SideshowLucifer wrote: As a pure Nid player, I can say the only list I really have problems against currently is the stupid Rowboat list. Against literally every other army, I win more than lose. Nids are in a great spot on a competitive level. We just don't have that one gimmick that people cling to for the cheesy wins.
Its a Rock/Paper/Scissor list, i tabled Gman heavy lists with Harlequins.
As for Nids, they are weak to to it b.c they have enough either ML/Lascannons and/or enough Bolters/HB's and others high volume mid str shots.
You really need to make sure you have Malanthropes against it, b.c the -1 to hit negates 3's, they miss and cant be re-rolled, it really helps a lot. Taking 2 Malanthropes is basically mandatory. You also need some Turn 1-2 assault units to tie up the heavy fire power. With these 2 things you should be able to have a good game (not an easy/auto win but a good game at least).
If our Winged units had -1 to hit, it would be much easier.
Post a small battle report with my current list against a warrior list.
3 wyverns
Playing against 3 warrior primes with spitter and bonesword/lash + 7 x 9 warriors squad with deathspitters + 3x boneswords each.
Roll ICT missions and get a 6, deployment spearhead assault.
warriors deployment:
[url=: Other mawloc helps out his brother and actually wounds the prime but doesn't kill it. primes and warriors try to kill off the wounded mawloc but only wounds 3 times and the mawloc saves two of them. only gets one wound.
No reason to go further. probably did a few things wrong but I think the message is clear.
My armylist is not a lower level casual armylist, as you can see. I got a 'Take all comers" armylist that is very flexible and forces the enemy to act but still got a deep strike element that could harass the other shooty lists and assault lists.
- Great shooting against MC/Tanks
- Enough mortal wounds for the big targets
- Magus could make an imperial knight shoot at his own units. (GSC ambush and then mind control).
- Enough bubble wrap
- 4 characters with force/power weapons and a broodlord for countercharge if needed.
- Flexible units
- Nice psychic powers and capable of blocking powers.
- Spore mines that block movement.
Against a full warrior lists it's so easy to put the game to my hand. Mawloc's can just easily block warriors and even fall back out of close combat with a few scratches. Boneswords are still wounding on a 5+ so not really taking down MC/Tanks easily. Even a wyvern can move 12 inch and lock a warrior squad in close combat. Even without the scions and biovores I could have won this with sheer amount of shooting and falling back out of close combat and shoot again.
Does that mean my list is the best? No, I might struggle with full infantry lists (GSC genestealer army!) and fast shooting units that get first turn. The lists that are actually better at bringing the pain and tipping the balance from turn one onward.
But a walking list with slow units just are just lining up to get killed and outmanoeuvred. I read that your lists include 6 shooty carnifexes + exocrine + warriors? Thats not a lot of reach. It's better to drop the warriors and get a broodlord + another carnifex or free up points for another exocrine. Toughness 4 warriors just gives the enemy an excuse to drop all anti-infantry shooting on the warriors.
I simply don't believe that 'average at everything' is a good thing. Slow is not good for anything. An cheap tyrannocyte with 20 gaunts + 10 devourers upgrades is better at shooting and instead of another unit warriors you get 20 genestealers to do the close combat work. a few boneswords are nice but don't really take down the big targets with Strenght 4. 7x9 warrior list is actually even more silly because you cannot keep a 300 point warrior unit behind to sit on an objective.
I'am looking forward to your battle reports, BTW..
.... Why did you quote me with this gak and address it all to me? The post you quoted literally said I wasn't talking about Warriors. My statements for them so far in this thread said they were good for a unit that didn't require as heavy points investment as Stealers, to fill multiple roles in an army that calls for them. So you go and build a maxed out list of Warriors, with zero cannons, and use them the exact opposite of what I said makes them a good unit. Yeah I don't expect that army to win vs a list vs of camped up artillerly with Mawlocs in reserves LOL. Is this supposed to be some revelation to me? What units are they providing Synapse to? Which focused composition are they complimenting with their versatility? Which heavy shooting units are they throwing their shooting dice with while making them a risky unit to assault, thanks to their CC role? Where's the 21 cannons that would have only been 20 pts all up to include?
Stop quoting me about Warriors dude, you're really annoying, plus you don't actually read what has been said =) I've also mentioned earlier that I've said all I want to about Warriors, this is like the third time in a row you've quoted me that I've had to say I don't want to talk about Warriors, please stop forcing me to talk about Warriors, especially if you aren't even going to listen. I have no interest in blocking you but it's getting absurd. Have a nice day and move on.
SHUPPET wrote: So you go and build a maxed out list of Warriors.
Ehh, it was my list I posted earlier. Which is really just a starting point for my collection because of a lapse in sanity and some ebay purchases. . .
SHUPPET wrote: Stop quoting me about Warriors dude, you're really annoying, plus you don't actually read what has been said =) I've also mentioned earlier that I've said all I want to about Warriors, this is like the third time in a row you've quoted me that I've had to say I don't want to talk about Warriors, please stop forcing me to talk about Warriors, especially if you aren't even going to listen. I have no interest in blocking you but it's getting absurd. Have a nice day and move on.
Last thing you wrote was 'if you don't understand that warriors are good then you are a lower level casual player' I don't force you to do anything so if you don't want to talk about warriors, then don't. But don't make such a remark and then go 'I don't want to talk about this anymore' because thats only about having the last word. My example battle report shows two things. 1: That I'am not a lower level player considering my armylist. 2: How warriors interact with enemy units and how the fail to really do anything because of their limits. If you think otherwise then provide a complete armylist with warriors included. It's all about the synergy between units that makes them good or not, and I only know you got/use 6 shooty carnifexes and an exocrine (and warriors probably). You wrote that you would provide a battle report and then I wrote that before you do that you should let me know how your armylist looks like so that I could give you a better alternative to test it out. If you don't show me how you use your warriors then don't bother giving advice about them.
Insectum7 wrote:
A: You're way too invested in this.
No, the problem I got with the current tyranid tactics discussions, is the fact that players don't understand synergy between units and don't look at the complete picture, and how units interact which each other. My battle report is not (only) about warriors it's about my own armylist and how to build an effective flexible force. Shuppet thinks its obvious that the warriors wouldn't win against artillery + mawlocs but meanwhile he got 6 carnifexes that move forward with 18 inch guns and basically do the same, and die the same.
Insectum7 wrote:
B: You're terrible at using an army of all Warriors!! I'm still doing it.
Everybody is terrible at using an army of all warriors. Psst, come closer. I let you in on a little secret..its the warriors. The suck!
EDIT: did not see the picture of your old skool tyranid warriors yet. I take it all back you need to make this. Even if you lose all the time its to cool not to do it..
Shogun nobody is saying an all warrior list is good. But Insectum7 wanted to build one and he has all warriors. We said go for it, warrior is a fun unit and the army will be OK. Probably it will be a blast to play for Insectum7.
All you are doing now is telling Insectum7 how much your army would beat his, if they ever met in theory. That is a bit duchy in my opinion. Also, I think you are misunderstanding a lot of you think playing against an all warrior army is an argument against warriors. The performance of the army has nothing to do with how good a warrior is in a better composed list.
Insectum7 I am really loving the look of the old 'ant style warriors'. I see they come on white spruces. Where are they from? :-)
Niiai wrote: Shogun nobody is saying an all warrior list is good. But Insectum7 wanted to build one and he has all warriors. We said go for it, warrior is a fun unit and the army will be OK. Probably it will be a blast to play for Insectum7.
Thats fine, I'am not telling him what is fun or not. How OK that army is going to be depends on the kind of armies he plays against, and this post is about tactics so I give advice about tactics.
Niiai wrote: All you are doing now is telling Insectum7 how much your army would beat his, if they ever met in theory. That is a bit duchy in my opinion.
No, I just used his armylist as an example to show how warriors interact with enemy units and the problems the face. Meanwhile I show Shuppet at what kind of level I play because he thinks I play at a low level because I don't understand warriors. It's directed to him.
Niiai wrote: Also, I think you are misunderstanding a lot of you think playing against an all warrior army is an argument against warriors. The performance of the army has nothing to do with how good a warrior is in a better composed list.
I tell you the same as I told shuppet: then show me that armylist or else its all cheap talk.
Oh man. Those models are so damn ugly but I love them all the same.
Please post batreps with lots of pics!
That said, given the relative circular arguments that seem to be going on about the Warriors, May I suggest we just reach a consensus that "Opinions are divided on Tyranid Warriors" and table the debate for after the Codex gets released with more finalized rules? I feel like the discussion of Warriors is dragging away from pretty much any other discussion at this point.
Bottle games with an un-optimized army of warriors against an artillery list with little to no LoS blocking terrain is kinda...not very useful, regardless of the effectiveness of warriors.
I can write you an optimized warrior-centric list if you like? I do have a podcast talking all about wacky lists, so that is right up my alley.
It is also important to note via G-Man and conscript spam, that conscripts are likely losing access to orders, considering the last article on community that specifically mentions them.
I do think the warrior discussion has sidetracked a lot of what this thread should be about, becoming a "ya-huh, na-uh" battle as opposed to being a "hey, I actually find these to be better than I thought, here's why". I find that all tyranid troops are actually pretty useful, in different circumstances.
Rippers: Best objective grabbers in the dex in my opinion, 33 points, 3 wounds each, and DS is just phenomenal
Termagants: Oh so many uses, but everyone is aware of most, devil gaunt drop, tervi tide of bodies, ultra screen, etc
Warriors: Mid level all-rounder unit, good for backfield combat, mid-front field synapse, decent offensive unit, better support unit for the scarier things
Stealers: Combat monsters, slightly flimsy, best used as fast shock units/ distraction. 20 stealers with buffs will make your opponents butt pucker real fast
Hormagaunts: Least talked about, but one of the best offensive tie up units in the game. Very easily possible to engage an entire gunline simultaneously and taken in great numbers (min 60) simply too many bodies for most armies to deal with, and only 150 points for 30 of them!
that is how I see all the nid troops atm, ymmv
And because I couldnt resist! A very warrior focused list:
HQ malanthrope HQ Tyranid Prime, boneswords, deathspitter, adrenal glands Troops x9 warriors, devourers, flesh hooks, x8 lash whip and boneswords, x1 scything talons, adrenal glands Troops x9 warriors, devourers, flesh hooks, x8 lash whip and boneswords, x1 scything talons, adrenal glands Troops x9 warriors, x3 barbed stranglers, x6 deathspitters, x 6 boneswords, adrenal glands Troops x9 warriors, x3 barbed stranglers, x6 deathspitters, x 6 boneswords, adrenal glands Troops x9 warriors, x3 barbed stranglers, x6 deathspitters, x 6 boneswords, adrenal glands Heavy Support Trygon, toxin spike, three pairs of massive scything talons, bio electric pulse, adrenal glands Heavy Support Trygon, toxin spike, three pairs of massive scything talons, bio electric pulse, adrenal glands
Total: 1999
devourers, flesh hooks and LW&BS on the trygon warriors for the following reasons:
-the price of a deathspitter gets you all 3! -they are first to the fray, and likely to take casualties fast, so better to keep them cheaper -potentially 5 shots per warrior turn 2 for those that survive -LW&BS to deter super hard combat units from engaging outright
Fairly one note, but trygon guys DS in at leisure, 3 units run up in range of prime and maly for that tasty -1.
SHUPPET wrote: So you go and build a maxed out list of Warriors.
Ehh, it was my list I posted earlier. Which is really just a starting point for my collection because of a lapse in sanity and some ebay purchases. . .
I know that, my question is why he posted and addressed it all to ME and used it like some trump card. (Not that you were saying maxed out Warriors was going to be dominant tournament list either, but it's whatever.)
All you are doing now is telling Insectum7 how much your army would beat his, if they ever met in theory. That is a bit duchy in my opinion.
Yeah. More than a little bit.
Niiai wrote: Also, I think you are misunderstanding a lot of you think playing against an all warrior army is an argument against warriors. The performance of the army has nothing to do with how good a warrior is in a better composed list.
People who don't listen to anything, generally misunderstand a lot. Gaming is no exception as this thread has proven.
Last thing you wrote was 'if you don't understand that warriors are good then you are a lower level casual player' I don't force you to do anything so if you don't want to talk about warriors, then don't. But don't make such a remark and then go 'I don't want to talk about this anymore' because thats only about having the last word.
After you posted multiple times that people who disagree with you must be low level or casual, I asked people to stop using this as the crux of their argument because it's just baseless projection. You quoted that post and told me how I was wrong to say this as well as being wrong about Warriors. So I responded back with the same argument you have been using, ironically directed back at you. Then even if you missed that sarcasm, I then clarified a couple of posts later to Luke, outright saying that it was purely ironic, 5 hours before you made that wall of words trying to prove how high-level your play is. I know you know this, because I know you are reading every post in here, and most definitely reading all my posts, so even if you completely missed the sarcasm dripping off my initial post lets not pretend you actually thought I was saying this by the time you posted that BR. As has been said, you are way too invested, and went ahead with it anyway because you were too committed at that point.
I don't think, know, or care if you are a low level player. I just want to stop talking bout Warrior's bro. Is it rlly that hard? Since I lasted posted you've mentioned me three times by name spread across different posts, talking about Warriors every time. Cmon man. It's too much. We disagree, get over it and move on.
Ok guys probably time to chill here. Warriors are cool and all (or they aren't) but personally I'm ready to talk about literally anything else and just let that dead horse be.
For example, I've seen that rhinos are like stupidly durable because people don't want to deal with their high toughness and the sheer number of wounds they have when other, more important, threats exist. What if we did the same thing but with like hive crones and or harpies, while the real threats of our lists (gene stealers?) ran into them. I feel like we started saying "turn 1 assaults aren't super competitive" and they really aren't. But maybe if we started having our shooty monsters just assaulting random stuff to tie it up, we could free up a lot of our list. But I feel like you'd need at LEAST 4 of those guys to saturate, and then probably still an exocrine or two to give your opponent something that his lascannons actually want to shoot at.
Back in 5th edition when I did most of my playing I learned that tyranids do not want to attack in waves. You need to get your units into the action at the same time or they just die like in a shooting gallery.
What sort of list would you be imagening something like that in luke?
If you start your list with 4 hive chrone / harpies the next dessision is if you want slingshot swarmlord with tyrant guards for defense and then genestealers in a ravener tunnel. If the budget does not streach 9 ravaners can also be slingshot, just conga line bacl to the swarmlord.
The list probably also wants mawlocks popping up. Or some range support in the form of exoshrines, biovores or maybe gaunts or warriors in a trygon.Ideally you would start chipping away on the left or right flank and then eat your way to the other side.
I just feel that the rhino is better suitef or this. While it is a bit costy in lists it has a bucket of wounds. It is much more durable for it's points then the harpy / hive crone is. If you half kill a harpy or hive crone it limps on. If you half kill a rhino those inside are just fine.
Well I've been thinking about Smite Spam. Heres a Theory craft list I've been noodling about:
Broodlords, x3 These are our best smite packages IMHO...around 486?
Two Warrior Broods to provide some shoot support, and Synapse...say x6,+2 Strangle, + Adrenals, + Rending? around 168? so lets take two for 336
Now some swarms to scare the foe while you do your smite thing...x30 Hormagaunts, x3 the warriors try to corral them, and foe wonders what to shoot.
I think that runs about 1300 (1272 or so) so that leaves plenty of points...what to add? Hive Crones? A supreme command of Winged Tyrants?(Flying Smites!) I'm kinda leaning towards two Tyrannocytes+ Strangles full of Zoeys.
I don't know how this would play, but I surely think your foe will have a chore figuring out how to fight you.
pinecone77 wrote: Well I've been thinking about Smite Spam. Heres a Theory craft list I've been noodling about:
Broodlords, x3 These are our best smite packages IMHO...around 486?
Two Warrior Broods to provide some shoot support, and Synapse...say x6,+2 Strangle, + Adrenals, + Rending? around 168? so lets take two for 336
Now some swarms to scare the foe while you do your smite thing...x30 Hormagaunts, x3 the warriors try to corral them, and foe wonders what to shoot.
I think that runs about 1300 (1272 or so) so that leaves plenty of points...what to add? Hive Crones? A supreme command of Winged Tyrants?(Flying Smites!) I'm kinda leaning towards two Tyrannocytes+ Strangles full of Zoeys.
I don't know how this would play, but I surely think your foe will have a chore figuring out how to fight you.
I made a scary Tyrant swarm list with 6 Tyrants(3 winged Mon rending claws /3 HVC Mon rending claws) a Swarmlord 3 broods of 3 Rippers, a malanthrope and a 6 strong brood of Tyrant guard all in a battalion and 2 supreme command detachments. That's 7 smites and the other 3 powers with alpha protection in the form of malan shroud and 2+ Tyrant guard wounds (18 total) which will get catalyst asap. I think it could really work Swarmie guard malan and 3 walkrants take center flyrants go for high priority threats and rippers cap objectives.
Insectum7 I am really loving the look of the old 'ant style warriors'. I see they come on white spruces. Where are they from? :-)
Mostly they are form the old Tyranid Attack, and Advance Space Crusade games. Each box came with six. Also they were sold in sets of three as a stand alone box. Occasionally you can find a metal one, it's even uglier.
EDIT: did not see the picture of your old skool tyranid warriors yet. I take it all back you need to make this. Even if you lose all the time its to cool not to do it..
It's where my Tyranid army is starting, on principle. As a guy who enjoys using other generalists (Tactical Squads) and winning games with them, I'm thinking I can get decent mileage out of them esp once I start diversifying my collection. We shall see.
. . .
Leaving discussion aside about the Warriors. . .Tyrannocytes!!! Anybody get good mileage out of Tyrannocytes? What do you deliver with them? Or does everybody prefer Trygons even though they're limited to bringing troops?
pinecone77 wrote: Well I've been thinking about Smite Spam. Heres a Theory craft list I've been noodling about:
Broodlords, x3 These are our best smite packages IMHO...around 486?
Two Warrior Broods to provide some shoot support, and Synapse...say x6,+2 Strangle, + Adrenals, + Rending? around 168? so lets take two for 336
Now some swarms to scare the foe while you do your smite thing...x30 Hormagaunts, x3 the warriors try to corral them, and foe wonders what to shoot.
I think that runs about 1300 (1272 or so) so that leaves plenty of points...what to add? Hive Crones? A supreme command of Winged Tyrants?(Flying Smites!) I'm kinda leaning towards two Tyrannocytes+ Strangles full of Zoeys.
I don't know how this would play, but I surely think your foe will have a chore figuring out how to fight you.
I made a scary Tyrant swarm list with 6 Tyrants(3 winged Mon rending claws /3 HVC Mon rending claws) a Swarmlord 3 broods of 3 Rippers, a malanthrope and a 6 strong brood of Tyrant guard all in a battalion and 2 supreme command detachments. That's 7 smites and the other 3 powers with alpha protection in the form of malan shroud and 2+ Tyrant guard wounds (18 total) which will get catalyst asap. I think it could really work Swarmie guard malan and 3 walkrants take center flyrants go for high priority threats and rippers cap objectives.
I would go for full deathspitter flying hive tyrants and leave swarmlord home. Deploy a malanthrope + unit tyrant guard + flying hive tyrants. Then drop another unit tyrant guard mid field with a tyrannocyte and cast catalyst on it. Tyrants fly towards that unit. Two turns protection step by step.
Can't agree that Hormagaunts are good for much. The pile-in is great for tying up multiple units, but there are many ways to negate/minimize that. And they die way too easy without being a meaningful damage threat. Two units of 30 can easily be made inconsequential and finished off at leisure. They need something, I imagine it will be better synergies/buffs.
xmbk wrote: Can't agree that Hormagaunts are good for much. The pile-in is great for tying up multiple units, but there are many ways to negate/minimize that. And they die way too easy without being a meaningful damage threat. Two units of 30 can easily be made inconsequential and finished off at leisure. They need something, I imagine it will be better synergies/buffs.
Why do you think so? I found them really great. They tie enemy units really fast, for cheap and usually negating fall backs. What's not to love?
Thought i'd throw my 2c in, I finished third in a local RTT with the following 1500 point nid list. I was 1 point off of second becase my second game an 3 morka/gorka list had some amazingly lucky rolls for his cannons.
List functioned as you would of guessed, get the stealers up the board as fast as possible while using artillery to take out some key units. Use the guard to protect the swarmlord and stick the termies in the trygon tunnel and surprise dakka 66 shots.
Biggest Pro of the list - Genestealers for days, seriously turn 1 charges make people tilt so hard.
Biggest Con - shooty lists make quick work of us (bobby g gunline really).
I wouldn't change anything in the list, everything went fairly good and the loss just came down to bad rolls on my part (swarmlord rolling 7 1's against a morka naught )
Game 1 - Bobby G gunline (2 repulsors, redemptor, contemptor, bobby g, apothecary, techmarine)
Game 2 - Morka/Gorka list (3 total) plus the artillery grots. Mad lucky rolls on my opponents side, couldnt do much. By turn 2 it was p much gg.
Game 3 - Space Marines with mass bolters/scouts and 2 storm talons. Thought I would do a lot worse but I was able to seize and get his stuff into combat Turn 1. Destroyed almost 500 pnts turn 1 and after that I just needed to cleanup his troops and win as he forgot to land flyers and I wasnt about to remind him lol.
Overall, list went good, biggest downside of the list for me would be swarmy this tourney, he didnt do much and when he doesn't the list lacks a huge amount of punch needed for stuff like morkas/gorkas/knights, etc.. He did kill gulliman once but than he turtled up when he ressed with another 6 wounds. I also hate that I have to spend 111 pnts just to keep my swarmlord safe, give me 9w on him, theres no reason he should be 12 when models like gulli/dp's are below the limit.
pinecone77 wrote: Well I've been thinking about Smite Spam. Heres a Theory craft list I've been noodling about:
Broodlords, x3 These are our best smite packages IMHO...around 486?
