Siphen wrote: I'm going to ask a somewhat controversial question...Is the Swarmlord actually worth taking?
Yes.
Spoiler:
To expand on that, force multiplication is the most OP thing there is (other than perhaps genestealers). The reason why the malanthrope was so great was because it gave an effective 2+/3++ to any bug we put in cover. This was because almost anything that had ignores cover likely was not also AP 3.
With the Swarmlord, the importance of doubling the move characteristic (and doubling the advance move of genestealers or the target of a successful catalyst) would be difficult to overstate. You're getting to the enemy a turn sooner, literally. How do you protect our bugs from guns? Get them to combat. Sure, units can fall back, but if we get enough units there, it will nullify the shooting of much of the opponent's army. I fully expect to be using the swarmlord's ability on the dimachaeron turn 1 (assuming he isn't trash), himself turn 2, and whoever needs it turn 3.
The fact that he can be singled out is a real threat, which is why tyrant guard are so important. I would never leave home without 3, but I've never felt that they weren't worth their points. Getting the Swarmlord into CC unscathed is literally amazing. This will almost always happen, whether it's by the guard taking one for the team or them just deciding they have more pressing things to worry about and not shooting swarmy at all because of his retinue.
And just a quick aside on turn 1 charges - people are naysaying them because "people can castle/bubble wrap". Those people are not wrong. But you give up other things in order to do that (board control, the units you send to die). And regardless of how effective the initial charge is, the fact that we can have one makes literally all the difference in the world. The reason why we never took assault Carnifexes before was because they would always die before they got to combat. Pod in Old One Eye. Nearly 50% success rate with the CP re-roll for a T1 charge. Give OOE Swarmy's double move and catalyst. Hugely likely he makes combat T2, and an outside possibility he could make it turn 1 if your opponent doesn't respect his threat range.
^^which is the biggest reason why swarmy is such a big deal. Doubling the threat range of whatever unit you deem most important literally opens up doors, and it's very difficult for even a good opponent to see these things coming. I rolled a 5 with my genestealers on their advance, a 4 on their Swarmlord advance...that's a 25" move before the assault even happens. Totally caught my opponent off guard because they started the turn over 2 feet away and then moved an additional 8" on their charge plus 3" pile in. That's slightly above average roll, and they moved 36" in one turn! Insane! When any of your units can do that, the things it does to your threat range are incredible. In a heartbeat, I would take 2 swarmlords if I could. 3 might be a bit much but it wouldn't be awful
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and you know, he just happens to be synapse, Shadow in the warp, a ML3 psyker, and a giant CC beat stick. I mean, what else could we even ask for?
Well said. However, once the edition actually comes out and people start playing a bunch of games, I don't think it'll be as easy to catch people off guard once they know what he can do. As far as getting to the enemy a turn sooner, that can be extremely valuable. But assaulting on turn 1 with 20 Genestealers vs trying to assault on turn 2 with 45 Genestealers (since Swarmy costs 25 Genestealers by himself)....I think you're right, but I also think it's worth testing it out. A lot of people may be stuck in the "wow factor" of assaulting on turn 1, since that's a new thing.
rvd1ofakind wrote:So what are the best units. Asking for a friend.
So far I faced nids 2 times and the only ones that left any kind of impression were Genestealers and Broodlords (Which are INSANE)
Honestly, most of the units in the book are solid. The standouts so far seem to be Trygons, Genestealers, Hormagaunts, and Biovores. I would expect to see at least one of each of those units in any competitive list.
Tyrant Guard with Toxin Sacs and Adrenal Glands
Tyrant Guard with Toxin Sacs and Adrenal Glands
Heavy Support:
Trygon Prime with Toxin Spike
Trygon Prime with Toxin Spike
Trygon Prime with Toxin Spike
Hormies in with the Trygons and GS using Swarmies ability to get up with them asap.
Now if Tyrant Guard have to be in squads of 3+ I'm in trouble, one because I'm out of points and 2 because I need at least 6 units on the board.
Would probably swap them out for 2 10 man squads of Termagants and drop a single Hormagaunt from a squad. I'd use the Termagants to protect the Broodlord and Patriarch once the GS take off
GodDamUser wrote: Do note with that list.. if you are double moving the Genestealers, the Patriarch and Broodlord wont be double moving with them
Yeah they will be with swarmy catching up on turn 2. They should stay relatively free of incoming fire considering what will be knocking the enemy door
nickthewise wrote: Speaking of turn 1 assaults and threat overload... I am thinking of running the following combination:
Trygon Prime + 30 Termagaunts with Devourers
Trygon + 15 Genestealers (can 20 fit without blocking the Trygon?)
Tyrannocyte + Swarmlord
For this set-up Genestealers are almost assured a charge using the Swarmlords ability. The Trygon also have a good chance with adrenal glands. I could spend a command point to re-roll for the Swarmlord to get him in as well. The Gaunts shoot and act as a screen for the Prime, who will try to assault the next turn.
My question is, how would you fill out the rest of the army? I don't have the exact points, but I think the above 6 units come out to around 1350 points. Not a whole lot of leeway in building a 6 unit force to start on the table.
Thoughts / feedback are welcome.
One thing you need to consider, you can only use the swarmlords Power if it's on the table, so podding it might cause you "issues"
Siphen wrote: I'm going to ask a somewhat controversial question...Is the Swarmlord actually worth taking?
In my list, I had the Swarmlord come down in a bare bones Tyrannocyte. That's 437 points. For the same cost, you could have THREE Hive Tyrants. And the only thing he really brings to the table is that Hive Commander rule.
Obviously, moving twice is insanely powerful, but is it actually worth the extra ~150 points over a regular Hive Tyrant? (I'm not saying he's bad - just want to spark some discussion)
I would, if only for the str8. He is one of the few (only?) decent high str melee units.
Anything that can take Str x 2 weapons are generally bad, I feel.
Shrieks are 6 more points than warriors for 6 more inches of movement. Is there any reason to take standard warriors unless they are baby sitting biovores/exocrines in the back field?
Lance845 wrote: Shrieks are 6 more points than warriors for 6 more inches of movement. Is there any reason to take standard warriors unless they are baby sitting biovores/exocrines in the back field?
6 points on a 20-25 point model are a lot, and they are not troops.
Lance845 wrote: Shrieks are 6 more points than warriors for 6 more inches of movement. Is there any reason to take standard warriors unless they are baby sitting biovores/exocrines in the back field?
6 points on a 20-25 point model are a lot, and they are not troops.
Who cares if they are Troops in this edition, +6" and Fly is IMMENSE for only 6 points
Troops in this edition are more important than ever, do not underestimate how powerful CPs are.
Fly is good, but shrikes and warriors are melee oriented units. Fly does not allow you to fall back and charge a different target.
nickthewise wrote: Speaking of turn 1 assaults and threat overload... I am thinking of running the following combination:
Trygon Prime + 30 Termagaunts with Devourers
Trygon + 15 Genestealers (can 20 fit without blocking the Trygon?)
Tyrannocyte + Swarmlord
For this set-up Genestealers are almost assured a charge using the Swarmlords ability. The Trygon also have a good chance with adrenal glands. I could spend a command point to re-roll for the Swarmlord to get him in as well. The Gaunts shoot and act as a screen for the Prime, who will try to assault the next turn.
My question is, how would you fill out the rest of the army? I don't have the exact points, but I think the above 6 units come out to around 1350 points. Not a whole lot of leeway in building a 6 unit force to start on the table.
Thoughts / feedback are welcome.
One thing you need to consider, you can only use the swarmlords Power if it's on the table, so podding it might cause you "issues"
Only if you don't bring Swarmy in on turn 1. His ability goes off in the shooting phase
Lance845 wrote: Shrieks are 6 more points than warriors for 6 more inches of movement. Is there any reason to take standard warriors unless they are baby sitting biovores/exocrines in the back field?
I agree on shrikes being fantastic. I'm going to try a brick if 9 with bonesword and deathspitters to run with along two big broods of gargoyles. A flaking force to harass heavy weapon teams and light vehicles.
Spoletta wrote: Troops in this edition are more important than ever, do not underestimate how powerful CPs are.
Fly is good, but shrikes and warriors are melee oriented units. Fly does not allow you to fall back and charge a different target.
You know the Fly keyword lets you charge and move across models as if they were not there?
Lance845 wrote: Shrieks are 6 more points than warriors for 6 more inches of movement. Is there any reason to take standard warriors unless they are baby sitting biovores/exocrines in the back field?
Not really, but they are very efficient at babysitting and the changes to venom cannons mean they have a reasonable chance of doing some damage while the stand around.
Scything talons and devourers + a venom cannon = 70 points for 3. Rending = 85 for 3.
Lance845 wrote: Shrieks are 6 more points than warriors for 6 more inches of movement. Is there any reason to take standard warriors unless they are baby sitting biovores/exocrines in the back field?
I agree on shrikes being fantastic. I'm going to try a brick if 9 with bonesword and deathspitters to run with along two big broods of gargoyles. A flaking force to harass heavy weapon teams and light vehicles.
I have been thinking about a similar unit of warriors in a pod/Trygon to back up a few units of stealers.
I haven't bought warriors recently but I thought I read somewhere they got moved to a 50mm base? With Trygon rules saying all models within the unit must be wholly placed within 3" can you fit more than a single ring of warriors around him after placement?
nickthewise wrote: Speaking of turn 1 assaults and threat overload... I am thinking of running the following combination:
Trygon Prime + 30 Termagaunts with Devourers
Trygon + 15 Genestealers (can 20 fit without blocking the Trygon?)
Tyrannocyte + Swarmlord
For this set-up Genestealers are almost assured a charge using the Swarmlords ability. The Trygon also have a good chance with adrenal glands. I could spend a command point to re-roll for the Swarmlord to get him in as well. The Gaunts shoot and act as a screen for the Prime, who will try to assault the next turn.
My question is, how would you fill out the rest of the army? I don't have the exact points, but I think the above 6 units come out to around 1350 points. Not a whole lot of leeway in building a 6 unit force to start on the table.
Thoughts / feedback are welcome.
One thing you need to consider, you can only use the swarmlords Power if it's on the table, so podding it might cause you "issues"
Only if you don't bring Swarmy in on turn 1. His ability goes off in the shooting phase
Yep, easy to forget and wrong foot yourself so it bears mention.
Hi all, can someone explane me how the new dakkaflyrant work? The double devourer/deathspitter is assoult 3, but i can run 4 of it for 12 shot that's what i understand.
But the new twin-linked rules now say that all tipe of twin weapon now double the number of shot insted of repeat the hit, like the twin assoult cannon, 6 shot, but with twin 12, or some gun of orks that have the rule more dakka ( twin ).
That kind of rules can be applied on double gun of a hive tyrant ? ( sry for bad english )
Nasty wrote: Hi all, can someone explane me how the new dakkaflyrant work? The double devourer/deathspitter is assoult 3, but i can run 4 of it for 12 shot that's what i understand.
But the new twin-linked rules now say that all tipe of twin weapon now double the number of shot insted of repeat the hit, like the twin assoult cannon, 6 shot, but with twin 12, or some gun of orks that have the rule more dakka ( twin ).
That kind of rules can be applied on double gun of a hive tyrant ? ( sry for bad english )
If you max out on devourers or Deathspitters the most shots you can get is 12 (same as before) but now there are no rerolls. So it was a flat out nerf to dakka Flyrants. Fortunately they are better at beating face now.
And they can Smite evry chance they get for some extra Mortal wounds
Automatically Appended Next Post: I've been thinking some. And I think one of the "hidden" ballences in 8th is that Horde armies are very strong But will almost always have to weather an alpha strike. Really any "elite" army that goes second has messed up, and will pay a price.
pinecone77 wrote: And they can Smite evry chance they get for some extra Mortal wounds
Automatically Appended Next Post: I've been thinking some. And I think one of the "hidden" ballences in 8th is that Horde armies are very strong But will almost always have to weather an alpha strike. Really any "elite" army that goes second has messed up, and will pay a price.
That's why the 20 man genestealer unit (with or without toxin sacs) is such an amazing troops unit. One of the best in the game for sure. Goes first, avoids and alpha strike if you Trygon them in....all around awesomeness.
Yep I'm still figuring on using a Brigade, with Two trygons, and Two Mawlocs currently. I won't have a solid idea till I can read the rules without flipping back and forth.
But I Plan on a max of 6 units to drop, and 6 units to DS. I want the on table to take the Alpha, and hold objectives, and the DS force to destroy the enemy. I ams seriously thinking of using GSC+ corrupted Astra Militaria for the on table force, maybe even a Fort of some kind.
I believe so, same as a Transport. So placing a Trygon+ Unit is two drops used. So for set up..."I reserve a Mawloc, I set a Mawloc, I set a Trygon with a Unit, I set a Trygon with a unit, Then "I place unit A Here. so you Should get to counter deploy fairly often, even vs a Elite. GK or the like might well have 3 in reserve, 3 on the Table.
pinecone77 wrote: I believe so, same as a Transport. So placing a Trygon+ Unit is two drops used.
By "drops" do you mean to say two deployments? Because transports (and the Trygon) clearly indicate that only one turn of "deployment" is used. Hence my uncertainty.
Do half of my "turns" spent deploying need to be on the board, or does the total number of units in my army on the board need to equal or exceed the total number of units I have in reserves?
Yes, sorry. As I understand it 1/2 Total units must be on the board up to 1/2 saved for DS etc. Going First is "drops" so by placing in a Trygon Tunnel I use two drops so vs a MSU I might still go First because he is still placing after I am done. Transports give a simular advantage.
So if I place a unit of GSC cultists down thats a drop, then I place a transport containing AM, and a Magus that is one drop even though I placed 3 units.
I'm thinking about a list with something along these lines:
Swarmy
2 Broodlords
3 Tyrant Guard
20 Genestealers
20 Genestealers
20 Genestealers
Trygon
Trygon
Trygon
A little one trick pony, but do I need to break up the Tyrant Guard into units of 1 in order to have all 3 units of genestealers deploy in the tunnels? I can't figure out if I have 3 units in reserves or 6 units in reserves since they both "drop" at the same time. I think it's still 6 units in reserves
I think you're right I count 6 units, and three "drops" so you need more units on the Table. (Like spliting the Guards)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
luke1705 wrote: I'm thinking about a list with something along these lines:
Swarmy
2 Broodlords
3 Tyrant Guard
20 Genestealers
20 Genestealers
20 Genestealers
Trygon
Trygon
Trygon
A little one trick pony, but do I need to break up the Tyrant Guard into units of 1 in order to have all 3 units of genestealers deploy in the tunnels? I can't figure out if I have 3 units in reserves or 6 units in reserves since they both "drop" at the same time. I think it's still 6 units in reserves
Persoally I'd likely lose one Trygon, toss in a Mawloc and spend any extra on something that should be 5 in reserve, and 5 on table and all three Guards to keep Swarmy alive.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Swarmy should be able to Psycher the Staeler Brood into T1 strike, and He'll likely be tanking the Alpha in any case.
But MAN do I want to get a broodlord in there somehow...and probably the genestealers lmao. I think I'll probably wind up footslogging 1 unit of genestealers. I mean, if you've got 40 of them in your face turn 1, do you really have time to care about the other 40 coming in on turn 2? I think not
Looks good. But you don't have a screen/bubblewrap. In 8th a Alpha Can be a T1 charge, so you need to blunt having 30x Boyz comming down the pipe. They can even Teleport! Tau will likely have DS Fusion suits for decapitating strikes as well.
That's because I go first They'll have to worry about screening me.
I made a "compromise" list, which is a compromise because it doesn't have as many Tyrant Guard as I'd like, but it does get the 3rd group of genestealers...and if those guys aren't effective "bubble wrap", I don't know what is (I mean ideally, bubble wrap would be less expensive, but you get the idea)
Swarmy
Broodlord
Flyrant w/Scytal, RC 1 Tyrant Guard w/RC, AG
20 genestealers
20 genestealers
20 genestealers
Trygon w/AG Trygon w/AG Exocrine
8 drops at 2k is pretty much always going to go first, barring a seize. Can cast smite 3x and 3 other powers, so that's pretty good. I can honestly say that I think the broodlord & 20 genestealers slogging it up will actually be ignored for the most part, which is spectacular. Plus I can FNP whichever blob of stealers I think needs it the most.
luke1705 wrote: That's because I go first They'll have to worry about screening me.
I made a "compromise" list, which is a compromise because it doesn't have as many Tyrant Guard as I'd like, but it does get the 3rd group of genestealers...and if those guys aren't effective "bubble wrap", I don't know what is (I mean ideally, bubble wrap would be less expensive, but you get the idea)
Swarmy
Broodlord
Flyrant w/Scytal, RC 1 Tyrant Guard w/RC, AG
20 genestealers
20 genestealers
20 genestealers
Trygon w/AG Trygon w/AG Exocrine
8 drops at 2k is pretty much always going to go first, barring a seize. Can cast smite 3x and 3 other powers, so that's pretty good. I can honestly say that I think the broodlord & 20 genestealers slogging it up will actually be ignored for the most part, which is spectacular. Plus I can FNP whichever blob of stealers I think needs it the most.
Well I still have 20 genestealers to assemble, but the 40 gene stealer version of this has been well-driven. Has only lost to custodes...and I made 3 crucial errors that game. I tweaked the most recent version of the 60 stealer list a touch to get a second tyrant guard by ditching 4 stealers from the footslogging squad. It also allowed me to upgrade the flyrant to have 2x scytals, so that's a nice bonus. Feels like a pretty solid base for my competitive Nids list.
Scything talons and devourers + a venom cannon = 70 points for 3. Rending = 85 for 3.
.
I think you've got your points mixed up.
3 Warriors, 2 devourers, 1 venom cannon and 3 scything talons is 77 points
3 Warriors, 3 scything talons and 3 rending claws is 66 points
3 Warriors, 3 rending claws, 2 devourers and 1 venom cannon is 83 points.
Devourers are 4p, Venom Cannon is 9p, scything talons are free an rending claws are 2p
Memory said that devourers were free and I was rounding to even numbers cause I didn't feel like looking it up just to make the point that they are reasonably priced for the backfield synapse role. Should have double checked/said approximately x points instead.
If/when I try running them in that role I'll likely swap between double scything, scything/rending and scything/sword+whip to try out all the melee weapon options ( I love you, cheap internet magnets). My instinct is to throw a melee weapon on them to keep drop pod tacticals off my backfield objectives, but I don't know that that is the threat I should be worried about anymore.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
luke1705 wrote: Well I still have 20 genestealers to assemble, but the 40 gene stealer version of this has been well-driven. Has only lost to custodes...and I made 3 crucial errors that game. I tweaked the most recent version of the 60 stealer list a touch to get a second tyrant guard by ditching 4 stealers from the footslogging squad. It also allowed me to upgrade the flyrant to have 2x scytals, so that's a nice bonus. Feels like a pretty solid base for my competitive Nids list.
I like the build. I would be tempted to drop the Exocrine for Hive Guard. With all the rending you have the Exocrine is going to spend more time shooting at tanks then infantry, and there is not a lot of S8 in the list.
What are your thoughts on deathspitters vs the second scything talons on the Tyrant? I feel like the talons don't bring a whole lot to the Tyrant for how much they cost, but I'm in theoryhammer land and could easily be wrong.
I'am making 15 (3x5) biovores because I think the rock!
I got more succes with mortal wounds spore bombs than charging trygons. A biovore in cover is very difficult to kill because most big damage weapons don't want to shoot at them but rather shoot at the big ones. I combine them with a tyrannocyte + 20 genestealers, 3 flying hive tyrants with deathspitter, 3 mawloc's and 3 warriors for babysitting biovores(synapse). Mawloc's are a great deal for 100+ points and not bad against infantry unit's. Tyrannocyte can always fly out of close combat and shoot another unit and charge again.
If I want a lot of floating spore mines, I just move the biovores and get a -1 to hit and block a particular enemy unit from moving.
A full 'in your face' Tyranid army is still struggling against armies that can successfully block this and every army will have that opportunity. With this much biovores you can simply soften up the target from a save distance and choose to come out of reserves later. The can take out the big gun's or the small guns so that the floating spore mines can be a treat next turn , if the don't got a lot of small arms fire to take them down cheap.
I'am making 15 (3x5) biovores because I think the rock!
I got more succes with mortal wounds spore bombs than charging trygons. A biovore in cover is very difficult to kill because most big damage weapons don't want to shoot at them but rather shoot at the big ones. I combine them with a tyrannocyte + 20 genestealers, 3 flying hive tyrants with deathspitter, 3 mawloc's and 3 warriors for babysitting biovores(synapse). Mawloc's are a great deal for 100+ points and not bad against infantry unit's. Tyrannocyte can always fly out of close combat and shoot another unit and charge again.
If I want a lot of floating spore mines, I just move the biovores and get a -1 to hit and block a particular enemy unit from moving.
A full 'in your face' Tyranid army is still struggling against armies that can successfully block this and every army will have that opportunity. With this much biovores you can simply soften up the target from a save distance and choose to come out of reserves later. The can take out the big gun's or the small guns so that the floating spore mines can be a treat next turn , if the don't got a lot of small arms fire to take them down cheap.
Yes - genius.
Moving the Biovores on purpose to get better odds for a Bomb is a great idea.
I am also fitting in as many Biovores as I can.
Synapse baby sitting may prove to be a problem in the later turns, however... Is it needed?
