Waaaghpower wrote:
Also: What units make up a 'good' Tyranid list? I hear Biovore spam is good. Anything besides that?

Nids have a lot of flexibility and versatility in unit choice nowadays, it's a great army for playing how you want to play, find a play style that suits you and you can find success with it in this Dex. That doesn't mean you don't lose half the time against an evenly matched player - you should be, you should even get stomped occasionally and vice versa, this is what a balanced army looks like in a game built around ring,min the learning phases of the edition.

I will say however mass Biovores do nothing but flop. They don't have the numbers to justify the points.

Waaaghpower wrote:

He had some-odd ninety shooty gants, a few Tervigons, a number of Exocrines, many Biovores, some medium sized units that I think were Warriors, some Hive Guard or something, five Zoanthropes, and Malanthropes as well as Venomthropes for armywide -1 To Hit coverage. (Can you tell that I don't play against Tyranids very often? I only really heard his list once as we were both setting up, so... Dunno many details, and wasn't too concerned about

Tervigon is the most over costed P.o.s in the Dex, it's approaching Swarmlord levels of points for a unit that haszero offensive impact and point for point is one of the thinnest units in the Dex. Add to that the stack of Zoanthropes, the Biovore spam, and multiple Thropes... The guy lost because he's playing a 2000 point army in a 3000 point game. He needs to build smarter, the niche/specialist units are to cover gaps, not to be taken open masse, you need to be throwing enough dice if you want to compete.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, on track with current topic, there is no doubt in my mind Warriors are better than Shrikes, and they are just a great unit in general. I run 5 but if I tweak they will be the first thing I add more of. Prime is an excellent HQ if you have a full unit, it's up there with Malanthrope if you do

I'm a new player and bought a Tervigon to be my Warlord cornerstone HQ and I can't seem to get any value out of it. It takes up 13 PL and I feel committed to 18PL worth of termaguants if I run it. That's a 1/3rd of my power level in 100PL games.

I've tried to advance with it across the map. It draws fire and provides synapse, and eventually dies (this has been the best result). I've tried leaving it open but in cover on turn one, it draws fire and lets units get down field, I've tried hiding on a back objective but then all the things that shoot at it on turn one shoot at other things. My opponents simply ignore the termagaunts that throw out hundreds of shots but deal 2-5 wounds per round. I don't think you should play the Tervigon and termagaunts versus MEQ armies Broodlords and genestealers or even better Patriarchs and Genestealers seem to be the way to go.

Maybe against Astra Militarium and Sororitas they'd be better due to more wounds. Is that the consensus?

Resipsa131 wrote:
I'm a new player and bought a Tervigon to be my Warlord cornerstone HQ and I can't seem to get any value out of it. It takes up 13 PL and I feel committed to 18PL worth of termaguants if I run it. That's a 1/3rd of my power level in 100PL games.

I've tried to advance with it across the map. It draws fire and provides synapse, and eventually dies (this has been the best result). I've tried leaving it open but in cover on turn one, it draws fire and lets units get down field, I've tried hiding on a back objective but then all the things that shoot at it on turn one shoot at other things. My opponents simply ignore the termagaunts that throw out hundreds of shots but deal 2-5 wounds per round. I don't think you should play the Tervigon and termagaunts versus MEQ armies Broodlords and genestealers or even better Patriarchs and Genestealers seem to be the way to go.

Maybe against Astra Militarium and Sororitas they'd be better due to more wounds. Is that the consensus?

What weapons are you giving to your termagants? If you are not playing with 30 model strong units with 15-20 devourers each and the rest fleshborers, you are not getting the best out of your tervigon (which honestly is not that great to begin with, so you should help her however you can). 20 devourers rerolling 1's both on hit and wound can take down 7 marines per shooting phase (7PL), that's a steal for 9 PL. Be aggresive with them and take some venoms to help. Use some lictors to disrupt enemy heavy shooting (2PL each, really worth it). Just don't expect termagants to do what they shouldn't be doing, like taking down T8 vehicles, there are other tools for that.

Spoletta wrote:

Resipsa131 wrote:
I'm a new player and bought a Tervigon to be my Warlord cornerstone HQ and I can't seem to get any value out of it. It takes up 13 PL and I feel committed to 18PL worth of termaguants if I run it. That's a 1/3rd of my power level in 100PL games.

I've tried to advance with it across the map. It draws fire and provides synapse, and eventually dies (this has been the best result). I've tried leaving it open but in cover on turn one, it draws fire and lets units get down field, I've tried hiding on a back objective but then all the things that shoot at it on turn one shoot at other things. My opponents simply ignore the termagaunts that throw out hundreds of shots but deal 2-5 wounds per round. I don't think you should play the Tervigon and termagaunts versus MEQ armies Broodlords and genestealers or even better Patriarchs and Genestealers seem to be the way to go.

Maybe against Astra Militarium and Sororitas they'd be better due to more wounds. Is that the consensus?

What weapons are you giving to your termagants? If you are not playing with 30 model strong units with 15-20 devourers each and the rest fleshborers, you are not getting the best out of your tervigon (which honestly is not that great to begin with, so you should help her however you can). 20 devourers rerolling 1's both on hit and wound can take down 7 marines per shooting phase (7PL), that's a steal for 9 PL. Be aggresive with them and take some venoms to help. Use some lictors to disrupt enemy heavy shooting (2PL each, really worth it). Just don't expect termagants to do what they shouldn't be doing, like taking down T8 vehicles, there are other tools for that.

I'm running my termagants in x2 30 model units 10 with fleshborers to replenish although I'm thinking about cutting it to 5 fleshborers per unit and the rest devilgants. My problem is that I never get to shoot MEQ outside of cover. The lack of any AP really cuts into the effectiveness of their volley of shots.

Maybe that you are too focused on ranged warfare. Nids like a balanced approach.

Resipsa131 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

Resipsa131 wrote:
I'm a new player and bought a Tervigon to be my Warlord cornerstone HQ and I can't seem to get any value out of it. It takes up 13 PL and I feel committed to 18PL worth of termaguants if I run it. That's a 1/3rd of my power level in 100PL games.

I've tried to advance with it across the map. It draws fire and provides synapse, and eventually dies (this has been the best result). I've tried leaving it open but in cover on turn one, it draws fire and lets units get down field, I've tried hiding on a back objective but then all the things that shoot at it on turn one shoot at other things. My opponents simply ignore the termagaunts that throw out hundreds of shots but deal 2-5 wounds per round. I don't think you should play the Tervigon and termagaunts versus MEQ armies Broodlords and genestealers or even better Patriarchs and Genestealers seem to be the way to go.

Maybe against Astra Militarium and Sororitas they'd be better due to more wounds. Is that the consensus?

What weapons are you giving to your termagants? If you are not playing with 30 model strong units with 15-20 devourers each and the rest fleshborers, you are not getting the best out of your tervigon (which honestly is not that great to begin with, so you should help her however you can). 20 devourers rerolling 1's both on hit and wound can take down 7 marines per shooting phase (7PL), that's a steal for 9 PL. Be aggresive with them and take some venoms to help. Use some lictors to disrupt enemy heavy shooting (2PL each, really worth it). Just don't expect termagants to do what they shouldn't be doing, like taking down T8 vehicles, there are other tools for that.

I'm running my termagants in x2 30 model units 10 with fleshborers to replenish although I'm thinking about cutting it to 5 fleshborers per unit and the rest devilgants. My problem is that I never get to shoot MEQ outside of cover. The lack of any AP really cuts into the effectiveness of their volley of shots.

Well if you're tired of the Tervigon taking so much fire, maybe add in some distraction Carnifexen? They can even help with vehicles...

Resipsa131 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

Resipsa131 wrote:
I'm a new player and bought a Tervigon to be my Warlord cornerstone HQ and I can't seem to get any value out of it. It takes up 13 PL and I feel committed to 18PL worth of termaguants if I run it. That's a 1/3rd of my power level in 100PL games.

I've tried to advance with it across the map. It draws fire and provides synapse, and eventually dies (this has been the best result). I've tried leaving it open but in cover on turn one, it draws fire and lets units get down field, I've tried hiding on a back objective but then all the things that shoot at it on turn one shoot at other things. My opponents simply ignore the termagaunts that throw out hundreds of shots but deal 2-5 wounds per round. I don't think you should play the Tervigon and termagaunts versus MEQ armies Broodlords and genestealers or even better Patriarchs and Genestealers seem to be the way to go.

Maybe against Astra Militarium and Sororitas they'd be better due to more wounds. Is that the consensus?

What weapons are you giving to your termagants? If you are not playing with 30 model strong units with 15-20 devourers each and the rest fleshborers, you are not getting the best out of your tervigon (which honestly is not that great to begin with, so you should help her however you can). 20 devourers rerolling 1's both on hit and wound can take down 7 marines per shooting phase (7PL), that's a steal for 9 PL. Be aggresive with them and take some venoms to help. Use some lictors to disrupt enemy heavy shooting (2PL each, really worth it). Just don't expect termagants to do what they shouldn't be doing, like taking down T8 vehicles, there are other tools for that.

I'm running my termagants in x2 30 model units 10 with fleshborers to replenish although I'm thinking about cutting it to 5 fleshborers per unit and the rest devilgants. My problem is that I never get to shoot MEQ outside of cover. The lack of any AP really cuts into the effectiveness of their volley of shots.

You're going to struggle to get value out of the Tervigon. Hate to say it but it's a really poor unit, quite possibly the worst in the dex. That can be demoralizing to hear but this is one unit that I honestly don't think is ever worth using, GW have been balancing it on the side of caution after what happened in 5th, so as a result it's ridiculously overcosted. On the plus side it's probably not too hard to change to a Tyrannofex which is at least a playable/decent unit.

Resipsa131 wrote:I'm a new player and bought a Tervigon to be my Warlord cornerstone HQ and I can't seem to get any value out of it. It takes up 13 PL and I feel committed to 18PL worth of termaguants if I run it. That's a 1/3rd of my power level in 100PL games.

I've tried to advance with it across the map. It draws fire and provides synapse, and eventually dies (this has been the best result). I've tried leaving it open but in cover on turn one, it draws fire and lets units get down field, I've tried hiding on a back objective but then all the things that shoot at it on turn one shoot at other things. My opponents simply ignore the termagaunts that throw out hundreds of shots but deal 2-5 wounds per round. I don't think you should play the Tervigon and termagaunts versus MEQ armies Broodlords and genestealers or even better Patriarchs and Genestealers seem to be the way to go.

Maybe against Astra Militarium and Sororitas they'd be better due to more wounds. Is that the consensus?

if you are going to use it Just remember you can only respawn the ones with Fleshborers

 SHUPPET wrote:

Nids have a lot of flexibility and versatility in unit choice nowadays, it's a great army for playing how you want to play, find a play style that suits you and you can find success with it in this Dex. That doesn't mean you don't lose half the time against an evenly matched player - you should be, you should even get stomped occasionally and vice versa, this is what a balanced army looks like in a game built around ring,min the learning phases of the edition.

Tyranids lose if the simply move towards the enemy with mediocre shooting. A nice "balanced" tyranid army loses in a competitive setting.

 SHUPPET wrote:

I will say however mass Biovores do nothing but flop. They don't have the numbers to justify the points.

You are only looking at the biovores and not the complete army. You need to find the best way to make sure the floating mines can assault, so it's not only about shooting mines from afar. Also, the best thing about single spore mines floating around is the movement blocking.

My 24 biovores deal 12+ mortal wounds when the shoot and deploy another 12 mines floating around. Thats not nothing.

shogun wrote:


You are only looking at the biovores and not the complete army. You need to find the best way to make sure the floating mines can assault, so it's not only about shooting mines from afar. Also, the best thing about single spore mines floating around is the movement blocking.

My 24 biovores deal 12+ mortal wounds when the shoot and deploy another 12 mines floating around. Thats not nothing.

12 wounds for 900 points is not good numbers lol. That's half your army. I'm not just looking at anything, the numbers are obviously subpar but I'm going from experience with Biovores. Spamming them is not a good idea in this edition and I'm yet to see any BR to even suggest otherwise.





I'm seeing a hell of a lot of Tyranid downplay in here though. I feel like a lot of you guys are playing the wrong dex, and looking for things that others have that we don't, without appreciating what we have. This army is very capable, that doesn't mean free wins left right and center. Put the work in the army will reward you.

Resipsa131 wrote:I'm a new player and bought a Tervigon to be my Warlord cornerstone HQ and I can't seem to get any value out of it. It takes up 13 PL and I feel committed to 18PL worth of termaguants if I run it. That's a 1/3rd of my power level in 100PL games.

I've tried to advance with it across the map. It draws fire and provides synapse, and eventually dies (this has been the best result). I've tried leaving it open but in cover on turn one, it draws fire and lets units get down field, I've tried hiding on a back objective but then all the things that shoot at it on turn one shoot at other things. My opponents simply ignore the termagaunts that throw out hundreds of shots but deal 2-5 wounds per round.

If you are playing with Power Levels instead of points you don't really need to bring any additional Termagants since they can be spawned for free (hence the Tervigon's high PL, it basically assumes you will spawn every turn). I'd probably cram it in a Tyrannocyte and have it drop in alongside whatever heavy hitters you have and use its spawn ability to throw a wall of Termagants up to soak overwatch or tie up enemy guns for a turn (spawning ignores the usual "no more than 9'' away" restriction).

Resipsa131 wrote:
I don't think you should play the Tervigon and termagaunts versus MEQ armies Broodlords and genestealers or even better Patriarchs and Genestealers seem to be the way to go.

Maybe against Astra Militarium and Sororitas they'd be better due to more wounds. Is that the consensus?

Termagants aren't really damage dealers (Devourers excluded), they exist to clog the table and limit where enemy assault units and deep strikers can go, thereby protecting more important units that provide actual damage. By extension, the Tervigon's main function is to insure these screens continue to block enemy movement by creating new ones or reinforcing existing ones.

You can still replace your dead flesh borers. I'm going to try them again this weekend in a patrol and just be hyper agressive up the field with them. Going GSC for most of my points to shake things up.

So looking into the Tyranids for the first time this edition as I want to try and redo an old idea of running an all close combat tyranid list. My initial question is, what is the point of one CCW biomorph over the other?

It seems that they have the same basic stats and only tweek a minor difference. Which works on say a space marine who if you give a power sword and powerfist you can see the relative reason on when you would use one over the other but say a licktor...why would I choose grasping claws over rending claws? Why give a hive tyrant boneswords and scything talons? Or a carnifex with any CCW loadout that isn't built to be a stone crusher?

Also how would people tackle a repulsor or a squad of aggressors?

 BrotherGecko wrote:
So looking into the Tyranids for the first time this edition as I want to try and redo an old idea of running an all close combat tyranid list. My initial question is, what is the point of one CCW biomorph over the other?

It seems that they have the same basic stats and only tweek a minor difference. Which works on say a space marine who if you give a power sword and powerfist you can see the relative reason on when you would use one over the other but say a licktor...why would I choose grasping claws over rending claws? Why give a hive tyrant boneswords and scything talons? Or a carnifex with any CCW loadout that isn't built to be a stone crusher?

Also how would people tackle a repulsor or a squad of aggressors?

When you don't pay for those weapons then it is handy to have them.

There are targets for lictors where grasping claws are better than rending claws.
There are targets for genestealers where scything talons are better than rending claws.
There are targets where monstrous scytals are better than monstrous boneswords.

Now, that tipically is not enough reason to pay for those weapons, which is why the common set ups are double ranged or melee/ranged.

For the stonecrusher fex, there are actually a certaing catergory of targets that is best served with a classic carnifex. Also, after what happened with AoS forgeworld yesterday, i would be wary of going after FW stuff just because it is undercosted.

GW is actively punishing that mindset.

1 Tervigon is very difficult to hang onto and get any value out of. You need 2. 2 Tervigons with 90 Termagants in 3 units of 30 (10 Devourers 20 fleshborers) Is a nightmare for the opponent to deal with. 150 shots from the termagants rerolling 1s to hit and to wound with psychic support and replenishing 20 models a turn. Fill out the rest of your list with immediate threats to act as distractions so they end up with threat overload (Trygons, Carnifex, etc etc...).

1 Tervigon will get dropped. 2 Tervigons is 28 wounds surrounded by a nightmare hail of living ammunition.

Tyranids are great as long as you don't want to win a very competitive tournament. You could absolutely go 2-1 at a RTT or 4-2 at a GT but that's about as far as you can reasonably expect to get.

But at any non-top tier tournament level, they're great. They have a lot of tools and can overwhelm a fair amount of armies. They really only have trouble against giant amounts of screening units.

Could I use a Patriarch model as a Broodlord model? Is there a big size difference between the two?

Yup. Feel free. It's basically the same thing with a different name anyway.

Besides there is already a pretty decent size difference between the Spawn of Cryptus and the clam pack Brood Lord. None of it matters.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Could I use a Patriarch model as a Broodlord model? Is there a big size difference between the two?

The current Brood Lord sculpt is quite a bit bigger and bulkier than the Patriarch, though both are about the same height.

Excellent, thanks very much for that comparison.

Witch one is what? And what would the big one from the spacehulk game be?

 Niiai wrote:
Witch one is what? And what would the big one from the spacehulk game be?

The super spikey one is the Patriarch from Deathwatch Overkill.

 Niiai wrote:
Which one is what?

The one on the left is the Patriarch and the one on the right is the current Brood Lord/Spawn of Cryptus.

 Niiai wrote:
And what would the big one from the spacehulk game be?

Found this. The current Brood Lord/Spawn of Cryptus is on the left and the Space Hulk Brood Lord is on the right.

Thanks :-)

Any thoughts on the Zoanthrope? Is it actually worth taking in a semi-competitive list?

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Any thoughts on the Zoanthrope? Is it actually worth taking in a semi-competitive list?

Depends on what sort of list. From my experience, they like playing in Swarm lists as synapse nodes since their defensive profile and self-healing capabilities makes them an unattractive target for heavy weapons which otherwise would love shooting at T4 3+ wound models instead of gaunts. They are surprisingly fast since they are free to advance every turn and Fly lets them move over friendly models without issue. Biggest problem is that their damage output is rather low for their cost, though Smite can be nasty en-mass (especially with the Warp Blast bonus in effect) and since it auto-hits is good for AA.

 luke1705 wrote:
Tyranids are great as long as you don't want to win a very competitive tournament. You could absolutely go 2-1 at a RTT or 4-2 at a GT but that's about as far as you can reasonably expect to get.

But at any non-top tier tournament level, they're great. They have a lot of tools and can overwhelm a fair amount of armies. They really only have trouble against giant amounts of screening units.

Im sorry but that is the absolute WORST attitude to have playing an army. With the flexibility of the current army and edition, Nids can be top tier in the right hands. Id have to agree with SHUPPET in that this kind of comment makes me feel that many are just playing the wrong army. Nids simply doesnt have delete units (singular units with such overwhelming firepower), not unless you over invest. The closest to a delete unit being a 20 stealer blob with patriarch/ broodlord. The army is more of a "plink" army, many things that are deadly to most targets, so that the opponent has nothing but bad choices with what to engage.

As far as zoanthropes are concerned, they are great! I have found that 5 is the minimum, if you are using them for smite, which you should be. I also agree with SHUPPET that tervigons are horrendously overcosted, but I do think they are playable and that Lance845 hit it right on the head describing how to use them you must double up. Yes it is expensive to run 2 and 90 gaunts, but even just the psychological impact on your opponent when he sees that and 20 replenishing a turn...it is very demoralizing. Running that, even with just 60 gaunts, I have had VERY few opponents attempt to challenge my deployment zone. Not unless they have mass dropping assault, to which you can also demoralize by giving the front gaunt screen catalyst. Nothing like having 10 berzerkers only kill around 10-15 gaunts...only to have them immediately come back....

Now having used mass biovores, I will always use at least 9. The movement and targeting restriction alone is worth it. Trapping knights in place with your non-infantry little poop bombs is possibly the most hilarious thing I have seen in the game in a long while. And you dont need many either, 4 at least and that sucker is stuck. I am also a heavy supporter of the mid stat nids. Warriors, hive guard, zooees, pyrovores, are all much more impressive than I believed they would be. 9 warriors, or 2 units of 6 with a prime is glorious, and units of 6 shockguard or impaler guard with a malanthrope as company is DAMN good. Dont be afraid to run the impaler guard around, -1 is not a biggie for them compared to previous editions, and if you need them 3s just throw an onslaught on them and move wherever the hell you please.

Im loving nids this edition, they are tons of fun and actually good again!

