH more tanky, and are also faster, and thats assuming they were the same points, when the Fexes are actually significantly cheaper.
Are you sure that my math is that bad? I believe the VC is S8 and not 6. That's also 36" range which would be twice that of a Deathspitter. I believe 2x Dakkafexes are 228 pts. That's 67 base + 2x 2 Deathspitters 40 + Thresher Scythe 7 = 114pts x 2 = 228.
The whole point is to run warriors with the Alphas making them that more effective if I'm foot slogging across the board. And I don't buy the whole "tanky" argument considering the Carnifex is more likely to draw fire of the higher wounding -AP weapons than the Warriors will. I'll take the 27 wounds at T4 over the 16 at T7. With the added flexibility of the warriors to either ride in a sweet sweet drop pod festooned with guns or buddy up with the Trygon, I think clearing the "bubble wrap" (new term for me) is more of a task for the Warriors than the Carnifex.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fragile wrote: Hive guard have a hard time hitting them, but shock cannons simply own vehicles. Biovores are great all the way around.
The problem is spam. 1 Stormraven is not hard to beat, 4-5 can cause a serious problem.
I think that's true for most, if not all units in 40K.
Like my old Chapter Master used to say, "If you SPAM IT, they will come!"
Hive tyrant spam is no longer viable. Storm raven spam apparently is the new flying circus. If you're smart, you may be able to force it into hover mode, but that's tough with such large move values. It is aided by the fact that they can no longer leave the table and still only have 90 degree turn arcs.
Automatically Appended Next Post: At the end of the day, however, exocrines are still our best shot at beating them. Flyrants could possibly kill them in assault, but it would take at least 2 turns per storm raven. And even then, that's it a likely outcome. Don't depend on flyrants to kill more than 1 flyer
997Turbo wrote: 99.9% Sure you cannot take IG and Tyranids together.
IG & GSC or Tyranids & GSC....not all three.
I'm looking at the rules for GSC and it says that you literally just ignore the faction of Astra Militarum when you're creating an army that includes AM and GSC models in separate detachments. A little wonky but I think it works
People also forget that if you don't mind losing a Command Point, you can even "cheat" the GSC tax by taking one Auxillery Detachment of one Sentinel. You'll lose 1CP, but essentially get carte-blanche to run IG/Nids together.
This weekend at a medium sized tourney i'm running the standard competitive 'Nids with a FW Gunline. I think Quad Mortar Batteries are the secret-sauce to punch through chaff and let 'Nids charge the juiciest targets.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
luke1705 wrote: Imagine if the wyvern was T7 but with less wounds, a slightly worse save and slightly cheaper, and with a gun that was slightly higher strength but lost shred. Then you'd have the quad launcher
Automatically Appended Next Post: I mathed it out and the durability is somewhat of a wash (slightly favors the wyvern). Shred is obviously better than a marginal increase in strength, and the only reason it's more expensive is because the wyvern has to take a heavy bolter. The wyvern does degrade (the quad launcher doesn't) but the launcher's crewmen could potentially be sniped out (this chance lessened with multiple launchers). On the whole, I think either choice is pretty solid, but the wyvern is probably slightly better just due to shred. Hate to say it, but I think I need some of them. Really, I'd love to have some sort of cool conversion for use with my Nids
To be fair, the Quad Mortars are a LOT easier to hide, and can be taken as units to make for fewer drops if you're bidding for first-run, or +1 roll for first-turn.
luke1705 wrote: I have been for a long time and I still am for normal games. But guard models (wyverns, heavy quad launchers, etc) really shore up the weakness we have (clearing out chaff units at range beyond 18"). So in a competitive setting, I think that's what I'm going to wind up running
If you play 2000 pts with a detachment GSC and a detachment AM, will you really have any Tyranids left on the table? You could try to make an examplary list and see if it is at all Tyranid any more.
Min detachment of GSC can be 40-60pts, and then three Quad Mortars and crews are less than 250pts. So yes, you're still 85% 'Nid.
I finally put together my first draft 8th edition list. I wanted to go shooty, and devil Guants have always been my favorite work horse unit. Here it is;
Battalion Detachment
Hq Tervigon w/ st,ss Tervigon w/ st,ss 2 Malanthrope
Troops
30 termaguants w/ 20 dev 30 termaguants w/ 20 dev 3 rippers
3 rippers
Elite
2 hive guard w/ ic 2 hive guard w/ ic 2 hive guard w/ ic Heavy
Exocrene/ pl, bpc
Exocrene/ pl, bpc
3 biovores
Total: 1998
I only have Impaler Cannon Hive guard at the moment, though I am not opposed to swapping in the other variants. The rippers are for burrowing objective grabbing. Malanthropes will split apart to give me max coverage. Let me know what you guys think.
Oh, @Luke, I meant to add... Don't forget in your math that Quad Mortar Batteries count as Infantry and Vehicles, whereas Wyverns are just Vehicles.
That means a 30pt Company Commander can issue re-roll 1's to Mortars versus Wyverns who cannot. This also means you don't lose a 2nd CP as you can take a dirt-cheap HQ and three separate Mortars if you're so inclined.
It really puts the two, mathematically at pretty close to even across the board.
Unless I am mistaken, I do not believe you can run GSC with nids. Your entire army must have at least one faction keyword in common, GSC and Tyranids share none if I remember correctly, since tyranids only faction keyword is tyranids. GSC and AM can be in the same faction, even though they dont share a faction keyword as they have a special rule that allows them to do so...
Did GSC have tyranids faction keyword as well? I dont remember seeing it?
I have a bunch of carnifex models from over the years so I'm thinking of trying something like this:
Spearhead Detachment
HQ Old One Eye
Heavy
Stonecrusher Carnifex with Flail
Stonecrusher Carnifex with Flail
Carnifex with Sything Talon and Crushing Claw
Carnifex with Sything Talon and Crushing Claw
Troop
30 Hormugaunts
30 Hormuguants
Spearhead Detachment
HQ Malentrhope
Malenthrope
Heavy
Carnifex with 2 Scything Talons
Carnifex with 2 Scything Talons
3 Biovores
3 Biovores
3 Biovores
Troops
3 Warriors with 1 venom cannon
3 Warriors with 1 venom cannon
Fortification Network
1 Sporocyst
1 Sporocyst
Should be exactly 2000.
Basic idea is to use the sporocysts to try to mess with the enemies movement along with the biovores while the gaunt squads move in to try to clear up chaff units and generally get in the way so the carnifexs will have time to reach their targets. Warriors sit back and babysit the biovores. 2 Malenthropes should be able to keep the carnifexs and gaunts buffed.
gameandwatch wrote: Unless I am mistaken, I do not believe you can run GSC with nids. Your entire army must have at least one faction keyword in common, GSC and Tyranids share none if I remember correctly, since tyranids only faction keyword is tyranids. GSC and AM can be in the same faction, even though they dont share a faction keyword as they have a special rule that allows them to do so...
Did GSC have tyranids faction keyword as well? I dont remember seeing it?
For the Stone-Crusher Carnifex with Bio-Flail, can you allocate 1 attack to the bio-flail and 3 attacks to the thresher tail? Or does the Bio-flail require that all of the attacks for the model be used up for that ability?
You might wanna check some of your maths here. By "potentially 9" you also mean "potentially 3", you can count that as 6 shots since that's the average, so yeah its still just 24 shots just like the Dakkafex. They are S6 not S5 as well which is relevant against GEQ. Also, that unit of Warriors is 255 points, as opposed to 2x Dakkafexes at 194 points (61 points more expensive), which is over 30% increase of cost. and btw Warriors have the same BS as Carnifexes do unless you bring a Prime, which is even more points. Basically, Dakkafex's will outshoot that Warrior squad and be MUCH more tanky, and are also faster, and thats assuming they were the same points, when the Fexes are actually significantly cheaper.
Are you sure that my math is that bad? I believe the VC is S8 and not 6. That's also 36" range which would be twice that of a Deathspitter. I believe 2x Dakkafexes are 228 pts. That's 67 base + 2x 2 Deathspitters 40 + Thresher Scythe 7 = 114pts x 2 = 228.
The whole point is to run warriors with the Alphas making them that more effective if I'm foot slogging across the board.
Well thats not a Dakkafex, and never has been. A Dakkafex is dual Devourers taken on the cheapest possible platform (historically Carnifex, still the case today) making for the cheapest output of S6 volume of fire in the dex.
Carnifex + 2x Devourers w/Brainleech = 97 pts
Your loadout is needlessly expensive, also no reason to pay for a thresher when they don't have melee kits that just makes him worse, Bone Mace is the best attack he has.
I just took the time to do maths properly and factor in saves, here's what I got:
Dakkafex = 6.6 wounds vs GEQ Warriors = 5.5 wounds vs GEQ
So it's not as bad as I thought thanks to AP, but its also still nowhere near what you said, and much in the advantage for Dakkafexes shooting wise, more than 120% extra. The Venom Cannon's are literally 1.3 wound a turn for all their shooting combined, so yeah I guess thats a little extra damage at 18" further than the rest of your guns, but in reality its making minimal impact against GEQ, and you still need to get in 18" range anyway, and as we both agree the main advantage of this unit is Trygon tunnel so yeah that 36" is barely worth mentioning.
This is before factoring in the extra cost of Boneswords, or TPrime or whatever, when considering their efficiency. You want to add Alpha Warrior to your rolls? Fine, but that's another Dakkafex worth of points and then some. I could buy those Dakkafexes a Malanthrope at those points and then have points left over to upgrade to Deathspitters. All this is relevant to evaluating a unit.
Third_Age_of_Baggz wrote:And I don't buy the whole "tanky" argument considering the Carnifex is more likely to draw fire of the higher wounding -AP weapons than the Warriors will. I'll take the 27 wounds at T4 over the 16 at T7. With the added flexibility of the warriors to either ride in a sweet sweet drop pod festooned with guns or buddy up with the Trygon, I think clearing the "bubble wrap" (new term for me) is more of a task for the Warriors than the Carnifex.