I'am making 15 (3x5) biovores because I think the rock!
I got more succes with mortal wounds spore bombs than charging trygons. A biovore in cover is very difficult to kill because most big damage weapons don't want to shoot at them but rather shoot at the big ones. I combine them with a tyrannocyte + 20 genestealers, 3 flying hive tyrants with deathspitter, 3 mawloc's and 3 warriors for babysitting biovores(synapse). Mawloc's are a great deal for 100+ points and not bad against infantry unit's. Tyrannocyte can always fly out of close combat and shoot another unit and charge again.
If I want a lot of floating spore mines, I just move the biovores and get a -1 to hit and block a particular enemy unit from moving.
A full 'in your face' Tyranid army is still struggling against armies that can successfully block this and every army will have that opportunity. With this much biovores you can simply soften up the target from a save distance and choose to come out of reserves later. The can take out the big gun's or the small guns so that the floating spore mines can be a treat next turn , if the don't got a lot of small arms fire to take them down cheap.
Yes - genius.
Moving the Biovores on purpose to get better odds for a Bomb is a great idea.
I am also fitting in as many Biovores as I can.
Synapse baby sitting may prove to be a problem in the later turns, however... Is it needed?
No synapse, and the got to shoot the closest enemy unit. Don't want to be forced to do that.
The also got Leadership 5. One dead biovore -> morale test -> 6 result + 1 for dead casualty = 2 models running away = whole unit dead. The really do need synapse when you field multiple model units.
I see a lot of trygon/stealer tunnel lists. I tried it out but was under the impression that after you tunnel up you can't advance meaning that all my charges were at least 9" making it very unlikely I'd make the charges. I failed 6 of 6, 9" charges. Even with AG on the trygons without being able to advance with the stealers its hard to make any charges. Am I correct in assuming you cannot advance when you pop up?
luke1705 wrote: That's because I go first They'll have to worry about screening me.
I made a "compromise" list, which is a compromise because it doesn't have as many Tyrant Guard as I'd like, but it does get the 3rd group of genestealers...and if those guys aren't effective "bubble wrap", I don't know what is (I mean ideally, bubble wrap would be less expensive, but you get the idea)
Swarmy
Broodlord
Flyrant w/Scytal, RC 1 Tyrant Guard w/RC, AG
20 genestealers
20 genestealers
20 genestealers
Trygon w/AG Trygon w/AG Exocrine
8 drops at 2k is pretty much always going to go first, barring a seize. Can cast smite 3x and 3 other powers, so that's pretty good. I can honestly say that I think the broodlord & 20 genestealers slogging it up will actually be ignored for the most part, which is spectacular. Plus I can FNP whichever blob of stealers I think needs it the most.
And this has 7 command points, which I like.
This is very similar to what I was pondering. Only real difference being I didn't have the broodlord, but the more I think about him being an untargetable, synapse/psyker/buff character the more I like him. Hes also generally shredded just about anything he's got into combat in the games I've played with him, and hot damn if you get even 10 Stealers in combat within his buff aura their absolutely devastating. Can't wait to try a more refined version soon.
skycapt44 wrote: I see a lot of trygon/stealer tunnel lists. I tried it out but was under the impression that after you tunnel up you can't advance meaning that all my charges were at least 9" making it very unlikely I'd make the charges. I failed 6 of 6, 9" charges. Even with AG on the trygons without being able to advance with the stealers its hard to make any charges. Am I correct in assuming you cannot advance when you pop up?
You are correct sir. 9" charge (or 8" on the Trygons) is the best you can do. But overwatch comes from the back now, and you can always use a handy CP re-roll on one of the more optimistic rolls (like you rolled a 5 or a 6 on on dice and a 1, 2 or 3 on the other), giving you really good odds with your re-roll. Plus they stay in reserves until they pop up, so even if your opponent goes first, they can't get shot at.
Above all, the ABILITY to have like 80 attacks that rend turn 1 and are great at multi-assaulting is literally meta-shifting. Just a ton better than running up the board.
luke1705 wrote: Well I still have 20 genestealers to assemble, but the 40 gene stealer version of this has been well-driven. Has only lost to custodes...and I made 3 crucial errors that game. I tweaked the most recent version of the 60 stealer list a touch to get a second tyrant guard by ditching 4 stealers from the footslogging squad. It also allowed me to upgrade the flyrant to have 2x scytals, so that's a nice bonus. Feels like a pretty solid base for my competitive Nids list.
I like the build. I would be tempted to drop the Exocrine for Hive Guard. With all the rending you have the Exocrine is going to spend more time shooting at tanks then infantry, and there is not a lot of S8 in the list.
What are your thoughts on deathspitters vs the second scything talons on the Tyrant? I feel like the talons don't bring a whole lot to the Tyrant for how much they cost, but I'm in theoryhammer land and could easily be wrong.
The exocrine is just such a beast. I imagine that the Hive Guard do slightly better per point against vehicles (their intended target) but the exocrine loses less efficiency as he loses wounds, since hive guard actually die as they lose some wounds, and firing twice is just so brutal. Plus, exocrines are better at hunting elite infantry, which my list also struggles a bit with. I find that my rends are often more useful against vehicles, unless they're t8.
That's because I go first They'll have to worry about screening me.
I made a "compromise" list, which is a compromise because it doesn't have as many Tyrant Guard as I'd like, but it does get the 3rd group of genestealers...and if those guys aren't effective "bubble wrap", I don't know what is (I mean ideally, bubble wrap would be less expensive, but you get the idea)
Swarmy
Broodlord
Flyrant w/Scytal, RC 1 Tyrant Guard w/RC, AG
20 genestealers
20 genestealers
20 genestealers
Trygon w/AG Trygon w/AG Exocrine
8 drops at 2k is pretty much always going to go first, barring a seize. Can cast smite 3x and 3 other powers, so that's pretty good. I can honestly say that I think the broodlord & 20 genestealers slogging it up will actually be ignored for the most part, which is spectacular. Plus I can FNP whichever blob of stealers I think needs it the most.
And this has 7 command points, which I like.
This is very similar to what I was pondering. Only real difference being I didn't have the broodlord, but the more I think about him being an untargetable, synapse/psyker/buff character the more I like him. Hes also generally shredded just about anything he's got into combat in the games I've played with him, and hot damn if you get even 10 Stealers in combat within his buff aura their absolutely devastating. Can't wait to try a more refined version soon.
Yeah I'm actually thinking that it's best to bring the broodlord up turn 1 with the swarmlord's ability if you have a squad or two of genestealers podding in. Kind of limits your ability to move up the hive tyrant (in my list) but sometimes those extra attacks will matter. It's nice to have options, is what I'm really saying
Thanks luke for the confirmation. Can swarmlord use his hive commander on himself to double move? In other words, can you pod swarmy down in a Tcyte stay just over 9". Then in shoot phase cast hive commander on swarmy to move within an inch of your enemy to charge it the same turn? Or must it be used on a different unit...Obviously the swarmlord is within 6" of itself and it is a unit so...
Some people think the tyrannocyte move is a point of contention with Swarmy but I don't think the argument that he can't holds any water. Moving himself is great, but if you're going to move him turn 1, I don't think a pod is really necessary. Grab a few tyrant guard and he'll live until turn 2 (when you'll certainly be charging with him)
The haruspex sounds interesting. I don't have one to try (built the exocrine last time around, shockingly)
What I'm really curious to hear about is the Toxicrene...that new-found 3+ armor and general better utility is great!
Of course, none of this "which melee bug is best" will matter when the Dimachaeron's rules come out, hopefully. C'mon Forge World! Take my money!
Uriels_Flame wrote: I am anxious due to the re-write of the Malanthrope of what the DIMACHAERON will look like ...
It's my only other FW bug.
Same for me, I have two Malanthropes and a Dimachaeron. Doing me the significant concern. I mean it's got to be said GW is here to sell models, their top priority is not balanced units. In 7th edition the Malanthrope and Dimachaeron were strong; some solid Tyranid units in a generally underpowered army. Which made everyone buy them! Now it seems their plan to to nerf them below average and make a handful of new units decent. Oh look how that turned out, now everyone has to buy those to keep their head above water. So I don't have high hopes for the Dimachaeron, unfortunately..
It actually seems to me like they're trying to boost the underperforming units and bring the units that were head and shoulders too good into line with the rest of the army. The malanthrope was definitely head and shoulders too good, but I don't think he's bad now. The dimachaeron was decidedly middle of the pack, so I don't think he'll have too many crazy changes (maybe a useful leap rule lol?)
If you want to use the Swarmlord's double move on him, he'll be pretty fine I think (could be said of basically any Tyranid melee gribbly but I want to believe)
Honestly, this must've been what it felt like to be an Eldar player when the 6th Ed book came out. We have no terrible units, and the weakest offerings are totally playable.
I'd argue 40k would be at its absolute best ever if each army had this many options and as much across-the-board playability (which honestly is true as far as I can tell at a glance).
Uriels_Flame wrote: I am anxious due to the re-write of the Malanthrope of what the DIMACHAERON will look like ...
It's my only other FW bug.
Same for me, I have two Malanthropes and a Dimachaeron. Doing me the significant concern. I mean it's got to be said GW is here to sell models, their top priority is not balanced units. In 7th edition the Malanthrope and Dimachaeron were strong; some solid Tyranid units in a generally underpowered army. Which made everyone buy them! Now it seems their plan to to nerf them below average and make a handful of new units decent. Oh look how that turned out, now everyone has to buy those to keep their head above water. So I don't have high hopes for the Dimachaeron, unfortunately..
I will wait before saying the Malanthrope as been nerfed. Is back as a HQ and you can have 3 of them, 9 wounds (cannot be select as target) and Prey Adaptation buff the whole army, not just a unit.
I'm planning on running my Toxicrene this weekend. The thing had got to be the bane of horde units. Between its high volume of cc attacks, and getting to "shoot" the tentacles I'm combat combined with the miasma&acid blood thing is gong to clear boyz by the dozen at least.
Uriels_Flame wrote: I am anxious due to the re-write of the Malanthrope of what the DIMACHAERON will look like ...
It's my only other FW bug.
Same for me, I have two Malanthropes and a Dimachaeron. Doing me the significant concern. I mean it's got to be said GW is here to sell models, their top priority is not balanced units. In 7th edition the Malanthrope and Dimachaeron were strong; some solid Tyranid units in a generally underpowered army. Which made everyone buy them! Now it seems their plan to to nerf them below average and make a handful of new units decent. Oh look how that turned out, now everyone has to buy those to keep their head above water. So I don't have high hopes for the Dimachaeron, unfortunately..
I will wait before saying the Malanthrope as been nerfed. Is back as a HQ and you can have 3 of them, 9 wounds (cannot be select as target) and Prey Adaptation buff the whole army, not just a unit.
We just need to know how to use it well.
I do agree to a point. I have never used a Mal as an HQ, which I may actually like pending on placement and use. I was tempted to buy 2 more but now with the move to HQ I don't feel the need. I do like the feeling I get with the Broodlord though.
skycapt44 wrote: Thanks luke for the confirmation. Can swarmlord use his hive commander on himself to double move? In other words, can you pod swarmy down in a Tcyte stay just over 9". Then in shoot phase cast hive commander on swarmy to move within an inch of your enemy to charge it the same turn? Or must it be used on a different unit...Obviously the swarmlord is within 6" of itself and it is a unit so...
Units coming out of reserves cannot move for the entire turn. Swarmlord hive mind ability let a unit move in the shooting phase just like in the movement phase. This needs a FAQ but I don't think that you can do that.
skycapt44 wrote: Thanks luke for the confirmation. Can swarmlord use his hive commander on himself to double move? In other words, can you pod swarmy down in a Tcyte stay just over 9". Then in shoot phase cast hive commander on swarmy to move within an inch of your enemy to charge it the same turn? Or must it be used on a different unit...Obviously the swarmlord is within 6" of itself and it is a unit so...
Units coming out of reserves cannot move for the entire turn. Swarmlord hive mind ability let a unit move in the shooting phase just like in the movement phase. This needs a FAQ but I don't think that you can do that.
I'm not denying that an FAQ would be helpful, but reserves tell us that we can't move further but can "otherwise act normally in the shooting and assault phases"
Clearly the intent is that you can't move any further "in the movement phase" because otherwise you couldn't charge at all (and clearly the intent is for units to be able to do that - just look at GSC Cult ambush)
I'd appreciate an errata but unless you're going to tell me that units coming in from reserves can't charge at all, I'm not buying no Swarmlord move. Not for one second.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In fact, it's not even implied - that very same paragraph says that you CAN charge, and that you can act normally in the shooting phase.
Totally not buying the no Swarmlord move argument.
We are waiting for the update from Forgeworld which should be coming soon. They've spoiled the Malanthrope, but we have yet to hear about the Dimachaeron.
rollawaythestone wrote: We are waiting for the update from Forgeworld which should be coming soon. They've spoiled the Malanthrope, but we have yet to hear about the Dimachaeron.
They didn't spoil it, ridiculously powerful units got downgraded across the board in every codex even Knights the Malanthrope is now a viable HQ unit which is balanced.
I think the Malanthrope is going to shine in classic walking bugs lists. A Malanthrope walking three pairs of screamer killers up the table is a nasty threat, and it nets you the extra CP.
I even see some justification for running both Malenthrop's and Venomthropes I the same build. Those C-fexes would love to be screened by some big squads on Hormas or 'stealers, who want the Venomthrope bonus and have big enough squads that you can tail some back to the slower Venomthrope.
rollawaythestone wrote: We are waiting for the update from Forgeworld which should be coming soon. They've spoiled the Malanthrope, but we have yet to hear about the Dimachaeron.
They didn't spoil it, ridiculously powerful units got downgraded across the board in every codex even Knights the Malanthrope is now a viable HQ unit which is balanced.
"Spoil" means they have revealed what the rules are - not that they ruined it.
babelfish wrote: I think the Malanthrope is going to shine in classic walking bugs lists. A Malanthrope walking three pairs of screamer killers up the table is a nasty threat, and it nets you the extra CP.
I even see some justification for running both Malenthrop's and Venomthropes I the same build. Those C-fexes would love to be screened by some big squads on Hormas or 'stealers, who want the Venomthrope bonus and have big enough squads that you can tail some back to the slower Venomthrope.
I think we're talking about too big a point investment, eventually. I see it more of an either/or. In most competitive games i've played, or watched thus far, every unit needs to do work. There are already lists emerging that are soooo powerful, and throwing tremendous amounts of long-range shots, with re-rolls, etc... That spending those points in Venoms to save a fractional value in points of infantry, becomes less appealing eventually. Malenthrope w/Old One Eye and CC-Fexes might be a justifiable "death-star" of sorts, though.
Venomthropes are also getting, IMO, their "auto-take" status a little too quickly because they're really only good with Gants. Gaunts and Genestealers will leave them behind sooooo quickly. Its the same reason I think Zoanthropes are in a weird place. I love mortal-wounds, but as Synapse, are we trying to keep them within 18" for Smite/Super-Smite, or held back for Synapse? The roles just don't synergize.
PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCMENT: When I get home from work late tonight I will be removing the images from the OP. Starting tomorrow these are not leaks. According to Dakkas rules we cannot have them on the forum. I will replace them with the dataslates from GWs website or we can move to the other thread. But these images will no longer be posted here by me.
Again, you got roughly 12 hours before these images are gone.
babelfish wrote: I think the Malanthrope is going to shine in classic walking bugs lists. A Malanthrope walking three pairs of screamer killers up the table is a nasty threat, and it nets you the extra CP.
I even see some justification for running both Malenthrop's and Venomthropes I the same build. Those C-fexes would love to be screened by some big squads on Hormas or 'stealers, who want the Venomthrope bonus and have big enough squads that you can tail some back to the slower Venomthrope.
I think we're talking about too big a point investment, eventually. I see it more of an either/or. In most competitive games i've played, or watched thus far, every unit needs to do work. There are already lists emerging that are soooo powerful, and throwing tremendous amounts of long-range shots, with re-rolls, etc... That spending those points in Venoms to save a fractional value in points of infantry, becomes less appealing eventually. Malenthrope w/Old One Eye and CC-Fexes might be a justifiable "death-star" of sorts, though.
Venomthropes are also getting, IMO, their "auto-take" status a little too quickly because they're really only good with Gants. Gaunts and Genestealers will leave them behind sooooo quickly. Its the same reason I think Zoanthropes are in a weird place. I love mortal-wounds, but as Synapse, are we trying to keep them within 18" for Smite/Super-Smite, or held back for Synapse? The roles just don't synergize.
I agree with you on the auto take thing. I think that both coverthropes are more situational than they used to be. I'm also in a throw everything at the wall and see what sticks mindset right now, what with how new the edition is and how so many of our units went from useless to playable.
My mindset towards Zoeys is shifting towards being as aggressive as possible. We have lots of strong options in the fast synapse role to keep frontline guys happy. If I'm going to run units that need a backfield babysitter I like Primes and Tervigons or even Warriors more than Zoenthropes.
So I was looking at Old One Eye's alpha beast rule..
so buffs any friendly Key word <hive fleet> Carnifex
So OOE has both key words.. but Carnifexes, do not have that key word as they have Carnifexes
I think it only specifies that the Carnifex unit needs to have the <Hive Fleet> keyword, as it is the only one bolded, but then again, it also says carnifex units, but not bolded like the keywords usually are.
But yeah, GW really shot themself in the leg with this keyword thing, as they clearly have a hard time staying consistent on using them.
skycapt44 wrote: Thanks luke for the confirmation. Can swarmlord use his hive commander on himself to double move? In other words, can you pod swarmy down in a Tcyte stay just over 9". Then in shoot phase cast hive commander on swarmy to move within an inch of your enemy to charge it the same turn? Or must it be used on a different unit...Obviously the swarmlord is within 6" of itself and it is a unit so...
Units coming out of reserves cannot move for the entire turn. Swarmlord hive mind ability let a unit move in the shooting phase just like in the movement phase. This needs a FAQ but I don't think that you can do that.
I'm not denying that an FAQ would be helpful, but reserves tell us that we can't move further but can "otherwise act normally in the shooting and assault phases"
Clearly the intent is that you can't move any further "in the movement phase" because otherwise you couldn't charge at all (and clearly the intent is for units to be able to do that - just look at GSC Cult ambush)
I'd appreciate an errata but unless you're going to tell me that units coming in from reserves can't charge at all, I'm not buying no Swarmlord move. Not for one second.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In fact, it's not even implied - that very same paragraph says that you CAN charge, and that you can act normally in the shooting phase.
Totally not buying the no Swarmlord move argument.
Yep, it's again the good old: A=B, B=C, but is A also C?..situation. It can be looked at it from both way's but meanwhile I'am not using it that way to avoid discussion. Just make sure to check this with your opponent.
This thing is fast with a 12" move so hopefully we will be able to get that 5++ quite quickly. The think I don't get is the double strength on a roll to wound of a 6, as there is no ID surely it is now irrelevant?
The moment you realize FW sucks even more than GW at writing rules. Leaping is also basically useless. In fact I'm pretty sure that they wanted the claws's ability to be on wound rolls and the talons on hit rolls.
Aside of that, 10 PL so around 200 points, fast attack, fast movement, 14 wounds, 6 attacks hits on 2s, high strength, possible 5++, so not bad at all.
Reading the Deathleaper's "It's After Me!" rule, it appears that if you cannot get within six inches of the chosen character, Deathleaper simply cannot be placed and will die in reserves at the end of turn 3. Do you think this is a typo and he should also have the normal Lictor deployment abilities?
997Turbo wrote: Reading the Deathleaper's "It's After Me!" rule, it appears that if you cannot get within six inches of the chosen character, Deathleaper simply cannot be placed and will die in reserves at the end of turn 3. Do you think this is a typo and he should also have the normal Lictor deployment abilities?
That's an interesting observation, but you don't choose the character the Deathleaper is hunting until after deployment so I don't see it being much of a problem. If they have a character entirely surrounded by other units, don't hunt that character. If, after you pick your prey, they decide to adjust their play style to keep the chosen character surrounded at all times, well, it's a bit anticlimactic but I wouldn't say it's a waste.
997Turbo wrote: Reading the Deathleaper's "It's After Me!" rule, it appears that if you cannot get within six inches of the chosen character, Deathleaper simply cannot be placed and will die in reserves at the end of turn 3. Do you think this is a typo and he should also have the normal Lictor deployment abilities?
That's an interesting observation, but you don't choose the character the Deathleaper is hunting until after deployment so I don't see it being much of a problem. If they have a character entirely surrounded by other units, don't hunt that character. If, after you pick your prey, they decide to adjust their play style to keep the chosen character surrounded at all times, well, it's a bit anticlimactic but I wouldn't say it's a waste.
Yeah, the latter case means they went first and went out of their way to surround the character (and further keep him that way in subsequent turns) which in most cases is likely to be rather disruptive or at the very least distracting to their battle plan. Plus if they make a mistake or lose models during the fight/psyker phase... Pounce.
minyiky wrote: Below is a closer up view of the profile,
This thing is fast with a 12" move so hopefully we will be able to get that 5++ quite quickly. The think I don't get is the double strength on a roll to wound of a 6, as there is no ID surely it is now irrelevant?
Okay so this thing vs a Trygon
Trygon;
- Hits 77% with 6 attacks, 1 attack of 67%
- Wounds on 3's or 4's vs. all but T3
- 12 wounds
- Reasonably quick, excellent deployment.