Two Warrior Broods to provide some shoot support, and Synapse...say x6,+2 Strangle, + Adrenals, + Rending? around 168? so lets take two for 336
Now some swarms to scare the foe while you do your smite thing...x30 Hormagaunts, x3 the warriors try to corral them, and foe wonders what to shoot.
I think that runs about 1300 (1272 or so) so that leaves plenty of points...what to add? Hive Crones? A supreme command of Winged Tyrants?(Flying Smites!) I'm kinda leaning towards two Tyrannocytes+ Strangles full of Zoeys.
I don't know how this would play, but I surely think your foe will have a chore figuring out how to fight you.
I made a scary Tyrant swarm list with 6 Tyrants(3 winged Mon rending claws /3 HVC Mon rending claws) a Swarmlord 3 broods of 3 Rippers, a malanthrope and a 6 strong brood of Tyrant guard all in a battalion and 2 supreme command detachments. That's 7 smites and the other 3 powers with alpha protection in the form of malan shroud and 2+ Tyrant guard wounds (18 total) which will get catalyst asap. I think it could really work Swarmie guard malan and 3 walkrants take center flyrants go for high priority threats and rippers cap objectives.
Sounds interesting! My build uses the Warriors as my "Counter Alpha" Hopefully they take the alpha, leaving three Broods of Hormiies to storm down the table with three Broodloords. If the foe tries to take out Hormies, the Warriors can fill the gap. Being able to both shoot, and CC they can replace a hormie Brood pretty well, I believe. Meanwhile the 700 point "strike package" you chose is doing work....
Thought i'd throw my 2c in, I finished third in a local RTT with the following 1500 point nid list. I was 1 point off of second becase my second game an 3 morka/gorka list had some amazingly lucky rolls for his cannons.
List functioned as you would of guessed, get the stealers up the board as fast as possible while using artillery to take out some key units. Use the guard to protect the swarmlord and stick the termies in the trygon tunnel and surprise dakka 66 shots.
Biggest Pro of the list - Genestealers for days, seriously turn 1 charges make people tilt so hard.
Biggest Con - shooty lists make quick work of us (bobby g gunline really).
I wouldn't change anything in the list, everything went fairly good and the loss just came down to bad rolls on my part (swarmlord rolling 7 1's against a morka naught )
Game 1 - Bobby G gunline (2 repulsors, redemptor, contemptor, bobby g, apothecary, techmarine)
Game 2 - Morka/Gorka list (3 total) plus the artillery grots. Mad lucky rolls on my opponents side, couldnt do much. By turn 2 it was p much gg.
Game 3 - Space Marines with mass bolters/scouts and 2 storm talons. Thought I would do a lot worse but I was able to seize and get his stuff into combat Turn 1. Destroyed almost 500 pnts turn 1 and after that I just needed to cleanup his troops and win as he forgot to land flyers and I wasnt about to remind him lol.
Overall, list went good, biggest downside of the list for me would be swarmy this tourney, he didnt do much and when he doesn't the list lacks a huge amount of punch needed for stuff like morkas/gorkas/knights, etc.. He did kill gulliman once but than he turtled up when he ressed with another 6 wounds. I also hate that I have to spend 111 pnts just to keep my swarmlord safe, give me 9w on him, theres no reason he should be 12 when models like gulli/dp's are below the limit.
Nice list! Good result. Yeah at 1500 Swarmy is kinda too many eggs in one basket. The "issue" for Nids is as always good AT, we lost our beloved Haywire Templates, that solve so many problems. Has anyone tried out Shock gun Hive Guard? maybe add those in, lose Swarmy, and a second Brood Lord? That would change your list, but not how it plays...might be worth playtesting a time or two.
pinecone77 wrote: Well I've been thinking about Smite Spam. Heres a Theory craft list I've been noodling about:
Broodlords, x3 These are our best smite packages IMHO...around 486?
Two Warrior Broods to provide some shoot support, and Synapse...say x6,+2 Strangle, + Adrenals, + Rending? around 168? so lets take two for 336
Now some swarms to scare the foe while you do your smite thing...x30 Hormagaunts, x3 the warriors try to corral them, and foe wonders what to shoot.
I think that runs about 1300 (1272 or so) so that leaves plenty of points...what to add? Hive Crones? A supreme command of Winged Tyrants?(Flying Smites!) I'm kinda leaning towards two Tyrannocytes+ Strangles full of Zoeys.
I don't know how this would play, but I surely think your foe will have a chore figuring out how to fight you.
I made a scary Tyrant swarm list with 6 Tyrants(3 winged Mon rending claws /3 HVC Mon rending claws) a Swarmlord 3 broods of 3 Rippers, a malanthrope and a 6 strong brood of Tyrant guard all in a battalion and 2 supreme command detachments. That's 7 smites and the other 3 powers with alpha protection in the form of malan shroud and 2+ Tyrant guard wounds (18 total) which will get catalyst asap. I think it could really work Swarmie guard malan and 3 walkrants take center flyrants go for high priority threats and rippers cap objectives.
Sounds interesting! My build uses the Warriors as my "Counter Alpha" Hopefully they take the alpha, leaving three Broods of Hormiies to storm down the table with three Broodloords. If the foe tries to take out Hormies, the Warriors can fill the gap. Being able to both shoot, and CC they can replace a hormie Brood pretty well, I believe. Meanwhile the 700 point "strike package" you chose is doing work....
Thought i'd throw my 2c in, I finished third in a local RTT with the following 1500 point nid list. I was 1 point off of second becase my second game an 3 morka/gorka list had some amazingly lucky rolls for his cannons.
List functioned as you would of guessed, get the stealers up the board as fast as possible while using artillery to take out some key units. Use the guard to protect the swarmlord and stick the termies in the trygon tunnel and surprise dakka 66 shots.
Biggest Pro of the list - Genestealers for days, seriously turn 1 charges make people tilt so hard.
Biggest Con - shooty lists make quick work of us (bobby g gunline really).
I wouldn't change anything in the list, everything went fairly good and the loss just came down to bad rolls on my part (swarmlord rolling 7 1's against a morka naught )
Game 1 - Bobby G gunline (2 repulsors, redemptor, contemptor, bobby g, apothecary, techmarine)
Game 2 - Morka/Gorka list (3 total) plus the artillery grots. Mad lucky rolls on my opponents side, couldnt do much. By turn 2 it was p much gg.
Game 3 - Space Marines with mass bolters/scouts and 2 storm talons. Thought I would do a lot worse but I was able to seize and get his stuff into combat Turn 1. Destroyed almost 500 pnts turn 1 and after that I just needed to cleanup his troops and win as he forgot to land flyers and I wasnt about to remind him lol.
Overall, list went good, biggest downside of the list for me would be swarmy this tourney, he didnt do much and when he doesn't the list lacks a huge amount of punch needed for stuff like morkas/gorkas/knights, etc.. He did kill gulliman once but than he turtled up when he ressed with another 6 wounds. I also hate that I have to spend 111 pnts just to keep my swarmlord safe, give me 9w on him, theres no reason he should be 12 when models like gulli/dp's are below the limit.
Nice list! Good result. Yeah at 1500 Swarmy is kinda too many eggs in one basket. The "issue" for Nids is as always good AT, we lost our beloved Haywire Templates, that solve so many problems. Has anyone tried out Shock gun Hive Guard? maybe add those in, lose Swarmy, and a second Brood Lord? That would change your list, but not how it plays...might be worth playtesting a time or two.
I have! Shock hive guard and impaler hive guard are both excellent AT choices, the shock hive guard are better for strictly vehicles, where as the impaler hive guard are better for targets beyond just vehicles. Impalers have the advantage of range and non LoS shots, where shock have advantage of mobility. Its kind of a flavors choice kinda scenario
pinecone77 wrote: Well I've been thinking about Smite Spam. Heres a Theory craft list I've been noodling about:
Broodlords, x3 These are our best smite packages IMHO...around 486?
Two Warrior Broods to provide some shoot support, and Synapse...say x6,+2 Strangle, + Adrenals, + Rending? around 168? so lets take two for 336
Now some swarms to scare the foe while you do your smite thing...x30 Hormagaunts, x3 the warriors try to corral them, and foe wonders what to shoot.
I think that runs about 1300 (1272 or so) so that leaves plenty of points...what to add? Hive Crones? A supreme command of Winged Tyrants?(Flying Smites!) I'm kinda leaning towards two Tyrannocytes+ Strangles full of Zoeys.
I don't know how this would play, but I surely think your foe will have a chore figuring out how to fight you.
I made a scary Tyrant swarm list with 6 Tyrants(3 winged Mon rending claws /3 HVC Mon rending claws) a Swarmlord 3 broods of 3 Rippers, a malanthrope and a 6 strong brood of Tyrant guard all in a battalion and 2 supreme command detachments. That's 7 smites and the other 3 powers with alpha protection in the form of malan shroud and 2+ Tyrant guard wounds (18 total) which will get catalyst asap. I think it could really work Swarmie guard malan and 3 walkrants take center flyrants go for high priority threats and rippers cap objectives.
Sounds interesting! My build uses the Warriors as my "Counter Alpha" Hopefully they take the alpha, leaving three Broods of Hormiies to storm down the table with three Broodloords. If the foe tries to take out Hormies, the Warriors can fill the gap. Being able to both shoot, and CC they can replace a hormie Brood pretty well, I believe. Meanwhile the 700 point "strike package" you chose is doing work....
Thought i'd throw my 2c in, I finished third in a local RTT with the following 1500 point nid list. I was 1 point off of second becase my second game an 3 morka/gorka list had some amazingly lucky rolls for his cannons.
List functioned as you would of guessed, get the stealers up the board as fast as possible while using artillery to take out some key units. Use the guard to protect the swarmlord and stick the termies in the trygon tunnel and surprise dakka 66 shots.
Biggest Pro of the list - Genestealers for days, seriously turn 1 charges make people tilt so hard.
Biggest Con - shooty lists make quick work of us (bobby g gunline really).
I wouldn't change anything in the list, everything went fairly good and the loss just came down to bad rolls on my part (swarmlord rolling 7 1's against a morka naught )
Game 1 - Bobby G gunline (2 repulsors, redemptor, contemptor, bobby g, apothecary, techmarine)
Game 2 - Morka/Gorka list (3 total) plus the artillery grots. Mad lucky rolls on my opponents side, couldnt do much. By turn 2 it was p much gg.
Game 3 - Space Marines with mass bolters/scouts and 2 storm talons. Thought I would do a lot worse but I was able to seize and get his stuff into combat Turn 1. Destroyed almost 500 pnts turn 1 and after that I just needed to cleanup his troops and win as he forgot to land flyers and I wasnt about to remind him lol.
Overall, list went good, biggest downside of the list for me would be swarmy this tourney, he didnt do much and when he doesn't the list lacks a huge amount of punch needed for stuff like morkas/gorkas/knights, etc.. He did kill gulliman once but than he turtled up when he ressed with another 6 wounds. I also hate that I have to spend 111 pnts just to keep my swarmlord safe, give me 9w on him, theres no reason he should be 12 when models like gulli/dp's are below the limit.
Nice list! Good result. Yeah at 1500 Swarmy is kinda too many eggs in one basket. The "issue" for Nids is as always good AT, we lost our beloved Haywire Templates, that solve so many problems. Has anyone tried out Shock gun Hive Guard? maybe add those in, lose Swarmy, and a second Brood Lord? That would change your list, but not how it plays...might be worth playtesting a time or two.
I have! Shock hive guard and impaler hive guard are both excellent AT choices, the shock hive guard are better for strictly vehicles, where as the impaler hive guard are better for targets beyond just vehicles. Impalers have the advantage of range and non LoS shots, where shock have advantage of mobility. Its kind of a flavors choice kinda scenario
That's certainly been my feeling last Codex Electro Guard were...not optimal.... But running them up to achieve that magical "threat overload" seems to make them work. And they add to Smite spam, because they toss out Mortal wounds.
Shockguard would be a decent choice to replace swarmlord and patch up that lack of AT - 6 shockguard, a malanthrope and some rippers to replace the swarmlord and tyrant guard should be nice
Well, you need to add a second HQ, so after the second Broodlord, swap the Tyrant for shock...then spend whats left, might swap some Devilgaunts for Termagants if nessisary...but totally doable.
Insectum7 wrote: Leaving discussion aside about the Warriors. . .Tyrannocytes!!! Anybody get good mileage out of Tyrannocytes? What do you deliver with them? Or does everybody prefer Trygons even though they're limited to bringing troops?
I like it how the tie up units and are able to fly away and keep shooting. My big biovore list got two of them to drop in devourer gaunts at the right spot I pair them with 3 mawlocs so that the enemy got a bunch of cheap multi wound MC in their face. That's a specific strategy, and I want to tangle up enemy units and let the spore mines do the rest.
But generally you don't bring a tyrannocyte for the shooting and if you pay a bit more you get a trygon that can drop in 20 genestealers (popular choice). Tyrannocyte got a good amount of shots but low Bskill so sometimes the do nothing and sometimes the can surprise you. But other than that you just use it for a specific strategy to drop in a non-troop unit or when you want to drop in another unit but you don't got the points to pay for a full trygon. If the new codex makes them a bit cheaper and the can benefit from some nice reroll 1 bubble, the could actually be a nice addition.
I have a GT I'm attending in OK this weekend. Wanted to run a different kind of list so this is what I'm bringing.
3 Spearhead Detachments
2 Flyrants with AG, TS and 2x MRC
Malanthrope
15 Termagants
15 Termagants
4 Harpies
5 spore mines
Mucolid Spore *Warlord* ibb.co/fuff65 (link to the spore...it's worth a click)
18 single man units of Biovores.
Playing it one of 2 ways.
If they are mobile try to inflict as many MW with the biovores and smite from the HTs. Use the rest of the fliers to shoot and tie up what can't move over units.
If they are lacking on deepstrike and flying units, move the biovores everyturn to start blocking them in with spore mines, while using the fliers to provide back field pressure while I continue to go NidTrump on them and keep building the wall.
It looks a bit like a one trick pony. Once long ranged weapons take out the synapse the biovores will have a hard time prioratising targets. Flyres can just move over your spore mines.
Niiai wrote: It looks a bit like a one trick pony. Once long ranged weapons take out the synapse the biovores will have a hard time prioratising targets. Flyres can just move over your spore mines.
Besides that it looks like a fun list.
Killing the Malanthrope will be difficult. We're playing ITC so first level ruins will be LoS blocking. Even if they can't see the biovores they'll still be closer on all sides than the malanthrope so without some sniping mechanic they'll have a hard time kiliing it.
The Primus lets me reroll the cult ambush, looking for a 5+ to get in fast and deadly. Swarmy in the Tyrannocyte uses hive commander on himself to get were he wants to be. Rippers for objective and termagaunts to bubblewrap and protect the backlines from enemy deepstrike.
Okay so there is actually a fairly straight forward equation here with Mortal wounds vs. easy-to-kill wounds vs. hard-to-kill wounds.
What I mean is that a Biovore costs 36pts and does 1+ MW 83% of the time for 36pts (I appreciate it lands a sporemine if it misses which may then get blown up before dealing any damage.. ignoring the intrinsic benefit of this, lets just assume 36pts = 83% for 1+ MW (Which is basically false but) will help highlight my point)
A Wyvern kills 3.5-4 GEQ's. Cost approx 100pts. 100pts worth of Biovores does 2.38 wounds. Logic meaning points spent on Wyverns is better (or whichever comparable platform).
The question is at which point do Biovores start out-performing weapons? Because a unit with 10W, T20 and a 2+ re-rollable armour save; a Biovore is unquestionably better than the best regular anti-tank weapon (non-MW causing). An extreme example but there will be a tipping point (granted, please don't use my simplistic 83% = 1+ MW, Because that is bad math!).
Food for thought (which is apt, given the OP title).
Okay so there is actually a fairly straight forward equation here with Mortal wounds vs. easy-to-kill wounds vs. hard-to-kill wounds.
What I mean is that a Biovore costs 36pts and does 1+ MW 83% of the time for 36pts (I appreciate it lands a sporemine if it misses which may then get blown up before dealing any damage.. ignoring the intrinsic benefit of this, lets just assume 36pts = 83% for 1+ MW (Which is basically false but) will help highlight my point)
A Wyvern kills 3.5-4 GEQ's. Cost approx 100pts. 100pts worth of Biovores does 2.38 wounds. Logic meaning points spent on Wyverns is better (or whichever comparable platform).
The question is at which point do Biovores start out-performing weapons? Because a unit with 10W, T20 and a 2+ re-rollable armour save; a Biovore is unquestionably better than the best regular anti-tank weapon (non-MW causing). An extreme example but there will be a tipping point (granted, please don't use my simplistic 83% = 1+ MW, Because that is bad math!).
Food for thought (which is apt, given the OP title).
Can't follow your math, as far as i know a biovore inflicts 1 mortal wound 50% of the time.
A wivern inflicts 6,22 wounds on a T3, 5,25 on a T4, 3,85 on a T 5-7, 2,11 on T8+
3 biovores inflict on average 1,5 MW on any target, this means that the tipping point is:
2+ armor for T3 targets
2+ armor for T4 targets
3+ armor for T5-7 targets
4+ armor for T8+ targets
If the target has those values of armor or better then biovores inflict more wounds than a wivern.
Are there t8 4+ save units? Did you do your math without Armor saves?
AT8 3+ save model 0.39% chance of a wound.
Against T7 3+ it does 0.78% chance of a wound.
Against T3 5+ it does 3.11 wounds (vs 6+ is 3.89)
Unless im missing something?
Each Biovore basically has a 0.42 to do 1 mortal wound and a 0.083 chance of D3 mortal wounds.
I love Biovores, but what makes them good is if they miss you still have a chance to do something. The raw hitting numbers and wounds are not that good tho.
I did the math first without armor saves for different T values, so all wounds were mortal wounds.
After that i calculated what armor save would the target need to make it so that the few mortal wounds of the biovores would actually matter more than the many normal wounds of the wyverns.
Amishprn86 wrote: Are there t8 4+ save units? Did you do your math without Armor saves?
AT8 3+ save model 0.39% chance of a wound.
Against T7 3+ it does 0.78% chance of a wound.
Against T3 5+ it does 3.11 wounds (vs 6+ is 3.89)
Unless im missing something?
Each Biovore basically has a 0.42 to do 1 mortal wound and a 0.083 chance of D3 mortal wounds.
I love Biovores, but what makes them good is if they miss you still have a chance to do something. The raw hitting numbers and wounds are not that good tho.
I like my 8x3 biovore army and there are a few thinks to keep in mind;
- With this amount of mortal wounds I almost always kill a big target right away. So no more returning fire, and the possibility to just remove the thing you that gives you the most grief is a great thing.
- Biovore mines only need to be within 3 inch at the end of the assault phase, so don't actually need to assault to explode. Movement + advance + 3 inch is pretty fast for a floating mine.
- Players underestimate the movement blocking. It's really handy. I combine my biovores with devourer gaunts, and the possibility to block enemy infantry from getting within rapid fire range really helps the gaunts and limits returning fire.
- Biovores are sturdy. 4 wounds, 4+ save. Also 2 attacks believe it or not. Once actually assaulted a big enemy infantry unit with a big bunch of biovores. Enemy unit was forced to 'pile in' and this way I could let the spore mines explode within 3 inch (doesn't specify at who's end of the assault phase..).
- To remove mines it actually cost the enemy a good amount of shooting. Splitting fire means that sometimes rapid fire weapons gives a mine two wounds and some mines nothing. To remove 10 individual mines you actually need to shoot with 2 x 20 lasgun shots.
Amishprn86 wrote: I didnt say it was bad, i even said i like them, i was just showing math b.c i didnt understand Spoletta's math lol
I never said that you said the where bad.
You just wrote that you liked them for their ability to still being able to do something when the miss and I just gave a few examples of that despite the fact that some weapons are better versus some enemy units at wounding.
I just think a lot of players are a little bit to wrapped up with one on one math equations and tend to forget the other tactics involving units.
I love them, but you do have to take them in large enough numbers to be meaningful if you want them to do more than just act as a harassment unit. I think we would see more of them being used if we had a proper kit for them too.
Yeah the biovore is currently horribly priced. I ended up creating my own using the body of a genestealer, inverted arms of large creature's scything talons for the front arms, and the gun of a large barbed strangler for the launcher. Throw in some green stuff for sacs of spore mines and there ya go.
Quick question. I'm building my first box of stealers. Is there any reason NOT to give them one pair each of talons and rending claws? Looking at the index I don't see why I wouldn't.
Spoletta wrote: We desperately need a pyrovore/biovore plastic model.
Them, and a chunk of others have been showing out of stock online for a good while now, my guess because their kits are getting updated or changed for the new dex. Warriors are out, maybe because shrike parts are being included, hive/tyrant guard, carnifexes HOPEFULLY to get a new kit because the current one is ABOMINABLE, not in look, but in how the pieces fit together...Like you MUST puddy the current fex, the gaps in the back are horrendous.
A lot of out of stock is simply because GW got hit hard with massive sales across all ranges at the same time with 8th edition. It's basically pushed their production to the absolute limit and it shows.
This is a good thing as it means that the game is selling really really well!
In the past GW only did one army at a time so they had time to build up stock levels before a launch and also time after to produce more focused on one army over others. Right now they've got all factions selling strong and so little time between codex that they don't have a huge bunch of time to restock before another army is the focus.
I fully expect this to ease off once the codex releases are done. Indeed I'd expect GW to take a small step back with 40K releases and use their Sigma or alternative lines to bolster releases for a while; jus to take some pressure off the model line.
