Kharne the Befriender wrote: FALLING DEATH: During deployment, you can place a monolith in the upper atmosphere instead of deploying it on the battlefield.
I love the wording here. Do you need friends in NASA to be able to deep strike Necrons?
At least the upper atmosphere isn't 30.000 kilometres away.
Hmm. I may mathammer Berzerkers vs Death company when I have some time tonight. Two classic dead 'ard HtH units, both 17pts a hit. Yay! It's not like I'm studying for a final exam or anything...
matphat wrote: Woof. I'm really disappointed to see Orks moving so damn slowly this edition. One can only assume that their points go lowered to make up for the additional model losses you'll take slogging across the board? If not, I'm not losing hope yet as I assume we'll get something to equalize that?
I dunno, I prefer Battle Wagons anyway...
You'll also be losing less because you'll get your save more often, are largely immune to morale if you have some horde units to create mob bubbles of 20-30 leadership, and a lot of traditional anti-infantry weapons are now wounding you on 3+ instead of 2+ (S6-7). Oh, and templates for everyone are generally hitting less total models than they potentially could (so feel free to start using movement trays for your foot sloggers).
The mechanical structure of the game did a lot to make low-end saves and T4 worthwhile again. Orks can now use large mobs to buff army morale, and a lot of horde-killing weaponry is less effective against tough hordes than it used to be.
This edition changes a lot, it's hard to contextualize it based on a previous edition's hangups. Besides, with a re-rollable charge distance, Orks may not be as slow as they seem.
Cephalobeard wrote: People with indexes seem to be indicating no chapter tactics are in the books. That's... Worrying.
Did you really think they were going to stay? Legions, marks, chapter tactics, etc. will ALL be gone. Maybe they will give them back to us in later books, but there was no way they were going to do that.
matphat wrote: Woof. I'm really disappointed to see Orks moving so damn slowly this edition. One can only assume that their points go lowered to make up for the additional model losses you'll take slogging across the board? If not, I'm not losing hope yet as I assume we'll get something to equalize that?
I dunno, I prefer Battle Wagons anyway...
It also seems the ork in mega armour will have 7 wounds which seems pretty low as I think standard characters seem to have a bit more than a standard warboss. Why does GW seem to hate orks? Overall they seem to have just being ignored in this update with them going "Do orks need a balance?... Nah! Let's just give them everything the same and tell people it's new! Look guys you get a bubble of invulv saves with your Mek! You never had that before!!!" When the fact is we did and now our Big meks can't move fast enough to make it useful... I thought we could at least get our full 6" or more! Orks are not super heavy lugging space marines! Their basically pure muscle genetically built for war!
nintura wrote: I find it disparaging that again, loyal space marine captains have more wounds than chaos space marine characters....
Time to stop snorting warp dust and hit the gym?
I'm sure when they get around to updating them into newer, more tainted models they'll see a stat jump.
Khàrn has a new model though. Its big. It screams more wounds than a basic marine cap. It seems very stupid he onky has 5 where as most characters have had 6 or more wounds
Fenris-77 wrote: Hmm. I may mathammer Berzerkers vs Death company when I have some time tonight. Two classic dead 'ard HtH units, both 17pts a hit. Yay! It's not like I'm studying for a final exam or anything...
well they have 'black rage' which i dont think we know what that does
matphat wrote: Woof. I'm really disappointed to see Orks moving so damn slowly this edition. One can only assume that their points go lowered to make up for the additional model losses you'll take slogging across the board? If not, I'm not losing hope yet as I assume we'll get something to equalize that?
I dunno, I prefer Battle Wagons anyway...
People assume it's made up with the d6 advance we will do because of waaaghhh!!! However we had that last ed and boy blobs are still to slow. Imho this will be the ork speedfreak edition. Bikes lots of bikes characters on bikes because characters don't have abilities outside of transports.
matphat wrote: Woof. I'm really disappointed to see Orks moving so damn slowly this edition. One can only assume that their points go lowered to make up for the additional model losses you'll take slogging across the board? If not, I'm not losing hope yet as I assume we'll get something to equalize that?
I dunno, I prefer Battle Wagons anyway...