- Stock D6 damage
- Stock AP -3
- Cheaper by about 20-40pts.
Dima
- Hits on 84%
- Wounds on 2's vs T3,4 5
- Wounds 3's basically everything else
- Stock AP -2
- Stock 1 Damage
- Rending of high AP -4 and D6 damage (so better ap by 1 but same damage, so worse in comparison).
- Access to a native 5++
minyiky wrote: Below is a closer up view of the profile,
This thing is fast with a 12" move so hopefully we will be able to get that 5++ quite quickly. The think I don't get is the double strength on a roll to wound of a 6, as there is no ID surely it is now irrelevant?
Okay so this thing vs a Trygon
Trygon;
- Hits 77% with 6 attacks, 1 attack of 67%
- Wounds on 3's or 4's vs. all but T3
- 12 wounds
- Reasonably quick, excellent deployment.
- Stock D6 damage
- Stock AP -3
- Cheaper by about 20-40pts.
Dima
- Hits on 84%
- Wounds on 2's vs T3,4 5
- Wounds 3's basically everything else
- Stock AP -2
- Stock 1 Damage
- Rending of high AP -4 and D6 damage (so better ap by 1 but same damage, so worse in comparison).
- Access to a native 5++
Thoughts?
Wouldn't you use the stock D3 damage, I cant see a reason to ever use the other weapon even if it is a mistake, to gain any benefit it would have to be against single wound T6 INFANTRY (which correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't now exist).
On to the comparison, the Trygon is slower (after deployment), more fragile and less of a threat in combat, that being said he is a force multiplier which seem awsome in this edition and is garunteed to be effective as he cant be shot before he arrives. The Dimachaeron is about as likely for a turn 1 charge if given onslaught and a 24" deployment distance (12+3.5 leaves you only 8.5 away and so an 8" charge same as a Trygon with AG) which may actually be less due to the new deployment maps this edition.
The Dimachaeron is also one of our only S10 attacks, both melee and shooting, and certainly the only one that hits on a 2, seems like he could reliably cripple, if not kill, the bigger tanks, and only doing D3 damage will actually be good against things like Wave Serpents and Necron's Quantum Shielding. He is also FA as opposed to HS which I would argue is a less contested slot if that was every an issue for detachments.
Color me very surprised. I was expecting the Dimachaeron to be clearly stronger than other options in the nid book. It seems the Trygon wins out IMO, because it has the stock d6 damage and re-rolls 1's.
Ha! Spore mine launchers are the greatest gun for overwatch.
You hit on a 6. Great.
You miss, you place a spore mine within 6" of the enemy but no closer than 3". Now either you just screened your biovores and they cannot make the charge/you get to move and explode them on your turn or they DO make the charge and the spore mines go off anyway at the end of the charge phase because the enemy just charged right up to them to reach your biovores.
Lance845 wrote: Ha! Spore mine launchers are the greatest gun for overwatch.
You hit on a 6. Great.
You miss, you place a spore mine within 6" of the enemy but no closer than 3". Now either you just screened your biovores and they cannot make the charge/you get to move and explode them on your turn or they DO make the charge and the spore mines go off anyway at the end of the charge phase because the enemy just charged right up to them to reach your biovores.
Amazing!
I'am going to field 5x3 biovores and shoot at a particular unit with not a lot of small arms around. If my biovores moved the hit on a 5+ and that means 5 hits and 10 deployed spore mines. Not hard to kill those mines but the still soak op a bunch of shooting that is not directed to my genestealers. I combine them with 3 deathspitter flying hive (smite) and 3 mawloc's. Thats a lot of mortal wounds even for big cheap infantry armies!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but a winged hive tyrant move faster and above terrains and units, but isn't harder to hit than an footslogging tyrant ?
And it can be assaulted by, say, a Tactical squad ?
godardc wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but a winged hive tyrant move faster and above terrains and units, but isn't harder to hit than an footslogging tyrant ?
And it can be assaulted by, say, a Tactical squad ?
True, but with fly it can move out of close combat and shoot and assault again. Compared to other MC's it can also do psychic power mortal wounds and rocks a 5+ inv save.
godardc wrote: I overlooked the part about moving out of close combat, shooting and, assaulting again. Where is it stated please ?
In the fall back section of movement phase it states that units that fall back may not advance or charge, and may not shoot unless they have the fly keyword. Tyrants with wings may NOT fall back and assault again.
godardc wrote: I overlooked the part about moving out of close combat, shooting and, assaulting again. Where is it stated please ?
In the fall back section of movement phase it states that units that fall back may not advance or charge, and may not shoot unless they have the fly keyword. Tyrants with wings may NOT fall back and assault again.
godardc wrote: I overlooked the part about moving out of close combat, shooting and, assaulting again. Where is it stated please ?
In the fall back section of movement phase it states that units that fall back may not advance or charge, and may not shoot unless they have the fly keyword. Tyrants with wings may NOT fall back and assault again.
Can it Onslaught itself to circumvent that?
Sadly no. Onslaught only mentions overcoming the limit from advancing, which it can't do since it just fell back.
So, I recently lost a game because I couldn't get to his flying shooters that flew ontop of buildings. I had a winged hive tyrant, but he shot it off the table turn 1, Are we really stuck with bringing 3-5 winged hive tyrants again? Or is there something I'm missing. I had shooting, but it wasn't near enough to remove an entire flying tau army.
On an unrelated note, my meta has decided two scything talons only grants +1 attack, Is there any official word on this matter? With that ruling, scything talons seem worthless at their cost on monstrous creatures.
GreaterGood? wrote: So, I recently lost a game because I couldn't get to his flying shooters that flew ontop of buildings. I had a winged hive tyrant, but he shot it off the table turn 1, Are we really stuck with bringing 3-5 winged hive tyrants again? Or is there something I'm missing. I had shooting, but it wasn't near enough to remove an entire flying tau army.
On an unrelated note, my meta has decided two scything talons only grants +1 attack, Is there any official word on this matter? With that ruling, scything talons seem worthless at their cost on monstrous creatures.
What did he have? Have you considered the type of terrain you're bringing? Need to make sure things are accessible.
GreaterGood? wrote: So, I recently lost a game because I couldn't get to his flying shooters that flew ontop of buildings. I had a winged hive tyrant, but he shot it off the table turn 1, Are we really stuck with bringing 3-5 winged hive tyrants again? Or is there something I'm missing. I had shooting, but it wasn't near enough to remove an entire flying tau army.
On an unrelated note, my meta has decided two scything talons only grants +1 attack, Is there any official word on this matter? With that ruling, scything talons seem worthless at their cost on monstrous creatures.
What did he have? Have you considered the type of terrain you're bringing? Need to make sure things are accessible.
Unless your infantry or flying Ruins can't be entered. Most tables contain mostly ruins. It's not the terrain I'm bringing, it's the terrain rules of the new edition. Additionally, all you have to do is stand on the edge of an elevated terrain piece, and infantry can't charge you, since they can't move over you and cant stop within one inch.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoletta wrote: I can't see double scytals giving more than 1 bonus attack. For reference, look at demon prince warp talons. Do they get 6 more attacks?
I don't know that codex, but the Scy tals are quite clear. Gw might not have meant it that way, but it's plain english how it works. As I said before, if that's the way it's going to be ruled, what exactly is the purpose of scytals? 42 points to give a hive tyrant +1` attack... no thanks...
The scytal bonus attack debate needs an FAQ for sure, but I don't think the flying hive tyrant is worthwhile anymore. Even with tyrant guard, they're so fragile (and of course as soon as they outpace the tyrant guard, they did very quickly)
My issue with hive tyrants is that their invuln isn't good enough for what they want to kill. 3 damage means they want to hit vehicles or elite infantry, but they wound the tanks on 5's. the elite infantry often will have an invulnerable save (and even if they don't, the hive tyrant is probably only going to kill 3 a turn).
He just seems far too glass cannon for me with far too little benefit. I think I'm going to stick to a Swarmlord + Broodlord as my only HQ options (and of course OOE if I bring fexes)
luke1705 wrote: The scytal bonus attack debate needs an FAQ for sure, but I don't think the flying hive tyrant is worthwhile anymore. Even with tyrant guard, they're so fragile (and of course as soon as they outpace the tyrant guard, they did very quickly)
My issue with hive tyrants is that their invuln isn't good enough for what they want to kill. 3 damage means they want to hit vehicles or elite infantry, but they wound the tanks on 5's. the elite infantry often will have an invulnerable save (and even if they don't, the hive tyrant is probably only going to kill 3 a turn).
He just seems far too glass cannon for me with far too little benefit. I think I'm going to stick to a Swarmlord + Broodlord as my only HQ options (and of course OOE if I bring fexes)
So, what do you think You'd do against suits, and or flying tanks, etc, that land on top of ruins? I don't see anyway of dealing with them without shooting. Even our combat infantry can't charge them, since they need to physically end within one inch, and even if you roll the extra 6-8 inches to charge up a ruin, You need to fit the model on the same level... I'm super bummed to be honest. After seeing how this plays on the table I don't think Melee armies have a chance.
By the way, played in an 8th ed tournament yesterday with some stealer shock Nids.
My list:
Swarmy
Broodlord
2x Scytals Flyrant
20 Stealers (poison)
20 Stealers
3 Rippers
3 Tyrant Guard
Trygon
Trygon
Exocrine
Went 1-2, beating out a CSM gun line using the new IA rules and 60 screening poxwalkers and losing to Tau drones (literally just drones and commanders) and to a Ynnari list.
Brief overview of each game and my thoughts at the end:
Spoiler:
The Tau game was brutal. Screening units galore that can fly and drones being T4 with 4+ saves is so annoying. Possibly the literal worst matchup conceivable for my army. Would have been tabled on turn 4. I did kill roughly 70 of his drones but it wasn't enough. I also made a mistake and let him go first because he castled so far back that no drones were in range of swarmy and friends (the new hammer and anvil deployment) but he had enough commanders that the last bullet killed swarmy, even through the 3 tyrant guard. This was the first game that made me realize I needed more stealers.
The CSM game saw my Stealers and friends munch through almost all of his 60 poxwalkers on turn 1 because he left typhus in deep strike and failed to seize. He decimated my Stealers on his turn 1 (so many quad bolter shots!) and I wondered if I was going to have enough to finish him off. It was close. My exocrine had his eyes closed the entire tournament, and this match was no exception. In the end, I won pretty handily on kill points, but if the game had had time to go 6 turns, I may have been tabled. Would have been close.
The Ynnari game had a bunch of Harlequin vehicles (which now apparently all get a 4++!?!) driving around harlequins and the Yncarne. These were bubblewrapped by razorwing flocks. I couldn't get a charge off on the Yncarne (he positioned really well) but I was able to murder the flocks turn 1 and put some wounds on a few vehicles (he underestimated the move of the stealers with Swarmy). In the end, he made some extremely hot 4+ invulns on the harlequins (again awesome for them but frustrating to kill) and the tide of the battle turned. At the end, he was able to soulburst and use a harlequin psychic power to get to 2 extra objectives that I thought I would have had (he killed the Swarmlord that previous turn with the unit that should have died to the stealers two turns prior, barring the really good saves. Like it was something like 19 out of 25 4++). Swing the game right then and there, but could have gone either way for sure.
Overall, we need more bodies. I don't know if 60 Stealers is enough, but I think it's where I'll keep my hat. And of course, I'm bringing the Dimachaeron one way or another. Too cool not to and with Swarmy's double move, should handily have a turn 1 charge. This likely means the exocrine has to go, which might be a mistake, but I'll take a slightly worse list if it means I can bring the Dimachaeron. Love that dude.
And to be fair, this was against some extremely tough competition. The Tau player was Justin Cook, who consistently places at/near the top 10 of GTs, and a number of other usual suspects for those honors (John Parsons, Sean Nayden, Nick Nanavati, etc) were present as well. So my list going 1-2 was pretty atypical and more indicative of my mistakes and the caliber of the competition than the list itself I think. And that awful round 1 matchup but hey. Them's the breaks.
luke1705 wrote: The scytal bonus attack debate needs an FAQ for sure, but I don't think the flying hive tyrant is worthwhile anymore. Even with tyrant guard, they're so fragile (and of course as soon as they outpace the tyrant guard, they did very quickly)
My issue with hive tyrants is that their invuln isn't good enough for what they want to kill. 3 damage means they want to hit vehicles or elite infantry, but they wound the tanks on 5's. the elite infantry often will have an invulnerable save (and even if they don't, the hive tyrant is probably only going to kill 3 a turn).
He just seems far too glass cannon for me with far too little benefit. I think I'm going to stick to a Swarmlord + Broodlord as my only HQ options (and of course OOE if I bring fexes)
I'm running 2 winged Hive Tyrants with rending claws, deathspitters, toxins and adrenals. Winged because I like that 16" movement that lets me reach things in the back or in high ground, deathspitters for some ranged firepower that's always useful, but the stars are the rending claws with toxins as they reroll to wound and a roll of 6 is a massive 4 damage ap-6 and there are a few things more satisfying that a Hive Tyrant basically decapitating a Daemon Prince with those claws.
luke1705 wrote: The scytal bonus attack debate needs an FAQ for sure, but I don't think the flying hive tyrant is worthwhile anymore. Even with tyrant guard, they're so fragile (and of course as soon as they outpace the tyrant guard, they did very quickly)
My issue with hive tyrants is that their invuln isn't good enough for what they want to kill. 3 damage means they want to hit vehicles or elite infantry, but they wound the tanks on 5's. the elite infantry often will have an invulnerable save (and even if they don't, the hive tyrant is probably only going to kill 3 a turn).
He just seems far too glass cannon for me with far too little benefit. I think I'm going to stick to a Swarmlord + Broodlord as my only HQ options (and of course OOE if I bring fexes)
So, what do you think You'd do against suits, and or flying tanks, etc, that land on top of ruins? I don't see anyway of dealing with them without shooting. Even our combat infantry can't charge them, since they need to physically end within one inch, and even if you roll the extra 6-8 inches to charge up a ruin, You need to fit the model on the same level... I'm super bummed to be honest. After seeing how this plays on the table I don't think Melee armies have a chance.
If a couple models on the upper levels of a ruin are all you can't deal with in the entire meta, you're going to be ok. Plus, if I'm not mistaken, that may have been FAQ'd. And to be honest, most tournaments don't tend to use multi level ruins as terrain, perhaps for that reason and perhaps because it's just expensive compared to styrofoam.
Tactically, though, treat it like a deathstar that you can't kill. Kill the entire rest of the army. Any objectives they want, they'll have to come to anyhow, whether it's at the end of the game or on turn 1. Almost every tournament makes you place the objectives on the ground floor of multi level ruins IIRC.
I'm running 2 winged Hive Tyrants with rending claws, deathspitters, toxins and adrenals. Winged because I like that 16" movement that lets me reach things in the back or in high ground, deathspitters for some ranged firepower that's always useful, but the stars are the rending claws with toxins as they reroll to wound and a roll of 6 is a massive 4 damage ap-6 and there are a few things more satisfying that a Hive Tyrant basically decapitating a Daemon Prince with those claws.
The discount flyrant with RC and cheap guns is enticing. But any army that relies on me to roll 6's to do well I actively avoid. I am awful at wounding on 6's. Like mathematically subpar over hundreds of rolls. I know it's mostly superstition, but generally I think 6 effects are kind of a mental trap - you hope for 1 every round even if you're only rolling 2 or 3 to wound rolls and you know that you *shouldn't* get one. Even d6 damage rolls like with the Trygon - you're going to roll a 1 just as often as you're going to roll that 6 (barring a re-roll, naturally)
That being said, that might be the best iteration of the Tyrant this edition, but he still feels conflicted. Like you want to take advantage of his ability to wound high T targets like tanks better, and the 6's do help, but you still only wound on 5+. And the elite multi wound infantry that those claws should shred though can do bad bad things to you. Custodes are terrifying.
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rollawaythestone wrote: Color me very surprised. I was expecting the Dimachaeron to be clearly stronger than other options in the nid book. It seems the Trygon wins out IMO, because it has the stock d6 damage and re-rolls 1's.
It is clearly stronger than all other options in the Nid book at killing vehicles.
Huh.. I guess I'm just screwed then. Basicly the only 40k terrain at my local shop is multi level ruins. I had to fight a tau army with literally every model out of charge range. While I controlled the objectives all game, he tabled me on turn 4.
GreaterGood? wrote: Huh.. I guess I'm just screwed then. Basicly the only 40k terrain at my local shop is multi level ruins. I had to fight a tau army with literally every model out of charge range. While I controlled the objectives all game, he tabled me on turn 4.
That's the link to the ITC FAQ from 7th, which applies to multiple GTs, and those are just the ones I've checked. I've never played against a player who complained about just making it into combat if you roll high enough, but I can imagine that there are those people. Thankfully, now you just need to be within 1". So that argument pretty much falls apart since you don't need to be "base to base".
Plus pretty much all of the models that this made a big deal for last edition now have the fly rule, meaning that they can fall back and shoot without penalty (except perhaps moving and firing heavy weapons if that applies). So it's not like you lock them up and condemn them to their death.
But generally, just play maelstrom against that guy. Make him come to the objectives. Any gun line army will be good at eternal war, aka can I table you by turn 5? And bad at turn by turn scoring by comparison
GreaterGood? wrote: Huh.. I guess I'm just screwed then. Basicly the only 40k terrain at my local shop is multi level ruins. I had to fight a tau army with literally every model out of charge range. While I controlled the objectives all game, he tabled me on turn 4.
That's the link to the ITC FAQ from 7th, which applies to multiple GTs, and those are just the ones I've checked. I've never played against a player who complained about just making it into combat if you roll high enough, but I can imagine that there are those people. Thankfully, now you just need to be within 1". So that argument pretty much falls apart since you don't need to be "base to base".
Plus pretty much all of the models that this made a big deal for last edition now have the fly rule, meaning that they can fall back and shoot without penalty (except perhaps moving and firing heavy weapons if that applies). So it's not like you lock them up and condemn them to their death.
But generally, just play maelstrom against that guy. Make him come to the objectives. Any gun line army will be good at eternal war, aka can I table you by turn 5? And bad at turn by turn scoring by comparison
Huh, yeah, that solves the problem... I can guess though that GW isn't ging to officially address the issue then... I'm not sure how I convince everyone at the store to play using these faq's... I'll try though.
GreaterGood? wrote:So, I recently lost a game because I couldn't get to his flying shooters that flew ontop of buildings. I had a winged hive tyrant, but he shot it off the table turn 1, Are we really stuck with bringing 3-5 winged hive tyrants again? Or is there something I'm missing. I had shooting, but it wasn't near enough to remove an entire flying tau army.
On an unrelated note, my meta has decided two scything talons only grants +1 attack, Is there any official word on this matter? With that ruling, scything talons seem worthless at their cost on monstrous creatures.
You pay for the reroll 1's + 1 extra attack and also ap -3 and 3 damage output. Why is this a FAQ issue? It's very clear to me.
luke1705 wrote:The scytal bonus attack debate needs an FAQ for sure, but I don't think the flying hive tyrant is worthwhile anymore. Even with tyrant guard, they're so fragile (and of course as soon as they outpace the tyrant guard, they did very quickly)
My issue with hive tyrants is that their invuln isn't good enough for what they want to kill. 3 damage means they want to hit vehicles or elite infantry, but they wound the tanks on 5's. the elite infantry often will have an invulnerable save (and even if they don't, the hive tyrant is probably only going to kill 3 a turn).
He just seems far too glass cannon for me with far too little benefit. I think I'm going to stick to a Swarmlord + Broodlord as my only HQ options (and of course OOE if I bring fexes)
Everything in the 8th edition can die faster so a hive tyrant is still very resilient for the amount of points. I think the flying hive with deathspitter gives you the best 'all round' Hive tyrant. But you still need synergy within your armylist and you cannot just try to charge with everything and hope for the best.
The warriors will babysit the Biovores and exocrine in the back with the prime and provide cannon support.
The swarmlord, carnifex, shrikes,and gaunts will be my forward melee force with the carnifex and swarmlord to take out bigger tougher targets and the gaunts and shrikes eating up infantry and elite infantry. The shrikes in particular with fly and 12 inch M will be priorety target hunters. 4 attacks each with bone swords doing ap-2 and 2 dmg on a 6. Fleshhooks for some pre charge shooting and shooting in assault if the engagements last more than a turn.
It gives a reason to take crones for sure. We have started using a lot more buildings and a lot less ruins so I haven't run into that specific issue yet.
I also use my Stealers as a hardhitting strike force with the bulk of my army made up of gaunts, which stand a better chance against tactics like those.
I'd either suggest using more natural terrain or invest in some buildings and obstructions and such like shipping containers and barricades. It makes the game more fun for all involved.
luke1705 wrote: By the way, played in an 8th ed tournament yesterday with some stealer shock Nids.
My list:
Swarmy
Broodlord
2x Scytals Flyrant
20 Stealers (poison)
20 Stealers
3 Rippers
3 Tyrant Guard
Trygon
Trygon
Exocrine
Went 1-2, beating out a CSM gun line using the new IA rules and 60 screening poxwalkers and losing to Tau drones (literally just drones and commanders) and to a Ynnari list.