PS: 9 pistol double scy raveners with the terror is downright silly.
Reason I use pistols (spinefists) was through trial and error but it amounts to the following:
-The other 2 are absolutely viable, with greater range, strength and ap(deathspitters), their shooting targets and shooting engagement distance are much higher.
-The other 2 have one fatal weakness...combat. If you pay for the other 2, you essentially get a turn to use them, and then potentially never get to use them again. I have found that opponents will simply launch a tank or something into the unit just to prevent them from firing again
-The spinefists have 1 more shot, can shoot into combat, and are essentially always usable even if the unit were to get charged, and then locked in combat.

Give them a try, you might be surprised!

One weird thing I've noticed on the GW webstore:

1 Deathleaper - 29.99 CDN
1 Lictor - 44.99 CDN

Am I missing something? Why wouldn't people just use a few Deathleaper models are Lictors if they're so inclined?

Speaking of Lictors, I'm curious how people are using them this edition and if they're actually worth taking.

Playing around with the idea of a second army and having a lot of fun theorycrafting some 1500 pt Tyranid lists, reading this thread's been helpful! Are any of these viable?




A balanced approach. Turn 1 Mawloc pops up in the enemy backfield to cause some mortal wounds and they either focus fire it down (meaning they don't fire on any of my other units with their heavy weapons) or they ignore it and it's free to charge their important character or scary shooting unit next turn. Meanwhile the Broodlord advances with two squads of Stealers with the Flyrant as support. Broodlord casts Catalyst on the Stealers to give them some durability while the Flyrant casts The Horror on the enemy unit most likely to mulch them (Twin Assault Cannon Razorbacks for example). Exocrines provide solid firing support in the meantime with Warrior providing Synapse and some protection against deep strikers. Rippers for objective stealing/overwatch eating. Only real issue I have with this list is that there's only a single lane for attacking, but hopefully the combination of the Mawloc distraction, Exocrine fire, and the number of Stealers is enough for them to still be a major threat once they reach enemy lines.




Nidzilla lite list for fun. OOE marches up the battlefield with 2 Stone Crushers with a Malanthrope in tow for the -1 to hit. Warriors babysitting and synapsing the Exocrines. Flyrant and Harpy doing their thing while the Mawloc providing distraction, hopefully enough for the melee forces to reach the enemy side safely. AT weapons are going to have a field day, plus the lack of Stealers and troops doesn't help in an objective based game. This list is definitely going to be missing the raw power and numbers of the Stealers. Missing out on 2 CP from not being in a Battalion doesn't help either.




Trygon Prime taxi ferrying the Termagaunts to harass the backline while the Broodlord and Stealers go up on lane, Swarmlord and Tyrant Guard up another. Harpy providing aerial support some some kind of defense against flyers. Lack of any real shooting outside the Termagaunts kinda hurts though. An interesting strategy but might be a one trick pony.

Any thoughts or improvements?

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
One weird thing I've noticed on the GW webstore:

1 Deathleaper - 29.99 CDN
1 Lictor - 44.99 CDN

Am I missing something? Why wouldn't people just use a few Deathleaper models are Lictors if they're so inclined?

Speaking of Lictors, I'm curious how people are using them this edition and if they're actually worth taking.

I've used a lictor a few times to fill an elites slot for 45 points. I have a lot of deep strikers in my army so the lictor is a very low threat priority. My main use for him has been to tie up vehicles (charged a land raider on turn 1), counter strike assassins, or snag objectives. In a NOVA mission, my opponent actually selected the lictor as one of his secondary objectives because it was the only non-monster character for his sniper assassin to easily kill. So I just left it in reserves until turn 3 and then hid it, denying him victory points.

If there's no good target for him to attack, he's at least as good as 3 ripper for snagging objectives.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
One weird thing I've noticed on the GW webstore:

1 Deathleaper - 29.99 CDN
1 Lictor - 44.99 CDN

Am I missing something? Why wouldn't people just use a few Deathleaper models are Lictors if they're so inclined?

Speaking of Lictors, I'm curious how people are using them this edition and if they're actually worth taking.

that is weird because the Deathleaper and Lictor are exactly the same price as each other on the UK, US, and Australian stores. After doing some conversions, Deathleaper seems priced accurately for you guys (a little more than U.S., in typical Canadian pricing) so Lictor seems REALLY overpriced, might be a mistake. However I'd be cautious to point it out to them because I think you'd be just as likely as to see them raise price of the Deathleaper as you are of seeing them drop price on the Lictor. Dice roll.

Honestly I'd be expecting a plastic Deathleaper/lictor kit and a plastic Biovore/pyrovore kit from GW. If they go the same as the others then they'd be 3 unit boxed sets; not cheap but no more buying one at a time. That would get all those models both off blisters and finecast and move Tyranids to a point where the only other finecast is the Red Terror.

I know its a lot to ask for, but i really want to see the prime get revamped into having mutation options so it can have wings and be a shrike prime or a tail and be a ravenor prime and give its bonus to which ever unit its built for.

I would be so happy.

 Lance845 wrote:
I know its a lot to ask for, but i really want to see the prime get revamped into having mutation options so it can have wings and be a shrike prime or a tail and be a ravenor prime and give its bonus to which ever unit its built for.

I would be so happy.

Wings would be cool. Red Terror is already Ravenor Prime

They've got upgrade packs for other factions, a tyranid upgrade pack with gaunt weapons, warrior wings and a few other bits would be an easy way to update several models with codex upgrades/weapons without having to re-do the gaunts and warrior sprues.

I would be completely fine loosing the red terror and his wierd swallow whole rules to instead gain a prime that gave the +1 to hit to all ravenors around it with the increased speed and deepstrike ability.

Personally I feel that tyranids are getting rather "full" as an army; especially as many of our bigger creatures are multiple role potential.

Tyranids are in a really strong position but model diversity wise I feel as if GW keep adding more things its going to dilute what tyranids can do.

So I'd rather see us retain and get more units like Red Terror - that is unique or limited breeding units that are essentially like special characters in other armies. But at the same time are unique models - warrior prime and swarmlord are all "in-kit" choices rather than unique appearances from the box. So I'd like to see others - it would be a neat way to add new looking tyraninds without diluting the core.

Another option would be splinter-fleets. Rather like Spacemarines, it would mean adding a few new units that are unique to specific hive-fleets. These might even replace core unit choices. So instead of, say, a new gaunt pack and such there'd be a "Hive XWU" gaunt model. Thus letting GW release new stuff to be bought without diluting "core" tyranids.

That is what we get when they are very incoasistent from codex to codex. What could be a gun one edition suddenly turned into a napking or something else the next.

I only wish we got the last models in plastic. Perhaps if they need to throw in some other new units we could do with a sniper. It is the only thing we don't have. But the nid dex is awsome at the moment.

Niiai the codex variations do give weight to what the best choices are; but its more a factor that many of the beasties have variable choices. Hive tyrants, warriors, carnifex and others have enough weapon choices to fill many slots. That gives tyranids great versatility; but also means that there's less room to add things into the army to fit slots. This is even more hte case now as we've gained a lot of monstrous specialists. We've got ranged and artillery and close combat and even psychic MCs in the army now.

It links back to my view that there isn't a huge amount of room to actually add new things unless GW starts to introduce more new features into the game - eg how they added air units as a core component.


A sniper would be neat, and is just the kind of thing that could be a unique unit. A sniper special character that means Tyranids can add it if they choose but can only take the one so that its not replacing or competing as much for core army choices and balance

For all their big monsters, they lack a biggest monster in plastic. I'd like to see a plastic LoW that has 2 or 3 variants built in. Along with that, I'd like to be a transport for Nids up to at least warrior size. Then just make it either a shooty or punchy unit.

That reminds me actually, we are still "missing" two old epic style tyranids. The Malefactor and dactylis.

The malefactor was a huge transport unit designed to slide over the battlefield and unleash warriors and other troops onto the forefront of battle.

The Dactylis was basically a super-sized biovore which used arms to throw spores. Granted that last bit could be changed, but a super-sized spore artillery could be neat; though I think if GW were going to give us one they'd have bundled it with the Exocrine as a varient with a different gun design.

You are also right in that we don't have a titan in plastic. The Trygon was our titan once way back when it was the biggest thing in plastic; but now its more standard big-bug size and is more of a delivery/disruption engine than a titan killer. They could indeed bring a titan of new design into the 40K scene in plastic.

I would really enjoy a Malefactor.

If we got an actual transport bug that could carry say... 40 models. Warriors counting as 2.

That could be 30 hormagaunts with warrior support. Or 2 blobs of Genestealers.

I would love that.

I'd like a Hive Mother Worm on the scale of a Imperial Knight....say Tunnel Assault any two Units, Does d3 mortal wounds in a 3" raduis to enemies on arrival, Lvl 3? Psycher, and "Dark Shadows in the Warp!" "any Psycher unit that is in Shadow of the Warp takes a Mortal Wound 5+, each Turn"

Then give her the "super smite" beam that Zoey swarms toss(2D3), and it does x2 damage vs Titan class targets, and we're close. Say 500 or so depending?

I just want them to make the biovore shot similar to a missile laucher.. choose when firing whether what we currently have or d6 wounds with saves allowed.

Overread wrote:They've got upgrade packs for other factions, a tyranid upgrade pack with gaunt weapons, warrior wings and a few other bits would be an easy way to update several models with codex upgrades/weapons without having to re-do the gaunts and warrior sprues.

I'm expecting Shrikes will eventually get their own kit with a body type mirroring the flying Tyrant or Gargoyles (talon "feet" and elongated long tail) and maybe combine them with a new unit based on the old Parasite of Mortrex. That said, I'm expecting anything that doesn't have a main-line GW model (Shrikes, Sky Slashers, Spike Rifles, Tangleweb) will probably end up being an Index only option for the next codex, as I can't see us getting any new models with the book due to the frantic release pace.

Overread wrote:
The Dactylis was basically a super-sized biovore which used arms to throw spores. Granted that last bit could be changed, but a super-sized spore artillery could be neat; though I think if GW were going to give us one they'd have bundled it with the Exocrine as a varient with a different gun design.

I'd be willing to bet if they did the Dactylis/Malfactor kit they would probably redesign the former to fling Mucolid Spores, as it would provide another source to acquire Mucolids and allow for some shared components (main body would probably have sacs bulging from the underbelly and between armored plating, with a head swap and arm swap to differentiate the two).

Overread wrote:
You are also right in that we don't have a titan in plastic. The Trygon was our titan once way back when it was the biggest thing in plastic; but now its more standard big-bug size and is more of a delivery/disruption engine than a titan killer. They could indeed bring a titan of new design into the 40K scene in plastic.

They also keep mentioning the Dominitrix in various fluff sections (Hive Fleet Gorgon was said be relying on them and Tervigons to keep its adaptable swarms reinforced and there was another note mentioning they served as strategic command with Hive Tyrants acting as lieutenants). The old epic model looks like an overgrown Termagant with Crushing Claws in place of a gun and a creature on its back melded with a bio-cannon, so compared to the formerly slug-like Haruspex/Exocrine strains adapting it should be relatively easier since it already shares design elements with existing creatures.

The old epic designs are mostly gone for anything big; they were first generation tyranids. The biotitans used to be more spider-like (with 6 instead of 8 limbs) and whilst the FW one has some baring on that its a very very different looking beast. A dominatrix could look totally different to the one in Epic and still be a dominatrix. It would be awesome to get one and Tyranids are an older-army so as orks imperials and eldar have their big toys; Tyranids are (should be)in line for theirs (followed by Necron and Tau).

I'd also love to see GW today doing a big beast for Tyranids; their plastic casting has come a long long way so whilst it won't be the amazing detail that resin can capture; I think it would be very very impressive to see

Dropped Fleshborer T-Fexe's from my list, seeing as Tyranid Warriors on the fly more or less match a stationary T-Fex damage output vs most targets, point for point, so long as Tyranid Prime is in range (which I find is much less restrictive condition than having not moved with an 18" range gun), and the difference in CC is incomparable


-------
1998 pts

1x Tyranid Prime w/ Boneswords


9x Tyranid Warrior w/ Deathpitters + Rending Claws
9x Tyranid Warrior w/ Deathpitters + Rending Claws
30x Termagant, half w/ Devourers
30x Termagant, half w/ Devourers
3x Ripper Swarms


3x Carnifex w/ Dual Deathpitters + Bioplasma
3x Carnifex w/ Dual Deathpitters + Bioplasma
1x Exocrine

-------



Lots of dice. Warriors are hardcore and seriously slept on. Might hurt if the Prime gets sniped, but hasn't happened yet. I'm considering Stonecrushers with the olBallnChain, but I think I prefer PlasmaFexs. It's a tight and fun list. After testing Warrior's with Prime I'm never going back.


One thing I'm going to be taking note of while playing is whether I want to put 3 Venom Cannon's in each Warrior squad. It's a negligible amount (1 point per Cannon since they are already holding Deathspitters if not), but I'm not convinced that 36" range is worth trading 3 shots for 2. I'll see in practice tho, and if it looks like I'd be getting mileage off the range, dropping a single Devourer on a termagant will make the list round out at a perfect 2000 pts if I include all 6 VCs.

Si nice to se you finaly came onboard the warrior train. Choo-choo!

 Niiai wrote:
Si nice to se you finaly came onboard the warrior train. Choo-choo!

I've been on board with Warriors being good for a while ! Just wasn't using them yet, but now that I am... great unit

 N.I.B. wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
I worked up a new 2K list with 21 Biovores. I'm hoping to have enough mortal wounds a round to delete almost any enemy model/unit in a turn.

21 Biovores would be ~ 10 mortal wounds to a unit per turn. Threatening to many units without FNP, but not hordes, and not even enough to deteriorate an Imperial Knight. Not sure I'd want to sink 756pts + synapse babysitting into that. Are you winning games with this?

My nids face off against alot of Marine and Tau forces. 10+ Mortal wounds + 10 individual units of Spore Mines, a turn has been quite effective at removing threats that would otherwise prove difficult.

I'm the groups Imperial Knight and Xenos/Hordes playing enthusiast.

 gameandwatch wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
Tyranids are great as long as you don't want to win a very competitive tournament. You could absolutely go 2-1 at a RTT or 4-2 at a GT but that's about as far as you can reasonably expect to get.

But at any non-top tier tournament level, they're great. They have a lot of tools and can overwhelm a fair amount of armies. They really only have trouble against giant amounts of screening units.

Im sorry but that is the absolute WORST attitude to have playing an army. With the flexibility of the current army and edition, Nids can be top tier in the right hands.

....

Give them a try, you might be surprised!

Not really sure how me saying that Nids weren't going to win NOVA amounts to having fun wrong. Nids are my first love and I'm very excited to see what the codex has in store. I never said that they were bad - just that they have some bad matchups at the highest levels of competition. As far as giving them a try, I have and I will continue to do so. But if you try to pit them against a guard gun line, an optimized CSM list or many other of the upper tier tournament lists, you'll struggle mightily. As the top Tyranid player, Geoff Robinson did go 5-1 and place 40th at NOVA, losing only to Ynnari. But he also failed to matchup against Chaos except for Death Guard and only played IG once (which, to his credit, he did win).

In any case, sorry that you disagree with my assessment of where Tyranids are right now. It is literally miles better than we have been in a long time, and I'm very happy. Just wanted to put a realistic ceiling on how people could expect to do at a large event.

To be fair, that theoretical ceiling for Nids competitively should probably have an asterisk for pure Nids. If you use majority Nids and sprinkle in some allies (GSC, IG) it massively boosts the ceiling, to the point where a good player could be reasonably looking at 5-1 and occasionally sneaking 6-0. I played in a smaller GT last weekend and went 5-0, ending up in 1st with a mixed Nid Guard army. I abused the best parts of Nids (2x Exocrines and Malanthrope with large gant broods and stealer support) with Elysian Guard drops and Taurox primes/Manticore Batteries. The Exocrines are excellent anti medium infantry/medium tanks, but the Manticore batteries and Plasma drops helped cover weaknesses while my gants blobs repelled alphastrikes long enough for the Stealers to counterattack and keep the guns firing. It should be mentioned that I managed to avoid playing Chaos in the GT, but the predecessor of this list was able to handle the old Brimstone hordes so I feel like I could give it a good game. 10+ malefic lords are their own kind of problem of course.

For those wondering on matchups, I played a DE flier/venomspam list with 3 Ravagers and Incubi, then a GK DS army with Guilliman and 2 Stormhawks, then a GK DS army with scion support and Celestine, then an Imperial soup mix of GK/Raven Guard that focused on DS and reroll to charge, and finally a mechanized Sisters of Battle rush list with lots of tanks flooding the board (Similar to Adrien Jeanniards list from NOVA). I also dodged the Guard gunline list, but in test games I was able to weather it *relatively* well with the malanthrope bubble affecting shooting and catalyst on the big blobs mitigating smite spam.

luke1705 wrote:

 gameandwatch wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
Tyranids are great as long as you don't want to win a very competitive tournament. You could absolutely go 2-1 at a RTT or 4-2 at a GT but that's about as far as you can reasonably expect to get.

But at any non-top tier tournament level, they're great. They have a lot of tools and can overwhelm a fair amount of armies. They really only have trouble against giant amounts of screening units.

Im sorry but that is the absolute WORST attitude to have playing an army. With the flexibility of the current army and edition, Nids can be top tier in the right hands.

....

Give them a try, you might be surprised!

Not really sure how me saying that Nids weren't going to win NOVA amounts to having fun wrong. Nids are my first love and I'm very excited to see what the codex has in store. I never said that they were bad - just that they have some bad matchups at the highest levels of competition. As far as giving them a try, I have and I will continue to do so. But if you try to pit them against a guard gun line, an optimized CSM list or many other of the upper tier tournament lists, you'll struggle mightily. As the top Tyranid player, Geoff Robinson did go 5-1 and place 40th at NOVA, losing only to Ynnari. But he also failed to matchup against Chaos except for Death Guard and only played IG once (which, to his credit, he did win).

In any case, sorry that you disagree with my assessment of where Tyranids are right now. It is literally miles better than we have been in a long time, and I'm very happy. Just wanted to put a realistic ceiling on how people could expect to do at a large event.

He didn't say you were having fun wrong, he said it wasn't a good attitude to have competitively. And it's not. You've decided these limitations are there, when in reality I don't think it's the case at all - If you are talking about high possibility of dropping a match or two out of 8 - that's there for almost every army in the game except the utmost top 1 or 2 OP armies. And you said Nids couldn't go further than 4-2 at NOVA so you're already factually incorrect on that one, first tournament and they place higher than the ceiling you put on them, and that was a placing from inControl of all people. They are much more capable than you are giving them credit for, and 8th Tyranids are more than capable of rising past the limitations you've decided they have on them. I don't agree with everything in gameandwatch's post but I strongly agree with the bit you quoted on attitudes and results. Its just wrong to say we can't win top competitive tournaments - we can. Does that mean we will, not necessarily, there's a bunch of armies who can come first place and only one person gets it at the end of the day. There's no reason it won't be Tyranids even if it isn't as likely as AM.

How neccessary are adrenal glands and toxin sacs on Tyranids?

 BrotherGecko wrote:
How neccessary are adrenal glands and toxin sacs on Tyranids?

Really depends on the unit. I like Adrenal Glands on anything that is deepstriking, to make that charge a little shorter. 8" is much more likely than 9" to be rolled after all. I have found that Toxin sacks are too pricey to be worth it to me in most cases, but Im sure someone has found a use for them.

Talking about the limitations of a pure Nid army is pretty realistic. Mixed Nids certainly are more competitive. Really glad they are getting Codex sooner rather than later, along with Eldar they are the 2 main armies most in need of a codex.

 BrotherGecko wrote:
How neccessary are adrenal glands and toxin sacs on Tyranids?

Well, the basic "rule" is to avoid them, and just buy more dudz. But for a Deep Striker, tossing in Adrenal sometimes makes sense. Toxic looks cool, but it costs more than it gives. I for one Love the idea of Acid Claw Stealers! But it cost too much to use, exept in PL play. Then you can toss some in and see how they play.

I just can't see toxin sacs being that useful, but maybe there's a combo that makes them worth the points. Adrenal glands seem like a good investment though, gotta make those charges.

 SHUPPET wrote:


He didn't say you were having fun wrong, he said it wasn't a good attitude to have competitively. And it's not. You've decided these limitations are there, when in reality I don't think it's the case at all - If you are talking about high possibility of dropping a match or two out of 8 - that's there for almost every army in the game except the utmost top 1 or 2 OP armies. And you said Nids couldn't go further than 4-2 at NOVA so you're already factually incorrect on that one, first tournament and they place higher than the ceiling you put on them, and that was a placing from inControl of all people. They are much more capable than you are giving them credit for, and 8th Tyranids are more than capable of rising past the limitations you've decided they have on them. I don't agree with everything in gameandwatch's post but I strongly agree with the bit you quoted on attitudes and results. Its just wrong to say we can't win top competitive tournaments - we can. Does that mean we will, not necessarily, there's a bunch of armies who can come first place and only one person gets it at the end of the day. There's no reason it won't be Tyranids even if it isn't as likely as AM.