I've heard that I could come here for some tentativ strategic information regarding Nids tactics...
I'm about to go head to head with AM very soon and I'm fine tuning my list all over my head again and again.
This is the first time in 8ed I'm meeting him, and my second match in 8ed.
I'm thinking of bringig a LOT of gaunts x 3, a tervigon and other fun things. I've heard he's probably bringing all the flamers he can field....
So my question is should I either bring another dakkafex OR a pack of venomthropes? a dakkafex that shoots 12 str 7 -1 and charges with the anti personell tail is quite good, but is it better than keeping more gaunts alive that I then can regenerate?
Well 10 flamers kill about 15 gaunts although there is quite a bit of range, as 3 flamers can kill 18 but that would require rolling 3 6;s and then wounding 18 times on a 4+ (I.e not very likely).
So don't be too worried about needing to bring more screening units
I would include a couple of ripperswarm units, which I'm sure you can build with the Bitz you should have after making a few units of Tyranids (I can't remember which kits include them). Use these to deep-strike at moments of opportunity to capture objectures, screen key units from fire or charges or to tie-up shooty units.
A dakkafex is a good shout but it will go down surprisingly quickly to anti-tank firepower (just be aware).
Personally I like a distraction Mawloc or three (very cheap T6 wounds on a surprisingly utilitarian platform!), works well to distract from the other big Nids bugs like Carnifexes and Tervigons.
Hmmm, I hadn't thought of using ripper swarms for that.
I have lots of ripper swarms....
Would you switch one of three termagaunts units with 3 ripper units? then I could hold them back as tactical reserves...
That does sound good.
But I thought a Mawloc didn't quite work as well in 8ed since it can't charge and it's eating a whole lot less than before..?
Trygon can atleast shoot and charge (and possibly fail of course).
Would you bring Mawloc instead of a carnifex? or change Venomthrope to Mawloc?
RogueApiary wrote: Quick question. I'm building my first box of stealers. Is there any reason NOT to give them one pair each of talons and rending claws? Looking at the index I don't see why I wouldn't.
I suggest to put them on as the middle set of limbs and point them downwards while pronouncing the rending claws as primary limbs. That way you have the talons on the models but if they become a suboptimal choice later, you could still use the stealers as pure rending if you don't play too picky pricks all the time.
Reasoning is that whatever the edition rending claws have always been what stealers are about and likely will always be. So let that weapon stick out.
Ideally you wait until the dex hits later this year. Put the models together but leave out the second set of limbs. Again unless someone is an arse they will still play your unfinished models if you tell them you wait for the dex to decide the load-out. In the index there is zero reason to not take them. There is also very little reason to use them. RC are just better against everything with a save of 5+ and better. Demons would be an example where the talons are better. The amount of models with nothing but an invul is not that huge though.
So if you desperately want to finish the models before the dex and have picky opponents, leave the talons off.
NidsNidsNids wrote: Hmmm, I hadn't thought of using ripper swarms for that.
I have lots of ripper swarms....
Would you switch one of three termagaunts units with 3 ripper units? then I could hold them back as tactical reserves...
That does sound good.
But I thought a Mawloc didn't quite work as well in 8ed since it can't charge and it's eating a whole lot less than before..?
Trygon can atleast shoot and charge (and possibly fail of course).
Would you bring Mawloc instead of a carnifex? or change Venomthrope to Mawloc?
Fighting against AM can be an uphill battle for nids, but i think that playing venoms and a lot of stuff that benefits from them (infantry) is a good start. That -1 really hurts on Bs4+ guards, and you can always slap an additional -1 on an enemy unit. Big targets get a rough treatment from AM, they have no shortage of heavy weapons for cheap. Even if he brings flamers, i think that going for number of models is the right way. Mawlocs are fine, they will go down fast, but are really cheap. Instead i would advise against daffexes, they are not going to be useful while still alive.
Another gold model here are lictors, guard's artillery doesn't fly, so just pop a couple of lictors and charge at them. Stopping them from firing for 1 or 2 turns can save the match. If he makes the mistake to put them one near the other you can always charge one and consolidate on both. Lictors have 4 wounds and usually have a 3+ when declaring a charge, so they rarely die from overwatch.
Get some warriors or shrikes to escort your gaunts, they will also benefit from the venoms. A broodlord (or a prime) as a last resort synapse can be handy also.
If you have a catalyst, you either try to protect the Tervigon so that she survives for one turn, or you protect the venoms if they are in LoS.
Yeah, Mawloc is Cheap, and Mortal Wounds Rawk. I'd use Mawlocs, and Lictors against the backline Artty. If you can sprinkle in Devilgaunts you can sit outside of doubletap range and get him to come to you, just fall back so the Flamers are out of range (9+") he might even take them as casualties in frustration, and Then you can charge.
Good luck! And good Hunting! (Against guard luck is needed )
I always charge with gargoyles first and then follow with the genestealers as long as I have the unit engaged. long chargers from outside the range of flamers is also a good tactic for denying that overwatch from them.
I've been using raveners quite successfully as extra bodies to support and screen a Trygon with 20 devgaunts. I have 3 units of 3 (to help fill a brigade) and the red terror all deep strike together along with a Trygon Prime and 20 devgaunts. I equip my raveners with deathspitters but they could be made cheaper with the pistols. I just like the flexibility of deathspitters range and AP. My local meta has quite a few deathguard and primaris players to take advantage of the AP.
Along with that, I take a Malanthrope and 6 individual biovores. I move the biovores so they hit on 5+ and lay down a wall of spore mines to protect the raveners from a counter charge. Once they're down for a turn, their 12" movement turns them into a real pain in the rear for my opponents. I charge them into tanks or other shooty things to disrupt them.
I keep seeing people take biovores in units of 1 instead of 3. Is this so you can place down cheap units to force the opponent to reveal deployment information or is there a reason to do so that I'm not seeing
C4790M wrote: I keep seeing people take biovores in units of 1 instead of 3. Is this so you can place down cheap units to force the opponent to reveal deployment information or is there a reason to do so that I'm not seeing
There are a few reasons.
1. You can cheaply fill a spearhead for an extra CP.
2. We thrive on reserves. I personally use 8 units of reserves. To make this legal, I need as many drops on the board as I can.
3. It makes target priority for my opponent a mess. For example, if he has a Las predator, he has to decide how to split his fire before shooting. Thus increasing the odds that they will waste shots.
There are only a couple downsides worth mentioning. 1 is that they can easily give up first blood, but as tyranids I'm rather used to that. 2 is that you will never get to go first (Or get +1 in ITC) but knowing this is the case is why I make sure I take as many reserve units as possi la to deny my opponents targets and to get the jump on them when I do get first turn.
Baneblade - Lord of War
- Autocannon
- Demolisher cannon
- Heavy Stubber
- Twin heavy bolter
- 2 Lascannon & Twin Heavy Flamer Sponsons
- 2x Lascannon [40pts], 2x Twin heavy flamer
2x 5 Roughriders inc seargant
- hunting lance
1 commissar Elite w / plasma pistol (grav chute)
4x tempetus Scion w meltagun (grav chute)
Retrival mission
1st round:
Tyranids has the initiativ since AM had way more units.
I have all my termagaunts on my left flank facing his mortars and lascannon squads. They are accompanied by my Tervigon (warlord with reroll wounds), Broodlord, 1 carnifex with Stranglethorn, and one with 4 deathspitters
My right flank is zoantrhopes, exocrine, hive tyrant and my last Carnifex with stranglethorn facing his infatnry. They deployed late. The sides should have been reversed, but I it just became that way.
His baneblade is in the middle
Mawloc and 2 ripper squads are burrowed.
We have the spearhead (or whatever the deployment is called where you have a point..)
I advance on all flanks and get very few shots off because of distance. Exocrine finds an elevated position and lightly wounds the Hellhound. The Hellhound takes some wounds from my Dakkafexes as well.
Some cover for my main gaunts force. Very little action. Zoanthropes are out of range
AM first turn is hard. A lot of shooting. My Tervigon gets one or two missiles in her. IMore or less halved with wounds. Exocrine is halved. Hive tyrant is down to 1 wound. I had FNP up on my Hive Tyrant. That saved it.
Hellhound and some infantry moves up to face my termagaunts with flamers. Only fires flames at termagaunts and in total 8 dies..
He also dropped in some rough riders and a the melta squad - they almost killed my Tervigon. 4-5 wounds left.
Second round
Heavy advancing with my right flank - my Hive Tyrant is now very very slow. In order to stay alive he has to charge into CC. Only option is to try with Onslaught. Which works. He gets in CC and doesn't die from 10 overwatch - they only had str 3.
Advancing with my right carnifex as well more firing at Hellhound. Exocrine fires at Banleblade. Hits ok, but he has way to many wounds (24...!!)
Left side is dealing with the newly dropped in people, rough riders are dealt with by termagaunts (fleshborer). The main force is replenished and shoots at hellhound and a infatnry unit (splittfire is awesomme!!) wounding both hellhound and leaves one infantry model left.
First blood is mine.
Charging the hellhound with termagaunts - lose very few to overwatch and box him in. Actually deals a few wounds. Tries to charge with broodlord, but he fails.
Zoanthropes gives onslaught to HT and some wounds at infantry. Nothing big.
Wake up my Mawoc to tamper with his left (my right) flank and the infantry. Much rejoicing. Only deals 1 MW when he appears.
His resopond is of course to shoot more. Kill my Tervigon, reduce my Exocrine to 2 wounds, fire some more missile at my Carnifexes, they all survive for now and has a slight panic about that big monster Mawloc less than 2 inches away from his men while he's fighting my hive tyrant with 1 wound.
He fires all of his infantry and one missile at my Mawloc and kills him. Also charges into my HT with one more group to kill him. Uses a bayonett order so they can attack again in the shooting phase - sneaky sneaky. Doesn't manage to inflict one cruicial wound to him. Str 3 is very low!
Third round
Hellhound dies from smite, so my termagaunts can shoot at some poor unit. I forget that I actually delivers almost 60 shots and overkill a troop.
Resulting charge is failed, but Broodlord comes in and gives 6 wounds to a unit of 4, and then just consolidtes into a new fight. I really like that!
I now own my left flank. Advancing a bit with my second termagaunts squad
Tries to kill more of Banenblade, but all my effort has reduces him by 6 wounds. not enough by a long shot
Bring in Ripper swarms to take a victory points.
A carnifex again is trying to survive by getting into his infantry on his right flank next to my HT. I would love to see that tail in infantry action! Uses onslaught again with sucess! and charges. has 3 wounds left and it should be ok, but with flamers and whatnot he takes 4 wounds from overwatch! and dies file trying.
AM now has a bit more focus and kills off Exocrine and half my zoantrhope squad - lots and lots of shots of low caliber is what takes down zoantrhopes. volume kills them.
I have some rerolls and almighty saves (2 wounds left and needed 6+ to save, to hits incomming dealing D6 each. Managed to reroll into 2 pairs of 6. Great times)
The front termagaunt squad is out of synapse since my broodlord charged... so they first take heavy losses from flamers from baneblade, then from LD.
All in all, Nids are still alive, but need to get in close combat in order to survive. Still possible, but the board is now split with baneblade in the middle.
The end We spent 5 hours doing three rounds each - not that much time wasted on rules. maybe 20 minutes? I don't understand how people can be so quick about battles.....!
But the clock being what is was we had to quit. Nids won by time schedule and the point taking Ripper Swarms...!
In conclusion:
I really liked termagaunts with different wpn and tervigon! what a combo! epsecially againts T4 little saves units
Exocrine is good, but a bit weak against tanks with T8, but dm 2 and two rounds of course makes it up (I'm getting a new one in the mail today! Mawloc where fantastic distracions and would have wrecked his infantry if he had survived.
Not sure about how I played the zoantrhopes this time. Need to think.
Carnifexes are still fun and are decent at shooting.
It would have been fun to replace one of the termagaunts with Genestelaers, but with this much flamers I'm glad I didn't
and boxing in a tank is fun! In 7ed you could just run over them, there's no such option in 8ed I think.
And I should try to avoidj Baneblade. get out of his way, and into CC. don't waste ammo on him. just secure VP and survive.
Hope this was ok!
Normally I lost against Necrons in 7ed. Now I'm almost equal to them and AM is the new king..... I'll take any dirty victory I can!
Good battle report. I would suggest never making a tervigon your warlord it's too easy to kill him and he is already a big target. Yah the bane blade is a tough nut to crack you need to get a few big bugs into assault to put a decent dent into it or sporemine/smite it to death.
Last time I faced a baneblade, I used the horror on it every turn with Zoanthropes and safely ignored it. With a 5+ to hit, it's not that scary anymore.
Good point regarding "The horror"! I'll keep that in mind.
I've never tried having anything else than hive tyrant a warlord, so this was a first. Both hive tyrant and tervigon can be targeted, but HT had inv of 5+, so that's better I guess. Just a spur of the moment, give the 6+ warlord trait to tervigon, it might survive..
We normally play without knowing what the other guy brings out what mission we play.
I think we could start deciding missions in advance. But not knowing what you meet is all fun. Even though I really hate everybody's LoW...
I have a barbed hierodule - I think I need to use it more!
Zimko wrote: Last time I faced a baneblade, I used the horror on it every turn with Zoanthropes and safely ignored it. With a 5+ to hit, it's not that scary anymore.
Ohh, that's nice! I'll have to remember that.
Actually, that plus a Malanthrope is even more interesting...
I found a Tyrnaid Battleforce in one of the less visited FLGS. It has genestealers, warriors, both kinds of gaunts, but weirdly - no HQ unit. I'll buy a Start Collecting box next paycheck but was suprised to see that battleforces were ever sold without HQs.
Is there a primer on Tyranid tactis I could read somewhere? I've been looking over lists, but a lot of the decisions don't make sense to me. I'd like to get an idea of what I want before I start gluing all these tormagaunts to a single weapon profile.
On a side note, I haven't heard anything about a tyranid codex? Is one still expected this year?
ChargerIIC wrote: I found a Tyrnaid Battleforce in one of the less visited FLGS. It has genestealers, warriors, both kinds of gaunts, but weirdly - no HQ unit. I'll buy a Start Collecting box next paycheck but was suprised to see that battleforces were ever sold without HQs.
Is there a primer on Tyranid tactis I could read somewhere? I've been looking over lists, but a lot of the decisions don't make sense to me. I'd like to get an idea of what I want before I start gluing all these tormagaunts to a single weapon profile.
On a side note, I haven't heard anything about a tyranid codex? Is one still expected this year?
Actually I remember that warriors used to be a HQ/Elite option. A lot of info in this post so what kind of armylist decisions look weird to you?
ChargerIIC wrote: I found a Tyrnaid Battleforce in one of the less visited FLGS. It has genestealers, warriors, both kinds of gaunts, but weirdly - no HQ unit. I'll buy a Start Collecting box next paycheck but was suprised to see that battleforces were ever sold without HQs.
Is there a primer on Tyranid tactis I could read somewhere? I've been looking over lists, but a lot of the decisions don't make sense to me. I'd like to get an idea of what I want before I start gluing all these tormagaunts to a single weapon profile.
On a side note, I haven't heard anything about a tyranid codex? Is one still expected this year?
Tyranid book in November.
Briefly, because I'm new to Nids, from what I'm seeing Termagaunts are best outfitted with a mix of Fleshborers and Devourers. Fleshborers are the best weapon for 0 points, giving you (replaceable) wound-soakers. Devourers are sort of amazing guns on the little guys, so you take those for your offensive punch. Some say 15 Fleshborers to 15 Devourers, others prefer a different ratio.
You want at least 10 flesh borers on a squad as others cannot be regened, even if you are not planning on using a tervigon using about a 50/50 split of dev/flesh saves points as you pick which dies though if you are bringing them with trygon tunnel or tyrannocyte then that goes out the window as you want max punch on that first turn.
It was explained in the errata that if you have devourer termagaunts you can still respawn/replenish. they just come back with fleshborers.
So you should bring some fleshborers, because they will always die, but then you keep your devourers for as long as you can. Odds are they'll die faster than you can keep up anyway, but it's a good challenge
Yeah running 10-20 Fleshborers at the front of a 30 man Termagant squad is the best way to do it. If taking Termagants you want some Devourers they are great value, but they are wasted points at the front line too often unless you have delivery.
The Tervigon is one of our worst models by the way just be cautious with relying on that for any sort of serious opponent
When i ran termagants/tervigons i bring 2 tervigons with 3 10 dev 20 flesh gant squads. Its a heavy point investment but nigh invulnerable and a massive amount of dakka.
150 shots a turn rerolling 1s to hit and wound, psychic buff support, and 20 models respawning a turn.
Haven't had a Tervigon live past turn two so far this edition, so I stopped taking them. Holding out on almost everything else to see what the Dex does for us.
SHUPPET wrote: Yeah running 10-20 Fleshborers at the front of a 30 man Termagant squad is the best way to do it. If taking Termagants you want some Devourers they are great value, but they are wasted points at the front line too often unless you have delivery.
Just remember in 8ed you pick which models gets the wound. If you start on a model, you have to continue on that model, but it's not the closest one.
So, you can't spread out wounds to all multi wound models (it's years since that was legal) but you can have Devourers in the front, and just remove Fleshborers from the back, and also replenicsh them from Tervigon.
In theory you have a never ending barrage of assautl 3, range 18" - until someone drops a few rockets on your Tervigon...
SHUPPET wrote: Yeah running 10-20 Fleshborers at the front of a 30 man Termagant squad is the best way to do it. If taking Termagants you want some Devourers they are great value, but they are wasted points at the front line too often unless you have delivery.
Just remember in 8ed you pick which models gets the wound. If you start on a model, you have to continue on that model, but it's not the closest one.
So, you can't spread out wounds to all multi wound models (it's years since that was legal) but you can have Devourers in the front, and just remove Fleshborers from the back, and also replenicsh them from Tervigon.
In theory you have a never ending barrage of assautl 3, range 18" - until someone drops a few rockets on your Tervigon...
Welcome to the tyranid boards NidsNidsNids. None of what shuppet said about the gaunts talked about multi wound models. And I do believe when he says they are wasted when not on the front lines he does not mean putting the devourers in front of the pack, but about delivering them to the front line in a fast way, as opposed to walking/running them up.
But you are in the right place, many good advices on this board.
SHUPPET wrote: Yeah running 10-20 Fleshborers at the front of a 30 man Termagant squad is the best way to do it. If taking Termagants you want some Devourers they are great value, but they are wasted points at the front line too often unless you have delivery.
Just remember in 8ed you pick which models gets the wound. If you start on a model, you have to continue on that model, but it's not the closest one. So, you can't spread out wounds to all multi wound models (it's years since that was legal) but you can have Devourers in the front, and just remove Fleshborers from the back, and also replenicsh them from Tervigon.
In theory you have a never ending barrage of assautl 3, range 18" - until someone drops a few rockets on your Tervigon...
Welcome to the tyranid boards NidsNidsNids. None of what shuppet said about the gaunts talked about multi wound models. And I do believe when he says they are wasted when not on the front lines he does not mean putting the devourers in front of the pack, but about delivering them to the front line in a fast way, as opposed to walking/running them up.
But you are in the right place, many good advices on this board.
Exactly this, it was just more a turn of phrase, putting them in front of the bullets so to speak. Hold over terminology from last edition, basically making sure you got a buffer in front of your Devourer gants or they trade kinda harshly against enemy fire. But you are both entirely right of course
Going to expressly state though that the significant amount of points for a Tervigon are better off spent on more Termagants in your example imo
Yes, I walk them up the board, if you are going to deliver them in a Trygon or something which is also good, I think you may as well just take all Devourers
Transports stuff up a mass devourer-gant list. It's alright dropping that 30 man squad up field, by whatever method you choose, but if their infantry are all sat in transports/out of LOS behind the vehicles then that mass of S4, AP- shooting isn't doing a lot against say a T7, 12 wound transport with a 3+ armour save. If you want to run them you need to be able to spill the infantry out to give the devourer-gants viable targets. You therefore need to match with high strength shooting such as hive guard, excocrines or a mass of smite spam. Played an ork list with mass cannons, kans and lootas in a battle wagon - I won but my termagants did little more than sit on objectives ... if you can kill the battle wagon T1 then the contents become targets for the gants but not before.
ruminator wrote: Transports stuff up a mass devourer-gant list. It's alright dropping that 30 man squad up field, by whatever method you choose, but if their infantry are all sat in transports/out of LOS behind the vehicles then that mass of S4, AP- shooting isn't doing a lot against say a T7, 12 wound transport with a 3+ armour save. If you want to run them you need to be able to spill the infantry out to give the devourer-gants viable targets. You therefore need to match with high strength shooting such as hive guard, excocrines or a mass of smite spam. Played an ork list with mass cannons, kans and lootas in a battle wagon - I won but my termagants did little more than sit on objectives ... if you can kill the battle wagon T1 then the contents become targets for the gants but not before.
Yeah I just run 2 squads and run them up the field in front of everything else in my list. What you describe should probably be taken into account if you are planning on trygon tunneling them or whatever
How do you protect your high-wounds-HQ like OOE and Swarmlord? I really tries to hide them but they always get blasted T1 or T2 without doing anything. Swarmlords ability whith Hive Commander is amazing but for 300pts... no for me. OOE is cheap but I having trouble getting him into combat, any tips?
Decided to run a Tyranid Prime in a 1500pt game vs salamanders today, actually surprised me with how much he did. Had him fully kitted with adrenal glands, toxin sacs, flesh hooks, boneswords and deathspitter. He did well, spending the latter half of the game in combat with a squad of primaris, keeping them tied up until he was reinforced with genestealers. He even dealt the finishing blow on the enemy warlord.