Brief overview of each game and my thoughts at the end:
Spoiler:
The Tau game was brutal. Screening units galore that can fly and drones being T4 with 4+ saves is so annoying. Possibly the literal worst matchup conceivable for my army. Would have been tabled on turn 4. I did kill roughly 70 of his drones but it wasn't enough. I also made a mistake and let him go first because he castled so far back that no drones were in range of swarmy and friends (the new hammer and anvil deployment) but he had enough commanders that the last bullet killed swarmy, even through the 3 tyrant guard. This was the first game that made me realize I needed more stealers.
The CSM game saw my Stealers and friends munch through almost all of his 60 poxwalkers on turn 1 because he left typhus in deep strike and failed to seize. He decimated my Stealers on his turn 1 (so many quad bolter shots!) and I wondered if I was going to have enough to finish him off. It was close. My exocrine had his eyes closed the entire tournament, and this match was no exception. In the end, I won pretty handily on kill points, but if the game had had time to go 6 turns, I may have been tabled. Would have been close.
The Ynnari game had a bunch of Harlequin vehicles (which now apparently all get a 4++!?!) driving around harlequins and the Yncarne. These were bubblewrapped by razorwing flocks. I couldn't get a charge off on the Yncarne (he positioned really well) but I was able to murder the flocks turn 1 and put some wounds on a few vehicles (he underestimated the move of the stealers with Swarmy). In the end, he made some extremely hot 4+ invulns on the harlequins (again awesome for them but frustrating to kill) and the tide of the battle turned. At the end, he was able to soulburst and use a harlequin psychic power to get to 2 extra objectives that I thought I would have had (he killed the Swarmlord that previous turn with the unit that should have died to the stealers two turns prior, barring the really good saves. Like it was something like 19 out of 25 4++). Swing the game right then and there, but could have gone either way for sure.
Overall, we need more bodies. I don't know if 60 Stealers is enough, but I think it's where I'll keep my hat. And of course, I'm bringing the Dimachaeron one way or another. Too cool not to and with Swarmy's double move, should handily have a turn 1 charge. This likely means the exocrine has to go, which might be a mistake, but I'll take a slightly worse list if it means I can bring the Dimachaeron. Love that dude.
And to be fair, this was against some extremely tough competition. The Tau player was Justin Cook, who consistently places at/near the top 10 of GTs, and a number of other usual suspects for those honors (John Parsons, Sean Nayden, Nick Nanavati, etc) were present as well. So my list going 1-2 was pretty atypical and more indicative of my mistakes and the caliber of the competition than the list itself I think. And that awful round 1 matchup but hey. Them's the breaks.
My first game of 8th I too was tabled by Tau. Gun Drones drones are absolutely rough on us. Precision deployed, quad fusion commanders are gnarly as well. I made some big mistakes because I was super rusty, but I'm not sure that even had I played well I would have faired that much better. And that was before my tau playing friend wised up, realized that Crisis Suits suits are over costed and has since switched to straight commander/drone spam. Despite tau players bemoaning the loss of their Riptides and Crisis Suits (which I would agree are both overcosted) I think it's going to be a very uphill battle for us against a currently optimized Tau list.
I was running Swarmy, 2x Cheapo Rending Claw Flyrants, Broodlord, 2 Carnifex, 60 Stealers, 40ish Gaunts, and Trygon. Definitely think the list will be better with a second Trygon and some Tyrant Guard but I'm only very cautiously optimistic about the prognosis. It's really hard to make the Gun Drones one weakness (must shoot closest unit) work against them when you're a melee army and they pretty much always want to shoot the closest unit.
There aren't too many of the fliers that worry me honestly. Against DE, I might bring a Crone and/or a Harpy but I think there is enough mortal wounds in the Nid army to deal with a flier here and there.
Interesting though, if you look at what Tyranid players are trying:
Diverse lists based around previously unused characters and models. Often melee based, either horde, or Nidzilla, or a mix.
Some have backfield shooting, some have deep strike, some do turn 1 charges, etc.
Lots of diversity and plenty of different playstyles/strategies/models being used.
Tau players are simply spamming drones and commanders.
That may not be the full majority but the kind of player attracted to Tau seems to be a WAAC spammy cheese, uninteractive gunline type of person. Bummer for all the normal Tau players that just want to play a decent game against their opponent :(
I also played two games against Tau yesterday and it was very grim dark on my end. Tau player had a super nasty list and quickly we didn't come up with any sensible solution how Nidz could deal with it. List had 2 stormsurges and commander shadownsun giving them rerolls to hit for two turns. Stormsurges had anti deepstrike system and the one that gives them one more AP to all their weapons. Then he had 5 commanders with various weapons, plasma, missile and fusion. My friend said that commander loadouts may not be optimal as we always try to play wysiwyg Commanders had lots of marker drones to enable destroyer missiles on the stormsurges.
In both games he presumably went first (dont like that rule tbh) as he had less deployments. And by first turn shot most of my important stuff off the field, it was super hard to try and hide from all the shooting he had. Also Nidz shooting is so lackluster that getting through that stormsurge 4+ invul is very hard. I had 6 shock cannons on hive guard that took a big chunk on the second game (15 wounds) but then they all died on the next turn.
What can I say, Tau seems super nasty and I hope Nidz come up with some solution to play against such filth.
TurboPenetrator wrote: I also played two games against Tau yesterday and it was very grim dark on my end. Tau player had a super nasty list and quickly we didn't come up with any sensible solution how Nidz could deal with it. List had 2 stormsurges and commander shadownsun giving them rerolls to hit for two turns. Stormsurges had anti deepstrike system and the one that gives them one more AP to all their weapons. Then he had 5 commanders with various weapons, plasma, missile and fusion. My friend said that commander loadouts may not be optimal as we always try to play wysiwyg Commanders had lots of marker drones to enable destroyer missiles on the stormsurges.
In both games he presumably went first (dont like that rule tbh) as he had less deployments. And by first turn shot most of my important stuff off the field, it was super hard to try and hide from all the shooting he had. Also Nidz shooting is so lackluster that getting through that stormsurge 4+ invul is very hard. I had 6 shock cannons on hive guard that took a big chunk on the second game (15 wounds) but then they all died on the next turn.
What can I say, Tau seems super nasty and I hope Nidz come up with some solution to play against such filth.
TurboPenetrator wrote: I also played two games against Tau yesterday and it was very grim dark on my end. Tau player had a super nasty list and quickly we didn't come up with any sensible solution how Nidz could deal with it. List had 2 stormsurges and commander shadownsun giving them rerolls to hit for two turns. Stormsurges had anti deepstrike system and the one that gives them one more AP to all their weapons. Then he had 5 commanders with various weapons, plasma, missile and fusion. My friend said that commander loadouts may not be optimal as we always try to play wysiwyg Commanders had lots of marker drones to enable destroyer missiles on the stormsurges.
In both games he presumably went first (dont like that rule tbh) as he had less deployments. And by first turn shot most of my important stuff off the field, it was super hard to try and hide from all the shooting he had. Also Nidz shooting is so lackluster that getting through that stormsurge 4+ invul is very hard. I had 6 shock cannons on hive guard that took a big chunk on the second game (15 wounds) but then they all died on the next turn.
What can I say, Tau seems super nasty and I hope Nidz come up with some solution to play against such filth.
What did you have in comparison?
I had swarmy, broodlord, 20 genestealers, venomthropes, 6 hive guard shock cannons, 3 warriors for synapse, 30 gaunts with devilgants and tervigon, trygon, tyrannocyte and a magus.
First game I tried to pod 6 hive guard near him with trygon and warriors for synapse...I failed horribly on hive guard shots and he made good saves. I was at over 12" so charge was impossible then. Genestealers did charge on first turn but go pretty badly gunned down by overwatch with rerolls (I failed mass hypnosis on magus) Tervigon died on first turn when fusion gun commander blasted her away.
2n game Again he was going first and deleted swarmlord and 15 genestealers even with -1 to hit to them... I tried to pod in my gaunts, trygon, tyrannocyte and tervigon again at longer range bacause Tau. I did manage to kill two of his commanders with some smite and bad saves on his part. Hive guard were foot sloggin with venomthropes but again he made some good saves with 4+ invul and only got under 10 mortal wounds through to stormsurge because I had to run and was hitting on 4+.
One thing that we discussed was our terrain. We mainly have GW ruins and some Los blocking terrain but I think not nearly enough. Also Some of the ruins are so high that commanders can easily just go on top of them and be "immune" to charging. I really felt like a shooting gallery because hiding is so hard with large units and monsters.
TurboPenetrator wrote: I also played two games against Tau yesterday and it was very grim dark on my end. Tau player had a super nasty list and quickly we didn't come up with any sensible solution how Nidz could deal with it. List had 2 stormsurges and commander shadownsun giving them rerolls to hit for two turns. Stormsurges had anti deepstrike system and the one that gives them one more AP to all their weapons. Then he had 5 commanders with various weapons, plasma, missile and fusion. My friend said that commander loadouts may not be optimal as we always try to play wysiwyg Commanders had lots of marker drones to enable destroyer missiles on the stormsurges.
In both games he presumably went first (dont like that rule tbh) as he had less deployments. And by first turn shot most of my important stuff off the field, it was super hard to try and hide from all the shooting he had. Also Nidz shooting is so lackluster that getting through that stormsurge 4+ invul is very hard. I had 6 shock cannons on hive guard that took a big chunk on the second game (15 wounds) but then they all died on the next turn.
What can I say, Tau seems super nasty and I hope Nidz come up with some solution to play against such filth.
What did you have in comparison?
I had swarmy, broodlord, 20 genestealers, venomthropes, 6 hive guard shock cannons, 3 warriors for synapse, 30 gaunts with devilgants and tervigon, trygon, tyrannocyte and a magus.
First game I tried to pod 6 hive guard near him with trygon and warriors for synapse...I failed horribly on hive guard shots and he made good saves. I was at over 12" so charge was impossible then. Genestealers did charge on first turn but go pretty badly gunned down by overwatch with rerolls (I failed mass hypnosis on magus) Tervigon died on first turn when fusion gun commander blasted her away.
2n game Again he was going first and deleted swarmlord and 15 genestealers even with -1 to hit to them... I tried to pod in my gaunts, trygon, tyrannocyte and tervigon again at longer range bacause Tau. I did manage to kill two of his commanders with some smite and bad saves on his part. Hive guard were foot sloggin with venomthropes but again he made some good saves with 4+ invul and only got under 10 mortal wounds through to stormsurge because I had to run and was hitting on 4+.
One thing that we discussed was our terrain. We mainly have GW ruins and some Los blocking terrain but I think not nearly enough. Also Some of the ruins are so high that commanders can easily just go on top of them and be "immune" to charging. I really felt like a shooting gallery because hiding is so hard with large units and monsters.
I think you need to ether imbrace the 2nd turn and take units accordingly (ie ether swarm a huge number of separate units or have very few larger units with the rest in reserve/deepstrike) or you need to change up the list a bit. We have access to a gakton of mortal wound sources. Biovores alone can now decimate armies. Harpies,mucilids, sporocites, Psyker shanagins. Screw his invulns. Also Lictors make great disruption units. I think we have the tools to deal with a pair of stormsurges some drones and a blob of suites.
I agree, you gave him a lot of optimum targets for his type of army. Don't underestimate the gaunt swarms with the -1 rend guns. They can dish out some damage in numbers. Also, mortal wounds are something we can saturate our army with which hurts armies that rely on things like that, if they can survive to get range.
I tend to run less monstrous creatures and rely on gaunts to pull a lot of weight as well as hiding characters from attacks. Also, I use mortal wounds to my advantage since vehicles are such tough nuts to crack.
Apologies fin this has been brought up already, but I don't think it has. How many attacks does a Trygon Prime really make in close combat?
It has 6 attacks, a Biostatic Rattle and 3 sets of Massive Scything Talons. It doesn't have to use the rattle, so is free to use all 6 base attacks on the Talons. Now, my question is that the wording on each of those Talons is that if it is armed with two or more sets of these Talons (which it is) then it can make "an extra attack with this weapon".
I read that as 3 extra attacks (all three sets of Talons have that wording). I can simply declare that I am using at least one attack on each set of Talons, and trigger the wording on each set?
That would be a total of 9 attacks with the Talons? If so, that's terrifying!
Patriarch Phyrx wrote: Apologies fin this has been brought up already, but I don't think it has. How many attacks does a Trygon Prime really make in close combat?
It has 6 attacks, a Biostatic Rattle and 3 sets of Massive Scything Talons. It doesn't have to use the rattle, so is free to use all 6 base attacks on the Talons. Now, my question is that the wording on each of those Talons is that if it is armed with two or more sets of these Talons (which it is) then it can make "an extra attack with this weapon".
I read that as 3 extra attacks (all three sets of Talons have that wording). I can simply declare that I am using at least one attack on each set of Talons, and trigger the wording on each set?
That would be a total of 9 attacks with the Talons? If so, that's terrifying!
Your reading is correct. Many however, are arguing that GW made a mistake with the wording and say you only get +1 attack regardless of the number of pairs of scything talons... basicly, it's 40k as usual, You have to convince you local group to let you use the rules as written.
Patriarch Phyrx wrote: Apologies fin this has been brought up already, but I don't think it has. How many attacks does a Trygon Prime really make in close combat?
It has 6 attacks, a Biostatic Rattle and 3 sets of Massive Scything Talons. It doesn't have to use the rattle, so is free to use all 6 base attacks on the Talons. Now, my question is that the wording on each of those Talons is that if it is armed with two or more sets of these Talons (which it is) then it can make "an extra attack with this weapon".
I read that as 3 extra attacks (all three sets of Talons have that wording). I can simply declare that I am using at least one attack on each set of Talons, and trigger the wording on each set?
That would be a total of 9 attacks with the Talons? If so, that's terrifying!
Your reading is correct. Many however, are arguing that GW made a mistake with the wording and say you only get +1 attack regardless of the number of pairs of scything talons... basicly, it's 40k as usual, You have to convince you local group to let you use the rules as written.
Jesus people, are we really going to trow common sense out the window and try to use the rules like that? You know perfectly well that it is not how it is meant to be. Also, if you got wargear that say's 'you must use one attack when you fight' then you MUST use one attack with this weapon. There is no reason to use the tail if you got the talons apart from the fact that you MUST use an attack for this.
DoggieDoo wrote: Interesting though, if you look at what Tyranid players are trying:
Diverse lists based around previously unused characters and models. Often melee based, either horde, or Nidzilla, or a mix.
Some have backfield shooting, some have deep strike, some do turn 1 charges, etc.
Lots of diversity and plenty of different playstyles/strategies/models being used.
Tau players are simply spamming drones and commanders.
That may not be the full majority but the kind of player attracted to Tau seems to be a WAAC spammy cheese, uninteractive gunline type of person. Bummer for all the normal Tau players that just want to play a decent game against their opponent :(
Couldn't disagree more.
In 7th ed. Nid players only played flyrant spam, because nothing else worked.
Tau players spammed Riptides because they were able to.
This is not an issue with the "player", but with the ruleset.
I would love to be able to field every unit in my Codex.
I hated how people abused riptide spam and made me look bad when I played 1. This is also the reason Riptides got so extremeley costly.
Us players who just wanted to have an even match with awesome models always suffer because of that.
in 7th we never saw the awesome nids models (exceptions here and there) and nids mostly got stomped hard against tau.
in 8th we will see Commander spam because 3 crisis are not worth 300 points, if a commander can deal more damage for 1/2 the points.
What I'm trying to say is:
Don't blame the players for making the best out of their codex and not bringing certain units.
I am happy for you nids players to be able to play diverse lists and many different strategies. This was able with tau in 7th ed, if you limited yourself (some kroot, some costy transports etc. etc.) and makes the game more fun for both players.
Patriarch Phyrx wrote: Apologies fin this has been brought up already, but I don't think it has. How many attacks does a Trygon Prime really make in close combat?
It has 6 attacks, a Biostatic Rattle and 3 sets of Massive Scything Talons. It doesn't have to use the rattle, so is free to use all 6 base attacks on the Talons. Now, my question is that the wording on each of those Talons is that if it is armed with two or more sets of these Talons (which it is) then it can make "an extra attack with this weapon".
I read that as 3 extra attacks (all three sets of Talons have that wording). I can simply declare that I am using at least one attack on each set of Talons, and trigger the wording on each set?
That would be a total of 9 attacks with the Talons? If so, that's terrifying!
Your reading is correct. Many however, are arguing that GW made a mistake with the wording and say you only get +1 attack regardless of the number of pairs of scything talons... basicly, it's 40k as usual, You have to convince you local group to let you use the rules as written.
Jesus people, are we really going to trow common sense out the window and try to use the rules like that? You know perfectly well that it is not how it is meant to be. Also, if you got wargear that say's 'you must use one attack when you fight' then you MUST use one attack with this weapon. There is no reason to use the tail if you got the talons apart from the fact that you MUST use an attack for this.
OMG...
The rattle doesn't has the "must use one attack when you fight" restriction, so as far as RAW is concerned, his interpretation is correct.
Patriarch Phyrx wrote: Apologies fin this has been brought up already, but I don't think it has. How many attacks does a Trygon Prime really make in close combat?
It has 6 attacks, a Biostatic Rattle and 3 sets of Massive Scything Talons. It doesn't have to use the rattle, so is free to use all 6 base attacks on the Talons. Now, my question is that the wording on each of those Talons is that if it is armed with two or more sets of these Talons (which it is) then it can make "an extra attack with this weapon".
I read that as 3 extra attacks (all three sets of Talons have that wording). I can simply declare that I am using at least one attack on each set of Talons, and trigger the wording on each set?
That would be a total of 9 attacks with the Talons? If so, that's terrifying!
Your reading is correct. Many however, are arguing that GW made a mistake with the wording and say you only get +1 attack regardless of the number of pairs of scything talons... basicly, it's 40k as usual, You have to convince you local group to let you use the rules as written.
Jesus people, are we really going to trow common sense out the window and try to use the rules like that? You know perfectly well that it is not how it is meant to be. Also, if you got wargear that say's 'you must use one attack when you fight' then you MUST use one attack with this weapon. There is no reason to use the tail if you got the talons apart from the fact that you MUST use an attack for this.
OMG...
So... are you saying 9 attacks or 7?
Honestly from the rules as written I cannot tell what GWs intent was. The Trygons are the only creatures that they specify three sets of Talons for (Raveners would have been a candidate too).
Patriarch Phyrx wrote: Apologies fin this has been brought up already, but I don't think it has. How many attacks does a Trygon Prime really make in close combat?
It has 6 attacks, a Biostatic Rattle and 3 sets of Massive Scything Talons. It doesn't have to use the rattle, so is free to use all 6 base attacks on the Talons. Now, my question is that the wording on each of those Talons is that if it is armed with two or more sets of these Talons (which it is) then it can make "an extra attack with this weapon".
I read that as 3 extra attacks (all three sets of Talons have that wording). I can simply declare that I am using at least one attack on each set of Talons, and trigger the wording on each set?
That would be a total of 9 attacks with the Talons? If so, that's terrifying!
Your reading is correct. Many however, are arguing that GW made a mistake with the wording and say you only get +1 attack regardless of the number of pairs of scything talons... basicly, it's 40k as usual, You have to convince you local group to let you use the rules as written.
Jesus people, are we really going to trow common sense out the window and try to use the rules like that? You know perfectly well that it is not how it is meant to be. Also, if you got wargear that say's 'you must use one attack when you fight' then you MUST use one attack with this weapon. There is no reason to use the tail if you got the talons apart from the fact that you MUST use an attack for this.
OMG...
So... are you saying 9 attacks or 7?
Honestly from the rules as written I cannot tell what GWs intent was. The Trygons are the only creatures that they specify three sets of Talons for (Raveners would have been a candidate too).
Let's follow the interpretation of both parties in this argument to conclusion and see what that looks like:
The "Tyranid Points Values" page that lists melee weapons (pg139) lists "Massive Scything Talons (two or more pairs)" with a "points per weapon" cost of 60pts. This seems to indicate that either:
A.) All 3 weapons are considered a 'set', and the set gives a bonus of +1A as indicated on page 141, so you pay 60pts for the set.
B.) Each pair of talons is a separate weapon, and the Trygon has 3 pairs providing +3A. In this case, you need to pay the "Points per weapon" cost of this entry 3 times for a total of 180pts.
I personally think interpretation A. is clearly the intended ruling, and I wouldn't refuse a game against an opponent in the B. column of thought, but by no stretch of logic can you assume you pay one cost for the set of scything talons and somehow it counts as 3 separate pairs of weapons. GW went out of their way to create a separate weapon entry for pairs and sets of talons for the Trygon, Hive Tyrant, and Carnifex for a reason; They give you multiple sets of scything talons at a discounted price for a reason.
Spoletta wrote: RAI i think that we have no doubt that you can't, otherwise:
1) Trygons would be crazy.
2) Demon princes would be crazy.
3) 3 sets of scytals would cost more than 2 sets.
RAW can be discussed, but when you already know which is the intended intepretation, playing lawyer on the RAW is bad sportmanship.
Playing RaW is never bad sportsmanship. Getting on someones case for playing RaW is. Any complaints about doing so should be directed to GW who promised to release erratta so that wouldn't happen anymore.
I'm going to discuss it with my gaming group and will happily go with the majority consensus, not interested in turning my hobby into an argument. Will be very interesting to see which way it is FAQ'd though.