Actually there are reasons. Pure Tyranids do not match up well against competitive Guard or against competitive CSM. The fact that someone won more games than my "reasonable expectation" isn't shocking to me at all. A "reasonable expectation" does not mean that surpassing 4-2 is an impossibility. It's all about matchups and since Geoff lost early, he got bracketed lower and never had to face the armies that were on the top tables. Anyone can go 6-0 in a tournament if they get great matchups throughout. My point is simply that we do not match up well with two of the predominant top tier competitive builds right now. Agree with it or not if you will - I have actually played Nids (mixed and pure) against top tier Guard and chaos lists run by GT winning players. Regardless of how you feel, it's a bad matchup for Nids.

And you're right - most armies other than chaos and guard will have difficulty beating those armies because of how good they are at the moment. So to say that if you win your first 3 games and have to play against those really tough lists, you probably will drop 2 out of 3 is in fact a likely outcome. No amount of postitive thinking can fix that.

Worth pointing out though that I'm not downing on Nids. They are really good and can go toe to toe with most armies in the game, no matter what the build. Saying "there not as good as competitive guard or csm" really is more indicative of the current game state than the state of our army.

xmbk wrote:
Talking about the limitations of a pure Nid army is pretty realistic. Mixed Nids certainly are more competitive. Really glad they are getting Codex sooner rather than later, along with Eldar they are the 2 main armies most in need of a codex.

I would've actually put GSC ahead of us. Nids have some near top tier options, GSC are just a desolate wasteland of overpriced options.

 luke1705 wrote:

Worth pointing out though that I'm not downing on Nids. They are really good and can go toe to toe with most armies in the game, no matter what the build. Saying "there not as good as competitive guard or csm" really is more indicative of the current game state than the state of our army.

Thats because other units are better at shooting and shooting is better then close combat. Thats why the 'simple straightforward' tyranid armylists bite the dust. A manticore could take down a trygon prime in 2 turns costing about half. Conscripts with orders are better then devourer gaunts. Think outside the box and have a all round strategy or be taken down.

 jifel wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:
How neccessary are adrenal glands and toxin sacs on Tyranids?

Really depends on the unit. I like Adrenal Glands on anything that is deepstriking, to make that charge a little shorter. 8" is much more likely than 9" to be rolled after all. I have found that Toxin sacks are too pricey to be worth it to me in most cases, but Im sure someone has found a use for them.

In contrast, as a swarmer, I don't put 'em on anything. more bodies. MORE BODIES!

 jifel wrote:

xmbk wrote:
Talking about the limitations of a pure Nid army is pretty realistic. Mixed Nids certainly are more competitive. Really glad they are getting Codex sooner rather than later, along with Eldar they are the 2 main armies most in need of a codex.

I would've actually put GSC ahead of us. Nids have some near top tier options, GSC are just a desolate wasteland of overpriced options.

Lmao RIP the 15 minutes of fame for the 10 point GSC stealer

 luke1705 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:


He didn't say you were having fun wrong, he said it wasn't a good attitude to have competitively. And it's not. You've decided these limitations are there, when in reality I don't think it's the case at all - If you are talking about high possibility of dropping a match or two out of 8 - that's there for almost every army in the game except the utmost top 1 or 2 OP armies. And you said Nids couldn't go further than 4-2 at NOVA so you're already factually incorrect on that one, first tournament and they place higher than the ceiling you put on them, and that was a placing from inControl of all people. They are much more capable than you are giving them credit for, and 8th Tyranids are more than capable of rising past the limitations you've decided they have on them. I don't agree with everything in gameandwatch's post but I strongly agree with the bit you quoted on attitudes and results. Its just wrong to say we can't win top competitive tournaments - we can. Does that mean we will, not necessarily, there's a bunch of armies who can come first place and only one person gets it at the end of the day. There's no reason it won't be Tyranids even if it isn't as likely as AM.

Actually there are reasons. Pure Tyranids do not match up well against competitive Guard or against competitive CSM. The fact that someone won more games than my "reasonable expectation" isn't shocking to me at all. A "reasonable expectation" does not mean that surpassing 4-2 is an impossibility. It's all about matchups and since Geoff lost early, he got bracketed lower and never had to face the armies that were on the top tables. Anyone can go 6-0 in a tournament if they get great matchups throughout. My point is simply that we do not match up well with two of the predominant top tier competitive builds right now. Agree with it or not if you will - I have actually played Nids (mixed and pure) against top tier Guard and chaos lists run by GT winning players. Regardless of how you feel, it's a bad matchup for Nids.

And you're right - most armies other than chaos and guard will have difficulty beating those armies because of how good they are at the moment. So to say that if you win your first 3 games and have to play against those really tough lists, you probably will drop 2 out of 3 is in fact a likely outcome. No amount of postitive thinking can fix that.

Worth pointing out though that I'm not downing on Nids. They are really good and can go toe to toe with most armies in the game, no matter what the build. Saying "there not as good as competitive guard or csm" really is more indicative of the current game state than the state of our army.

AM is a bad match up for half the meta. Hell AM vs itself is technically a 50/50 to make it past - one of the AM players is going home. A high chance of going home at some point is what every single army has. Tyranid's having a bad match-up vs one or two armies is not some incredible handicap that makes it impossible to win a tourney. If Nids aren't a competitive army, then there is only 2-3 competitive armies in the game, and that's simply not the case, balance isn't perfect but it's better than it's ever been, and you can most definitely compete with any level of expectation with this army, even if the road is slightly more treacherous for Nids than it is for AM.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wakshaani wrote:

 jifel wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:
How neccessary are adrenal glands and toxin sacs on Tyranids?

Really depends on the unit. I like Adrenal Glands on anything that is deepstriking, to make that charge a little shorter. 8" is much more likely than 9" to be rolled after all. I have found that Toxin sacks are too pricey to be worth it to me in most cases, but Im sure someone has found a use for them.

In contrast, as a swarmer, I don't put 'em on anything. more bodies. MORE BODIES!

I think they are pretty good on Warriors. Warriors generally check out at +30pts each, with AG only costing 1 extra point. That's like 10% the cost of putting AG on an equal amount of points worth of Termagants. Giving AG to two entire max 9 man squads of Warriors is still less than 20 pts, so it's not like you're even losing bodies to buy it.

Aside from that, AG on maybe Trygon's, maybe not though. On everything else I don't think it's worth at all. Definitely more points for bodies

Brace for a Tyranid curve ball;

Outrider
Hive Tyrant with wings, rending, stranglethorn

6x Hive Crones

2x Biovores
1x Biovore

Supreme Command
5x Magus
1x Familiar

Brigade
3x Magus
3x10 Neophytes

Karl is currently Sweden's #1 ranked 40K player, usually playing nids and/or cult. He's had success with this list in the recent ETC and also grabbed 2nd place at a major ITC tournament.

You can read about it here: http://thetyranidhive.proboards.com/thread/53497/magos-crone-spam

 luke1705 wrote:
Geoff Robinson did go 5-1 and place 40th at NOVA, losing only to Ynnari. But he also failed to matchup against Chaos except for Death Guard and only played IG once (which, to his credit, he did win).

Where do you get your info? Would like to read his tournament report.

Just have to say, I am in love with the Hierophant! Our shop has been following the Konor Campaign and seeing as this week's theme was Lord of War units it seemed a good opportunity to test him out.


I ended up with a 3000 point list with the Hierophant supported by 90 Termagants and 3 Tervigons vs a mixed Chaos list with over a hundred Poxwalkers and 3-4 Daemon Princes among other things. We opted to go with Narrative mode since it would allow him to re-summon his hardest hitters when slain and allowed me to happily spam Catalyst everywhere (very fun with Pyro-Acid Blood on the Hierophant). I ended up loosing on objectives due to running out of time, but the big bug proved itself by killing all of the Daemon Princes, Typhus, a Bloat Drone, and a Nurgle Daemon Lord post-summoning (1-volly from the Dire Bio-Cannons did 44 wounds) while absorbing a disproportionate amount of damage and ending the game with 27 wounds remaining. Termagants also proved highly annoying and actually killed quite a bit of infantry before getting stuck in an unending attrition fight with Poxwalkers (the Termagants were actually winning, but very slowly). We both ended up having a blast and it was a nice change of pace from the usual.

jifel wrote:

xmbk wrote:
Talking about the limitations of a pure Nid army is pretty realistic. Mixed Nids certainly are more competitive. Really glad they are getting Codex sooner rather than later, along with Eldar they are the 2 main armies most in need of a codex.

I would've actually put GSC ahead of us. Nids have some near top tier options, GSC are just a desolate wasteland of overpriced options.

I don't think they will be getting a book for awhile, as the lack of the <faction> keyword leads me to suspect they are pretty far out in development given that most of the codexes released thus far had said keyword in their indexes entries and they did have a plethora of sub-factions in the 7th edition GSC book. On the other hand, it also wouldn't surprise me if they were to get a wave release of some sort since they still need an Aberrant kit among other things.

Also it probably doesn't mean much, but my win/loss rate is actually better with my Genestealer Cult than my Tyranids.

N.I.B. wrote:Brace for a Tyranid curve ball;

Outrider
Hive Tyrant with wings, rending, stranglethorn

6x Hive Crones

2x Biovores
1x Biovore

Supreme Command
5x Magus
1x Familiar

Brigade
3x Magus
3x10 Neophytes

Looks like an evolution of the Lictorshame list, with Cult Ambushing Magi and Neophytes taking the place of Lictors/Rippers and Hive Crones replacing the old Flyrants. Lots of mortal wound generation potential by the look of it, though part of me wonders if it wouldn't be more efficient to drop the Familiar to upgrade a few of the Crones to Harpies since they offer another source of Spore Mines and their Sonic Screech makes them a good counter to the Counter Assault stratagem and "always swings first" abilities.

At the risk of seeming somewhat self-serving, I don't suppose you could post the above in the GSC tactica thread as well? Would be a good example of a hybrid list.

 SHUPPET wrote:

luke1705 wrote:

 gameandwatch wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
Tyranids are great as long as you don't want to win a very competitive tournament. You could absolutely go 2-1 at a RTT or 4-2 at a GT but that's about as far as you can reasonably expect to get.

But at any non-top tier tournament level, they're great. They have a lot of tools and can overwhelm a fair amount of armies. They really only have trouble against giant amounts of screening units.

Im sorry but that is the absolute WORST attitude to have playing an army. With the flexibility of the current army and edition, Nids can be top tier in the right hands.

....

Give them a try, you might be surprised!

Not really sure how me saying that Nids weren't going to win NOVA amounts to having fun wrong. Nids are my first love and I'm very excited to see what the codex has in store. I never said that they were bad - just that they have some bad matchups at the highest levels of competition. As far as giving them a try, I have and I will continue to do so. But if you try to pit them against a guard gun line, an optimized CSM list or many other of the upper tier tournament lists, you'll struggle mightily. As the top Tyranid player, Geoff Robinson did go 5-1 and place 40th at NOVA, losing only to Ynnari. But he also failed to matchup against Chaos except for Death Guard and only played IG once (which, to his credit, he did win).

In any case, sorry that you disagree with my assessment of where Tyranids are right now. It is literally miles better than we have been in a long time, and I'm very happy. Just wanted to put a realistic ceiling on how people could expect to do at a large event.

He didn't say you were having fun wrong, he said it wasn't a good attitude to have competitively. And it's not. You've decided these limitations are there, when in reality I don't think it's the case at all - If you are talking about high possibility of dropping a match or two out of 8 - that's there for almost every army in the game except the utmost top 1 or 2 OP armies. And you said Nids couldn't go further than 4-2 at NOVA so you're already factually incorrect on that one, first tournament and they place higher than the ceiling you put on them, and that was a placing from inControl of all people. They are much more capable than you are giving them credit for, and 8th Tyranids are more than capable of rising past the limitations you've decided they have on them. I don't agree with everything in gameandwatch's post but I strongly agree with the bit you quoted on attitudes and results. Its just wrong to say we can't win top competitive tournaments - we can. Does that mean we will, not necessarily, there's a bunch of armies who can come first place and only one person gets it at the end of the day. There's no reason it won't be Tyranids even if it isn't as likely as AM.

Yeah for sure, I was in no way attacking your aesthetic, love or dedication to the game. In a competitive scene, there can be no such thing as a no win scenario, unless you deliberately leave out tools you would otherwise require to engage certain units or armies. Maybe more so in 7th, where every game essentially boiled down to rock/paper/scissors, in this edition, anything can literally engage anything. The change to the wound table alone opened up SO many avenues for nids that we didn't previously have. For instance, in the previous edition(s), we struggled with anti-tank, like knights, because all we had at our disposal were units that were mediocre at best at handling even medium armor. Now with degenerative armor stats(ap) and S5 being pretty much the magic number, suddenly even termagants can damage a knight.

This was the point of y comment, that to defeat yourself when facing certain threats before the game has even begun is not a good attitude to have. Yes, in some circumstances we might struggle with guard, but is the army perfect? Is every player top tier? Will they not make mistakes? It isn't like having to face undeniable rerollable 2+ invul saves of the previous edition, everything is killable now and now again like in 4th-5th edition, people get the willies playing against nids now.

Personally, i will never use AM units in my lists from a simple personal stance, but I have been using a unit that has been largely panned, Acolyte Hybrids, and they have been CRUSHING. I run units of 15-20 w/ 6 saws, with a primus and a magus nearby, throw might on them, and have them ambush towards a hard target. That unit evaporates a knight in one turn, no questions asked. Hell, with above average rolls, they one shot a Garg Squiggoth turn 1, just silly. Rock saws are SO good, and with the primus, acolytes cant miss.

And SHUPPET, you can best believe I will also be hopping on that warrior train, but with the codex announcement, I have decided to hold off on my nid development until that book drops as seeing the other codices, I have a feeling it will dramatically influence the way I want to run the army...CANT WAIT GAAAAHHHHH

 N.I.B. wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
Geoff Robinson did go 5-1 and place 40th at NOVA, losing only to Ynnari. But he also failed to matchup against Chaos except for Death Guard and only played IG once (which, to his credit, he did win).

Where do you get your info? Would like to read his tournament report.

Best coast pairings app. You'll need to subscribe to see the past events but it's totally worth it. No report - just lists and scores

Strat_N8 wrote:Just have to say, I am in love with the Hierophant! Our shop has been following the Konor Campaign and seeing as this week's theme was Lord of War units it seemed a good opportunity to test him out.


I ended up with a 3000 point list with the Hierophant supported by 90 Termagants and 3 Tervigons vs a mixed Chaos list with over a hundred Poxwalkers and 3-4 Daemon Princes among other things. We opted to go with Narrative mode since it would allow him to re-summon his hardest hitters when slain and allowed me to happily spam Catalyst everywhere (very fun with Pyro-Acid Blood on the Hierophant). I ended up loosing on objectives due to running out of time, but the big bug proved itself by killing all of the Daemon Princes, Typhus, a Bloat Drone, and a Nurgle Daemon Lord post-summoning (1-volly from the Dire Bio-Cannons did 44 wounds) while absorbing a disproportionate amount of damage and ending the game with 27 wounds remaining.

Wow Strat, sounds incredible! Not many people own the model, I don't know anyone who has actually played with one yet, but Heirophant sounds like a machine! I think I might look to save up for one as my next addition, it looks so cool and at higher points he sounds like fun. Out of curiosity, how do you think it would perform at 2000 pts when it's literally the only thing on your side of the table?

gameandwatch wrote:

And SHUPPET, you can best believe I will also be hopping on that warrior train, but with the codex announcement, I have decided to hold off on my nid development until that book drops as seeing the other codices, I have a feeling it will dramatically influence the way I want to run the army...CANT WAIT GAAAAHHHHH

I haven't been paying attention to what they've said the goal is with these dexes... have they said they will have heavy amounts of changes? Tyranid's doesn't seem like a suspect army at all, we aren't causing any problems in the meta and we certainly aren't underpowered, and there seems to be a lot of internal balance, almost every thing except a couple of units have a niche. If GW change much I feel it might be a mistake, but I too might wait and see... when is it coming?

SHUPPET wrote:Wow Strat, sounds incredible! Not many people own the model, I don't know anyone who has actually played with one yet, but Heirophant sounds like a machine! I think I might look to save up for one as my next addition, it looks so cool and at higher points he sounds like fun.

Indeed! It dominated the match both in terms of damage output and its table presence (it absolutely towers over terrain). As far as getting one, it was a birthday present from my brothers. At the time, both had titans of their own (Stompa and Revenant) while I had none so they decided to rectify it in the most generous way possible. Admittedly, both are probably regretting it now seeing as it got so much stronger than its 6th/7th edition version while theirs got a good deal weaker...

SHUPPET wrote:
Out of curiosity, how do you think it would perform at 2000 pts when it's literally the only thing on your side of the table?

I actually did get a ~2000 point game against a local Tau player and it destroyed half his army by turn 4 (he conceded after it nuked his Stormsurge, had a Hammerhead and a half-dead Riptide left to threaten it). At 2000 points alone it would be very reliant on match-ups to win, as it has no real scoring capability so it would be forced to table the enemy. It would excel against things like Razorback spam and similar lists, but things like Brimstone spam are a nightmare for it since it has trouble killing cheap infantry and it does not like mortal wounds that bypass its otherwise impressive defenses.

To put it another way, it would be a Deathstar that acts in an almost perfect replica of the original Death Star: It wrecks big things in a single shot but struggles with small targets and has a critical vulnerability that may be exploited.

SHUPPET wrote:I haven't been paying attention to what they've said the goal is with these dexes... have they said they will have heavy amounts of changes? Tyranid's doesn't seem like a suspect army at all, we aren't causing any problems in the meta and we certainly aren't underpowered, and there seems to be a lot of internal balance, almost every thing except a couple of units have a niche. If GW change much I feel it might be a mistake, but I too might wait and see... when is it coming?

It is supposedly planned for a November release ('Nidvember?). The codexes thus far have mostly just tinkered with point costs and buffed weaker units (in the Chaos codex for instance Possessed gained an extra wound for free and Obliterators had the number of shots on their random guns doubled) with the biggest changes being the various faction-specific stratagems and sub-faction special rules. I'm curious as to what our Hive Fleet special rules will be, but am expecting Behemoth = melee + 'nidzilla, Kraken = stealthy, Leviathan = all rounder, Gorgon = swarms, Jormungandr = tunneling units. Also I am very curious as to what Hydra is up to given it is given such attention in the BRB and its unusual focus on assimilating other Hive Fleets over standard harvesting behaviors.

 gameandwatch wrote:

Personally, i will never use AM units in my lists from a simple personal stance, but I have been using a unit that has been largely panned, Acolyte Hybrids, and they have been CRUSHING. I run units of 15-20 w/ 6 saws, with a primus and a magus nearby, throw might on them, and have them ambush towards a hard target. That unit evaporates a knight in one turn, no questions asked. Hell, with above average rolls, they one shot a Garg Squiggoth turn 1, just silly. Rock saws are SO good, and with the primus, acolytes cant miss.

A lot of it is from people being turned off by their loss of half of their rending attacks compared to their 7th edition version paired with a cost increase. They are still quite serviceable as special weapon squads for ripping up big things but most people in 7th ran them without upgrades and relied on weight of attacks to pull things down. Glad to hear they are working for you though!

 SHUPPET wrote:

Strat_N8 wrote:Just have to say, I am in love with the Hierophant! Our shop has been following the Konor Campaign and seeing as this week's theme was Lord of War units it seemed a good opportunity to test him out.


I ended up with a 3000 point list with the Hierophant supported by 90 Termagants and 3 Tervigons vs a mixed Chaos list with over a hundred Poxwalkers and 3-4 Daemon Princes among other things. We opted to go with Narrative mode since it would allow him to re-summon his hardest hitters when slain and allowed me to happily spam Catalyst everywhere (very fun with Pyro-Acid Blood on the Hierophant). I ended up loosing on objectives due to running out of time, but the big bug proved itself by killing all of the Daemon Princes, Typhus, a Bloat Drone, and a Nurgle Daemon Lord post-summoning (1-volly from the Dire Bio-Cannons did 44 wounds) while absorbing a disproportionate amount of damage and ending the game with 27 wounds remaining.