Not an amazing model, not worth taking over any of the similar costed HQs as of now, but I was plesently suprised. Anyone else got good experiences with this guy?
How do you protect your high-wounds-HQ like OOE and Swarmlord? I really tries to hide them but they always get blasted T1 or T2 without doing anything. Swarmlords ability whith Hive Commander is amazing but for 300pts... no for me. OOE is cheap but I having trouble getting him into combat, any tips?
You have a couple options.
For the Swarmlord you can use Tyrant Guard to gain a bunch of ablative wounds. Thats almost a must.
Malanthropes as mentioned will provide the -1 to hit bubble for everything around it. Very good for protecting key elements.
Your best way however is threat overload.
Your opponent has to consider how many shots they have to commit to killing something like OOE and the SL. And how big a threat that single model is vs whatever else is on the field. If SL is in the front lines as the most immediate threat then he is going to get shot first. Throw 2 blobs of genestealers in his face. Now what is he going to shoot first? Pop up 2 trygons on his flanks.
Tyranid Tactics are all about threat overload. You need to place so many dangers so close to his face that he doesn't know what to shoot first. At that point it doesn't matter which of your threats dies, once we are in they crumple.
Also a note on threat overload, there are two things you need to think about.
Against a mobile or long ranged army you want your threats to be hitting relativly simuntaniusly. If unit A is a threat turn 1, B turn 2, C turn 3 etc. your opponent will focus fire on unit A, B and then C. If A, B and C are a threat on the same turn that does not stop it.
You also want to plan for the end game. When the last turn of the game is over, how does the board look when you winn? Just rushing in might not be the smartest move if it leaves you wonerable later on.
It seems to me, that a lot of people harp genestealers as the best thing in our codex. But experience for me has shown them to be less than that. Sure, a solid charge will kill something, but 5++ isn't enough to save them from small arms fire on turn 2. It's way too easy to turn your 240 pts of genestealers into a pile of purple goo.
I haven't used genestealers in the past 3 ITC tournaments I participated in and finished 3rd, 1st and 1st in those tournaments. (24, 16 and 12 people). Other players that brought genestealers were crushed by swarm armies. Poxwalkers are especially effective at eating genestealers and adding them to their own number.
Is anyone else finding the same thing? Is anyone having good success with genestealers?
Zimko wrote: It seems to me, that a lot of people harp genestealers as the best thing in our codex. But experience for me has shown them to be less than that. Sure, a solid charge will kill something, but 5++ isn't enough to save them from small arms fire on turn 2. It's way too easy to turn your 240 pts of genestealers into a pile of purple goo.
I haven't used genestealers in the past 3 ITC tournaments I participated in and finished 3rd, 1st and 1st in those tournaments. (24, 16 and 12 people). Other players that brought genestealers were crushed by swarm armies. Poxwalkers are especially effective at eating genestealers and adding them to their own number.
Is anyone else finding the same thing? Is anyone having good success with genestealers?
I also don't use Genestealers (personal preference). It's not that I think they are bad at all. I think they 100% do what people say they do when you get them into a fight (which isn't hard). But good doesn't mean invulnerable and there are other options to consider with other benefits.
I think nids are going to do best with a very Synergetic TAC list that focuses on quick threat overload. We need a bit of everything with heavy hitters (hive guard, exocrines, carnifex, trygons), quick melee threats (hormagaunts, genestealers), and support (Warriors, shrikes, biovores, malanthropes), while mixing in psychic buffers (tervigons if you go swarm heavy, hive tyrants, zoanthropes).
You need to build your list so each component is maximizing it's effectiveness and synergy with each other element so that the enemy has no good obvious targets without letting something else through and so that our relatively easy to kill units can die without the list falling apart.
Redundancy and distract. It's all about redundancy and distraction.
NackaNid wrote: How do you protect your high-wounds-HQ like OOE and Swarmlord? I really tries to hide them but they always get blasted T1 or T2 without doing anything. Swarmlords ability whith Hive Commander is amazing but for 300pts... no for me. OOE is cheap but I having trouble getting him into combat, any tips?
By having them on the shelf, sadly. Swarmlord is a 300pts one-trick-pony imo. He comes down with a pod, send in Genestealers for a charge, and is killed/crippled the following turn.
OOE is just pants, too slow and too easy to kill at 10 wounds. He could work as a defensive unit if you can hide him from LOS and if you can force your enemy to come to you. At 9 wounds he would be great, but Tyranids can't have nice things.
Malanthrope is a Forgeworld unit, which isn't ok everywhere. You should check with your local dudes/TO. Plus they are gunline protection, not really fit for a fast, aggressive build.
C4790M wrote: Decided to run a Tyranid Prime in a 1500pt game vs salamanders today, actually surprised me with how much he did. Had him fully kitted with adrenal glands, toxin sacs, flesh hooks, boneswords and deathspitter. He did well, spending the latter half of the game in combat with a squad of primaris, keeping them tied up until he was reinforced with genestealers. He even dealt the finishing blow on the enemy warlord.
Not an amazing model, not worth taking over any of the similar costed HQs as of now, but I was plesently suprised. Anyone else got good experiences with this guy?
No, he's soo bad. The only reason I take him, is that Forgeworld (Malanthropes) aren't allowed in the local major tournament, so at 100pts he's the cheapest synapse babysitter we have that can't be targeted. GW could've done so much with this guy. He could've been given wings (buffing Shrikes and serving as forward synapse for aggressive builds). He lost 10pts regeneration, lost good cc weapons (Bonesword nerf) and provides no rerolls. Has no invo save.
At the moment, there's no reason to field him if Forgeworld is ok in your region.
Zimko wrote: It seems to me, that a lot of people harp genestealers as the best thing in our codex. But experience for me has shown them to be less than that. Sure, a solid charge will kill something, but 5++ isn't enough to save them from small arms fire on turn 2. It's way too easy to turn your 240 pts of genestealers into a pile of purple goo.
I haven't used genestealers in the past 3 ITC tournaments I participated in and finished 3rd, 1st and 1st in those tournaments. (24, 16 and 12 people). Other players that brought genestealers were crushed by swarm armies. Poxwalkers are especially effective at eating genestealers and adding them to their own number.
Is anyone else finding the same thing? Is anyone having good success with genestealers?
Yeah Genestealers really need Catalyst to remain a threat after 1 round of enemy shooting. They are glasscannons for sure, and you need multiple simultaneous threats to have success, but that's hardly news. 20 Hive Commandered Genestealers can win a game, much like 20 Berzerkers with Forward Operatives. But against good players with screens, they usually don't work.
You've played 3 ITC tournaments already in 8th ed? What Tyranid list did you use?
Yeah Genestealers really need Catalyst to remain a threat after 1 round of enemy shooting. They are glasscannons for sure, and you need multiple simultaneous threats to have success, but that's hardly news. 20 Hive Commandered Genestealers can win a game, much like 20 Berzerkers with Forward Operatives. But against good players with screens, they usually don't work.
You've played 3 ITC tournaments already in 8th ed? What Tyranid list did you use?
This is my current 2k list. It's actually undeafeted but I placed 3rd due to points and only 3 rounds for that tournament.
Brigade:
HQ:
Swarmlord
Old One Eye
Malonthrope
Elite:
4 Zoanthropes (Nuerothrope included)
4 Zoanthropes (Neurothrope included)
Red Terror
Fast Attack:
3x Raveners with rending claws and deathspitters.
3x Raveners with rending claws and deathspitters.
3x Raveners with rending claws and deathspitters.
Troops:
20 Devgaunts
10 Termagaunts
10 Termagaunts
10 Termagaunts
3 Rippers
3 Rippers
Heavy Support:
Trygon Prime with glands
2x Biovores
2x Biovores
1x Biovores
1x Biovores
12 command points. 8 deep striking units. I usually get to see most of my opponents deployment before I placed my first unit. This helps a lot with keeping Swarmlord and Old One Eye alive for the first turn. On my first turn, I use onslaught and hive commander to launch old one eye across the board and he has yet to fail to reach combat. The Swarmlord I will hide as best I can until a target presents itself for him to use the same trick on. Last tournament I killed Gurlyman against two different opponents because of smite spam and a Swarmlord charge.
Our local tournament shop has 2 large LOS blockers on every board. Without those, this list wouldn't work.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and biovores have been awesome for creating barriers for enemy movement. The relic is one of my easiest matches because spore mines block their path and I deep strike a large force near the relic. The raveners throw themselves into melee while the devgaunts pick it up and run.
The Red Terror has been surprisingly effective. I picked it up to fill an elites slot, buff raveners, and to be another deep striker. But he has managed to swallow a Librarian, and Archon, a Big Mek, and a Pain Boy.
I like the look of that list, here's hoping we get some nice things to spend all those CP on soon!
How well do the zoans do? I find they just sit around doing nothing and I'd just rather take another broodlord as a psyker, or hive guard for the elite slot instead. Super smite is nice but its all they do.
I agree on the red terror though - swallow whole is great. I just kitbashed one and ran it in a 500pt skirmish against my roommates guardsmen - it ate both his commissar and commander!
The Zoanthropes have been excellent. With 4 models, it begs for my opponent to expend enough shooting to kill 1 in each unit, and doing so can waste potential shots against other units. And with 3++ saves, whatever shooting they do use may not work out.
And if my opponent decides not to shoot them, an average of 8 mortal wounds each turn and a cast of the horror or catalyst AND providing synapse to the deep strikers after the Trygon Prime dies will make them pay for ignoring them.
The Zoanthropes are actually the sole reason I was able to kill Girllyman twice. I killed everything around him, baited him to charge some of my stuff, then surrounded him with gaunts so he couldn't escape while Zoanthropes peppered him with mortal wounds.
Movement and placing is critical to use them. But they can be incredibly annoying for opponents. One game, I faced a Shadowsword? (Baneblade variant) and I had a unit of Zoanthropes use the horror on it every turn while charging random units just to force those units to fallback and not shoot. 2 remained at the end of the game because there were too many other threats and their 3++ saved them many times.
Zimko wrote:It seems to me, that a lot of people harp genestealers as the best thing in our codex. But experience for me has shown them to be less than that. Sure, a solid charge will kill something, but 5++ isn't enough to save them from small arms fire on turn 2. It's way too easy to turn your 240 pts of genestealers into a pile of purple goo.
I haven't used genestealers in the past 3 ITC tournaments I participated in and finished 3rd, 1st and 1st in those tournaments. (24, 16 and 12 people). Other players that brought genestealers were crushed by swarm armies. Poxwalkers are especially effective at eating genestealers and adding them to their own number.
Is anyone else finding the same thing? Is anyone having good success with genestealers?
They are most definitely overrated in comparison to our other troops who are also good, but Stealers are great as well. They take a dedicated investment of points you need enough to get through, and the rest of your army should pretty much support that to be honest. Much more restrictive unit than the others but potentially the strongest, all are good though
Brigade:
HQ:
Swarmlord
Old One Eye
Malonthrope
Elite:
4 Zoanthropes (Nuerothrope included)
4 Zoanthropes (Neurothrope included)
Red Terror
Fast Attack:
3x Raveners with rending claws and deathspitters.
3x Raveners with rending claws and deathspitters.
3x Raveners with rending claws and deathspitters.
Troops:
20 Devgaunts
10 Termagaunts
10 Termagaunts
10 Termagaunts
3 Rippers
3 Rippers
Heavy Support:
Trygon Prime with glands
2x Biovores
2x Biovores
1x Biovores
1x Biovores
Nice to see something different for a change. It's 2003pts tho.
Zimko wrote:The Zoanthropes have been excellent. With 4 models, it begs for my opponent to expend enough shooting to kill 1 in each unit, and doing so can waste potential shots against other units. And with 3++ saves, whatever shooting they do use may not work out.
And if my opponent decides not to shoot them, an average of 8 mortal wounds each turn and a cast of the horror or catalyst AND providing synapse to the deep strikers after the Trygon Prime dies will make them pay for ignoring them.
The Zoanthropes are actually the sole reason I was able to kill Girllyman twice. I killed everything around him, baited him to charge some of my stuff, then surrounded him with gaunts so he couldn't escape while Zoanthropes peppered him with mortal wounds.
Movement and placing is critical to use them. But they can be incredibly annoying for opponents. One game, I faced a Shadowsword? (Baneblade variant) and I had a unit of Zoanthropes use the horror on it every turn while charging random units just to force those units to fallback and not shoot. 2 remained at the end of the game because there were too many other threats and their 3++ saved them many times.
I cannot get behind the idea that zoantropes could be considered 'good' or even 'decent'. If an enemy cannot comfortably shoot down 2 single zoantropes from each unit with split fire then it's not worth mentioning, and from that point on they're to expensive for regular 'smite'.
SHUPPET wrote:
Zimko wrote:It seems to me, that a lot of people harp genestealers as the best thing in our codex. But experience for me has shown them to be less than that. Sure, a solid charge will kill something, but 5++ isn't enough to save them from small arms fire on turn 2. It's way too easy to turn your 240 pts of genestealers into a pile of purple goo.
I haven't used genestealers in the past 3 ITC tournaments I participated in and finished 3rd, 1st and 1st in those tournaments. (24, 16 and 12 people). Other players that brought genestealers were crushed by swarm armies. Poxwalkers are especially effective at eating genestealers and adding them to their own number.
Is anyone else finding the same thing? Is anyone having good success with genestealers?
They are most definitely overrated in comparison to our other troops who are also good, but Stealers are great as well. They take a dedicated investment of points you need enough to get through, and the rest of your army should pretty much support that to be honest. Much more restrictive unit than the others but potentially the strongest, all are good though
You either want to trap stuff or kill stuff in close combat. Genestealers are great for taking on almost anything but I don't like them simply walking forward, even with their speed. One unit of 20 coming out of a trygon hole or tyrannocyte with immediately 'catalyst' is my favourite setup. Use the CP for the psychic power and/or reroll charge to get the best out of them.
I thought the same about Zoanthropes until I tried them. At first I only had 1 unit. Then after several successful games with them, I added another unit.
The issue people run into is that they MUST kill Old One Eye first. They MUST kill the Swarmlord first. They MUST kill the Trygon Prime first. And they MUST kill 2 Zoanthropes first. So they will try to split fire to accomplish this, and with either bad luck for them, or good 3++ saves for me, they fail to do all they wanted. Then you capitalize.
Also, it's pretty easy to string 4 Zoanthropes to the Malonthrope bubble and still be in range to smite and provide synapse to other units. That helps their survival a bit.
Brigade:
HQ:
Swarmlord
Old One Eye
Malonthrope
Elite:
4 Zoanthropes (Nuerothrope included)
4 Zoanthropes (Neurothrope included)
Red Terror
Fast Attack:
3x Raveners with rending claws and deathspitters.
3x Raveners with rending claws and deathspitters.
3x Raveners with rending claws and deathspitters.
Troops:
20 Devgaunts
10 Termagaunts
10 Termagaunts
10 Termagaunts
3 Rippers
3 Rippers
Heavy Support:
Trygon Prime with glands
2x Biovores
2x Biovores
1x Biovores
1x Biovores
Nice to see something different for a change. It's 2003pts tho.
You're correct. I did that from memory. One raveners should have a devourer. Alternatively, you can give the Trygon the cheaper tail if you don't feel like tracking which raveners has a devourer.
Oh, didn't think about the footprint of the unit and the ease of stringing them to the thrope. I'm gonna test this, they can cover a really large distance if you minimise unit cohesion
Yeah, my army on the board sometimes looks like a little cthulu with 6 biovores and a Malonthrope at the center and arms of Termagaunts and Zoanthropes reaching put to objectives and such. Lol
Eldarain wrote: Does the index being so much better than 7th give us hope our book might have a champion or two in the studio?
What are the chances the book is anywhere near the Guard juggernaut that just came out?
I dont want any broken units. But our index internal balance is near perfect. If we get wl traits, stratgems, hive fleet rules, and relics that offer the same flexibility in viable builds that the guard does i think nids might be the most balanced, internally and externally, codex we have seen in like... 5 years.
Eldarain wrote: Does the index being so much better than 7th give us hope our book might have a champion or two in the studio?
What are the chances the book is anywhere near the Guard juggernaut that just came out?
Please no, i hope that apart for some slight point changes here and there we don't get any buffs.
The only thing i want to see radically changed are spore mines.
I dont want any broken units. But our index internal balance is near perfect. If we get wl traits, stratgems, hive fleet rules, and relics that offer the same flexibility in viable builds that the guard does i think nids might be the most balanced, internally and externally, codex we have seen in like... 5 years.
i too do not want any broken units but i feel compelled to say i personally hope they make the maleceptor, haruspex, tyrannofex and toxicrene a tad bit better. i don't think our codex(edit:index) internal balance is 'near perfect' by any stretch of the imagination
They're sort of thrown in as filler in a bunch of box sets. IIRC, one comes on each Termagant weapon arms sprue. I think I recall them being on other sprues, but for whatever reason, I can't immediately think which ones.
Yeah, I expect rending claws to be gone. Sky Slashers are still produced... so I think they might be there, but I don't understand why. The unit doesn't really serve much of a purpose and nobody is buying them. They have to be one of the worst selling units GW has ever produced. Red Terror MIGHT be gone.
Shrikes are probably gone... But I am REALLY hoping for a shrike sprue upgrade kit or added to warrior packaging. Either way I will keep using mine from the index.
I am hoping they expand some of our wargear options. I would love it if, for a cost, we could ad +1 Sv to Hive Tyrants, Carnifex, and Warriors. Adrenal Glands and Venom Sacs are all nice and such but it's 2 upgrades that support the same thing. Melee. I would like some more options to help our units defensively or for shooting.
Niiai wrote:Well the biovore could be targeted. I hope they don't nerf anything.
Doubt they will touch Biovore much if they've been paying attention. It's not even a top 5 unit in it's own dex.
It it happens then it will be by indirect nerf, since spore mines will probably change. Right now no one uses spore mines, and why should they when those things cost 10 points each and will fail to do anything in 90% of the games. Even if for some reason they get to the target then you just traded a mortal wound for 10 points, which in intself is not that good. Either they drop the cost to 3 points or completely change how they work.
Niiai wrote:Well the biovore could be targeted. I hope they don't nerf anything.
Doubt they will touch Biovore much if they've been paying attention. It's not even a top 5 unit in it's own dex.
It it happens then it will be by indirect nerf, since spore mines will probably change. Right now no one uses spore mines, and why should they when those things cost 10 points each and will fail to do anything in 90% of the games. Even if for some reason they get to the target then you just traded a mortal wound for 10 points, which in intself is not that good. Either they drop the cost to 3 points or completely change how they work.
I am not a fan of being able to buy mines as units to begin with. Units we have should create mines. Maybe purchase units of them as upgrades. But we shouldn't be filling a FoC slot with mines. It's only ever used as a way to pad a list for some other advantage with the cheapest units possible.
But if Biovores, Harpys and Sporecysts could purchase them as wargear to be deployed separately... win.
How much variance of appearance will be required to run different hive fleets simoltaniously? I've seen plenty of lists that have multiple detachments using different "chapter tactics".
While not at all fluffy I'm sure there will be blatant advantages to having a competitive army using multiple "chapter tactics". Genestealers/ trygons one flavor, hive guard/ exocrines another. If your already using a non codex paint scheme do you think just painting the trim on the bases different colors would be good enough or do they really need to "differ in appearance".
I hope that nids don't work like that. You should be able to have only ONE "chapter tactic" in the whole army. Tyranid fleets have NEVER joined together as far as i know.
Spore mines need a rework, and hopefully they won't take down the biovore with them. Half cost would work, also a stratagem that you use at the start of the battle where you get to simulate the preliminary spore bombardment mentioned often in the fluff would be great
"Rain of Living Mines - 3CP"
Activate at the start of the battle, before the first turn. Roll a d6 for every enemy unit. On a 6+? That unit takes a mortal wound. On 3-5, set up a spore mine greater than 3" away from any enemy models but less than 6" away from the target unit. That spore mine cannot move or charge this turn. On a 1-2, nothing happens
This is my current 2k list. It's actually undeafeted but I placed 3rd due to points and only 3 rounds for that tournament.
Brigade:
HQ:
Swarmlord
Old One Eye
Malonthrope
Elite:
4 Zoanthropes (Nuerothrope included)
4 Zoanthropes (Neurothrope included)
Red Terror
Fast Attack:
3x Raveners with rending claws and deathspitters.
3x Raveners with rending claws and deathspitters.
3x Raveners with rending claws and deathspitters.
Troops:
20 Devgaunts
10 Termagaunts
10 Termagaunts
10 Termagaunts
3 Rippers
3 Rippers
Heavy Support:
Trygon Prime with glands
2x Biovores
2x Biovores
1x Biovores
1x Biovores
12 command points. 8 deep striking units. I usually get to see most of my opponents deployment before I placed my first unit. This helps a lot with keeping Swarmlord and Old One Eye alive for the first turn. On my first turn, I use onslaught and hive commander to launch old one eye across the board and he has yet to fail to reach combat. The Swarmlord I will hide as best I can until a target presents itself for him to use the same trick on. Last tournament I killed Gurlyman against two different opponents because of smite spam and a Swarmlord charge.
Our local tournament shop has 2 large LOS blockers on every board. Without those, this list wouldn't work.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and biovores have been awesome for creating barriers for enemy movement. The relic is one of my easiest matches because spore mines block their path and I deep strike a large force near the relic. The raveners throw themselves into melee while the devgaunts pick it up and run.
The Red Terror has been surprisingly effective. I picked it up to fill an elites slot, buff raveners, and to be another deep striker. But he has managed to swallow a Librarian, and Archon, a Big Mek, and a Pain Boy.