Been checking out Nids lately (not feeling 100% with my current army). What's the consensus been on this edition? From my looking, swarms of Gaunts/Gaunts backed by some Synapse from Tervigons, and then Exocrines and Biovores (and maybe Tyrannocites?) could be a lot of fun, solid shooting with a massive screen.
My group has had no issues with the RAW interpretation. Everyone agrees that there is no reason to give trygons 3 pairs if there were not +3 attacks. We see the price difference because lots of models have unique costs for their special weapons. The trygon cannot choose anything else.
I think RAW is RAI. I will happily change my mind when it gets FAQed.
Spoletta wrote: RAI i think that we have no doubt that you can't, otherwise:
1) Trygons would be crazy.
2) Demon princes would be crazy.
3) 3 sets of scytals would cost more than 2 sets.
RAW can be discussed, but when you already know which is the intended intepretation, playing lawyer on the RAW is bad sportmanship.
Playing RaW is never bad sportsmanship. Getting on someones case for playing RaW is. Any complaints about doing so should be directed to GW who promised to release erratta so that wouldn't happen anymore.
It's good sportsmanship to NOT play the rules in your favour if the interpretation isn't clear.
Best thing about this, is the fact that everybody can choose to play or not play someone. That's why I don't do rule discussions anymore and just ask the TO to provide a good FAQ. No reason to discuss 'lack of common sense'.
Spoletta wrote: RAI i think that we have no doubt that you can't, otherwise:
1) Trygons would be crazy.
2) Demon princes would be crazy.
3) 3 sets of scytals would cost more than 2 sets.
RAW can be discussed, but when you already know which is the intended intepretation, playing lawyer on the RAW is bad sportmanship.
Playing RaW is never bad sportsmanship. Getting on someones case for playing RaW is. Any complaints about doing so should be directed to GW who promised to release erratta so that wouldn't happen anymore.
It's good sportsmanship to NOT play the rules in your favour if the interpretation isn't clear.
Best thing about this, is the fact that everybody can choose to play or not play someone. That's why I don't do rule discussions anymore and just ask the TO to provide a good FAQ. No reason to discuss 'lack of common sense'.
Exactly, so I don't have to play people that think they can make up rules in their head, to change what's written on paper.
DoggieDoo wrote: Interesting though, if you look at what Tyranid players are trying:
Diverse lists based around previously unused characters and models. Often melee based, either horde, or Nidzilla, or a mix.
Some have backfield shooting, some have deep strike, some do turn 1 charges, etc.
Lots of diversity and plenty of different playstyles/strategies/models being used.
Tau players are simply spamming drones and commanders.
That may not be the full majority but the kind of player attracted to Tau seems to be a WAAC spammy cheese, uninteractive gunline type of person. Bummer for all the normal Tau players that just want to play a decent game against their opponent :(
It has nothing to do with WAAC vs. whatever player styles. Tyranid players are trying lots of different builds because the new rules made lots of different builds appear viable/potentially strong. The Tau rules have a clearly apparent strongest build, so lots of people are running it.
In a few months people will have a better understanding of what works, what's commonly seen, and what's needed to counter the common builds. Lists will stabilize around a handful of strong builds, with some factions having more strong builds than others. Fluff players will keep playing the things they like, most players will shift builds towards what works best, and strongly competitive players will min/max as best they can. Same as with every edition change and codec release.
If Tau had as many units go from useless to looking good as 'nids did, we would see the same variety in Tau builds as we see in 'nids.
DoggieDoo wrote: Interesting though, if you look at what Tyranid players are trying:
Diverse lists based around previously unused characters and models. Often melee based, either horde, or Nidzilla, or a mix.
Some have backfield shooting, some have deep strike, some do turn 1 charges, etc.
Lots of diversity and plenty of different playstyles/strategies/models being used.
Tau players are simply spamming drones and commanders.
That may not be the full majority but the kind of player attracted to Tau seems to be a WAAC spammy cheese, uninteractive gunline type of person. Bummer for all the normal Tau players that just want to play a decent game against their opponent :(
Couldn't disagree more.
In 7th ed. Nid players only played flyrant spam, because nothing else worked.
Tau players spammed Riptides because they were able to.
This is not an issue with the "player", but with the ruleset.
I would love to be able to field every unit in my Codex.
I hated how people abused riptide spam and made me look bad when I played 1. This is also the reason Riptides got so extremeley costly.
Us players who just wanted to have an even match with awesome models always suffer because of that.
in 7th we never saw the awesome nids models (exceptions here and there) and nids mostly got stomped hard against tau.
in 8th we will see Commander spam because 3 crisis are not worth 300 points, if a commander can deal more damage for 1/2 the points.
What I'm trying to say is:
Don't blame the players for making the best out of their codex and not bringing certain units.
I am happy for you nids players to be able to play diverse lists and many different strategies. This was able with tau in 7th ed, if you limited yourself (some kroot, some costy transports etc. etc.) and makes the game more fun for both players.
The Tau index has very poor internal point balance and inter-codex point balance. Weapons choices have too much redundancy with most guns dealing Strength 5 no rend or Str 7 -1 rend. The point to damage ratio for most Tau units is pretty bad with just a few gems. Riptides cost 400 points and come with only 3 guns -- two of which are only Strength 5 no rend, making them an ignore option for most opponents. Hammerheads cost 171 points for a gun that isn't much better than a laz cannon and two drones.
Glad I have nids too as right now Tau is a pretty one-dimensional codex.
Tyran wrote: The problem with Tau is that most of its suits, specially the Riptide, are basically unkillable, so they pay a lot of points for that survivability.
They cannot have cost efficient firepower because then they simply would be broken.
The riptide that nova's a 3++ may be "unkillable", but its fire power output is so poor that it can be effectively ignored. I found that the tanks, broadsides, and crisis suits die just fine to anti tank weapons once drones are removed with one's anti-infantry.
Tyran wrote: The problem with Tau is that most of its suits, specially the Riptide, are basically unkillable, so they pay a lot of points for that survivability.
They cannot have cost efficient firepower because then they simply would be broken.
The riptide that nova's a 3++ may be "unkillable", but its fire power output is so poor that it can be effectively ignored. I found that the tanks, broadsides, and crisis suits die just fine to anti tank weapons once drones are removed with one's anti-infantry.
True, although they did get a considerable increase in survivability, and thus in points.
DoggieDoo wrote: Interesting though, if you look at what Tyranid players are trying:
Diverse lists based around previously unused characters and models. Often melee based, either horde, or Nidzilla, or a mix.
Some have backfield shooting, some have deep strike, some do turn 1 charges, etc.
Lots of diversity and plenty of different playstyles/strategies/models being used.
Tau players are simply spamming drones and commanders.
That may not be the full majority but the kind of player attracted to Tau seems to be a WAAC spammy cheese, uninteractive gunline type of person. Bummer for all the normal Tau players that just want to play a decent game against their opponent :(
Couldn't disagree more.
In 7th ed. Nid players only played flyrant spam, because nothing else worked.
Tau players spammed Riptides because they were able to.
This is not an issue with the "player", but with the ruleset.
I would love to be able to field every unit in my Codex.
I hated how people abused riptide spam and made me look bad when I played 1. This is also the reason Riptides got so extremeley costly.
Us players who just wanted to have an even match with awesome models always suffer because of that.
in 7th we never saw the awesome nids models (exceptions here and there) and nids mostly got stomped hard against tau.
in 8th we will see Commander spam because 3 crisis are not worth 300 points, if a commander can deal more damage for 1/2 the points.
What I'm trying to say is:
Don't blame the players for making the best out of their codex and not bringing certain units.
I am happy for you nids players to be able to play diverse lists and many different strategies. This was able with tau in 7th ed, if you limited yourself (some kroot, some costy transports etc. etc.) and makes the game more fun for both players.
As someone who plays both armies I strongly disagree with Tau players generally being WAAC spammy cheese style. I'm finding it very hard to get excited to play my Tau army this edition because of how expensive they've made all of the suits now. They've gotten marginally more survivable but the firepower they put out is piddling for the massive point increase they got. We're seeing Commander and Gun Drone armies because that's the only efficient units that are left in the codex.
I feel like that attitude is the pot calling the kettle black, Tau is finding themselves where Tyranids were last year where the only unit in the codex worth a damn was Flyrants, and those players weren't doing it because they were WAAC cheesy scumbags, they were trying to make their army work with the little tools they were provided. It's not an issue with the players themselves, people will play what is effective out of a codex.
I got my first few games in over the weekend. I didn't follow the main rules leaks as closely as I did the 'nid leaks, so there were a number of rules errors, but it all worked out.
First impressions of 8th: faster, smoother gameplay, not perfect but significantly improved from 7th.
First impressions of various Tyranids:
Exocrines are absurd. I can see exocrine + Biovore firebases being a solid core to a number of builds.
Impaler Cannon Hive Guard are surprisingly decent at killing non horde infantry. I spent the weekend shooting at various Elves, and I got better use thinning out heavy weapons and the like than I did shooting vehicles. Ignoring cover and -2 AP matters a lot in this edition.
Trygons and Hive Tyrants are frail, but it doesn't matter as much as I thought it would because they only need two turns to make an impact on the game.
Scytals are unclear. Need a FAQ. Shogun is right that the most sportsmanly thing to do is to play the route that benefits you the least until they clear things up. While I tend to think that they actually do confer more than just 1 bonus attack, I don't think anyone can truly claim that it is clear beyond confusion.
Tau does need to find some new ways to be Tau. Yeah drone spam (or any kind of spam) is frustrating to play against, and drone spam is especially frustrating for Tyranids, but Tau have generally always been a tough matchup for us. Doesn't mean that Tau players are WAAC any more than Tyranid players - just that their lists have always given us fits.
Maybe the Dimachaeron will solve some problems for us
babelfish wrote: I got my first few games in over the weekend. I didn't follow the main rules leaks as closely as I did the 'nid leaks, so there were a number of rules errors, but it all worked out.
First impressions of 8th: faster, smoother gameplay, not perfect but significantly improved from 7th.
First impressions of various Tyranids:
Exocrines are absurd. I can see exocrine + Biovore firebases being a solid core to a number of builds.
Impaler Cannon Hive Guard are surprisingly decent at killing non horde infantry. I spent the weekend shooting at various Elves, and I got better use thinning out heavy weapons and the like than I did shooting vehicles. Ignoring cover and -2 AP matters a lot in this edition.
Trygons and Hive Tyrants are frail, but it doesn't matter as much as I thought it would because they only need two turns to make an impact on the game.
I want to field an Exocrine now.. I had nearly convinced myself not to
12 shots that hit on 3's and do 2 damage a piece, with a good save mod that can be fired at 2 different units? Best anti-elite infantry tool we've ever had. Wipes up terminators like there's no tomorrow
12 shots that hit on 3's and do 2 damage a piece, with a good save mod that can be fired at 2 different units? Best anti-elite infantry tool we've ever had. Wipes up terminators like there's no tomorrow
Compare this to a Trygon - it gets similar to 12 attacks (every turn, over 2 assault phases). Much shorter ranged but much more mobile (more so first, then some later on).
Gotta get there first. A 36" threat bubble that can't be stopped with a screening unit is different than hoping your opponent doesn't bubble wrap properly.
Also, it's not often that you're going to send the two units against the same targets. D6 and 2 damage might seem comparable (send them after multi wound units with a good armor save) but dedicated assault units with a good save also tend to have a good invulnerable save, and weapons that can deal with a Trygon in CC.
I've found that he's often better for trying to vehicle hunt (they don't hit back so well) or chopping a decently big character like the Yncarne. But he's definitely fragile and it comes down to who swings first a fair amount of the time.
12 shots that hit on 3's and do 2 damage a piece, with a good save mod that can be fired at 2 different units? Best anti-elite infantry tool we've ever had. Wipes up terminators like there's no tomorrow
I play on tables with NOVA line of sight blockers, movement is going to be required to get shots off. I rather have two units of Hive Guard which can hide/ignore cover with similar damage output.
50% of the shots at -2 BS is an outrageous penalty to pay for shifting over a few inches.
Set up with the best sight lines you can and they'll come to you eventually if your positioning is good. No board has THAT much BLOS terrain with 36" range
Just going through the new rules now, been waiting to get into 8th, starting now, just gonna post my thoughts as I go through it
But before I begin, just wow, on Carnifexes
you mean my 6x Dakkafexes just went from 900 points to 580 pts??
Thats a massive improvement
Even with Twin-Linked removed, point for point Dakkafexes now have a (very) slightly more efficient hit rate. Except now for the same amount of points you get 150% the amount of Carnifexes on the field that they have to deal with. And being able to turn into individual units makes them even better. Wasn't expecting buffs to this model, so I'm pleasantly surprised.
They are still not significantly faster than before however, so no matter how strong Claws are I'm thinking that's still a gimmick for killing vehicles.
No more Master of Ambush = no more free wins on a 1/3, but a more reliable Psyker table for Onslaught. However, no more solo Zoanthrope squads. Psykers still look good though. A squad of Zopes in a Pod looks like it's real threat again, but at 300 pts for a roll at D6 mortal wounds anywhere on the field it may or may not be worthwhile. Depends how tanky that profile is actually gonna be for them. Biovores seem a lot better than that (another winner in the new dex).
Exocrine seems strong. That improved range and firepower potential makes them a NICE unit.
Trygon actually works now, and is costed well, even though he only works for troops, that is going to have some great builds. Mawloc seems to hold his role as a big fat cheap disruption unit, and this time with added consistency.
Lictors seem sick and will work nicely in conjunction with anything playing for assault, and will either help win an assault or help catch a unit.
Is it just me or did they manage to make the Tyrannofex even WORSE damn. Looks unbelievably bad now, unless I'm missing something. Oh damn and put the Tervigon right up next to it, although it wasn't even playable before so no change there, at least TFex had a niche tho.
Assault Hive Tyrants seem like they will eat everything alive in combat, I'm unsure of Flyer rules at the moment so not sure if you best off walking them with guards or not. Swarmlord is another winner. Terms/Horms/Stealers/Warriors all seem much better and playable now.
It seems we have the same issue as last dex - all the best stuff is in Heavy Support, and Fast Attack slot is still borderline useless. Is FOC chart manipulation still a thing?
Anyway, give me your feedback on my thoughts, I haven't read through this thread properly at all this is just my initial opinions, tell me where you think I'm right or wrong. Good to see you all again
It seems we have the same issue as last dex - all the best stuff is in Heavy Support, and Fast Attack slot is still borderline useless. Is FOC chart manipulation still a thing?
There are different detachments now, including one that lets you take up to 6 heavy support slots. Of course you have to pay the HQ tax.
SHUPPET wrote: Just going through the new rules now, been waiting to get into 8th, starting now, just gonna post my thoughts as I go through it
Spoiler:
But before I begin, just wow, on Carnifexes
you mean my 6x Dakkafexes just went from 900 points to 580 pts??
Thats a massive improvement
Even with Twin-Linked removed, point for point Dakkafexes now have a (very) slightly more efficient hit rate. Except now for the same amount of points you get 150% the amount of Carnifexes on the field that they have to deal with. And being able to turn into individual units makes them even better. Wasn't expecting buffs to this model, so I'm pleasantly surprised.
They are still not significantly faster than before however, so no matter how strong Claws are I'm thinking that's still a gimmick for killing vehicles.
No more Master of Ambush = no more free wins on a 1/3, but a more reliable Psyker table for Onslaught. However, no more solo Zoanthrope squads. Psykers still look good though. A squad of Zopes in a Pod looks like it's real threat again, but at 300 pts for a roll at D6 mortal wounds anywhere on the field it may or may not be worthwhile. Depends how tanky that profile is actually gonna be for them. Biovores seem a lot better than that (another winner in the new dex).
Exocrine seems strong. That improved range and firepower potential makes them a NICE unit.
Trygon actually works now, and is costed well, even though he only works for troops, that is going to have some great builds.
Mawloc seems to hold his role as a big fat cheap disruption unit, and this time with added consistency.
Lictors seem sick and will work nicely in conjunction with anything playing for assault, and will either help win an assault or help catch a unit.
Is it just me or did they manage to make the Tyrannofex even WORSE damn. Looks unbelievably bad now, unless I'm missing something. Oh damn and put the Tervigon right up next to it, although it wasn't even playable before so no change there, at least TFex had a niche tho.
Assault Hive Tyrants seem like they will eat everything alive in combat, I'm unsure of Flyer rules at the moment so not sure if you best off walking them with guards or not. Swarmlord is another winner.
Terms/Horms/Stealers/Warriors all seem much better and playable now
It seems we have the same issue as last dex - all the best stuff is in Heavy Support, and Fast Attack slot is still borderline useless. Is FOC chart manipulation still a thing?
Anyway, give me your feedback on my thoughts, I haven't read through this thread properly at all this is just my initial opinions, tell me where you think I'm right or wrong. Good to see you all again
Exocrines and Trygons have improved a lot. Carnifexes look good too. 'stealers are really good.
Flying Tyrants are glass cannony. They hit hard and get there fast, but lack durability.
I think the tyranofex is the weakest unit in the codex. I'm going to try to find a way to get value from them next week (I have a pair of magnitized Tervigon/Tyranofex models) but I don't have high hopes. Tervigons will need to be built around. I'm not willing to discount them yet.
Raveners and Crones are underwhelming, but Harpies are good. We don't have much S9 and the ability to hand out that mortal wound is important. Shrikes look like they have potential.
One thing i was thinking about with the T-fex is that 3+ to hit is not too bad, and could use a command point to reroll a miss for the 2 hits, doing 2d6 wounds to a target i think could be pretty... deccent if a bit pricey
I think it is pretty clear that a Monster with two or more scything talons only get +1 A. The text says exactly "with two or more pairs of scything talons".
Overwatch:
Have you recognised that 8 inch flamethrowers are useless for overwatch against deep striking units, which instantly charge? They just have 8 inch and the unit will charge from 9+ inch away!
Tervigon:
Also a nice idea if you really want to bind something in melee to reject shooting: Put a Tervigon in a Tyrannocyte. It has to stay 9+ inch away, but can instantly spawn 10 Termagants. These just have to be within 6 inch of him but do not have to obey the restrictions of the 9 inch from deep strike. So you can put them 3+ inch away from the enemy unit and charge with high probability.
Scytals very clearly give multiple extra attacks RAW. Look at each weapon I.e. each pair. Lets call them pair a b and c
First pair a: qualifier - if you have more than one pair... Has 3, see b and c. Check. Effect: than +1a with this weapon. I.e. +1a that must be made with pair a.
Next pair b: qualifier - if you have more than one pair... Has 3, see a and c. Check. Effect: than +1a with this weapon. I.e. +1a that must be made with pair b.
Last pair c: qualifier - if you have more than one pair... Has 3, see b and a. Check. Effect: than +1a with this weapon. I.e. +1a that must be made with pair c.
Each pair is its own weapon with the same rule. When a hive tyrant buys deathspitters x2 its not 2 guns that shoot 3 times its 2 guns that shoot 3 times EACH.
Just because you buy 2 or 3 pairs together does not mean their weapon profiles combine.
This might not be RAI, and GW are terrible at writing so it is possible they screwed this up. But RAW you get an extra attack for each pair so long as you have more than 1.
I can understand why you get this idea. To me it is clear what the intention of scything talons was.
When you think about it as a programmer, it is also quite clear.
Astmeister wrote: I can understand why you get this idea. To me it is clear what the intention of scything talons was.
When you think about it as a programmer, it is also quite clear.
if Scything Talons > 1
add +1 Attack
Except thats not what it would be as a program.
As a program it would be a series of if/than statements on each weapon.
If ScyTal >1 Than +1 attack with Scytal.
That little script is not on the model. It's on the Scytal.
You need to remember that the rule says "With this weapon". There is huge difference between "If the barer has more than one pair of scything talons, it can make 1 additional attack each time it fights" and "If the barer has more than one pair of scything talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon each time it fights".
The first statement increases your attack characteristic by 1 regardless of the number of pairs you have so long as the number is greater than 1. The second statement has each weapon provide an additional attack with that weapon and thus provides an additional attack for every weapon that has that rule.
You are right. This is however highly complicated to get multiple attacks out of multiple weapons.
The text would be more clear with saying:
For every pair of scything talons beyond the first, make 1 additional Attack with them.
On a sidenote:
In the above caluclation a Carnifex has 6 Attacks with 2 pairs of ST. Could he exchange all of them for Thresher Scythe attacks or does he have to do the "2 additional" attacks with ST?
Carnifex has 4 attacks base. With 2 pairs of ScyTal it would have 1 attack with ScyTal A and 1 attack with ScyTal B and then 4 base attacks to use with whatever weapon/s it wants.
This means those 2 additional attacks reroll 1s to hit (because thats what ScyTal do).
I think it's written that way for 2 reasons 1) hormagaunts get no additional attacks (unlike chainswords which just give an extra attack). 2) It gives you a reason to want multiple sets of Scytal instead of grabbing crushing or rending claws.
It seems we have the same issue as last dex - all the best stuff is in Heavy Support, and Fast Attack slot is still borderline useless. Is FOC chart manipulation still a thing?
There are different detachments now, including one that lets you take up to 6 heavy support slots. Of course you have to pay the HQ tax.
Spearhead detachment looks perfect for us.
Which HQ are you guys looking the look of the most, and why?
And how is AT these days, I hear we are punished a lot less by our lack of high Strength weaponry nowadays?