Wow Strat, sounds incredible! Not many people own the model, I don't know anyone who has actually played with one yet, but Heirophant sounds like a machine! I think I might look to save up for one as my next addition, it looks so cool and at higher points he sounds like fun. Out of curiosity, how do you think it would perform at 2000 pts when it's literally the only thing on your side of the table?

gameandwatch wrote:

And SHUPPET, you can best believe I will also be hopping on that warrior train, but with the codex announcement, I have decided to hold off on my nid development until that book drops as seeing the other codices, I have a feeling it will dramatically influence the way I want to run the army...CANT WAIT GAAAAHHHHH

I haven't been paying attention to what they've said the goal is with these dexes... have they said they will have heavy amounts of changes? Tyranid's doesn't seem like a suspect army at all, we aren't causing any problems in the meta and we certainly aren't underpowered, and there seems to be a lot of internal balance, almost every thing except a couple of units have a niche. If GW change much I feel it might be a mistake, but I too might wait and see... when is it coming?

Yeah less about unit changes and adjustments, more about how the strategems and hive fleets(chapter tactics) can really alter how an army is played, and I want to finally see us with some yummy relics. And Nidvember is fo-realz

And I totally agree Strat_N8, how Acolytes function now is different from their core purpose in 7th. They actually have more attacks then I first realized, with the base 2 and the extra from the knife, so 3 base is not bad considering. I think 11 points is too expensive for a T3 5+ save model, maybe 9 points would be more fitting, but they have been my easy answer to big things for a while now. Running them in a tournament tomorrow, so Ill have more feedback to report.

Well...heres my "big" prediction for the Dex....(add: drum roll).Spinefists will x2 A seeing as the were "twinlinked" and most anything else with twinlinked got doubled.

I don't know what to expect, but some "Fleet Tactics" would be very cool. Maybe some gear could be tweaked, and Zoeys are a little expensive for what they bring right now. Veno's likely need some work as well.

My mad hope is a super heavy plastic model to kick off the new dex. Can you imagine what Nids would play like with something like, "Out of the shadows!" This Hive Fleet : copy/paste Alpha Legion or Raven Guard, including Strategems. With a Telepathic Hive Mind "I am Alpharius" makes total sense! So unless they totally drop the ball, this Dex ought to be a very good one!

Hormagaunts need to hit on 3's, at the very least.

I hoping/predicting tranid prime will buff all nid units with re-roll 1's to hit (ala Space marine LT's) and Warrior types with +1 hit, also for heaven's sake give him a wing option.....

I'm hoping for scything talons to be a melee booster weapon to promote mixed CCW weapons. Something like it gives reroll 1s to all melee weapons the Nid has.

Crushing Claws need to come down in points and lose the -1 to hit. That -1 makes them unusable on 4+ to hit units, especially without aura HQ.

I want to see the Carnifex have its strenght jump up to 8. So that talon fexes can affect vehicles and claws demolish vehicles.

I don't understand that trouble with AM. I think we are one of the best armies against them. It isn't a fun game for sure, but if we rush into their screen, it comes down to killing it and we win or not a lose. A lot of armies don't have that good of a chance against them. I suffer more against Bobby-G now that he can attack even after I kill the bugger with their stratagem.

I also run pure nids with no allies and I do really well this edition. We have so many tools to deal with so many things and this current iteration of Nids forces a lot of questions on our opponents to answer or get overrun.

Well Dakka, I've been noodling around Nids in 8th, and I thought I'd share some of my army building "trix". I hope this will be useful for some, sorry to the rest for repeating things you already know. Disclaimer: I am starting a new set of painkillers, so check the math twice!


I tend to think in "Templates" or "Blocks" for example:

"Sandblaster" Template;

Tervigon, Scything, Stinger....250
Trevigon, as above

Termagant Brood, x20+ 10 Devilgaunts 160
as above
as above

so that runs about...980, add say 40 points for an emergency Summon...for 1020 from this you can build a very effective force.


Example two, "Gotchya" Two Brood lords, two Broods of x20 Stealers, and Two Trygons with Adrenals....around 980 add some table units, and you can win plenty of games. (For example add Sandblaster to Gotchya for 2000 )


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So lets try something else,say going "Counter Meta"

I will try to build a Force that plays like Space Wolves, to counter AM Conscript spam.

So what I want to do , is pop up close and shoot like crazy. Then only charge when it seems like a good move.


Warriors are cool...right? Well they shoot real good anyway.

Warriors, x6, Rending Claws, Devourers, Adrenal Glands. +3 Warriors, Rending Claws, Adrenal, Strangle Cannon...Add in a Trygon, Adrenal as a "Taxi"....456 points? They show up at 9+" shoot like crazy, and charge if it seems useful, Trygon does the same.

Whats wrong? oh, table presence...


How about Swarmlord, with some Swarms? Swarmlord, Hormagaunt Brood x30, Hormagaunt Brood x30.....600?

Need one more...OK a Tyranid Prime, might even buff the Warriors some times: Prime, Twin Bone , Deathspitter, Adrenal......113?

Lets toss in a second Warrior+ Taxi.......456

I think that adds to...1625 Lots of room to customise, and you can play like you're Space Marines for the most part.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and using "Blocks" makes adding GSC easy as well.

Timeshadow wrote:
I hoping/predicting tranid prime will buff all nid units with re-roll 1's to hit (ala Space marine LT's) and Warrior types with +1 hit, also for heaven's sake give him a wing option.....

That should be reversed. All nids get +1 to hit and warriors reroll 1s. A bunch of nid units already get reroll 1s for having 20+ models in the unit.

Lance845 wrote:

Timeshadow wrote:
I hoping/predicting tranid prime will buff all nid units with re-roll 1's to hit (ala Space marine LT's) and Warrior types with +1 hit, also for heaven's sake give him a wing option.....

That should be reversed. All nids get +1 to hit and warriors reroll 1s. A bunch of nid units already get reroll 1s for having 20+ models in the unit.

I think he was saying that Primes should have a reroll 1's to hit bubble for everyone in addition to the +1 to hit they bestow Warriors specifically. Also the reroll for 20-strong broods is actually for 1's to wound. Hormagaunts get reroll 1's to hit from Scything Talons by default and Termagants get it from Tervigons.

If anything were getting an extra effect bubble, I'd love to see something for Hive Tyrants. Apart from their 12'' synapse bubble they don't really have anything unique to support the rest of the army with. Would be nice if they revisited the Indescribable Horror, Hive Commander, and Old Adversary abilities.

pinecone77 wrote:

Warriors are cool...right? Well they shoot real good anyway.

Warriors, x6, Rending Claws, Devourers, Adrenal Glands. +3 Warriors, Rending Claws, Adrenal, Strangle Cannon...Add in a Trygon, Adrenal as a "Taxi"....456 points? They show up at 9+ shoot like crazy, and charge if it seems useful, Trygon does the same.

I'm partial to a mix of Boneswords and Deathspitters personally. Boneswords add an extra attack with fixed AP-2 and Deathspitters have the advantage of being able to hurt T8 and T9 on 5's instead of 6's while also having a bit of AP to negate cover. Admittedly, I get most of my Rending from Genestealers or Acolytes, so I'm a bit biased.

Warriors with Boneswords, AG, and Deathspitters! Perfecto

 SHUPPET wrote:
Warriors with Boneswords, AG, and Deathspitters! Perfecto

True But perfect is expensive. So I usually look for "good enough".

pinecone77 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Warriors with Boneswords, AG, and Deathspitters! Perfecto

True But perfect is expensive. So I usually look for "good enough".

Actually not really, they are extremely points efficient and the upgrades are priced really nice and cheap. You could tack on a bunch of gak, but BS + DS w AG is imo the most efficient way to run them. Deathspitters self explanatory, BS is by FAR the most efficient melee upgrade, AG isn't necessary by any means but seeing as they can run and gun nicely and it's 1ppm on an Elite unit (total 9points per max size squad) you probably should unless you really need the upgrade elsewhere

 SHUPPET wrote:

pinecone77 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Warriors with Boneswords, AG, and Deathspitters! Perfecto

True But perfect is expensive. So I usually look for "good enough".

Actually not really, they are extremely points efficient and the upgrades are priced really nice and cheap. You could tack on a bunch of gak, but BS + DS w AG is imo the most efficient way to run them. Deathspitters self explanatory, BS is by FAR the most efficient melee upgrade, AG isn't necessary by any means but seeing as they can run and gun nicely and it's 1ppm on an Elite unit (total 9points per max size squad) you probably should unless you really need the upgrade elsewhere

Drop the AG and take shrikes instead. For 5 more PPM then what you pay for the warriors with the AG you double your M attribute and gain fly. A significant upgrade for dirt cheap.

I cannot stress enough how much better shrikes are then warriors if you intend to do any running around/melee. Warriors are only better for sitting in back mid field synapse support and firing off guns. Any melee shrikes are better.

 Lance845 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

pinecone77 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Warriors with Boneswords, AG, and Deathspitters! Perfecto

True But perfect is expensive. So I usually look for "good enough".

Actually not really, they are extremely points efficient and the upgrades are priced really nice and cheap. You could tack on a bunch of gak, but BS + DS w AG is imo the most efficient way to run them. Deathspitters self explanatory, BS is by FAR the most efficient melee upgrade, AG isn't necessary by any means but seeing as they can run and gun nicely and it's 1ppm on an Elite unit (total 9points per max size squad) you probably should unless you really need the upgrade elsewhere

Drop the AG and take shrikes instead. For 5 more PPM then what you pay for the warriors with the AG you double your M attribute and gain fly. A significant upgrade for dirt cheap.

I cannot stress enough how much better shrikes are then warriors if you intend to do any running around/melee. Warriors are only better for sitting in back mid field synapse support and firing off guns. Any melee shrikes are better.

appreciate the suggestion, but I don't think it's that cut and dry.
You should intend to do melee with both.
2 squads of Shrikes is almost another 100 pts on top of 2 squads of Warriors.
Both are very good units, both have their roles.
I would take Shrikes if I had something I could justify dropping for it, but I'd rather move them up the board on foot for 100 pts cheaper.
Warrior's shooting is top notch, their durability is aces, and they can melee hard when they make it there, they don't need to flap ahead of the army on every build. Also, if they are being used with a Prime, Shrikes would have to stay at the Prime's speed anyway to get the buff.

Shrikes are good, but Warriors are just as good. It's list dependant. Shrikes are quite pricey.

 SHUPPET wrote:

pinecone77 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Warriors with Boneswords, AG, and Deathspitters! Perfecto

True But perfect is expensive. So I usually look for "good enough".

Actually not really, they are extremely points efficient and the upgrades are priced really nice and cheap. You could tack on a bunch of gak, but BS + DS w AG is imo the most efficient way to run them. Deathspitters self explanatory, BS is by FAR the most efficient melee upgrade, AG isn't necessary by any means but seeing as they can run and gun nicely and it's 1ppm on an Elite unit (total 9points per max size squad) you probably should unless you really need the upgrade elsewhere

Foot slogging I think you're making some sense. But in that list I'm paying 180 per Brood for a Trygon tunnel taxi, so I'm looking to save points anywhere I can find 'em. The Prime is kitted with Adrenal, Twin Bone, and Deathspitter though. Of course he's legging it.....supervising Hormagaunts most likely.

So played some more games with my nids, thought I'd share my experiences;

- Hive Tyrant is squishy
- Trygons are decently blenders
- Exocrines, once setup, are deadly
- Deep striking rippers into blocking positions is really useful!
- Massed Biovores are great. The shooting their mines absorbs I think exceeds the benefits of the wounds they do!

I have an odd/interisting comparison to put to you all.

Dual Monstrous Rending claws Hive tyrant vs Broodlord.

Hive Tyrant is 144 pts with this load out coming in 18pts cheaper than the Brood lord.

For 18 pts less you get 4" extra synapse, an extra psychic action and power each turn, +1 Str/Tough, 4 more wounds.

You loose 1" from move, Adv and assault, Genestealer buff, and character meat shield powers.

Now if you are using genestealers then it would be foolish not to have a broodlord but if you want to just have a fast assaulter that can wreck face the Tyrant is actually very affordable. Just to note for 10 points(Edit sry 20 pts) you can give the tyrant his slimer maggots back and still be 8 pts cheaper(Edit: sry 2 pts more than the Broodlord) than the Broodlord but have an 18" str 7 -1 ap assault weapon as well.

Discuss.....

HT is 10 wounds, it can be target. BL has less than 10 so it cant be targeted without the Snipe rule.

This is the main difference.

Anything that can be shot at, better do something while that is happening. This is most often shooting back. But it can also be being too cheap or unimportant to be shot in the first place i.e. wasting the opps ammo.
Pure CC HT does neither.

 SHUPPET wrote:

Shrikes are good, but Warriors are just as good. It's list dependant. Shrikes are quite pricey.

Both units are casual play only, imo. Shrikes are mediocre and Warriors slightly worse. A shame, since I love the model. Warriors lack a role. What is it they do better than any other unit? If I want scoring troops I have deepstriking Rippers that are easy to hide and no longer require synapse (to be honest they didn't need synapse before 8th ed).
The only thing I might consider Warriors for in a serious list is babysitting a gunline, they do it cheaper than a Tyranid Prime (60pts compared to 100pts) with the very real drawback that they can be targeted. If Forgeworld (Malanthrope) was allowed in my area, they would never come off the shelf.

Shrikes at least can provide some forward synapse while holding their own, but they still cost too much for their squishiness.

 N.I.B. wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

Shrikes are good, but Warriors are just as good. It's list dependant. Shrikes are quite pricey.

Both units are casual play only, imo. Shrikes are mediocre and Warriors slightly worse. A shame, since I love the model. Warriors lack a role. What is it they do better than any other unit? If I want scoring troops I have deepstriking Rippers that are easy to hide and no longer require synapse (to be honest they didn't need synapse before 8th ed).
The only thing I might consider Warriors for in a serious list is babysitting a gunline, they do it cheaper than a Tyranid Prime (60pts compared to 100pts) with the very real drawback that they can be targeted. If Forgeworld (Malanthrope) was allowed in my area, they would never come off the shelf.

Shrikes at least can provide some forward synapse while holding their own, but they still cost too much for their squishiness.

Warriors don't do anything better than one of the other options, but do all of them at the same time for a combined cost that is extremely cheap. The typical complaint that generalist models are bad in 40k is void in this case, since they can actually do all of them at the same time turn after turn.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
HT is 10 wounds, it can be target. BL has less than 10 so it cant be targeted without the Snipe rule.

This is the main difference.

I know the Tyrant can be a target but for the extra you get along with it being a beast in CC they are really putting a lot of value on character under 10 wound status.

Is this:
you get 4" extra synapse, an extra psychic action and power each turn, +1 Str/Tough, 4 more wounds.

Worth loosing this:
You loose 1" from move, Adv and assault, Genestealer buff, and character meat shield powers.

With 18 pts to spare.

We are 2 moinths from a codex. Price changes will likely be in the mix along with relic options and different hive fleet boosts.

I suspect a lot of this "what is good what is best" discussion is meaningless for the next 2 months.

 Lance845 wrote:
We are 2 moinths from a codex. Price changes will likely be in the mix along with relic options and different hive fleet boosts.

I suspect a lot of this "what is good what is best" discussion is meaningless for the next 2 months.

Yep this, i honestly see no reason to compare units right now. Just play games for fun and get ready to swap some arms out.

Wait, do fidderent hivefleets have different skills? I have never seen this with the tyranids.

 Lance845 wrote:
We are 2 months from a codex. Price changes will likely be in the mix along with relic options and different hive fleet boosts.

I suspect a lot of this "what is good what is best" discussion is meaningless for the next 2 months.

but in the meantime I plan to keep playing what I have as you said it's still 2 months away and I hope to get at least 5-10 games in before that.

I've built a fairly scary (it seems to me) Tyrant swarm list with a Malanthrope 7 Tyrants total (All Mon Rend claws/Deathspitters/3 winged) and the Swarmlord with 3 broods of 3 rippers and a 5 strong brood of Tyrant guard. (Completely experimental not something I would normally play)
Fairly crazy amount of Dakka(84 shots S7 -1 rend BS3+) and 8 smites. All protected by malanthrope and 15 ablative Tyrant guard wounds (which will have catalist ASAP for a 5+)
Super resilient deathstarish list...yes very spammy but I think it could work and with the rippers to DS and cap objectives kinda scary. I have not actually played it but in my head it seems very nasty even against top lists.

Warriors and shrikes seem to be really polarising right now. I personally have a squad of 3 Warriors with only scytals which get used for synapse whenever I can't use a malanthrope. I've got 5 shrikes with deathspitters and boneswords that seem ok, if a little expensive for what they do.

Old One Eye is overlooked in myth opinion - he is the definitive DISTRACTION CARNIFEX - big, scary, cheap, but also able to do some damage if ignored. A list that takes any Carnifex would be stupid not to take him.

Speaking of regular carnifex, I find them to be really good. I have one devourer-fex and one scytal-fex, and whilst they dont usually kill anything, they cost around 200 points and soak up a disproportionate amount of fire.

I'm experimenting with the idea of larger numbers of rippers to be used to encircle enemies and limit the enemies ability to fall back - they're incredibly cheap at only 3.3 points per wound and can pop up all over the place.

C4790M wrote:


I'm experimenting with the idea of larger numbers of rippers to be used to encircle enemies and limit the enemies ability to fall back - they're incredibly cheap at only 3.3 points per wound and can pop up all over the place.

I wonder is 2 broods of 9 rippers enough models to completely surround a unit from deepstrike? That's 198 pts you think it would be worth it?

Timeshadow wrote:

C4790M wrote:


I'm experimenting with the idea of larger numbers of rippers to be used to encircle enemies and limit the enemies ability to fall back - they're incredibly cheap at only 3.3 points per wound and can pop up all over the place.

I wonder is 2 broods of 9 rippers enough models to completely surround a unit from deepstrike? That's 198 pts you think it would be worth it?

IMO Nids has one of the best swarms, b.c they can DS. You dont need to surround a unit tho you can make walls and make it much harder for them to move, walling out 2-3 units IMO would be better than surrounding 1 unit.

I am thinking of a Brigade with Rippers 3x3 Troops and FA. Its basically 200pts but i get 3 DSing units and 3 anti-charge units or 3 objective units.

I play DE and i still am using 10 RWF's even with them being 14pts, they are great units outside of Gman spam and Conscript Spam lists, but sense im not fighting thoses i dont need to worry.

Lance845 wrote:We are 2 moinths from a codex. Price changes will likely be in the mix along with relic options and different hive fleet boosts.

I suspect a lot of this "what is good what is best" discussion is meaningless for the next 2 months.

Two points, one we have no idea how much the army will change and we have no reason to believe it will be drastically. The codex is extremely balanced both internally and externally.

Secondly, this comment is as meaningless as you believe the discussion is. Do you want us to just post nothing for the next two months? We still have games to play man.

N.I.B. wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

Shrikes are good, but Warriors are just as good. It's list dependant. Shrikes are quite pricey.

Both units are casual play only, imo. Shrikes are mediocre and Warriors slightly worse. A shame, since I love the model. Warriors lack a role. What is it they do better than any other unit? If I want scoring troops I have deepstriking Rippers that are easy to hide and no longer require synapse (to be honest they didn't need synapse before 8th ed).
The only thing I might consider Warriors for in a serious list is babysitting a gunline, they do it cheaper than a Tyranid Prime (60pts compared to 100pts) with the very real drawback that they can be targeted. If Forgeworld (Malanthrope) was allowed in my area, they would never come off the shelf.

Shrikes at least can provide some forward synapse while holding their own, but they still cost too much for their squishiness.

They are a very durable Elite unit with a lot of +3 S5 AP-1 shooting and a bucket of +2 S4 AP-2 attacks. They provide a Synapse bubble at the same time. I struggle to find a unit that can match what they bring to the table.

 SHUPPET wrote:

Lance845 wrote:We are 2 moinths from a codex. Price changes will likely be in the mix along with relic options and different hive fleet boosts.

I suspect a lot of this "what is good what is best" discussion is meaningless for the next 2 months.

Two points, one we have no idea how much the army will change and we have no reason to believe it will be drastically. The codex is extremely balanced both internally and externally.

Secondly, this comment is as meaningless as you believe the discussion is. Do you want us to just post nothing for the next two months? We still have games to play man.

No. I think the discussion of min maxing and the exact merits of a hive tyrant vs a broodlord is meaningless. I think general tactics, unit synergys, and unit builds and their uses is still very much worth discussing.

What someone does with some rippers is very interesting. Wether or not a hive tryant with free double rending claws is better or worse then a brood lord for the points is likely moot in november.

 Lance845 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

Lance845 wrote:We are 2 moinths from a codex. Price changes will likely be in the mix along with relic options and different hive fleet boosts.

I suspect a lot of this "what is good what is best" discussion is meaningless for the next 2 months.

Two points, one we have no idea how much the army will change and we have no reason to believe it will be drastically. The codex is extremely balanced both internally and externally.

Secondly, this comment is as meaningless as you believe the discussion is. Do you want us to just post nothing for the next two months? We still have games to play man.

