I'm not clear why you wouldn't wait to do the white eyes until after the shade, if the immediate suggestion is to do them again.
The glow stuff seems... not particularly fiddly to use. Just use as a normal paint.
Though I assume like the contrast you have to go over a very light paint.
I truly hate the way the skorpekh and overlord blades look. It doesn't look right at any stage of his process. Too flat for the thin coats, and it looks really streaky. The finished effect is just ugly patches.
The glow is fine on the orbs and eyes, but big flat areas are just... no.
---
I do like the details on those models, though. Very nice.
Reading some of GW's comments on Facebook it does look like we're getting an Advanced tutorial soon, and honestly the basic Battle Ready tutorials with their Base/Shade/Technical format usually don't look too good to those with a bit of experience at painting.
Ghaz wrote: Reading some of GW's comments on Facebook it does look like we're getting an Advanced tutorial soon, and honestly the basic Battle Ready tutorials with their Base/Shade/Technical format usually don't look too good to those with a bit of experience at painting.
Spoiler:
I'm sure miniac or one of the other youtube painters will hook us up with their version of the process, and it will have twenty steps and look amazing. But for battle ready tutorials they are just trying to show what a newer painter could realistically accomplish, though I feel like they kind of missed the boat with how splotchy that green was, which feels like it was that way because the white undercoat was splotchy. It looks like the tesseract glow is already pretty thin and transparent so it can be turned into a glaze pretty easily, in which case they could have undercoated it with the lighter and darker areas and applied the technical afterwards to save themselves some effort.
I'm watching the Indomitus marines video now as well, and I'm amused that Contrast has functionally become a line of shades and washes. Its how I end up using it (well, that and as an intensifier for their duller reds and yellows), but I'm amused at the GW studio painters using it that way.
Ghaz wrote: Reading some of GW's comments on Facebook it does look like we're getting an Advanced tutorial soon, and honestly the basic Battle Ready tutorials with their Base/Shade/Technical format usually don't look too good to those with a bit of experience at painting.
Spoiler:
I'm sure miniac or one of the other youtube painters will hook us up with their version of the process, and it will have twenty steps and look amazing. But for battle ready tutorials they are just trying to show what a newer painter could realistically accomplish, though I feel like they kind of missed the boat with how splotchy that green was, which feels like it was that way because the white undercoat was splotchy. It looks like the tesseract glow is already pretty thin and transparent so it can be turned into a glaze pretty easily, in which case they could have undercoated it with the lighter and darker areas and applied the technical afterwards to save themselves some effort.
Which wouldn't make it a Battle Ready tutorial. That's why I'm waiting for the Advanced tutorial before I decide to see what I can come up with using thinned Warp Lightning over a layered metal base.
Which wouldn't make it a Battle Ready tutorial. That's why I'm waiting for the Advanced tutorial before I decide to see what I can come up with using thinned Warp Lightning over a layered metal base.
That's what I use on my necron power weapons, build up a nice layered metal look, then wash it with bieltan green, finally touch it up with hex wraith flames to give the power field some distortions.
Ghaz wrote: Hopefully they'll have an Advanced tutorial later in the week, because the results from the new Tesseract Glow paint is a bit disappointing in this video...
They didn't really explain what it does.
That said, and correct me if I'm wrong, the new brass spray is a very silvery brass, almost like a washed out brass. Kind of like if you mixed silver and gold paint together. I quite like that look.
punisher357 wrote: Looks like tesla immortals may be getting nerfed. All the admech tesla type weapons were changed to only generate hits on unmodified rolls of a six
Voss wrote: I'm watching the Indomitus marines video now as well, and I'm amused that Contrast has functionally become a line of shades and washes. Its how I end up using it (well, that and as an intensifier for their duller reds and yellows), but I'm amused at the GW studio painters using it that way.
It makes sense, because it's actually quite unforgiving if used as a main paint. You need to work all at once with a colour, and you can't be messy because you can't easily fix mistakes. I liked for base coats or things like a treeman, but I wouldn't use it for most things.
Voss wrote: I'm watching the Indomitus marines video now as well, and I'm amused that Contrast has functionally become a line of shades and washes. Its how I end up using it (well, that and as an intensifier for their duller reds and yellows), but I'm amused at the GW studio painters using it that way.
It makes sense, because it's actually quite unforgiving if used as a main paint. You need to work all at once with a colour, and you can't be messy because you can't easily fix mistakes. I liked for base coats or things like a treeman, but I wouldn't use it for most things.
I don't think I would use it for Necrons, I'll give you, but Contrast allowed me to get my space marines (which are much more boring individual models, I'll give you) from sprue to battle ready in a matter of weeks, as a really weak painter.
I am of the opinion (likely unpopular) that Contrast is best suited for almost uniform colours across very similar low-detail (relatively speaking) models, of which first wave Primaris are the best example.
H.B.M.C. wrote: That said, and correct me if I'm wrong, the new brass spray is a very silvery brass, almost like a washed out brass. Kind of like if you mixed silver and gold paint together. I quite like that look.
The Runelord Brass Spray and the Runelord Brass Base paints should be (nearly) identical to the existing Runelord Brass Layer paint which seems like it's been pulled from sale. I don't have the color, but from pics on the internet it should look something like this...
Voss wrote: I'm watching the Indomitus marines video now as well, and I'm amused that Contrast has functionally become a line of shades and washes. Its how I end up using it (well, that and as an intensifier for their duller reds and yellows), but I'm amused at the GW studio painters using it that way.
It makes sense, because it's actually quite unforgiving if used as a main paint. You need to work all at once with a colour, and you can't be messy because you can't easily fix mistakes. I liked for base coats or things like a treeman, but I wouldn't use it for most things.
Yeah, my early test models with it put me off using it as a main paint. Tried a few Iyanden test schemes, always ended up with orange patches in the oddest places, no matter how much I tried to 'move paint around to prevent pooling.' And I mean odd as raised surfaces areas, not recesses.
And with larger models, like space marines, the green I tried routinely ended up streaky and uneven over their 'recommended' grey seer.
But using BA Red contrast on test models for my Novokh warriors? It took all the GW red bases to lovely shades- I had a hard time settling on a main one (and may use a small variety of base colors just to vary the look of units a bit)
The tesseract glow seems good if you're doing things like eyes and cables, but it really does look dreadful on those weapons. I'll hold out hope that they make an orange one.
So, trying to see how we can implement the new stuff into our army I had an idea. Take a Skorpekh Lord and 2 units of the Skorpekh destroyers. Take the VoD on the Lord and run a nightscythe. You'll have 3 heavy hitting units either in your opponents face or threatening a backfield obj turn 1.
On that topic, which of our current relics would pair well with the new characters, if any?
Kharne the Befriender wrote: The tesseract glow seems good if you're doing things like eyes and cables, but it really does look dreadful on those weapons. I'll hold out hope that they make an orange one.
So, trying to see how we can implement the new stuff into our army I had an idea. Take a Skorpekh Lord and 2 units of the Skorpekh destroyers. Take the VoD on the Lord and run a nightscythe. You'll have 3 heavy hitting units either in your opponents face or threatening a backfield obj turn 1.
On that topic, which of our current relics would pair well with the new characters, if any?
I've seen a battle report from Tabletop Titans where the Skorpekh Lord have the Sempiternal Weave relic and Enduring Will warlord trait. Quite sturdy.
I won't play Sautekh for now, so i reread all other dynasties relics, and i feel, if you play nihilakh, that Timesplinter Cloak on a Skorpekh Lord with Enduring Will make him very tough, and i feel that FnP 5+ is more versatile the T7 W7 Sempiternal Weave provide.
Nihilakh is good with DDA, and offer good tanking tricks with Wraiths/Lychguard with Shield. I probably won't play a game before our Codex arrive though, but if i do, i'll probably try Nihilkah.
Kharne the Befriender wrote: The tesseract glow seems good if you're doing things like eyes and cables, but it really does look dreadful on those weapons. I'll hold out hope that they make an orange one.
So, trying to see how we can implement the new stuff into our army I had an idea. Take a Skorpekh Lord and 2 units of the Skorpekh destroyers. Take the VoD on the Lord and run a nightscythe. You'll have 3 heavy hitting units either in your opponents face or threatening a backfield obj turn 1.
On that topic, which of our current relics would pair well with the new characters, if any?
I've seen a battle report from Tabletop Titans where the Skorpekh Lord have the Sempiternal Weave relic and Enduring Will warlord trait. Quite sturdy.
I won't play Sautekh for now, so i reread all other dynasties relics, and i feel, if you play nihilakh, that Timesplinter Cloak on a Skorpekh Lord with Enduring Will make him very tough, and i feel that FnP 5+ is more versatile the T7 W7 Sempiternal Weave provide.
If you're already playing Nihilakh then yeah, Timesplinter is the way to go. Either way, you can turn him into a little weapon that it annoyingly tough to kill (and can get back up on a 4+ once). More killy than the old destroyer lord, but not quite as hard to drop.
Hoping there will be a Relic version of his weapon that doesn't have the bloody -1 to hit in the new book though.
Voss wrote: Yeah. That -1 annoys me. Particularly with the plasmacyte buffs, the normal Skorpekhs can hit that same profile with the big blade.
Its also a weird thing with a model that innately rerolls 1s. Rolling a 2 is the worst result.
Flat Damage 3 usually comes with -1 to hit on characters (unless relics). The 'squad leader' of the Skorpekh Destroyers is quite incredible under the plasmacyte buff having almost the same damage output as the Skorpekh Lord. I doubt we will be able to have more than one model with a Reap Blade in a squad of Skorpekh in the codex though.
Voss wrote: Yeah. That -1 annoys me. Particularly with the plasmacyte buffs, the normal Skorpekhs can hit that same profile with the big blade.
Its also a weird thing with a model that innately rerolls 1s. Rolling a 2 is the worst result.
Flat Damage 3 usually comes with -1 to hit on characters (unless relics). The 'squad leader' of the Skorpekh Destroyers is quite incredible under the plasmacyte buff having almost the same damage output as the Skorpekh Lord. I doubt we will be able to have more than one model with a Reap Blade in a squad of Skorpekh in the codex though.
I'm expecting 1 in every 3 models can have one due to the easy to build, with hopefully up to 6 model squads. The buff does come with a cost. so I think that balances out if you have multiple reap-blades.
Yeah, I'm thinking 1 reap-blade for every 3 models. Seems like a good fit. Going heavy reap may seem powerful, but I'm going to hazard that its going to be an expensive option, and having everyone hitting with -1 modifiers seems bad.
Also, the 3 damage is wasted against most infantry, so if you engage anything that's not a vehicle you're just wasting time. Going for a mix of weapons seems to be the more efficient option, as you can still take on infantry while still being a threat to larger units.
As for dynasties, the new units really look great for a novokh build. The units we've seen so far seem to be geared towards aggression, where you want to get close and push the advantage. Novokh is designed for that sort of play style. Rerolls to hit would make the Skorpekh units truly terrifying and would help mitigate the accuracy debuff for reap-blades (so if you want to run all reap, go novokh), and it would even help gauss reapers, as if you can follow up with a charge after a salvo you can deal some nice damage.
I'm holding off list building entirely. Dynasties might change rules - I'd say given the Space Marine overhaul, there's a very strong chance they become totally different - and the list of wargear might change dramatically. I mean, we don't even know what wargear a plasmancer or skorpekh lord might have, so it's hard to try and figure out any combos. I also suspect they could do a Rowboat Girlyman "oh wow, whoops, this model is massively undercosted and provides an incredibly good aura, no-one spotted this in testing, by the way that's £65 please and thank you" with the Silent King, and if they do then that'll be auto-include. Likewise, if the meta shapes up in such a way that vehicles get much stronger and the Void Dragon interacts with them like Anrakyr, it'll also be a big consideration. Or all the new models could be terrible. Or you might want to spam Immortals because RP is back to being a 5+ FNP thing again and they're suddenly really strong with a cryptek. It's just a bit hard to tell, and there's not enough information to speculate on. I mean, if any of the new units is a more cost effective anti-tank, and we're really desperate for that so I suspect they might be, then it'll fundamentally change every list. We even know that there's a model from behind the monolith which we have no idea about yet, which might be the replacement for flayed ones which has been rumours for ages - at which point, if it's as durable as the other tripods and can deploy forwards, that'll change any list built around melee too. It's just way too early to tell.
For now, I think we're even weaker than before, as the Doom Scythe stratagem is practically unusable for us as you can only fit a maximum of 2 flyers in any of the detachments in 9th. That's a massive blow and means to even consider old lists, you have to pay 2 CP to get the extra slot back, or try and make do without the one tool that made the army work against some armies. You still want the Deceiver, Doomsday Arks, usually Imotekh, etc. If anyone has any success, let us know, but otherwise I'm not going to even bother trying to make something work until the new book comes out.
I know its unlikely but considering the Gauss stick is Ap -1 and bolt rifles are just gauss weapons +6" im hoping they might make our weaponry have the new ability that Scarabs have in the new codex. I admit is really unlikely but it would bring a lot of flavour back to gauss being this weird esoteric energy rather then now where its just oh yeah you can ignore a bit of armour with it
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Egyptian Space Zombie wrote: I put together my transcendent ctan in anticipation for 9th. Whoever designed that whole kit is a sadist.
I've got 3 that I've acquired via Ebay and of the 2 I had to make up yeah I concur with you, its a weird kit and I almost messed up my 2nd C'Tan
Was browsing the Necron subreddit when I came across this absolute gem for the Canoptek Reanimator.
I've already started brainstorming a few ideas for when I get mine but I was wondering if any fellow Crypteks here have thought of this before and if so, how do you plan on converting yours?
I've already started brainstorming a few ideas for when I get mine but I was wondering if any fellow Crypteks here have thought of this before and if so, how do you plan on converting yours?
Agree on this, it's awesome. Will attempt the conversion, but need the bits in hand before I can say how I will do it
Egyptian Space Zombie wrote: I put together my transcendent ctan in anticipation for 9th. Whoever designed that whole kit is a sadist.
Never owned one, what's so bad about it?
The C'Tan itself breaks if you look at it the wrong way. Mine was broken in box, and it broke another 3 times during assembly. It's fine now, but whoever decided to make a model out of nothing but small, breakable tentacles, and then force you to buy a superheavy to get it, wasn't really thinking. The Obelisk requires sawing to put together and the contact points for the weird tentacles at the bottom aren't really there. If you build the Vault, that has it's own issues since it's being held together by a few thin parts as well. It also has the footprint of 2 knights, without the durability or easy magnetization. You can tell it's an older kit.
Aza'Gorod wrote: So next Saturday GW are revealing more models according to there latest post. Should be good to get more info on whats to come
Yeah, hopefully it's some good Necron news. I'm predicting it may be the announcement of the starter set or whatever form the DDS and Lokhust are going to be coming in since they are easy to build. Will probably come with more information about the Marine ATV and Firestrike.
We also know that we are getting a Primaris Landspeeder and Predator at some point too as well.
Thanks folks for the explanation, never owned the kit (haven't played Necrons since 4th) and wasn't aware it was such a pain.
Aza'Gorod wrote: So next Saturday GW are revealing more models according to there latest post. Should be good to get more info on whats to come
I'm really hoping for Flayed Ones - decided on Maynarkh for my 9thcrons and it wouldn't be fluffy without a giant pack of flayed skin wearing nutters. Reveals though might include e.g. the Monolith (which has been shown but not "revealed") or that weird Destroyer thing in the background of the army picture:
Marshal Loss wrote: Thanks folks for the explanation, never owned the kit (haven't played Necrons since 4th) and wasn't aware it was such a pain.
Aza'Gorod wrote: So next Saturday GW are revealing more models according to there latest post. Should be good to get more info on whats to come
I'm really hoping for Flayed Ones - decided on Maynarkh for my 9thcrons and it wouldn't be fluffy without a giant pack of flayed skin wearing nutters. Reveals though might include e.g. the Monolith (which has been shown but not "revealed") or that weird Destroyer thing in the background of the army picture:
Spoiler:
I think the new flayed ones are gonna be much better with the ability to outflank now.
Also I actually have a theory that the new model of mentioned is a new Pariah type model. Not a pariah like we had before in looks but something to stop psychic powers with those weird orb things on its back maybe?? though I could be completely wrong lol so don't pay that much attention to my theory
Very plausible! There have certainly been crazier redesigns. I'd probably guess at something blackstone themed/which uses blackstone if we get a dedicated an anti-psyker unit. That being said, if Pariahs do return I hope they go back to the oldschool body horror lore, being made out of folks and all, although I expect you're right and any prospective Pariahs would be unrecognisable to their former incarnation in order to differentiate the unit from Lychguard.
Aza'Gorod wrote: So next Saturday GW are revealing more models according to there latest post. Should be good to get more info on whats to come
Yeah, hopefully it's some good Necron news. I'm predicting it may be the announcement of the starter set or whatever form the DDS and Lokhust are going to be coming in since they are easy to build. Will probably come with more information about the Marine ATV and Firestrike.
We also know that we are getting a Primaris Landspeeder and Predator at some point too as well.
I'm expecting the variant behind the monolith, the monolith itself and hopefully something on the new destroyer (and what happens to the other destroyers- replaced or continue on)
And thats it.
Edit: and the taller walker
I'm fearing a pile of primaris stuff, including half-a-dozen more individual characters on bikes, with jet packs, etc.