Lance845 wrote: Carnifex has 4 attacks base. With 2 pairs of ScyTal it would have 1 attack with ScyTal A and 1 attack with ScyTal B and then 4 base attacks to use with whatever weapon/s it wants.
This means those 2 additional attacks reroll 1s to hit (because thats what ScyTal do).
I think it's written that way for 2 reasons 1) hormagaunts get no additional attacks (unlike chainswords which just give an extra attack). 2) It gives you a reason to want multiple sets of Scytal instead of grabbing crushing or rending claws.
Okay. That does not really answer my question, if the Carnifex can also exchange the 2 additional attacks via the ST for the tail attacks.
Hormagants would not get additional attacks from my proposed wording. Also if you calculate a carnifex with 2x ST against one with Crushing Claws, the ST version wins very often even if you just let him have +1 A. If he really has +2 attacks there is almost no reason to take Crushing Claws.
Lance845 wrote: Carnifex has 4 attacks base. With 2 pairs of ScyTal it would have 1 attack with ScyTal A and 1 attack with ScyTal B and then 4 base attacks to use with whatever weapon/s it wants.
This means those 2 additional attacks reroll 1s to hit (because thats what ScyTal do).
I think it's written that way for 2 reasons 1) hormagaunts get no additional attacks (unlike chainswords which just give an extra attack). 2) It gives you a reason to want multiple sets of Scytal instead of grabbing crushing or rending claws.
Okay. That does not really answer my question, if the Carnifex can also exchange the 2 additional attacks via the ST for the tail attacks.
Hormagants would not get additional attacks from my proposed wording. Also if you calculate a carnifex with 2x ST against one with Crushing Claws, the ST version wins very often even if you just let him have +1 A. If he really has +2 attacks there is almost no reason to take Crushing Claws.
1) No. You cannot exchange the extra attacks. The rule specifies you get that attack with that weapon. It has to happen with that weapon.
2) Crushing claws are better against different targets. A fex with crushing claws is str 12. You would wound up to t6 on a 2+ and basically everything else on a 3+. If you can get a bonus to hit (like old one eyes aura) to counter the -1 to hit on the claws they can easily be better than the scytal that would be wounding t6 on a 4+ and everything tougher on a 5+.
There is a good reason to want to pick and choose between claws and scyths.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also your rewrite of the rule does a different thing. Your wording makes it so 2 pairs gives you 1 additional attack and 3 pairs gives you 2.
What they have written gives you 2 additional attacks for 2 pairs and 3 for 3.
Anyone been using a Broodlord as a Warlord in armies without Genestealers? He's a Warlord that can hide, and a Synapse dude that can pop up anywhere he's needed to reinforce control if one dies.
The only other Nid character that can hide is the Prime but I'm not sure if he's that useful.
Tervigon:
Also a nice idea if you really want to bind something in melee to reject shooting: Put a Tervigon in a Tyrannocyte. It has to stay 9+ inch away, but can instantly spawn 10 Termagants. These just have to be within 6 inch of him but do not have to obey the restrictions of the 9 inch from deep strike. So you can put them 3+ inch away from the enemy unit and charge with high probability.
babelfish wrote: Raveners and Crones are underwhelming, but Harpies are good. We don't have much S9 and the ability to hand out that mortal wound is important. Shrikes look like they have potential.
I disagree babelfish, I think Raveners are insanely good. M12, A4, with rending claws, and they can pop up anywhere and fire their deathspitters, (essentially heavy bolters with 18" range). A unit of 6 pumping out 18 ST5, -1....ouch!
Should probably keep the YMDC stuff in YMDC, as important as it is.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Requizen wrote: Anyone been using a Broodlord as a Warlord in armies without Genestealers? He's a Warlord that can hide, and a Synapse dude that can pop up anywhere he's needed to reinforce control if one dies.
The only other Nid character that can hide is the Prime but I'm not sure if he's that useful.
I mean...why would you not use Genestealers?
He is good but I'm still a fan of Swarmy as a warlord. Much more durable so long as you bring his friends to give him some ablative wounds
luke1705 wrote: Should probably keep the YMDC stuff in YMDC, as important as it is.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Requizen wrote: Anyone been using a Broodlord as a Warlord in armies without Genestealers? He's a Warlord that can hide, and a Synapse dude that can pop up anywhere he's needed to reinforce control if one dies.
The only other Nid character that can hide is the Prime but I'm not sure if he's that useful.
I mean...why would you not use Genestealers?
He is good but I'm still a fan of Swarmy as a warlord. Much more durable so long as you bring his friends to give him some ablative wounds
Just getting started, I was looking at getting the Tyranid Swarm box, which has more than enough Troops that I was wondering if I could get by without buying Genestealers. It's a massive savings and also 30% off at my FLGS, so even more massive.
babelfish wrote: Raveners and Crones are underwhelming, but Harpies are good. We don't have much S9 and the ability to hand out that mortal wound is important. Shrikes look like they have potential.
I disagree babelfish, I think Raveners are insanely good. M12, A4, with rending claws, and they can pop up anywhere and fire their deathspitters, (essentially heavy bolters with 18" range). A unit of 6 pumping out 18 ST5, -1....ouch!
Raveners are definitely the cream of the FA slot. 30 pts for what they are is pretty nice. But you are paying a premium for their mobility and their ability to assault. They are 9x S5 shots for 95 pts, Dakkafex is 12xS6 for 95 points. You'd have to run multiple units to make sure enough make it to combat where they can properly win back their points, because they are definitely still glass cannons, one unit arriving by itself will get eaten alive.
babelfish wrote: Raveners and Crones are underwhelming, but Harpies are good. We don't have much S9 and the ability to hand out that mortal wound is important. Shrikes look like they have potential.
I disagree babelfish, I think Raveners are insanely good. M12, A4, with rending claws, and they can pop up anywhere and fire their deathspitters, (essentially heavy bolters with 18" range). A unit of 6 pumping out 18 ST5, -1....ouch!
Raveners are definitely the cream of the FA slot. 30 pts for what they are is pretty nice. But you are paying a premium for their mobility and their ability to assault. They are 9x S5 shots for 95 pts, Dakkafex is 12xS6 for 95 points. You'd have to run multiple units to make sure enough make it to combat where they can properly win back their points, because they are definitely still glass cannons, one unit arriving by itself will get eaten alive.
Yeah but the Carnifex has to walk across the table (I don't think a Mucolid by himself is that good) and can be significantly weakened by multi-damage shooting. Raveners are always guaranteed a shooting phase and maybe charge attempt against anything that doesn't have "Interceptor", which right now is really just Tau, Coteaz, and Deathmarks afaik.
Yeah but the Carnifex has to walk across the table (I don't think a Mucolid by himself is that good) and can be significantly weakened by multi-damage shooting. Raveners are always guaranteed a shooting phase and maybe charge attempt against anything that doesn't have "Interceptor", which right now is really just Tau, Coteaz, and Deathmarks afaik.
I also think that Raveners have potential against horde armies. But I like them at the moment with Spine Fists. They can be shot in CC and also have a high number of shots, while being not as expensive as deathspitters. They just cost very much and I would thus just use them when the Red Horror is also around.
However a Carnifex is not weakened by damage at all.
babelfish wrote: Raveners and Crones are underwhelming, but Harpies are good. We don't have much S9 and the ability to hand out that mortal wound is important. Shrikes look like they have potential.
I disagree babelfish, I think Raveners are insanely good. M12, A4, with rending claws, and they can pop up anywhere and fire their deathspitters, (essentially heavy bolters with 18" range). A unit of 6 pumping out 18 ST5, -1....ouch!
Raveners are definitely the cream of the FA slot. 30 pts for what they are is pretty nice. But you are paying a premium for their mobility and their ability to assault. They are 9x S5 shots for 95 pts, Dakkafex is 12xS6 for 95 points. You'd have to run multiple units to make sure enough make it to combat where they can properly win back their points, because they are definitely still glass cannons, one unit arriving by itself will get eaten alive.
Yeah but the Carnifex has to walk across the table (I don't think a Mucolid by himself is that good) and can be significantly weakened by multi-damage shooting. Raveners are always guaranteed a shooting phase and maybe charge attempt against anything that doesn't have "Interceptor", which right now is really just Tau, Coteaz, and Deathmarks afaik.
by "significantly weakened", i think you mean "not weakened at all" lol, double check the rules =P
as for him walking across the table - yeah, thats exactly what I just said. You are paying a premium for the mobility. The shooting is weaker so you need to use that mobility to get into combat I think, because 100 pts for 4x S5 hits, probably average 2 wounds is not really worth the defensive profile. Gotta put multiple units out there so enough make it in combat to start eating things with 4x attacks. The Deathspitters help them till they there but no mistake they need to use their mobility to get in assault with the ideal units
Automatically Appended Next Post:
lordtaco wrote: One thing i was thinking about with the T-fex is that 3+ to hit is not too bad, and could use a command point to reroll a miss for the 2 hits, doing 2d6 wounds to a target i think could be pretty... deccent if a bit pricey
Swarmlord is in the top 5 8th Edition units, PERIOD, so yeah, no worries there. Swarmlord + Broodlord + at least one bigger unit of Genestealers is almost the auto-take start of every current 'nid list, for very good reason. :-p
I've now logged another four 'Nid games, full 2000pts, for a total of about 10-11, and am definitely loving them and learning a lot.
As other have said, Exocrine is a shooting-battery/work-horse. Even in games where he hasn't performed like a God, my opponents sometimes admitted knowing I would never move him, and thus moving things expressly to avoid his LoS. Even that can be a powerful board-control tool.
The Tyrannofex has steadily dropped in appeal as I have played. His potential seems neat, but the Rupture Cannon version is a Command Point hog as you're always tempting to try to fish for the "good" shots/damage profile. He just keeps under-performing not matter how much I love the model. Tyranids have too many amazing choices right now to settle for any "ok" ones.
Pyrovores have been elevated to situationally fun, but are still not going to be in tons of lists. I think if the tournament community ends up including "sideboards" I might carry three around with me as anti-horde, linebreakers for my 1st turn assaults to sneak through, but at least they aren't terrible right?
Biovores have drastically changed roles and are now some cool board control tech. People haven't fully mined them yet, mark my words, but I now shoot them wanting to miss more often than not, as a way to complicate charges, deepstriking, etc... They're terrific, but very, very different.
Bromsy wrote: I'm considering an army made entirely of malanthropes and carnifexes. Probably not the most efficient, but it'd be fun.
do we have rules for the Malantrhope yet?
They put it up on the Warhammer community page as a preview for the upcoming forgeworld Xenos index.
No point costs, but it has a power level similar to a Hive Tyrant so it will probably end up around the same cost. It is back to being an HQ model again and a monster that comes in broods ala Carnifex.
Requizen wrote: Anyone been using a Broodlord as a Warlord in armies without Genestealers? He's a Warlord that can hide, and a Synapse dude that can pop up anywhere he's needed to reinforce control if one dies.
The only other Nid character that can hide is the Prime but I'm not sure if he's that useful.
I mean...why would you not use Genestealers?
He is good but I'm still a fan of Swarmy as a warlord. Much more durable so long as you bring his friends to give him some ablative wounds
Just getting started, I was looking at getting the Tyranid Swarm box, which has more than enough Troops that I was wondering if I could get by without buying Genestealers. It's a massive savings and also 30% off at my FLGS, so even more massive.
Hormagants are great. They have their pros and cons over genestealers, but I don't think Genestealers are hands down better per point. The carnifex I think you can build as old one eye, but even if not he's a lot cheaper than he used to be. I haven't played with gargoyles yet in the new edition but I think they're going to wind up being a very good tarpit, if nothing else.
Not a huge fan of termagants but they are crazy cheap bodies. I think I'd grab a tervigon but a squad of 30 with 10-15 devourers. It's great because you always choose who dies, so you can always allocate to the stock ones (made even better with the tervigon replenishing those guys!)
All in all, a great value. I thought you meant you didn't want to have genestealers in your army ever and I was horrified
Requizen wrote: Anyone been using a Broodlord as a Warlord in armies without Genestealers? He's a Warlord that can hide, and a Synapse dude that can pop up anywhere he's needed to reinforce control if one dies.
The only other Nid character that can hide is the Prime but I'm not sure if he's that useful.
I mean...why would you not use Genestealers?
He is good but I'm still a fan of Swarmy as a warlord. Much more durable so long as you bring his friends to give him some ablative wounds
Just getting started, I was looking at getting the Tyranid Swarm box, which has more than enough Troops that I was wondering if I could get by without buying Genestealers. It's a massive savings and also 30% off at my FLGS, so even more massive.
Hormagants are great. They have their pros and cons over genestealers, but I don't think Genestealers are hands down better per point. The carnifex I think you can build as old one eye, but even if not he's a lot cheaper than he used to be. I haven't played with gargoyles yet in the new edition but I think they're going to wind up being a very good tarpit, if nothing else.
Not a huge fan of termagants but they are crazy cheap bodies. I think I'd grab a tervigon but a squad of 30 with 10-15 devourers. It's great because you always choose who dies, so you can always allocate to the stock ones (made even better with the tervigon replenishing those guys!)
All in all, a great value. I thought you meant you didn't want to have genestealers in your army ever and I was horrified
Haha yeah I dunno what a final build will look like, but I figure if I can get this super cheap box, might as well build around it if I can. Figure I can slap on 2 Tervigons and 1-2 Exocrines and have a really strong starting point as well.
Has anybody tried putting 30 devouer gaunts in a tunnel yet? 90 S4 shots going into the target of you choice on the turn of your choice seems.....interesting.
babelfish wrote: Has anybody tried putting 30 devouer gaunts in a tunnel yet? 90 S4 shots going into the target of you choice on the turn of your choice seems.....interesting.
Thought about it, but the Mathhammer is a little underwhelming.
Vs. MEQ:
90 × (1/2) to hit × [(1/2) + (1/6)(1/2)] to wound with reroll 1s × (1/3) failed saves = 8.75 dead Marines.
Kinda meh for a 240 pt unit that needs a delivery service.
Eh... if they earn back half their cost in Marines (probably more with losses from morale), and bubble-wrap a Trygon Prime they might be worth more than raw math suggests.
I mean... its not worth outright dismissing. Volume of dice is a thing that can also cause some swingy fluke moments.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Eh... if they earn back half their cost in Marines (probably more with losses from morale), and bubble-wrap a Trygon Prime they might be worth more than raw math suggests.
I mean... its not worth outright dismissing. Volume of dice is a thing that can also cause some swingy fluke moments.
Thing is though, what are you bubble wrapping a Trygon from? They want to get stuck in asap. They're not going to stop even Melta from shooting at it since they have to remain within 3" of the Trygon and can't move further. I'm not saying it's not worth thinking about just that it might fall short of expectations against anything against GEQ.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Eh... if they earn back half their cost in Marines (probably more with losses from morale), and bubble-wrap a Trygon Prime they might be worth more than raw math suggests.
I mean... its not worth outright dismissing. Volume of dice is a thing that can also cause some swingy fluke moments.
Actually a ton of dice means that the results are a lot less swingy. When you roll 3 dice, it's a lot easier to get a statistical outlier (like all 3 of them being 6's) than getting all dice being 6's on 30 dice. Basically, the more dice you roll, the closer you should get to the statistically average result.
I think Gants need to be taken as 1/2 or 2/3 stock to act as ablative wounds for the big guns since you can always remove them last.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Eh... if they earn back half their cost in Marines (probably more with losses from morale), and bubble-wrap a Trygon Prime they might be worth more than raw math suggests.
I mean... its not worth outright dismissing. Volume of dice is a thing that can also cause some swingy fluke moments.
they are like double the price of the Trygon, they are the glassy one that needs protection not the other way around lol and they are glass without the cannon. Which is another word for overcosted for the points
It's been mentioned a few times in various threads that vehicles and monsters have to be 50% obscured to get cover. When I read the leaked rules I didn't see that in the cover rules? Where is that discussed?
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Eh... if they earn back half their cost in Marines (probably more with losses from morale), and bubble-wrap a Trygon Prime they might be worth more than raw math suggests.
I mean... its not worth outright dismissing. Volume of dice is a thing that can also cause some swingy fluke moments.
they are like double the price of the Trygon, they are the glassy one not the other way around lol and they need are glass without the cannon. Which is another word for overcosted for the points
They are only 60 points more costly than the Trygon, and they are our best ranged anti-infantry weapon, only second to Genestealers, but that's because Genestealers are insane.
I am putting together the tyranofex. I have 6 hiveguards, I have no pyrovores.
What weapon do I put on the tyranofex?
Do you have an Exocrine? If you do,not the Rupture Cannon, if you don't then maybe the Rupture Cannon.
Do you have lots of Termagants? If you do, not the Fleshborer Hive, if you don't then maybe the Fleshborer Hive.
Do you intend to run up the field and spray acid all over things? If you do then the Acid Spray.
Yeah the numbers are probably suporting the carnifexes.
The carnifexes has 16 HP 7 T. Tyranofex has 14 HP 8T. I din't know how much that last thoughnes counts for. Both of them diminisher after loosing half their wounds.
That being said MC withouth some form of armour pentration is very bad in this codex. I would probably run carnifexes with scything talons.
Yeah the numbers are probably suporting the carnifexes.
The carnifexes has 16 HP 7 T. Tyranofex has 14 HP 8T. I din't know how much that last thoughnes counts for. Both of them diminisher after loosing half their wounds.
That being said MC withouth some form of armour pentration is very bad in this codex. I would probably run carnifexes with scything talons.
Yes, its not really clear yet. If you're "handy" I strongly suggest using Magnets. That way you can try differant builds, or modify if a new rule gets added later.
Yeah the numbers are probably suporting the carnifexes.
The carnifexes has 16 HP 7 T. Tyranofex has 14 HP 8T. I din't know how much that last thoughnes counts for. Both of them diminisher after loosing half their wounds.
That being said MC withouth some form of armour pentration is very bad in this codex. I would probably run carnifexes with scything talons.
Dakkafexes are only putting out 12 shots each. Not sure where you're getting 48 shots. They can have either 2 or 4 Death Spitters with each Deathspitter putting out 3 shots.
Yeah the numbers are probably suporting the carnifexes.
The carnifexes has 16 HP 7 T. Tyranofex has 14 HP 8T. I din't know how much that last thoughnes counts for. Both of them diminisher after loosing half their wounds.
That being said MC withouth some form of armour pentration is very bad in this codex. I would probably run carnifexes with scything talons.
Oop forget about weapon beast for a minute
drop the bone maces and go for the other and you are even cheaper, but yeah, its only 24x S7 shots with AP1. You could probably run some calcs there to see what actually kills more stuff, but 40x S5 shots isnt bad I guess!
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm going to be testing dual Tyrannofex's with all 3 load outs. I'm curious how effective that Rupture Cannon is, I feel like 2x TFex's both shooting twice a turn are likely to trigger the double hit at least once and maybe tear a hole right through a Knight real quick or something. But I also think 80x S5 shots might be a winner, although 18" range may make that tricky. I feel like ~12 S7 AP-1 hits per every turn of double shooting might be the worst option though.
As a small thing to chew on, a Fortification detachment with 3 Sporocysts with Venom Cannons is only 372 points for three 5D3 S8 AP-1 shots a turn plus any mortal wounds that may be dished out by the spores they spit out. If you space them just so, you can also pretty much cover the entire backfield with synapse with only a single synapse creature committed to powering up their synaptic resonator ability.
Strat_N8 wrote: As a small thing to chew on, a Fortification detachment with 3 Sporocysts with Venom Cannons is only 372 points for three 5D6 S8 AP-1 shots a turn plus any mortal wounds that may be dished out by the spores they spit out. If you space them just so, you can also pretty much cover the entire backfield with synapse with only a single synapse creature committed to powering up their synaptic resonator ability.
Each venom cannon got d3 shots, so thats 15xd3 shots. Thats about 30 shots and 10 hits. A toughness 6/7 MC or vehicle gets about 7 wounds and after a 4+ save you're talking about 3/4 wounds. Meh..
shogun wrote: Each venom cannon got d3 shots, so thats 15xd3 shots. Thats about 30 shots and 10 hits. A toughness 6/7 MC or vehicle gets about 7 wounds and after a 4+ save you're talking about 3/4 wounds. Meh..
Oops... I don't know why I put D6 instead of D3. Fixed it.
Still, might be worth playing around with. That many shots leaves some room for variability and if nothing else they offer a nice 18'' no-go zone via their spore chimney.
Strat_N8 wrote: As a small thing to chew on, a Fortification detachment with 3 Sporocysts with Venom Cannons is only 372 points for three 5D3 S8 AP-1 shots a turn plus any mortal wounds that may be dished out by the spores they spit out. If you space them just so, you can also pretty much cover the entire backfield with synapse with only a single synapse creature committed to powering up their synaptic resonator ability.
Edit: Corrected mistake. I'm tired...
I don't think you need 3 of them, but they are cool anyway. AFAIK the spore mine launchers can be fired for overwatch. When they miss, you can place 3 spore mines just in the path of the charger. Maybe they will not even be able to charge you after that, because the spores are in the way. If they are able, however, they will get into the explosion of the 3 spore mines doing a maximum of 9 Mortal Wounds to them!
A few 2000pts games under my belt, and I feel you have to be lucky and live in an area were Forgeworld (Malanthrope) is allowed in tournaments, if you want to be competitive with a big bugs list. Without cover they die soo easily.