No. I think the discussion of min maxing and the exact merits of a hive tyrant vs a broodlord is meaningless. I think general tactics, unit synergys, and unit builds and their uses is still very much worth discussing.

What someone does with some rippers is very interesting. Wether or not a hive tryant with free double rending claws is better or worse then a brood lord for the points is likely moot in november.

But Tyrant synergies with Guard/Malanthrope for a relatively cheap price is something that is worth speaking about. Since The Tyrant is a 2 cast psyker and can be made extremly resilent with guard. The big thing is guard are too expensive to be worth it for one or even two tyrants but if they are protecting a whole swarm of cheap tyrants than I think that's again woth speaking about.

Actually I believe that rumor about a Novermber or earlier codex was redacted/proven to be false. Wouldn't hold your breath for an exceedingly quick codex release. My wallet is really ok with this right now. God bless Morty but he's more expensive to get painted than he is to buy. And he is not cheap

As is, I think the untargetability of the Broodlord is the main draw, as well as the synergy with Genestealers, which I still think are one of our best units. The tyrant really needed to be 9 wounds, but then the tyrant guard have no place in the codex. It's a tough design space

 luke1705 wrote:
Actually I believe that rumor about a Novermber or earlier codex was redacted/proven to be false. Wouldn't hold your breath for an exceedingly quick codex release. My wallet is really ok with this right now. God bless Morty but he's more expensive to get painted than he is to buy. And he is not cheap

As is, I think the untargetability of the Broodlord is the main draw, as well as the synergy with Genestealers, which I still think are one of our best units. The tyrant really needed to be 9 wounds, but then the tyrant guard have no place in the codex. It's a tough design space

I think the 9 - 10 wound for characters should be "unit containing 10 wounds or more", this would make some units like HT 9w but the guard would make him 10+ and target able.

Tyrant Guard already really don't have a place in the Codex. They are too expensive for their role and they move too slowly to keep up with the Hive Tyrant in most cases where it matters.

The idea of a few Hive Tyrants walking with the guard sounds fun, but no way I'd fork out that amount of cash to try it when the lists I run are far more versatile already and plenty effective while using more options.

I just can never seem to justify a Hive Tyrant over a Swarmlord when building a list. He doesn't bring anything I can't elsewhere cheaper and the Swarmy, while more expensive, gives me that extra move,

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
Tyrant Guard already really don't have a place in the Codex. They are too expensive for their role and they move too slowly to keep up with the Hive Tyrant in most cases where it matters.

The idea of a few Hive Tyrants walking with the guard sounds fun, but no way I'd fork out that amount of cash to try it when the lists I run are far more versatile already and plenty effective while using more options.

I just can never seem to justify a Hive Tyrant over a Swarmlord when building a list. He doesn't bring anything I can't elsewhere cheaper and the Swarmy, while more expensive, gives me that extra move,

I honestly never liked Tyrant guards either, i never felt they fit well in with nids, we have gaunts for that reason.

If we had to have them, make them a walking wall for that takes very little damage, like -1 to wound and -1 damage (minimum of 1), so they would be melee warriors basically but tough AF, a T5 or T6 unit with those rules be more fun to play than.... what they are.

 Niiai wrote:
Wait, do different hive fleets have different skills? I have never seen this with the tyranids.

Not skills so much as "personalities".
- Behemoth had an emphasis on an overwhelming sledgehammer approach, simply smashing and swarming their way through obstructions. Original fleet of Old One Eye.
- Kraken favored decentralized hit and fade attacks to probe defenses before converging on vulnerabilities. Original Fleet of the Red Terror.
- Leviathan favors a combined arms approach and greater use of aerial swarms. Original Fleet of Deathleaper.
- Gorgon focused on hyper adaptability over all else, causing it to have a greater reliance on expendable swarm creatures that could be created and modified faster than larger, more time and resource intensive organisms.
- Jormungandr relied fairly heavily on tunneling organisms which would burrow after being dropped on a planet and hibernate below ground until the fleet deemed their numbers sufficient to start wreaking havoc. They have a Genestealer Cult devoted specifically to them (Sons of Jormungandr).
- Naga has little known about it, other than it being the fleet that created the Doom of Malan'tai and it seeming to like subterfuge (most of its attacks are preceded by Genestealer infiltration/infestation). Also had a Genestealer Cult specifically devoted to it (Cult of Veiled Oblivion) .
- Hydra is the new fleet for 8th edition and so far has no specific tactics other than their peculiar focus on assimilating remnants of the prior fleets.

 luke1705 wrote:
The tyrant really needed to be 9 wounds, but then the tyrant guard have no place in the codex. It's a tough design space

They could always copy the Genestealer Cult characters and have the Tyrant Guard act as a squad add-on ala Familiars. They share the same toughness as their boss if I remember correctly and have the same save so it isn't going to cause issues like some of the other mixed model units.

Part of me would love to see a list spamming just Tyrant Guard and Hive Tyrants + Swarmy, if only for the silliness that target priority would be. If they shoot the Tyrant/Swarmy, they either risk enraging all the guards or else have the shots redirected to whoever has Catalyst on them. Shoot the Guards and they allow the Tyrants to run amuck.

 luke1705 wrote:
Actually I believe that rumor about a Novermber or earlier codex was redacted/proven to be false. Wouldn't hold your breath for an exceedingly quick codex release. My wallet is really ok with this right now. God bless Morty but he's more expensive to get painted than he is to buy. And he is not cheap

As is, I think the untargetability of the Broodlord is the main draw, as well as the synergy with Genestealers, which I still think are one of our best units. The tyrant really needed to be 9 wounds, but then the tyrant guard have no place in the codex. It's a tough design space

I havent seen anything that said that got debunked. Any links to source?

I think the tyrant guard need to be expanded to protect more than just tyrants.

 Lance845 wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
Actually I believe that rumor about a Novermber or earlier codex was redacted/proven to be false. Wouldn't hold your breath for an exceedingly quick codex release. My wallet is really ok with this right now. God bless Morty but he's more expensive to get painted than he is to buy. And he is not cheap

As is, I think the untargetability of the Broodlord is the main draw, as well as the synergy with Genestealers, which I still think are one of our best units. The tyrant really needed to be 9 wounds, but then the tyrant guard have no place in the codex. It's a tough design space

I havent seen anything that said that got debunked. Any links to source?

I think the tyrant guard need to be expanded to protect more than just tyrants.

that sounds like a great idea to make it more useful

make it so they can use their ability on any unit once per turn or something.

Or just any nid character. Tyrant Guard protecting OOE? Yes please!

There is a lot of room to explore the "chapter tactics" of Nids. I'm really interested what they will do for the hive fleets. My biggest hope though is that they make a stratagem for "Jones is acting strangely".
We will likely get at least one swarm Stratagem for gaunts to make them neverending.
Hopefully, the new psychic powers will allow us to use more of our psychic nids and make Tyrants more useful.
There is really only a couple units that need some work. We have a great Index entry that should only get better with expanded psychic powers, hive fleet tactics, and Stratagems.

 Strat_N8 wrote:


Part of me would love to see a list spamming just Tyrant Guard and Hive Tyrants + Swarmy, if only for the silliness that target priority would be. If they shoot the Tyrant/Swarmy, they either risk enraging all the guards or else have the shots redirected to whoever has Catalyst on them. Shoot the Guards and they allow the Tyrants to run amuck.

Built a list to do just this and it looks crazy good still need to test it though. Check out my name in the army list section for details I even have a link to a Facebook page with pics.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10159215513985368&set=gm.1886099804748376&type=3&theater&ifg=1

Link to pic on facebook

My wishlist for the codex:


HQ:
- Hive tyrant increased to 12 wounds
- Cost reduction on prime around 10 points.
- Tervigon 20-25 point cost reduction
- Malanthrope targettable even if it is not the closest target (seriously, that thing is huge!). Would put him in line with venomthropes.

Troops:

- Venom sacs on warriors and genestealers down to 3 points and on gaunts down to 1 point

Elite:

- Cost reduction for Tguard crushing claws.
- One more attack to lictors
- Maleceptor psychic overload range increased to 15". One unit can be affected by this ability only once each turn.
- Pyrovores one more attack
- Cost reduction on haruspex

Fast attack:
- Slight cost reductions on chrone and harpy
- Spore mines and mucolids reworked completely.

Dedicated transports:
- Cost reduction on tyrannocite weapons, it's a 5+ platform!

Heavy supports:
- 1 less movement of the stonefex, to put it in line with the regular fex.
- Cost reduction for cfex crushing claws.
- Tyrannofex BS stat decreases later, at 1-3 wounds. It gets crippled too heavily too fast.
- Toxicrebe WS stat decreases later, at 1-3 wounds. It gets crippled too heavily too fast

Fortifications:
- Sporocyst spore node range increased to 18". Again, cost reduction on weapons for a 5+ platform.

What do you think, too delusional?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Addendum on the spore mine rework:

Right now spore mines are used only when they are free. 10 points for a really small chance to inflict a mortal wound on a target not of your choice is simply unusable, especially when the average cost/wound ratio is close to 10, so even if you get to hit something you just came out even. The correct cost for the current implementation of the spore mines is between 3 and 4 points, but would make them abusable and we do not want that. We also do not want to make them delivered more easily, they are mines, not assaulty things. The enemy should trip onto them, not the other way around. What i propose is a six point version of the mines, that work like the actual ones, but have a penalty of -1 to get shot at, which increases to -2 if they are in cover. This way they become cover negating units, a group of 3 in a ruin requires some accurate firepower to remove them and inflicts a mild punishment if you wish to take those ruins. For 18 points that do not cap points that sounds fair. Correctly countered by flamer weapons.

Mucolids on the other hand cannot be just bigger spore mines, they need to cover a different role. I would gladly see them as slow ballons of death that try to get near you. They already work like that, but with those stats they are not worth it, they need some durability. Since they are big sponges, i suggest changing the stats to T1 Sv7+ 8 wounds. Also, they need to be more bangy if manage to make contact, so the table should be:
1 - 1 wound
2&3 - d3
4&5 - d6
6 - 6
For an average of 3 mortal wounds.
At 20 points they become sort of a bad, low priority target that will slowly help you controlling the battlefield. This is a role we lack and is about right for that cost.

Now, why spore mines and mucolids are in the fast attack section is a complete mistery, but that was true for all the preceding codices too.

So thoughts on the Malanthrope?

At 100pts, what does it do because it looks to be purely defensive.

It only seems to give -1 to-hit, no cover save? Is that basically it (I appreciate that is quite potent).

Razerous wrote:
So thoughts on the Malanthrope?

At 100pts, what does it do because it looks to be purely defensive.

It only seems to give -1 to-hit, no cover save? Is that basically it (I appreciate that is quite potent).

Malanthrope needs a nerf. It is overshadowing velenomthropes in the only role they cover and at the same time providing a cheap HQ and synapse. Just no!

FW should stop making models that covers factions shortcomings, they are there by design. You don't give to tyranids a -1 hit aura on an untargettable char, and you don't give tyranids a cheap efficient HQ.

So it's good if you don't want to include a HQ.

But the aura, what is it good at protecting, give it's short range and low M score.

A completely separate way to look at this would be to give Venomthropes a buff. Give them a niche that the Malanthrope doesn't cover. The Mal is an excellent unit but if it's nerfed, Nids lose almost any competitive change they may have had. It's no where near as bad as Malefic Lords, Celestine, Primarchs etc on the "needs a nerf" scale. It's a very good unit in a slightly above average faction.

 jifel wrote:
A completely separate way to look at this would be to give Venomthropes a buff. Give them a niche that the Malanthrope doesn't cover. The Mal is an excellent unit but if it's nerfed, Nids lose almost any competitive change they may have had. It's no where near as bad as Malefic Lords, Celestine, Primarchs etc on the "needs a nerf" scale. It's a very good unit in a slightly above average faction.

But why - how good is that aura buff, really?

 jifel wrote:
A completely separate way to look at this would be to give Venomthropes a buff. Give them a niche that the Malanthrope doesn't cover. The Mal is an excellent unit but if it's nerfed, Nids lose almost any competitive change they may have had. It's no where near as bad as Malefic Lords, Celestine, Primarchs etc on the "needs a nerf" scale. It's a very good unit in a slightly above average faction.

Agreed. Anyone that thinks the Malanthrope needs a nerf should look at the Changeling, a 100 point character that gives out a 9" -1 to hit bubble. The Malanthrope with its very limmited 3" bubble is just fine and not OP at all. Yes, It over shines the venomthropes, but that is because they are an under performing support unit having both too many restrictions on their aura (3" range and only impacting infantry) and having poor resiliency.

Razerous wrote:
But why - how good is that aura buff, really?

I wouldn't call it game-changing or anything, but because the Malanthrope's aura affects all friendly Tyranid units, it means you can protect your Monsters just that bit more (and given that they're mostly non-screenable, any extra bit helps).

I think the reason why the Malanthrope's buff is considered so good is because it's a non-restrictive buff that's tied to a fairly survivable (and most importantly, screenable) monster that's a Synapse providing HQ unit for pretty cheap.

 jifel wrote:
A completely separate way to look at this would be to give Venomthropes a buff. Give them a niche that the Malanthrope doesn't cover. The Mal is an excellent unit but if it's nerfed, Nids lose almost any competitive change they may have had. It's no where near as bad as Malefic Lords, Celestine, Primarchs etc on the "needs a nerf" scale. It's a very good unit in a slightly above average faction.

That is the definition of overpowered. If a single model is the lichpin to the competitivity of a faction, then that model needs a nerf. I'm not saying that it is broken and needs a nerf for the sake of the game, it is broken on the level of a faction that boosts an excellent internal balance, so the FW stuff tends to stand out.

The changeling is a much worse model compared to a malanthrope, his ability covers an extremely restrictive keyword and is easily sniped. The malanthrope costs less and on top of the excellent aura provides synapse and an extra conditional bonus. Also, it is not unique.

At that cost the malanthrope would be balanced if it was targettable, making it similar to a DA nightshroud , which is considered an excellent model.

The Malanthrope isn't going to be nerfed. It is a FW model, which means it is outside the jurisdiction of a new codex. Of all the things that may change in a few months with a new codex, the Malanthrope isn't one of them.

Unfortunately true. And yet i have some hope, when GW updated the GHB of AoS, they also released a free pdf with updates for the FW models.

Not a single thing wrong with the Malanthrope, not one. It is a 90 point HQ with a limited range and utility buff (doesn't affect CC) that provides synapse. It has little to no offensive capability and so only fits in a support role. It overshadows venomthropes, because venomthropes need fixing, not the malanthrope. If the venomthropes were cheaper, and were slightly more viable offensively, then you would see them as they could lend something to a forward line of infantry, where the malanthrope tends to want to sit in the back out of the action. That is how they need to change, make them the offensive buff unit, keep the malanthrope the defensive one.

Most of the units in the dex only need slight adjustments to be considered more viable, like pyrovores being 1-6 in a unit, swarmlord point reduction (or added buff), dramatic point reduction for tervigon, lictors slightly better, etc. I wholly agree that we have a very competent index and it is nice to be playing this faction and have decision paralysis again when designing lists.

I wouldn't say the Malanthrope is what keeps us competitive. I do just fine without one. I also wouldn't say it's OP in any way, maybe a tad under-costed, but the power of it is just fine.
It really is the Venomthropes that need some love. I'd love to see their to-hit-modifier and range of said ability tied to the number of them in a unit.
I like the Malanthrope being for the monsters and the Venoms being for our infantry. It creates a niche for both as long as both options are worth taking.

 gameandwatch wrote:
Not a single thing wrong with the Malanthrope, not one. It is a 90 point HQ with a limited range and utility buff (doesn't affect CC) that provides synapse. It has little to no offensive capability and so only fits in a support role. It overshadows venomthropes, because venomthropes need fixing, not the malanthrope. If the venomthropes were cheaper, and were slightly more viable offensively, then you would see them as they could lend something to a forward line of infantry, where the malanthrope tends to want to sit in the back out of the action. That is how they need to change, make them the offensive buff unit, keep the malanthrope the defensive one.

Most of the units in the dex only need slight adjustments to be considered more viable, like pyrovores being 1-6 in a unit, swarmlord point reduction (or added buff), dramatic point reduction for tervigon, lictors slightly better, etc. I wholly agree that we have a very competent index and it is nice to be playing this faction and have decision paralysis again when designing lists.

Right, was going to say the same thing that the Malanthrope isnt OP at all, its a good choice, but its not a must take. And i also agree that Venomthropes need to be fix. WHY do we have to take 3?!?!? WTF, I would love to play 3 Venomthropes IF they were 1 man units, this way i could have 3 units moving up with my army.

I also agree that the Nids codex just needs some tweaks here and there. All Warrior like units should be 1-6 sizes, i HATE the must take 3., some weapon prices changes and a couple small buffs to a couple units and we gold.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 gameandwatch wrote:
Not a single thing wrong with the Malanthrope, not one. It is a 90 point HQ with a limited range and utility buff (doesn't affect CC) that provides synapse. It has little to no offensive capability and so only fits in a support role. It overshadows venomthropes, because venomthropes need fixing, not the malanthrope. If the venomthropes were cheaper, and were slightly more viable offensively, then you would see them as they could lend something to a forward line of infantry, where the malanthrope tends to want to sit in the back out of the action. That is how they need to change, make them the offensive buff unit, keep the malanthrope the defensive one.

Most of the units in the dex only need slight adjustments to be considered more viable, like pyrovores being 1-6 in a unit, swarmlord point reduction (or added buff), dramatic point reduction for tervigon, lictors slightly better, etc. I wholly agree that we have a very competent index and it is nice to be playing this faction and have decision paralysis again when designing lists.

Right, was going to say the same thing that the Malanthrope isnt OP at all, its a good choice, but its not a must take. And i also agree that Venomthropes need to be fix. WHY do we have to take 3?!?!? WTF, I would love to play 3 Venomthropes IF they were 1 man units, this way i could have 3 units moving up with my army.

I also agree that the Nids codex just needs some tweaks here and there. All Warrior like units should be 1-6 sizes, i HATE the must take 3., some weapon prices changes and a couple small buffs to a couple units and we gold.

In general i agree, but the malan would need at least a price hike to 120. 90 is really too good, let's be honest.

They need to fix venomthropes by making them not targetable or expanding their aura to cover everything instead of just infantry. Its not the malanthropes fault venoms dont get taken. Venoms are far too vulnerable for their niche benefit.

It is not like the malanthrope is undercosted either. It competetes with warriors in many spots as a cheap synapse provider. It is just that venomthropes have bad rules (really, no MC's?) or cost to little. I do not expect them to make it into mellee in most games.

90pts is fine... it has bad melee, is slow, no shooting, no psychic, etc...

How is 90pts to cheap? Eidt: It has a 50% chance to do 1 MW.. oh so scary.

Would you take him at 120 points?
I would.

Spoletta wrote:
Would you take him at 120 points?
I would.

Just b.c you would take it at more points doesnt mean it is needed to be more points or balanced at those points.

No, if you would take it even if it costed more then that means that it is worth more than the actual cost.

Spoletta wrote:
No, if you would take it even if it costed more then that means that it is worth more than the actual cost.

Again, it cant shoot, does very little in melee, has no powers, moves slow, only S4 and T5 with a 5+ save.... hardly worth to be increased.

And like i said, just b.c YOU WOULD doesnt me others would... I wouldnt... i dont always take one as is, if im more of a heavy infantry unit or DS heavy i wont take it b.c i use Primes and Broodlord to hide them.

Spoletta wrote:
No, if you would take it even if it costed more then that means that it is worth more than the actual cost.

The Malanthrope is still an important HQ even if its points increase for a few reasons:

1) We have no better options

2) Force multiplication is difficult to put a value on


That being said, we may see an adjustment when Chapter Approved comes out. Who knows? I personally don't think it NEEDS to be adjusted - I think the units that it can buff need to be adjusted. It works fine. The rest of our army is mostly what has room for improvement. And it's certainly not so over the top that it's broken. Near auto include, sure. But I think that's more an indictment of our HQ selections that its brokenness.

Razerous wrote:So thoughts on the Malanthrope?

At 100pts, what does it do because it looks to be purely defensive.

It only seems to give -1 to-hit, no cover save? Is that basically it (I appreciate that is quite potent).

Decent unit in the right list. It's ability doesn't cover enough space to go in every list, and taking multiple Thropes is a ridiculous amount of tax. It's worth it's points basically if three things are the case: 1, the other HQ's don't fit in your list, 2, your list has obvious high priority targets, and 3, you need the Synapse and will be taking advantage of this part of it's cost as well.

As it stands I think it's currently the most overrated unit in our dex, it's not an auto-include, it's list dependant on how worthy it is. However, it fills a great role in the dex and it helps make some lists just work, so it's a well designed unit imo.