Aza'Gorod wrote: So next Saturday GW are revealing more models according to there latest post. Should be good to get more info on whats to come
Yeah, hopefully it's some good Necron news. I'm predicting it may be the announcement of the starter set or whatever form the DDS and Lokhust are going to be coming in since they are easy to build. Will probably come with more information about the Marine ATV and Firestrike.
We also know that we are getting a Primaris Landspeeder and Predator at some point too as well.
I'm expecting the variant behind the monolith, the monolith itself and hopefully something on the new destroyer (and what happens to the other destroyers- replaced or continue on)
And thats it.
Edit: and the taller walker
I'm fearing a pile of primaris stuff, including half-a-dozen more individual characters on bikes, with jet packs, etc.
Yeah, it would be cool to get some info about the model behind the monolith, guessing that's the 3rd destroyer cult type that was alluded to.
I'd like to see some info about how the Monolith is changing, but If anything we'll probably only get some snippets.
Aza'Gorod wrote: So next Saturday GW are revealing more models according to there latest post. Should be good to get more info on whats to come
Yeah, hopefully it's some good Necron news. I'm predicting it may be the announcement of the starter set or whatever form the DDS and Lokhust are going to be coming in since they are easy to build. Will probably come with more information about the Marine ATV and Firestrike.
We also know that we are getting a Primaris Landspeeder and Predator at some point too as well.
We know this, how? I've not seen anything about those two models anywhere. Google search turned up nothing.
Aza'Gorod wrote: So next Saturday GW are revealing more models according to there latest post. Should be good to get more info on whats to come
Yeah, hopefully it's some good Necron news. I'm predicting it may be the announcement of the starter set or whatever form the DDS and Lokhust are going to be coming in since they are easy to build. Will probably come with more information about the Marine ATV and Firestrike.
We also know that we are getting a Primaris Landspeeder and Predator at some point too as well.
We know this, how? I've not seen anything about those two models anywhere. Google search turned up nothing.
Not a replacement. He's talking about the several-month-old pic (last year?) of various primaris models. There was something vaguely light tank shaped (compared to the Repulsors) and Land Speeder shaped
Aza'Gorod wrote: So next Saturday GW are revealing more models according to there latest post. Should be good to get more info on whats to come
Yeah, hopefully it's some good Necron news. I'm predicting it may be the announcement of the starter set or whatever form the DDS and Lokhust are going to be coming in since they are easy to build. Will probably come with more information about the Marine ATV and Firestrike.
We also know that we are getting a Primaris Landspeeder and Predator at some point too as well.
We know this, how? I've not seen anything about those two models anywhere. Google search turned up nothing.
Not a replacement. He's talking about the several-month-old pic (last year?) of various primaris models. There was something vaguely light tank shaped (compared to the Repulsors) and Land Speeder shaped
I remember, the tank one was most likely the impulsor and the land speeder was probably the buggy.
Aza'Gorod wrote: So next Saturday GW are revealing more models according to there latest post. Should be good to get more info on whats to come
Yeah, hopefully it's some good Necron news. I'm predicting it may be the announcement of the starter set or whatever form the DDS and Lokhust are going to be coming in since they are easy to build. Will probably come with more information about the Marine ATV and Firestrike.
We also know that we are getting a Primaris Landspeeder and Predator at some point too as well.
I'm expecting the variant behind the monolith, the monolith itself and hopefully something on the new destroyer (and what happens to the other destroyers- replaced or continue on)
And thats it.
Edit: and the taller walker
I'm fearing a pile of primaris stuff, including half-a-dozen more individual characters on bikes, with jet packs, etc.
I still think we are yet to get a normal destroyer model upgraded though since the new Lokhust heavy destroyer has a Gauss destructor not heavy gauss cannon i and curious to what weapon a Lokhusr destroyer is gonna have.
Also i'm opeful our other special characters are gonna get the Szeras treatment, i can't see them being happy with a "lowly" cryptek get a body upgrade and not them lol
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Marshal Loss wrote: Very plausible! There have certainly been crazier redesigns. I'd probably guess at something blackstone themed/which uses blackstone if we get a dedicated an anti-psyker unit. That being said, if Pariahs do return I hope they go back to the oldschool body horror lore, being made out of folks and all, although I expect you're right and any prospective Pariahs would be unrecognisable to their former incarnation in order to differentiate the unit from Lychguard.
I think its mentioned in some lorr somewhere that szeras like to disect sentient beings and see how the y work uncluding how he noticed that the human brain is resistant to the arp or something so maybe a new Pariah might have a psychic blank brain plugged into it somehere? I could also see it being like the Cryptothralls so Canoptek keyword in addition to normal words
I think since 9th edition is going to be about mobbing the center objectives. Mephrit, Nihilahk, and Novohk are going to be much more spicy than they were in 8th.
That, and, Immortals may have a reason to take Gauss blasters since CQC is going to be more common.
Aza'Gorod wrote: So next Saturday GW are revealing more models according to there latest post. Should be good to get more info on whats to come
Yeah, hopefully it's some good Necron news. I'm predicting it may be the announcement of the starter set or whatever form the DDS and Lokhust are going to be coming in since they are easy to build. Will probably come with more information about the Marine ATV and Firestrike.
We also know that we are getting a Primaris Landspeeder and Predator at some point too as well.
We know this, how? I've not seen anything about those two models anywhere. Google search turned up nothing.
Not a replacement. He's talking about the several-month-old pic (last year?) of various primaris models. There was something vaguely light tank shaped (compared to the Repulsors) and Land Speeder shaped
I remember, the tank one was most likely the impulsor and the land speeder was probably the buggy.
Nah, this is some new variant. It looks like a mix between a predator and Impulsor.
iGuy91 wrote: I think since 9th edition is going to be about mobbing the center objectives. Mephrit, Nihilahk, and Novohk are going to be much more spicy than they were in 8th.
That, and, Immortals may have a reason to take Gauss blasters since CQC is going to be more common.
Plus the codex may hit tesla with the nerf that AdMech got in their FAQ- only unmodified 6s trigger the special effect.
iGuy91 wrote: I think since 9th edition is going to be about mobbing the center objectives. Mephrit, Nihilahk, and Novohk are going to be much more spicy than they were in 8th.
That, and, Immortals may have a reason to take Gauss blasters since CQC is going to be more common.
Plus the codex may hit tesla with the nerf that AdMech got in their FAQ- only unmodified 6s trigger the special effect.
I really hope we don't get that nerf, but I think we will. The problem is it will impact a lot of our vehicles in addition to tomb blades and immortals.
iGuy91 wrote: I think since 9th edition is going to be about mobbing the center objectives. Mephrit, Nihilahk, and Novohk are going to be much more spicy than they were in 8th.
That, and, Immortals may have a reason to take Gauss blasters since CQC is going to be more common.
Plus the codex may hit tesla with the nerf that AdMech got in their FAQ- only unmodified 6s trigger the special effect.
I really hope we don't get that nerf, but I think we will. The problem is it will impact a lot of our vehicles in addition to tomb blades and immortals.
You mean vehicles with tesla ? How does that impact them ? Anni barges were crap, no one played them. Also, vehicles couldnt be buffed by MWBD. Tomb blades also couldnt be buffed by MWBD. They will be in a bad spot, because they cant shoot after falling back.
iGuy91 wrote: I think since 9th edition is going to be about mobbing the center objectives. Mephrit, Nihilahk, and Novohk are going to be much more spicy than they were in 8th.
That, and, Immortals may have a reason to take Gauss blasters since CQC is going to be more common.
Plus the codex may hit tesla with the nerf that AdMech got in their FAQ- only unmodified 6s trigger the special effect.
I really hope we don't get that nerf, but I think we will. The problem is it will impact a lot of our vehicles in addition to tomb blades and immortals.
I'm about 99% certain we will get that nerf. It's just the way the game seems to be going for these sort of bonus effects. I don't think it'll hurt our tesla-equipped vehicles at all since pretty much all of them are terrible right now so I'd hope GW would do something about the bad stats on all the higher-strength tesla weapons. Damage 2 might be a good place to start as I think, outside of the new character-specific relic blaster, Necrons don't have much (or any?) ranged D2 weaponry. That might at least give things like Annihilation Barges a niche.
Aza'Gorod wrote: So next Saturday GW are revealing more models according to there latest post. Should be good to get more info on whats to come
Yeah, hopefully it's some good Necron news. I'm predicting it may be the announcement of the starter set or whatever form the DDS and Lokhust are going to be coming in since they are easy to build. Will probably come with more information about the Marine ATV and Firestrike.
We also know that we are getting a Primaris Landspeeder and Predator at some point too as well.
We know this, how? I've not seen anything about those two models anywhere. Google search turned up nothing.
Not a replacement. He's talking about the several-month-old pic (last year?) of various primaris models. There was something vaguely light tank shaped (compared to the Repulsors) and Land Speeder shaped
I remember, the tank one was most likely the impulsor and the land speeder was probably the buggy.
Nah, this is some new variant. It looks like a mix between a predator and Impulsor.
Well I'll be, I missed this pic? It was last year!?
The "Repulsor Land Speeder" is something we still havent got officially yet, everything else is now unveiled
So, I am hopeful (probably niaively so) that this monstrosity is the last thing for Primaris for a while, since the turret, quad bike, and bunker were all completely off the cuff as far as I was aware
just so happens that this beast is the only mystery thing, mirrored with the dude skulking behind the monolith in our big picture.
I kinda want that to be all for the new stuff for both crons and marines, because my wallet's already crying enough as it is.
I don't think so. It has some similarities, but there is also a ton of differences. This looks to be a new predator type, likely the primaris version of it.
Is there a possibility of a necron "monster mash" kind of list? I haven't kept up with the rumours, just curious if a list with all the monsters, gods, etc would be viable.
Basically Nidzilla, but nids currently are terrible and can't do it.
punisher357 wrote: With what? C'tan, spiders, doom stalker, and canoptek reanimators? Don't think that's going to work
Yeah...definitely not seeing it. C'Tan are fine, but limited, the Triarch Stalker looks good but Spyders are still terrible and the new Canoptek Reanimator seems pretty mediocre right now and we know nothing about the Doom Stalker variant. I just don't see how a list of some of the waekest monsters in the game would work. Pretty much all of them are utility or support pieces. Even the Triarch Stalker is only really good because of the buff it gives to other units. As a gun platform alone it's pretty overpriced.
Stumbled upon this video on YouTube. It looks like Tesseract Glow will give some good results over what appears to be a metallic base (starting at about the 9:30 mark):
Not sure how long it's going to be relevant, but it's a nice analysis, that kind of lines up how I'm feeling. Right now we're not top tier, but we are pretty solidly middle of the pack compared to before.
Not sure how long it's going to be relevant, but it's a nice analysis, that kind of lines up how I'm feeling. Right now we're not top tier, but we are pretty solidly middle of the pack compared to before.
I liked it as well, though any review of necrons in 9th is incomplete without our codex.
Something that I would like to see (but doubt very very much) is for hyperspace swords to give our lychguard +1 attack and for warscythes to hit harder.
One of the main reason I dont like CC with necrons is our number of attacks. For the points our dedicated CC costs (Lychguard, praetorians, wraiths etc) I've never felt like they have the attacks to stop themselves getting tarpitted or to cleanly cut through an enemy unit . I understand that they've had RP (except the wraiths unless you spend CP) but especially in the edition with the 5 turns limit our number of attacks isn't great.
Just my thought's on our CC capability and of course the new skorpekh destroyers are really good in CC and cryptothralls can get 6 attacks each without much effort which is great for chaff killing (im hoping in the codex they increase the squad size of these guys), so I'm hopeful when our codex drops we see some love for our old CC units
Not sure how long it's going to be relevant, but it's a nice analysis, that kind of lines up how I'm feeling. Right now we're not top tier, but we are pretty solidly middle of the pack compared to before.
I liked it as well, though any review of necrons in 9th is incomplete without our codex.
You analyze what you have available. No point sayign "but codex" when a) it's not here b) we have no idea when it comes c) people are going to play 9th ed necrons without new codex for forseaable future d) we have no idea what codex is like. With GW it could also be massive nerf and we are left hoping "if only they hadn't released that codex! Now we are going to suck for years"
Wouldn't go around buying particle caster bits yet. No idea what GW does with that in codex. It's possible they keep that stupid "optional" upgrade system but maybe they don't. But with codex here in month or two likely wouldn't rush to get those.
Not sure how long it's going to be relevant, but it's a nice analysis, that kind of lines up how I'm feeling. Right now we're not top tier, but we are pretty solidly middle of the pack compared to before.
I liked it as well, though any review of necrons in 9th is incomplete without our codex.
You analyze what you have available. No point sayign "but codex" when a) it's not here b) we have no idea when it comes c) people are going to play 9th ed necrons without new codex for forseaable future d) we have no idea what codex is like. With GW it could also be massive nerf and we are left hoping "if only they hadn't released that codex! Now we are going to suck for years"
LOL, we already had that codex, it would be difficult for them to unintentionally write a worse codex. If our codex isn't in the foreseeable future I'm not sure what counts as the foreseeable future. The space marine codex was what a month and a half after the release of 8th ed, and I think that's about when we'll get ours. That's why necrons are not freaking out about CA 2020, most us won't even get a game in with those point values before the codex is released. The article is about 8th ed necrons in 9th ed, a combination that's not going to see much table time in a world gone mad, and by the time the world sorts itself we'll have a 9th ed codex. I love goonhammer, and the article is well written, but with the tournament scene dead, I don't think the analysis in it going to apply to many people.
tneva82 wrote: Wouldn't go around buying particle caster bits yet. No idea what GW does with that in codex. It's possible they keep that stupid "optional" upgrade system but maybe they don't. But with codex here in month or two likely wouldn't rush to get those.
Not that we can, anyway. The sum total of the available Necron kits is Szeras. Even the heavy destroyer and destroyer lord upgrade kits are gone now.
Its a temporary situation, but I still find it somewhat amusing. With all the new releases coming, getting the old stuff back in stock should be a priority, just to pick up tag-along sales.
Aza'Gorod wrote: To be honest I'm worried the destroyer lord is gonna get squatted, the Skorpekh lord is just so much better then he is
Not yet. Models we know are getting replaced are gone (warriors, monolith), destroyers and upgrade kits (including the lord) are simply 'temporarily out of stock' like everything else. Or possibly still present in other regions.
Either way, they still seem to be carrying on.
Grimgold wrote: it would be difficult for them to unintentionally write a worse codex
This is not something I would bet on
Aza'Gorod wrote: To be honest I'm worried the destroyer lord is gonna get squatted, the Skorpekh lord is just so much better then he is
I think he probably will be squatted/moved to legends as a "Lokhust Destroyer Lord", but who knows. They seem to be playing pretty hard into the "Destroyer Cult" angle though so fingers crossed
At this point, I’m just hoping we’re not the literal worst codex in the game. My expectations of anything more died with the points reveal, because it looks like the Indomitus stuff has all the same problems we ever had - support unit too squishy, melee units which hit on 3+, S7 everything, random damage AT, no invulns for non-characters, etc etc. But, who knows, it could be that the monolith is broken and everyone takes 3, literally shoving a wall up a table just like we did before the 5e codex. Otherwise, I expect deathmarks will still have glorified bolsters and be bad, Lychguard probably won’t be seen in favour of Skorptekhs, and Spyders will be too fragile still, so whatever. Hopefully the Void Dragon will be pretty good as it’s one of my favourite models they’ve ever shown.
Voss wrote: Still feel the way I did after the Warhammer video. Its fine on small areas, but it looks nasty on flat surfaces. Very splodgy.
Like it for details though.
The Mighty Lancer guy did have a point though, a yellow/orange paint that works the same way would be amazing.
I think one of the problems with the Sword 'n' Steele video was that she was using the Contrast 'one thick coat' method (which doesn't work for Contrast anyway).
Voss wrote: Still feel the way I did after the Warhammer video. Its fine on small areas, but it looks nasty on flat surfaces. Very splodgy.
Like it for details though.
The Mighty Lancer guy did have a point though, a yellow/orange paint that works the same way would be amazing.
I think one of the problems with the Sword 'n' Steele video was that she was using the Contrast 'one thick coat' method (which doesn't work for Contrast anyway).
Yeah. I hadn't actually watched that one when I commented- I was just focused on the skorpekh blades in the ML video. I liked the 'bulbs' on the scarabs, and it seems fine for eyes and the like.
But I can't bring myself to paint that way, anyway, so didn't find the SnS video helpful for what the paint can do.
Eyjio wrote: At this point, I’m just hoping we’re not the literal worst codex in the game. My expectations of anything more died with the points reveal, because it looks like the Indomitus stuff has all the same problems we ever had - support unit too squishy, melee units which hit on 3+, S7 everything, random damage AT, no invulns for non-characters, etc etc. But, who knows, it could be that the monolith is broken and everyone takes 3, literally shoving a wall up a table just like we did before the 5e codex. Otherwise, I expect deathmarks will still have glorified bolsters and be bad, Lychguard probably won’t be seen in favour of Skorptekhs, and Spyders will be too fragile still, so whatever. Hopefully the Void Dragon will be pretty good as it’s one of my favourite models they’ve ever shown.