To the same end I want to reiterate what Reece and Frankie are saying - in 8th ed, if you want fun (balanced) games, you NEED 3-4 big LOS blocking terrain pieces. Especially if you play nids.
I have 30 Gargs for screening + 12 Termagaunts if i need them (but the normal gaunts are more for backfield objective camping). Warriors are my midfield synapse for the Gargs, as my Tyrants will rush forward to the enemy lines with Harpies and Crone. Lictors and Mawloc will deepstrike right into the enemy for distraction.
If you ask why the Stranglethorn cannon on the Harpies, i like them. They are more versatile in my opinion (more shots, predictable dmg and +1 to hit if you fire at big blobs, and they wound most things on the same until thougness 7 or higher or thougness 3 or below, were the venom cannon wounds better)
I know i play no genestealers, but i lack the trygon to the deliver them and i only have 16 of them. Alternative option is to play them as GenestealerCult Purestrains, so the get Cultambush and they could be included into the army with no Problem since they have the Tyranid faction keyword (even Tyranidpsypowers work on them as the only mention Tyranid unit).
N.I.B. wrote: A few 2000pts games under my belt, and I feel you have to be lucky and live in an area were Forgeworld (Malanthrope) is allowed in tournaments, if you want to be competitive with a big bugs list. Without cover they die soo easily.
To the same end I want to reiterate what Reece and Frankie are saying - in 8th ed, if you want fun (balanced) games, you NEED 3-4 big LOS blocking terrain pieces. Especially if you play nids.
Could you share with us what kind of list would be competitive in general games? Just horde army oder a mixture? Would you take the medium sized bugs like Hive Guard and Warriors?
I'm thinking about starting up a Tyranid army. I used to run a small Nid army back in 4th. I jumped back in for 8th and made a Necron army, but I feel the swarm calling me back.
What units are currently looking viable? Any that seem useless? Any general consensus on army lists?
I have a few termagaunts and genestealers from a Battle of Macragge set I picked up cheap, and a couple raveners still in blister. What would you guys recommend for some future purchases? I was looking at the Swarm box and the Start Collecting box, but I wasn't sure if Gargoyles are useful or not?
I'm thinking about starting up a Tyranid army. I used to run a small Nid army back in 4th. I jumped back in for 8th and made a Necron army, but I feel the swarm calling me back.
What units are currently looking viable? Any that seem useless? Any general consensus on army lists?
I have a few termagaunts and genestealers from a Battle of Macragge set I picked up cheap, and a couple raveners still in blister. What would you guys recommend for some future purchases? I was looking at the Swarm box and the Start Collecting box, but I wasn't sure if Gargoyles are useful or not?
Everything seems to be viable at the moment to some extend.
My top 5 Units of 8th Edition (not counting in special chars):
- Broodlord
- Genestealers
- Exocrine
- Hive Guard
- Trygon/Alpha-Trygon
I'm thinking about starting up a Tyranid army. I used to run a small Nid army back in 4th. I jumped back in for 8th and made a Necron army, but I feel the swarm calling me back.
What units are currently looking viable? Any that seem useless? Any general consensus on army lists?
I have a few termagaunts and genestealers from a Battle of Macragge set I picked up cheap, and a couple raveners still in blister. What would you guys recommend for some future purchases? I was looking at the Swarm box and the Start Collecting box, but I wasn't sure if Gargoyles are useful or not?
Everything seems to be viable at the moment to some extend.
My top 5 Units of 8th Edition (not counting in special chars):
- Broodlord
- Genestealers
- Exocrine
- Hive Guard
- Trygon/Alpha-Trygon
I'd say (for both Tyr and Cult):
Swarmlord (CQC Powerhouse and his double movement is godlike, needs guards and so he's a bit pricey)
Broodlord (Best HQ by far only second to Swarmy for his buffs mostly)
Genestealers (Best "elite troop accompanied by swarms of gaunts to soak up damage)
Hive Guard (Best shooting unit in our codex by far)
Exocrine (The second MC worth mentioning 'cause the damage is pretty high)
Patriarch (A better Broodlord)
Neophyte (Our best options for Mini lascannons and bodies)
Rockgrinder (Go Incinerator + Demolition Cache)
Primus (His bonuses are really good)
Sentinel (60 pts Lascannon, not bad!)
GreaterGood? wrote: I feel like I'm in crazy town when the carnifex doesn't even make top 5?
at 112 points my carnifexs will block out the sun.
Top 5 say's nothing because it's all about the synergy within the armylist. Carnifex can be cheap but it is still slow and could die fast doing nothing. But 9 carnifexes..hell...that could be a different thing.
You could drop a tyrannocyte with 6 tyrant guard mid field and let 5+ flying hive tyrants move within 3 inch and cast catalyst on the hive guard. Tyrant guard could soak up all wounds and then next turn the flying hive tyrants could go nuts. So does that make flying hive tyrants nr: 1? We will see..
GreaterGood? wrote:I feel like I'm in crazy town when the carnifex doesn't even make top 5?
at 112 points my carnifexs will block out the sun.
People are insane. Top 3 unit in the dex if not the best. I can quote people laughing at me when I said the same thing about Mawloc at the start of 7th Nids, and look how that turned out.
GreaterGood? wrote:I feel like I'm in crazy town when the carnifex doesn't even make top 5?
at 112 points my carnifexs will block out the sun.
People are insane. Top 3 unit in the dex if not the best. I can quote people laughing at me when I said the same thing about Mawloc at the start of 7th Nids, and look how that turned out.
I've tested them in multiple load outs and every time found them very underwhelming. What load-out have you found best?
I'm running my carnifex's with twin scything talons, thresher scythe tail, adrenal glands, and bio plasma.
I'm running a minimum of three in every list. They take WAY more effort to remove than thier points should. I haven't even tried Old One Eye yet. I think With OOE they are an auto include. They can't be ignored, and T7 W8 with a 3+ is way harder to remove than people think.
Once my new order of 5 canifex broods gets in and I build an OOE I'm going to try running them with the crushing claws.
GreaterGood? wrote:I feel like I'm in crazy town when the carnifex doesn't even make top 5?
at 112 points my carnifexs will block out the sun.
People are insane. Top 3 unit in the dex if not the best. I can quote people laughing at me when I said the same thing about Mawloc at the start of 7th Nids, and look how that turned out.
I've tested them in multiple load outs and every time found them very underwhelming. What load-out have you found best?
only had a few of games so far, so to be fair, I haven't tested the entire dex. In this case though I don't feel I need to to know great they are. Running them cheap as possible, max out Devourers . Using it to thicken out the army and add some real weight and dice which they do even better than they did in 7th. currently running 6 because its what I have the models for, might consider 9 although that depends on how well I find Tyrannofex working which I AM currently testing.
I also have found Carnifexes to be underwhelming. Their guns are cheap and they have a lot of wounds considering they don't degrade. They may be one of our best bets for cheap volume of fire, but I don't know....it just doesn't seem nearly as good for the points as many other armies' shooting. It feels like if I'm bringing a Dakkafex to a gunfight, I'm going to not do well.
I do like the scytals carnifex. Give him adrenal glands, stand him next to old one eye and go to town.
Also, previously being a dakkafex still meant something in combat. Now, you're just strength 6 and that's it. I feel like I'd rather do my shooting from less than 1" away
But that probably does bear some discussing - if we HAD to thin out a horde by shooting at it, or just generally wanted decent volume of fire, what would we use?
Biovores are great at killing tough things because of the mortal wounds. Exocrines are great at killing elite infantry and generally anything T7 or less. Hive guard can kill the tougher vehicles.
TBH, maybe this is where we SHOULD ally in GSC. Access to some awesome, AWESOME psychic powers and sadly all of the guns. IG tanks, even neophytes are great for the points. And the GSC tanks are pretty good too. Plus it allows us to have some cult ambush, and I think people are really writing that off too soon. You're going to be able to get a 9" charge a lot more than you think, and sometimes even closer than that.
But if you're set on staying pure Nids (which I respect)....OH WAIT. OF COURSE. The flesh borer hive Tyrannofex. That's 20 hits and like 13 wounds a turn. Not amazing, but pretty durable. And with Forge World and the Barbed Hierodule, it's only going to get better.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
N.I.B. wrote: A few 2000pts games under my belt, and I feel you have to be lucky and live in an area were Forgeworld (Malanthrope) is allowed in tournaments, if you want to be competitive with a big bugs list. Without cover they die soo easily.
To the same end I want to reiterate what Reece and Frankie are saying - in 8th ed, if you want fun (balanced) games, you NEED 3-4 big LOS blocking terrain pieces. Especially if you play nids.
I mean, just look at how terrain placement was in 7th and 6th. They divided the board up into 6 sections and placed D3....D3! pieces in each section.
I think that some people, probably due to just lack of terrain in general, play on boards that have too little coverage. We call those boards "Planet Bowling Ball". It's a shooting gallery, and obviously favors heavy shooting armies (not us). So yes, absolutely play on a table that has at least a few pieces that can BLOS. I'm not saying each piece should block a Hierophant from being seen at all, but some is necessary. I think on a 6 x 4 with average sized pieces of terrain, you should have AT MINIMUM 5 to 9 pieces. How many depends on how large the pieces are. A lot of tournaments will try for 5 to save money and just make each one decently large and have it block LOS.
I've not used a Malanthrope yet (obviously because the points haven't been released and I'm not on that power level kick) but tbh I probably won't. Not being able to be targeted is great. Buffing big units is amazing. But I find that as long as I keep throwing bodies at the opponent (read: Genestealers) they have their hands (and typically their guns) focused on them. Or they're actually in combat. Not too many armies have enough units that can fall back and shoot, or enough units of bubble wrap if you're smart about your pile ins. But the DIMACHAERON. LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT THE BALLADS I WILL WRITE TO HIM/HER/IT. ALL OF THE BALLADS.
Anyway, my point of this post is this: use our best in game closing speed to mitigate how much fire our big guys are taking. If you don't have a unit or three that COULD make a 9" or better charge, I think you're wasting a lot of potential. Especially because some armies just won't bring bubble wrap units. And then you can sink your teeth into the real tasty stuff right away.
Completely agree. A Dakkafex in 8th is garbage in combat, which is a huge loss in utility. Purely shooting you average only 6 hits, most likely wounding on a 3 at best. So 4 wounds at -1 which isn't very impactful. Assault Carnifexes are only strength 6 so the big stuff they want to be going after is likely wounding on 5's. Very meh.
There are more multi wound infantry now though, so the Carnifex does have more utility on that front, especially since almost all multi wound infantry is T5 or below.
luke1705 wrote: I also have found Carnifexes to be underwhelming. Their guns are cheap and they have a lot of wounds considering they don't degrade. They may be one of our best bets for cheap volume of fire, but I don't know....it just doesn't seem nearly as good for the points as many other armies' shooting. It feels like if I'm bringing a Dakkafex to a gunfight, I'm going to not do well.
I do like the scytals carnifex. Give him adrenal glands, stand him next to old one eye and go to town.
Also, previously being a dakkafex still meant something in combat. Now, you're just strength 6 and that's it. I feel like I'd rather do my shooting from less than 1" away
But that probably does bear some discussing - if we HAD to thin out a horde by shooting at it, or just generally wanted decent volume of fire, what would we use?
Biovores are great at killing tough things because of the mortal wounds. Exocrines are great at killing elite infantry and generally anything T7 or less. Hive guard can kill the tougher vehicles.
TBH, maybe this is where we SHOULD ally in GSC. Access to some awesome, AWESOME psychic powers and sadly all of the guns. IG tanks, even neophytes are great for the points. And the GSC tanks are pretty good too. Plus it allows us to have some cult ambush, and I think people are really writing that off too soon. You're going to be able to get a 9" charge a lot more than you think, and sometimes even closer than that.
But if you're set on staying pure Nids (which I respect)....OH WAIT. OF COURSE. The flesh borer hive Tyrannofex. That's 20 hits and like 13 wounds a turn. Not amazing, but pretty durable. And with Forge World and the Barbed Hierodule, it's only going to get better.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
N.I.B. wrote: A few 2000pts games under my belt, and I feel you have to be lucky and live in an area were Forgeworld (Malanthrope) is allowed in tournaments, if you want to be competitive with a big bugs list. Without cover they die soo easily.
To the same end I want to reiterate what Reece and Frankie are saying - in 8th ed, if you want fun (balanced) games, you NEED 3-4 big LOS blocking terrain pieces. Especially if you play nids.
I mean, just look at how terrain placement was in 7th and 6th. They divided the board up into 6 sections and placed D3....D3! pieces in each section.
I think that some people, probably due to just lack of terrain in general, play on boards that have too little coverage. We call those boards "Planet Bowling Ball". It's a shooting gallery, and obviously favors heavy shooting armies (not us). So yes, absolutely play on a table that has at least a few pieces that can BLOS. I'm not saying each piece should block a Hierophant from being seen at all, but some is necessary. I think on a 6 x 4 with average sized pieces of terrain, you should have AT MINIMUM 5 to 9 pieces. How many depends on how large the pieces are. A lot of tournaments will try for 5 to save money and just make each one decently large and have it block LOS.
I've not used a Malanthrope yet (obviously because the points haven't been released and I'm not on that power level kick) but tbh I probably won't. Not being able to be targeted is great. Buffing big units is amazing. But I find that as long as I keep throwing bodies at the opponent (read: Genestealers) they have their hands (and typically their guns) focused on them. Or they're actually in combat. Not too many armies have enough units that can fall back and shoot, or enough units of bubble wrap if you're smart about your pile ins. But the DIMACHAERON. LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT THE BALLADS I WILL WRITE TO HIM/HER/IT. ALL OF THE BALLADS.
Anyway, my point of this post is this: use our best in game closing speed to mitigate how much fire our big guys are taking. If you don't have a unit or three that COULD make a 9" or better charge, I think you're wasting a lot of potential. Especially because some armies just won't bring bubble wrap units. And then you can sink your teeth into the real tasty stuff right away.
Im running 2x 3 strong Dakkafex units, supported by 2x Fleshborer Fex and 2x Exocrines, with a few small Ravener units to help throw gak off them in CC and help control the board. I think the Dakkafex is nice in numbers, 300 points for 24 T7 wounds makes them likely the tankiest unit in the dex point for point except the Mawloc, and it comes with double the wounds per slot so it thickens out the army much more anyway. And en masse, they have the same number of S6 hits as they did last dex point for point - actually, slightly better. They've lost their CC versatility but its whatever, they were bad vs infantry last game and very rarely make to CC against the vehicles of good opponents anyway, it just means that the threat of CC that stopped vehicles coming in close has been removed, but has now been fitted on to other stuff you are taking anyway so its whatever its a nerf to one aspect of them but I'm not expecting to see significant changes to game outcomes there
On the flipside of all this, Broodlords + Genestealers look ridiculous in general. I'll wait to see how capable other armies are of chewing through Genestealers with the removal of blasts and templates before I say which is best in my opinion because they are potentially so great that spending points on other stuff better just be stuff to compliment Stealers in some manner. Dakkafex is definitely legit however, for sure.
Genestealers are hands down the best unit in the Index.
With army construction rules being what they are, I'm afraid that in a competitive sense we might be trading our max Flyrant armies in for max Genestealer armies. Not in a 1850 divided by Flyrant extreme, but in a "every competitive Tyranid army starts with 60-80 Genestealers at a minimum" way.
Noctem wrote: What's the best loadout for Tyrant Guards that are attached to the Swarmlord?
You don't 'attach' to a HT anymore... just be 'near' them to absorb hits
Either way, question remains the same =P
Naked. They're ablative wounds. Why would you buy pricey melee weapons for a unit who is barely intended to live long enough to fight? :-p
Because upgrades are cheap (with the exception of crushing claws).
You can give them adrenal glands and boneswords with lash whips for 3 extra points per model. The adrenals are almost a necessity that lets them keep up with the faster Hive Tyrant and boneswords with lash whips means that each has a -2 melee and if they die in combat (which they will) they still get to attack.
Still on sprue/in box/unassembled
--
1 Hive tyrant/flyrant/Swarmlord
3 Warriors
32 hormagaunts
8 termagant
Was planning on buying around 100$ worth of new toys to augment what I had, but need to pick a direction -- shooty or stabby.
I think shooty is fine. I also think the stabby/shooty paradigm is a fallosy. Most shooty tyranid units are good in combat, and most combat lists need some long distance to stop transports or long range backliners.
997Turbo wrote: Genestealers are hands down the best unit in the Index.
With army construction rules being what they are, I'm afraid that in a competitive sense we might be trading our max Flyrant armies in for max Genestealer armies. Not in a 1850 divided by Flyrant extreme, but in a "every competitive Tyranid army starts with 60-80 Genestealers at a minimum" way.
Yeah, until you face an army with proper bubble wrapping and lots of anti-dude shooting that can clear 20-30 Genestealers in a turn easily. I'm not saying they're bad, but spamming a single unit type in general is never a tournament-winning gameplan.
997Turbo wrote: Genestealers are hands down the best unit in the Index.
With army construction rules being what they are, I'm afraid that in a competitive sense we might be trading our max Flyrant armies in for max Genestealer armies. Not in a 1850 divided by Flyrant extreme, but in a "every competitive Tyranid army starts with 60-80 Genestealers at a minimum" way.
Yeah, until you face an army with proper bubble wrapping and lots of anti-dude shooting that can clear 20-30 Genestealers in a turn easily. I'm not saying they're bad, but spamming a single unit type in general is never a tournament-winning gameplan.
Actually typically spamming amazing units is exactly how you win tournaments. 45 warp spiders won the LVO. The point is that you have a stupid amount of redundancy and your army completely overwhelms the other army. I can absolutely see this happening with Genestealers, although they obviously do need supporting units (as do even the Warp Spiders). Especially for Genestealers, the reason why you need so many (60-80) is exactly because of what Turbo said - any army can bubble wrap and deal with 20-30. So you need to bring more, and you should stagger when the units hit the lines ideally. Not a lot of armies can deal with 40 Genestealers turn 1 AND 40 Genestealers turn 2
997Turbo wrote: Genestealers are hands down the best unit in the Index.
With army construction rules being what they are, I'm afraid that in a competitive sense we might be trading our max Flyrant armies in for max Genestealer armies. Not in a 1850 divided by Flyrant extreme, but in a "every competitive Tyranid army starts with 60-80 Genestealers at a minimum" way.
Yeah, until you face an army with proper bubble wrapping and lots of anti-dude shooting that can clear 20-30 Genestealers in a turn easily. I'm not saying they're bad, but spamming a single unit type in general is never a tournament-winning gameplan.
Agreed. The early days meta has a lot of top players spamming AC Razorbacks with Robooty, or Scion spam... both of which can chew through a one-dimensional list built around modestly pricey t4 models with a 5++ save.
I love GS and think a unit of 15-20 is absolutely auto-include in any current 'Nid list, but going into the 40+ range wound be madness. I was adamant about running two 20-man units when the book dropped, but even now I am finding more tactical wisdom in it being one unit, and then a Hormagaunt unit.
benlac wrote: New to Nids here. Has taking Pyrovores with a Trygon been discussed yet? Puts you within range and guaranteed hits.
You can take Pyrovores with a Tyrannocyte, which I have now tried on three occasions. My verdict is that they are finally far from useless, but they are so far removed from being a top choice that I don't see them getting much competitive play. S5 auto-hits on the drop are nice, and they are decent at removing pesky bubble-wrap, but so are a ton of our other options (such as Barbed Stranglers on the T-cyte itself). T4 doesn't do them any favors, but they're priced appropriately so as to not feel like a terrible choice.
Essentially I would say they are a fun, and playable unit now, but won't be showing up very often.
997Turbo wrote: Genestealers are hands down the best unit in the Index.
With army construction rules being what they are, I'm afraid that in a competitive sense we might be trading our max Flyrant armies in for max Genestealer armies. Not in a 1850 divided by Flyrant extreme, but in a "every competitive Tyranid army starts with 60-80 Genestealers at a minimum" way.
Yeah, until you face an army with proper bubble wrapping and lots of anti-dude shooting that can clear 20-30 Genestealers in a turn easily. I'm not saying they're bad, but spamming a single unit type in general is never a tournament-winning gameplan.
Agreed. The early days meta has a lot of top players spamming AC Razorbacks with Robooty, or Scion spam... both of which can chew through a one-dimensional list built around modestly pricey t4 models with a 5++ save.
I love GS and think a unit of 15-20 is absolutely auto-include in any current 'Nid list, but going into the 40+ range wound be madness. I was adamant about running two 20-man units when the book dropped, but even now I am finding more tactical wisdom in it being one unit, and then a Hormagaunt unit.
Then what are you taking over Genestealers in this case?
Then what are you taking over Genestealers in this case?
That is the real question, and I don't think there's really a good answer for top tier tournament meta.
The issue I see with competitive lists, having played in an 8th edition tournament already, is that we're kind of like the Imperial Knight army of this edition.
In 7th, everyone knew you could run into an Adamantium Lance in any given round, so they made sure that their list could beat Ad Lance. In 8th, every list knows that they'll have the potential to run into a heavy turn 1 assault army (which we are perhaps the worst offender for) so they'll make sure they have sufficient bubble wrap to prevent a turn 1 assault. I think most assault heavy Tyranid lists, if constructed properly, will have no problem going 3-3 or 4-2, or even 5-1 over the course of a 6 round GT if the draws are pretty good. But getting into the top 8 is an entirely different ballgame that I don't know that we have the tools to crack. Would love to be wrong though.