Spoletta wrote:Would you take him at 120 points?
I would.

I don't even take him at his current cost, so there's zero chance I'd take him at 120

Shuppet what HQ choices are you taking instead of the Malanthrope? I assume a broodlord or two and maybe Old One Eye, but the Malanthrope is better than Old One Eye and increases the survivability of your army by so much. Way better than a hive tyrant or a prime, and certainly better than a Tervigon. The Swarmlord is good but gets targeted and killed so fast that you need a Tyrannocyte or the equivalent amount of Tyrant Guard to keep him alive at all. At that point, he's almost 450 points. Yikes.

Our current HQ's include

1:Swarmlord
Pros: Great synergy, melee beast, Dbl Psychic
Cons: Expensive, Big Target, relatively fragile for cost.

2: Hive tyrant
Pros: All around good for range and Melee, good synergy, Dbl psychic, can fly(if paid for)
Cons: Expensive, Big Target, fragile for cost.

3:Broodlord
Pros:Fast, Genestealer synergy,Character,Good melee, Psychic, Expensive
Cons: Low Wounds, Vulnerable to snipers, no range

4: Old one Eye
Pros: Buffs Carnifex's, melee beast
Cons: No synapse, Big target, no range, Expensive.

5: Tervigon
Pros: Psychic, Termigaunt synergy, spawn Termigaunts
Cons: Very Expensive, backlash on termigaunts, no good range, moderate to bad melee.

6: Tyranid Prime
Pros: Character, Warrior synergy
Cons: Very Expensive for what he does, no wings(can't keep up with shrikes)

7: Malanthrope
Pros: Cheapest HQ by 12+pts, Synergy with everything(spore cloud), Character, Pray adaptation, Can be taken in 3 but are independent after deploy, Fly
Cons: Fragile, relatively slow

So from our list of Tyranid HQ's we have lots of choices but for filling the "leader" role only one or two. Most of our HQ's are front line get in your face and be killie which is not conductive to preventing your opponent from getting slay the warlord. The only 2 that can really fill this role (and not waist their talents) are the Tyranid Prime and the Malanthrope. As the malanthrope is cheaper and is built to sit back and buff units it is in it's element on the back lines keeping our shootie bugs alive, where the prime wants to be mid range at farthest from the action to use it's short range and buff the short range of the warriors it's with. So it makes the Malanthrope our only real choice for so many places in our army. This is why it seems it's overpowered but really it is just good at what it does. If he gets assaulted by any "good" melee unit he dies which makes him I'd say pointed just about right. We need more lower point HQ options like the malanthrope to enhance our units.

Though avalable as "cheap" HQ's I am not including GSC ones due to them not being Hive fleet and not haveing really any synergy with actual Tyranid units (though there are some fun combos the other way around...Broodlord to cast catalist on Purestrain Genestealers with an Icon in range gives a 5++inv/5+++ Catalist/6+++ Icon save makeing for some nigh invunerable genestealers)

 luke1705 wrote:
Shuppet what HQ choices are you taking instead of the Malanthrope? I assume a broodlord or two and maybe Old One Eye, but the Malanthrope is better than Old One Eye and increases the survivability of your army by so much. Way better than a hive tyrant or a prime, and certainly better than a Tervigon. The Swarmlord is good but gets targeted and killed so fast that you need a Tyrannocyte or the equivalent amount of Tyrant Guard to keep him alive at all. At that point, he's almost 450 points. Yikes.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with any of that. I was running Malanthrope for a while. It doesn't do much when you are running 6 Carnifexes, you can't get them all in the shroudcloud and your opponent can just first shoot at the ones that don't. It also can't even keep up with them after a turn as they just run straight forward. Not a good choice.

I was playing round with Old One Eye and StoneCrushers, but I found I much prefer the damage projection of shooty Fexes, although the numbers on 6 OOE buffed Stonecrushers are ridic :O

Once I started running Warriors though it was a no-brainer, so I now run the Tyranid Prime. Prime buffed Warriors on the movy basically match a stationary Fleshborer Tyrannofex for shooting - and for CC its not even comparable. And unlike the Malanthrope the Prime itself actually contributes, and has a good chance of making a chunk of his points back on his own. He's cheap fill this slot and is worth his points.


I'm not saying Malanthrope isn't often the best option available, as it is a cheap enough unit to fill the mandatory HQ slot that can help the survivability of key units that you choose it to cover. It doesn't do this so well when you've built for redundancy, and have zero use for the synapse however. I'm just saying that sometimes it's not necessarily worth the points, even if it does still happen to make the list for being the best option available. At other times, eg like when you have two units of Biovores and an Exocrine sitting back while everything else runs in - it might be worth the 100 pt tax. It's a balanced unit that most certainly doesn't need nerfs, and would probably belong in a lot less lists if there was other better options. I also believe people have overinflated opinions of the unit a little too. Just my opinion.
Nid players should also consider building in a way that makes one of the HQs a better choice, Warriors and Stealers are excellent units and both synergize very well and neatly with their Lord unit. OOE is potentially bonkers as well. Swarmy is pricey but can have big game impact. Tervigon is a definite let down though. Red Terror should be HQ. Unsure about Hive Tyrants at the moment but they probably need a bit more damage and a bit cheaper if they are going to be that glassy. Hoping we get a cool Parasite as well. Malanthrope is good for what it is but not really better than the other HQs, just a little more versatile.

The Malanthrope is a lynchpin unit because the rest of the book cant stack up to the competitive meta right now on the top tier. If you nerf it, Nids are no longer in contention for top tier. IF malanthropes need a nerf (and I dont believe they do) it would have to come with buffs to other units to balance the faction.

That's still a ridiculous statement. No way is it a lynchpin. I have plenty of Synapse in my list and not having the very short ranged -1 to hit doesn't hurt me at all. It might be a lynchpin for for the monster lists, but my swarms do just fine without him.

To Swarmlord or not to Swarmlord, that is the question.

Um... no its not, the army does just fine without it tho. Only does amazing in a MC list, if you do any type of swarms its not any better than Venomthropes.

The aura is only for units -1 with in range, other than that..... it doesnt do anything else.

I mean... all my harlequins vehicles/bikes are -1 to hit and they deal WAY more damage than the Malanthrope ever will, while keeping my unit alive for only 9pts more lol.

I always Swarmlord sadly. I find his extra move too valuable. I keep him hidden using his extra move ability on my units until I get most of the heavy shooting tied up or killed off, then I run him in to slaughter what's left.

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
I always Swarmlord sadly. I find his extra move too valuable. I keep him hidden using his extra move ability on my units until I get most of the heavy shooting tied up or killed off, then I run him in to slaughter what's left.

Okay interesting - what do you find he kills well or the best? How fragile is he?

 Lance845 wrote:
They need to fix venomthropes by making them not targetable or expanding their aura to cover everything instead of just infantry. Its not the malanthropes fault venoms dont get taken. Venoms are far too vulnerable for their niche benefit.

This. Venomthropes are ass. Forgeworld isn't allowed in tournaments in my region, so I can't take Malanthropes. Even so, I don't run Venomthropes. There's no way I'm paying 93pts for that.

Venomthropes should be 1-3 per unit and protect all Tyranid units like the Malanthrope, not just infantry.

Razerous wrote:

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
I always Swarmlord sadly. I find his extra move too valuable. I keep him hidden using his extra move ability on my units until I get most of the heavy shooting tied up or killed off, then I run him in to slaughter what's left.

Okay interesting - what do you find he kills well or the best? How fragile is he?

He is fragile to shooting, which is why I chain my units to him to benefit from his special ability early on and keep him as hidden as possible. Once things are nice and messy though and the armies are clashed, he is a wrecking ball. There really isn't much he isn't good at fighting. He is one of the best melee units in the game.
I run a lot of shooting in my list and some melee. I'm mostly a horde army with only a few large monsters (2 exocrines, swarmlord and trygon prime). I rely a lot on my genestealers, termagaunts, gargoyles and Hive Guard.

 N.I.B. wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
They need to fix venomthropes by making them not targetable or expanding their aura to cover everything instead of just infantry. Its not the malanthropes fault venoms dont get taken. Venoms are far too vulnerable for their niche benefit.

This. Venomthropes are ass. Forgeworld isn't allowed in tournaments in my region, so I can't take Malanthropes. Even so, I don't run Venomthropes. There's no way I'm paying 93pts for that.

Venomthropes should be 1-3 per unit and protect all Tyranid units like the Malanthrope, not just infantry.

For large hordes you get a HUGE radius with venomthropes, they are the same points as a malanthrope also.

Yes they should be 1-3.

And..... your area sucks lol.

 N.I.B. wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
They need to fix venomthropes by making them not targetable or expanding their aura to cover everything instead of just infantry. Its not the malanthropes fault venoms dont get taken. Venoms are far too vulnerable for their niche benefit.

This. Venomthropes are ass. Forgeworld isn't allowed in tournaments in my region, so I can't take Malanthropes. Even so, I don't run Venomthropes. There's no way I'm paying 93pts for that.

Venomthropes should be 1-3 per unit and protect all Tyranid units like the Malanthrope, not just infantry.

I believe you can pick a single model as an auxiliary support detachment. This way you can field a single venomthrope and keep it behind cover out of sight. Indirect fire could take it out put then it only cost 31 points. Also cost a command point but could be good addition to heavy infantry tyranid armies. Keep it between 3x3 biovores or something like that.

So what you are hoping for Hive Fleet tactics?

It is obviously isn't going to be named Hive Fleet Tactics, probably it will be something like Hive Fleet Adaptation or Hive Fleet Mutation or something like that.

GW loves to reuse stratagems and sub factions rules when possible (practically everyone has Raven Guard tactics), so we should use already existing "tactics" to get an idea, specially Chaos ones as chaos has plenty of assault based tactics.

Tyran wrote:
So what you are hoping for Hive Fleet tactics?

It is obviously isn't going to be named Hive Fleet Tactics, probably it will be something like Hive Fleet Adaptation or Hive Fleet Mutation or something like that.

GW loves to reuse stratagems and sub factions rules when possible (practically everyone has Raven Guard tactics), so we should use already existing "tactics" to get an idea, specially Chaos ones as chaos has plenty of assault based tactics.

Raven guard tactics is a given, now Adeptus has it too. I think they are GW answer to gunlines, inserting a certain number of lists that counter those by default.

For other chapter tactics i would look at Adeputs traits more than other factions, since this is the first faction with traits not based around infantry (and dreadnaughts).

I would bet money that we get a general strategem that allows us to respawn or refill a unit similar to the one for the one forgeworld in admech.

 Lance845 wrote:
I would bet money that we get a general strategem that allows us to respawn or refill a unit similar to the one for the one forgeworld in admech.

Yep, I think we'll get an "Endless" strategem like "Tide of Traitors", and something like Alpha legion/ Raven Guard after that, it depends...will they mostly copy/paste (likely) or get creative.. Maybe Hive Fleet Gorgon will get a "Mutations for victory" that gives all gribblies +1T vs a gun of your choice (Laser, Plasma, etc) That would be mondo fluffy...and I don't Thinks its too powerful....

I'd look to how they've handled Chaos for hints about us Nids....

It's going to be real great just refilling Hormagaunts and Termagants and such. With their speed, having to refill and get back across the board won't be an issue at all.

Gargoyles... oh jeez. a unit of 30 gargs that can refill and then rush back accross the board. So good.

It will probably be limited to gaunts.
I actually look forward to what stratagems and traits we will get. There is so much room for some really creative stuff here. I'm also wondering if we will get Biomorphs like Artifacts. Acid Blood or harden exoskeleton might be nice for us.
The safe bets for traits are the -1 to hit camo thing, the endless gaunts one and probably one that allows us to leave combat and assault in the same turn.
As far as Stratagems, I'm hoping for a Death Throes one that does mortal wounds when a monster is killed and maybe one for Biovore assault.

I want to see pyrovores be good if not great maby give them additional mortal wound when they roll6s for damage.

Pyrovores are actually really nasty right now if you are forced to face them in close combat. Heavy flamer, decent melee, pour a lot of mortal wounds when you attack them and have 4 wounds. Problem is that they are slow and will never make it to the enemy in the majority of games.

With a raven guard trait though...

Pyrovores have always had the same problem in that they were a pure glass canon pulled by a sloth. Which in a game with a lot of ranged firepower, means they tend to end up blown up before they get to hit.

The idea of the pyrovore is great - a close combat beast that spews out flames and if killed, explodes to harm all those around it. The trick is getting it into close combat alive so that it can actually do something.

They could certainly use a speed increase or the ability to run and shoot.

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
They could certainly use a speed increase or the ability to run and shoot.

Well it can already run and shoot, but speed 5" is really too low.

There are two new Hive Fleets mentioned in the new Death Guard codex, Scitalis and Lotan. Not much information is provided on Scitalis apart from it attacking from the galactic north (looks like it might be on course for Baal again, but is currently bogged down in Death Guard/Nurgle space), but Lotan is funny. Their response to the Death Guard's bio-warfare tactics was to deploy mass Toxicrenes and Venomthropes, resulting in an escalating toxin arms race between the two sides that ended with the everything on the planet's surface being reduced to a sea of inedible sludge. Technically was a loss for Lotan in the sense the planet was too polluted to harvest (one ship tried and its mouthparts melted from the attempt) but they did succeed in beating the Death Guard at their own game which is impressive.

Even if they can't eat the world now I'd be willing to bet the hive ship will return in time- or eventually evolve past the problem of a highly acidic world.

I have collected a number of Tyranid Warriors, and I'm wondering if anyone has tried spamming them en-masse. By En-masse I mean six squads of 9. Crazy I know, just wondering. . .

I have not, but would like to know also.

I would assume you would do them as Jack of all Trades, DS's LW/BS, a couple Primes and some Venom Thrope, also some Venom Cannons would be good.


Let me know how it goes.

 Insectum7 wrote:
I have collected a number of Tyranid Warriors, and I'm wondering if anyone has tried spamming them en-masse. By En-masse I mean six squads of 9. Crazy I know, just wondering. . .

And then the just walk forward and simply get shot to pieces. Multi-wound creatures are vulnerable to multi-damage weapons, so its better to pick genestealers.

Shogun that is just closed minded. By that argumentation you can only run gaunts and stealers.

 Insectum7 wrote:
I have collected a number of Tyranid Warriors, and I'm wondering if anyone has tried spamming them en-masse. By En-masse I mean six squads of 9. Crazy I know, just wondering. . .

I recently posted a list built around Warrior, but I used a Supreme Command of three Fly'rants for anti-air and all around problem solving.

shogun wrote:

 N.I.B. wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
They need to fix venomthropes by making them not targetable or expanding their aura to cover everything instead of just infantry. Its not the malanthropes fault venoms dont get taken. Venoms are far too vulnerable for their niche benefit.

This. Venomthropes are ass. Forgeworld isn't allowed in tournaments in my region, so I can't take Malanthropes. Even so, I don't run Venomthropes. There's no way I'm paying 93pts for that.

Venomthropes should be 1-3 per unit and protect all Tyranid units like the Malanthrope, not just infantry.

I believe you can pick a single model as an auxiliary support detachment. This way you can field a single venomthrope and keep it behind cover out of sight. Indirect fire could take it out put then it only cost 31 points. Also cost a command point but could be good addition to heavy infantry tyranid armies. Keep it between 3x3 biovores or something like that.

Nope, it's single unit, not single model.

 Niiai wrote:
Shogun that is just closed minded. By that argumentation you can only run gaunts and stealers.

He just said that Genestealers are better than multi-wound creatures slowly footslogging across the board.

 Niiai wrote:
Shogun that is just closed minded. By that argumentation you can only run gaunts and stealers.

Also depends on your local meta, if players are spamming Tac squads i think he'll do just fine, if they are spamming ML's err.. well thats different lol.

 N.I.B. wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
Shogun that is just closed minded. By that argumentation you can only run gaunts and stealers.

He just said that Genestealers are better than multi-wound creatures slowly footslogging across the board.

Your statement N.I.B. is not true. You are qupoting Shogun's conclusuon. Genestealers are better then warriors. In fact you are even adjusting his statement.

I am attacking the argument that leads Shogun to his conclusion: Argument: "Multi-wound creatures are vulnerable to multi-damage weapons," leading to the conclution: "so its better to pick genestealers."

First, this argumentation is false: It would mean every multi wound creature in our codex is bad. This is simply not true. There are many good multi wound creatures and units in our codex.

Second, Shogun is cherry picking hos result. (Chosing results that he likes, while ignoring the once that does not suport his claim.) All gaunts and gargoyles are also not multi wound creatures, but they are hardly as good as Shoguns argument would have them be.

I also think his awnser is just wrong, as I will explain below.

The problem is that Insectum7 is looking for awnsers to how good his warriors are. This indicates that Insectum7 is looking for good advice, and Shogun is just muddeling the water. The arguments on this forum between running warriors to not running warriors has been very passionetly engaged on this thread. Often going on for pages.

To sum up these arguments:
- They are very versatile, something our codex has very little of. Versatilaty is often bad in a specialist codex. However in the case of warriors some think they are in the goldi-lock aria, being just versatile enough to make up for the points.
- They came worst out on the dakka mathhammer.
- They are very hard to compare with shrikes. With passionate opinioons on both sides.
- Shuppet, who started out as an anti-warrior, has recently become pro-warrior. This could indicate that there is an argument to be made for warriors.

If Shogun had said 'Warriors are highly debated. But genestealer is considered one of the best units in the codex.' it would have been much better. Not only would he not be making bad arguments with cherry picked conclutions. Insectum7 would be more informed. Insectum7 can with good faith throw together a list with warriors and feel good about it.

N.I.B. wrote:

shogun wrote:

 N.I.B. wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
They need to fix venomthropes by making them not targetable or expanding their aura to cover everything instead of just infantry. Its not the malanthropes fault venoms dont get taken. Venoms are far too vulnerable for their niche benefit.

This. Venomthropes are ass. Forgeworld isn't allowed in tournaments in my region, so I can't take Malanthropes. Even so, I don't run Venomthropes. There's no way I'm paying 93pts for that.

Venomthropes should be 1-3 per unit and protect all Tyranid units like the Malanthrope, not just infantry.

I believe you can pick a single model as an auxiliary support detachment. This way you can field a single venomthrope and keep it behind cover out of sight. Indirect fire could take it out put then it only cost 31 points. Also cost a command point but could be good addition to heavy infantry tyranid armies. Keep it between 3x3 biovores or something like that.

Nope, it's single unit, not single model.

Rulebook FAQ:

Page 242 – Understrength Units
Change the second paragraph to read:
‘If you are using Power Ratings, you must still pay
the Power Rating cost as if you had a minimum-sized unit, even though it contains fewer models. If you are using points, you only pay the points for the models you actually have in an understrength unit (and any wargear they are equipped with). An understrength unit still takes up the appropriate slot in a Detachment. If you are playing a matched play game, you can
only include an understrength unit in an Auxiliary Support Detachment.’

Niiai wrote:Shogun that is just closed minded. By that argumentation you can only run gaunts and stealers.

No, its simple math. A decent enemy shooty list can take down at least 9 warriors a turn so in the end the warriors just bite the dust. They're to slow to make up for the first casualties. It's a reason not to take warriors, not a reason to only take guants and genestealers.

This is my armylist (2000):

DETACHMENT1: TYRANIDS SPEARHEAD DETACHMENT

WARLORD HQ: Broodlord

HEAVY SUPPORT: 3x Biovore
HEAVY SUPPORT: 3x Biovore
HEAVY SUPPORT: 3x Biovore
HEAVY SUPPORT: Mawlock
HEAVY SUPPORT: Mawlock
HEAVY SUPPORT: Mawlock

DETACHMENT2: GENESTEALER CULT- AUXILIARY SUPPORT DETACHMENT
HQ: Magus

DETACHMENT3: ASTRA MILITARUM BATALLION DETACHMENT

HQ: Company commander, plasma pistol + power sword
HQ: Primaris psyker

ELITE: Commissar, plasma pistol, power sword
ELITE: Master of ordnance

TROOPS: 30x conscripts
TROOPS: 5x Militarum tempestus scions 2x plasmagun + plasma pistol
TROOPS: 5x Militarum tempestus scions 2x plasmagun + plasma pistol

HEAVY SUPPORT: Manticore
HEAVY SUPPORT: 3xBasilisk
HEAVY SUPPORT: 3x Wyverns

I made this list for a tournament that;
- doesn't allow forgeworld,
- detachments are unique,
- dataslates are limited to max 3,
- allowed to pick the warlord trait and psychic powers.

This amount of shooting takes down warriors easily. I can always move the biovores and deploy my missing sporemines 3 inch in front of a particular warrior unit preventing it from moving forward. After 2/3 turns of shooting I can drop in the mawlocks also preventing the warriors from moving forward. If a warrior unit get's to close I always got a bunch of astra M. characters + conscripts counterassaulting with a broodlord backing them up. I like my odds.