I took your list for a spin against Space Wolves tonight, faced
Bjorn the Fellhanded
Iron priest on TWC 6x Axe-dreads with Blizzard Shields
2x Culexus Assassins
Knight Crusader
I gave up after 3 turns, only had left 3 Rippers and 10 Termagants in hiding plus the Biovores about to be charged. 0-20. Had I had the first turn I would likely gotten a draw or a minor win. It's a fun list, I just ran into a hard counter.
Cauthon wrote:How much variance of appearance will be required to run different hive fleets simoltaniously? I've seen plenty of lists that have multiple detachments using different "chapter tactics".
While not at all fluffy I'm sure there will be blatant advantages to having a competitive army using multiple "chapter tactics". Genestealers/ trygons one flavor, hive guard/ exocrines another. If your already using a non codex paint scheme do you think just painting the trim on the bases different colors would be good enough or do they really need to "differ in appearance".
As far as I know no tournament has required paint match the "chapter tactics" used yet, but that could admittedly change as they grow more prevalent. If I had to make a distinction, I'd probably take a page from Dawn of War II or the Annihilation Swarm from the Deathstorm box and paint small markings on the carapace. Purple could be used for Leviathan, Red for Kraken, Blue/Black for Behemoth, etc.
Spoletta wrote:I hope that nids don't work like that. You should be able to have only ONE "chapter tactic" in the whole army. Tyranid fleets have NEVER joined together as far as i know.
The Warzone: Valdore book had a tendril of Kraken and Leviathan working together.
I took your list for a spin against Space Wolves tonight, faced
Bjorn the Fellhanded
Iron priest on TWC 6x Axe-dreads with Blizzard Shields
2x Culexus Assassins
Knight Crusader
I gave up after 3 turns, only had left 3 Rippers and 10 Termagants in hiding plus the Biovores about to be charged. 0-20. Had I had the first turn I would likely gotten a draw or a minor win. It's a fun list, I just ran into a hard counter.
That does sound pretty tough. I appreciate you trying it out. How much did he kill on turn 1? Did you have decent LOS blocking terrain? What mission were you Playing? What happened to your malanthrope? Will you try the list again? Sorry for all the questions.
With the codex coming out soon, I'm not sure how much will change. I'm hoping for at least some useful strategems to take advantage of with 12 CP.
Hi, folks, I'm thinking about digging out my old Behemoth collection; interested in building a Flyrant as a project and wondering what loadouts work well for it?
Well yeah, but I’m interested to know what builds are working well. I notice that Tyrant Guard can catch bullets for multiple Tyrants and even ones in the air, that’s interesting.
Also: how are Sporocysts doing? I have a load of spare T-cyte guns that could bring my 4ed dinosaur egg Mycetic Spores back into service as Barbed Strangler spammers...
lindsay40k wrote: Well yeah, but I’m interested to know what builds are working well. I notice that Tyrant Guard can catch bullets for multiple Tyrants and even ones in the air, that’s interesting.
The main issue is that the most popular build for Tyrant's right now (Monstrous Rending Claws + other) might not be legal once the codex is dropped.
Also: how are Sporocysts doing? I have a load of spare T-cyte guns that could bring my 4ed dinosaur egg Mycetic Spores back into service as Barbed Strangler spammers...
It is a lot better than it used to be. I haven't seen them used much (presumably due to how static it is) but I have had a couple games with mine where it did ok. They mostly exist to drop on objectives and hope to keep the enemy troops busy for a few turns while other units focus on killing things.
lindsay40k wrote: Well yeah, but I’m interested to know what builds are working well. I notice that Tyrant Guard can catch bullets for multiple Tyrants and even ones in the air, that’s interesting.
The main issue is that the most popular build for Tyrant's right now (Monstrous Rending Claws + other) might not be legal once the codex is dropped.
This, and... point changes/fleet buffs also might be a big deal and a game changer. I would go armless for the next 3-4 weeks and just wait.
lindsay40k wrote: Well yeah, but I’m interested to know what builds are working well. I notice that Tyrant Guard can catch bullets for multiple Tyrants and even ones in the air, that’s interesting.
The main issue is that the most popular build for Tyrant's right now (Monstrous Rending Claws + other) might not be legal once the codex is dropped.
Also: how are Sporocysts doing? I have a load of spare T-cyte guns that could bring my 4ed dinosaur egg Mycetic Spores back into service as Barbed Strangler spammers...
It is a lot better than it used to be. I haven't seen them used much (presumably due to how static it is) but I have had a couple games with mine where it did ok. They mostly exist to drop on objectives and hope to keep the enemy troops busy for a few turns while other units focus on killing things.
The rending claws should still be legal if not in the codex, you. Just have to use the index variant don't you?
lindsay40k wrote: Well yeah, but I’m interested to know what builds are working well. I notice that Tyrant Guard can catch bullets for multiple Tyrants and even ones in the air, that’s interesting.
The main issue is that the most popular build for Tyrant's right now (Monstrous Rending Claws + other) might not be legal once the codex is dropped.
Also: how are Sporocysts doing? I have a load of spare T-cyte guns that could bring my 4ed dinosaur egg Mycetic Spores back into service as Barbed Strangler spammers...
It is a lot better than it used to be. I haven't seen them used much (presumably due to how static it is) but I have had a couple games with mine where it did ok. They mostly exist to drop on objectives and hope to keep the enemy troops busy for a few turns while other units focus on killing things.
The rending claws should still be legal if not in the codex, you. Just have to use the index variant don't you?
No. You are expected to use the most up to date datasheet. You can ask your opponent if you can use the index version but that is one person allowing you to use an old entry entirely out of their generosity. I wouldn't say yes to that. I wouldn't expect anyone else to.
You must use the most up to date datasheet for that equipment and model. If in the codex there isn't an Hyve Tyrant with MRC then the index is the most up to date, same thing that right now happens with rifle dreads.
Point is that we can safely expect a cost increase on MRC, probably by 25 points or so. That or the other options become better. It would be unwise of GW to keep the best version of hyve tyrant unavailable to new players.
Spoletta wrote: You must use the most up to date datasheet for that equipment and model. If in the codex there isn't an Hyve Tyrant with MRC then the index is the most up to date, same thing that right now happens with rifle dreads.
Point is that we can safely expect a cost increase on MRC, probably by 25 points or so. That or the other options become better. It would be unwise of GW to keep the best version of hyve tyrant unavailable to new players.
This is NOT the way it works. What options are on the Datasheet are not themselves a datasheet.
Yes, many units’ rules in their codexes will alter from those in the indexes. Sometimes this is to better represent the miniatures and the background, sometimes to balance the game, and sometimes to better fit with the army’s new special rules in the codex itself. In all cases, these will then supersede the rules for that datasheet in the index book.
If the codex datasheet "Hive Tyrant" is at all different from the index datasheet "Hive Tyrant" then everything on that datasheet, including it's options, supersedes the index.
You can only legally use the Index datasheets if it is the most up to date datasheet, I.E. there is no new datasheet in the codex. You don't get to just pick and choose which datasheet you want to use because you like that ones options better.
I can't find the original article where this was explained, but if you are forced to only the option present in the codex, then why rifle dreads are still a standard thing? They are not in the codex.
Spoletta wrote: I can't find the original article where this was explained, but if you are forced to only the option present in the codex, then why rifle dreads are still a standard thing? They are not in the codex.
There are a few options that are missing in the codex that appear in the index: why is that? Does that mean I can’t use these models in my army anymore?
While the indexes are designed to cover a long history of miniatures, the codexes are designed to give you rules for the current Warhammer 40,000 range. There are a few options in the indexes for some Characters and vehicles that are no longer represented in the Citadel range – certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box, or some characters on bikes, for example. Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons (currently, also in the index). They still gain all the army wide-bonuses for things like Chapter Tactics and can use Space Marines Stratagems and the like, so such venerable heroes still fit right in with the rest of your army.
Are the rules changing?
Yes, many units’ rules in their codexes will alter from those in the indexes. Sometimes this is to better represent the miniatures and the background, sometimes to balance the game, and sometimes to better fit with the army’s new special rules in the codex itself. In all cases, these will then supersede the rules for that datasheet in the index book.
Can I combine units from the index and a codex into one army?
The datasheets in the new codexes overwrite the same datasheets in the index books. You can certainly use units with updated datasheets alongside units from the index that have yet to be updated. Once a unit has been covered in the codex though, we assume you’re using the latest version.
Can I choose to use the rules and/or points for units from my index instead of the new ones in the codex once released?
In your own games, if you and your opponent agree, you can, of course, play with whatever rules you like.
In all future publications and official events though, it will be assumed that you’re using the most recent rules and Datasheets. It will also be assumed that you’re using the most up to date points for matched play, in this case, those included in the codex.
GW has always said you can play however you want. Open and Narrative allow you to do anything with no restrictions besides consent from your opponent. But Matched requires you to use the most up to date datasheets. You will notice of course that characters in different kinds of armor or on bikes have their own datasheets in the index. A librarian on a bike is not in the codex but is a separate datasheet from a librarian. Thus, you can use the index entry for that unit in matched.
Basically, rifle dreads shouldn't be a thing unless it's a separate datasheet from the normal dread. People using it are quoting the one part of the article out of context while ignoring the rest of the faq that clarifies.
I'm not aware of GW saying anything that supports the claim that index points can only be used for Open and Narrative. Obviously tournaments can do whatever they want, and some type of standard may develop. But until then, refusing to play someone who is following GW's guidelines is kind of harsh.
xmbk wrote: I'm not aware of GW saying anything that supports the claim that index points can only be used for Open and Narrative. Obviously tournaments can do whatever they want, and some type of standard may develop. But until then, refusing to play someone who is following GW's guidelines is kind of harsh.
Look at the FAQ questions I quoted right above you. 3 questions say the codex replaces the index for all rules where an update occurs. The last one specifically states, and I quote again,
In your own games, if you and your opponent agree, you can, of course, play with whatever rules you like.
In all future publications and official events though, it will be assumed that you’re using the most recent rules and Datasheets. It will also be assumed that you’re using the most up to date points for matched play, in this case, those included in the codex.
and
The datasheets in the new codexes overwrite the same datasheets in the index books. You can certainly use units with updated datasheets alongside units from the index that have yet to be updated. Once a unit has been covered in the codex though, we assume you’re using the latest version.
Those are very clear statements about what is expected and allowed officially. Again, personally, you and your opponent are free to make up any rules you want. You can decided tac marines cost 1ppm and every model can bring a lascanon, and as long as you and your opponent agree GW tells you guys to have fun. But the rules provided require the most up to date datasheets. Which means it only allows the points and options of the most up to date datasheets and publications.
There are a few options in the indexes for some Characters and vehicles that are no longer represented in the Citadel range – certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box, or some characters on bikes, for example.
Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons.
Take as many Hive Tyrants with Monstrous Rending Claws as you like. If HTs get a points cut, bully for you, if MRCs get a points hike, pay it. When they carry your Index-Codex army to the finals of the official GT in Warhammer World, use them to throw your opponent’s Honour Guard with Relic Blades right back into Index Imperium I.
There are a few options in the indexes for some Characters and vehicles that are no longer represented in the Citadel range – certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box, or some characters on bikes, for example.
Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons.
Take as many Hive Tyrants with Monstrous Rending Claws as you like. If HTs get a points cut, bully for you, if MRCs get a points hike, pay it. When they carry your Index-Codex army to the finals of the official GT in Warhammer World, use them to throw your opponent’s Honour Guard with Relic Blades right back into Index Imperium I.
This is referring to the "old" kits that did have those options, if you bring a new plastic HT kit i'm most likely sure GW at Warhammer world wont allow it (if the new codex doesnt have that option).
I have 2 of these old Metal HT, i honestly use them for Swarmlords now b.c i LOVE the new plastic one for my Flyrants
There are a few options in the indexes for some Characters and vehicles that are no longer represented in the Citadel range – certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box, or some characters on bikes, for example.
Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons.
Take as many Hive Tyrants with Monstrous Rending Claws as you like. If HTs get a points cut, bully for you, if MRCs get a points hike, pay it. When they carry your Index-Codex army to the finals of the official GT in Warhammer World, use them to throw your opponent’s Honour Guard with Relic Blades right back into Index Imperium I.
This is referring to the "old" kits that did have those options, if you bring a new plastic HT kit i'm most likely sure GW at Warhammer world wont allow it (if the new codex doesnt have that option).
I have 2 of these old Metal HT, i honestly use them for Swarmlords now b.c i LOVE the new plastic one for my Flyrants
If anyone disallows a plastic Hive Tyrant with Monstrous Rending Claws for having a loadout that the model didn’t come with, then they’d have to disallow any Apothecary on Bike that isn’t a Dark Angel or the old lead one from Rogue Trader.
There are a few options in the indexes for some Characters and vehicles that are no longer represented in the Citadel range – certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box, or some characters on bikes, for example.
Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons.
Take as many Hive Tyrants with Monstrous Rending Claws as you like. If HTs get a points cut, bully for you, if MRCs get a points hike, pay it. When they carry your Index-Codex army to the finals of the official GT in Warhammer World, use them to throw your opponent’s Honour Guard with Relic Blades right back into Index Imperium I.
This is referring to the "old" kits that did have those options, if you bring a new plastic HT kit i'm most likely sure GW at Warhammer world wont allow it (if the new codex doesnt have that option).
I have 2 of these old Metal HT, i honestly use them for Swarmlords now b.c i LOVE the new plastic one for my Flyrants
If anyone disallows a plastic Hive Tyrant with Monstrous Rending Claws for having a loadout that the model didn’t come with, then they’d have to disallow any Apothecary on Bike that isn’t a Dark Angel or the old lead one from Rogue Trader.
If there is a new datasheet for the HT and it doesnt have that option, then why would they let them? The Characters on bikes dont fall into the rule of being illegal to play, b.c they are separate Datasheets.
Khan for an example has 3 datasheets, one foot, on bike, on speeder, the on bike did not make it into the codex, so therefore it is the newest rules set for that, even tho a codex is out and making it a legal choice.
If someone had a Rogue Trader model with old options, again it is legal, but if they are using a NEW model that doesnt have that option, then it is not legal. HENCE why i said "If the new codex doesnt have that option and they are using a Plastic HT with that option, it isnt legal at warhammer world".
If you and your friends agree to playing it, then that is fine, but i'm talking about events, No one cares what you and your friends do at your house.
There are a few options in the indexes for some Characters and vehicles that are no longer represented in the Citadel range – certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box, or some characters on bikes, for example. Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons.
Take as many Hive Tyrants with Monstrous Rending Claws as you like. If HTs get a points cut, bully for you, if MRCs get a points hike, pay it. When they carry your Index-Codex army to the finals of the official GT in Warhammer World, use them to throw your opponent’s Honour Guard with Relic Blades right back into Index Imperium I.
See. These people quote this one line and ignore that this...
Are the rules changing?
Yes, many units’ rules in their codexes will alter from those in the indexes. Sometimes this is to better represent the miniatures and the background, sometimes to balance the game, and sometimes to better fit with the army’s new special rules in the codex itself. In all cases, these will then supersede the rules for that datasheet in the index book.
Can I combine units from the index and a codex into one army?
The datasheets in the new codexes overwrite the same datasheets in the index books. You can certainly use units with updated datasheets alongside units from the index that have yet to be updated. Once a unit has been covered in the codex though, we assume you’re using the latest version.
Can I choose to use the rules and/or points for units from my index instead of the new ones in the codex once released?
In your own games, if you and your opponent agree, you can, of course, play with whatever rules you like.
In all future publications and official events though, it will be assumed that you’re using the most recent rules and Datasheets. It will also be assumed that you’re using the most up to date points for matched play, in this case, those included in the codex.
...exists in the same document.
Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models.
Is the same as
In your own games, if you and your opponent agree, you can, of course, play with whatever rules you like.
But any game that is actually using the rules requires
In all cases, these will then supersede the rules for that datasheet in the index book.
The datasheets in the new codexes overwrite the same datasheets in the index books.
In all future publications and official events though, it will be assumed that you’re using the most recent rules and Datasheets.
If Hive Tyrants loose the option to use rending claws you will only be able to use them with your opponents permission.
I took your list for a spin against Space Wolves tonight, faced
Bjorn the Fellhanded
Iron priest on TWC 6x Axe-dreads with Blizzard Shields
2x Culexus Assassins
Knight Crusader
I gave up after 3 turns, only had left 3 Rippers and 10 Termagants in hiding plus the Biovores about to be charged. 0-20. Had I had the first turn I would likely gotten a draw or a minor win. It's a fun list, I just ran into a hard counter.
That does sound pretty tough. I appreciate you trying it out. How much did he kill on turn 1? Did you have decent LOS blocking terrain? What mission were you Playing? What happened to your malanthrope? Will you try the list again? Sorry for all the questions.
With the codex coming out soon, I'm not sure how much will change. I'm hoping for at least some useful strategems to take advantage of with 12 CP.
Turn 1 he killed 3 Zoanthropes from one unit and 1 Zoan from the second unit, with shooting from the Knight, Bjorn and assassins. Assassins shut Zoanthrope output down hard within 18" so they didn't really contributed at all in this game.
We had great terrain, lots of LOS blocking pieces but it's hard to keep every piece of a model outside LOS from big units with 12" move coming in from the flanks, and Culexus drops down anywhere outside 9".
We played a good mission from a tournament, Dawn of War deployment and a mix of Maelstrom, Kill points, Eternal War and bonus points from First Blood, Warlord and Linebreaker.
The Malanthrope died in combat with a Dreadnought turn 3, like most everything else. You know, Space Wolf dreadnoughts are better than Swarmlord in combat, for less than half the points. And they can be spammed. Venerable Dreadnought has 3+ armour, 3++ invo save, five S10 attacks, hitting on 2's, AP -3, 1D6 damage, 6+FNP, never deteriorates, still explodes on a '6', cost 145pts, I mean get the feth outa here GW!
Old One Eye bounced on a dread and was killed. Swarmlord stood 3 rounds with another dreadnough and the Iron Priest before crumbling. That same dreadnought also killed Red Terror, 3 Raveners and Malanthrope in the same multi-combat.
Yeah I will probably try the list again, if I can get another game in before the new rules start to drop.
Storm shield dreads are good but they only really shine against us because we lack good anti tank shooting outside of the exocrine.
What we can do against those kinds of models is tarpit them. How fast are they going to win back their points when fearless 4 point gants are tying them up? And if they fall back, they can’t charge.
Mortal wounds are also important in getting through invulnerable saves, which we currently have limited access to.
I’m hopeful that the codex will make some of these things a little easier for us. We’ll know one way or the other in less than a month!
Mortal wounds are also important in getting through invulnerable saves, which we currently have limited access to.
Eh, actually we have a lot of ways to generate mortal wounds relative to other armies (Smite, Harpy, Sporocyst, Biovores, Spore Mines, Mucolids, Venomthropes, Toxicrene, Malceptor, Mawloc, Haruspex acid blood + Tentaclids and Shock Cannons vs vehicles), biggest problem is most of them are low range and/or not entirely reliable.
Space Wolf dreads in general are annoying though. Besides aforementioned Venerable Dreadnaughts they also have Bjorn and Murderfang, both of which generally can't be targeted by shooting per character rules and have nasty melee capabilities.
luke1705 wrote: Storm shield dreads are good but they only really shine against us because we lack good anti tank shooting outside of the exocrine.
What we can do against those kinds of models is tarpit them. How fast are they going to win back their points when fearless 4 point gants are tying them up? And if they fall back, they can’t charge.
Mortal wounds are also important in getting through invulnerable saves, which we currently have limited access to.
I’m hopeful that the codex will make some of these things a little easier for us. We’ll know one way or the other in less than a month!
Tyranids currently has more ways to generate mortal wounds than any other faction. Granted, just a few are actually decent picks for an army list (Smite from Magus spam, Biovores and Mawlocs).
Tarpit is a viable tactic against that Spacewolf list, it's just hard to do with Zimkos list, and going second.
How are stone crusher carnifexes? I assume wrecking claws are the way to go and that OOE and a malanthrope are mandatory if I take them? What tail weapon should I run and is bio plasma worth it?
RogueApiary wrote: How are stone crusher carnifexes? I assume wrecking claws are the way to go and that OOE and a malanthrope are mandatory if I take them? What tail weapon should I run and is bio plasma worth it?
Stone crushers currently can end up costing LESS then a decent melee loadout on a normal carnifex while performing better. As to claw or mace that depends on whether you just want to trash vehicles and buildings or if your facing hordes.
xmbk wrote: I'm not aware of GW saying anything that supports the claim that index points can only be used for Open and Narrative. Obviously tournaments can do whatever they want, and some type of standard may develop. But until then, refusing to play someone who is following GW's guidelines is kind of harsh.
Look at the FAQ questions I quoted right above you. 3 questions say the codex replaces the index for all rules where an update occurs. The last one specifically states, and I quote again,
In your own games, if you and your opponent agree, you can, of course, play with whatever rules you like.
In all future publications and official events though, it will be assumed that you’re using the most recent rules and Datasheets. It will also be assumed that you’re using the most up to date points for matched play, in this case, those included in the codex.
and
The datasheets in the new codexes overwrite the same datasheets in the index books. You can certainly use units with updated datasheets alongside units from the index that have yet to be updated. Once a unit has been covered in the codex though, we assume you’re using the latest version.
Those are very clear statements about what is expected and allowed officially. Again, personally, you and your opponent are free to make up any rules you want. You can decided tac marines cost 1ppm and every model can bring a lascanon, and as long as you and your opponent agree GW tells you guys to have fun. But the rules provided require the most up to date datasheets. Which means it only allows the points and options of the most up to date datasheets and publications.
Yeah, the FAQ specifically mentions using weapon choices from the index on a unit from the codex. It couldn't be more clear. You can't selectively pick FAQ quotes and ignore the ones that directly contradict.