That's not how the game works. The opponent has the same guns available whether you put Carnifex or Warriors against him. If your opponent makes the mistake of firing at the wrong unit, that is not an accurate representation of the units compared tankiness.
The difference against Lascannons and Plasma etc, is like 1 or 2 hits extra from like 60 shots of the gun, in favor of Warriors. So they seem equally likely to draw AT. However, against GEQ and MEQ counter shooting (the key target profile we are looking at here as well) they are less than half as tanky. The only reason not to fire the same AT at Warriors that you would have at Carnifexes, is because the lighter weaponry already decimated them because every shot is two and a half times more effective vs Warriors. And each Carnifex is its own squad, so wasted shots from overkill is a factor for AT weaponry as well.
Basically, compared to that Warrior unit, Dakkafexes are going to survive longer, and are also far more tanky in the fact that you need to kill an entire units worth of wounds before they even start losing any effectiveness at all, Carnifexes have no drop off from taking wounds. Then against the target profile we are talking about here, clearing geq BEFORE assault, Dakkafexes have a higher damage output, and take a ridiculous amount of extra return fire as well.
I'm not saying Warriors are useless, I think they are very viable now that they are basically better Marines in every way and have much better support units this edition with Trygons and TPrimes, and they could honestly even end up being one of the best units in the dex, especially with Prime support! Don't get me wrong here, I think Warriors are great.
I'm just saying that as a support unit to kill GEQ screens for our assault units, a role Luke was talking about our army already struggling with, that taking Warriors with Deathspitters and Venom Cannons, your math that you provided for them as compared to Dakkafex was flat wrong. Dakkafex have the advantage mathematically, but Warriors might save you points elsewhere by providing Synapse and allowing you to sink more free points into improving those numbers, and also have advantages like Trygon drops. However, if we are paying for a Trygon, Devilgants severely outdamage both units, but thats another story.
I'm not against Warriors, I was just trying to check your math, because Dakkafex are better than your numbers were saying.
Spoletta wrote:If the Mawloc is in melee, that's because your opponent assaulted him, not the contrary. You never want your mawlock to be in melee, he should be going up and down every other turn,
For 105 points a model that inflicts a good deal of mortal wounds when he arrives, and must be put in melee or he is going to take a lot of mortal wounds home, is a really good bargain.
Hmmm. Over the course of a 6 turn game, that will average you 12 mortal wounds all up, assuming you hit 2 units a turn, which is probably being generous as its fully in your opponents power to mitigate that. Biovores in comparison, average 18 mortal wounds, and can't be gimped by smart positioning anywhere near as hard. I think we might have to do more than just come up and reburrow every turn to get points worth out of Mawlocs, and that probably involves using the fact that it can appear on the board an inch away from anything and threaten an assault the next turn as one of it's strengths, and the fact that if they die or they focus a large amount of firepower on it and cripple it, it can just pack up and come back somewhere. If this isn't happen, then it's probably not going to be worth its points to be honest. It does have a lot of wounds luckily and is probably the tankiest model in the dex for the points. On that note, what sort of squads do we envision would be it's optimal targets? It's profile is 8 attacks at S6, with hopefully a few rolls for extra damage. It's going to do very well against GEQ in assault at the very least.
Your loadout is needlessly expensive, also no reason to pay for a thresher when they don't have melee kits that just makes him worse, Bone Mace is the best attack he has.
His loadout also is better against most targets and has far better melee.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Oh, @Luke, I meant to add... Don't forget in your math that Quad Mortar Batteries count as Infantry and Vehicles, whereas Wyverns are just Vehicles.
That means a 30pt Company Commander can issue re-roll 1's to Mortars versus Wyverns who cannot. This also means you don't lose a 2nd CP as you can take a dirt-cheap HQ and three separate Mortars if you're so inclined.
It really puts the two, mathematically at pretty close to even across the board.
You are not wrong. Unfortunately, Taurox Primes are even better. A little more expensive but they put out a stupid amount of damage, and they hit on 3's if they can stay stationary (aka after the first turn).
The 30 point dude is really just there to give immunity to morale for my conscripts, who it seems are going to have to be a mainstay screening unit
It's kind of tragic how Nids need the gunline support competitively. I wonder if there is a good counts as or conversion for a Tyranid Taurox prime?
Your loadout is needlessly expensive, also no reason to pay for a thresher when they don't have melee kits that just makes him worse, Bone Mace is the best attack he has.
His loadout also is better against most targets and has far better melee.
And I never said otherwise.
Once again, and I feel like a broken record here, but here goes
We were trying to discuss the best unit for shooting down GEQ screens, BEFORE assault phase, to help provide dedicated screen killing support for our dedicated assault units, to make sure they can get to their preferred targets without being blocked, and not have to end their turn in combat with a screen instead.
As Luke said, this is an aspect lacking in the dex, so much that he has gone through GSC to unlock AM to provide Wyvern support. Some of us don't want to do that, so the optimal unit for this role inside the Nid dex is less obvious.
If it has to wait to the assault phase itself and has no significant speed advantage over the rest of our army, it's not going to do that.
Paying for upgrades that makes it less efficient at the role, is not a valid argument that it does the role worse.
The comparison here was Dakkafexes vs Warriors, and which one does the role better. You can argue that a Carnifex that isn't kitted to be a Dakkafex, is less efficient at a completely different role, but that doesn't change the only statement I'm making, which is that his maths was way off.
And anyway, even WITH Deathspitters and Thresher, it still outshoots the Warriors point for point, so it's kinda irrelevant.
EDIT: There is however an argument to be made for a slow assault army like a bunch of a Stonecrushers, bringing in Warriors ahead of everything else through a tunnel will get there first and can actually make it to assault with the screen before the Fexes need to assault, most likely!
Needs don't NEED the outside gunline support. Nids have a great gunline of their own. We are weak against Stormraven spam and have issues with Dark Eldar Splinter weapon spam, but we can still compete if we play intelligently.
We have access to fortifications, so we can take anti air batteries and void shield generators to help us outlast the fliers.
Spoletta wrote:If the Mawloc is in melee, that's because your opponent assaulted him, not the contrary. You never want your mawlock to be in melee, he should be going up and down every other turn,
For 105 points a model that inflicts a good deal of mortal wounds when he arrives, and must be put in melee or he is going to take a lot of mortal wounds home, is a really good bargain.
Hmmm. Over the course of a 6 turn game, that will average you 12 mortal wounds all up, assuming you hit 2 units a turn, which is probably being generous as its fully in your opponents power to mitigate that. Biovores in comparison, average 18 mortal wounds, and can't be gimped by smart positioning anywhere near as hard. I think we might have to do more than just come up and reburrow every turn to get points worth out of Mawlocs, and that probably involves using the fact that it can appear on the board an inch away from anything and threaten an assault the next turn as one of it's strengths, and the fact that if they die or they focus a large amount of firepower on it and cripple it, it can just pack up and come back somewhere.
If this isn't happen, then it's probably not going to be worth its points to be honest. It does have a lot of wounds luckily and is probably the tankiest model in the dex for the points. On that note, what sort of squads do we envision would be it's optimal targets? It's profile is 8 attacks at S6, with hopefully a few rolls for extra damage. It's going to do very well against GEQ in assault at the very least.
12 mortal wounds at 105 points is quite good actually, and if my math is not off, 3 biovores average 9 mortal wounds over 6 turns. That is assuming that spore mines never make it to the target, which is highly possible since they cannot assault without being removed by overwatch and with split fire the opponent will spare a couple of bolter shots for them.
Honestly, spore mines are one of my favourite models, but i simply don't see how you can deliver them.
Spoletta wrote:If the Mawloc is in melee, that's because your opponent assaulted him, not the contrary. You never want your mawlock to be in melee, he should be going up and down every other turn,
For 105 points a model that inflicts a good deal of mortal wounds when he arrives, and must be put in melee or he is going to take a lot of mortal wounds home, is a really good bargain.
Hmmm. Over the course of a 6 turn game, that will average you 12 mortal wounds all up, assuming you hit 2 units a turn, which is probably being generous as its fully in your opponents power to mitigate that. Biovores in comparison, average 18 mortal wounds, and can't be gimped by smart positioning anywhere near as hard. I think we might have to do more than just come up and reburrow every turn to get points worth out of Mawlocs, and that probably involves using the fact that it can appear on the board an inch away from anything and threaten an assault the next turn as one of it's strengths, and the fact that if they die or they focus a large amount of firepower on it and cripple it, it can just pack up and come back somewhere. If this isn't happen, then it's probably not going to be worth its points to be honest. It does have a lot of wounds luckily and is probably the tankiest model in the dex for the points. On that note, what sort of squads do we envision would be it's optimal targets? It's profile is 8 attacks at S6, with hopefully a few rolls for extra damage. It's going to do very well against GEQ in assault at the very least.
12 mortal wounds at 105 points is quite good actually, and if my math is not off, 3 biovores average 9 mortal wounds over 6 turns. That is assuming that spore mines never make it to the target, which is highly possible since they cannot assault without being removed by overwatch and with split fire the opponent will spare a couple of bolter shots for them.
Honestly, spore mines are one of my favourite models, but i simply don't see how you can deliver them.
my bad, you are right. Did the maths with them doing D3 Mortal Wounds a hit as well, which they don't.
I guess Mawloc's coming in and out might be pretty good compared to Biovores, so long as you can clip multiple units. I guess an advantage it has is adding a solid amount of potential to control objectives as well, and any fire it attracts for whatever reason will be the least efficient target your opponent can shoot at, assuming you have mostly other MC's in your army. I'm sure you could also use it to help bring down the guillotine in combat instead of reburrowing as well, just another option even if not always relevant. Also, it can put wounds on characters!
Also I suspect, that while in theory, people shouldn't shoot at it till last, and it SHOULDN'T clip more than 2 units a turn, I get the feeling that its the kind of unit that will perform even better in practice than it will on paper. People might try kill it because they know if they don't, their elite unit or their HQ is taking a bunch of unavoidable wounds, or maybe both at once if they don't split, or maybe they CAN'T split because it will make their character the closest unit to something and thus targetable, etc. No way of really measuring the impact of that sort of backfield disruption.