Don't discount lychguard just yet. In terms of objective holding the sword and board guys are superior in durability with the 4++ and models for wounds and RP
Codex: Necrons, meanwhile, brings the Necrons to life in terrifying splendour and tactical depth never before seen for the Faction. Rules have been fundamentally reworked to diversify the army and offer a vast range of potential strategies. Want to play a close-combat Necron force? A surging tide of Canoptek critters? A short-ranged incursion force popping out of portals to annihilate everything? The choice is yours. New units like the Shard of the Void Dragon and the Silent King himself give you new and terrifying ways to reconquer the galaxy, while rules for custom dynasties and the legendary brass-armoured Szarekhan Dynasty allow for even more choice and freedom. Take your army on Crusade and things get even crazier as your Necrons grow and change, with Overlords gaining ever-longer Dynastic Epithets (yes, really – there’s a random table) or succumbing to the horror of the Destroyer curse…
Did anyone else catch these dynasty codes flashing by? Some are really insane. Bit hard to read, but Nephrekh gives a 6++, Nihilakh seems to grant army wide Objective Secured, Szarekhan have a 5++ against mortal wounds, etc. Also, Nihilakh has the interesting phrase "When the Protocol of the Eternal Guardian becomes active for your army, if every unit in your army (excluding Dynastic Agent and C'tan Shard units) has this code, you can select both of that command protocol's directives instead of just one" - are we getting doctrine equivalents?! Also interesting it's talking about armies, not detachments, I wonder if the new Space Marines will follow suit.
Well, optimism for being good just went through the roof, now I'm a bit worried we'll be overtuned! I can't believe how strong some of this sounds, especially compared to what I was expecting.
Eyjio wrote: Did anyone else catch these dynasty codes flashing by? Some are really insane. Bit hard to read, but Nephrekh gives a 6++, Nihilakh seems to grant army wide Objective Secured, Szarekhan have a 5++ against mortal wounds, etc. Also, Nihilakh has the interesting phrase "When the Protocol of the Eternal Guardian becomes active for your army, if every unit in your army (excluding Dynastic Agent and C'tan Shard units) has this code, you can select both of that command protocol's directives instead of just one" - are we getting doctrine equivalents?! Also interesting it's talking about armies, not detachments, I wonder if the new Space Marines will follow suit.
Well, optimism for being good just went through the roof, now I'm a bit worried we'll be overtuned! I can't believe how strong some of this sounds, especially compared to what I was expecting.
I'll take being overtuned for a bit than being underpowered.
The Mephrit trait looks like it adds range to weapons as well, but that's the only one I can read.
Eyjio wrote: Did anyone else catch these dynasty codes flashing by? Some are really insane. Bit hard to read, but Nephrekh gives a 6++, Nihilakh seems to grant army wide Objective Secured, Szarekhan have a 5++ against mortal wounds, etc. Also, Nihilakh has the interesting phrase "When the Protocol of the Eternal Guardian becomes active for your army, if every unit in your army (excluding Dynastic Agent and C'tan Shard units) has this code, you can select both of that command protocol's directives instead of just one" - are we getting doctrine equivalents?! Also interesting it's talking about armies, not detachments, I wonder if the new Space Marines will follow suit.
Well, optimism for being good just went through the roof, now I'm a bit worried we'll be overtuned! I can't believe how strong some of this sounds, especially compared to what I was expecting.
I'll take being overtuned for a bit than being underpowered.
The Mephrit trait looks like it adds range to weapons as well, but that's the only one I can read.
Mephrit:
+3" to all ranged weapons except Pistols
Additional -1 AP for half range
Nephrek
6++
Automatic 6" Run with semiFly as of now
SemiFly when disengaging
Novokh
+1 to Charges
Additional -1 AP first turn of combat
Nihilakh
Objective secured (every model counts as 2 if you already have it)
AP -1 becomes AP 0
Szarekhan
5+++ against Mortal Wounds
Each time an unit shoots or fight, reroll 1 wound roll
Sautekh
Reroll Morale
Rapid Fire at 18"
Necrons also have gained a new Faction Wide Rule (Protocols with 2 directives) that is boosted by mono Dynasty armies (you can have both the directives of a specific Protocol if your entire army is comprised of a single Dynasty)
Sasori wrote: I'll take being overtuned for a bit than being underpowered.
The Mephrit trait looks like it adds range to weapons as well, but that's the only one I can read.
Agreed, if it's too strong we'll get the nerf bat like SM, but it's rare to get significant buffs.
It's hard to read the top ones, but I think I can make out all of Nephrekh:
* Models with this code have a 6+ invulnerable save.
* Each time a unit with this code Advances, it can translocate. If it does, do not make an Advance roll for it. Instead, until the end of the phase, add 6" to the Move characteristic of models in that unit. If a unit translocates, until the end of the turn, models in that unit cannot shoot.
* Each time a unit with this code Falls Back or translocates, until the end of the phase, models in that unit can move across models and terrain as if they were not there
* When the Protocol of the Sudden Storm (pg 31) becomes active for your army, if every unit in your army (excluding Dynastic Agent and C'tan Shard units) has this code, you can select both of that command protocol's directives instead of just one.
So, an interesting change to them. You can either advance as normal, or get the 6" buff but be totally unable to shoot - a minor nerf. But then you also get a 6++ on everything, which is great. Also, it looks like every dynasty gets some variant of that point at the bottom, so that's fun.
Eyjio wrote: Did anyone else catch these dynasty codes flashing by? Some are really insane. Bit hard to read, but Nephrekh gives a 6++, Nihilakh seems to grant army wide Objective Secured, Szarekhan have a 5++ against mortal wounds, etc. Also, Nihilakh has the interesting phrase "When the Protocol of the Eternal Guardian becomes active for your army, if every unit in your army (excluding Dynastic Agent and C'tan Shard units) has this code, you can select both of that command protocol's directives instead of just one" - are we getting doctrine equivalents?! Also interesting it's talking about armies, not detachments, I wonder if the new Space Marines will follow suit.
Well, optimism for being good just went through the roof, now I'm a bit worried we'll be overtuned! I can't believe how strong some of this sounds, especially compared to what I was expecting.
I'll take being overtuned for a bit than being underpowered.
The Mephrit trait looks like it adds range to weapons as well, but that's the only one I can read.
Mephrit:
+3" to all ranged weapons except Pistols
Additional -1 AP for half range
Nephrek
6++
Automatic 6" Run with semiFly as of now
SemiFly when disengaging
Novokh
+1 to Charges
Additional -1 AP first turn of combat
Nihilakh
Objective secured (every model counts as 2 if you already have it)
AP -1 becomes AP 0
Szarekhan
5+++ against Mortal Wounds
Each time an unit shoots or fight, reroll 1 wound roll
Sautekh
Reroll Morale
Rapid Fire at 18"
Necrons also have gained a new Faction Wide Rule (Protocols with 2 directives) that is boosted by mono Dynasty armies (you can have both the directives of a specific Protocol if your entire army is comprised of a single Dynasty)
Damn, good job.
These all look great.
Someone in the Necron Discord pointed this out: A note on Nephrekh, you choose to advance or translocate, translocate is auto 6" advance and can ignore terrain and models, but cannot shoot after
Automatically Appended Next Post: Someone Transcribed the full text here:
MEPHRIT: SOLAR FURY
Add 3" to the range characteristic of ranged weapons(excluding something) that models with this code are equipped with.
Each time a model with this code makes a ranged attack that targets a model within half range, the armour penetration characteristic of that attack is improved by 1.
When the protocol of the vengeful stars is used you get both command protocols instead of one.
NOVOKH: AWAKENED BY MURDER
Add 1" to charge rolls made for units with this code.
Each time a model with tthis code makes a melee attack, if the model has made a charge move, was charged, or performed a heroic intervention this turn, improve the armour penetration characteristic of this attack by 1.
When the protocol of the hungry void is used you get both command protocols instead of one.
NEPHREKH: TRANSLOCATION BEAMS
Models with this code have a 6+ invulnerable save.
Each time a unit witth this code advances, it can translocate. If it does, do not make an advance roll for it. Instead, until the end of ttthe phase, add 6" to the move characteristic of the models in that unit. If a model translocated, until the end of the turn, models in that unit cannot shoot.
Each time a unit with this code falls back or translocates, until the end of tthe phase, models in that unit can move over models and terrain as if they were not there.
When the protocol of the sudden storm is used you get both command protocols instead of one.
//
//(edited)
[8:39 AM]
NIHILAKH: AGGRESSIVELY TERRITORIAL
Units with this code have the objective secured ability as in the core book. If a model in such a unit already has this ability, that model counts as one additional model when dettermining control of an objective marker.
Each time an attack with an armour penetration characteristic of -1 is allocated to a model with this code, if that model's unit is wholly within its controller's deployment zone, that attack has an armour penetration characteristic of 0 instead.
When the protocol of the eternal guardian is used you get both command protocols instead of one.
SZAREKHAN: UNCANNY ARTIFICERS
Each time a model witth this code would take a wound as the result of a mortal wound, roll one D6, on a 5+ that wound is ignored.
Each time a unitt with this code is selected to shoot or fight, you can re-roll one wound roll when making that unit's attacls.
When the protocol of the undying legions is used you get both command protocols instead of one.
SAUTEKH: RELENTLESS ADVANCE
Each time a morale test is ttaken for a unit with this code, you can re-roll that test.
Instead of following the normal rules for rapid fire weapons, models with this code shooting rapid-fire weapons make double the number of attacks if the shooting model's target is within 18".
When the protocol of the conquering tyrant is used you get both command protocols instead of one.
Well done KurtAngle2! Great summary and much faster than I could do it.
Agree with Sasori that Sautekh seems maybe weakest, though it does make that new warrior gun pretty amazing! My gut tells me Nihilakh is the runaway winner, ignoring a save modifier is good but objective secured wraiths/skorptekhs/transports seems incredibly good in the new missions. That said, Nephrek's save and massive movement could be very good also, Mephirit remains excellent, and I think the reroll 1 wound roll for everything in Szarekhan is secretly maybe the best buff after Objective Secured everything...
Agree with Sasori that Sautekh seems maybe weakest, though it does make that new warrior gun pretty amazing! My gut tells me Nihilakh is the runaway winner, ignoring a save modifier is good but objective secured wraiths/skorptekhs/transports seems incredibly good in the new missions. That said, Nephrek's save and massive movement could be very good also, Mephirit remains excellent, and I think the reroll 1 wound roll for everything in Szarekhan is secretly maybe the best buff after Objective Secured everything...
I'm not really happy with any of these dynasty rules, to be honest. Some have good pieces, but the other half is rather... bleh.
It depends what the protocols actually do.
Otherwise custom dynasties may be the way forward.
Yes we have to wait till October.
On the flip side, there's probably no big events happening this year (and those small events probably shouldn't happen either to be fair), so getting a couple of months in before codex releases isn't too bad
Also slightly disappointed that we didn't get to see the creature behind the monolith
Other than the glimpses of the five surprise characters (for other armies), they really showed off very little. We know there are other SM things as well.
I guess they feel the need to drag this out for a few more months.
Nihalakh's defence against AP-1 while in your deployment is handy for the first turn and probably allows for less 'hidden' and more aggressive setup because it demands min. of AP -2 before they care all that much. And if they're in cover as well it's a big deal.
These two new codexes will be available for you to buy in October – stay tuned for more previews and more new model reveals in the coming weeks. Speaking of which – we’ll be back soon with another look into the future.
So reading the crusade page they show for necrons, one of the battle traits for core units lets you benefit from Command Protocols while anywhere on the board instead of being within 6" of a Necron Character
So command protocols seem like they benefit units in 6" of characters, no idea if this is the same ones as described on the dynasty traits page
It is only half (or 1/3rd since we don't know the Protocols stuff) of the trait. You get things like that with Marines. Look at DA that have a trait based on Morale tests for example (no this is not an excuse to state how Marines are functionally immune to morale because you're never taking more than 5 models in yor ITC-hammer style lists )
The Nephrekh one has a pretty cool combo with the Royal Warden. You ignore models when you fall back, and you can use the Royal Warden's ability to then shoot and charge.
Means you don't really have to worry about getting tripointed as Nephrek or having to use the desperate breakout.
Sasori wrote: Nihalakh and Nephrekh both seem pretty strong to me.
We know that 9th is so much more about the objectives than before, and both of these really support the objective game.
Granted. Both have uses.
But Nihalakh's ignore -1 Ap if you're in your deployment zone is rather... eh. It doesn't mesh well with the first one.
Not entirely happy with the no shooting on advance aspect of Nephrekh, either, though that can be worked around.
I do find it interesting that the existing Code rerolls got dropped altogether, and the Szarekhan and Sautekh rerolls are smaller in scope.
Some of this I think is fair, other parts I think miss the forest for the trees. Most lists were using Sautekh before to ignore the penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons on veehiclees - that's now gone by default. Sautekh is now good if Imotekh remains good, but there are options now at least.
I agree the ignore AP-1 seems limited, but then objective secured is immensely strong. I would take that over rerolling 1's to hit when shooting if you didn't move any day of the week. It feels strong, especially with tesla, but it's about 0.5 wounds more on average - not a huge deal, and with all our short ranged shooting was never incredible. Comparatively, objective secured now means you can potentially do silly things like drop in a unit of deathmarks or flayed ones next to a random unit, which are now basically troops, or charge wraiths into the centre of the table, which are considerably better than most troop units can handle. It's got potential to be very frustrating to play against honestly, it fundamentally changes what units you take in an army and that's before we know what the protocols do - outrider with 6x wraithwing could be brutal, as an example.
The no shoot or advance is a bummer, I'll give you that, but again, think of what we gain for that. First of all, we gained fall back through models - that's huge on its own. Secondly, a 6++ on the whole army means that all of a sudden, those scarabs, which presumably may stick at 15 points, are looking pretty fun, with T3 W4 6++ - takes a fair few shots to remove, and moving 16" a turn makes them interesting - then they can fall back over models, etc...
There's no denying some of the codes are a bit nerfed - looking at you, Sautekh - but they fit better into some of the 9th edition changes too. Just look at scarabs - for 540 points, you can have 36 in an outrider, which is 144 wounds, as much as some foot guard armies have in total. There are some real doors opened by these codes for those units - how about 144 objective secured wounds which move at least 10" a turn? How about they can charge 2d6+1", hitting with AP -1? 16" advances with a 6++? Ignoring mortal wounds on a 5++ and rerolling a failed wound roll per unit? Those are all good abilities, and it's not put you back that many points, plus there's extra unknown benefits to come. Mephirit and Sautekh look great with warriors too. I'm not going to pretend I think any of these are game breaking, and many are weaker than marine ones in the current book, but I definitely think they're stronger than what we have by a fair amount.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kharne the Befriender wrote: So reading the crusade page they show for necrons, one of the battle traits for core units lets you benefit from Command Protocols while anywhere on the board instead of being within 6" of a Necron Character
So command protocols seem like they benefit units in 6" of characters, no idea if this is the same ones as described on the dynasty traits page
Good eye, I can barely read them but you're right. Interesting, that might make them a fair amount less powerful than doctrines, if they're also unchanged.
Also they talk about the new Monolith as going toe to toe with a knight - are they going to be lumped in as super heavies? That would suck.
Eyjio wrote:There's no denying some of the codes are a bit nerfed
I wasn't even thinking in terms of nerfs, just the uneven nature of the traits. Objective secured is great, the other is marginal, and kind of a pain to track past turn one (did you move all the way out?)
I just have a preference for generally useful and non-fiddly traits.
That they're by and large color-scheme based makes the decision and out-of-proportion important one.
Eyjio wrote: Did anyone else catch these dynasty codes flashing by? Some are really insane. Bit hard to read, but Nephrekh gives a 6++, Nihilakh seems to grant army wide Objective Secured, Szarekhan have a 5++ against mortal wounds, etc. Also, Nihilakh has the interesting phrase "When the Protocol of the Eternal Guardian becomes active for your army, if every unit in your army (excluding Dynastic Agent and C'tan Shard units) has this code, you can select both of that command protocol's directives instead of just one" - are we getting doctrine equivalents?! Also interesting it's talking about armies, not detachments, I wonder if the new Space Marines will follow suit.
Well, optimism for being good just went through the roof, now I'm a bit worried we'll be overtuned! I can't believe how strong some of this sounds, especially compared to what I was expecting.
Not all good though. Nephrek can't shoot anymore after doing full speed advance. My playstyle died.
Dudeface wrote: I think that may be the most sleeper op dynasty tbh.
Not sure I'd call it a sleeper, I think most competitively minded people will immediately see how powerful it is. I mean, it all depends on how the meta shakes out and how command protocols work, but even without specifically building a new list to fit the codex, 10 Immortals or Warriors on an objective counts as 20 objective secured models - you're basically saying to the opponent that they'd better be able to wipe your unit, or you'll reanimate more guys back and make the objective nearly impossible to contest. It's extremely good. Even 3 Immortals holds against 5 scions/infiltrators/whatever other MSU drops in unexpectedly into the back field. See how it all shakes out I guess.
Does anyone know if we'll get custom dynasties? That's what I'd like the most
Custom dynasties are confirmed
New units like the Shard of the Void Dragon and the Silent King himself give you new and terrifying ways to reconquer the galaxy, while rules for custom dynasties and the legendary brass-armoured Szarekhan Dynasty allow for even more choice and freedom.
Does anyone know if we'll get custom dynasties? That's what I'd like the most
Custom dynasties are confirmed
New units like the Shard of the Void Dragon and the Silent King himself give you new and terrifying ways to reconquer the galaxy, while rules for custom dynasties and the legendary brass-armoured Szarekhan Dynasty allow for even more choice and freedom.
You, sir, made my day! And you're certainly not a punk!
So, I'm reading through Indomitus the novel (kindle book went live after midnight last night).