"There are a few options in the indexes for some Characters and vehicles that are no longer represented in the Citadel range – certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box, or some characters on bikes, for example.
Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons (currently, also in the index).
They still gain all the army wide-bonuses for things like Chapter Tactics and can use Space Marines Stratagems and the like, so such venerable heroes still fit right in with the rest of your army."
Niiai wrote: I have not played or looked at the new IG/AM codex. Did many of the problems we had with them get solved? What are the new problems?
Using them as allies is even better. Playing against them... even harder. We absolutely have to get to them in CC to have a chance because of their inability to fall back and shoot, but Guard units are more durable and shootier than before, which I didnt realize was possible. Big help is that we have the malanthrope, which is genuinely the only reason we have a chance.
Niiai wrote: I have not played or looked at the new IG/AM codex. Did many of the problems we had with them get solved? What are the new problems?
Using them as allies is even better. Playing against them... even harder. We absolutely have to get to them in CC to have a chance because of their inability to fall back and shoot, but Guard units are more durable and shootier than before, which I didnt realize was possible. Big help is that we have the malanthrope, which is genuinely the only reason we have a chance.
I was already working on a Tyranid/GSC/Astra M. combo for an upcoming tournament, before the codex was released. Boy oh boy I'am really happy I got some Asta M to join my tyranids because I cannot win with solo tyranids against a solid Astra Militarum army, no way!
- Make your whole army Catachan and every vehicle shoots with 1 reroll d6 for the amount of shots. My army got a manticore, 3x basilisk and 3 wyverns....wow!
- My broodlord used to be the warlord but not anymore. Company commander with relic and warlord trait get's a CP on a 5+ for every command point spend (your own and the enemies).
- Relic dagger gives my commissar the opportunity to deploy himself + 30 conscripts, 6 inch from any table edge (9 inch from the enemy) out of reserves.
Conscripts are only max 30 models and don't respond to orders on a 4+. who cares.... their still cheap and decent bubble wrap and the rest shoots harder then before!
Could not use forgeworld (malanthrope) and with spam restriction, I started to swap tyranid units with astra M units. Now I only bring a broodlord, 3x biovores and 3 mawlocs.
Biovores can drop mines for blocking and also forces enemy psychic units to 'smite' the closest unit/mine. After the manticore and basilisk shooting I can use the biovores to shoot single shots 'split fire' to make sure I finish of the badly wounded vehicles/MC's without overkilling them.
Also really like the broodlord. Don't understand why a lot of tyranid players leave him out.
xmbk wrote: I'm not aware of GW saying anything that supports the claim that index points can only be used for Open and Narrative. Obviously tournaments can do whatever they want, and some type of standard may develop. But until then, refusing to play someone who is following GW's guidelines is kind of harsh.
Look at the FAQ questions I quoted right above you. 3 questions say the codex replaces the index for all rules where an update occurs. The last one specifically states, and I quote again,
In your own games, if you and your opponent agree, you can, of course, play with whatever rules you like.
In all future publications and official events though, it will be assumed that you’re using the most recent rules and Datasheets. It will also be assumed that you’re using the most up to date points for matched play, in this case, those included in the codex.
and
The datasheets in the new codexes overwrite the same datasheets in the index books. You can certainly use units with updated datasheets alongside units from the index that have yet to be updated. Once a unit has been covered in the codex though, we assume you’re using the latest version.
Those are very clear statements about what is expected and allowed officially. Again, personally, you and your opponent are free to make up any rules you want. You can decided tac marines cost 1ppm and every model can bring a lascanon, and as long as you and your opponent agree GW tells you guys to have fun. But the rules provided require the most up to date datasheets. Which means it only allows the points and options of the most up to date datasheets and publications.
Yeah, the FAQ specifically mentions using weapon choices from the index on a unit from the codex. It couldn't be more clear. You can't selectively pick FAQ quotes and ignore the ones that directly contradict.
"There are a few options in the indexes for some Characters and vehicles that are no longer represented in the Citadel range – certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box, or some characters on bikes, for example.
Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons (currently, also in the index).
They still gain all the army wide-bonuses for things like Chapter Tactics and can use Space Marines Stratagems and the like, so such venerable heroes still fit right in with the rest of your army."
That's pretty specific.
Please carry that discussion to ymdc where a thread is 3 pages deep discussing it. Trying to keep a rules debate where it belongs.
So with the new AM codex (and an impending Tyranid codex) I’m thinking Tyranids might finally have their day in the competitive scene.
The biggest issue with mass turn 1 charges (which Tyranids always have done well) is that we previously had no way of clearing out the chaff and would be trading Genestealers for conscripts (not a great trade obviously).
But now with AM backup, we should be able to clear out those chaff models with Wyverns, Basilisks and Leman Russes. Suddenly, Swarmlord pods in and ushers a unit of Genestealers into the heart of the opponent’s army. Because that can happen any time during the shooting phase!
Also I’m excited to see what Tyranids will have for chapter tactics. -1 to hit will be huge, as that seems to be pretty stock for most new armies, especially if it can stack with the Malanthrope! All of a sudden, Guilliman lists are only re-rolling 1’s! Suck it false emperor!
luke1705 wrote: All of a sudden, Guilliman lists are only re-rolling 1’s! Suck it false emperor!
It's even worse for them, actually. They still only reroll 1s and 2s... then they subtract 2 from their final results. So all those 3s and 4s they got are wasted.
Word! If we can play Alpha legion Nids....Drop a big Infiltrate Gunline and hose of the chaff then Tunnel T2 or T3...good times. Heck if I can build a Brigade, I'll try dropping two Tervigons, And Three Broods of 'gants(Maybe Infiltrtrate two, and Trygon in a Brood of Devil'gants). then Mawloc, and Lictor to Victory!
Looking at some interesting things you can do mixing AM with nids via GSC...
3x Primaris psykers via supreme command (120 pts)
1 is your warlord with the gain CP on a 5+ ability, and you can use "Take Cover" stratagem on your nids.
"Use this stratagem in your opponent's shooting phase when your opponent selects one of your units as a target. You can add 1 to saving throws you make for this unit until the end of the phase."
Only strat in AM that doesn't specify <Regiment> or ASTRA MILITARUM.
While I'm in the camp that invulns aren't technically saving throws (Lets leave that debate for YMDC), if you play somewhere that it is, that means you can have 4++ Genestealers for 1CP.
Outside of the obvious strong AM unit choices, just some stuff I noticed that we may get some mileage out of.
Index vs codex seems to have come to a head with this.
Publications in use: All current and in-print Warhammer 40,000 Index books and Codexes from Games Workshop and Forge World, unless their release falls on the weekend of the event. We expect you to use the most current datasheets for your models – e.g. those found in a Codex rather than an Index if a Codex is available for your army. This means that you may use Faction-appropriate Index datasheets that might not appear in your Codex (such as Chaplain on Bike)
Reinforcing the must use the most recent datasheet. If, when our codex shows up, rending claws are not an option for Hive Tyrants (which will likely be the case since they don't have the option in the box) they will not be a legal option for anything but your own open games with opponents agreement. I.E. not worth discussing in a tactics thread. We'll see what situation that is in in a couple weeks.
lindsay40k wrote: Take Cover being usable on like Barbed Hierodules is never surviving the FAQ
Probably not.
But in the meantime you can deploy a commissar with 30 Catachan conscripts (+1 strength) 6 inch from any table edge outside 9 inch of the enemy (relic dagger). Put psychic barrier on them with the primaris psyker (+1 save) and if anybody tries to shoot them you use the stratagem to push the armor save to 3+. power armor conscripts !!
Also I’m excited to see what Tyranids will have for chapter tactics. -1 to hit will be huge, as that seems to be pretty stock for most new armies, especially if it can stack with the Malanthrope! All of a sudden, Guilliman lists are only re-rolling 1’s! Suck it false emperor!
While it would be nice, I don't see Tyranids getting the -1 to hit at 12'' away trait since we already have access to a -1 to hit bubble in both HQ and Elite slots. As far as recycling traits goes, I expect to see the damage table mitigating one (Behemoth, maybe Leviathan), the melee damage boosting one from the Mechanicus book (another possibility for Behemoth), 6+ FNP equivalent (probably on Gorgon, as "Hyper adaptability"), and maybe the fall back from melee and shoot at -1 to hit (probably Kraken).
The only two I'm not sure about are Jormungandr and Hydra. The former has been getting a lot of attention in fluff lately (GSC codex had a cult dedicated to them and the new AM book mentions them devouring a Catachan regiment that had been sent to quell a GSC uprising) while the latter is hyped as being the next major Hive Fleet after Leviathan, so I expect both will get traits of some sort but I'm not sure what exactly. Jormungandr in the 5th edition book was noted for its excessive use of tunneling organisms so it is difficult to say what exactly its main theme is and Hydra is flat out new for the edition apart from a brief blurb on the Dark Eldar prematurely awakening it in prior books.
If we get the -1 to hit trait, it will probably have a restriction that it doesn't work with similar rules. Otherwise malanthropes become the most broken thing in the game.
To be fair, other armies have access to similar rules and got the -1. Alpha legion Obliterators near a changeling, for example. Also Alaitoc is rumored to get the -1 trait despite the faction having access to conceal and units with -1 like warp spiders or Shadow Spectres.
Oh I hope we get the -1 to hit one, if only to make a near immortal deathleaper - -2 from chameleonic skin, -1 from Mal and -1 from chapter tactic means its only being hit by stuff with a 2+bs. Add in the horror or mass hypnosis to make it literally unshootable without buffs to hit
The -1 at 12" rule would be a major boon to Nids simply because it makes foot slogging more possable. And Skitari have it with Stygia, and it stacks with their wacky walkers for -2....
pinecone77 wrote: The -1 at 12" rule would be a major boon to Nids simply because it makes foot slogging more possable. And Skitari have it with Stygia, and it stacks with their wacky walkers for -2....
That might even make Venomthropes worth taking. Especially if we get some kind of price drop on them. It's fine that they can be targetted if everyone is getting a -2 to hit.
Niiai wrote: Alaitoc got the -1 to hit at over 12" away.
I really hope tyranids get it. I also hope it is not arbitrarily based on how I painted my models the wrong way. :-/
You can almost guarantee it'll be based on hive fleet. Not that it really matters, most people don't know which fleets are which anyways.
First, there is no rule requiring your models to even be painted, let alone painted a certain way to get certain bonuses.
Second, nid hive fleets have changed coloration planet to planet if it was an advantage worth doing. Sometimes just adapting them to process different chemicals in the air have secondary effects on coloration.
Third, how many nid players actually follow a gw color scheme instead of just making up their own?
I think your part of a minority. If you google img search space marines you see all the standard chapters. If you google image search tyranids you see nothing but home brew variations.
Space Marines have colour chapters because GW has put a vast amount and years worth of marketing behind them, plus they've released niche models for each marine chapter to further help identify them even down to shoulderpads. And even after all that marketing if your Blood Angles are pure white with blue details - no one cares really. Oh that's the Arctic chapter of the Blood Angles who abandoned their classic red armour in favour of white whilst battling crafty Eldar on a far off snow world - and it worked so well that they kept the colouration - done!
No other army has had that much marketing and power put behind colour variations and Tyranids are so highly variable that they pretty much don't have a "colour" scheme that is unified. Every new codex has basically had a new colour for Tyranids.
If splinter fleets are a thing I seriously doubt that anyone would enforce correct colourations at all. The only time that you would need colour coordination would be if you're mixing hive fleets so that both players can tell which is in which fleet and ergo benefits from which abilities. And honestly you could achieve that with something really simple like a coloured dot on the base or a coloured ring around the lower part of a base or any number of other subtle identification markers (its often good to have things like gaunts with a subtle marker on the carapace so that you can identify different broods on the tabletop - 30 termagunts with are red dot - 30 with a blue dot and then if they get in a mash up you can easily tell which belongs to which).
The only way GW could really empower splinter fleets is if they start releasing unique models/details for each splinter fleet.
Personally I kind of hope that they do; its a great way to expand the Tyranid range with new models without having to bloat the core army. IF Leviathan can't take biovores, but instead get access to a new unique unit that does something that ties with a theme of them - eg lest say a long range sniper specialist etc.... - then that adds flavour and means that we get a new model without bloat.
Special characters are also something I wish they'd expand on - more unique Tyranids that are limited in number but still appear on the battlefield - more Red Terrors and such - and hopefully not just evolutions of kits we currently have (swarmlord is great but would be greater still if he had his own unique looking kit)
I'm on the other side of the barricade, i would prefer if special snowflakes nids were in there but not as unique entities with a backstory. There should be no "characters" except for the swarmlord. What i can understand are prototype broods that are deployed for testing.
Spoletta wrote: I'm on the other side of the barricade, i would prefer if special snowflakes nids were in there but not as unique entities with a backstory. There should be no "characters" except for the swarmlord. What i can understand are prototype broods that are deployed for testing.
Aye by characters I mean specialist/prototypes/unique evolutions etc...
Ergo a way to add models that are limited in availability like other factions have.
My thoughts are that Tryanids are in a really good position model variety wise at present for the tabletop. The monstrous creature block has gone from a jack-of-all Carnifex into a series of big specialist monsters; we've got air units; troops a plenty etc... Basically most slots that need filling in a Tyranid army are filled. There's always arguments over how good things are in their respective slots; but by and large Tyranids have got most things they need.
The only real gap I can see is in a titan slot from GW. A modest titan like the knights and stompas other factions have would suit Tyranids well. But beyond that the only way I can see adding new models is to start with specialists/uniques/characters so that they can add things without breaking the army balance or resulting in units that are just worse than others and thus invalidating some options.
Splinter fleets is the other approach; fleets that might not have access to some core models but instead replace them with something else etc....
Remember, Hive fleets don't really exist. Hive Fleet is a classification the IoM uses to to talk about the different clusters of hive ships floating about. They are all part of the same macro organism.
Unless the new codex drops some radically new fluff there is only 1 Hive Mind.
Fleets will get a Stratagem, Warlord and Faction Trait.
It’s unlikely that there’ll be Fleet specific characters, as Old One Eye and the Swarmlord both arrived in the Tyrannic War, and the latter has been universal and ubiquitous for too long to suddenly make him exclusive to a Hive Fleet of which there’s only the bare minimum scattered remnants necessary to satisfy Behemoth collectors who don’t want their colour scheme to be the Xenos equivalent of loyalist Luna Wolves.
It’d be like if they gave Guilliman another three editions of buffing IMPERIUM units as he leads militarily diverse crusades all across the galaxy, then suddenly made him affect only ULTRAMARINES - and only then if they don’t have Cassius or Chronus or Telion or him with the sword.
I think your part of a minority. If you google img search space marines you see all the standard chapters. If you google image search tyranids you see nothing but home brew variations.
I would like to point out my SW are purple with orange. :-)
Niiai wrote: Alaitoc got the -1 to hit at over 12" away.
I really hope tyranids get it. I also hope it is not arbitrarily based on how I painted my models the wrong way. :-/
You can almost guarantee it'll be based on hive fleet. Not that it really matters, most people don't know which fleets are which anyways.
First, there is no rule requiring your models to even be painted, let alone painted a certain way to get certain bonuses.
Second, nid hive fleets have changed coloration planet to planet if it was an advantage worth doing. Sometimes just adapting them to process different chemicals in the air have secondary effects on coloration.
Third, how many nid players actually follow a gw color scheme instead of just making up their own?
I never said anything about colors or paint so... chill?
I just said it'll be based on hive fleet, which is quite likely because every single book so far has been based on sub-factions.
Niiai wrote: Alaitoc got the -1 to hit at over 12" away.
I really hope tyranids get it. I also hope it is not arbitrarily based on how I painted my models the wrong way. :-/
You can almost guarantee it'll be based on hive fleet. Not that it really matters, most people don't know which fleets are which anyways.
First, there is no rule requiring your models to even be painted, let alone painted a certain way to get certain bonuses.
Second, nid hive fleets have changed coloration planet to planet if it was an advantage worth doing. Sometimes just adapting them to process different chemicals in the air have secondary effects on coloration.
Third, how many nid players actually follow a gw color scheme instead of just making up their own?
I never said anything about colors or paint so... chill?
I just said it'll be based on hive fleet, which is quite likely because every single book so far has been based on sub-factions.
Im chill man. I was responding to the whole little discussion there and not with a single fragment of confrontation. I am sure the rules will be based on "hive fleets". But alitoc has nothing to worry about paint. Paint is meaningless.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Amishprn86 wrote: Yeah you know we will see Leviathan, Behemoth, Kraken, Gorgon for sure.
Yes they have colors tided to them but NO one is going to tell you to repaint your army for a small bonus, everyone knows paint doesnt equal rules.
That should be true but it didnt stop a massive argument about guard regiments with models/paint equating to rules. Some people cant seem to let go of wysiwyg as a rule.
There is no problem painting things in your own colour sceme. But there is a problem painting them in a known sceme they are not. Because the colour will contain gameplay information. It is like seeing a unit with a powerfist, asume it is a powerfist, but actually your opponent is using it as a melta gun. WYSIWUG is about having a clean play experience.
Tyran wrote: If we get the -1 to hit trait, it will probably have a restriction that it doesn't work with similar rules. Otherwise malanthropes become the most broken thing in the game.
The Malanthrope would certainly be even more auto include than it currently is, but the thing about that -1 to hit is that there's a 12" restriction. It's not like melee bugs would become invincible. To be honest, it would just help our poor shooting gunlines have a chance against armies like IG and Robbie G...even then, I'd be pretty surprised if that WASN'T one of our hive fleet traits. I feel like Nids need something like that to stay with the curve, especially since so many other armies have a similar trait.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And FWIW about paint, I know that some events won't allow you to play an "ultramarines" army that cleary is in a DA, BA, or Salamanders color scheme. But I feel like that's not something you run into a ton any more, plus, as has been said, the Tyranid Hive fleets suffer less from a widely recognizable paint scheme. Hardly something to worry about.
Should I worry that I STILL can't come up with a paint scheme for my Tyranids army that I've been playing since the dawn of 6th edition? PROBABLY! And I swear, it's not for lack of trying!
The nice thing about the 12" is that if they are within 12", they're gonna get charged on your turn if they don't completely wipe everything out. Most people will not risk that if they can avoid it.
The other situation is resisting first turn shooting so we aren't going in to our first turn with <50% of our army left.
Niiai wrote: There is no problem painting things in your own colour sceme. But there is a problem painting them in a known sceme they are not. Because the colour will contain gameplay information. It is like seeing a unit with a powerfist, asume it is a powerfist, but actually your opponent is using it as a melta gun. WYSIWUG is about having a clean play experience.
Paint isnt WYSIWYG, you asking players to know ALL the fluff for ALL the armies... thats ridiculous, 1/2 the players dont even have painted models let alone a scheme to go with rules and re-paint the army.
Mine are Red, if Leviathan is the rules i like, i'm going ot have Red Leviathan.
I dont know Orks, IG, GSC, Eldar colors, Heck i have 10k+ DE and I dont know the DE colors without looking them up.
Your asking something that on one cares about other than internet argument.
How can you make a claim that no-one cares? That is a huge hyperbole. I have players in my aria I know cares about this. They have even gone to great lenghts about it.
Tyran wrote: If we get the -1 to hit trait, it will probably have a restriction that it doesn't work with similar rules. Otherwise malanthropes become the most broken thing in the game.
The Malanthrope would certainly be even more auto include than it currently is, but the thing about that -1 to hit is that there's a 12" restriction. It's not like melee bugs would become invincible. To be honest, it would just help our poor shooting gunlines have a chance against armies like IG and Robbie G...even then, I'd be pretty surprised if that WASN'T one of our hive fleet traits. I feel like Nids need something like that to stay with the curve, especially since so many other armies have a similar trait.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And FWIW about paint, I know that some events won't allow you to play an "ultramarines" army that cleary is in a DA, BA, or Salamanders color scheme. But I feel like that's not something you run into a ton any more, plus, as has been said, the Tyranid Hive fleets suffer less from a widely recognizable paint scheme. Hardly something to worry about.
Should I worry that I STILL can't come up with a paint scheme for my Tyranids army that I've been playing since the dawn of 6th edition? PROBABLY! And I swear, it's not for lack of trying!
And the thing about -2 is that it will make Tyranids unbelievably strong against any shooting army. Space Marines would hit us on 5+, IG on 6+ and Orks wouldn't even bother shooting.
It would be basically halving the firepower of the best shooting units in the best case scenario, completely nullifying it in the worst case scenario.
"Page 135 – Take Cover!
Change the first sentence of this stratagem to read:
‘Use this Stratagem in your opponent’s Shooting
phase when your opponent selects one of your Astra
Militarum Infantry units as a target.’"
Whoever said it wouldn't make it past the first FAQ gets a no-prize, haha. Too bad, that could have been nice to abuse.
I was surprised by that too, i actually like it, tho i know IG players hate it.
Honestly the fack that IG infantry can be boosted by so much while immune to moral is just insane to me, gants, cultist, and many others dont get both buffs and immune, its either 1 or the other. They also have a 5+ save where all others are 6+ saves.
Imagine if gants in synapse also got to shoot 4x and can re-roll 1's with a 5+ save... think about that.
With the drop of the Eldar (Craftworlds) Codex how do we see this impacting our codex in the coming weeks?
I for one would love to see more named characters. We only have 4, swarmlord, old one eye, deathleaper. It seems like all the other armies have a lot more than us.
Maybe they will bring back the Doom of malantai and the Parasite of Mortex. Also, i think a named character Malanthrope would be cool.
I wonder if we will be able to take multiple hive fleets strategems etc... like guard can with regiment, eldar with craftworlds...