It also seems the ork in mega armour will have 7 wounds which seems pretty low as I think standard characters seem to have a bit more than a standard warboss. Why does GW seem to hate orks? Overall they seem to have just being ignored in this update with them going "Do orks need a balance?... Nah! Let's just give them everything the same and tell people it's new! Look guys you get a bubble of invulv saves with your Mek! You never had that before!!!" When the fact is we did and now our Big meks can't move fast enough to make it useful... I thought we could at least get our full 6" or more! Orks are not super heavy lugging space marines! Their basically pure muscle genetically built for war!
Not too sure about your comment on characters getting more wounds. I just looked at the Abaddon the Despoiler leak and he also has 7 wounds.
matphat wrote: Woof. I'm really disappointed to see Orks moving so damn slowly this edition. One can only assume that their points go lowered to make up for the additional model losses you'll take slogging across the board? If not, I'm not losing hope yet as I assume we'll get something to equalize that?
I dunno, I prefer Battle Wagons anyway...
It's because they can re-roll charge (and maybe Advance?) rolls and, with a Warboss, can Advance and charge (except it now works every turn and you don't need a hyper expensive detachment to do it!) Them moving 1" slower than they used to is to balance out how easy it is to get into combat once they close with an enemy army. Consider also that you no longer take casualties from the front of the unit.
Also, you're forgetting the hyper buffed Mob Rule which now makes Orks invulnerable to Morale in larger unit sizes, and even at 10 or so strong they have better Leadership than before and don't get screwed over by models dying to Pinning/Fear/Morale/etc tests. They also get their 6+ saves against way more weapons than they used to.
Orks are obviously in a way better spot than they used to be.
matphat wrote: Woof. I'm really disappointed to see Orks moving so damn slowly this edition. One can only assume that their points go lowered to make up for the additional model losses you'll take slogging across the board? If not, I'm not losing hope yet as I assume we'll get something to equalize that?
I dunno, I prefer Battle Wagons anyway...
It's because they can re-roll charge (and maybe Advance?) rolls and, with a Warboss, can Advance and charge (except it now works every turn and you don't need a hyper expensive detachment to do it!) Them moving 1" slower than they used to is to balance out how easy it is to get into combat once they close with an enemy army. Consider also that you no longer take casualties from the front of the unit.
Also, you're forgetting the hyper buffed Mob Rule which now makes Orks invulnerable to Morale in larger unit sizes, and even at 10 or so strong they have better Leadership than before and don't get screwed over by models dying to Pinning/Fear/Morale/etc tests. They also get their 6+ saves against way more weapons than they used to.
Orks are obviously in a way better spot than they used to be.
Yeah, it seems I missed some of these more salient features from recent updates.
I'm also getting the feeling that melee Orks are going to see a come back? If so, my 130 Assault on Black Reach slugga choppa boyz are finally going to see some action after 6 years.
Cephalobeard wrote: People with indexes seem to be indicating no chapter tactics are in the books. That's... Worrying.
Pretty sure they said CT are just going to be stratagems. Would expect them in the future codices.
Indeed there's neither chapter tactics nor legion tactics. Nor slaaneshi nor tzeenthchian powers. only generic and nurgle. My guess is that they will release them "soon".
Woof. I'm really disappointed to see Orks moving so damn slowly this edition.
They can move, run, shoot, and charge with a reroll. What else do you want?
Well considering missions are still the same run across the board and grab this objective or kill point and haven't changed this edition like every tournament was already doing. And orks already had move run and charge. I know you played greentide yourself and a giant blob of fearless boys with 5+ fnp, move run charge (w reroll) each turn and mass powerklaws with look out sir was already to slow when we were moving 6in base movement. I doubt lowering our movement to 5in and keeping the same movement buffs made us faster.
So the new orks of hey take 30 footsloggin orks and a painboy and a warboss and have a slower, worse morale and worse fnp save isn't really what I consider a buff.
It also seems the ork in mega armour will have 7 wounds which seems pretty low as I think standard characters seem to have a bit more than a standard warboss. Why does GW seem to hate orks? Overall they seem to have just being ignored in this update with them going "Do orks need a balance?... Nah! Let's just give them everything the same and tell people it's new! Look guys you get a bubble of invulv saves with your Mek! You never had that before!!!" When the fact is we did and now our Big meks can't move fast enough to make it useful... I thought we could at least get our full 6" or more! Orks are not super heavy lugging space marines! Their basically pure muscle genetically built for war!