A fair bit of it is just unit names appearing, much like the Dark Imperium novel showcased stuff for 8th. A plasmancer is one of the main Necron characters, for example. And there are skorpekhs wandering about, with a fair bit on the destroyer cult. (though its... not as interesting as I hoped)
But finally, finally (over half way in), there is some game relevant info. It frequently mentions Destroyers (as in the existing antigrav units) alongside skorpekhs, as well as warriors under the protocol-thrall of the Skorpekh lord. But then there's this bit:
Zozar had only his first tier of skorpekh elites with him – twenty tripodal warriors armed with a variety of long-range energy weapons and dimensional phase blades.
Does anyone know if we'll get custom dynasties? That's what I'd like the most
It's right there in the announcement for the new codices...
Codex: Necrons, meanwhile, brings the Necrons to life in terrifying splendour and tactical depth never before seen for the Faction. Rules have been fundamentally reworked to diversify the army and offer a vast range of potential strategies. Want to play a close-combat Necron force? A surging tide of Canoptek critters? A short-ranged incursion force popping out of portals to annihilate everything? The choice is yours. New units like the Shard of the Void Dragon and the Silent King himself give you new and terrifying ways to reconquer the galaxy, while rules for custom dynasties and the legendary brass-armoured Szarekhan Dynasty allow for even more choice and freedom. Take your army on Crusade and things get even crazier as your Necrons grow and change, with Overlords gaining ever-longer Dynastic Epithets (yes, really – there’s a random table) or succumbing to the horror of the Destroyer curse…
In the Dark Imperium novels, Gravis armour has forcefields.
I honestly don't remember that. Everything I saw in the DI novel turned up with a kit.
Except the primaris thunderhawk equivalent, but I don't need or want something on that scale.
He's even taking the time to describe the new scarab wound on 6 ability- it doesn't make sense to just dismiss everything as 'pah, novels'
Unless Gav is making things up for his own amusement, expect gun armed skorpekhs.
As well as current destroyers
We never got Destroyers with tesla cannons, Lychguard with ranged weapons/axes/scythe&shield, canoptek fliers, spider-Lords, a giant floaty head with death rays shooting out of it's eyes etc.; so I wouldn't necessarily hold out too much hope...
Unless Gav is making things up for his own amusement, expect gun armed skorpekhs.
As well as current destroyers
We never got Destroyers with tesla cannons, Lychguard with ranged weapons/axes/scythe&shield, canoptek fliers, spider-Lords, a giant floaty head with death rays shooting out of it's eyes etc.; so I wouldn't necessarily hold out too much hope...
This is true, but we do know there's at least another model yet unrevealed on a skorptekh model's base, and it does look like it could be carrying a gun - it definitely has the tubes you'd usually see for a ranged necron. I could see it being real.
Unless Gav is making things up for his own amusement, expect gun armed skorpekhs.
As well as current destroyers
We never got Destroyers with tesla cannons, Lychguard with ranged weapons/axes/scythe&shield, canoptek fliers, spider-Lords, a giant floaty head with death rays shooting out of it's eyes etc.; so I wouldn't necessarily hold out too much hope...
What were those from?
----
This one is drilling down to basic details on plasmacytes and the friggin' skeleton on the marine captain's shield.
Seems strange to be overly dismissive when we know for a fact we haven't seen everything yet, let alone which units will get full kits.
Unless Gav is making things up for his own amusement, expect gun armed skorpekhs.
As well as current destroyers
We never got Destroyers with tesla cannons, Lychguard with ranged weapons/axes/scythe&shield, canoptek fliers, spider-Lords, a giant floaty head with death rays shooting out of it's eyes etc.; so I wouldn't necessarily hold out too much hope...
What were those from?
Fall of Damnos, Mephiston: Revenant Crusade, The Infinite Tableau, Devourer, The World Engine, Dark Creed, Kal Jericho: Above and Beyond respectively.
Voss wrote: So, I'm reading through Indomitus the novel (kindle book went live after midnight last night).
A fair bit of it is just unit names appearing, much like the Dark Imperium novel showcased stuff for 8th. A plasmancer is one of the main Necron characters, for example. And there are skorpekhs wandering about, with a fair bit on the destroyer cult. (though its... not as interesting as I hoped)
But finally, finally (over half way in), there is some game relevant info. It frequently mentions Destroyers (as in the existing antigrav units) alongside skorpekhs, as well as warriors under the protocol-thrall of the Skorpekh lord. But then there's this bit:
Zozar had only his first tier of skorpekh elites with him – twenty tripodal warriors armed with a variety of long-range energy weapons and dimensional phase blades.
Been combing through the crusade upgrade stuff trying to spot any hints, using an AI rescaler to try and make it readable, though its still really blurry so some words may be off. Could probably reverse engineer it all if I knew the font but whatever, it's not that much more info. Here's a few tidbits which might be interesting, including fluff text in case I mess up the real rules:
Canoptek Units Trait 5-6:
Self-regenerator Nodes
Augmented with advanced matter replication capacitors, these Canoptek constructs can swiftly repair themselves in battle. Each time you make Reanimation Protocol rolls for this unit, you can change a single dice result to a 6.
I thought that was interesting, as Canoptek units don't have RP and haven't since the 7th ed decurion formation they got. Looks like at least some will!
Cryptek Units Trait 1-2:
Corporeal Integration
This Cryptek has take upon themselves elements of their own technologies with perfect ??? Once per battle, when this model has used its Chronometron, Harbinger of Despair, Harbinger of Destruction or ??? of (Replication/Reanimation?) ability, it can use that ability ????? (probably "one additional time."?)
So, this clearly mentions harbingers and that the chronometron is an ability to be used - maybe like the reanimator you pick a unit to get the 5++? No idea honestly, this one is super hard to read.
Also, Lords are mentioned as a keyword, so they're definitely still around. Eldritch Artifice, readable normally, talks about the technomancer keyword, so I guess we'll have technomancers and plasmancers as the split of Crypteks.
Nothing else new, though the crusade rules look fun for them, they have their own relics, lords/overlords can turn into destroyer cult characters and apparently some table where the more crusade stuff they win, the more they can improve gauss weapons. All very flavourful but not integral to how the army plays in a matched play battle. Still on the fence with crusade TBH, I wish it defaulted to points, but I guess maybe you can rebalance matches using them anyway, just counting power level for the army tracking stuff? Might be fun for pick up games anyway.
From Facebook, a side-by-side comparison of Warp Lightning, Hexwraith Flame and Tesseract Glow:
Spoiler:
I've got an old Necron Overlord to experiment on. I believe for the Necron weapons I'm going to try a thinned coat of Warp Lightning over a layered base of Retributor Armour, Auric Armour Gold and Stormhost Silver. For the bright green glowy bits, I'm going to try Tesseract Glow over a layered base of Iron Hands Steel, Stormhost Silver and Vallejo Metal Medium.
Ghaz wrote: From Facebook, a side-by-side comparison of Warp Lightning, Hexwraith Flame and Tesseract Glow:
Spoiler:
I've got an old Necron Overlord to experiment on. I believe for the Necron weapons I'm going to try a thinned coat of Warp Lightning over a layered base of Retributor Armour, Auric Armour Gold and Stormhost Silver. For the bright green glowy bits, I'm going to try Tesseract Glow over a layered base of Iron Hands Steel, Stormhost Silver and Vallejo Metal Medium.
Starting Necrons as a departure from Aeldari. I finished the 20 Warriors yesterday. Nothing earth shattering, but the kits are fairly specific for fitment. I clipped the first 10 and realized things needed to be matched together; took time. The second batch of 10 went much easier by following the directions.
Sarigar wrote: Starting Necrons as a departure from Aeldari. I finished the 20 Warriors yesterday. Nothing earth shattering, but the kits are fairly specific for fitment. I clipped the first 10 and realized things needed to be matched together; took time. The second batch of 10 went much easier by following the directions.
That was quick! Nice one.
I go to pick up my two halves today, so I'm happy.
Ghaz wrote: A couple of reviews of the new Tesseract Glow paint, from Sword 'n' Steele and Mighty Lancer Games:
Spoiler:
Not sold on that, it doesn't look particularly glowly. Also, Maybe it's the video, or my monitor but the center area where there is very little pigment seems yellowish rather than greenish.
As an aside the necron models in the indomitus box are super fun to put together.
Ghaz wrote: A couple of reviews of the new Tesseract Glow paint, from Sword 'n' Steele and Mighty Lancer Games:
Spoiler:
Not sold on that, it doesn't look particularly glowly. Also, Maybe it's the video, or my monitor but the center area where there is very little pigment seems yellowish rather than greenish.
As an aside the necron models in the indomitus box are super fun to put together.
Tesseract Glow looks better in my post about six up from this one...
Kharne the Befriender wrote: Off the wall thought here, but with the crusade page mentioning chrono-crytpeks, Harbingers of Destruction, and Harbingers of Despair
What are the odds that the mini behind the monolith is in fact a really odd Cryptek, the Harbinger of Despair, he's got the mono eye and everything
Likely wrong, but interesting thought
It looks like he has a few more eyes than one to me...
Kharne the Befriender wrote: Off the wall thought here, but with the crusade page mentioning chrono-crytpeks, Harbingers of Destruction, and Harbingers of Despair
What are the odds that the mini behind the monolith is in fact a really odd Cryptek, the Harbinger of Despair, he's got the mono eye and everything
Likely wrong, but interesting thought
It looks like he has a few more eyes than one to me...
Spoiler:
Yeah almost looks like a ring, or maybe a compound eye, which would go with his extra limbs.
No surprise that it's the units that are not on the single sprue, at least on the Necron side. I suspect those will be locked to Indomitus for a while.
Still missing where the DDS and Lokhust Destroyer are. Maybe we'll be seeing them sometime soon.
Sasori wrote: No surprise that it's the units that are not on the single sprue, at least on the Necron side. I suspect those will be locked to Indomitus for a while.
I imagine the Plasmancer and Cryptothralls and the Canoptek Reanimator from Indomitus will show up in a Start Collecting box at some point.
Sasori wrote: Still missing where the DDS and Lokhust Destroyer are. Maybe we'll be seeing them sometime soon.
I expect the Lohkust Heavy Destroyer, Canoptek Doomstalker and the Convergence of Dominion to drop with/near the release of the codex.
Sasori wrote: No surprise that it's the units that are not on the single sprue, at least on the Necron side. I suspect those will be locked to Indomitus for a while.
I imagine the Plasmancer and Cryptothralls and the Canoptek Reanimator from Indomitus will show up in a Start Collecting box at some point.
Maybe, I those and the Skorpekh Lord are going to be locked to Indomitus for a while, since they all share the same sprue. I think that pic with the DDS may be our new start collecting.
Sasori wrote: Still missing where the DDS and Lokhust Destroyer are. Maybe we'll be seeing them sometime soon.
I expect the Lohkust Heavy Destroyer, Canoptek Doomstalker and the Convergence of Dominion to drop with/near the release of the codex.
The weird situation with the Lokhust and DDS is they have points in the CA and are both Easy to Build. I feel like these are coming in some other boxset, but I figured one of them would have been the starter set. That's why I don't think they are coming with the codex drop, or at least were not initially planned to do so.
Sasori wrote: No surprise that it's the units that are not on the single sprue, at least on the Necron side. I suspect those will be locked to Indomitus for a while.
I imagine the Plasmancer and Cryptothralls and the Canoptek Reanimator from Indomitus will show up in a Start Collecting box at some point.
Maybe, I those and the Skorpekh Lord are going to be locked to Indomitus for a while, since they all share the same sprue. I think that pic with the DDS may be our new start collecting.
Sasori wrote: Still missing where the DDS and Lokhust Destroyer are. Maybe we'll be seeing them sometime soon.
I expect the Lohkust Heavy Destroyer, Canoptek Doomstalker and the Convergence of Dominion to drop with/near the release of the codex.
The weird situation with the Lokhust and DDS is they have points in the CA and are both Easy to Build. I feel like these are coming in some other boxset, but I figured one of them would have been the starter set. That's why I don't think they are coming with the codex drop, or at least were not initially planned to do so.
Chapter Approved 2019 had points for a Big Mek with Kustom Force Field months before the datasheet came out in Saga of the Beast. It's just Games Workshop being Games Workshop...
They should have really released a downloadable Big mek with KFF pdf. Having to buy an expansion to get the rules for a model which will become obsolete in a few months anyway is a bit gakky.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: They should have really released a downloadable Big mek with KFF pdf. Having to buy an expansion to get the rules for a model which will become obsolete in a few months anyway is a bit gakky.
Umm what model got obsolete? KFF mek is still more than usable. Necron stuff aren't going to become obsolete either.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: They should have really released a downloadable Big mek with KFF pdf. Having to buy an expansion to get the rules for a model which will become obsolete in a few months anyway is a bit gakky.
Umm what model got obsolete? KFF mek is still more than usable. Necron stuff aren't going to become obsolete either.
Sorry, that wasn't clear. I was talking about the book, not the model.
The Big Mek with KFF rules will most likely show up in the Ork Codex, so buying Psychic Awakening for that is pointless, imo.
Sorry if this has been addressed somewhere, but was there ever a confirmation of how Reanimation Protocols will work now? I've seen some rumors floating around, but not sure if any were confirmed.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: Sorry if this has been addressed somewhere, but was there ever a confirmation of how Reanimation Protocols will work now? I've seen some rumors floating around, but not sure if any were confirmed.
Nothing concrete whatsoever, we are still totally in the dark. There are theories but nothing worth repeating at this stage
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: Sorry if this has been addressed somewhere, but was there ever a confirmation of how Reanimation Protocols will work now? I've seen some rumors floating around, but not sure if any were confirmed.
Nothing concrete whatsoever, we are still totally in the dark. There are theories but nothing worth repeating at this stage
I wouldnt really care if they didn't reveal any more rules between now and our codex i just want to know how RP is gonna work as that's such a big thing for us
As of right now, you're still playing Necrons with the 8th edition codex plus the extra datasheets from Indomitus. Reanimation Protocols won't change until the new codex is released in October.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Well, it looks like the guys over at The Army Painter got their Indomitus box...
CthuluIsSpy wrote: They should have really released a downloadable Big mek with KFF pdf. Having to buy an expansion to get the rules for a model which will become obsolete in a few months anyway is a bit gakky.
Umm what model got obsolete? KFF mek is still more than usable. Necron stuff aren't going to become obsolete either.
Sorry, that wasn't clear. I was talking about the book, not the model.
The Big Mek with KFF rules will most likely show up in the Ork Codex, so buying Psychic Awakening for that is pointless, imo.
Yeah. And codex is when? Codexes don't get all replaced in few months. Expect to have 8e codexes for couple years. It took like 1.5 years to replace indexes with codexes in 8e and then still had couple new ones. Now there's less of a rush to replace them to 9th.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm worried/wondering what's the fate of our destroyers going to be. Locust seems to be either new variant alltogether or replacement of heavy destroyers. Whatabout regulars? And if it's new will old ones get new models or will they keep old models on sale?
If old models go off then those are to legends. Suddenly I'm happy I never got around buying those heavy destroyers like I planned after CA19...Might have proven to be expensive short term addition.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: They should have really released a downloadable Big mek with KFF pdf. Having to buy an expansion to get the rules for a model which will become obsolete in a few months anyway is a bit gakky.
Umm what model got obsolete? KFF mek is still more than usable. Necron stuff aren't going to become obsolete either.
Sorry, that wasn't clear. I was talking about the book, not the model.
The Big Mek with KFF rules will most likely show up in the Ork Codex, so buying Psychic Awakening for that is pointless, imo.
Yeah. And codex is when? Codexes don't get all replaced in few months. Expect to have 8e codexes for couple years. It took like 1.5 years to replace indexes with codexes in 8e and then still had couple new ones. Now there's less of a rush to replace them to 9th.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm worried/wondering what's the fate of our destroyers going to be. Locust seems to be either new variant alltogether or replacement of heavy destroyers. Whatabout regulars? And if it's new will old ones get new models or will they keep old models on sale?
If old models go off then those are to legends. Suddenly I'm happy I never got around buying those heavy destroyers like I planned after CA19...Might have proven to be expensive short term addition.
I'm hopeful that we keep destroyers as a new Lokhust destroyer model.
The fact that we have Lokhust HEAVY destroyers means I expect we will see the light variant eventually.
GW doesn't usually stick heavy on a model unless there's another variant of it.
Bolter, heavy bolter
Rail rifle, heavy rail rifle
Intercessor, heavy intercessor
CthuluIsSpy wrote: They should have really released a downloadable Big mek with KFF pdf. Having to buy an expansion to get the rules for a model which will become obsolete in a few months anyway is a bit gakky.
Umm what model got obsolete? KFF mek is still more than usable. Necron stuff aren't going to become obsolete either.
Sorry, that wasn't clear. I was talking about the book, not the model.
The Big Mek with KFF rules will most likely show up in the Ork Codex, so buying Psychic Awakening for that is pointless, imo.
Yeah. And codex is when? Codexes don't get all replaced in few months. Expect to have 8e codexes for couple years. It took like 1.5 years to replace indexes with codexes in 8e and then still had couple new ones. Now there's less of a rush to replace them to 9th.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm worried/wondering what's the fate of our destroyers going to be. Locust seems to be either new variant alltogether or replacement of heavy destroyers. Whatabout regulars? And if it's new will old ones get new models or will they keep old models on sale?
If old models go off then those are to legends. Suddenly I'm happy I never got around buying those heavy destroyers like I planned after CA19...Might have proven to be expensive short term addition.