I'm really reconsidering him as a unit now
EDIT: they are looking like a decent option for AA as well, in numbers. 5 of them are cheaper than 2x Stormraven.
At the same time though, i rechecked the math on the mawlock and he averages 1,5 wounds, which on 5 turns would make it 9 wounds with 2 available targets.
Yes, we do have that kind of well designed codex. Cheers for us!
Automatically Appended Next Post: And you can really see that it was properly playtested from the fact that they put the restriction in place of "no more than one every six inches". Man, with CP rerolls 3 mawlocks would have been the ultimate snipers.
Spoletta wrote: At the same time though, i rechecked the math on the mawlock and he averages 1,5 wounds, which on 5 turns would make it 9 wounds with 2 available targets.
Yes, we do have that kind of well designed codex. Cheers for us!
Automatically Appended Next Post: And you can really see that it was properly playtested from the fact that they put the restriction in place of "no more than one every six inches". Man, with CP rerolls 3 mawlocks would have been the ultimate snipers.
Oops I see that too. 9 wounds if he's hitting 2 targets a turn. Biovores do that without requiring to hit multiple targets. Mawloc might be kinda gimmicky then in comparison.
But at the same time require synapse and they are more vulnerable in a way. The mawlock you either take away the last wound or he is still at 100% power.
Spoletta wrote: At the same time though, i rechecked the math on the mawlock and he averages 1,5 wounds, which on 5 turns would make it 9 wounds with 2 available targets.
Yes, we do have that kind of well designed codex. Cheers for us!
Automatically Appended Next Post: And you can really see that it was properly playtested from the fact that they put the restriction in place of "no more than one every six inches". Man, with CP rerolls 3 mawlocks would have been the ultimate snipers.
Oops I see that too. 9 wounds if he's hitting 2 targets a turn. Biovores do that without requiring to hit multiple targets. Mawloc might be kinda gimmicky then in comparison.
My 'over the top' biovore army includes 3 mawlocks. Mawlocks not only add a good amount of mortal wounds, but also forces the enemy to shoot them to make sure the cant assault. If the get to assault the get backup from all the sporemines that are floating around. Mawlocks are very cheap in your face units and pretty flexible I think.
Help me out here, I haven't been able to get to a store to purchase the rules yet. If I pop a Mawlock 1" away from a unit, I get to chow down, and put some wounds on. That's nice and all...but doesn't that mean that the unit Cannot Overwatch? I've got a unit within1" don't I?
If that is true taking one Mawloc for each Trygon seems like a reasonable thing to do.
pinecone77 wrote: Help me out here, I haven't been able to get to a store to purchase the rules yet. If I pop a Mawlock 1" away from a unit, I get to chow down, and put some wounds on. That's nice and all...but doesn't that mean that the unit Cannot Overwatch? I've got a unit within1" don't I?
If that is true taking one Mawloc for each Trygon seems like a reasonable thing to do.
Mawloc puts you more than 1" away, and triggers on units within 2".
Could I build a 1000/1500 pts competitive list with these units?
Thank you !
Easily. You get a lot of staples, like the tyrant, the swarmlord, 24 genestealers, 3 carnifex... Ok actually 90% of that list are models you see in a lot of lists.
pinecone77 wrote: Help me out here, I haven't been able to get to a store to purchase the rules yet. If I pop a Mawlock 1" away from a unit, I get to chow down, and put some wounds on. That's nice and all...but doesn't that mean that the unit Cannot Overwatch? I've got a unit within1" don't I?
If that is true taking one Mawloc for each Trygon seems like a reasonable thing to do.
Mawloc puts you more than 1" away, and triggers on units within 2".
Thanks! I guess then, I have to Charge, and take Overwatch...that does sound better ballenced. But at least they have to target a big ugly instead of my delightful Stealers.
3 CC Flyrants is what it takes to kill a Stormraven in a turn if they get in range. However, the 3x Stormhawks DELETE a Flyrant a turn from 48" range, and can apply half that damage from 60", and are only 80% the price, so this might not be ideal.
Exocrine aren't scared of Stormhawks, and does 5 wounds a turn each if it doesn't have to move. This means it takes 3 to delete a Stormraven in a turn. Those Stormravens have a 24" threat range so it's probably gonna happen. However, they also do 11.8 wounds to an Exocrine in a turn, and its a 12 wound model so thats probably gonna wipe one off the field before they can shoot.
120 Devilgants kills a Stormraven in a turn and doesnt care about return fire, but.... lol.
Assault units are borderline useless other than forcing them not to hover, which impacts their mobility a little but isn't going to change games. They can claim objectives... but so can shooty things.
Not saying any of these are great options, just spitballing through what we CAN possibly do. Gonna have to think of options to deal with this because we already knew this was going to be a popular option, but after coming 1st at the first GT its going to be even more popular, and drawing an auto-loss to this list is going to be pretty impractical for Tyranid results if we want to be competitive.
If we can't kill them is there ways to play around it? Dominate objectives with MSU?
Can AM allies through GSC provide reliable AA support?
Stormravens are the bane of tyranids. I understood this when one with Girlyman tabled my 1500 point list in 3 turns pretty much on it's own.
I managed to make it hover and charged it with a fex, but it suffered 8 wounds in overwatch and died.
In general, i feel that hurricane bolters are too cheap.
pinecone77 wrote: Help me out here, I haven't been able to get to a store to purchase the rules yet. If I pop a Mawlock 1" away from a unit, I get to chow down, and put some wounds on. That's nice and all...but doesn't that mean that the unit Cannot Overwatch? I've got a unit within1" don't I?
If that is true taking one Mawloc for each Trygon seems like a reasonable thing to do.
Mawloc puts you more than 1" away, and triggers on units within 2".
Thanks! I guess then, I have to Charge, and take Overwatch...that does sound better ballenced. But at least they have to target a big ugly instead of my delightful Stealers.
Oh, it specifically can't charge the turn it arrives, and also can't Reburrow while within 1".
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoletta wrote: Stormravens are the bane of tyranids. I understood this when one with Girlyman tabled my 1500 point list in 3 turns pretty much on it's own.
I managed to make it hover and charged it with a fex, but it suffered 8 wounds in overwatch and died.
In general, i feel that hurricane bolters are too cheap.
does AM allies have any options? Not totally familiar with that army yet in 8th
AM Anti-Air Support:
There is the Hydra which has a quad AA turret. It is very good against Flyers, but the Hydra itself will die instantly by the fire of a Stormraven or Stormhawk.
You could try to use 9 meotic spores as a unit to charge them Turn 1 with a Swarmlord. They deal 18 Mortal Wounds on a target. However this is just a solutioin against 1 Stormraven.
You can use a lot of Hive Crones, because they have a move of 30. The Problem is that you need 3 Crones to kill one flyer.
Maybe dropping spore mines could be good. You can see where the flyers have to go to avoid getting of the table. If you drop the mines there, you can block the line for them.
I think that the list is unbeatable unless you win over objectives. But the amount of shooting from the fliers will probably table you at some point.
AM allies do help against 1 or 2 flyers, but to take down a list like that you need to have specialized weapons like Tau and Eldars or flying beasts like chaos Demons.
Hurricane bolters should be costed at 12 points to become a choice. For the cost of a devourer they are a no brainer.
Sorry for all, but we can't have Tyranid + CG + AM in the same army
Brood Brother only permit to have CG and AM in the same army. Even if the AM keyword is ignore, it has always the imperium Keyword and AM still don't have the tyranid keyword. So it doesn't work
Now that I think about it, maybe spore mines are really the answer.
You could easily drop 18 spore mines in turn 1 or 2 for 180 point (or more mines). This can be a huge problem for the flyers, when you anticipate where they have to go. They might have to go off the table or cannot land and thus are dead instantly.
Shuppet, or someone else who is good at mathhammer could we do a spreadsheet for the units contesting to shoot up the front line? I think this could help with the argument. That way you can decide if you wanne run straight dakka fexes vs having warriors in the list for a more utilaty unit that does other things as well.
So we.would need averedge wound per point we pay. Then we need to do this vs marines and guards menn.
The contesters as far as I can see are:
Devourer gaunts
Carnifex, 4 x brainleech
Carnifex, 4 x brainleech, plasma
Carnifex, 4 x slimer maggots
Carnifex, 4 x slimer maggots, plasma
Tyranofex, fleshborer hive, standing still (40 shots)
Warriors, devourers, barbed strangler
Warriors, deathspitters, barbed strangler
Warriors, devourers, venom cannon
Warriors, deathspitters, barbed strangler
At what point a tyranid prime with a cannon starts earning its points back.
Are there any others I am missing? Raveners with guns, Hive guards, pyrovores or biovores, are they contesters?
Niiai wrote: Shuppet, or someone else who is good at mathhammer could we do a spreadsheet for the units contesting to shoot up the front line? I think this could help with the argument. That way you can decide if you wanne run straight dakka fexes vs having warriors in the list for a more utilaty unit that does other things as well.
So we.would need averedge wound per point we pay. Then we need to do this vs marines and guards menn.
The contesters as far as I can see are: Devourer gaunts Carnifex, 4 x brainleech Carnifex, 4 x brainleech, plasma Carnifex, 4 x slimer maggots Carnifex, 4 x slimer maggots, plasma Tyranofex, fleshborer hive, standing still (40 shots) Warriors, devourers, barbed strangler Warriors, deathspitters, barbed strangler Warriors, devourers, venom cannon Warriors, deathspitters, barbed strangler At what point a tyranid prime with a cannon starts earning its points back.
Are there any others I am missing? Raveners with guns, Hive guards, pyrovores or biovores, are they contesters?