Tournament play =/= all play

Local meta depends on what you can and can not play, the more friendlier the meta the more viable units/lists you can take.

Not everyone plays Hyper comp.

Won't warrior squads benefit greatly from a Malanthrope? Thinking their slower speed and larger footprint/cost.

Shogun that list you posted would easily stop cold a genestealer list as well, so i don't see the relevance here.

Also:

shogun wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
I have collected a number of Tyranid Warriors, and I'm wondering if anyone has tried spamming them en-masse. By En-masse I mean six squads of 9. Crazy I know, just wondering. . .

And then the just walk forward and simply get shot to pieces. Multi-wound creatures are vulnerable to multi-damage weapons, so its better to pick genestealers.

A genestealer suffer 4 points of damage from a bolter hit, compared to the 1,75 points of a sponge warrior.

Single-wound models are vulnerable to bolter fire, so its better to pick warriors.

Niiai wrote:

 N.I.B. wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
Shogun that is just closed minded. By that argumentation you can only run gaunts and stealers.

He just said that Genestealers are better than multi-wound creatures slowly footslogging across the board.

Your statement N.I.B. is not true. You are qupoting Shogun's conclusuon. Genestealers are better then warriors. In fact you are even adjusting his statement.

I am attacking the argument that leads Shogun to his conclusion: Argument: "Multi-wound creatures are vulnerable to multi-damage weapons," leading to the conclution: "so its better to pick genestealers."

First, this argumentation is false: It would mean every multi wound creature in our codex is bad. This is simply not true. There are many good multi wound creatures and units in our codex.

Second, Shogun is cherry picking hos result. (Chosing results that he likes, while ignoring the once that does not suport his claim.) All gaunts and gargoyles are also not multi wound creatures, but they are hardly as good as Shoguns argument would have them be.

N.I.B. understands that we are talking about a 6 inch walking infantry model that are much more vulnerable to multi-damage weapons compared to genestealers. The question was; would a 6x9 warrior setup be any good. Players are always looking at individual units but don't talk about the whole strategy of the army. Fielding 6x9 warriors gives you a force that is slowly walking forward and try to get within 18 inch devourer range. Thats the whole strategy? Then you are better of fielding a whole army of genestealers if you want to go down that road. Warriors are very average for a decent price but spamming them gives you a 'decent' army but nothing more. Not enough punch in shooting, close combat and speed.

Niiai wrote:I also think his awnser is just wrong, as I will explain below.

The problem is that Insectum7 is looking for awnsers to how good his warriors are. This indicates that Insectum7 is looking for good advice, and Shogun is just muddeling the water. The arguments on this forum between running warriors to not running warriors has been very passionetly engaged on this thread. Often going on for pages.

To sum up these arguments:
- They are very versatile, something our codex has very little of. Versatilaty is often bad in a specialist codex. However in the case of warriors some think they are in the goldi-lock aria, being just versatile enough to make up for the points.
- They came worst out on the dakka mathhammer.
- They are very hard to compare with shrikes. With passionate opinioons on both sides.
- Shuppet, who started out as an anti-warrior, has recently become pro-warrior. This could indicate that there is an argument to be made for warriors.

If Shogun had said 'Warriors are highly debated. But genestealer is considered one of the best units in the codex.' it would have been much better. Not only would he not be making bad arguments with cherry picked conclutions. Insectum7 would be more informed. Insectum7 can with good faith throw together a list with warriors and feel good about it.

Like I already mentioned, you look at tyranid warriors in general and not at the 6x9 unit spam setup. You can do a whole lot of math but it means nothing if you don't look at the complete picture, and thats 'how do you take down a variation of enemy armies'? Put average+ armies against a warrior army and see how fast the die. If you can do a little bit of math and got half a brain it's so obvious.

If I would ever take warriors, it would be a cheap unit of 3 for some synapse support, or maybe 9 fully tooled crawling out of a trygon hole. Synapse support is better done by a malanthrope and/or broodlord and deep striking a big unit like that is easily blocked by enemy bubble wrap and then it's still better to go for 20 genestealers. So no, I would never take warriors.

Amishprn86 wrote:Tournament play =/= all play

Local meta depends on what you can and can not play, the more friendlier the meta the more viable units/lists you can take.

Not everyone plays Hyper comp.

No, but this post is about tactics so I assume that people want the best tactics to take on an enemy armies. Then players should ask for advice and mention their local meta.

I know it seems almost sacrilegious but what of they took synapse away from warriors but gave them the hive node ability of the sporocyte instead. This would hopefully bring down their points making them more viable also it would make the prime actually usefully to take with them it would also make them still a "node" of the hive mind esp if they did not have instinctive behavior.

Timeshadow wrote:
I know it seems almost sacrilegious but what of they took synapse away from warriors but gave them the hive node ability of the sporocyte instead. This would hopefully bring down their points making them more viable also it would make the prime actually usefully to take with them it would also make them still a "node" of the hive mind esp if they did not have instinctive behavior.

If the cost of warriors goes even more down they become criminal

Don't be confused by our other exceptional troop choices, warriors in any other faction would be the MVP of the codex (troops wise).

Timeshadow wrote:
I know it seems almost sacrilegious but what of they took synapse away from warriors but gave them the hive node ability of the sporocyte instead. This would hopefully bring down their points making them more viable also it would make the prime actually usefully to take with them it would also make them still a "node" of the hive mind esp if they did not have instinctive behavior.

I don't think they can make them much cheaper than they currently are. As is, most 2-wound infantry in the game hover around ~20 points before equipment and aren't deemed competitively viable. The problem is the proliferation of plasma more than anything, the overcharged profile is just too good at eliminating such targets while threatening everything else.

And this is why warriors are good. 3 wounds means that a lot of wounds get wasted with typical ranged profiles. Almost nothing in the game inflicts 3 fixed damage at range. With melee it is somewhat more common, but if they get in melee then that's already a good thing (now if you also manage to avoid those thunder hammers, that's even better).

 Strat_N8 wrote:

Timeshadow wrote:
I know it seems almost sacrilegious but what of they took synapse away from warriors but gave them the hive node ability of the sporocyte instead. This would hopefully bring down their points making them more viable also it would make the prime actually usefully to take with them it would also make them still a "node" of the hive mind esp if they did not have instinctive behavior.

I don't think they can make them much cheaper than they currently are. As is, most 2-wound infantry in the game hover around ~20 points before equipment and aren't deemed competitively viable. The problem is the proliferation of plasma more than anything, the overcharged profile is just too good at eliminating such targets while threatening everything else.

Use warriors with a Malanthrope then, plasma hates negative modifiers.

Warriors don't have a problem with plasma, they are more efficently fought with bolters and assault cannons rather than multi-damage weapons.

I want to experiment bringing down warriors from trygon. Boneswords, some with laswhips, spinefists and adrenal glands. What you think?

shogun wrote:

N.I.B. understands that we are talking about a 6 inch walking infantry model that are much more vulnerable to multi-damage weapons compared to genestealers. The question was; would a 6x9 warrior setup be any good. Players are always looking at individual units but don't talk about the whole strategy of the army. Fielding 6x9 warriors gives you a force that is slowly walking forward and try to get within 18 inch devourer range. Thats the whole strategy? Then you are better of fielding a whole army of genestealers if you want to go down that road. Warriors are very average for a decent price but spamming them gives you a 'decent' army but nothing more. Not enough punch in shooting, close combat and speed.

Hehe. I should specify that there are no Devourers here, just Deathspitters and Boneswords. They are all the ooooolld Tyranid Warriors. As their weapons are all Assault, I think they will be advancing most of the time. Hopefully that can help me avoid some extra casualties on the way in.

I do have Genestealers, I think 27 of them. They will make it into my list eventually, but I'm starting out with the Warriors.

Razerous wrote:
Won't warrior squads benefit greatly from a Malanthrope? Thinking their slower speed and larger footprint/cost.

My understanding was that Malanthropes only affected models within 3", and not whole units. Is this not the case? Love the model though, I'll probably get one at some point. The "models" not "units" thing made it seem they'd be better sitting between Exocrines or Tervigons or something, so it seemed like I could wait on it until I got more big stuff.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Tournament play =/= all play

Local meta depends on what you can and can not play, the more friendlier the meta the more viable units/lists you can take.

Not everyone plays Hyper comp.

Right now my local varies widely. Some newcomers, some experienced, some tourney types. Every club night is a surprise. In 7th I just brought a casual list and a hyper competitive one, and asked my opponent which they wanted. In 8th I've been adjusting as I get more experience, but with Tyranids, for a while it will be "what is painted?" until I expand beyond 2000.

Glad to hear you are giving warriors a chance Insectum7. I think you will be supriced.

Regarding the Malanthrope: The rules as written has been changed. The fact that it talks about models and not units was a good clue that some terminolagy was wrong in the rules. (It would strickly only do it to singel model units.) It now gives to all units within 3. So you would just need to touch the bouble to get the bonus.

I highly doubt baby siting warriors is the best place for a malanthrope. They don't really need the synapse.

And it is too slow to cover them for long with a 3" bubble. I would suggest venoms there, the additonal 3" means an additional turn of cover.

On a slightly different subject, any plans for dealing with Mortarion? Defensively he doesn't look too bad (basically 2 bloat drones bolted together with a 4++), but his offensive capabilities make me cringe. At full health without any other buffs applied to he can either throw out 18 S8 attacks with -2 AP, 1 damage or 6 S16 attacks with -4 AP, D6 damage. In either case his attacks hit on a 2+ and will most likely wound on a 2+, rerolling 1's in both cases. I don't see our melee units being able to hold up terribly well against him and if they are truly worried about getting alpha struck they can simply keep a Blightspawn around to insure Morty gets to swing first.

Spoletta wrote:
And it is too slow to cover them for long with a 3" bubble. I would suggest venoms there, the additonal 3" means an additional turn of cover.

Can't the Malanthrope run every turn?

Razerous wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
And it is too slow to cover them for long with a 3" bubble. I would suggest venoms there, the additonal 3" means an additional turn of cover.

Can't the Malanthrope run every turn?

Yeah, but then you can't shoot with it! :-(

Razerous wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
And it is too slow to cover them for long with a 3" bubble. I would suggest venoms there, the additonal 3" means an additional turn of cover.

Can't the Malanthrope run every turn?

Warriors will be running too, with +1 speed and glands. Every inch of that bubble counts.

The issue with the "yeah but it can just advance every turn" is reliability. A 3" bubble is already pretty tight. 6-11" Move can cause a lot of problems in keeping the aura up or holding back the units they should be buffing.

Yeah, i love warriors and i think they are priced correctly, i just dont agree with how slow they are.

Timeshadow wrote:
I know it seems almost sacrilegious but what of they took synapse away from warriors but gave them the hive node ability of the sporocyte instead. This would hopefully bring down their points making them more viable also it would make the prime actually usefully to take with them it would also make them still a "node" of the hive mind esp if they did not have instinctive behavior.

Sounds interesting, though I'm leaning in the opposite direction, I'd like Shadow to be fearsome, like in the "olden dayz" I'd be Super happy if Warriors got a weak sauce Smite, like Grey Knights get. That might make them a more attractive choice...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also if we get access to a Raven Guard like "Infiltrate" Strat, Warriors jump way up on the "Awesome!" meter.

 Niiai wrote:
Glad to hear you are giving warriors a chance Insectum7. I think you will be supriced.

Regarding the Malanthrope: The rules as written has been changed. The fact that it talks about models and not units was a good clue that some terminolagy was wrong in the rules. (It would strickly only do it to singel model units.) It now gives to all units within 3. So you would just need to touch the bouble to get the bonus.

I highly doubt baby siting warriors is the best place for a malanthrope. They don't really need the synapse.

Thanks! I'm excited to get them painted and on the table.

Also thanks for the clarification on the Malanthrope, that helps it's utility a ton. I was thinking of taking it more for the -1 to hit, but . . .

Spoletta wrote:
And it is too slow to cover them for long with a 3" bubble. I would suggest venoms there, the additonal 3" means an additional turn of cover.

This seems totally valid, I don't want to worry about stringing out my Warriors to be in a slow bubble. I think I'll want as much freedom of movement as possible. A Malanthrope will have to wait until I have something better for it to do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Beginning list: "What am I thinking?"




Originally I had it all in a single Battalion with the last block of Warriors replaced with Zoanthropes because I have six of the beautiful metal ones, and ran out of Troops slots. Then I realized that with my last ebay purchase I ought to have enough Warriors to make a 7th squad, and with the 3rd Prime I could make the separate Patrol detachment. Soo, in keeping with the theme. . . it's just straight Warriors and Primes.

I wasn't taking it too seriously at first, and then I realized that it shoots 128 S5 AP -1 shots in a round, hitting on 3+ from the Primes. That's a little scarier than I was giving it credit for. I think I'll start assembly with this target in mind, play some rounds and adjust it a bit.

Any thoughts on Deathspitter/Bonesword ratios? Or Mods to the list once I have it going? I'm thinking I could drop two Primes and the last Warrior squad, shuffle some points around and get two Exocrines and a Malanthrope if I drop some Warrior squads from 9 to 8. Another way I'm leaning is to swap some Warriors/Primes for some Genestealers and the Swarmlord into Tyrannocytes for a shock assault.

I would drop the patrol detachment and invest in adrenal glands for everyone. Also, add some lashwips, with so many things in melee you will lose warriors each turn before they can strike. Those whips come at 2 points and really help. With the remaining points you should make a vanguard detachment with prime, lictor, lictor and venoms.

The lictors will be pure gold in reducing the amount of fire your warriors will suffer, and the venoms too will help with this. Put them in cover turn 1 and let them absorb as much fire as possible.

I think you will be better served if 3 models have 2 scything tallons for the extra attack. And you put the bonesword on the once with the deathspitters. Just remove them last.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Beginning list: "What am I thinking?"

Spoiler:

Battalion Detatchment
Tyranid Prime
Boneswords, Deathspitter

Tyranid Prime
Boneswords, Scything Talons

Tyranid Warriors (9)
Boneswords (3), Deathspitters (6), Scything Talons (all)

Tyranid Warriors (9)
Boneswords (3), Deathspitters (6), Scything Talons (all)

Tyranid Warriors (9)
Boneswords (3), Deathspitters (6), Scything Talons (all)

Tyranid Warriors (9)
Boneswords (3), Deathspitters (6), Scything Talons (all)

Tyranid Warriors (9)
Boneswords (3), Deathspitters (6), Scything Talons (all)

Tyranid Warriors (9)
Boneswords (3), Deathspitters (6), Scything Talons (all)


Patrol Detatchment
Tyranid Prime
Boneswords, Scything Talons

Tyranid Warriors (9)
Boneswords (3), Deathspitters (6), Scything Talons (all)

2000

Lets pick a few enemy units and compare the points with the same amount of warriors:

Venerable dreadnought with 2x twin linked autocannon Versus 6 warriors
8 shots, 6,7 hits, 4,5 wounds, 3x2 damage = 1 dead warrior and another one 2 wounds. Easy for a venerable dreadnought to keep in the back and shoot for 3 turns before the warriors get within assault range. Those two warriors that do get within assault range will die because of 'overwatch' and dreadnought stomping.

Stormraven Versus 11 warriors: I'am not even going to do the math here. Stormraven can keep flying for 2 turns and even 'hover' at turn 3 and still manage te take down 11 warriors before the can assault. Stormraven can also fall back out of close combat and keep shooting. Not a match.

Manticore Versus 5 warriors: 3,5 hits, 3 wounds, around 2 dead warriors. Also got a heavy bolter so it's game over for the warriors after turn 2.

Conscripts x30 + commissar + company commander versus 5/6 warrior: 60 lasguns (with order), 20 hits, 7 wound, 3,5 damage wounds/one dead warrior. 15 deathspitter shots back, 10 hits, 6,6 wounds, 5 dead conscripts. After that you get 25 conscripts with 4 shots each (rapid fire+order) so thats 100 shots, 33 hits, 11 wounds, 5,5 damage wounds. 2/3 warriors left. 9 deathspitter shots, 6 hits, 4 wounds, 3/4 dead conscripts.
assault= 9 attacks, 6 hits, 4 wounds, 3 dead conscripts. 17 conscripts attacking back = 6 hits, 2 wounds, 1 damage wound. Next turn the commissar and company commander also assault and another warrior bites the dust. At this point you got one maybe two warriors left and still 17 conscripts to fight in combination with commissar and company commander.

Devastator squad with 4x heavy bolter Versus 4 warriors: 12 shots, 8 hits,5 wounds, one dead warrior. Hopefully you got two warriors left to assault at turn 3 but I would not count on that with 36 inch range heavy bolters.

Normally I don't like this kind of one on one math because it's you have to look at the complete picture and total synergy of the armies. But with a full warriors army moving forward it's nothing more then shooting them down from a distance and counterassault the leftovers when the get close. Warriors could do nicely against average units like tactical marines with bolters and such. Marines have to pay for the 3+ save and against bolters the warriors get a 4+ armor save. But all other decent shooty units take down warriors easily.

 Insectum7 wrote:
I wasn't taking it too seriously at first, and then I realized that it shoots 128 S5 AP -1 shots in a round, hitting on 3+ from the Primes. That's a little scarier than I was giving it credit for. I think I'll start assembly with this target in mind, play some rounds and adjust it a bit.

You really think your whole army get to shoot each and every turn with 18 inch deathspitters? Your lucky if some can shoot at turn 2 and only if you get first turn to begin with. The warrior unit that get's the best 'advance' result will be taking down first, also.

It's your funeral but if you like it, then go for it man...

A malanthrope is a great addition to your army and also consider an aegis defence line.

Spoletta wrote:
I would drop the patrol detachment and invest in adrenal glands for everyone. Also, add some lashwips, with so many things in melee you will lose warriors each turn before they can strike. Those whips come at 2 points and really help. With the remaining points you should make a vanguard detachment with prime, lictor, lictor and venoms.

The lictors will be pure gold in reducing the amount of fire your warriors will suffer, and the venoms too will help with this. Put them in cover turn 1 and let them absorb as much fire as possible.

Adrenal glands, interesting. On all of them though? I'm definitely inclined to start on them once I get to deploying via Trygon or Tyrannocyte. Lictors, I'll look into them. Admittedly I passed them over at first.

Lahswhips. . . can't do it, I can't bring myself to modify the classic warriors too much.

 Niiai wrote:
I think you will be better served if 3 models have 2 scything tallons for the extra attack. And you put the bonesword on the once with the deathspitters. Just remove them last.

I see what you're saying. . . but like above, I can't bring myself to mod the classic models.

shogun wrote:

Lets pick a few enemy units and compare the points with the same amount of warriors:
. . . But all other decent shooty units take down warriors easily.

Yeaaahhh, mathhammer never really tells the whole story. I'm going to wait until after a few games.

shogun wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
I wasn't taking it too seriously at first, and then I realized that it shoots 128 S5 AP -1 shots in a round, hitting on 3+ from the Primes. That's a little scarier than I was giving it credit for. I think I'll start assembly with this target in mind, play some rounds and adjust it a bit.

You really think your whole army get to shoot each and every turn with 18 inch deathspitters? Your lucky if some can shoot at turn 2 and only if you get first turn to begin with. The warrior unit that get's the best 'advance' result will be taking down first, also.

It's your funeral but if you like it, then go for it man...

A malanthrope is a great addition to your army and also consider an aegis defence line.

I've been playing this game for 20 years. Of course I don't expect my whole army to get to shoot each and every turn. But I also wasn't expecting their firepower to potentially match 10 TLAC Razorbacks.

It's likely I'll eventually get a Malanthrope, but I don't think the Malanthrope will serve any purpose in the Warrior army. It seems great if I were to sit and shoot, but I'm starting out with a swarm. Likewise, an Ageis line doesn't really feel like the spirit of things.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Yeaaahhh, mathhammer never really tells the whole story. I'm going to wait until after a few games.

Not a lot of tactics when you just move 7x9 warriors forward. Take 5+ average enemy armies from the armylists section and put them in front of your army. Then play it out with starting first and starting second.

 Insectum7 wrote:
It's likely I'll eventually get a Malanthrope, but I don't think the Malanthrope will serve any purpose in the Warrior army. It seems great if I were to sit and shoot, but I'm starting out with a swarm.

Let's get this straight... You don't want to switch a tyranid prime for a malanthrope that moves almost just as fast and gives every Tyranid warrior unit -1 to hit? For me that would be mandatory, believe me..

You could use your command points to reroll the malanthrope advance dice to keep up BTW.