New WHC article on expanding the indomitus Necrons, they had the Lokhust destroyer and this bit:
"If you like your Necrons ultra-violent and utterly without remorse, you’ll no doubt be a fan of your new Skorpekh Lord and its murderous kin. With the introduction of these out-and-out melee specialists, the Destroyer Cult is now a force to be reckoned with at every distance. Whether of the Skorpekh or Lokhust variety, Destroyers work exceptionally well in conjunction with one another – even more so than when in the presence of both their Lords for re-rolls on hit and wound rolls of 1."
Kharne the Befriender wrote: New WHC article on expanding the indomitus Necrons, they had the Lokhust destroyer and this bit:
"If you like your Necrons ultra-violent and utterly without remorse, you’ll no doubt be a fan of your new Skorpekh Lord and its murderous kin. With the introduction of these out-and-out melee specialists, the Destroyer Cult is now a force to be reckoned with at every distance. Whether of the Skorpekh or Lokhust variety, Destroyers work exceptionally well in conjunction with one another – even more so than when in the presence of both their Lords for re-rolls on hit and wound rolls of 1."
It also mention Szeras: "He’s a serious force multiplier, able to use Rites of Reanimation twice each turn..."
Anyone have any Idea on what this might be? It's not a rule on his datasheet
You missed this little tidbit...
Whether of the Skorpekh or Lokhust variety, Destroyers work exceptionally well in conjunction with one another...
No mention of the 'normal' Destroyers, just Skorpekh and Lokhust. This is a hint that GW is likely going to replace the existing Destroyers with the Lokhust Destroyers (including the Heavy and Lord varieties).
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Ah, so it would seem that Lokhust are the new designation for the old destroyers. Makes sense.
Yes. And I'd bet even money that the Lokhust Destroyer seen HERE is actually the Lokhust Lord with some sort of enmitic weapon.
No, that is 100% just a Lokhust Heavy destroyer. In the article that officially revealed them it talked about both variants and revealed their weapon names. Gauss Annihilator and Enmetic Exterminator for the enmitic version.
The big question is are we getting more new kits or are they just renaming the old kits until we get some new ones in the future.
Looks like whenever the Codex does drop there will be an ability called Rights of Reanimation. It is mentioned in the Illuminor Szeras bit of the below article that he can use it twice. No information about what it does but we can assume it buffs RP in some way.
Necronmaniac05 wrote: Looks like whenever the Codex does drop there will be an ability called Rights of Reanimation. It is mentioned in the Illuminor Szeras bit of the below article that he can use it twice. No information about what it does but we can assume it buffs RP in some way.
I'm willing to bet that it's the Cryptek's +1RP buff, it could be like the Royal Wardens ability and MWBD where you have to pick a unit for it to affect
The pamphlet from Indomitus shows we can freely mix Flayers and Reapers in a squad. Now, assuming that carries over to the Codex?
They might be worth taking in certain numbers within a given squad. Thought process here is that, sooner or later, a squad is going to take casualties, and the range will close.
Having say, four in a unit of 10 could mean that once casualties have occurred, that squad could still remain a pretty decent threat, as the enemy will also have suffered (in theory) casualties already.
Yes we would be sacrificing range in the early game, but for mid to late they may allow Necron Warriors to punch well above their weight?
The pamphlet from Indomitus shows we can freely mix Flayers and Reapers in a squad. Now, assuming that carries over to the Codex?
They might be worth taking in certain numbers within a given squad. Thought process here is that, sooner or later, a squad is going to take casualties, and the range will close.
Having say, four in a unit of 10 could mean that once casualties have occurred, that squad could still remain a pretty decent threat, as the enemy will also have suffered (in theory) casualties already.
Yes we would be sacrificing range in the early game, but for mid to late they may allow Necron Warriors to punch well above their weight?
The new Dynasty codes with Sautekh really make reapers a very attractive option if you are bringing warriors.
On the subject of the changes to Reanimation, I think we can make some assumptions. For starters I think we rule out it being any kind of feel no pain save, since we have seen the one Dynasty gains a 6++ as one of its traits and I would be down right pointless if Reanimation was such a save already. Next, I recall them stating it was redesigned to scale with different point values, this tell me the current system will no longer be used. I also recall a statement hinting at reanimation being different for different units, stronger for a lord and weaker for say a warrior, of course this may have just been referring to the fluff and how lords carry more personality than your warrior. There is also evidence that Caoptek units will have at least some access to reanimation. There was also mention of tactical decision making during the reanimation phase.
All of this together, I will make my predition on how Reanimation will work this edition. Reanimation will happen at the start of your turn. Models will have one chance at reanimating, if they pass they get added back to the unit, if they fail the are removed from the reanimation pool(They cannot try again next turn). Different units may have different rolls to make for reanimation. Warriors may only reanimate on a 6 while Immortals reanimate on a 5. This reanimation roll can be effected by a multiple of different factors, Cryptek, Reanimators, ResOrbs,Canoptek units with a Spider nearby ect. Units that are wiped out can still reanimate but with some form of penalty(could be a simple -1, or maybe they can only reanimate on a 6).
This is just my guess on how reanimation will play out. I wish I could site the various statements I remembered but there is just too much media to sort through. I would not be surprised if I remembered half of it wrong.
The pamphlet from Indomitus shows we can freely mix Flayers and Reapers in a squad. Now, assuming that carries over to the Codex?
They might be worth taking in certain numbers within a given squad. Thought process here is that, sooner or later, a squad is going to take casualties, and the range will close.
Having say, four in a unit of 10 could mean that once casualties have occurred, that squad could still remain a pretty decent threat, as the enemy will also have suffered (in theory) casualties already.
Yes we would be sacrificing range in the early game, but for mid to late they may allow Necron Warriors to punch well above their weight?
Not a bad idea, kill off the Reapers in the early game, and as the distance closes start killing Flayers and subbing in Reapers from RP.
The pamphlet from Indomitus shows we can freely mix Flayers and Reapers in a squad. Now, assuming that carries over to the Codex?
They might be worth taking in certain numbers within a given squad. Thought process here is that, sooner or later, a squad is going to take casualties, and the range will close.
Having say, four in a unit of 10 could mean that once casualties have occurred, that squad could still remain a pretty decent threat, as the enemy will also have suffered (in theory) casualties already.
Yes we would be sacrificing range in the early game, but for mid to late they may allow Necron Warriors to punch well above their weight?
Not a bad idea, kill off the Reapers in the early game, and as the distance closes start killing Flayers and subbing in Reapers from RP.
I might have to test that out
Current rules would not allow you to switch weapons. If you kill a model with a Gauss Flayer, then when you make a Reanimation roll for that model it will come back with a Gauss Flayer. You will need to specify which dice are being rolled for models with Gauss Flayers and which are being rolled for models with Gauss Reapers.
Venerable Ironclad wrote: On the subject of the changes to Reanimation, I think we can make some assumptions. For starters I think we rule out it being any kind of feel no pain save, since we have seen the one Dynasty gains a 6++ as one of its traits and I would be down right pointless if Reanimation was such a save already.
Invulnerable and 'feel no pain' (ignoring wounds, in 9th edition parlance) are different. There is no overlap.
Next, I recall them stating it was redesigned to scale with different point values, this tell me the current system will no longer be used. I also recall a statement hinting at reanimation being different for different units, stronger for a lord and weaker for say a warrior, of course this may have just been referring to the fluff and how lords carry more personality than your warrior. There is also evidence that Caoptek units will have at least some access to reanimation. There was also mention of tactical decision making during the reanimation phase.
All of this together, I will make my predition on how Reanimation will work this edition. Reanimation will happen at the start of your turn. Models will have one chance at reanimating, if they pass they get added back to the unit, if they fail the are removed from the reanimation pool(They cannot try again next turn). Different units may have different rolls to make for reanimation. Warriors may only reanimate on a 6 while Immortals reanimate on a 5. This reanimation roll can be effected by a multiple of different factors, Cryptek, Reanimators, ResOrbs,Canoptek units with a Spider nearby ect. Units that are wiped out can still reanimate but with some form of penalty(could be a simple -1, or maybe they can only reanimate on a 6).
This is just my guess on how reanimation will play out. I wish I could site the various statements I remembered but there is just too much media to sort through. I would not be surprised if I remembered half of it wrong.
That sounds very messy.
Right now the differences we know (because they're on the Indomitus datacards) is that warriors reroll 1s on RP rolls, scarabs (canoptek unit) don't have RP, and overlords have living metal rather than RP.
The pamphlet from Indomitus shows we can freely mix Flayers and Reapers in a squad. Now, assuming that carries over to the Codex?
They might be worth taking in certain numbers within a given squad. Thought process here is that, sooner or later, a squad is going to take casualties, and the range will close.
Having say, four in a unit of 10 could mean that once casualties have occurred, that squad could still remain a pretty decent threat, as the enemy will also have suffered (in theory) casualties already.
Yes we would be sacrificing range in the early game, but for mid to late they may allow Necron Warriors to punch well above their weight?
Not a bad idea, kill off the Reapers in the early game, and as the distance closes start killing Flayers and subbing in Reapers from RP.
I might have to test that out
Current rules would not allow you to switch weapons. If you kill a model with a Gauss Flayer, then when you make a Reanimation roll for that model it will come back with a Gauss Flayer. You will need to specify which dice are being rolled for models with Gauss Flayers and which are being rolled for models with Gauss Reapers.
Right you are, definitely not used to having units with mixed weapons
Anyone notice how expensive the lokhust heavy destroyer is, odds are heavy destroyers are getting the obliterator treatment, more wounds, better defense, bigger gun. Since they called them out as being different units, they don't mean the lokhust heavy destroyer to be a new version of the existing model. Having two data sheets for heavy destroyers might get a bit confusing so maybe the current heavy destroyers become an equipment option for normal destroyers.
Venerable Ironclad wrote: On the subject of the changes to Reanimation, I think we can make some assumptions. For starters I think we rule out it being any kind of feel no pain save, since we have seen the one Dynasty gains a 6++ as one of its traits and I would be down right pointless if Reanimation was such a save already. Next, I recall them stating it was redesigned to scale with different point values, this tell me the current system will no longer be used. I also recall a statement hinting at reanimation being different for different units, stronger for a lord and weaker for say a warrior, of course this may have just been referring to the fluff and how lords carry more personality than your warrior. There is also evidence that Caoptek units will have at least some access to reanimation. There was also mention of tactical decision making during the reanimation phase.
All of this together, I will make my predition on how Reanimation will work this edition. Reanimation will happen at the start of your turn. Models will have one chance at reanimating, if they pass they get added back to the unit, if they fail the are removed from the reanimation pool(They cannot try again next turn). Different units may have different rolls to make for reanimation. Warriors may only reanimate on a 6 while Immortals reanimate on a 5. This reanimation roll can be effected by a multiple of different factors, Cryptek, Reanimators, ResOrbs,Canoptek units with a Spider nearby ect. Units that are wiped out can still reanimate but with some form of penalty(could be a simple -1, or maybe they can only reanimate on a 6).
This is just my guess on how reanimation will play out. I wish I could site the various statements I remembered but there is just too much media to sort through. I would not be surprised if I remembered half of it wrong.
6++ is inv save so usable with fnp. New dynastys 5+++ vs mortal is proof you seeked.
And what you described is a) buffable fnp b) huge nerf
Grimgold wrote: Anyone notice how expensive the lokhust heavy destroyer is, odds are heavy destroyers are getting the obliterator treatment, more wounds, better defense, bigger gun. Since they called them out as being different units, they don't mean the lokhust heavy destroyer to be a new version of the existing model. Having two data sheets for heavy destroyers might get a bit confusing so maybe the current heavy destroyers become an equipment option for normal destroyers.
If you ignore the 'Lokhust' part of the name it's just a Heavy Destroyer, which the FA slot Destroyers can take 1/unit as is.
Currently the 'normal' Haeavy Destroyers can be in units of 1-3. According to the Field Manual/Points page the 'Lokhust' is in units of 1-3. So it's probably an up-gunned version and not a situation of Destroyer/Heavy Destroyer/Lokhust Heavy Destroyer (at least when the codex comes out, if the model is released before that then yes, we will have multiple entries unless GW removes the 'old' entry from lists and points at the new one as a replacement)
Grimgold wrote: Anyone notice how expensive the lokhust heavy destroyer is, odds are heavy destroyers are getting the obliterator treatment, more wounds, better defense, bigger gun. Since they called them out as being different units, they don't mean the lokhust heavy destroyer to be a new version of the existing model. Having two data sheets for heavy destroyers might get a bit confusing so maybe the current heavy destroyers become an equipment option for normal destroyers.
If you ignore the 'Lokhust' part of the name it's just a Heavy Destroyer, which the FA slot Destroyers can take 1/unit as is.
Currently the 'normal' Haeavy Destroyers can be in units of 1-3. According to the Field Manual/Points page the 'Lokhust' is in units of 1-3. So it's probably an up-gunned version and not a situation of Destroyer/Heavy Destroyer/Lokhust Heavy Destroyer (at least when the codex comes out, if the model is released before that then yes, we will have multiple entries unless GW removes the 'old' entry from lists and points at the new one as a replacement)
Unless there's yet another kit lurking about I honestly think we're just down to the 1 floaty destroyer now, if the 2 gun options cover both elite infantry clearing and vehicle destroying options, it can do whatever the original 2 entries could anyway. I can't see what having another unit entry on the same chassis/niche will help with.
Grimgold wrote: Anyone notice how expensive the lokhust heavy destroyer is, odds are heavy destroyers are getting the obliterator treatment, more wounds, better defense, bigger gun. Since they called them out as being different units, they don't mean the lokhust heavy destroyer to be a new version of the existing model. Having two data sheets for heavy destroyers might get a bit confusing so maybe the current heavy destroyers become an equipment option for normal destroyers.
If you ignore the 'Lokhust' part of the name it's just a Heavy Destroyer, which the FA slot Destroyers can take 1/unit as is.
Currently the 'normal' Haeavy Destroyers can be in units of 1-3. According to the Field Manual/Points page the 'Lokhust' is in units of 1-3. So it's probably an up-gunned version and not a situation of Destroyer/Heavy Destroyer/Lokhust Heavy Destroyer (at least when the codex comes out, if the model is released before that then yes, we will have multiple entries unless GW removes the 'old' entry from lists and points at the new one as a replacement)
Unless there's yet another kit lurking about I honestly think we're just down to the 1 floaty destroyer now, if the 2 gun options cover both elite infantry clearing and vehicle destroying options, it can do whatever the original 2 entries could anyway. I can't see what having another unit entry on the same chassis/niche will help with.
We shall see, time will tell i guess. I wouldn't mind a lesser destroyer for killing light vehicles or heavy infantry because as it stands enmitic weapons so far have been high shot number med strength low AP low dam so could do with a med strength high Ap weapons med damage weapon
iGuy91 wrote: Five bucks says the Lokust Destroyer is this.
M 10
WS 3+
BS 3+
S 4
T 5
W 3
A 2
LD 10
Save 3+
Still have Hardwired Hatred etc to reroll 1s.
Gun is a Heavy Gauss Cannon, with the statline being reworked to be Heavy D3 shots, Str 9, AP-4, d6
I know GW is bad at balance, but if they make heavy destroyers go from 40 to 70 points, when they’re already bad, and give them the same stat line just with D3 shots, they might as well take them from the assembly line and put them straight into the bin. I mean, I’m not expecting them to be good or viable but I do expect they’ll be somewhat better than that. I’m expecting S5, probably W4 or 5, and the gun to be maybe Heavy 2 - i.e. still bad but with a reason for the raised points.
tneva82 wrote: Heavy destroyers bad? Lol. After ca19 put them to 39 they became very common in tournament lists
They became common because they’re cheaper than your only other realistic option for the slot, the Doomsday Ark, in an army with few options - and Necrons didn’t perform well post CA19 either. It’s still not a good idea to pay 37 points for a lascannon, and the fact that they’re some of our only anti-tank means they very often die turn one, so yes, I stand by my assessment. Compare them to haywire skyweavers, eradicators, kataphron destroyers, ironstriders, etc - all of which are either about as durable but more damaging or more durable point for point and about the same damage output. So, maybe not actively bad, but in an army which renders most heavy weapons bad against vehicles, they get destroyed by those weapons immediately, meaning they do nothing but stare menacingly at the opposing army for 1 turn before being put back into storage.
In any case, raising them to a price which is almost double their current one, in a situation where they were never played at 50 points would kill the unit unless they’re also buffed. Frankly, as they stand the gun could be assault 100 S20 AP-6 D10, and in half the games I’ve played it’d change nothing because they’ll have all been focused off the table in the alpha strike. We don’t just need better anti-tank, we need stuff which can actually stay on the table to fire. T5 W3 isn’t cutting the mustard in a world where marines can fire 12+2d6 S4 shots for 40 points. I wish it wasn’t the case, because destroyers are the models which made me start playing Necrons back in 3rd, but it is what it is.
When they showed the "Lokhust Heavy Destroyer" they said this:
Fitted with advanced optics and wielding gauss destructors and enmitic exterminators, Lokhusts are programmed to erase the heaviest opposition. Those powerful jets make them highly mobile, and the long reach of their weapons means they’ll be taking out their quarry and making for an especially resilient target.
But which is which, we don't know. There is a "long" sort of "in-line" gun and then the "stacked" parallel, taller one. I think the presumption could be made that the "stacked" gun is the "normal" Destroyer, and the "long" gun is Heavy Destroyer.
But which is called which? I'd guess a Gauss Destructor is the stacked one and the long-barrel is the Enmitic Exterminator. But that is an outright guess, based off nothing.