Raveners are basically going to be slightly more expensive Warriors as far as shooting goes, probably not even worth calculating, you can just look at them and know "ok if I want my Warriors to have Deepstrike its going to be SLIGHTLY less efficient shooting per model than Warriors" Pyrovores I'll check. Biovores not really. I'll include Borer TFex as well. And Wyverns too. If someone can message me the entire rules for Thudd Gun ill do it as well.
I will set-up units of AROUND the same amount of points and do all calcs vs GEQ so we can actually see what it practically looks like
I could do vs MEQ as well, but it will take double as long and I feel like MEQ units aren't going to be screening anything - they will just be the target. I'm not super familiar with the new meta though. Is there any real reason to do calcs vs MEQ here?
Storm ravens are quite expensive - like over 300 points.
Consider this load-out for your Hive Tyrants.
Wings/ Monsterous rending claws/ Heavy venom cannon/Adrenal/Toxin. (210 points only)
Smite it - shoot it - charge it. If you get 4 wounds off it from shooting and smite - you have a good chance to kill it with your charge. 6's put 4 auto wounds through and you are rerolling wounds. D3 on the rest that get through at ap-3 and you are rolling 5's to wound you have a good chance for 2 6's.
A storm raven that is down to bs+5 isn't really a threat to anything anymore anyways.
Xenomancers wrote: Storm ravens are quite expensive - like over 300 points.
Consider this load-out for your Hive Tyrants.
Wings/ Monsterous rending claws/ Heavy venom cannon/Adrenal/Toxin. (210 points only)
Smite it - shoot it - charge it. If you get 4 wounds off it from shooting and smite - you have a good chance to kill it with your charge. 6's put 4 auto wounds through and you are rerolling wounds. D3 on the rest that get through at ap-3 and you are rolling 5's to wound you have a good chance for 2 6's.
A storm raven that is down to bs+5 isn't really a threat to anything anymore anyways.
Consider that the Stormhawks alone kill a Flyrant a turn from 48". You will need multiple Flyrants to get just one into combat. The Hawks will be behind the ravens so you won't be able to smite them.
You wound on a 5+ and are only re-rolling 1s. The 6's from Toxin Sacs aren't mortal either. The Venom Cannon averages around 1 wound every two turns.
Storm Ravens are expensive, but they more than justify the points. They are150% the cost of that Flyrant, but they are MORE than 150% as tanky, and their firepower isn't even comparable.
Trying to fight flyer with flyer is a losing strategy for us I think. They seem to have the best AA I've seen yet as well.
Consider that the Stormhawks alone kill a Flyrant a turn from 48". You will need multiple Flyrants to get just one into combat. The Hawks will be behind the ravens so you won't be able to smite them.
You wound on a 5+ and are only re-rolling 1s. The 6's from Toxin Sacs aren't mortal either. The Venom Cannon averages around 1 wound every two turns.
Storm Ravens are expensive, but they more than justify the points. They are150% the cost of that Flyrant, but they are MORE than 150% as tanky, and their firepower isn't even comparable.
Trying to fight flyer with flyer is a losing strategy for us I think. They seem to have the best AA I've seen yet as well.
Well Rending Claws reroll all to wound rolls, but you are right in spite of that.
Honestly i don't think that there is a solution.
Probably the problem will resolve itself, that list did win that tournament, but that isn't an indication of anything yet.
Native BS4 armies will be able to counter that list quite efficently, we can hope that it's just a thing of the moment and it will be forgotten.
Xenomancers wrote: Storm ravens are quite expensive - like over 300 points.
Consider this load-out for your Hive Tyrants.
Wings/ Monsterous rending claws/ Heavy venom cannon/Adrenal/Toxin. (210 points only)
Smite it - shoot it - charge it. If you get 4 wounds off it from shooting and smite - you have a good chance to kill it with your charge. 6's put 4 auto wounds through and you are rerolling wounds. D3 on the rest that get through at ap-3 and you are rolling 5's to wound you have a good chance for 2 6's.
A storm raven that is down to bs+5 isn't really a threat to anything anymore anyways.
Consider that the Stormhawks alone kill a Flyrant a turn from 48". You will need multiple Flyrants to get just one into combat. The Hawks will be behind the ravens so you won't be able to smite them.
You wound on a 5+ and are only re-rolling 1s. The 6's from Toxin Sacs aren't mortal either. The Venom Cannon averages around 1 wound every two turns.
Storm Ravens are expensive, but they more than justify the points.
Trying to fight flyer with flyer is a losing strategy for us I think.
Its reroll all wounds and ap-6 with 3 auto damage roll (toxin will make this 4 wounds) on 6's ap -3 the rest of the time. Storm raven has a 3+ save with no invo. It's basically never taking saves vs your CC attacks unless you wound with a 5 and he gets a 6+ you still get d3 damage on this also. You hit on 2's and reroll all wounds. This unit is 210 points and almost averages a kill against a model that's over 300 points. Granted he can get the jump on the bird. Are we talking about the same weapon - Heavy Venom Cannon? Assault d3 str9 ap-1 d3d range 36?It averages way more than a single damage over 2 turns.
Consider that the Stormhawks alone kill a Flyrant a turn from 48". You will need multiple Flyrants to get just one into combat. The Hawks will be behind the ravens so you won't be able to smite them.
You wound on a 5+ and are only re-rolling 1s. The 6's from Toxin Sacs aren't mortal either. The Venom Cannon averages around 1 wound every two turns.
Storm Ravens are expensive, but they more than justify the points. They are150% the cost of that Flyrant, but they are MORE than 150% as tanky, and their firepower isn't even comparable.
Trying to fight flyer with flyer is a losing strategy for us I think. They seem to have the best AA I've seen yet as well.
Well Rending Claws reroll all to wound rolls, but you are right in spite of that.
It's not a good matchup - this gives you the best chance though - dropping a few mortal wounds a turn isn't going to work with biovores - exocrines can't move and shoot effectively and will be focused down quick - everything else hits the dang thing on 5's and does pathetic wounds. Devilgaunts (just cause it's our cheapest number of shots and still wounds on 5's) and Hive tyrants are out best AA unfortunately. Smite is also a great tool. Hive Tyrant has it all.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoletta wrote: Honestly i don't think that there is a solution.
Probably the problem will resolve itself, that list did win that tournament, but that isn't an indication of anything yet.
Native BS4 armies will be able to counter that list quite efficently, we can hope that it's just a thing of the moment and it will be forgotten.
My ultra marines list will shoot that army out of the sky in 2 turns. Still though - Nids gonna be struggling to handle even 1-2 storm ravens if you don't bring the right tools.
Xenomancers wrote: Its reroll all wounds and ap-6 with 3 auto damage roll (toxin will make this 4 wounds) on 6's ap -3 the rest of the time. Storm raven has a 3+ save with no invo. It's basically never taking saves vs your CC attacks unless you wound with a 5 and he gets a 6+ you still get d3 damage on this also. You hit on 2's and reroll all wounds. This unit is 210 points and almost averages a kill against a model that's over 300 points. Granted he can get the jump on the bird. Are we talking about the same weapon - Heavy Venom Cannon? Assault d3 str9 ap-1 d3d range 36?It averages way more than a single damage over 2 turns.
Venom Cannon with Flyrant BS 3+, 4+ against Flyers
D3 = average 2 shots a turn. 1 hit at 4+. S9 vs T7 wounds 2 outta 3 times. Then they get to save that at 4+. Then it averages 2 damage per unsaved wound. Thats 0.66 wounds a turn.
And yeah I derped on the rending claws. They grant re-rolls.
With that in mind, at max health, a Flyrant does 9.53 wounds a turn in combat to a Stormraven. Call it 10 with the Venom Cannon, and throw another 2 on for Smite. It's nearly a dead Stormraven.
Its not a bad option honestly. But the Venom Cannon is probably a waste of 30 points. Even the Deathspitter outdamages it slightly. Better off empty handed, 180 pts total is close to the price of his Stormhawks. Smite is nice. The problem is, that they are outranged and outgunned. It can't make it to combat without first taking a turn of shooting at the very least. And it can't live through a turn of shooting. So you have to take multiples. Take 2 and 1 makes it to combat, ALMOST kills a Stormraven, and then dies next turn to the Stormhawks and Stormravens combined. Not practical. So I guess a minimum of 3? 1 dies 2 make it to combat and cripple two Stormhawks, 1 dies the next turn. then ONE hopefully gets to charge a Stormhawk, blow it up, then with 2 Stormhawks crippled and half his AA gone, the game starts tilting your way?
EDIT: its lame that we cant put Flyrants in an airwing :(
SideshowLucifer wrote: Needs don't NEED the outside gunline support. Nids have a great gunline of their own. We are weak against Stormraven spam and have issues with Dark Eldar Splinter weapon spam, but we can still compete if we play intelligently.
We have access to fortifications, so we can take anti air batteries and void shield generators to help us outlast the fliers.
Would love to hear which units you're referring to, specifically for killing horde units at greater than 24" range on turn 1
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Karasou wrote: Sorry for all, but we can't have Tyranid + CG + AM in the same army
Brood Brother only permit to have CG and AM in the same army. Even if the AM keyword is ignore, it has always the imperium Keyword and AM still don't have the tyranid keyword. So it doesn't work
It doesn't matter. As long as you have the same amount of GSC and AM detachments, the rules say "simply ignore the AM units when choosing your army's faction". So their faction is imperium. Yes. But we ignore ALL of their faction keywords. It does work
Xenomancers wrote: Its reroll all wounds and ap-6 with 3 auto damage roll (toxin will make this 4 wounds) on 6's ap -3 the rest of the time. Storm raven has a 3+ save with no invo. It's basically never taking saves vs your CC attacks unless you wound with a 5 and he gets a 6+ you still get d3 damage on this also. You hit on 2's and reroll all wounds. This unit is 210 points and almost averages a kill against a model that's over 300 points. Granted he can get the jump on the bird. Are we talking about the same weapon - Heavy Venom Cannon? Assault d3 str9 ap-1 d3d range 36?It averages way more than a single damage over 2 turns.