Any specific units on the Eldar codex that you see will cause Nids problems?
Interesting rewording of brood brothers. That would disallow any sub faction specific relics, warlord traits, strategems and so on. Though I think they could still use generic ones and pick a doctrine.
Lance845 wrote: Interesting rewording of brood brothers. That would disallow any sub faction specific relics, warlord traits, strategems and so on. Though I think they could still use generic ones and pick a doctrine.
No, brood brothers AM get the Brood Brothers keyword for Regiment, so they don't have access to Regimental doctrines.
It is also implied that there will be a subfaction rule for Brood Brothers AM in the Genestealer Cult Codex.
Lance845 wrote: Interesting rewording of brood brothers. That would disallow any sub faction specific relics, warlord traits, strategems and so on. Though I think they could still use generic ones and pick a doctrine.
No, brood brothers AM get the Brood Brothers keyword for Regiment, so they don't have access to Regimental doctrines.
It is also implied that there will be a subfaction rule for Brood Brothers AM in the Genestealer Cult Codex.
I honestly thought thats what they were going to do this full time.
Lance845 wrote: Interesting rewording of brood brothers. That would disallow any sub faction specific relics, warlord traits, strategems and so on. Though I think they could still use generic ones and pick a doctrine.
No, brood brothers AM get the Brood Brothers keyword for Regiment, so they don't have access to Regimental doctrines.
It is also implied that there will be a subfaction rule for Brood Brothers AM in the Genestealer Cult Codex.
While I agree that that is what is going to end up happening, right now it's a Astra Militarium detachment with a regiment named brood brothers and any regiment that doesn't have a doctrine is allowed to pick one that best represents them. This isn't like DKoK or Elysians where they are their own army that just so happens to mostly use AM datasheets. This is literally a generic AM detachment that all share the same regiment keyword. RAW, they get to pick a doctrine.
I SUPPOSE you could argue that it has to be a AM detachment and not a Brood Brother detachment or some such. I would need to see the actual wording on choosing doctrines to make a call on that.
Traceoftoxin wrote: "Page 135 – Take Cover!
Change the first sentence of this stratagem to read:
‘Use this Stratagem in your opponent’s Shooting
phase when your opponent selects one of your Astra
Militarum Infantry units as a target.’"
Whoever said it wouldn't make it past the first FAQ gets a no-prize, haha. Too bad, that could have been nice to abuse.
Yay, I won nothing
I hope Brood Brothers get Traits, Stratagem and Relic. I’m on a roll, so I’m gonna say they get Rending bayonets
Lance845 wrote: Interesting rewording of brood brothers. That would disallow any sub faction specific relics, warlord traits, strategems and so on. Though I think they could still use generic ones and pick a doctrine.
No, brood brothers AM get the Brood Brothers keyword for Regiment, so they don't have access to Regimental doctrines.
It is also implied that there will be a subfaction rule for Brood Brothers AM in the Genestealer Cult Codex.
While I agree that that is what is going to end up happening, right now it's a Astra Militarium detachment with a regiment named brood brothers and any regiment that doesn't have a doctrine is allowed to pick one that best represents them. This isn't like DKoK or Elysians where they are their own army that just so happens to mostly use AM datasheets. This is literally a generic AM detachment that all share the same regiment keyword. RAW, they get to pick a doctrine.
I SUPPOSE you could argue that it has to be a AM detachment and not a Brood Brother detachment or some such. I would need to see the actual wording on choosing doctrines to make a call on that.
That's why we have FAQs.
Q: Can an Astra Militarum Detachment that is
included in an army alongside a Genestealer Cults
Detachment using the Brood Brothers rule gain a
Regimental Doctrine, and can the units in such a
Detachment use any of the regiment-specific Stratagems,
Warlord Traits, Orders, Relics, etc.?
A: No, Brood Brothers Detachments cannot use any
regiment-specific rules.
Note that when included in an army alongside
a Genestealer Cults Detachment, all Astra
Militarum units should replace their <Regiment>
keyword with Brood Brothers in every instance
on their datasheets. Full rules for using Brood
Brothers detachments will be described in Codex:
Genestealer Cults.
Q: Can an Astra Militarum Detachment that is included in an army alongside a Genestealer Cults Detachment using the Brood Brothers rule gain a Regimental Doctrine, and can the units in such a Detachment use any of the regiment-specific Stratagems, Warlord Traits, Orders, Relics, etc.?
A: No, Brood Brothers Detachments cannot use any regiment-specific rules.
Note that when included in an army alongside a Genestealer Cults Detachment, all Astra Militarum units should replace their <Regiment> keyword with Brood Brothers in every instance on their datasheets. Full rules for using Brood Brothers detachments will be described in Codex: Genestealer Cults.
Hey all. Decided to join the Hive Mind and have been reading up on some tactics/info on Nids.
I know we get the book NOV, so previews next week or possibly this week.
I know its a loaded question as points could fluctuate up or down for models, but whats a handful of units that you will need no matter what? Or some of the best models you think youd always want to take? Trying to plan out some purchases.
str00dles1 wrote: Hey all. Decided to join the Hive Mind and have been reading up on some tactics/info on Nids.
I know we get the book NOV, so previews next week or possibly this week.
I know its a loaded question as points could fluctuate up or down for models, but whats a handful of units that you will need no matter what? Or some of the best models you think youd always want to take? Trying to plan out some purchases.
You will probably need Termagants. The rest is very much depending on the new codex. Genestealers are very good at the moment, but who knows what happens in the codex?
Also I’m excited to see what Tyranids will have for chapter tactics. -1 to hit will be huge, as that seems to be pretty stock for most new armies, especially if it can stack with the Malanthrope! All of a sudden, Guilliman lists are only re-rolling 1’s! Suck it false emperor!
While it would be nice, I don't see Tyranids getting the -1 to hit at 12'' away trait since we already have access to a -1 to hit bubble in both HQ and Elite slots.
No we don't. Forgeworld isn't codex, and not even allowed in some tournaments (like the big ones we have over here). Venomthropes are hot garbage atm. A -1 to hit feels necessary to have a chance against AM gunlines and Tau commander spam.
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str00dles1 wrote: Hey all. Decided to join the Hive Mind and have been reading up on some tactics/info on Nids.
I know we get the book NOV, so previews next week or possibly this week.
I know its a loaded question as points could fluctuate up or down for models, but whats a handful of units that you will need no matter what? Or some of the best models you think youd always want to take? Trying to plan out some purchases.
Best index units currently are Biovores and Exocrines. Hive Guards are also good. Ripper Swarms are our best scoring troops (deepstrike ObSec for 33pts? Gimme!).
But I wouldn't buy anything, just a few weeks before a new codex is released. Everything can change.
You will probably need Termagants. The rest is very much depending on the new codex. Genestealers are very good at the moment, but who knows what happens in the codex?
Given Genestealers are in the new start collecting box (alongside a Broodlord and Trygon) odds are good that they will remain strong (and if nothing else can always run them as Purestrain Genestealers if they do get nerfed).
No we don't. Forgeworld isn't codex, and not even allowed in some tournaments (like the big ones we have over here). Venomthropes are hot garbage atm. A -1 to hit feels necessary to have a chance against AM gunlines and Tau commander spam.
Not meaning to come across as rude, but local restrictions have no baring on the capabilities of the army as a whole. As far as design goes, Tyranids already have access to a -1 to hit effect from two different sources whos primary purpose is to provide said effect bubble (the viability of those sources not withstanding) which makes the likelihood of seeing a global -1 to hit trait unlikely. I'd love to see it from a raw power perspective (means one either has a global -2 and can laugh off gunlines or at worst a global -1 without having to dedicate points to support units) but as of now I don't expect it.
Spoletta wrote: Ok, after reading the eldar tactica thread i'm assaulted by a doubt.
Can 4x zoans cast smite more than once each turn?
I defaulted to no as an answer and just to make sure i went to check the rulebook, but... it turns out that they can.
4d3 mortal wounds per turn?? Really???
What?
A single unit of zoanthropes cannot cast smite more than once. having a unit of 4 models changed the damage to d3. The unit can still only cast it once. If your opponent has 4 units of 4 zoanthropes they have invested very heavily in their smite spam.
Spoletta wrote:Well, Eldars are full of hit modifiers (up to -4) and still got it.
True, but in every instance their additional modifiers are limited to individual units (namely rangers, shadow specters, warp spiders and their planes). They don't have the ability to stack modifiers across the army as a whole.
Also out of curiosity, how did you come up with a -4 modifier? The worst I could come up with was a -3 (Innate + Alaitoc, + Conceal).
Spoletta wrote:Can 4x zoans cast smite more than once each turn?
No, per page 178 of the rulebook. A psyker can only attempt a given power once per turn. The matched play rules are probably to blame for the confusion, as they state "with exception to smite" and then include the restriction modification for matched play that modifies the normal restriction.
ChargerIIC wrote: Look up the Astropath and it's 15pt cost. Then don't feel so bad.
The consensus on the eldar thread is that you can (for warlock council). Looking at the rules, a psyker cannot cast the same power twice, but all the models in those units have the psyker rule. Indeed i can see why they think that this is valid.
Spoletta wrote: The consensus on the eldar thread is that you can (for warlock council). Looking at the rules, a psyker cannot cast the same power twice, but all the models in those units have the psyker rule. Indeed i can see why they think that this is valid.
Models don't cast psychic powers. Units do. It says it on the appropriate datasheet. It says it in the zoanthrope psyker section of the datasheet. "A unit of Zoanthropes can attempt..."
This is where it gets confusing, the rules assume that a model is manifesting, so the limits are on the model, but what happens when a whole unit manifests a power?
Lance i can see what you say being true, i was sure of it until an hour or so ago, but there seems to be a lot of people who go for the other interpretation, so maybe we should make a YMDC.
Spoletta wrote: This is where it gets confusing, the rules assume that a model is manifesting, so the limits are on the model, but what happens when a whole unit manifests a power?
Lance i can see what you say being true, i was sure of it until an hour or so ago, but there seems to be a lot of people who go for the other interpretation, so maybe we should make a YMDC.
What? lol, the Zoanthrope rules literally says the unit is manifesting the power. A Unit can only manifest the same power once....
Edit: Lets say you are right about each model can cast Smite, it doesnt matter b.c the Zoanthrope rules state the "Unit manifests the power" and in the rules on pg 178 a psycker can not manifest the same power more than once.
What if zoeys are changed so that they are bought as a 1-4 or something like that but operate independently, are deployed as separate units and are considered separate units.
Never know - GW may change various parts of the rules for this thing (I know wishful thinking)
Supreme Command
Company Commander (Warlord, 5+ refund CP trait and 5+ gain CP from enemy strat relic)
Primaris Psyker
Primaris Psyker
Primaris Psyker
Primaris Psyker
Reasoning -
With the malanthrope, 110 bodies on the field should take a lot of firepower to remove. Hormagaunts are extremely good at one thing, locking things down. Gargoyles are faster and will take priority to stop, genestealers obviously hit harder. So the enemy has tough choices to make. One GS unit can ride with the Trygon, which will protect one of my hammer units and give me flexibility on deployment. The Trygon is a decent hammer itself.
With Broodlord and Patriarch I have access to two separate -1 to hit spells. I also will have the 5+ FNP. The four primaris are just there for helping with denying smite spam, doing the smite spam themselves, though they all know 2 extra power so they all can choose to use the AM mortal wounds abilities instead.
Company Commander should, statistically, give me another 2 CP from my own CP, and most likely another 2 from the opponent.
The total is 1944, so I still have 56 points left.
From what I've seen in my local meta, very few armies have enough firepower to clear that much chaff before it matters. I have a lack of shooting to clear out chaff myself, but, I think smite will deal with smaller screens, and larger screens should be close enough to enemy lines that I may be able to use the 6+6 combat movement of the hormagaunt to reach other units. It's not the best counter, but I think it will work fairly well.
With the last 56 pts I can put adrenal glands on the Trygon and all the Stealers, or I can pick up an additional unit of acolytes, or I can grab rippers and a heavy saw for the acolytes, or something else entirely.
You might want to consider swapping the company commander for a Lord Commissar, as there doesn't appear to be anything to use orders on and having a Commissar shuts down the kaboom caused by a Primaris Psyker periling themselves to death. Given you already have a GSC detachment and a Patriarch you may also want to convert one of the Hive Fleet Genestealer squads to a Purestrain squad, allowing them to ambush alongside the Patriarch while the other brood goes with the Trygon.
As for the Acolytes, given the amount of melee capability the list already has you might be better served with Neophyte squads in their place for infantry clearing. If not, I'd probably try to find points to give the Acolytes Demolition Charges for a bit of flexibility without breaking the bank (smaller squads are better kept "cheap" and disposable - save the Heavy Rock weapons for vehicle mounted units and larger squads).
Hoping this new book makes my old 2nd ed tyranid army useable again.
Tried it before in last edition but it was a joke lol.
I just love the nostalgia of running the old metal models.
Only downside is it looks like I'll have to pick up more zoeys and vores now as 6 of each may not be enough.
Am kind of sad about the change to lash whips however.
Got 12 warriors with whip and sword, so will have to pick up more swords of eBay to swap them out.
Amishprn86 wrote: Your "opponent" will NOT care what color your models are, as long as if you are using "different" fleets they are not identical in looks.
If you think players are suppose to know 80-90 essential "chapter tactics colors", then you are the exaggerated one.
ESPECIALLY when its NEVER been a rule before and STILL isnt a rule now to have painted models based on rules.
Players in tournament will care about whatever rules they can use to get an advantage. And that's not even a bad thing, they are simply following the rules as well. It's that simple.
Amishprn86 wrote: Your "opponent" will NOT care what color your models are, as long as if you are using "different" fleets they are not identical in looks.
If you think players are suppose to know 80-90 essential "chapter tactics colors", then you are the exaggerated one.
ESPECIALLY when its NEVER been a rule before and STILL isnt a rule now to have painted models based on rules.
Players in tournament will care about whatever rules they can use to get an advantage. And that's not even a bad thing, they are simply following the rules as well. It's that simple.
I actually think it is a rule, it would be covered under the spirit of what you see is what you get, when it comes to model representation.
Say someone have an army with several different detachments of spacemarines that are identical except for the chapter tactics. And I am looking at your army list to identefy your units and I am looking at the table where there are, there is no way to identefy witch is witch. If the players can not identefy witch is witch there is a problem there. This even aplies if they are all unpainted, even if there are no rules requiering painted models.
Also please do not misquote me to to say players need to know 80 to 90 colours. This is a bad way to discredit me.
A more realistic thing would be playing against a fully painted ultramarines army, but fielding the ranged models as raven guard for the harder to hit strategem, and fielding the more close combat units as salamanders to get the re-rolls.
I also think you will find people who has played warhammer over several years can probably name 80-90 chapters. I know two players who can do this IRL. I would suspect there more then enough on the forum who can do this, so it is not like the claim your represent as impossible is impossible. First founding alone has 18 colour schemes. Add in second founding on loyalist chapters and you are well over halfway.
So your telling me there will not be 80 of those in total that has their own "color" scheme?
SM: UM, WS, IH, Salamnd, RG, IF, CF, BT, GK, BA, DA Nids: Leviathan, Behemoth, Kraken, Gorgon, Dagon
CSM: AL, BL, EC, IW, NL, Ren, WB, WE Chaos: etc...
Tau: etc...
Eldar: Etc..
DE: Etc..
Necrons: Etc..
All the other armies not mentioned many of those are getting multi ones some tho are stand alone.
Then what if the rules change again? and again? you expected to re-paint your army each time? No, just call it <My Random Army name> and it uses <What every chapter i like> and be done with it.
Im not saying make each different chapter detachment unnoticeable, i'm just saying its not a rule and very silly to ask players to re-paint there armies for a temp rule b.c 1% of the players are QQing on the internet.
Paint wise as long as it is clear that these models are one Hive fleet and these are a different one it dosen't matter if they are neon pink and chekerboard (maby they ate too many Harliquins) as long as they are easily identifiable as different.
Question (I have some converted Biovores, i am boycotting finecast).
I know Biovores are 60mm, but did they always come on 60mm? I remember many pictures having both 60mm AND 40mm, so i did 40mm since i had those bases and there was pictures with them (on the GW website). I thought i saw my old friends buy them and came with 40mm, as well. Tho the 6th ed codex shows a 60mm.
Sooo I've been playing my Tyranids in preperation of getting ready for the Codex drop. And I am super sad to see a couple of my old favorites suck but very happy with the army overall from index rules.
Zoanthropes. They are expensive and not worth their points. And their warpblast is a farcry of what it used to be. I hope they completely rewrite this rule in the codex.
Malaceptor is one of my favorite looking models, too bad it sucks. Better than 7th. Still hot trash. Hope they completely rework this model's rules.
Carnifexes, need a slight points drop. Other than that like them! Though not having old one eye is not proper if you are running more than two.
Venonthropes, need to be able to do more damage in melee. Give them WS3 and 3 attacks base. If not, allow their spore to block monsterious creatures to make them more useful.
Lictors: I would like the lictors to have 4 attacks base. Otherwise pretty good.
Hive Tyrant: really really really really either needs a Relic to give him +1 to saves (2+/4++)* cannot be taken with wings* or recive a sizable drop in points or a craptton more wounds added. As of right now, I have yet to play a game where he isn't focused fired and kill within the first two rounds of the game. If your opponent knows anything about Tyranids. He will throw Laz Cannons, missle, grav, melta, plasma at it. And to be blunt the Hive Tyrant is not tough enough to withstand the focus fire he gets. Other than that, great model.
Overall, the Tyranids feel and play pretty good from the index. Despite my nitpicks, I like the way they play, though their biggest problem imho is their big bugs are overall too expensive. Slide their points down across the whole faction and I think the army will be gold.
Tsol wrote: Sooo I've been playing my Tyranids in preperation of getting ready for the Codex drop. And I am super sad to see a couple of my old favorites suck but very happy with the army overall from index rules.
Zoanthropes. They are expensive and not worth their points. And their warpblast is a farcry of what it used to be. I hope they completely rewrite this rule in the codex.
Malaceptor is one of my favorite looking models, too bad it sucks. Better than 7th. Still hot trash. Hope they completely rework this model's rules.
Carnifexes, need a slight points drop. Other than that like them! Though not having old one eye is not proper if you are running more than two.
Venonthropes, need to be able to do more damage in melee. Give them WS3 and 3 attacks base. If not, allow their spore to block monsterious creatures to make them more useful.
Lictors: I would like the lictors to have 4 attacks base. Otherwise pretty good.
Hive Tyrant: really really really really either needs a Relic to give him +1 to saves (2+/4++)* cannot be taken with wings* or recive a sizable drop in points or a craptton more wounds added. As of right now, I have yet to play a game where he isn't focused fired and kill within the first two rounds of the game. If your opponent knows anything about Tyranids. He will throw Laz Cannons, missle, grav, melta, plasma at it. And to be blunt the Hive Tyrant is not tough enough to withstand the focus fire he gets. Other than that, great model.
Overall, the Tyranids feel and play pretty good from the index. Despite my nitpicks, I like the way they play, though their biggest problem imho is their big bugs are overall too expensive. Slide their points down across the whole faction and I think the army will be gold.
Thoughts?
Sad that, wanting to get into Tyranids, some of these are my favourite too (Hive Tyrants, Carnifexes, and Zoanthropes), and it's sad to hear they're a bit below par. Can I ask, what units have you found to be useful and strong in your games?
Amishprn86 wrote: Carnifex's are not bad, honestly they are great in non tournament (GT)
I strongly disagree. I play in a very casual group and I frequently ran carnifexes in my first couple of games of 8th and they were awful. They could barely dent a tank with claws and THREE (3) got bogged down in a few Tac Marine units when given two scything talons.
4 attacks at WS4+ is awful.
I also dislike the idea of units of zoanthropes. They should be units of 1+ and get access to normal Smite and be something like add a mortal would for each additonal Zoanthrope within 6"
Strat_N8 wrote: You might want to consider swapping the company commander for a Lord Commissar, as there doesn't appear to be anything to use orders on and having a Commissar shuts down the kaboom caused by a Primaris Psyker periling themselves to death. Given you already have a GSC detachment and a Patriarch you may also want to convert one of the Hive Fleet Genestealer squads to a Purestrain squad, allowing them to ambush alongside the Patriarch while the other brood goes with the Trygon.
As for the Acolytes, given the amount of melee capability the list already has you might be better served with Neophyte squads in their place for infantry clearing. If not, I'd probably try to find points to give the Acolytes Demolition Charges for a bit of flexibility without breaking the bank (smaller squads are better kept "cheap" and disposable - save the Heavy Rock weapons for vehicle mounted units and larger squads).
Hope that helps and good luck!
Interesting idea for the Lord Com, but with the very low chance of dying to a perils, I don't think he warrants the points increase and loss of (possible) cp.
I do have the points to change one GS squad to purestrain, and it certainly isn't a bad idea. In some matchups I can force the fire onto the 90 swarm bodies, though I don't like the 33% chance of a loss of control in deployment. Definitely a good idea and something I will consider.
I had thought of using the neophytes, but I'm not sure 10 neophytes will provide much actual infantry clearing ability? Against T3, 5 wounds before saves, T4, 3.33 wounds. So might clear 1-2 scouts or 3 conscripts. On a 5 from ambush they double the damage, or on a 5/6 can move into flamer range, which would be much more effective with a pair of flamers (lose average 2xs3 hits and gain average 7xs4 hits). Could also do shotguns, on a 5 for ambush you have a 50% chance of getting close enough to get the S4. Interesting possibility. Not sold on it for sure, but definitely something I'll think about.
Other inputs? These are good ideas, I'd like to hear more.