When they showed the "Lokhust Heavy Destroyer" they said this:
Fitted with advanced optics and wielding gauss destructors and enmitic exterminators, Lokhusts are programmed to erase the heaviest opposition. Those powerful jets make them highly mobile, and the long reach of their weapons means they’ll be taking out their quarry and making for an especially resilient target.
But which is which, we don't know. There is a "long" sort of "in-line" gun and then the "stacked" parallel, taller one. I think the presumption could be made that the "stacked" gun is the "normal" Destroyer, and the "long" gun is Heavy Destroyer.
But which is called which? I'd guess a Gauss Destructor is the stacked one and the long-barrel is the Enmitic Exterminator. But that is an outright guess, based off nothing.
Both those weapons are options for the Lokhust heavy destroyer, they have more than 1 option now, the Gauss one is the one that looks like a large Gauss Flayer and the Enmitic Exterminator is the one that looks like a larger version of the Skorpekh Lords Enmtic weapon
Kharne the Befriender wrote: Both those weapons are options for the Lokhust heavy destroyer, they have more than 1 option now, the Gauss one is the one that looks like a large Gauss Flayer and the Enmitic Exterminator is the one that looks like a larger version of the Skorpekh Lords Enmtic weapon
An interesting point. So, then there really isn't a Lokhust (not Heavy) Destroyer in that case.
I think it makes sense then, that a Lokhust is just a sort of Heavy Destroyer, with two weapon options.
Kharne the Befriender wrote: Both those weapons are options for the Lokhust heavy destroyer, they have more than 1 option now, the Gauss one is the one that looks like a large Gauss Flayer and the Enmitic Exterminator is the one that looks like a larger version of the Skorpekh Lords Enmtic weapon
An interesting point. So, then there really isn't a Lokhust (not Heavy) Destroyer in that case.
I think it makes sense then, that a Lokhust is just a sort of Heavy Destroyer, with two weapon options.
I still think we will see destroyers again, I just don't understand why they would give it heavy in its name and not have a non heavy variant.
I thought the old D.Lord was gonna get squatted but from what they've said it sounds like he's coming back as well with a new lokhust model so im hopeful that all current destroyers will be returning, as it stands im pretty sure we actually got more models the last time we got a major release so I wouldn't be surprised if we haven't seen everything yet
Automatically Appended Next Post: also something I was thinking about is that all hyperphase weapons revealed so far do at least 2 damage so does any one else think the old hyperhase swords on our lychguard might be getting a buff as well
Kharne the Befriender wrote: Both those weapons are options for the Lokhust heavy destroyer, they have more than 1 option now, the Gauss one is the one that looks like a large Gauss Flayer and the Enmitic Exterminator is the one that looks like a larger version of the Skorpekh Lords Enmtic weapon
An interesting point. So, then there really isn't a Lokhust (not Heavy) Destroyer in that case.
I think it makes sense then, that a Lokhust is just a sort of Heavy Destroyer, with two weapon options.
I think Lokhust is supposed to be the Chassis, under lack of a better term, much like we have Skorpekh as a Chassis.
It serves to reason, with a Skorpekh Lord and a Skorpekh pleb, confirmed existence of a Lokhust Heavy, and the mention of a Lokhust Lord, that we'd have a Lokhust pleb as well.
This was already discussed months ago on twitch. They said skorpekhs were the tripod cc destroyers, lokhust were the current hovering destroyers, and there's a third variation that nobody is giving info on. Some people think it's the unit lurking behind the monolith in the preview photos.
I got an interesting idea on necron warriors. Maybe I can run it by all the necron players here. Necron warriors are actually pretty good, and the absolute best candidate for reanimation protocols. A smart opponent who knows how powerful reanimation protocols is, will try and make sure he wipes out necron warrior squads completely in one turn so that there is no chance of using RP.
Conversely, if we can weaken our opponent's firepower to the point where he finds it extremely difficult to wipe out a squad of 20 necron warriors in one turn, then suddenly, we can bring the full power of RP to bear, plus this effectively makes our necron warriors squads immortal once we reach that point.
So, how about designing a list that has a strong strike element that is in the opponent's face, and also has good firepower. The objective of this strike element is to reduce the opponent's infantry slaying capabilities to the point where our Necron warrior squads will then become unkillable. Plus, because they are fast and in your face, they will likely also draw a lot of / most of the opponent's shooting and melee.
So, simplistically, for example, lets say this strike force consists of Wraiths and destroyers. The idea is to keep your necron warriors behind obscuring terrain on turn 1, and maybe even turn 2. Hide them, I think its unlikely that one thunderfire cannon alone is going to be enough to take out 20 necron warrior squads especially if no other units can shoot it. So, since the necron warrior squads are hidden turn 1 and 2, while your wraths and destroyers all charge to the midboard and try and kill as much infantry killers as possible. The opponent will most likely focus on destroying your wraiths and destroyers.
The key idea is ... it doesn't matter even if this strike force is totally wiped out as long as they have achieved their purpose. Primary purpose, kill infantry killers and force all the attention on them.
Now, what happens when we are in turn 3, and now your opponent has his heavy support (lascannons, etc) and a severely diminished infantry killing ability. He didn't manage to get much points from mid board because all your wraiths and destroyers were there mixing it up.
Now, even though your strike force is dead, you still got mostly intact squads of big 20 man necron warriors who are obsec. Which your opponent now cannot kill because he no longer has enough firepower to wipe out a 20 man squad. Maybe he still has a lot of his heavy support left. But Necron warrior squads aren't afraid of a couple of lascannons shot. Even 10 or 12 shots are no big deal. As long as the squad doesn't die, can just reanimate it all back.
So now, our 20 man necron warrior squads can move into the midboard and dominate it, while bringing their guns to bear. At a point in time where suddenly, RP now become totally powerful and in fact the game winner. Imagine your opponent trying his best now, and only killing 19 warriors , and leaving 1, and your turn, most of the squad all comes back.
Interesting idea for sure and needs to be tested in real games to see how well it works.
Wasn't it already leaked that RP will work even on completely wiped out squads? The trade off being you can only roll for models that have been killed in this round.
As I see it the issue is people tried that at the start of 8th (and I guess all the way through) - and it didn't work. Partly this was because of the high costs for what you got back then - but really because you end up with these sort of "wave lists" - which were not especially hard for your opponent to deal with.
So when facing Necrons:
Turn 1 - kill Tomb Blades and put some shots into Wraiths.
Turn 2, Destroyers are probably DSing in (because otherwise you focus them instead) and will almost certainly kill something. Unfortunately for the Necron player, since they have a substantial footprint, its usually pretty obvious where they are going to go and now the rest of your army nukes them and mops up any of the surviving units above.
Turn 3. Necron Warriors with character support are finally getting up the table to be a threat - but the Necron Army hasn't done much to me, so its trivial to just destroy one unit after another for the rest of the game.
If the Necron player went first maybe they will inflict some damage - but if they went second, it was usually a horrible one-sided affair, because I have 2000 synergised points going into three rather unsupported forces. If say you were unlucky and they got RP off? And it raised 10 necron warriors or something? Just kill them next turn.
I don't know if everyone remembers the very excitable moment when the 8th edition indexes were leaked where people all across the internet *proved* Necrons would be overpowered, because it was hard (without specifically building for it) to *kill* a Necron squad with *only* 240 points of your own forces.
As people found more or less on game 1 though, the game isn't a succession of duels between 250~ point groups. Instead you can focus 600-800 points of just about anything into Necron warriors, and they get wiped just like anything else. Unless you're opponent has a list composed entirely of lascannons, its unclear why that wouldn't be the case now.
Really the problem with big blobs of Necron Warriors is that they are expensive and inflexible for what you get. Their shooting is respectable in rapid fire range, but not great outside it and unfortunately, left to their own devices, they are slow. They also can't really fight their way out of a paper bag. Things like the Royal Warden may help that - but losing 240 points of shooting because someone ran a rhino/wave serpent or even a relatively derisory number of infantry into you hurts.
With that said, smaller tables and more objectives may help - because your opponent will be compelled into the middle of the table and so the rapid fire range of your guns - but I wouldn't be trusting to RP.
a_typical_hero wrote: Interesting idea for sure and needs to be tested in real games to see how well it works.
Wasn't it already leaked that RP will work even on completely wiped out squads? The trade off being you can only roll for models that have been killed in this round.
Or was that debunked already?
Uh no we have heard no official word whatsoever. Not even rumour. Only speculation.
punisher357 wrote: This was already discussed months ago on twitch. They said skorpekhs were the tripod cc destroyers, lokhust were the current hovering destroyers, and there's a third variation that nobody is giving info on. Some people think it's the unit lurking behind the monolith in the preview photos.
The thing behind the monolith feels more Canoptek to me then destroyer cult. Unless it's some kind of anti psyker destroyer model
punisher357 wrote: This was already discussed months ago on twitch. They said skorpekhs were the tripod cc destroyers, lokhust were the current hovering destroyers, and there's a third variation that nobody is giving info on. Some people think it's the unit lurking behind the monolith in the preview photos.
The thing behind the monolith feels more Canoptek to me then destroyer cult. Unless it's some kind of anti psyker destroyer model
While it's hard to tell, it's face looks like it has the Necron shape and Jaw style, compared to a Canoptek one.
punisher357 wrote: This was already discussed months ago on twitch. They said skorpekhs were the tripod cc destroyers, lokhust were the current hovering destroyers, and there's a third variation that nobody is giving info on. Some people think it's the unit lurking behind the monolith in the preview photos.
The thing behind the monolith feels more Canoptek to me then destroyer cult. Unless it's some kind of anti psyker destroyer model
While it's hard to tell, it's face looks like it has the Necron shape and Jaw style, compared to a Canoptek one.
Well I'm thinking its a Construct similar to Cryptothralls as they themselves have the canoptek keyword, also it appears to mount some esoteric technologies on it.
To me destroyers are big and intimidating whereas this is more weird looking
Also on a side note since cryptothralls have canoptek and infantry keywords they in theory could move 24" in one turn
5+1 for Overlord +6 advance and then activate adaptive subroutines to allow them to still fire pistols and charge
Eyjio wrote: Been combing through the crusade upgrade stuff trying to spot any hints, using an AI rescaler to try and make it readable, though its still really blurry so some words may be off. Could probably reverse engineer it all if I knew the font but whatever, it's not that much more info. Here's a few tidbits which might be interesting, including fluff text in case I mess up the real rules:
Canoptek Units Trait 5-6: Self-regenerator Nodes Augmented with advanced matter replication capacitors, these Canoptek constructs can swiftly repair themselves in battle. Each time you make Reanimation Protocol rolls for this unit, you can change a single dice result to a 6.
I thought that was interesting, as Canoptek units don't have RP and haven't since the 7th ed decurion formation they got. Looks like at least some will!
Cryptothralls are a Canoptek unit with RP, the question is if any others will get it.
Thanks for contacting us and there is no need to worry. We are just in the process of repackaging the stalker but it should be available to order again within the next couple of weeks.
Now with a repack it might be that its price is going up to be similar to the other centipede walker; it might also be that they are doing something with the guns as it does use the green-glow-rod design which is clearly being phased out by GW, which would mean that they want to stop production of them and not have to keep them going for the FW offering.
Thanks for contacting us and there is no need to worry. We are just in the process of repackaging the stalker but it should be available to order again within the next couple of weeks.
Now with a repack it might be that its price is going up to be similar to the other centipede walker; it might also be that they are doing something with the guns as it does use the green-glow-rod design which is clearly being phased out by GW, which would mean that they want to stop production of them and not have to keep them going for the FW offering.
Oh, that is good news. I was honestly pretty surprised that it was going away. I'm guessing they may be replacing the green rods.
"The Silent King formed a new Triarch with Hapthatra the Radiant and Mesophet of the Shadowed Hand, who join him in battle atop the Dias (sic) of Dominion."
Is it not amazingly exciting when a former background character teams up with McNobody and Nonexistia to... pose for a selfie?
Honestly what they need to do is flesh out the existing dynasties to make them more distinctive, rather than constantly guess which dynasty that start with an N actually matters.
vipoid wrote: "The Silent King formed a new Triarch with Hapthatra the Radiant and Mesophet of the Shadowed Hand, who join him in battle atop the Dias (sic) of Dominion."
Er... good?
I remember another character who used to ride a dias of destruction...
Continue to be kind of non-plussed. Obviously not a bad model, but I think its confirming how much weird hats go to make a character. The idea that this is 3 characters rather than big cheese and two minions sort of further highlights just how.. non-special they appear.
Really not a big fan of the Silent King model to be honest, and the more I look at it, the more it just looks like he's going "BEHOLD! ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!" There's no way I would have guessed the models next to him were meant to be the Triarch, none of them have any degree of ornate decoration that you might expect, just normal Overlord stuff - which are also some of our weaker designs IMO. They don't radiate power or seem intimidating, they just look bored; the Silent King especially doesn't even seem angry, more shocked. Also the front view of the Silent King makes that bit of his crown look like a horn. I dunno, I just expected him to have something like fake golden armour, a tall collar, broader pauldrons, or anything which might denote a king other than a cape and silly hat. Really disappointing.
The void dragon on the other hand, whilst I understand that a lot of people might have wanted a literal dragon, is one of my favourite models GW has ever made, and sits right up there for me with this old Necron Lord, which along with the Nightbringer and Destroyers is one of the models which sold me on Necrons:
So yeah, mixed emotions on it all. Might try to convert something onto the Silent King to make him look cooler.
Eyjio wrote: Really not a big fan of the Silent King model to be honest, and the more I look at it, the more it just looks like he's going "BEHOLD! ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!" There's no way I would have guessed the models next to him were meant to be the Triarch, none of them have any degree of ornate decoration that you might expect, just normal Overlord stuff - which are also some of our weaker designs IMO. They don't radiate power or seem intimidating, they just look bored; the Silent King especially doesn't even seem angry, more shocked. Also the front view of the Silent King makes that bit of his crown look like a horn. I dunno, I just expected him to have something like fake golden armour, a tall collar, broader pauldrons, or anything which might denote a king other than a cape and silly hat. Really disappointing.
The void dragon on the other hand, whilst I understand that a lot of people might have wanted a literal dragon, is one of my favourite models GW has ever made, and sits right up there for me with this old Necron Lord, which along with the Nightbringer and Destroyers is one of the models which sold me on Necrons:
So yeah, mixed emotions on it all. Might try to convert something onto the Silent King to make him look cooler.
Yeah i agree, his fellow "overlords" look a lot more like crypteks
vipoid wrote: "The Silent King formed a new Triarch with Hapthatra the Radiant and Mesophet of the Shadowed Hand, who join him in battle atop the Dias (sic) of Dominion."
Er... good?
I remember another character who used to ride a dias of destruction...
Continue to be kind of non-plussed. Obviously not a bad model, but I think its confirming how much weird hats go to make a character. The idea that this is 3 characters rather than big cheese and two minions sort of further highlights just how.. non-special they appear.
Its a 'centerpiece' model that manages to be boring. Big dude stands on a random floating chunk of building, while his pet stenographers type away on unnecessary keyboards, and a screaming torso draws attention away from the titular character.
It doesn't help that the last codex built up the other 'S' dynasty as the big important one, and the Silent King's big plan is to... not play anymore. Stop being evil robots, get new flesh sacks and... go farm or something. Sure, he'll psychically oppress other species in the process, but his goal of finding a nice quiet island where the warp can't bother him is incompatible with actually playing 40k.
I think it's pretty freaking metal with a hell of a lot of cool things going on, so it seems hardly boring. It's certainly one of the better ones as far as centrepiece models go. But that's just me.
I just can't get past 'three guys hold art-deco 'pole-arms' on a balcony, two are hunched over consoles, one poses for selfies'
The putty lightning torso adds... something else to look at, I guess?
Silent King Bob may or may not have a shark fin on top of his head? Which may or may not have folded out from his head (leaving the empty groove), like a He-man villain?
Eyjio wrote: Really not a big fan of the Silent King model to be honest, and the more I look at it, the more it just looks like he's going "BEHOLD! ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!" There's no way I would have guessed the models next to him were meant to be the Triarch, none of them have any degree of ornate decoration that you might expect, just normal Overlord stuff - which are also some of our weaker designs IMO. They don't radiate power or seem intimidating, they just look bored; the Silent King especially doesn't even seem angry, more shocked. Also the front view of the Silent King makes that bit of his crown look like a horn. I dunno, I just expected him to have something like fake golden armour, a tall collar, broader pauldrons, or anything which might denote a king other than a cape and silly hat. Really disappointing.
Same. Until GW came out and said it, I had no idea that the two other models were supposed to by anything special. I just assumed they were pilots or something (no different to those of the Annihilation Barge).
Then again, if it wasn't for his oversized cape and lollipop-staff, I wouldn't think the Silent King model was anything special either.
Eyjio wrote: Really not a big fan of the Silent King model to be honest, and the more I look at it, the more it just looks like he's going "BEHOLD! ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!" There's no way I would have guessed the models next to him were meant to be the Triarch, none of them have any degree of ornate decoration that you might expect, just normal Overlord stuff - which are also some of our weaker designs IMO. They don't radiate power or seem intimidating, they just look bored; the Silent King especially doesn't even seem angry, more shocked. Also the front view of the Silent King makes that bit of his crown look like a horn. I dunno, I just expected him to have something like fake golden armour, a tall collar, broader pauldrons, or anything which might denote a king other than a cape and silly hat. Really disappointing.