Venom Cannon with Flyrant BS 3+, 4+ against Flyers
D3 = average 2 shots a turn. 1 hit at 4+. S9 vs T7 wounds 2 outta 3 times. Then they get to save that at 4+. Then it averages 2 damage per unsaved wound. Thats 0.66 wounds a turn.
And yeah I derped on the rending claws. They grant re-rolls.
With that in mind, at max health, a Flyrant does 9.53 wounds a turn in combat to a Stormraven. Call it 10 with the Venom Cannon, and throw another 2 on for Smite. It's nearly a dead Stormraven.
Its not a bad option honestly. But the Venom Cannon is probably a waste of 30 points. Even the Deathspitter outdamages it slightly. Better off empty handed, 180 pts total is close to the price of his Stormhawks.
Smite is nice. The problem is, that they are outranged and outgunned. It can't make it to combat without first taking a turn of shooting at the very least. And it can't live through a turn of shooting. So you have to take multiples.
Take 2 and 1 makes it to combat, ALMOST kills a Stormraven, and then dies next turn to the Stormhawks and Stormravens combined. Not practical.
So I guess a minimum of 3? 1 dies 2 make it to combat and cripple two Stormhawks, 1 dies the next turn. then ONE hopefully gets to charge a Stormhawk, blow it up, then with 2 Stormhawks crippled and half his AA gone, the game starts tilting your way?
I was thinking 3 myself - I don't have a 4th but a 4th even seems practical. If they want to spam flyers we can do the same thing. can easily fit 8 hive tyrants into an army. The smites really start stacking up with 8 of them.
2 Supreme commands 3 hives and a lictor, 1 battalion 3 units of termagant and 2 more tyrants. fight fire with fire!
Xenomancers wrote: I was thinking 3 myself - I don't have a 4th but a 4th even seems practical. If they want to spam flyers we can do the same thing. can easily fit 8 hive tyrants into an army. The smites really start stacking up with 8 of them. 2 Supreme commands 3 hives and a lictor, 1 battalion 3 units of termagant and 2 more tyrants. fight fire with fire!
I own 3 as well - might pick up a 4th, might not be necessary, but I'll see in time. I like that they aren't just dedicated AA since they should be able to apply that to any tank
Xenomancers wrote: Its reroll all wounds and ap-6 with 3 auto damage roll (toxin will make this 4 wounds) on 6's ap -3 the rest of the time. Storm raven has a 3+ save with no invo. It's basically never taking saves vs your CC attacks unless you wound with a 5 and he gets a 6+ you still get d3 damage on this also. You hit on 2's and reroll all wounds. This unit is 210 points and almost averages a kill against a model that's over 300 points. Granted he can get the jump on the bird. Are we talking about the same weapon - Heavy Venom Cannon? Assault d3 str9 ap-1 d3d range 36?It averages way more than a single damage over 2 turns.
Venom Cannon with Flyrant BS 3+, 4+ against Flyers
D3 = average 2 shots a turn. 1 hit at 4+. S9 vs T7 wounds 2 outta 3 times. Then they get to save that at 4+. Then it averages 2 damage per unsaved wound. Thats 0.66 wounds a turn.
And yeah I derped on the rending claws. They grant re-rolls.
With that in mind, at max health, a Flyrant does 9.53 wounds a turn in combat to a Stormraven. Call it 10 with the Venom Cannon, and throw another 2 on for Smite. It's nearly a dead Stormraven.
Its not a bad option honestly. But the Venom Cannon is probably a waste of 30 points. Even the Deathspitter outdamages it slightly. Better off empty handed, 180 pts total is close to the price of his Stormhawks.
Smite is nice. The problem is, that they are outranged and outgunned. It can't make it to combat without first taking a turn of shooting at the very least. And it can't live through a turn of shooting. So you have to take multiples.
Take 2 and 1 makes it to combat, ALMOST kills a Stormraven, and then dies next turn to the Stormhawks and Stormravens combined. Not practical.
So I guess a minimum of 3? 1 dies 2 make it to combat and cripple two Stormhawks, 1 dies the next turn. then ONE hopefully gets to charge a Stormhawk, blow it up, then with 2 Stormhawks crippled and half his AA gone, the game starts tilting your way?
EDIT: its lame that we cant put Flyrants in an airwing :(
Sorry, i don't see all those wounds in combat.
4 Attacks, which give you 4/6 of each result. Since you wound on 5+, that means 16/6 of rerolls. Out of those 16/6, 16/36 will score a 5 and 16/36 will score a 6, the others will fail again.
So in the end, after rerolls you have 4/6+16/36 scores of 5, and the same number of 6. This amounts to 1,1. Those attacks need to hit (yes you hit before wounding, but it was easier to calculate it like this). This means that for each number, you get an average of 0,92 results. The 5 are saved on 6+, so 0,77 go through the armor and inflict on average 1,53 wounds. The 6 cannot be saved, so all 0,92 are unsaved and inflict 3,68 wounds (with toxins). The grand total is 5,23 wounds. There is also the tail, but the damage is negligible without reroll and AP (0,185 wounds).
This is in the extremely unlikely case that the tyrant is over half wounds, something that even just overwatch can negate.
I am more sold on spamming massive amounts of Spore Mines and drop them in the area where the flyers will have to land. They are just 10 points a model, so you can buy about 40 for 2 Flyrants. If the flyers cannot be placed, they are dead. Even if they can be placed, they will probably be very close to some spores. If they do not kill all of them, you can just advance them close to the flyer for multiple D3 mortal wounds. (you do not have to charge with them!)
Xenomancers wrote: Its reroll all wounds and ap-6 with 3 auto damage roll (toxin will make this 4 wounds) on 6's ap -3 the rest of the time. Storm raven has a 3+ save with no invo. It's basically never taking saves vs your CC attacks unless you wound with a 5 and he gets a 6+ you still get d3 damage on this also. You hit on 2's and reroll all wounds. This unit is 210 points and almost averages a kill against a model that's over 300 points. Granted he can get the jump on the bird. Are we talking about the same weapon - Heavy Venom Cannon? Assault d3 str9 ap-1 d3d range 36?It averages way more than a single damage over 2 turns.
Venom Cannon with Flyrant BS 3+, 4+ against Flyers
D3 = average 2 shots a turn. 1 hit at 4+. S9 vs T7 wounds 2 outta 3 times. Then they get to save that at 4+. Then it averages 2 damage per unsaved wound. Thats 0.66 wounds a turn.
And yeah I derped on the rending claws. They grant re-rolls.
With that in mind, at max health, a Flyrant does 9.53 wounds a turn in combat to a Stormraven. Call it 10 with the Venom Cannon, and throw another 2 on for Smite. It's nearly a dead Stormraven.
Its not a bad option honestly. But the Venom Cannon is probably a waste of 30 points. Even the Deathspitter outdamages it slightly. Better off empty handed, 180 pts total is close to the price of his Stormhawks.
Smite is nice. The problem is, that they are outranged and outgunned. It can't make it to combat without first taking a turn of shooting at the very least. And it can't live through a turn of shooting. So you have to take multiples.
Take 2 and 1 makes it to combat, ALMOST kills a Stormraven, and then dies next turn to the Stormhawks and Stormravens combined. Not practical.
So I guess a minimum of 3? 1 dies 2 make it to combat and cripple two Stormhawks, 1 dies the next turn. then ONE hopefully gets to charge a Stormhawk, blow it up, then with 2 Stormhawks crippled and half his AA gone, the game starts tilting your way?
EDIT: its lame that we cant put Flyrants in an airwing :(
Sorry, i don't see all those wounds in combat.
4 Attacks, which give you 4/6 of each result. Since you wound on 5+, that means 16/6 of rerolls. Out of those 16/6, 16/36 will score a 5 and 16/36 will score a 6, the others will fail again.
So in the end, after rerolls you have 4/6+16/36 scores of 5, and the same number of 6. This amounts to 1,1. Those attacks need to hit (yes you hit before wounding, but it was easier to calculate it like this). This means that for each number, you get an average of 0,92 results. The 5 are saved on 6+, so 0,77 go through the armor and inflict on average 1,53 wounds. The 6 cannot be saved, so all 0,92 are unsaved and inflict 3,68 wounds (with toxins). The grand total is 5,23 wounds. There is also the tail, but the damage is negligible without reroll and AP (0,185 wounds).
This is in the extremely unlikely case that the tyrant is over half wounds, something that even just overwatch can negate.
You are absolutely right, I misinput a step and threw out my whole calcs. TY for double checking
You right all up, they aren't gonna work vs Stormravens at all
Xenomancers wrote: Its reroll all wounds and ap-6 with 3 auto damage roll (toxin will make this 4 wounds) on 6's ap -3 the rest of the time. Storm raven has a 3+ save with no invo. It's basically never taking saves vs your CC attacks unless you wound with a 5 and he gets a 6+ you still get d3 damage on this also. You hit on 2's and reroll all wounds. This unit is 210 points and almost averages a kill against a model that's over 300 points. Granted he can get the jump on the bird. Are we talking about the same weapon - Heavy Venom Cannon? Assault d3 str9 ap-1 d3d range 36?It averages way more than a single damage over 2 turns.
Venom Cannon with Flyrant BS 3+, 4+ against Flyers
D3 = average 2 shots a turn. 1 hit at 4+. S9 vs T7 wounds 2 outta 3 times. Then they get to save that at 4+. Then it averages 2 damage per unsaved wound. Thats 0.66 wounds a turn.
And yeah I derped on the rending claws. They grant re-rolls.
With that in mind, at max health, a Flyrant does 9.53 wounds a turn in combat to a Stormraven. Call it 10 with the Venom Cannon, and throw another 2 on for Smite. It's nearly a dead Stormraven.
Its not a bad option honestly. But the Venom Cannon is probably a waste of 30 points. Even the Deathspitter outdamages it slightly. Better off empty handed, 180 pts total is close to the price of his Stormhawks.
Smite is nice. The problem is, that they are outranged and outgunned. It can't make it to combat without first taking a turn of shooting at the very least. And it can't live through a turn of shooting. So you have to take multiples.