But a 40-60 Genestealer list will overrun most casual lists that aren't prepared for it.
Instead of Stealers, Hormagants are a pretty good second choice. They're cheaper but do less damage per wound. If you want to bring a body that's about half as effective as a Genestealer and costs half as much, they're your unit of choice.
Then what are you taking over Genestealers in this case?
That is the real question, and I don't think there's really a good answer for top tier tournament meta.
The issue I see with competitive lists, having played in an 8th edition tournament already, is that we're kind of like the Imperial Knight army of this edition.
In 7th, everyone knew you could run into an Adamantium Lance in any given round, so they made sure that their list could beat Ad Lance. In 8th, every list knows that they'll have the potential to run into a heavy turn 1 assault army (which we are perhaps the worst offender for) so they'll make sure they have sufficient bubble wrap to prevent a turn 1 assault. I think most assault heavy Tyranid lists, if constructed properly, will have no problem going 3-3 or 4-2, or even 5-1 over the course of a 6 round GT if the draws are pretty good. But getting into the top 8 is an entirely different ballgame that I don't know that we have the tools to crack. Would love to be wrong though.
But a 40-60 Genestealer list will overrun most casual lists that aren't prepared for it.
Instead of Stealers, Hormagants are a pretty good second choice. They're cheaper but do less damage per wound. If you want to bring a body that's about half as effective as a Genestealer and costs half as much, they're your unit of choice.
Yeah I expect that as time goes on, our "best" (tourney) list will be a Hormsgaunt rush to clean bubblewrap followed by a T2, or even 3 DS If that plays out, then Termagant gunlines, backed by Tervagon might be a "thing" as a bubblewrap remover/ VP point sitter.
XXXXXXX(Termagants)........XXXXXXX(Termagants
............ ............ Tervigon(Bubble lets you replenish both units)....
997Turbo wrote: Genestealers are hands down the best unit in the Index.
With army construction rules being what they are, I'm afraid that in a competitive sense we might be trading our max Flyrant armies in for max Genestealer armies. Not in a 1850 divided by Flyrant extreme, but in a "every competitive Tyranid army starts with 60-80 Genestealers at a minimum" way.
Yeah, until you face an army with proper bubble wrapping and lots of anti-dude shooting that can clear 20-30 Genestealers in a turn easily. I'm not saying they're bad, but spamming a single unit type in general is never a tournament-winning gameplan.
Agreed. The early days meta has a lot of top players spamming AC Razorbacks with Robooty, or Scion spam... both of which can chew through a one-dimensional list built around modestly pricey t4 models with a 5++ save.
I love GS and think a unit of 15-20 is absolutely auto-include in any current 'Nid list, but going into the 40+ range wound be madness. I was adamant about running two 20-man units when the book dropped, but even now I am finding more tactical wisdom in it being one unit, and then a Hormagaunt unit.
Then what are you taking over Genestealers in this case?
I'm increasingly liking Hormagaunts as cheap line-breakers. They're fast, cheap, dependable for cutting through the kind of garbage people bubble-wrap with, and importantly they're disposable. You can eat multi-charge over-watch, lose a buttload thanks to Synapse, and then charge in Stealers to actually do quality work.
Also, even though its pricier... I think the 'Nid meta might end up including 30 Gants + Tervigon in the back-field. They take up such a huge volume that they largely turn off deep-strike shenanigans, and 30 bodies, 10 replaced a turn takes an obnoxious amount of shooting to remove from objectives.
I'm not sold on the Tervigon yet. Seems like she will attract a ton of anti-tank weaponry and not last long enough to actually get her points worth. She is one of the more expensive units in our lists as well, so her drawing fire from other things doesn't exactly help.
benlac wrote: New to Nids here. Has taking Pyrovores with a Trygon been discussed yet? Puts you within range and guaranteed hits.
You can take Pyrovores with a Tyrannocyte, which I have now tried on three occasions. My verdict is that they are finally far from useless, but they are so far removed from being a top choice that I don't see them getting much competitive play. S5 auto-hits on the drop are nice, and they are decent at removing pesky bubble-wrap, but so are a ton of our other options (such as Barbed Stranglers on the T-cyte itself). T4 doesn't do them any favors, but they're priced appropriately so as to not feel like a terrible choice.
Essentially I would say they are a fun, and playable unit now, but won't be showing up very often.
Cheers, I didn't catch that.
Also, how many Hormagaunts can fit in 1/2 a 3'' radius of a Trygon? I'm going to guess... 20?
I've got about a dozen games of 8th in at this point, and I really think Tyranids will shine by going mixed arms. Lots of gaunts, plus lots of MC's Mostly combat, but a little shooting mixed in for flyers and the like. Here's a 1750 list I'm thinking of taking to a tournament.
Probably something like that. I have to do a good amount of wrapping around to fit 20 Genestealers who are on 25mm bases though, so even that seems unlikely if your intent is to exclusively use the frontage of a Trygon.
benlac wrote: New to Nids here. Has taking Pyrovores with a Trygon been discussed yet? Puts you within range and guaranteed hits.
You can take Pyrovores with a Tyrannocyte, which I have now tried on three occasions. My verdict is that they are finally far from useless, but they are so far removed from being a top choice that I don't see them getting much competitive play. S5 auto-hits on the drop are nice, and they are decent at removing pesky bubble-wrap, but so are a ton of our other options (such as Barbed Stranglers on the T-cyte itself). T4 doesn't do them any favors, but they're priced appropriately so as to not feel like a terrible choice.
Essentially I would say they are a fun, and playable unit now, but won't be showing up very often.
Cheers, I didn't catch that.
Also, how many Hormagaunts can fit in 1/2 a 3'' radius of a Trygon? I'm going to guess... 20?
GreaterGood? wrote: I've got about a dozen games of 8th in at this point, and I really think Tyranids will shine by going mixed arms. Lots of gaunts, plus lots of MC's Mostly combat, but a little shooting mixed in for flyers and the like. Here's a 1750 list I'm thinking of taking to a tournament.
Tyranid Warriors x6
2x venom cannons, rest scytals and devourers
Heavy Support
Carnifexes x3
All with:
2x Monstrous Scything Talons , Adrenal Glands , Bio- plasma , Thresher Scythe ]
If you're taking that many infantry bodies, Venomthropes are probably well worth it. I don't consider them auto-include, but if you're going that hard on bodies, apparently planning to walk them all up table, you'll appreciate the Venom's bubble.
Then what are you taking over Genestealers in this case?
That is the real question, and I don't think there's really a good answer for top tier tournament meta.
The issue I see with competitive lists, having played in an 8th edition tournament already, is that we're kind of like the Imperial Knight army of this edition.
In 7th, everyone knew you could run into an Adamantium Lance in any given round, so they made sure that their list could beat Ad Lance. In 8th, every list knows that they'll have the potential to run into a heavy turn 1 assault army (which we are perhaps the worst offender for) so they'll make sure they have sufficient bubble wrap to prevent a turn 1 assault. I think most assault heavy Tyranid lists, if constructed properly, will have no problem going 3-3 or 4-2, or even 5-1 over the course of a 6 round GT if the draws are pretty good. But getting into the top 8 is an entirely different ballgame that I don't know that we have the tools to crack. Would love to be wrong though.
But a 40-60 Genestealer list will overrun most casual lists that aren't prepared for it.
Instead of Stealers, Hormagants are a pretty good second choice. They're cheaper but do less damage per wound. If you want to bring a body that's about half as effective as a Genestealer and costs half as much, they're your unit of choice.
I will say, I have found simply forcing the opponent to turtle up in fear of that massive turn 1 assault can be good enough. With proper LOS terrain you can force them to have to stay there while you hide and control the majority of the board. Either they come out behind their screen or they stay and lose the objective battle. I agree overall that Tyranids are kind of a one trick pony. If you can handle genestealers, you can handle Tyranids.
The 50lb gorilla in the room to all this is of course Imperial Guard with mass conscripts and artillery...
Eldar Vampire Hunter wrote: Hey everyone, just got back from taking a brief look at both unreleased indices at Warhammer world. Happy to answer questions about anything I can remember if you guys are interested.
To start with some highlights - the Heirophant is 90 power, 50 wounds, toughness 9. It has two bio-cannons that are S10 AP-2 with six shots each and 2D6 damage. They're also macro weapons, so that damage is doubled vs titanic enemies.
Both Heirodules are T8 22W and around 21 power. I believe the barbed Heirodule has identical guns to the Heirophant except with only 1d6 damage - they might also not be macro, I'm not sure. Don't remember the details of their melee, but they have a special set of scything talons that are called 'gargantuan scything talons' or something similar.
Is there any value to be found in the fortifications? The void shield generators could be useful for the backfield campers like an Exocrine or Biovores but is it way too expensive to get enough value from it? Could hive guard or shooty warriors with a prime in a bastion be a threat? Since they are all unaligned you could easily have a tyranid flavor version of any of them in a battle-forged army.
I'd need more details on Heirodules before I get excited. It would be nice to have a shooty-Knight analog, but if it really is six-shots, 1d6 damage, i'm not sure how excited I am.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: I'd need more details on Heirodules before I get excited. It would be nice to have a shooty-Knight analog, but if it really is six-shots, 1d6 damage, i'm not sure how excited I am.
Well he has two of them, but still only 12 shots. Even if they buff him to hit on 3+ it still seems rather lackluster...I would rather have (3) units of Hive Guard for similar points.
I feel the jury is still out for genestealers, Im not saying they are bad, but with the flexibility of the army now, they are far from an auto include.
Because of the changes to combat and the removal of initiative (a beneficial change) genestealers simply dont have the staying power to survive a first strike, they are still the glass cannons they have always been so basing the strategy of the core of an army around an albeit good, but expensive assault only unit is inherently dangerous. In my games Ive found that even choppa boys are a very serious threat to stealers if they get the charge, or if they spend command points to go before the stealers. I have seen in games a unit of 15 boys with nob EASILY kill 20 stealers on the charge.
I think hormagaunts are interesting as losing a unit of 30 of them is a far less significant hit than losing 20 stealers. But actually I feel one of the real gems in this edition may be warriors. Being both shooty and stabby is very valuable, and multiwound units in a sea of monsters is INCREDIBLY useful, as to actually significantly reduce the combat effectiveness of a warrior unit, means their multi-damage weapons arent shooting your monsters. I can't believe boneswords are only 2 pts per model, and with all of their weapons being assault, they can even advance and fire making their utility incredible. Add in a Cheap prime, and their combat effectiveness goes up dramatically.
Equal points stealers to warriors, the warriors will often, but not always win, but in games against shooty bubble wrapped armies, the warriors will have a much greater chance of being effective as they have shooting up to 36" while still moving and butchering things in assault.
I am surprised that people having talked about our characters more though. 2 auto includes in my lists after playtesting them a bunch are deathleaper and OOE. The red terror CAN be useful in some circumstances, like when they have units with good saves and shooting, but crap combat (like bsides and centurions) but in general, more functions as an amusing distraction. OOE is a frickin beast and one of our best choices to severely cripple a knight in combat (assuming he gets the charge which is often for me, thanks swarmy), and at 140 pts, he is a steal. Deathleaper is exceptional at eliminating pesky low end characters, and it is amazing how often people will forget about him if you wait a turn or 2 to deploy him, and -2 to hit him is no joke...
Anyways, I haven't been this excited about nids since 4th edition and I cant wait to see more tactics, strategies and experiences that people encounter with our bugzeez!!
I like Deathleaper at the moment, but every time I put him in a list I just know I couldn't get away with doing that in a tournament with good players in it.
A competitive 40k player will never let him do what he is meant to do.
Eldarain wrote: Even forcing the conscipt blob to have to absorb the characters instead of having the freedom to chain back to them as they like is a small victory.
Exactly, and I mean you dont HAVE to deploy him that way, remember...he is SUPER fast, with a stock 9" move, you could just deploy him on the board, and run him at them...I usually deploy him last for this very reason
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: I'd need more details on Heirodules before I get excited. It would be nice to have a shooty-Knight analog, but if it really is six-shots, 1d6 damage, i'm not sure how excited I am.
Well he has two of them, but still only 12 shots. Even if they buff him to hit on 3+ it still seems rather lackluster...I would rather have (3) units of Hive Guard for similar points.
Not if those cannons have the macro keyword you won't. 8 hits, 5.3 wounds means 3.5 failed saves if the rend -2 profile is accurate. So if that does d6 damage per hit, that is 12.4 wounds to that knight. Oh wait? It has the TITANIC keyword? Let's straight up double that to 24.8 wounds. How many wounds does your knight have again?
So yeah. If our hierodules can gun down a knight a turn ON AVERAGE SHOOTING, I'm really ok with that. Aren't you?
Automatically Appended Next Post: FYI our hierophant does 19 wounds to a warlord on average. Through his void shields. Who else can do THAT?
Imagine that your opponent has a nice juicy squad of devastator marines with a bunch of missile launchers. You want to kill them in assault. Or shooting, but let's pretend you're focusing on assaulting them. If your opponent can encircle them with his models, you can't assault through his models (well unless you can fly) OOH THAT'S WHY WE NEED GARGOYLES.
So his "bubble wrap" unit, of say regular tactical marines, will protect you from chowing down on his important and expensive guys for a turn. Of course, you can still shoot them. But our assault is what terrifies most people. As it should. So the bubble wrap units just provide more time for their regular guys to live before they too become biomass
Perhaps a better example would be a squad of cheap, expendable guardsman strung out in a line encircling that juicy squad of devastators; you want to kill the devastators but have to chew through the guardsman first. You can kill these guardsman easily, but it adds a speed bump that slows down your ability to target the more powerful but also more vulnerable unit.
Would indeed be better bubble wrap. I was just keeping it all space marine. I still can't fathom how people mix and match that much imperium. Space Wolves working together with Blood Angels? Ok. But why does guard always gotta just defect to whatever side hates them the least?
Thoughts on the Hausperex? It looks amazing at killing both infantry and vehicles but the near 300pt costs is a little hard to swallow (get it ... oh I slay myself). Has anyone used one yet in the field? Would love to know thoughts if people found them to be worth it.
Jaq Draco lives wrote: Is there any place for ripper swarms? I only ask because I love the FW model.
And I can't help but think absurdly cheap troop units is a plus, and stealing or sitting on objectives is also a plus given their burrowing thing.
I honestly consider one unit auto-take. By turn three the table of any 8th Ed game is heavily depleted, so for 33pts you have a unit land on an objective people haven't been focused on.
Jaq Draco lives wrote: Is there any place for ripper swarms? I only ask because I love the FW model.
And I can't help but think absurdly cheap troop units is a plus, and stealing or sitting on objectives is also a plus given their burrowing thing.
I honestly consider one unit auto-take. By turn three the table of any 8th Ed game is heavily depleted, so for 33pts you have a unit land on an objective people haven't been focused on.
Pleased you said that and yeah you are saying what I hoped would be right. Gives me an excuse to order at least one model
Well the Barbed Hierodule and Harridan are disappointing.
On the other hand the Scythed Hierodule is good, stone-crusher carnifexes are crazy good and the malanthrope is auto-take because point cost vs power level massive error.
BUT THAT HIEROPHANT THO. Who's the guy with the balls of steel who's gonna play it at 2k just because he can?? And it's a murder machine
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tyran wrote: Well the Barbed Hierodule and Harridan are disappointing.
On the other hand the Scythed Hierodule is good, stone-crusher carnifexes are crazy good and the malanthrope is auto-take because point cost vs power level massive error.
But yes, stone crushers better than regular carnifexes in every conceivable way. I think I run up the table with a brood of 2-3 plus OOE, escorting the malanthrope up the board just to see what happens.
This means I will probably have to drop my Exocrine and Broodlord...but I SAY WORTH (it's probably not at the competitive level but I'm just glad that this can be good now)
Automatically Appended Next Post: I would actually prefer the Barbed Hierodule over the scythed. Not quite as cheap but the guns are pretty solid. They just look back when you compare them to the Hierophant (but so does basically everything else in the game)
luke1705 wrote: BUT THAT HIEROPHANT THO. Who's the guy with the balls of steel who's gonna play it at 2k just because he can?? And it's a murder machine
luke1705 wrote: BUT THAT HIEROPHANT THO. Who's the guy with the balls of steel who's gonna play it at 2k just because he can?? And it's a murder machine
And you can give it a malanthrope or catalyst.
Not at 2k lmao but otherwise yes. Heck, you can have Swarmy make it move twice
And I mean, transporting the broodlord and his 20 closest friends? Yes please
luke and Tyran, Where are you guys seeing FW rules?
Jaq Draco lives wrote: Is there any place for ripper swarms? I only ask because I love the FW model.
And I can't help but think absurdly cheap troop units is a plus, and stealing or sitting on objectives is also a plus given their burrowing thing.
I'm running one as my troop. Seems like it would have a larger impact than any other min size troop taken for tax, and as you said its also the cheapest.
Kinda totally against the rules. But it'll be out in...58 minutes where I live. And like for real, I'm thinking I might need a second Dimachaeron. Absolutely terrifying.
Explaine why the Scythed Hierodule, the Stone crusher, theH Hierophant and the Dicha are so incredible for a guy that didn't order the FW books for now!!!
hellpato wrote: Explaine why the Scythed Hierodule, the Stone crusher, theH Hierophant and the Dicha are so incredible for a guy that didn't order the FW books for now!!!
Well the Dima finally got his 12" move (and with Swarmy's double move is loving life right now). He still blenderizes pretty much anything in cc. Not really an infantry murder machine due to just not having a huge volume of attacks, but I'll take it.
Scythed and Barbed Hierodule both got big points discounts this time around, which is good because they were stupidly overcosted last time. Now they both have a ton of wounds, and their CC attacks are great. The Barbed Hierodule has pretty much the same level of shooting as last edition (pretty good but not going to knock your socks off) but again they are both much cheaper which is great. Definitely worth considering in any list.
The Hierophant is an army in itself. Perhaps the most durable model in the game whose name doesn't have "War_____" in it, though I haven't seen the Phantom Titan yet and I suspect that will be pretty durable as well. His guns are amazing, and his combat skills are a lot more fleshed out than they were last edition. He takes up more than 90% of your 2000 point army, so likely apocalypse only (although I'm already brainstorming how to fit him into a 2k list )
The stone crusher is what a regular Carnifex should have been IMO. Pretty much the same cost but he actually wrecks face in CC without that annoying -1 to hit that normal carnifexes have, which is really their downfall IMO.
Heirophant looks overcosted to me, Survivability of about 3.5 Tyrannofexes, puts out about 21 wounds on anything in CC, same in shooting but twice that vs Titanic thanks to macro... he does 42 wounds to himself in a turn basically. Looks fun though.
Wreckers will be the way to go for AT Carnifexes, but im not convinced that is a very strong concept to begin with...
Swarmlord + Scythed Heirodule will cover a LOT of ground. Dima too. leaping forward with a Scythy like that into something important might be a smart play to threaten so much space and snag something turn 1, will probably work nicely next to stealers as well since it threatens the heavy stuff. Might not be priced practically however.
Malathrope will be my HQ, no doubt about it. Not because I think it's undercosted, but I just don't think our other options are that great....
Well it helps that he's undercosted lmao. I think you're right that the Hierophant is overcosted, but he's also doing 4d6!!! (or technically 2d6 x 2) damage on each unsaved wound from his gun. Really complete overkill unless you're playing an apocalypse level game....but if you are...wow!
I think people are underestimating Carnifexes because we're used to them dying so freaking fast, and those of us who have played with them in 8th so far have found the CC versions to be somewhat lacking in a few respects....no longer. No longer.
I like the Swarmlords double move.. but that buff only has a 6" range.. which means you need to pod him to really get that on it you wanted it on.. which then just chews up more points... just to get 1 unit into combat
GodDamUser wrote: I like the Swarmlords double move.. but that buff only has a 6" range.. which means you need to pod him to really get that on it you wanted it on.. which then just chews up more points... just to get 1 unit into combat
Not really. GS move 8" plus a D6 advance, doubled that is 22" movement on average but potentially up to 28" then an average 7" charge meaning between 29" on the average rolls but a maximum threat distance of 34" on the first turn which covers the majority of the board, no reason to pod Swarmie.
Niiai wrote: Where are the rules for the fw models? Is it updated and available or do you need to buy a new book to get them?
You need to buy a new imperial Armour Xenos book for the rules. It came out today and costs 17 Euro digitally. That is why I am asking about the rules for Meotic Spores. I am not planning to pay 17 Euro just for that.
GodDamUser wrote: I like the Swarmlords double move.. but that buff only has a 6" range.. which means you need to pod him to really get that on it you wanted it on.. which then just chews up more points... just to get 1 unit into combat
Not really. GS move 8" plus a D6 advance, doubled that is 22" movement on average but potentially up to 28" then an average 7" charge meaning between 29" on the average rolls but a maximum threat distance of 34" on the first turn which covers the majority of the board, no reason to pod Swarmie.
But if the Genestealers do their max move its a good chance they outrun the Swarmlord before he can buff them is my point
And I think one of the "hidden" ballences in 8th is that Horde armies are very strong 
But will almost always have to weather an alpha strike. Really any "elite" army that goes second has messed up, and will pay a price. 
I'm still figuring on using a Brigade, with Two trygons, and Two Mawlocs currently. I won't have a solid idea till I can read the rules without flipping back and forth. 
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