I also dislike the idea of units of zoanthropes. They should be units of 1+ and get access to normal Smite and be something like add a mortal would for each additonal Zoanthrope within 6"
Agreed. They either need to be able to cast smite on a PER MODEL basis or they need to be able to be split up on deployment but taken as a unit like the Carnifex current is.
Amishprn86 wrote: Question (I have some converted Biovores, i am boycotting finecast).
I know Biovores are 60mm, but did they always come on 60mm? I remember many pictures having both 60mm AND 40mm, so i did 40mm since i had those bases and there was pictures with them (on the GW website). I thought i saw my old friends buy them and came with 40mm, as well. Tho the 6th ed codex shows a 60mm.
Does anyone else have theirs on 40mm like me?
Pretty sure they have been 40mm. Pyrovores (often used for biovores since bios look so dumb) came on 60s.
Amishprn86 wrote: Carnifex's are not bad, honestly they are great in non tournament (GT)
I strongly disagree. I play in a very casual group and I frequently ran carnifexes in my first couple of games of 8th and they were awful. They could barely dent a tank with claws and THREE (3) got bogged down in a few Tac Marine units when given two scything talons.
4 attacks at WS4+ is awful.
I also dislike the idea of units of zoanthropes. They should be units of 1+ and get access to normal Smite and be something like add a mortal would for each additonal Zoanthrope within 6"
Ah, that makes since why you dont like them, but i take them cheap with MST, 1 more attack and and re-rill 1's, i dont think iw ould ever use the claws, 4+ to hit with a -1 to hit is just stupid. I wish it didnt have -1 to hit against vehicles.
Amishprn86 wrote: Question (I have some converted Biovores, i am boycotting finecast).
I know Biovores are 60mm, but did they always come on 60mm? I remember many pictures having both 60mm AND 40mm, so i did 40mm since i had those bases and there was pictures with them (on the GW website). I thought i saw my old friends buy them and came with 40mm, as well. Tho the 6th ed codex shows a 60mm.
Does anyone else have theirs on 40mm like me?
Pretty sure they have been 40mm. Pyrovores (often used for biovores since bios look so dumb) came on 60s.
The website now says 60mm and the 6/7th book shows them on a large base, thats why i asked.
Amishprn86 wrote: Carnifex's are not bad, honestly they are great in non tournament (GT)
I strongly disagree. I play in a very casual group and I frequently ran carnifexes in my first couple of games of 8th and they were awful. They could barely dent a tank with claws and THREE (3) got bogged down in a few Tac Marine units when given two scything talons.
4 attacks at WS4+ is awful.
I also dislike the idea of units of zoanthropes. They should be units of 1+ and get access to normal Smite and be something like add a mortal would for each additonal Zoanthrope within 6"
Ah, that makes since why you dont like them, but i take them cheap with MST, 1 more attack and and re-rill 1's, i dont think iw ould ever use the claws, 4+ to hit with a -1 to hit is just stupid. I wish it didnt have -1 to hit against vehicles.
I said I did take them with 2x scything talons the second time. They were still crap.
I dont think they are good AT or AI, they ar meant for Light vehicles/artillery/bikes, things with 6 or less wounds, getting 2 wounding hits in isnt that hard (5 attacks re-roll 1's wounding on 3+) if both wounds go through thats 6 damage, the only problem is getting there.
But i understand why you dont like them and i dont disagree with you, just i like them for their Niche and price, tho i do wish they would be 3+ instead of 4+.... idk why they are 3+ kinda stupid.
No we don't. Forgeworld isn't codex, and not even allowed in some tournaments (like the big ones we have over here). Venomthropes are hot garbage atm. A -1 to hit feels necessary to have a chance against AM gunlines and Tau commander spam.
Not meaning to come across as rude, but local restrictions have no baring on the capabilities of the army as a whole. As far as design goes, Tyranids already have access to a -1 to hit effect from two different sources whos primary purpose is to provide said effect bubble (the viability of those sources not withstanding) which makes the likelihood of seeing a global -1 to hit trait unlikely. I'd love to see it from a raw power perspective (means one either has a global -2 and can laugh off gunlines or at worst a global -1 without having to dedicate points to support units) but as of now I don't expect it.
Forgeworld isn't part of the codex. Do you tink GW play test codices with Forgeworld in mind?
As mentioned Eldar got several ways to stack enemy penalties to hit, so I doubt our sorry Venomthropes would get in the way of an army wide -1 to hit for say, Hive Fleet Leviathan.
Amishprn86 wrote: Question (I have some converted Biovores, i am boycotting finecast).
I know Biovores are 60mm, but did they always come on 60mm? I remember many pictures having both 60mm AND 40mm, so i did 40mm since i had those bases and there was pictures with them (on the GW website). I thought i saw my old friends buy them and came with 40mm, as well. Tho the 6th ed codex shows a 60mm.
Does anyone else have theirs on 40mm like me?
I just bought a Biovore from the local GW - it came on a 40mm base. Finecast. It might have sat on a shelf for who knows how long though
Warriors are confusing for me - I have 6 with 50mm bases that came with them unbuilt and 9 with 40mm bases. Hive Guard are on 40mm bases as well
Niiai wrote: How can you make a claim that no-one cares? That is a huge hyperbole. I have players in my aria I know cares about this. They have even gone to great lenghts about it.
I think it's awesome that you wrote an opera about 40k.
I just bought a Biovore from the local GW - it came on a 40mm base. Finecast. It might have sat on a shelf for who knows how long though
Warriors are confusing for me - I have 6 with 50mm bases that came with them unbuilt and 9 with 40mm bases. Hive Guard are on 40mm bases as well
Apparently it depends on where you got them from.
Most of the standalone Warrior boxes provide them on 40mm. Some of the older army box-sets provided them with 50mm bases. Similarly, some older box-sets had Carnifexes on 105mm oval bases.
This link has a pretty good run down of which bases have been provided to which models, as well as outlining the inconsistencies.
So I email GW about the bases, they said use w/e base size i want. This was basically their stance in 7th, but new edition means all old rules are gone, so i wanted to make sure.
I understand that, but given past editions (7th) with official rulings on it, you can base your models what you feel is appropriate (outside of modeling for advantage) it will forever be a grey area i think. Im just pointing out that it "seems" their stance is the same from 7th as of right now. Take it how you will.
Oh my, had my first game against gulliman today. The game ended turn 5, I had 8 points, he had 9. But I had so little left. It sort of had a caskading effect.
Guliman + long ranged gunline is the devil. Yes I know I am late to the party when it comes toe xperience this, but it quite clearly was as bad as it looked in paper. :-)
Edit:
I want tio try out some cultist allies. I have acess to 2 maguses, 1 primus, 1 patriarch, 1 cult chimera and a group of genestealers. Witch one of them are most copetettive? Are the genstealers to expsensive at 15 points each? should I just take the HQ's?
Edit 2:
Just wondering if somebody has mathhammered the averedge chance of killing guliman with the swarmlord in one turn of combat? Math says no. Of the 6 boneswords attacks only 1 hits, wounds and pass the 3++ save, dealing 3,5 damage. even if by some moracle the swarm lord takes him out there is a 50% chaance guliman comes right back out on 1 wound.
And can I say if the Tyranids in general, and the Swarmlord in particular, has not evolved in the 100 year jump in the setting I will be very disapointed.
Tsol wrote: Sooo I've been playing my Tyranids in preperation of getting ready for the Codex drop. And I am super sad to see a couple of my old favorites suck but very happy with the army overall from index rules.
Zoanthropes. They are expensive and not worth their points. And their warpblast is a farcry of what it used to be. I hope they completely rewrite this rule in the codex.
Malaceptor is one of my favorite looking models, too bad it sucks. Better than 7th. Still hot trash. Hope they completely rework this model's rules.
Carnifexes, need a slight points drop. Other than that like them! Though not having old one eye is not proper if you are running more than two.
Venonthropes, need to be able to do more damage in melee. Give them WS3 and 3 attacks base. If not, allow their spore to block monsterious creatures to make them more useful.
Lictors: I would like the lictors to have 4 attacks base. Otherwise pretty good.
Hive Tyrant: really really really really either needs a Relic to give him +1 to saves (2+/4++)* cannot be taken with wings* or recive a sizable drop in points or a craptton more wounds added. As of right now, I have yet to play a game where he isn't focused fired and kill within the first two rounds of the game. If your opponent knows anything about Tyranids. He will throw Laz Cannons, missle, grav, melta, plasma at it. And to be blunt the Hive Tyrant is not tough enough to withstand the focus fire he gets. Other than that, great model.
Overall, the Tyranids feel and play pretty good from the index. Despite my nitpicks, I like the way they play, though their biggest problem imho is their big bugs are overall too expensive. Slide their points down across the whole faction and I think the army will be gold.
Thoughts?
Sad that, wanting to get into Tyranids, some of these are my favourite too (Hive Tyrants, Carnifexes, and Zoanthropes), and it's sad to hear they're a bit below par. Can I ask, what units have you found to be useful and strong in your games?
Don't get me wrong. The army is very competitive even without a codex, but it does have some issues once I had become familiar with them in this edition. Hive Tyrants lack survivability, if they are actually able to get into melee, they will do work. Tyrand Guard are a must if you don't want it blown off the table by turn two. DON"T upgrade the tyrant Guard. They are ablative wounds, nothing more. Though if you take them just as mini carnifexes they can do some work. Carnifexes are simply overcosted, they need about a 30pts drop or give them a few more wounds. Also, only take them if you intend to take a character. Sadly GW rules writers built the Carnifex brood around being lead by Old one eye, this heavy forced hand restricts how you can play them effectivly. Still good, but you're not playing right if you don't take him along with them. Zoananthropes are some of my favorite looking models. Again, I'll just repeat myself, I hope they completly redo their rules. As is, they are both boring and not good.
As for whats good? Warriors. Warriors stock or kitted out are great. Guant of all flavors; these pains in the butts are fantastic points per value. Hormaguant can consolidate 6" into enemies, making them absurdly good if they somehow survive a turn ot two of being shot at. Regualar gaunts by themselves are hot garbage untill you do some fun things with them. Such as take 30 guants give 15 or 10 of them devilgaunts and have them sit next to a Tervigon and just keep replenishing the squad. They get better at range due to their blob rule and reinforce from the tervigon if hit too much. Also, 20 man blob of devilgaunts inside a sporepod behind enemy lines is a hoot. Rippers, although they don't do jack, now have some interesting utility, they can deepsrike or tie up tanks making them annoying and fun.
Biovores and just spore mines in general are fantastic psycological weapons. Mortal wounds make people make rash decisions. Venomthropes are garbage but that sweet -1 to hit makes them worth taking, but don't expect them to be helpful after turn two. They will either be dead or no longer in range of the army to give them their buff.
Ravenors, Red Terror, Trygon Prime are fun as hell. They pop up, unload lots of shots and then charge into melee and are good at everything, though a bit weak in taking a hit. Mawloc is gak. Though it is fun to scare your opponets with is rules, but in practice he doesn't do much.
Genestealers. Hot. Damn. They are what they should be and somehow are even more terryfing when accompandied by big daddy stealer.
LIctors are great. They don't kill too much but they tie up and can melee snipe heavy weapons units and thier precense along forces your opponent to carefuly place and support things, controlling how he moves which in the end, benefits you.
As for the others I don't have good input yet as I am still playing with the army.
Amishprn86 wrote: Carnifex's are not bad, honestly they are great in non tournament (GT)
I strongly disagree. I play in a very casual group and I frequently ran carnifexes in my first couple of games of 8th and they were awful. They could barely dent a tank with claws and THREE (3) got bogged down in a few Tac Marine units when given two scything talons.
4 attacks at WS4+ is awful.
Deathspitters, Bio-plasma, and dirt cheap, makes them my favorite unit in the game
Just wondering if somebody has mathhammered the averedge chance of killing guliman with the swarmlord in one turn of combat? Math says no. Of the 6 boneswords attacks only 1 hits, wounds and pass the 3++ save, dealing 3,5 damage. even if by some moracle the swarm lord takes him out there is a 50% chaance guliman comes right back out on 1 wound.
I ran the stats for the swarmlord and Guilliman through an excel sheet I have for finding the expected damage. On average, the swarmlord does 4.028 damage against him, including the tail. But this does not mean that you can't kill him in one shot. I therefore simulated the attacks in python to see how often you get the kill in one turn. I performed the random attacks 100000 times. Guilliman died about 9000 of these times. So, on average, you would expect the swarmlord to kill Guilliman in one combat phase about 9% of the time. This also includes the tail, and does not include his ability to live again.
If the average is 4 damage it says everything you need right there. Your 9% is again cut down to 4,5. And he will probably use a commanf point for re-roll some.where in there.
Tsol wrote: Sooo I've been playing my Tyranids in preperation of getting ready for the Codex drop. And I am super sad to see a couple of my old favorites suck but very happy with the army overall from index rules.
Zoanthropes. They are expensive and not worth their points. And their warpblast is a farcry of what it used to be. I hope they completely rewrite this rule in the codex.
Malaceptor is one of my favorite looking models, too bad it sucks. Better than 7th. Still hot trash. Hope they completely rework this model's rules.
Carnifexes, need a slight points drop. Other than that like them! Though not having old one eye is not proper if you are running more than two.
Venonthropes, need to be able to do more damage in melee. Give them WS3 and 3 attacks base. If not, allow their spore to block monsterious creatures to make them more useful.
Lictors: I would like the lictors to have 4 attacks base. Otherwise pretty good.
Hive Tyrant: really really really really either needs a Relic to give him +1 to saves (2+/4++)* cannot be taken with wings* or recive a sizable drop in points or a craptton more wounds added. As of right now, I have yet to play a game where he isn't focused fired and kill within the first two rounds of the game. If your opponent knows anything about Tyranids. He will throw Laz Cannons, missle, grav, melta, plasma at it. And to be blunt the Hive Tyrant is not tough enough to withstand the focus fire he gets. Other than that, great model.
Overall, the Tyranids feel and play pretty good from the index. Despite my nitpicks, I like the way they play, though their biggest problem imho is their big bugs are overall too expensive. Slide their points down across the whole faction and I think the army will be gold.
Thoughts?
Sad that, wanting to get into Tyranids, some of these are my favourite too (Hive Tyrants, Carnifexes, and Zoanthropes), and it's sad to hear they're a bit below par. Can I ask, what units have you found to be useful and strong in your games?
Don't get me wrong. The army is very competitive even without a codex, but it does have some issues once I had become familiar with them in this edition. Hive Tyrants lack survivability, if they are actually able to get into melee, they will do work. Tyrand Guard are a must if you don't want it blown off the table by turn two. DON"T upgrade the tyrant Guard. They are ablative wounds, nothing more. Though if you take them just as mini carnifexes they can do some work. Carnifexes are simply overcosted, they need about a 30pts drop or give them a few more wounds. Also, only take them if you intend to take a character. Sadly GW rules writers built the Carnifex brood around being lead by Old one eye, this heavy forced hand restricts how you can play them effectivly. Still good, but you're not playing right if you don't take him along with them. Zoananthropes are some of my favorite looking models. Again, I'll just repeat myself, I hope they completly redo their rules. As is, they are both boring and not good.
As for whats good? Warriors. Warriors stock or kitted out are great. Guant of all flavors; these pains in the butts are fantastic points per value. Hormaguant can consolidate 6" into enemies, making them absurdly good if they somehow survive a turn ot two of being shot at. Regualar gaunts by themselves are hot garbage untill you do some fun things with them. Such as take 30 guants give 15 or 10 of them devilgaunts and have them sit next to a Tervigon and just keep replenishing the squad. They get better at range due to their blob rule and reinforce from the tervigon if hit too much. Also, 20 man blob of devilgaunts inside a sporepod behind enemy lines is a hoot. Rippers, although they don't do jack, now have some interesting utility, they can deepsrike or tie up tanks making them annoying and fun.
Biovores and just spore mines in general are fantastic psycological weapons. Mortal wounds make people make rash decisions. Venomthropes are garbage but that sweet -1 to hit makes them worth taking, but don't expect them to be helpful after turn two. They will either be dead or no longer in range of the army to give them their buff.
Ravenors, Red Terror, Trygon Prime are fun as hell. They pop up, unload lots of shots and then charge into melee and are good at everything, though a bit weak in taking a hit. Mawloc is gak. Though it is fun to scare your opponets with is rules, but in practice he doesn't do much.
Genestealers. Hot. Damn. They are what they should be and somehow are even more terryfing when accompandied by big daddy stealer.
LIctors are great. They don't kill too much but they tie up and can melee snipe heavy weapons units and thier precense along forces your opponent to carefuly place and support things, controlling how he moves which in the end, benefits you.
As for the others I don't have good input yet as I am still playing with the army.
Thanks for the follow up! Just one question. Being new to Nids, and reading around, I haven't seen anyone else impressed by warriors. How are you running them?
Niiai wrote: If the average is 4 damage it says everything you need right there. Your 9% is again cut down to 4,5. And he will probably use a commanf point for re-roll some.where in there.
I too want to know how easy it is for Gman to kill the Swarmlord and also i saw you signature, i too struggle (made a comment on it, dont want to go into detail here).
Thanks for the follow up! Just one question. Being new to Nids, and reading around, I haven't seen anyone else impressed by warriors. How are you running them?
Ive seen almost nothing but glowing reviews for warriors (and by extension shrikes).
Personally I kit out warriors with scytal, deathspitters, and a biocannon. Broods of 3-6.
Shrikes I go Scytal, Boneswords, flesh hooks, and adrenal glands.
Warriors are for synapse in mid/backfield with fire support.
Shrikes are melee surgical strike units and front line synapse to support fast melee broods (Genestealers/hormagaunts). Get in and get chopping.
Niiai wrote: If the average is 4 damage it says everything you need right there. Your 9% is again cut down to 4,5. And he will probably use a commanf point for re-roll some.where in there.
I too want to know how easy it is for Gman to kill the Swarmlord and also i saw you signature, i too struggle (made a comment on it, dont want to go into detail here).
The only time I ran Swarmy vs Bobby G I managed to Perils on the Swarmlord and the Marines managed to cast Null Zone (he survived a Stealer charge somehow) near him. The Swarmlord got the charge and one-shotted Guilliman who then got back up and one-shotted him back.
Sadly, Swarmy can't resurrect. In all honesty I think Null Zone was moot since fighting against Girlyman basically means you're eating 6 wounds that all cause 3 damage and you can't save them all barring some crazy luck.
Not so much glowing reviews for Warriors, as reviews that say they don't suck and have some utility.
As for Hormagaunts, the 6" consolidate is useful. But the caveat that they have to stay alive is a big one. Right now they are overcosted compared to a lot of units in other armies with similar roles. The fact that Kroot Hounds are better is kind of silly.
No way I'd put much into a Nid army right now, with the codex so close.
Amishprn86 wrote: Yeah, IMO all gants (H-T-G) need to be 1 point cheaper.
Agreed, or +1 Armour Save
I'd rather be cheaper to field more, just cooler looking, but +1 armor would most likely be better over all, i just want to see swarms
Tyranids are swarmy enough as it is. As an ork player I will say that 6 points per model and below can quickly lead to 2 hour first turns.
As for hormagaunts I think they have a weak statline, but 6" pile-in and consolidate is EPIC. It is literally one of the best special abilities in the game.
Orks are S4/T4 and has a pistol tho. Hgants being S3/T3 with no shooting, is 1pt difference really balanced tho?
Hgants should be 4pts for sure, i can see Tgants staying 4pts, but Hgants really need to be 1pt cheaper and so does goyles.
Edit: the 6" is cool sure but its not any stronger than many of special rules and it is easy countered by an extra couple inches placement, unless you get a turn 1 charge via Trygon/Pod but Genestealers will Kill the target and still have a chance to consolidate into combat anyways. Where Hgants most likely wont kill the target.
Amishprn86 wrote: Orks are S4/T4 and has a pistol tho. Hgants being S3/T3 with no shooting, is 1pt difference really balanced tho?
Hgants should be 4pts for sure, i can see Tgants staying 4pts, but Hgants really need to be 1pt cheaper and so does goyles.
Edit: the 6" is cool sure but its not any stronger than many of special rules and it is easy countered by an extra couple inches placement, unless you get a turn 1 charge via Trygon/Pod but Genestealers will Kill the target and still have a chance to consolidate into combat anyways. Where Hgants most likely wont kill the target.
I definately think Orks boyz are better than hormagaunts. I just think gaunts and termagants should be buffed rather then given a one point price reduction.
Amishprn86 wrote: Orks are S4/T4 and has a pistol tho. Hgants being S3/T3 with no shooting, is 1pt difference really balanced tho?
Hgants should be 4pts for sure, i can see Tgants staying 4pts, but Hgants really need to be 1pt cheaper and so does goyles.
Edit: the 6" is cool sure but its not any stronger than many of special rules and it is easy countered by an extra couple inches placement, unless you get a turn 1 charge via Trygon/Pod but Genestealers will Kill the target and still have a chance to consolidate into combat anyways. Where Hgants most likely wont kill the target.
I definately think Orks boyz are better than hormagaunts. I just think gaunts and termagants should be buffed rather then given a one point price reduction.
Spoletta wrote: Hormagaunts lack in the "killy" department, apart from that they work well. Frail but high mobility.
They need either S4 or Ws 3+.
They aren't supposed to be killy, they're designed to bog down the enemy with numbers and roll so many dice that statistically they should kill some guys by weight of dice. They (and gants) need to be cheaper. Having rules that benefit them in units of 20+ is nice but I rarely want to field that in units that size because they're too expensive and frail.
I can deal with frail and weak but only when the points are appropriate.
Either S4 or WS3 would be a good solution, make them somewhat of a threat in numbers. Better list synergy as well, which is likely when the codex hits.
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