Wrong. Abaddon the bloomin' Despoiler has 7 Wounds. The Primaris Captain has 6 Wounds. Your Warboss in Mega Armor has as many wounds as the most powerful Chaos Space Marine alive, and more than a shiny new Primaris Captain. Quit your whining.
You are being INCREDIBLY misleading. The invulnerable bubble only worked for MODELS within range before, now it works for UNITS in range meaning you can easily spread it to entire hordes at a time.
Also, you can now run and charge in EVERY turn, and not just one turn (outside of that crappy super detachment with the absurdly high minimum requirements). Losing 1" in exchange for actually getting a 6+ save against the likes of boltguns, being base Strength 4 (or 5 on Nobz), having a WAY better Mob Rule system and hitting on 3+ against all with your basic Boyz is a trade-off I'd take any day.
gungo wrote:
People assume it's made up with the d6 advance we will do because of waaaghhh!!! However we had that last ed and boy blobs are still to slow. Imho this will be the ork speedfreak edition. Bikes lots of bikes characters on bikes because characters don't have abilities outside of transports.
Waaaagh! (Advance/Run and charge) used to be a once-per-game ability, now it can be used every turn from what I can tell. "But you could get to use it every turn in a detachment"; yeah, a detachment with a minimum cost of something like 1000 points that left very little room to customize your build...
Let's not forget that you no longer take casualties from the front and Orks will generally get their armor saves now which is HUGE for horde armies. Once they get there, they hit harder than ever before as they hit anything on a 3+ (usually it was 4+) and are base Strength 4 rather than only on the charge.
Seriously, I get that Ork players have had it rough for a while, but are you that blind that you can't see how good these overall changes are when they slap you in the face like this?
Not sure if this was discussed yet, but can someone help me out here? How on earth are Khorne Berzerkers Power Level 5 compared to Death Company at Power Level 9? Not only that, Berzerkers are 1 point cheaper, have a better statline, and fight twice in assault. Um, what?
It also seems the ork in mega armour will have 7 wounds which seems pretty low as I think standard characters seem to have a bit more than a standard warboss. Why does GW seem to hate orks? Overall they seem to have just being ignored in this update with them going "Do orks need a balance?... Nah! Let's just give them everything the same and tell people it's new! Look guys you get a bubble of invulv saves with your Mek! You never had that before!!!" When the fact is we did and now our Big meks can't move fast enough to make it useful... I thought we could at least get our full 6" or more! Orks are not super heavy lugging space marines! Their basically pure muscle genetically built for war!
Wrong. Abaddon the bloomin' Despoiler has 7 Wounds. The Primaris Captain has 6 Wounds. Your Warboss in Mega Armor has as many wounds as the most powerful Chaos Space Marine alive, and more than a shiny new Primaris Captain. Quit your whining.
You are being INCREDIBLY misleading. The invulnerable bubble only worked for MODELS within range before, now it works for UNITS in range meaning you can easily spread it to entire hordes at a time.
Also, you can now run and charge in EVERY turn, and not just one turn (outside of that crappy super detachment with the absurdly high minimum requirements). Losing 1" in exchange for actually getting a 6+ save against the likes of boltguns, being base Strength 4 (or 5 on Nobz), having a WAY better Mob Rule system and hitting on 3+ against all with your basic Boyz is a trade-off I'd take any day.
gungo wrote:
People assume it's made up with the d6 advance we will do because of waaaghhh!!! However we had that last ed and boy blobs are still to slow. Imho this will be the ork speedfreak edition. Bikes lots of bikes characters on bikes because characters don't have abilities outside of transports.
Waaaagh! (Advance/Run and charge) used to be a once-per-game ability, now it can be used every turn from what I can tell. "But you could get to use it every turn in a detachment"; yeah, a detachment with a minimum cost of something like 1000 points that left very little room to customize your build...
Let's not forget that you no longer take casualties from the front and Orks will generally get their armor saves now which is HUGE for horde armies. Once they get there, they hit harder than ever before as they hit anything on a 3+ (usually it was 4+) and are base Strength 4 rather than only on the charge.