Take 2 and 1 makes it to combat, ALMOST kills a Stormraven, and then dies next turn to the Stormhawks and Stormravens combined. Not practical.
So I guess a minimum of 3? 1 dies 2 make it to combat and cripple two Stormhawks, 1 dies the next turn. then ONE hopefully gets to charge a Stormhawk, blow it up, then with 2 Stormhawks crippled and half his AA gone, the game starts tilting your way?
EDIT: its lame that we cant put Flyrants in an airwing :(
Sorry, i don't see all those wounds in combat.
4 Attacks, which give you 4/6 of each result. Since you wound on 5+, that means 16/6 of rerolls. Out of those 16/6, 16/36 will score a 5 and 16/36 will score a 6, the others will fail again.
So in the end, after rerolls you have 4/6+16/36 scores of 5, and the same number of 6. This amounts to 1,1. Those attacks need to hit (yes you hit before wounding, but it was easier to calculate it like this). This means that for each number, you get an average of 0,92 results. The 5 are saved on 6+, so 0,77 go through the armor and inflict on average 1,53 wounds. The 6 cannot be saved, so all 0,92 are unsaved and inflict 3,68 wounds (with toxins). The grand total is 5,23 wounds. There is also the tail, but the damage is negligible without reroll and AP (0,185 wounds).
This is in the extremely unlikely case that the tyrant is over half wounds, something that even just overwatch can negate.
You are absolutely right, I misinput a step and threw out my whole calcs. TY for double checking
You right all up, they aren't gonna work vs Stormravens at all
You didn't mess up anything - the tyrant hits on 2's. The tails damage isn't negligable ether it does d3 damage.
Astmeister wrote: I am more sold on spamming massive amounts of Spore Mines and drop them in the area where the flyers will have to land. They are just 10 points a model, so you can buy about 40 for 2 Flyrants. If the flyers cannot be placed, they are dead. Even if they can be placed, they will probably be very close to some spores. If they do not kill all of them, you can just advance them close to the flyer for multiple D3 mortal wounds. (you do not have to charge with them!)
i like the train of thought, but they have 20-45" speed so you have to block off a LOT of ground to lock them out, would it work? They do have the fat bases at least.
If so, its not actually going to kill any of them - they will just go to hover mode where they have no minimum move and hang around where they are. This will let you assault them so kind of ideal, but how feasible is locking down more or less the entire board with spores? and in the rest of your matches, how useful will spores be?
I think this could be cool, but I gotta know the answers to those questions lol
I think you have to anticipate a bit and practice it, but you can get the flyers into real trouble. Especially when there are so many flyers who all want to land somewhere.
Do not forget that the Stormhawk cannot hover at all! And he will be much more dangerous than the Stormtalon, because he has T7 instead of T6.
In other matchups we are talking about a point investement of 180-360 points for the spore mines. This is not really a lot, especially since the spore mines grant a lot of map control in such huge numbers. This will be a serious threat to the enemy psychologically and also for real. Do not forget that he has to spend a lot of fire power to remove them or might get Mortal Wounds.
Btw. as I said against Stormravens the Meotic spores could be pretty mean combined with a Swarmlord. They have a different method of deployment and can charge (or advance in blow up distance) on first turn with Swarmy.
Just spit-balling the use of gargoyles vs flyers. A 30 man gargoyle squad is a rather large foot print and can attack, although not great, one wound with blinding venom is -1 to shooting. Pair that with your big shooters (hive guard, exocrine, biovores (even the misses cause problems with spores)) along with a malathrope to give the -1 shooting. Also the horror for more -1 to hit on a raven. There are tools but I feel like we are list building for a specific list which you don't typically do.
It's tough for missions unless they kill all our stuff so cheap gaunt and gargoyles seem like a good idea. Have some trygon waiting in reserve with some stealers and wait for your moment.
but if we cant force them to hover or die, then its kind of not really all that relevant where they land, not only can we still not kill them , we now have 300 points less firepower. Need to go all in on it I think. How many to lock them out the board
A base of rippers costs 1 point more than a mine and has a larger footprint. They can actually cap points, are troops and take a bit more than a stray bolter shot to die.
The idea is that you can try to decline them any landing spot. This means rule wise that they are dead (see RB). Besides the Spore Mines add a lot to a list anyway. I already talked about it.
Rippers: You can do that, but they cannot harm the flyers in any way. If the flyers find a way to land anywhere between the spore mines, they are in trouble if they do not kill all of them which are close. Btw. they even explode in the enemies charge phase, whether or not he charged anything. So it can be very dangerous for the opponent.
Of course the idea using spore mines is not a simple button you can hit to negate all his flyers. You have to practice and see how it works out in games. Even terrain might change a lot of things.
Niiai wrote: Shuppet, or someone else who is good at mathhammer could we do a spreadsheet for the units contesting to shoot up the front line? I think this could help with the argument. That way you can decide if you wanne run straight dakka fexes vs having warriors in the list for a more utilaty unit that does other things as well.
So we.would need averedge wound per point we pay. Then we need to do this vs marines and guards menn.
The contesters as far as I can see are:
Devourer gaunts
Carnifex, 4 x brainleech
Carnifex, 4 x brainleech, plasma
Carnifex, 4 x slimer maggots
Carnifex, 4 x slimer maggots, plasma
Tyranofex, fleshborer hive, standing still (40 shots)
Warriors, devourers, barbed strangler
Warriors, deathspitters, barbed strangler
Warriors, devourers, venom cannon
Warriors, deathspitters, barbed strangler
At what point a tyranid prime with a cannon starts earning its points back.
Are there any others I am missing? Raveners with guns, Hive guards, pyrovores or biovores, are they contesters?
Raveners are basically going to be slightly more expensive Warriors as far as shooting goes, probably not even worth calculating, you can just look at them and know "ok if I want my Warriors to have Deepstrike its going to be SLIGHTLY less efficient shooting per model than Warriors" Pyrovores I'll check. Biovores not really. I'll include Borer TFex as well. And Wyverns too. If someone can message me the entire rules for Thudd Gun ill do it as well.
I will set-up units of AROUND the same amount of points and do all calcs vs GEQ so we can actually see what it practically looks like
I could do vs MEQ as well, but it will take double as long and I feel like MEQ units aren't going to be screening anything - they will just be the target. I'm not super familiar with the new meta though. Is there any real reason to do calcs vs MEQ here?
That sounds nice.
The reason I was thinking marines is that for some of our units, like the plasma carnifex, get much more kills for their points vs 3+ save then vs t3 no armour guards.
The reason I was thinking of ravaners is that while they are 3 points more expensive then warriors and do not have synapse, they do come with their own delivery system. That means you can start shooting away the bubble wrap much earlier.
While I don't know how good it is, a trygon prine with dakka gaunts and ravaners can lay down very good fire. This might be better in lower points games where the trygon prime survives a turn of shooting. Ravaners has a very bad LS shave.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Oh, @Luke, I meant to add... Don't forget in your math that Quad Mortar Batteries count as Infantry and Vehicles, whereas Wyverns are just Vehicles.
That means a 30pt Company Commander can issue re-roll 1's to Mortars versus Wyverns who cannot. This also means you don't lose a 2nd CP as you can take a dirt-cheap HQ and three separate Mortars if you're so inclined.
It really puts the two, mathematically at pretty close to even across the board.
You are not wrong. Unfortunately, Taurox Primes are even better. A little more expensive but they put out a stupid amount of damage, and they hit on 3's if they can stay stationary (aka after the first turn).
The 30 point dude is really just there to give immunity to morale for my conscripts, who it seems are going to have to be a mainstay screening unit
It's kind of tragic how Nids need the gunline support competitively. I wonder if there is a good counts as or conversion for a Tyranid Taurox prime?
Well, I wouldn't say they NEED the help to be competitive. They're very much a competitive army, but a little list-building shenanigans, IMO elevates them to GT winning tier. I'll be running the arty + search-lights soon and suspect I will win.
But yes you're correct I'm trying to optimize for the top tier of competitive play. Throwing 60 Genestealers at most armies, even good ones, will be more than they can handle. That's typically enough for the layperson's use of the term "competitive"
Truthfully, I would go with bodies and psykers to and play objectives. With Venom / Malanthrope support, those Flyers are hitting on 5s. Add in the Horror and Mass Hypnosis and 2 of them are hitting on 6s. In 2k points flood the board with bodies and try to get smites off. Against that type of list I would avoid big monsters, unless you know you have adequate terrain. Exocrines in Ruins with Malantropes are resilient.
But yes you're correct I'm trying to optimize for the top tier of competitive play. Throwing 60 Genestealers at most armies, even good ones, will be more than they can handle. That's typically enough for the layperson's use of the term "competitive"
Arty = Artillery (Wyverns and/or Heavy Quad Mortar Batteries) + Sabre Batteries w/Searchlight (IE AM Marker-lights of the Gods). I will guarantee right now that its a tournament-winning addition to every top 'Nid list. Having the Mortars w/Orders being able to hit on 2's (with 2 searchlights) re-rolling 1's, is insane screen cleaning.
Nasty wrote: I think that vs a full stormraven team we can use
24 hive guard
2/3 exo
1/2 malnthrope
Let's say you're right. What does that army do against literally every other army except perhaps imperial knights? Auto lose.
This is the same issue that our Flyrant spam list of 7th caused. We could do great against pretty much everything, but any opponent that did well against us would likely be at a disadvantage.
I think stormraven spam will still lose to a good shooting army. GT's are interesting because if you don't draw a bad matchup over a very small sample size, you have every chance to win if you're a good enough general and the dice don't betray you
But as far as what we can do against stormraven spam? Pretty much nothing. Our assault bugs sit there uselessly, hoping the opponent will move block himself. Our shooty bugs get focused down, and will absolutely not win a gunfight against those guys.