Same. Until GW came out and said it, I had no idea that the two other models were supposed to by anything special. I just assumed they were pilots or something (no different to those of the Annihilation Barge).
Then again, if it wasn't for his oversized cape and lollipop-staff, I wouldn't think the Silent King model was anything special either.
Well, that was probably because the predecessors of Hapthatra and Mesophet died 60 million years ago. That was just a wee bit more extra time to find suitable replacements than what was actually needed
Honestly my favorite thing about the Silent King model is the two floating shield pylons. It'd be cool to get those as just autonomous floating shield projectors that move alongside phalanxes of Warriors giving them an invuln. The rest of the Dias can stay at home, imo.
I personally like the new model, it strikes all the right chords for me. But there's only 2 things I dislike, the C'tan and the green, which in and of itself doesnt bother me too much as it'll be replaced with red and orange. But the C'tan... Maybe I'll paint it red/orange and dry brush silver on it? I dont know, might just remove it for a crystal
unitled wrote: Look, it's obvious: we've had Skorpekhs (scorpions), lokhust (locusts), next we've either got Frog Destroyers or River of Blood Destroyers.
Haha! Awesome.
Have an exalt.
Though does funnily play into the Spacegyptians theme.
All the old easy to build stuff is going, which makes me think that we are going to get a whole bunch of new kits to supplement the starter. The last ones were a good value, so it makes me hopeful.
Or is being reboxed for 9th edition, which gives the product a new SKU and the old one is discontinued.
Egyptian Space Zombie wrote: ... which makes me think that we are going to get a whole bunch of new kits to supplement the starter. The last ones were a good value, so it makes me hopeful.
Warhammer Community has already confirmed Easy to Build Invader ATV and Firestrike Servo-turret for Space Marines and Lokhust Heavy Destroyer and Canoptek Doomstalker for Necrons.
Honestly I'm already planning to convert the Silent King with bits from that very similar Nighthaunt guy on a floating throne so I might just not put his two nobodies on and use them as generic crypteks or something.
I wonder how big the Silent King is off his throne and compared to Abaddon and Guilliman. I'm guessing he's not going to be much bigger than a normal overlord.
Sim-Life wrote: Honestly I'm already planning to convert the Silent King with bits from that very similar Nighthaunt guy on a floating throne so I might just not put his two nobodies on and use them as generic crypteks or something.
I wonder how big the Silent King is off his throne and compared to Abaddon and Guilliman. I'm guessing he's not going to be much bigger than a normal overlord.
I expect he'll stand a good bit taller than a normal Overlord. I reckon he'll be head and shoulders above.
However, I was very much considering doing away with the attendants and replacing them with actual connected pilots like in the CCBs. The kit shall have to be inspected.
Sasori wrote: Hoping we get some news about the Lokhust and the DDS this week or next week.
Would be really nice if we could get those kits sooner!
I expect that a bunch of the non-Indomitus sculpts will come with the codex in October. The rest will come a few months later. Same way they did Sisters.
Sasori wrote: Hoping we get some news about the Lokhust and the DDS this week or next week.
Would be really nice if we could get those kits sooner!
I expect that a bunch of the non-Indomitus sculpts will come with the codex in October. The rest will come a few months later. Same way they did Sisters.
That's not how they did Sisters though...
Sisters got launched with a big box that had a codex in it. It had easy build versions of key units.
When the codex became available by itself? That's when the Sisters launch actually started with the full kits.
It's similar to how Lumineth are being done: army pack first with LE book, book plus models later.
Sasori wrote: Hoping we get some news about the Lokhust and the DDS this week or next week.
Would be really nice if we could get those kits sooner!
I expect that a bunch of the non-Indomitus sculpts will come with the codex in October. The rest will come a few months later. Same way they did Sisters.
That's not how they did Sisters though...
Sisters got launched with a big box that had a codex in it. It had easy build versions of key units.
When the codex became available by itself? That's when the Sisters launch actually started with the full kits.
It's similar to how Lumineth are being done: army pack first with LE book, book plus models later.
The actual Sisters launch was in January 2020 and the early box was just something they shoved out early to keep their "Sisters in 2019" promise.
The actual Sisters launch was in January 2020 and the early box was just something they shoved out early to keep their "Sisters in 2019" promise.
And yet here we are seeing them do it with Lumineth and Indomitus...
You're wrong. The launch was the army pack. That wasn't something they just "shoved out early". The books came from a printer in China that has a 5-6 month lead time.
130 points seems pretty solid for the Doomstalker. While it's BS4+, notably it doesn't degrade.
The Gauss Destructor is interesting to say the least... 1 Shot at min 3 Damage is pretty decent, and has the ability to do significantly more. It's just one shot a piece though.
The Enmitic weapon seems pretty bad. If it was damage 2 I'd consider it, but just -1 AP D1 and it's not even strength 8 doesn't seem very good.
130 points seems pretty solid for the Doomstalker. While it's BS4+, notably it doesn't degrade.
The Gauss Destructor is interesting to say the least... 1 Shot at min 3 Damage is pretty decent, and has the ability to do significantly more. It's just one shot a piece though.
The Enmitic weapon seems pretty bad. If it was damage 2 I'd consider it, but just -1 AP D1 and it's not even strength 8 doesn't seem very good.
Where are these images from? It seems weird that the enmitic weapon isn't blast like the skorpekh lord's
130 points seems pretty solid for the Doomstalker. While it's BS4+, notably it doesn't degrade.
The Gauss Destructor is interesting to say the least... 1 Shot at min 3 Damage is pretty decent, and has the ability to do significantly more. It's just one shot a piece though.
The Enmitic weapon seems pretty bad. If it was damage 2 I'd consider it, but just -1 AP D1 and it's not even strength 8 doesn't seem very good.
Where are these images from? It seems weird that the enmitic weapon isn't blast like the skorpekh lord's
Its a different weapon. I don't get GW's logic on this, but the Skorpekh lord has very similar but slightly different weapons.
His gun is 2d3 rather than 3d3 and S6 rather than 7.
And his harvester is exactly like the reap-blade on the skorpekh destroyers, but has -1 to hit.
The lokhusts Enmitic Exterminator is actually functionally more like the particle shredder (heavy 6, S7, -1AP, D1d3) than the lord's Enmitic Annihilator.
And sadly, the only reason we have for any of it is 'because reasons.'
Which is why we're also getting a sawn-off shotgun version of the DDA in the Doomstalker. Same role, cooler model, because feth-all, that's why.
130 points seems pretty solid for the Doomstalker. While it's BS4+, notably it doesn't degrade.
The Gauss Destructor is interesting to say the least... 1 Shot at min 3 Damage is pretty decent, and has the ability to do significantly more. It's just one shot a piece though.
The Enmitic weapon seems pretty bad. If it was damage 2 I'd consider it, but just -1 AP D1 and it's not even strength 8 doesn't seem very good.
Where are these images from? It seems weird that the enmitic weapon isn't blast like the skorpekh lord's
Its a different weapon. I don't get GW's logic on this, but the Skorpekh lord has very similar but slightly different weapons.
His gun is 2d3 rather than 3d3 and S6 rather than 7.
And his harvester is exactly like the reap-blade on the skorpekh destroyers, but has -1 to hit.
The lokhusts Enmitic Exterminator is actually functionally more like the particle shredder (heavy 6, S7, -1AP, D1d3) than the lord's Enmitic Annihilator.
And sadly, the only reason we have for any of it is 'because reasons.'
Which is why we're also getting a sawn-off shotgun version of the DDA in the Doomstalker. Same role, cooler model, because feth-all, that's why.
Some make sense. The lord's Harvester is -1 to hit because it's strength 8 base, which is pretty typical. The Reap Blade has to have the Plasmacyte infusion to reach strength 8 since it's strength 7 base, so there is risk involved.
Not having blast is a little weird, but it would only go into effect on 11+ models since it's min 3 shots.
There may be some significant playstyles involved between Canoptekh units and vehicles, which may be the diffrence between the DDA and DDS. I could see one of our protocols boosts WS and BS of Canoptekh units across the board for instance.
Let's assume for a moment that nothing changes in terms of Doomsday Arks, but that heavy destroyers disappear. Let's do some comparisons:
Canoptek Doomstalker is T6 W12 3+/5++, for 130 points. Doomsday Ark is T6 W14 4+ QS for 180 points.
Both basically have the same gun, with d6 S10 AP-5 Dd6 at a range covering most of the board, and a d6 S8 AP-2 D3 profile you hope to very rarely actually use. However, the Doomstalker is hard to hide, and hard to hide from - probably a wash. For secondary guns, the Doomsday Ark is obviously best, it has an additional 8 rapid fire shots at the same strength, making any comparison almost laughable. This makes the Doomsday Ark slightly better overall in terms of damage per point, but it's very marginal.
In terms of QS vs a 5++, it's not entirely clear which is better. Against a D3/Dd6 gun, QS is much better, but against D2/Dd3, you tend to want that 5++. Again, I'd likely call it a wash but the Doomsday Ark has to take it as low damage guns usually have worse AP, barring plasma, meaning you save then QS which is clearly better. That said, you're paying 50 points, so ~38.5% more for ~16.7% more wounds and QS. The Doomstalker also doesn't get living metal which is a real shame.
So, all this seems pretty even. Now here comes the killer: the way they suffer damage. The Doomstalker never loses BS skill as it degrades, meaning you're always firing at full effectiveness until you die; conversely, the Doomsday Ark loses BS when it hits half wounds. It shouldn't come into effect very often, as people really should aim to kill both on the turn they start shooting them, but if that doesn't happen, that's a major advantage to the Doomstalker. Likewise, the Doomstalker doesn't potentially explode and kill your own stuff which is very nice. Final observation - it doesn't say the Doomstalker's gun is blast, and it's a monster; potential for cheesing it against some opponents and charging into combat with an overextended tank? Not an ideal move, but not being totally crippled in combat is a bonus.
Overall, it's cheaper and does a similar job. I expect them to become the go to tank killer, and I've very happy about that because it's an awesome looking model. Really cool stuff and a welcome effective points cut on our anti-tank, it's really nasty.
Now for the bad one. The Lokhust Heavy Destroyer is T5 W4 3+ for 70 points. Heavy Destroyers are T5 W3 3+ for 40 points.
Heavy Destroyers fire 2 S9 AP-4 Dd6 shots. Lokhust Heavy Destroyers fire 1 S10 AP-4 D3d3 shot. I hope it doesn't need to be said, but clearly option 1 is superior, and not by a small margin. For comparison, against a Leman Russ, the expectation for the first is 2(7/9)(2/3)3.5 = 98/27 = ~3.63 damage; the second does (7/9)(2/3)6 = 28/9 = ~3.11. That's a 16.7% less efficient shot with higher variance (lol at BS3+ still, on a single shot 70 point model, thanks GW) for a 12.5% decrease in price. The Lokhust loses the comparison handily.
Survivability - I mean, do I have to? You can tell the difference between 4 and 6 wounds, right? You have ~66.7% of your wounds for 87.5% of the points. That's awful. Heavy Destroyers already got deleted, this is even worse for nearly the same points. No.
Bonus round: it's also slower for no discernible reason! Hurray, a pointless nerf on a unit which was already worse than other factions equivalents! In short, they took a model which was often avoided for the Doomsday Ark, made a cheaper Doomsday Ark, and made this bad. It might be useable at 50 points, in Chapter Approved 2021. Until then, bin. Don't even get me started on the hot gak that is the enmitic annihilator, which isn't even as good at the destroyers gun against anything with W2, and destroyers are also not played. The rules make no sense for this guy unless there's some secret hidden ability which just makes you autohit - and even then, it's not great. I'm trying to even figure out what would make it playable at 70 points with T5 W4, maybe like a 4++? Even then, kinda awful. I dunno, bad design.
Bosskelot wrote: In what world do Heavy Destroyers get 2 shots with their guns?
Pretty sure he is calculating 2 heavy d's since they are roughly the same cost as one Lokhust.
Yeah, exactly this, sorry for being unclear. In any case, it's a significant nerf to them for, as far as I can see, no reason at all. 1 S10 shot is just awful, you increase variance by so much.
But it seems clear this is will replace the current destroyers
The current Heavy Destroyers, sure. There's most likely a not-ETB Lokhust Destroyer kit that will replace the standard Destroyers.
I'm thinking that the Lokhust Heavy Destroyer with the Enmitic Exterminator is the replacement for the 'normal' Destroyer with Gauss Cannon.
I wouldn't be so sure. Unless they are are effectively making all current destroyers heavy support and then out fast attack slot will lost its only heavy hitter leaving us with wraiths, scarabs and tomb blades.
The Enmitic Exterminator has on average 6 shots, which wound better against T6 or higher models but have a much lower ap and damage for 70pts versus the current destroyers 55pts.
Also it has heavy in its name, if they were replacing both why not call it lohkust Destroyer, the Doomsday Ark isn't called heavy doosmday ark just cause its heavily armed
Bosskelot wrote: The lack of blast definitely seems like an oversight and will probably be FAQ'd.
Actually, I think it might be intentional.
A lot of people here are saying there's no point in taking DDA because the Doomstalker has pretty much the same weapon, except shorter ranged.
What I'm thinking is that GW foresaw this, so they gave the Doomsday Cannon blast but left it out for the blaster variant, meaning that if you want anti-hoard you still want to take DDAs.
Bosskelot wrote: The lack of blast definitely seems like an oversight and will probably be FAQ'd.
Actually, I think it might be intentional.
A lot of people here are saying there's no point in taking DDA because the Doomstalker has pretty much the same weapon, except shorter ranged.
What I'm thinking is that GW foresaw this, so they gave the Doomsday Cannon blast but left it out for the blaster variant, meaning that if you want anti-hoard you still want to take DDAs.
It's also possible that they wanted the blast for this variant to be tied to a stratagem.
It's too bad the rules are cut off for the heavy destroyer might really make a difference in our estimations of it. It probably has living metal, RP, no penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons, and reroll ones to hit.
At 3d3 shots the exterminator ends up with on average being a str 7 twin linked heavy bolter. That should be no less than 20 points (10 per heavy bolter) at the going rate, so we'll call it a 25 point weapon since the strength is higher. That means we are paying 45 points for the heavy destroyer chassis, which puts it into line with the outriders from indomitus who are also t5 and 4 wounds.
So I can see how they arrived at that price, and it's not unreasonable for what you get, however I'm just not sold on it. Barring any specific stratagems, I don't think these guys are as cost effective as other options we have. They feel kind of iffy even with extermination protocols because of the small unit size and the high variability in number of shots and/or damage.
I think they might be 5 to 10 points too high, so enough that you won't see them in hyper competitive armies, but a small enough cost overrun that you don't have to feel dumb running them *cough cough*Obelisk.
Bosskelot wrote: The lack of blast definitely seems like an oversight and will probably be FAQ'd.
Actually, I think it might be intentional.
A lot of people here are saying there's no point in taking DDA because the Doomstalker has pretty much the same weapon, except shorter ranged.
What I'm thinking is that GW foresaw this, so they gave the Doomsday Cannon blast but left it out for the blaster variant, meaning that if you want anti-hoard you still want to take DDAs.
You don't shoot dda at horde. Blast in dda is liability.
Still i would be asking why would i take stalker over dda. Worse guns, worse survivability. Only benefit is lack of blast.
Yeah bs4 is what kills it for me and lack of speed compared to a dda. Dda just have too much versatility as they cover anti tank and horde. I also hope we keep the old destroyers not liking the new weapons/price
Grimgold wrote: It's too bad the rules are cut off for the heavy destroyer might really make a difference in our estimations of it. It probably has living metal, RP, no penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons, and reroll ones to hit.
At 3d3 shots the exterminator ends up with on average being a str 7 twin linked heavy bolter. That should be no less than 20 points (10 per heavy bolter) at the going rate, so we'll call it a 25 point weapon since the strength is higher. .
A more apt comparison is the Particle Shredder- that other gun option on the Triarch Stalker. Heavy6 S7, Ap-1, d3 damage. That's actually better due to the damage stat, and I don't think people have really taken it much.
That is sitting at 25 points in CA2020
The big gun will average a lot of damage, but single shot for 70 freaking points is very high. You can almost fit two (current) heavy destroyers at that price.
I'm assuming it gets those rules you mention and it still seems overpriced in comparison to other things in the codex. And now we have evidence that existing units are also being improved, so that muddies the water further.
For the Doomstalker vs DDA debate. I wonder what the 'mini death rays' on the new Monolith are going to look like.
They're changing up this codex in ways I didn't anticipate.
Still a lot of comparisons and comments without seeing the full picture of all the new protocols and dynastic rules in the new codex. There may be something to make the new heavy destroyer seems a little less of a liability... or maybe not. I guess we'll find out in October.
Grimgold wrote: It's too bad the rules are cut off for the heavy destroyer might really make a difference in our estimations of it. It probably has living metal, RP, no penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons, and reroll ones to hit.
At 3d3 shots the exterminator ends up with on average being a str 7 twin linked heavy bolter. That should be no less than 20 points (10 per heavy bolter) at the going rate, so we'll call it a 25 point weapon since the strength is higher. .
A more apt comparison is the Particle Shredder- that other gun option on the Triarch Stalker. Heavy6 S7, Ap-1, d3 damage. That's actually better due to the damage stat, and I don't think people have really taken it much. That is sitting at 25 points in CA2020
The big gun will average a lot of damage, but single shot for 70 freaking points is very high. You can almost fit two (current) heavy destroyers at that price. I'm assuming it gets those rules you mention and it still seems overpriced in comparison to other things in the codex. And now we have evidence that existing units are also being improved, so that muddies the water further.