So last night I had a game VS a friend's Tau list for a tourney. It's 1500 and a combined Maelstrom + Eternal War mission, so we were doing Scouring+Cloak and Shadows.


My list:
Swarmlord
Malanthrope (warlord)
20 Genes
16 Hormas
16 Hormas

3 Hive Guard (Impalers)

Trygon
Mawloc
3 Biovores

Tyrannocyte (Barbed Stranglers)


His list:
4 Commanders (3 Missle, 1 Fusion Deep Striking. One had the 6" hit reroll thing)
Longstrike
2 Hammerheads (the other weird looking gun)
A bunch of Shield and Marker drones


First off, we were on a bit of a sub-optimal table, as we had barely and LoS blocking terrain, so i was already on the back foot. Secondly, we were doing corner deployment, which made it very easy for him to castle up. Thirdly, as he was deploying the last objective, we had 3/4 of the Scouring ones in corners, but then he loaded the last one in the centre - and as he got to pick corners, he chose the corner with another objective next to it, giving me the one with only a Maelstrom obj and an adjacent objective. Fourthly, it then transpired that his corner was the Primary objective. Fifthly, despite my +1 I failed to go first, so he deleted a unit of Hormas for first blood and a Hive guard T1 (despite -2 to his shooting from the Mal and mission).


So, there's all the stuff I've noted as to why the odds were stacked against me from the get go :p. In any case, I elected to come in first turn as otherwise my few models on the table were just going to continue to get pummeled. (In hindsight, I probably should've hid right at the back of my deployment zone since only the Hammerheads could've hit me, and forced him to move forward a bit if he wanted to shoot me with more than just them.) Almost all my shooting whiffed quite badly, only killing about 2-3 Shield drones between Biovores, Hive Guard, Trygon and pod. The genes got Catalyst and Hive Commandered forwards, and melted a unit of drones, then consolidated forwards into another unit - his Commanders were sadly too far back to tag this turn.


He dropped down with his commander and took 6 wounds off Swarmy, then popped the reroll aura and deleted both him and the Mawloc (who had also failed to do more than kill a drone or two), as well as bringing the Genes down to 10 with all his SMS.


In my turn 2 the remaining genes charged another drone unit and managed to drag another commander in (annoyingly 1 died on overwatch so I lost 13 attacks) - but the Shield drones took the wounds he got allocated and he survived unharmed. Similarly, my Trygon turned round to deal with the backfield commander, but again with his shield drones he survived with 3 wounds left. My shooting whiffed even more horribly, with Hive Guard and Biovores failing to hit anything, and Tcyte hitting 2/20 shots!


He then proceeded to fall back with everything and delete anything that was still a threat, and that was that, pretty much. I had been ahead on Maelstrom the first two turns but had virtually nothing left after that point (I did technically survive til turn 5 thanks to a lone spore mine though). My conclusions from this game:


- Swarmy is too expensive in a 1500pts game. I would've been better off with a second unit of genes, I think.
- Without Devilgants, the gene slingslot is nowhere near as effective. You need to be able to clear some wrap in order to break them through. In future I would definitely take a Trygon Prime with 30 if I took Swarmy.
- Screening units with Fly are a HUGE problem. I know I had bigger issues this game, but it really felt like this was the clincher. Had it been Kroot I was fighting, I could have easily surrounded models and kept them locked up, meaning my genes would've been safe from shooting. Drones just merrily bobbed away. Possibly unique to this army though as virtually the whole lot had fly.
- I am really not seeing the awesomeness people keep saying Hive Guard and Biovores are. I am aware that mine whiffed horribly the whole game, but with so few shots that was not actually that improbable. I feel like I would want to run either in 6s, not 3s in future - but even with that the points quickly add up and I feel like i might get more mileage somewhere else.
- The "person who places last objective chooses board sides" rule is really dumb.


In any case, what I am now leaning towards is to take Cult stealers with their built-in delivery mechanism so that I don't have to rely on Swarmy to get a unit close enough for a charge. Also debating whether I could instead use him to slingshot a unit of 30 Gargoyles 24" up and then lock stuff up better...

On the bright side, unlike last edition it didn't feel like we had no hope at all of beating tau. Had I made slightly better decisions., not rolled as badly and had a slightly different list, things might have been different!

Benlisted wrote:
So, there's all the stuff I've noted...

Same problem as every other 'a bit of everything' tyranid armylist. Alle your units move at a different pace, got a different role and you don't commit to a single strategy. If you wan't to overrun the enemy then you need as much 'In their face' units as possible.

Benlisted wrote:
- I am really not seeing the awesomeness people keep saying Hive Guard and Biovores are. I am aware that mine whiffed horribly the whole game, but with so few shots that was not actually that improbable. I feel like I would want to run either in 6s, not 3s in future - but even with that the points quickly add up and I feel like i might get more mileage somewhere else.

Biovores only work if the rest of your armylist works in synergy with them and the need to kill stuff. At 1500 points it's hard to bring enough tyranid shooting to actually kill stuff fast to tip the balance. A Magus (with hypnosis power) + 3 full purestrain genestealer units (or 6x10) are better at taking things down.

shogun wrote:

Benlisted wrote:
So, there's all the stuff I've noted...

Same problem as every other 'a bit of everything' tyranid armylist. Alle your units move at a different pace, got a different role and you don't commit to a single strategy. If you wan't to overrun the enemy then you need as much 'In their face' units as possible.

Benlisted wrote:
- I am really not seeing the awesomeness people keep saying Hive Guard and Biovores are. I am aware that mine whiffed horribly the whole game, but with so few shots that was not actually that improbable. I feel like I would want to run either in 6s, not 3s in future - but even with that the points quickly add up and I feel like i might get more mileage somewhere else.

Biovores only work if the rest of your armylist works in synergy with them and the need to kill stuff. At 1500 points it's hard to bring enough tyranid shooting to actually kill stuff fast to tip the balance. A Magus (with hypnosis power) + 3 full purestrain genestealer units (or 6x10) are better at taking things down.

Well the issue with doing this with pure nids is that, at 1500 at least, you simply can't commit enough to reserves - you can fit about 3 units, so a prime and devilgants, then either 2 gene taxis or one and swarmy, which costs 1300-1350. You then are basically pigeonholed into taking the cheapest stuff possible to fill out the list to enable your reserve slots. Other option is to run up the table - and to be going honest outside of going for about 60 genes I think I would've gotten shot off the table before getting there (and even that would not have had fun with 2 turns out tau shooting).

So yeah, what I am feeling is the t prime with gants, with ambushing cult stealers en masse (as I did say at the bottom of my post ). It's a bit annoying that we probably need to add in cult units at lower points though, here's hoping the codex changes that.

I think you need to commit to melee or range at this point lol. Ether get an exocrine or 2 and 2 broods of biovores and hive guard bubble wrapped with gaunts or go all in melee with chaff on the table and ds everything into his face. When we get to 2000pts you can take a more balanced list but vs this floating gunline you need more punch.

So I thought about taking a Malanthrope, supporting 1-2 exocrines & generally providing that 1st turn buffer on the Alpha Strike.

But then I thought, I could just take a Mawloc instead. I honestly don't see why you wouldn't. If you can hit 2 units, I think you are fine.

shogun wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Yeaaahhh, mathhammer never really tells the whole story. I'm going to wait until after a few games.

Not a lot of tactics when you just move 7x9 warriors forward. Take 5+ average enemy armies from the armylists section and put them in front of your army. Then play it out with starting first and starting second.

 Insectum7 wrote:
It's likely I'll eventually get a Malanthrope, but I don't think the Malanthrope will serve any purpose in the Warrior army. It seems great if I were to sit and shoot, but I'm starting out with a swarm.

Let's get this straight... You don't want to switch a tyranid prime for a malanthrope that moves almost just as fast and gives every Tyranid warrior unit -1 to hit? For me that would be mandatory, believe me..

You could use your command points to reroll the malanthrope advance dice to keep up BTW.

A: "simulation" doesnt accurately represent terrain, movement, dice swings, player mistakes, missions, or even wounds against units of multi-wound models very well. I'm fine with losing a few games while I actually play it out.

B: Well, maybe since I can still have two Primes, its a possibility. At the moment I think being able to split my force up into "wings", rather than clustering it all, will serve me well. So I'm drawn to the redundancy of Primes. Like I said though, I'll probably get one (or two) eventually.

. . .

I'd rather get some ideas about evolving the list in other ways, like Tyrannocyte/Trygon deep striking, Exocrine/Tyrannofex fire support, waves of Gaunts, etc. One thing I'm really curious about, has anyone had any good experiences with the Haruspex?

 Insectum7 wrote:

One thing I'm really curious about, has anyone had any good experiences with the Haruspex?

I've gotten two games in with mine so far but in both instances it was faced with an inordinate amount of plasma (first game was a 2v2 with one player bringing 20x Chosen with max plasma, second was 1v1 vs a Guilliman gunline with 4x Hellblaster squads) and as a result they didn't get to do much besides soak a lot of firepower before dying (T8 is nice). I think it has potential but it really wants a Tyrannocyte to limit the amount of turns it can be shot at since everyone that looks at its stats will immediately put it as target priority #1.

I've played several games with 4 units of 3 Warriors. Just don't see what has anyone excited. They haven't done anything to tip the game one way or the other.

xmbk wrote:
I've played several games with 4 units of 3 Warriors. Just don't see what has anyone excited. They haven't done anything to tip the game one way or the other.

Then that's a good unit. If they had an impact equivalent to their cost and didn't tip the game against you, and provided Synapse at the same time, then they've done their job. Nobody is saying they are the new Flyrant, just a good troop choice

xmbk wrote:
I've played several games with 4 units of 3 Warriors. Just don't see what has anyone excited. They haven't done anything to tip the game one way or the other.

I'm with you. Not impressed with them tbh. Providing synapse from the troop slot is nice and all, but eh. Make them characters in the codex and then we're cooking with salami.

 SHUPPET wrote:

xmbk wrote:
I've played several games with 4 units of 3 Warriors. Just don't see what has anyone excited. They haven't done anything to tip the game one way or the other.

Then that's a good unit. If they had an impact equivalent to their cost and didn't tip the game against you, and provided Synapse at the same time, then they've done their job. Nobody is saying they are the new Flyrant, just a good troop choice

This.

People always forget that this is the ultimate end of rule design.

 luke1705 wrote:

xmbk wrote:
I've played several games with 4 units of 3 Warriors. Just don't see what has anyone excited. They haven't done anything to tip the game one way or the other.

I'm with you. Not impressed with them tbh. Providing synapse from the troop slot is nice and all, but eh. Make them characters in the codex and then we're cooking with salami.

Why do you need synapse from the troop section when you can just pick a broodlord and/or malanthrope that can't be targeted? You need to fill those HQ spots anyway.

I woul say we mostly do that to make some person in the netherlands cringe.

 Niiai wrote:
I woul say we mostly do that to make some person in the netherlands cringe.

If I would cringe about every bad decision you make Niiai, I would be mad furious by now.

 Niiai wrote:
I woul say we mostly do that to make some person in the netherlands cringe.

can confirm, this is a big priority for me when list building. Right up there on the checklist next to taking AT guns


Automatically Appended Next Post:

shogun wrote:

Put average+ armies against a warrior army and see how fast the die. If you can do a little bit of math and got half a brain it's so obvious.

You talk about this a lot, but have you actually done the math yourself?

I'm going to use the example you provided so that you can't say I'm cherry picking some weapon profile, and tell you some of the units that take more damage from Basilisk shots than 30ppm kit Tyranid Warriors.

Exocrine
Tyrannofex
Trygon & Trygon Prime
Swarmlord
Hive Tyrant (even completely naked)
Tervigon



and more I can't even be bothered checking. Only the really point efficient wounds (Carnifex & Mawloc) seemed to tank shots better than them. To most everything else Warriors are tankier vs multiwound weaponry.

So your logic for why we shouldn't take them rules out so many units that we know are fine. Warriors aren't half as bad as you think they are, I think you just misunderstand the unit.

 SHUPPET wrote:

You talk about this a lot, but have you actually done the math yourself?

I'm going to use the example you provided so that you can't say I'm cherry picking some weapon profile, and tell you some of the units that take more damage from Basilisk shots than 30ppm kit Tyranid Warriors.

Exocrine
Tyrannofex
Trygon & Trygon Prime
Swarmlord
Hive Tyrant (even completely naked)
Tervigon

and more I can't even be bothered checking. Only the really point efficient wounds (Carnifex & Mawloc) seemed to tank shots better than them. To most everything else Warriors are tankier vs multiwound weaponry.

So your logic for why we shouldn't take them rules out so many units that we know are fine. Warriors aren't half as bad as you think they are, I think you just misunderstand the unit.

Like I said, It's normally not that simple because there is more to the game then units fighting one on one. But when you look at a full warrior list, it actually is a simple equation. Why? Because a full warrior list only walks forward and takes shooting in the face for 2/3 turns before the can do anything. Thats why I gave a few examples of regular shooty units that got no problem taking down warriors in a one on one (point-wise) shootout.

But you are only comparing basilisk shooting to other tyranid units and try to pass it of as the same kind of 'thing'. An exocrine is a shooty beast that returns 12 plasma shots at 36 inch. But because its more vulnerable to a basilisk shot then the same amount of points warriors, warriors are 'good'? A weird non-argument and actually made me cringe...

Now look at the rest:
Tyrannofex: useless expensive, bad at shooting. You really put this thing in the list of tyranid units that are 'fine'?
Trygon: different role because a trygon brings in a delivery system and can at least deep strike to make sure it can attack something next turn. Apples and oranges.
Swarmlord: Dies to soon to get the best out of its 'free move' gimmick. Even if you build a strategy around it, it is still easy to block it with bubble wrap.
Hive tyrant: Walking-it dies and flying hive tyrant's only work if the really commit to it. Think about 5+ flying hive tyrants with tyrant guard and malanthrope protection. Only as a gimmick list.
Tervigon: Too expensive. Being tough doens't win you games you need to kill stuff. For the same amount of points it's better to get a broodlord + extra gaunts.

If you want to make the claim that a full warrior army could work, then do as I said before; pick 5 different average+ armies from the armylist section and put them in front of each other and let them shoot at the warriors 2/3 turns. Play it out with the warriors going first and second and compare.

If you want to make the claim that warriors do have a place in a balanced/diverse tyranid army then you need to build a strategy around it, and I'am curious to find out what it is. That's because other tyranid units are much better at doing that job. If you use them to walk forward and let them do their thing, then the just die being relatively cheap and useless for 2 turns.

I guess all these pro-warrior players got some great results against the local 12 year old player with the fluffy armylist and actually think warriors are good.

Shogun please do not make a strawman of Shuppet. You are taking his arguments and twisting them.

Shuppet took your argument (warriors die to easy therefore you should not take them I am paraphrasing, but yeah) and looked at what performs worse then warriors in that metrick.

Exocrine, Tyrannofex, Trygon & Trygon Prime, Swarmlord, Hive Tyrant (even completely naked), Tervigo was the list he came up with. Further Shuppet only once who do notiseble better then warriors is Carnifex and Mawlocks because of their low cost.

Now instead of focusing on Shuppets argument, warriors performs well, you are implying a whole lot that Shuppet did not say. Hence building a straw Shuppet that you are 'arguing against'.

Your argumentation is not very good. Some pages back when the question was raised you made a list that would 'beat any warrior list' because you would just have biovores drop spore mines in front of them. This argument can be aplied to any non flying unit. For your 'great insights' (I am using that sarcasticly) there is often little to take away.

I am not doubting you have some good insight into Tyranid tips. But currently you are not representing them in a fruitfull way. On the subject of warriors in particular, a unit that is good because it is very versatily for it's cost (it has guns, can fight mellee, is a troop choise, T4 4+ save and 3 wounds) you are often singeling out one aspect the warrior does not do very well and then you compare then to a specialist unit that performs the function better.

Examples are genestealers are better then warriors in mellee, shrikes are faster then warriors for running across the field, or as Shuppet estrapolates from your argumentation Mawlocks are harder to kill. While all of those statements are true, the warrior would come in second place with a good margine in all of those metrics.

Edit: On a second read through this came out harsher then intended. I am sorry, it is not meant personally, AKA something about your personthat is wrong. You are a great contributer to this thread. It is meant as a critique of your argumentation tecnique that often misses it's intended target. I think you can craft your words in a way that brings your points more in focus. I do not think how you are arguing is representing the intent in your reasoning.

 Niiai wrote:
Shogun please do not make a strawman of Shuppet. You are taking his arguments and twisting them.

Shuppet took your argument (warriors die to easy therefore you should not take them I am paraphrasing, but yeah) and looked at what performs worse then warriors in that metrick.

Exocrine, Tyrannofex, Trygon & Trygon Prime, Swarmlord, Hive Tyrant (even completely naked), Tervigo was the list he came up with. Further Shuppet only once who do notiseble better then warriors is Carnifex and Mawlocks because of their low cost.

Now instead of focusing on Shuppets argument, warriors performs well, you are implying a whole lot that Shuppet did not say. Hence building a straw Shuppet that you are 'arguing against'.

Your argumentation is not very good. Some pages back when the question was raised you made a list that would 'beat any warrior list' because you would just have biovores drop spore mines in front of them. This argument can be aplied to any non flying unit. For your 'great insights' (I am using that sarcasticly) there is often little to take away.

I am not doubting you have some good insight into Tyranid tips. But currently you are not representing them in a fruitfull way. On the subject of warriors in particular, a unit that is good because it is very versatily for it's cost (it has guns, can fight mellee, is a troop choise, T4 4+ save and 3 wounds) you are often singeling out one aspect the warrior does not do very well and then you compare then to a specialist unit that performs the function better.

Examples are genestealers are better then warriors in mellee, shrikes are faster then warriors for running across the field, or as Shuppet estrapolates from your argumentation Mawlocks are harder to kill. While all of those statements are true, the warrior would come in second place with a good margine in all of those metrics.

Edit: On a second read through this came out harsher then intended. I am sorry, it is not meant personally, AKA something about your person who is wrong. You are a great contributer to this thread. It is meant as a critique of your argumentation tecnique that often misses it's intended target. I think you can craft your words in a way that brings your points more in focus. I do not think how you are arguing is representing the intent in your reasoning.

You and Shuppet fail to grasp the whole 'warriors walk 2 turns and do nothing' concept, and the difference between a full warrior army and warriors within an average tyranid army. My example about different shooty units against warriors is not about the toughness. Its about the fact that the get two turns of shooting in their face and meanwhile not really excel at anything, even after turn 2/3. Comparing warriors toughness with other tyranid units has nothing to do with that and is not an argument for anything. Being cheap for a 3 wounds model doesn't kill enemy units, it just takes a bit longer to kill. Take almost every decent enemy unit and compare them with walking warriors for the same amount of points and you will see that 80% of the time the bite the dust.

We can, at the very least, dial down the snark and make much more of an effort to be polite.

ta.

Yeah I don't even know what shogun is talking about any more. I didn't say really any of that, just saying that the argument that they can't be used cause of multi wound math is quite flimsy. Point for point they are tanker than a TFex, except with much nicer shooting and a ridiculous assault, and the largest Synapse coverage in the dex . Not sure what the problem here is other than you prefer Stealers, which is nice, and Stealers are a great unit, but they take a much bigger points investment to be used properly unlike Warriors which you can kinda just throw in to compliment the right builds, and the Synapse bubble they provide supports this.

Also, the units you listed are the ones they are TANKIER than, not equal to, so those comparisons are squat. It's not an argument I was making to begin with but your logic is full of holes. Trygons tank the hits more or less the same, but you list their strengths as justifying it, but completely ignore everything the same amount of points in Warriors do that Trygons don't. Rinse and repeat all the way down that list.

Also, the fact that they 3 wound models I haven't even touched on, but it means 1/4 wounds from 2D guns get shrugged off again, making them significantly tanker on top of the maths, but it's whatever.

Your logic and tone seems more invested in defending yourself from being wrong, rather than actually rationally and open minded let discussing it so I'm going to bow out. But with statements like these:

shogun wrote:
But because its more vulnerable to a basilisk shot then the same amount of points warriors, warriors are 'good'? A weird non-argument and actually made me cringe...
--
I guess all these pro-warrior players got some great results against the local 12 year old player with the fluffy armylist and actually think warriors are good.
--
If you can do a little bit of math and got half a brain it's so obvious
--
Etc.

As someone who can sometimes take gaming a little too seriously, trust me - you are getting WAAY to salty about this.

I play against legit competition. My time is valuable to me and I deliberately avoid and turn down games against non-competitive players. However I don't feel I nor anyone else should have to post out their meta to have an opinion as you previously requested, because I think if someone has an incorrect opinion the strength of your perspective should be enough to disprove it, rather than wild baseless claims towards the quality of their opponents. Just some thoughts. Let's keep it on track.