In a bit of bitter irony, I think quad Flyrant lists would actually do pretty well against that list. But again, the melee flyrant is far from what the flyrant of 6th used to be. I don't think it's bad, but it's not about to go out and win a GT.
But yes you're correct I'm trying to optimize for the top tier of competitive play. Throwing 60 Genestealers at most armies, even good ones, will be more than they can handle. That's typically enough for the layperson's use of the term "competitive"
Arty = Artillery (Wyverns and/or Heavy Quad Mortar Batteries) + Sabre Batteries w/Searchlight (IE AM Marker-lights of the Gods). I will guarantee right now that its a tournament-winning addition to every top 'Nid list. Having the Mortars w/Orders being able to hit on 2's (with 2 searchlights) re-rolling 1's, is insane screen cleaning.
Hold the phone while I go read about these searchlights in my FW index!!!
Automatically Appended Next Post: OH MY SWEET BABY JESUS THATS NOT REAL
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wait you can't stack that though, can you?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, you're not going to get the re-rolling 1's. It's not the infantry that are firing the mortar, so you can't use orders on the gun
The profile has both keywords, infantry and vehicle... As they're listed as one unit (and the gun dies if its crew does, or leaves) I suggest that RAW you absolutely can take commands.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And yeah... no one has noticed Search-Lights being as game-breaking as they are yet. They're literally super insta-hit Markerlights. :-p
Well I just started a thing in YMDC about whether Searchlights stack (not sure IMO). Still very good even if they don't
You should re-read the Artillery Battery special rule. They're treated as separate units once they deploy (so watch out for those KP missions too). And the keywords are separated. The crew are infantry and the weapons themselves are vehicles and artillery. So you can give orders to the guardsmen (who btw can fire their own weapons every turn) but they're not conferring their firing bonuses to the weapons. They just need to be "nearby to operate". So I don't think orders can ever be given to artillery. The only thing you can do is grab Yarick and let them re-roll 1's. Sabre batteries are much better and cheaper even if they don't stack
luke1705 wrote: Well I just started a thing in YMDC about whether Searchlights stack (not sure IMO). Still very good even if they don't
You should re-read the Artillery Battery special rule. They're treated as separate units once they deploy (so watch out for those KP missions too). And the keywords are separated. The crew are infantry and the weapons themselves are vehicles and artillery. So you can give orders to the guardsmen (who btw can fire their own weapons every turn) but they're not conferring their firing bonuses to the weapons. They just need to be "nearby to operate". So I don't think orders can ever be given to artillery. The only thing you can do is grab Yarick and let them re-roll 1's. Sabre batteries are much better and cheaper even if they don't stack
If so, it means the Wyverns definitely pull just a bit ahead on the desirability meter too. Still, we're probably quibbling over a 10% efficiency gap here, and in either case, good, hidden artillery with even one 20pt "fake Markerlight" is as delicious a long-range screen-killer, as competitive 'Nids could ever wish for. :-)
luke1705,
I actually field 2 units of Hive Guard, and 2 Exocrines for my long ranged shooting. I also field a large unit of termagaunts and gargoyles which can get in range pretty easily and do decent damage at range.
I don't go for turn 1 charges or deployments very often and instead sit back with my longer ranged shooting inside a void shield to soften targets up a bit and use my gargoyles to move forward to do some damage and draw some fire.
I've found this to be sufficient against most things baring Stormraven spam and Dark Eldar.
If so, it means the Wyverns definitely pull just a bit ahead on the desirability meter too. Still, we're probably quibbling over a 10% efficiency gap here, and in either case, good, hidden artillery with even one 20pt "fake Markerlight" is as delicious a long-range screen-killer, as competitive 'Nids could ever wish for. :-)
Was my conclusion as well. Still, Taurox Primes are ahead of both. Hitting on the same with a "mere" 38" threat range, and on a turn where it doesn't move (turn 2+) hitting on 3's (or 2's with the marker lights) is good enough. But even without shred, it still puts out so many more shots. It's consistently at 20 for the main gun, which is great because you'll never get bad rolls and it's still 6 above the average for the wyvern.
But effectively you get 31 bolter shots, 8 of which are rend -2. I'd have to check out the wounds per point vs T4, where the wyvern has the greatest advantage, but I don't see it coming out ahead for the wyvern. It's not too many fewer points.
Something that I also don't like about the wyvern is that you give the enemy a cover save bonus when you indirect fire. So that cuts down on your kill percentage if you're trying to hide.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SideshowLucifer wrote: luke1705,
I actually field 2 units of Hive Guard, and 2 Exocrines for my long ranged shooting. I also field a large unit of termagaunts and gargoyles which can get in range pretty easily and do decent damage at range.
I don't go for turn 1 charges or deployments very often and instead sit back with my longer ranged shooting inside a void shield to soften targets up a bit and use my gargoyles to move forward to do some damage and draw some fire.
I've found this to be sufficient against most things baring Stormraven spam and Dark Eldar.
Yeah and that's a solid fire base. As you've said, it won't beat stormraven spam but it sounds like a great TAC list. My point was that the only way we compete against stormrave spam is by list tailoring, and that list would lose to most other lists in the game. So I'd probably just not worry about it. If you come up against it in a tournament, them's the breaks. Take the L and win the next game
Fragile wrote: Truthfully, I would go with bodies and psykers to and play objectives. With Venom / Malanthrope support, those Flyers are hitting on 5s. Add in the Horror and Mass Hypnosis and 2 of them are hitting on 6s. In 2k points flood the board with bodies and try to get smites off. Against that type of list I would avoid big monsters, unless you know you have adequate terrain. Exocrines in Ruins with Malantropes are resilient.
They are hitting on 3+, so a venom/malan knocks that down to 4+ and a power puts it to 5+.
Honestly our best bet is to mind control one and make flyers shoot each other.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Best part about this is that if Girlyman is around you do reroll hit and wound, since it is still a friendly ultramarine model.
Fragile wrote: Truthfully, I would go with bodies and psykers to and play objectives. With Venom / Malanthrope support, those Flyers are hitting on 5s. Add in the Horror and Mass Hypnosis and 2 of them are hitting on 6s. In 2k points flood the board with bodies and try to get smites off. Against that type of list I would avoid big monsters, unless you know you have adequate terrain. Exocrines in Ruins with Malantropes are resilient.
They are hitting on 3+, so a venom/malan knocks that down to 4+ and a power puts it to 5+.
Honestly our best bet is to mind control one and make flyers shoot each other.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Best part about this is that if Girlyman is around you do reroll hit and wound, since it is still a friendly ultramarine model.
No it isn't... A model you're controlling is treated as yours for the duration of the control, so it isn't friendly to their own buffs.
Mathammer wise, devilgants and Flyrants are our two most points efficient damage on Stormravens. Both require a delivery mechanism/redundancy to get close enough though, either a Trygon Prime (probably best for synapse) for the gants, or a Tcyte for the Tyrant. But I lean devilgants as they are a lot less risky, as they don't rely on you getting smite and a charge off.
In any event, practically I think they way to play VS such a list would be to exploit the 20" minimum move the ravens have. With big blobs of gants and Gargs you threaten them with shooting if they want to get in range to shoot themselves, and Gargs threaten the charge - easily if you have Swarmy to catapult them forward. With some good spacing you leave the Ravens nowhere to go but their own deployment zone (and even then they will be forced to turn and come out of it T2 at least due to the 90 degree turn arc). You force them to come nearer to you so you can pose a threat, or to hover, which is where your trygon tunnels full of genes come in!
Oh, the one thing I overlooked was Spores - Meiotic are doubly as points efficient as either of the two above! Challenge is actually getting them close enough to do anything though. I suppose if you Infiltrate them as close as you can, then you might be able to squeeze the ravens towards you?
Are Hive Guard really that good? Neither of their guns feel that inspiring, though I guess there's not that much shooting in the army that isn't on big monsters.
Fragile wrote: Truthfully, I would go with bodies and psykers to and play objectives. With Venom / Malanthrope support, those Flyers are hitting on 5s. Add in the Horror and Mass Hypnosis and 2 of them are hitting on 6s. In 2k points flood the board with bodies and try to get smites off. Against that type of list I would avoid big monsters, unless you know you have adequate terrain. Exocrines in Ruins with Malantropes are resilient.
They are hitting on 3+, so a venom/malan knocks that down to 4+ and a power puts it to 5+.
Honestly our best bet is to mind control one and make flyers shoot each other.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Best part about this is that if Girlyman is around you do reroll hit and wound, since it is still a friendly ultramarine model.
No it isn't... A model you're controlling is treated as yours for the duration of the control, so it isn't friendly to their own buffs.
Don't want to turn this into a YMDC thread, but in 8th there is no such rule and that power doesn't say anywhere that you control the unit.
Requizen wrote: Are Hive Guard really that good? Neither of their guns feel that inspiring, though I guess there's not that much shooting in the army that isn't on big monsters.
Compared to our other options? Yes. Basically them, an exocrine, biovores, a harpy or a hierodule are our ranged high strength/long range options.
Compared to pretty much any other army? They're rather unimpressive
Automatically Appended Next Post: I don't....think you get Girlyman's buffs, but I could see that being FAQ'd either way
Requizen wrote: Are Hive Guard really that good? Neither of their guns feel that inspiring, though I guess there's not that much shooting in the army that isn't on big monsters.
They are decent and they fill a role we don't have many options for. I've ran 6x Hive Guard, 2x Exocrine, and a pair of Warrior squads with Venom Cannons and Scyth. Talons as a fire base a few times, and it has worked out well.
As for Hive Guard, the Impaler Cannon totally feels worth the extra 9 points over the Shockcannon, right? The MW against vehicles seems pretty lackluster compared to the reliable number of shots, better range, and better profile.
Requizen wrote: As for Hive Guard, the Impaler Cannon totally feels worth the extra 9 points over the Shockcannon, right? The MW against vehicles seems pretty lackluster compared to the reliable number of shots, better range, and better profile.
I found that the Impaler Cannon has a lot of utility against elite units. Reliably putting 3-4 wounds on things like missile launcher marines at -2 AP, no cover, is more useful than it looks at first glance.