For the Doomstalker vs DDA debate. I wonder what the 'mini death rays' on the new Monolith are going to look like. They're changing up this codex in ways I didn't anticipate.
I saw something about new vs old destroyer being samey in terms of damage inflicted compared to the old heavy gauss cannon variety. Let me check the math
New destroyer v t8 3+ (2/3 + (1/6 * 2/3)) * 2/3 * 6 = 3.1 average damage per shot
Old destroyer v t8 3+ (2/3 + (1/6 * 2/3)) * 2/3 * 3.5 = 1.8 average damage per shot
So you end up with 22 points spent per damage on the new guy, vs 22 points spent per damage on the old guy. It's like GW can do math, and intentionally put the new heavy destroyer and the old heavy destroyer into the same performance band. The issue is I don't know if you get a proportional amount of toughness out of the new units, and this is a little harder to pin down. Damage per shot doesn't really work in these calcs since there can be significant wastage down range, so instead let's figure out the average number of hits it takes to kill each of them and compare that to the number of points per unit:
The old heavy destroyer has a 1/3 chance of surviving one las cannon hit, and a 1/36 chance of surviving two. that means a 66% chance of a one hit kill, a 30% chance of a two hit kill, and 3% chance of taking three hits. so an average of 1.32 hits per kill.
The new heavy destroyer has a 1/2 chance of surviving on las cannon hit, a 1/6 chance of surviving two, and a 1/216 chance of surviving three hits. so that means 50% chance of a one hit kill, 42% chance of taking two hits, a 7.6% chance of a three hit kill, and a 0.4% chance of a four hit kill. so 1.7 hits to a kill
old heavy destroyer It take 1.32 hits to kill a 40 point unit so 30 points per shot new heavy destroyer it takes 1.7 hits to kill a 70 point unit so 41 points per shot old normal destroyer it takes 1.32 hots to kill a 55 point unit so 41 points per shot
Again I don't think the numbers lining up exactly is a coincidence, they wanted the new heavy destroyer to have the offensive profile of the old heavy destroyer and the defensive profile of a normal destroyer against the weapon type it will most commonly face.
I think you need to be careful in comparing them points-wise too as, yes, the old HD is almost half the cost, but you're still only taking them in units of 1-3. How many times were you taking multiple units of HD's to begin with?
Grimgold wrote: It's too bad the rules are cut off for the heavy destroyer might really make a difference in our estimations of it. It probably has living metal, RP, no penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons, and reroll ones to hit.
At 3d3 shots the exterminator ends up with on average being a str 7 twin linked heavy bolter. That should be no less than 20 points (10 per heavy bolter) at the going rate, so we'll call it a 25 point weapon since the strength is higher. .
A more apt comparison is the Particle Shredder- that other gun option on the Triarch Stalker. Heavy6 S7, Ap-1, d3 damage. That's actually better due to the damage stat, and I don't think people have really taken it much.
That is sitting at 25 points in CA2020
The big gun will average a lot of damage, but single shot for 70 freaking points is very high. You can almost fit two (current) heavy destroyers at that price.
I'm assuming it gets those rules you mention and it still seems overpriced in comparison to other things in the codex. And now we have evidence that existing units are also being improved, so that muddies the water further.
For the Doomstalker vs DDA debate. I wonder what the 'mini death rays' on the new Monolith are going to look like.
They're changing up this codex in ways I didn't anticipate.
I saw something about new vs old destroyer being samey in terms of damage inflicted compared to the old heavy gauss cannon variety. Let me check the math
New destroyer v t8 3+
(2/3 + (1/6 * 2/3)) * 2/3 * 6 = 3.1 average damage per shot
Old destroyer v t8 3+
(2/3 + (1/6 * 2/3)) * 2/3 * 3.5 = 1.8 average damage per shot
So you end up with 22 points spent per damage on the new guy, vs 22 points spent per damage on the old guy. It's like GW can do math, and intentionally put the new heavy destroyer and the old heavy destroyer into the same performance band. The issue is I don't know if you get a proportional amount of toughness out of the new units, and this is a little harder to pin down. Damage per shot doesn't really work in these calcs since there can be significant wastage down range, so instead let's figure out the average number of hits it takes to kill each of them and compare that to the number of points per unit:
The old heavy destroyer has a 1/3 chance of surviving one las cannon hit, and a 1/36 chance of surviving two. that means a 66% chance of a one hit kill, a 30% chance of a two hit kill, and 3% chance of taking three hits. so an average of 1.32 hits per kill.
The new heavy destroyer has a 1/2 chance of surviving on las cannon hit, a 1/6 chance of surviving two, and a 1/216 chance of surviving three hits. so that means 50% chance of a one hit kill, 42% chance of taking two hits, a 7.6% chance of a three hit kill, and a 0.4% chance of a four hit kill. so 1.7 hits to a kill
old heavy destroyer It take 1.32 hits to kill a 40 point unit so 30 points per shot
new heavy destroyer it takes 1.7 hits to kill a 70 point unit so 41 points per shot
old normal destroyer it takes 1.32 hots to kill a 55 point unit so 41 points per shot
Again I don't think the numbers lining up exactly is a coincidence, they wanted the new heavy destroyer to have the offensive profile of the old heavy destroyer and the defensive profile of a normal destroyer against the weapon type it will most commonly face.
Could you say something about the variance of the damage output.
It can be nice to be able to bring some stable and some variable damage dealers. For example you start your shooting by firing the higher variance shooters, proabbly the HDs, and lo and behold, they roll 5 and 6 for their D6 damages. Now you can go with lower damage output units to fininsh the LRBT off. On the other hand, if you roll 1 and 2 for the damage, then right, you bring in the cavalry to finish them off any way. Allows you to better capitalize on luck.
The Lokhust just seems kind of bad unless it has some special rules beyond reroll 1s to hit. 70 points for one shot - with a huge chance to do nothing - is generally bad while I think its fair to say an average of 6 S7 AP-1 D1 shots is flat out *awful*.
The Doomstrider as people have said is probably more debatable - but I find the lack of special rules on the datasheet (beyond a 5++) a bit odd. I think losing 8 gauss flayers from the DDA (at BS 3+) is also not without consequence.
bennyboy6189 wrote: Yeah bs4 is what kills it for me and lack of speed compared to a dda. Dda just have too much versatility as they cover anti tank and horde. I also hope we keep the old destroyers not liking the new weapons/price
We can Buff BS now with MWBD but here is a list of Pros
+Invuln save is very useful against the Meta of Plasma and Autocannon weapons
+It's BS does not degrade
+ It does not have blast- Which is a benefit in nearly all cases for a weapon like this
+ 48' range is more than ample with the new tablesize
+ Better base Armor Save
+ it's 50 points cheaper than the DDA
- No QS means it's more vulnerable to dedicated AT weapons
- Starts at BS4
- Does not have the Flayer Arrays
-Suffers more than the DDA when it has to move.
The Unit itself stands up pretty well point per point on anti-tank. Only a few units, like Eradicators, are significantly better.
I really think people are sleeping on this, I could see taking these instead of DDA, or mix and matching them for sure.
Grimgold wrote: It's too bad the rules are cut off for the heavy destroyer might really make a difference in our estimations of it. It probably has living metal, RP, no penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons, and reroll ones to hit.
At 3d3 shots the exterminator ends up with on average being a str 7 twin linked heavy bolter. That should be no less than 20 points (10 per heavy bolter) at the going rate, so we'll call it a 25 point weapon since the strength is higher. That means we are paying 45 points for the heavy destroyer chassis, which puts it into line with the outriders from indomitus who are also t5 and 4 wounds.
So I can see how they arrived at that price, and it's not unreasonable for what you get, however I'm just not sold on it. Barring any specific stratagems, I don't think these guys are as cost effective as other options we have. They feel kind of iffy even with extermination protocols because of the small unit size and the high variability in number of shots and/or damage.
I think they might be 5 to 10 points too high, so enough that you won't see them in hyper competitive armies, but a small enough cost overrun that you don't have to feel dumb running them *cough cough*Obelisk.
Heavy bolters are 15 points on vehicle platforms, which these act more like.
Grimgold wrote: It's too bad the rules are cut off for the heavy destroyer might really make a difference in our estimations of it. It probably has living metal, RP, no penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons, and reroll ones to hit.
At 3d3 shots the exterminator ends up with on average being a str 7 twin linked heavy bolter. That should be no less than 20 points (10 per heavy bolter) at the going rate, so we'll call it a 25 point weapon since the strength is higher. .
For the Doomstalker vs DDA debate. I wonder what the 'mini death rays' on the new Monolith are going to look like.
They're changing up this codex in ways I didn't anticipate.
Which is great, it is looking like you can take an army of single selections and not feel like your playing with 75% garbage.
I like the idea of heaving a DDA, a Doomstalker, a Monolith and a triarch stalker all in the same army rather then spamming DDA's every time. I am ware thats still just as valid and points will vary but it's nice to see a variety of the cool models in an army that actually functions well.
I really like the stats on the Doomstalker, if you want dedicated AT and need the points, its the go to, the DDA is still the better all rounder in my opinion.
I mainly like it because it allows me to put AT in my all Canoptek list beyond the Tomb Sentiel and the Seraptek.
The Lokhust destroyer is nice, the Gauss is certainly enticing, but the Enmitic weapon is, a little disappointing honestly, I wouldve expected S7 AP2 D1 but with Assault 2d6 or 4d3, at least with 4d3 shots not having blast is a boon.
It is what it is, they look good and I'm interested to see the normal Lokhust and Lokhust Lord
Same can be said that you can buff dda to hit on 2s. Also with the new force organisation I'm always Gunna run a battalion with necrons those 3 heavy support choices are to valuable to waste on them. And if I got a spare 130points or so I would rather add a triarch stalker than the doomstalker.
vipoid wrote: It seems weird that people keep praising the Doomstrider for not degenerating, given that it already starts out with a degenerated profile.
It's a construct, they're all BS4 base. Try using daemon engines which are both BS4+ ranged platforms and do degrade as well.
vipoid wrote: It seems weird that people keep praising the Doomstrider for not degenerating, given that it already starts out with a degenerated profile.
People are both acknowledging that it doesn't degrade BS as a benefit, while at the same time acknowledging that starting at BS4 is a negative.
vipoid wrote: It seems weird that people keep praising the Doomstrider for not degenerating, given that it already starts out with a degenerated profile.
Either FW are casting in small bunches or they are shifting like crazy, Tomb Sentinel email came and I went to check and its already back on out of stock.
Dudeface wrote: Initially I was very much "oh OK, that turrets weird in that it can move" I did not notice the 4 bs2 lascannons for 80 pts.
The Lastalon is at least 130 pts. I'm more upset at the autocannon which is just flat out much better than our Enmitic weapon for 10 pts more, which BS2 and a 2+ save.
Dudeface wrote: Initially I was very much "oh OK, that turrets weird in that it can move" I did not notice the 4 bs2 lascannons for 80 pts.
The Lastalon is at least 130 pts. I'm more upset at the autocannon which is just flat out much better than our Enmitic weapon for 10 pts more, which BS2 and a 2+ save.
That's still a dumb unit at that price for either load out.
Does anyone else think the DDA is gong to need changes to stay valid in 9e?
I saw the stats for the lokhust heavy destroyer and it's got a weapon option that is heavy 1, S10, AP4 and doed 3d3 dam.
3d3 damage means an average 6 dam per hit. Yes it has a shorter range but still long enough to cover a lot of the table. The DDA on high power does 1d6, which is 3-4 dam per his on average.
3 minimum, 6 average, max 9 dam per hit vs the DDA with 1 minimum, 3.5 average and 6 maximum per hit pretty much means that people are going to likely be taking a couple of these lokhusts rasthen than a dda.
The DDA has some advantages, like longer ranger, d6 shots rather than 1, more survivable and the gauss flayer array, but still, an average hit from a lokhust will do 6 dam while 2 hits from a DDA will average 7.
If the lokhust is half the cost of a DDAor less the dda will likely disappear from a lot of tables.
If the DDA doesn't get a buff it's going to be replaced by the lokhust. Do you think gw will buff the dda or just decide to make the lokhust totally superior as everyone who is likely to buy a dda already has so gw nerfs is t get people to buy lokhusts?
Matt Swain wrote: Does anyone else think the DDA is gong to need changes to stay valid in 9e?
I saw the stats for the lokhust heavy destroyer and it's got a weapon option that is heavy 1, S10, AP4 and doed 3d3 dam.
3d3 damage means an average 6 dam per hit. Yes it has a shorter range but still long enough to cover a lot of the table. The DDA on high power does 1d6, which is 3-4 dam per his on average.
3 minimum, 6 average, max 9 dam per hit vs the DDA with 1 minimum, 3.5 average and 6 maximum per hit pretty much means that people are going to likely be taking a couple of these lokhusts rasthen than a dda.
The DDA has some advantages, like longer ranger, d6 shots rather than 1, more survivable and the gauss flayer array, but still, an average hit from a lokhust will do 6 dam while 2 hits from a DDA will average 7.
If the lokhust is half the cost of a DDAor less the dda will likely disappear from a lot of tables.
If the DDA doesn't get a buff it's going to be replaced by the lokhust. Do you think gw will buff the dda or just decide to make the lokhust totally superior as everyone who is likely to buy a dda already has so gw nerfs is t get people to buy lokhusts?
Problem is the Lokhust are subject to very high variance with 1 shot on the Destructor. They also are overkill for everything except high value tanks, and 3 Lokhusts cost 30 more pts than a DDA.
If anything I feel like the Doomsday stalker is going to be used a lot, but there is pros and cons with it and the DDA.
Matt Swain wrote: Does anyone else think the DDA is gong to need changes to stay valid in 9e?
I saw the stats for the lokhust heavy destroyer and it's got a weapon option that is heavy 1, S10, AP4 and doed 3d3 dam.
3d3 damage means an average 6 dam per hit. Yes it has a shorter range but still long enough to cover a lot of the table. The DDA on high power does 1d6, which is 3-4 dam per his on average.
3 minimum, 6 average, max 9 dam per hit vs the DDA with 1 minimum, 3.5 average and 6 maximum per hit pretty much means that people are going to likely be taking a couple of these lokhusts rasthen than a dda.
The DDA has some advantages, like longer ranger, d6 shots rather than 1, more survivable and the gauss flayer array, but still, an average hit from a lokhust will do 6 dam while 2 hits from a DDA will average 7.
If the lokhust is half the cost of a DDAor less the dda will likely disappear from a lot of tables.
If the DDA doesn't get a buff it's going to be replaced by the lokhust. Do you think gw will buff the dda or just decide to make the lokhust totally superior as everyone who is likely to buy a dda already has so gw nerfs is t get people to buy lokhusts?
2 locust averages 5.33 vs russ. Dda 5.14, has flayer arrays(very useful) and is tougher.
Dda is also vehicle which is generally good in 9th.
Won't the LHD likely reroll 1s to hit also? Should put 2 LHD at 6.22 vs LRBT on average
Which is already superior at 40 less points, no need to worry about the 3rd, but if you do it really seals it. Yep these things are nasty since they will also get back up and can gain the buffs from crypteks.
It's the same argument as before with normal heavy destoryers only these are more consistant on damage. I don't think they will invalidate the DDA but they are worth while.
I would say the doomstalker is less appealing personally. I'll still buy one as it's decent and looks neat but I honestly think the triarch stalker is way better at the same role and is an elite.
It's a better autocannon than even csm have in that turret..
And csm have literally autocannons as a side buissness are attached to their faction....?!?
Ffs gw.
vipoid wrote: It seems weird that people keep praising the Doomstrider for not degenerating, given that it already starts out with a degenerated profile.
People are both acknowledging that it doesn't degrade BS as a benefit, while at the same time acknowledging that starting at BS4 is a negative.
I dunno, I like it. Part of my problem with this fething game is that everything hits on 2/3s rerolling 1s all the time if set up right. I like the straight forward, "if it hits, it hits" BS4 profile. The guard never complain about it, why should anyone else?
Overread wrote: Is the clear base also 60mm or are GW really messing with us on the whole base issue; which seems odd considering how well they've done in AoS.
Overread wrote: Is the clear base also 60mm or are GW really messing with us on the whole base issue; which seems odd considering how well they've done in AoS.
Who even knows anymore. The Skorpekh Lord and Reanimator are on 65mm bases and that wasn't even a thing outside the sector mechanicus and shattered dominion sets (at least AFAIK).
60mm flying make sense, but at this point its really hard to care about base consistency. Some of the Indomitus models feel like they flipped a coin to choose between base sizes. 28, 32, 40, 65 and 90mm Oval.
And current things in the Necron range should have been bumped at least a size. Particularly wraiths, which really want to tip over on 40mm.
Sasori wrote: The Enmitic weapon looks even worse when compared to the new SM bike and turret...
I just feel that, with same PL as Lokust Heavy Destroyer, it seem that the turret is far better.
Well it's marines. Of course it's better. We are better off comparing our stuff to other non-imperial marines. Npc vs npc is meaningfull comparison. Npc vs master faction just leaves sour taste in mouth
After seeing the Doom Stalker it would seem GW are returning to their old ways. That thing needs to be cheap in order to be any good because BS4 is pants, random shots are pants and it's a weapon called a Doomsday Blaster but doesn't even have the blast rule!
I thought they were talking about just the Transcendent C'tan part of the kit, not the Tesseract Vault.
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