Hive guards are better then ever. 36 range. High S, Hits on 3+, does not need line of sight, -2 armour and 1d3 damage. Yes yes yes. Quite good, not amazing.
SHUPPET wrote: how the hell does BioFlail work? I mean, assuming for a second that we say its only applying its bonus to itself...
does it REPLACE all your attacks with 1 for each model?
does it give you EXTRA attacks based on the number of models?
or does it MULTIPLY each attack with the Flail to roll to hit against each model around you?
How it is written I would say when you make a attack with it you make the number of attacks equal to the number of duders in range (kinda like a weapon that does D3 attacks) it is absolutely broken..
what I believe they were aiming for was more like some older weapons where you forgo your attacks and just make the number of attacks equal to the duders in range
SHUPPET wrote: how the hell does BioFlail work? I mean, assuming for a second that we say its only applying its bonus to itself...
does it REPLACE all your attacks with 1 for each model?
does it give you EXTRA attacks based on the number of models?
or does it MULTIPLY each attack with the Flail to roll to hit against each model around you?
How it is written I would say when you make a attack with it you make the number of attacks equal to the number of duders in range (kinda like a weapon that does D3 attacks) it is absolutely broken..
what I believe they were aiming for was more like some older weapons where you forgo your attacks and just make the number of attacks equal to the duders in range
You'll also see that it doesn't even specify the attacks is generates have to be used on the flail itsself. Such messy worded weapon
Requizen wrote: As for Hive Guard, the Impaler Cannon totally feels worth the extra 9 points over the Shockcannon, right? The MW against vehicles seems pretty lackluster compared to the reliable number of shots, better range, and better profile.
I found that the Impaler Cannon has a lot of utility against elite units. Reliably putting 3-4 wounds on things like missile launcher marines at -2 AP, no cover, is more useful than it looks at first glance.
I'm running 2 units with impalers and 2 units with shock cannons and I must say that Shock Cannons seem very good against vehicles and you can then focus Impaler Cannon fire on elite units as said above. Most dmg I've done with Shock Cannons was 15 wounds to a Stormsurge with 3 Cannons. Also last game my Shock Cannons killed 3 Necron flyers...although I admit that range on those guns can sometimes be a little problem so you'd have to advance and take -1 to hit with them, onslaught of course helps here.
*Note I used the +1 to hit modifier on all Barbed Strangler shots as it was assuming we were always shooting at +10 models.
The Horrors are crazy durable but they're also the only ones here without a way to bypass LD. Tyrannofex looks good on paper but he's all 18'' range and standing still is not going to be an option 70% of the time.
x2 Dakkafex with x4 Devourers each = 194 points
6.67 Conscripts per turn
6.67 Ork Boys per turn
5 Brimestone Horrors per turn
3.33 Brimestone Horrors with Changeling buff per turn
8.33 Kroot / Hounds / Gants per turn
6.67 Poxwalkers per turn
x2 Dakkafex with x4 Deathspitters each = 218 points
8.33 Conscripts per turn
8 Ork Boys per turn
5 Brimestone Horrors per turn
3.33 Brimestone Horrors with Changeling buff per turn
10 Kroot / Hounds / Gants per turn
6.67 Poxwalkers per turn
11.11 Conscripts per turn
13.78 Ork Boys per turn
8 Brimestone Horrors per turn
5.33 Brimestone Horrors with Changeling buff per turn
13.78 Kroot / Hounds / Gants per turn
10.67 Poxwalkers per turn
T-Fex w/ FBH & Stinger Salvo having moved = 213 points
5.56 Conscripts per turn
6.89 Ork Boys per turn
4 Brimestone Horrors per turn
2.67 Brimestone Horrors with Changeling buff per turn
6.89 Kroot / Hounds / Gants per turn
5.33 Poxwalkers per turn
x9 Warriors with Devourers = 216 points
6 Conscripts per turn
5.63 Ork Boys per turn
4.5 Brimestone Horrors per turn
3 Brimestone Horrors with Changeling buff per turn
7.5 Kroot / Hounds / Gants per turn
6 Poxwalkers per turn
x6 Warriors with Devourers + x3 Warriors with Barbed Stranglers = 249 points
7.89 Conscripts per turn
8.42 Ork Boys per turn
5.33 Brimestone Horrors per turn
3.75 Brimestone Horrors with Changeling buff per turn
8.75 Kroot / Hounds / Gants per turn
7.11 Poxwalkers per turn
x9 Warriors with Deathspitters = 249 points
7.5 Conscripts per turn
9 Ork Boys per turn
4.5 Brimestone Horrors per turn
3 Brimestone Horrors with Changeling buff per turn
9 Kroot / Hounds / Gants per turn
6 Poxwalkers per turn
x6 Warriors with Deathspitters + x3 Warriors with Barbed Stranglers = 270 points
8.89 Conscripts per turn
10.67 Ork Boys per turn
5.33 Brimestone Horrors per turn
3.75 Brimestone Horrors with Changeling buff per turn
13.50 Kroot / Hounds / Gants per turn
7.11 Poxwalkers per turn
Those are some very useful numbers! If you have some spare time could you run a Tyrannocyte? x5 Spitters, Venoms, or Stranglers. I am pondering using one to drop in a Carnifex, or Tyrannofex...I figure those extra 5 shots might be helpful.
I would be very surprised if the bio flail wound up getting FAQ'd to mean that you can multiply your attacks by the number of people around you. Would love it if that were the case, but I highly doubt it. Not saying that's not a valid reading; just that I would be literally shocked if GW said, "yep that's what we meant". Most likely, I think it either replaces all of your attacks or you need to allocate 1 attack to make it work, giving you 3 other attacks (assuming you took the thresher scythe)
Played against another Nids player. He had 36 Stealers (only 1 Trygon) a broodlord, malanthrope, swarmy, a stone crusher fex, Dimachaeron and Barbie. Mission: cloak and shadows (maelstrom). This was interesting because shooting at over 18" gave -1 to hit. I could spend 1 CP a turn to negate that against 1 of his units, but this wound up being moderately problematic throughout the game.
Quick synopsis: he went first, I opted not to seize. Barbie cooked two flashlights turn 1, the Dimachaeron double moved and charged my conscript screen, as did the Trygon. The stealers coming out of the Trygon failed their charge. (The new dawn of war deployment). The conscripts lost some more to morale but didn't die. They fell back, allowing me to shoot the Dimachaeron and charge him with Swarmy. The earthshaker cannons took the Trygon down to 2 wounds, the flashlight I had left mitigated -1 to hit vs the 20 man unit of stealers. Because I had to move 2 Taurox Primes, it took all 3 of them shooting to finish off the unit, but they did. Swarmy double moved a squad of Stealers; the other squad of my Stealers flanked and charged his second unit of Stealers, killing them. The stealers that Swarmy double moved took the stone crusher low but didn't kill him, and were also able to multi assault the malanthrope. By the end of turn 3, he had only the hierodule left, and I had lost basically only 1 squad of stealers and some conscripts.
Thoughts after the game:
I'm glad that I got to play against an aggressive assault list, as I felt that my bubble wrap unit was a point of weakness in my list. Would be interesting to play an assault army that could clear out my screen better (aka I still think I might need a stronger screen, but 2 units and 33 bodies still isn't awful). Other things I'd still like the optimize: would like to upgrade the company commander to a lord commissar for 20 more points to give the conscripts effective morale immunity, but I'd rather not give up a search light to do so. If I had the going first advantage of the ability to deny first blood when going second (I have neither) it could be worthwhile, but as is, I don't see the pros outweighing the cons. Loved the AM units. Taurox Primes are beasts, and that was through the stupid cover of darkness. Often I had to move them to get within 18", so they were hitting a lot on 4's and they were still all stars. Almost did 3 wounds to a Trygon on overwatch The earthshakers suffered greatly due to the mission (always shooting from over 18" away meant mostly hitting on 5's, but they still performed well). If I played a normal mission, each could be hitting on 3's if I spent my flashlights there and managed to go first (or my opponent shot other things). In general, if that was worst case scenario performance, I'm very happy with them.
Only 4 CP is a little rough but I think prioritizing what's most important to use it on is the skill to develop for 8th. In general, I think the list is pretty strong. The fire base support is just so critical to Nids, although I didn't get to test clearing out screening units with my shooting, as his list had none.
Played against another Nids player. He had 36 Stealers (only 1 Trygon) a broodlord, malanthrope, swarmy, a stone crusher fex, Dimachaeron and Barbie. Mission: cloak and shadows (maelstrom). This was interesting because shooting at over 18" gave -1 to hit. I could spend 1 CP a turn to negate that against 1 of his units, but this wound up being moderately problematic throughout the game.
Quick synopsis: he went first, I opted not to seize. Barbie cooked two flashlights turn 1, the Dimachaeron double moved and charged my conscript screen, as did the Trygon. The stealers coming out of the Trygon failed their charge. (The new dawn of war deployment). The conscripts lost some more to morale but didn't die. They fell back, allowing me to shoot the Dimachaeron and charge him with Swarmy. The earthshaker cannons took the Trygon down to 2 wounds, the flashlight I had left mitigated cover vs the 20 man unit of stealers. Because I had to move 2 Taurox Primes, it took all 3 of them shooting to finish off the unit, but they did. Swarmy double moved a squad of Stealers; the other squad of my Stealers flanked and charged his second unit of Stealers, killing them. The stealers that Swarmy double moved took the stone crusher low but didn't kill him, and were also able to multi assault the malanthrope. By the end of turn 3, he had only the hierodule left, and I had lost basically only 1 squad of stealers and some conscripts.
I thought you would require one complete GSC detachment to enable an AM detachment, or are you using the -1CP detachment as the bare requirement?
Thanks for the report!
For me personally the list is really too much AM and too little Tyranids. It might be that the AM parts add a lot to your army, but at what cost? You are barely playing Tyranids anymore....
Trygon's and Stealers are just not me.
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