Seriously, I get that Ork players have had it rough for a while, but are you that blind that you can't see how good these overall changes are when they slap you in the face like this?
This is the post I needed to see. Well, this and a few of the others above. Feeling a bit better and about to dust off the boyz, give em a spruce up and prepare for the release.
It also seems the ork in mega armour will have 7 wounds which seems pretty low as I think standard characters seem to have a bit more than a standard warboss. Why does GW seem to hate orks? Overall they seem to have just being ignored in this update with them going "Do orks need a balance?... Nah! Let's just give them everything the same and tell people it's new! Look guys you get a bubble of invulv saves with your Mek! You never had that before!!!" When the fact is we did and now our Big meks can't move fast enough to make it useful... I thought we could at least get our full 6" or more! Orks are not super heavy lugging space marines! Their basically pure muscle genetically built for war!
Wrong. Abaddon the bloomin' Despoiler has 7 Wounds. The Primaris Captain has 6 Wounds. Your Warboss in Mega Armor has as many wounds as the most powerful Chaos Space Marine alive, and more than a shiny new Primaris Captain. Quit your whining.
You are being INCREDIBLY misleading. The invulnerable bubble only worked for MODELS within range before, now it works for UNITS in range meaning you can easily spread it to entire hordes at a time.
Also, you can now run and charge in EVERY turn, and not just one turn (outside of that crappy super detachment with the absurdly high minimum requirements). Losing 1" in exchange for actually getting a 6+ save against the likes of boltguns, being base Strength 4 (or 5 on Nobz), having a WAY better Mob Rule system and hitting on 3+ against all with your basic Boyz is a trade-off I'd take any day.
gungo wrote:
People assume it's made up with the d6 advance we will do because of waaaghhh!!! However we had that last ed and boy blobs are still to slow. Imho this will be the ork speedfreak edition. Bikes lots of bikes characters on bikes because characters don't have abilities outside of transports.
Waaaagh! (Advance/Run and charge) used to be a once-per-game ability, now it can be used every turn from what I can tell. "But you could get to use it every turn in a detachment"; yeah, a detachment with a minimum cost of something like 1000 points that left very little room to customize your build...
Let's not forget that you no longer take casualties from the front and Orks will generally get their armor saves now which is HUGE for horde armies. Once they get there, they hit harder than ever before as they hit anything on a 3+ (usually it was 4+) and are base Strength 4 rather than only on the charge.
Seriously, I get that Ork players have had it rough for a while, but are you that blind that you can't see how good these overall changes are when they slap you in the face like this?
there was several detachments with multiple waaaghs however greentide was the most useful however I played the ghaz council w the horde detachment which also had multiple waaghs regardless the point was in both detachments orks were still to slow to win the objective game. Lowering our movement doesn't help. And this edition still pushes orks into a 30 model horde build and is worse then we were. Im not complaining about offense with orks we are better. We did lose the HoW and fearless but the entire setup of this new edition is the same mechanic as greentide. Horde of boys, painboy, warboss, on foot with move run charge. It was to slow before it's not faster all of a sudden this edition becaUse we got a lower base move. My second gripe is with matched play missions hugely favoring elite mobile armies.... orks are NOT mobile this edition. We are so far outside of a speed freak list one of the slowest non-range armies.
theharrower wrote: Not sure if this was discussed yet, but can someone help me out here? How on earth are Khorne Berzerkers Power Level 5 compared to Death Company at Power Level 9? Not only that, Berzerkers are 1 point cheaper, have a better statline, and fight twice in assault. Um, what?
Death company has better access to sinergies? The only sinergy of Khorne Berzerkers is Kharn... and to benefit from that sinergy they need to be in range of "The Betrayer" rule. You can't compare in a vacumm a unit of one 100% meele army as Khorne to a unit of a meele-specialized variant of a much more flexible faction as are Space Marines Blood Angels.
Plus they have Jumpacks and much more variety in weapons. Power Level takes an average of the upgrades you can take. And Death Company can take much more upgrades+Black Rage.
Fenris-77 wrote: Hmm. I may mathammer Berzerkers vs Death company when I have some time tonight. Two classic dead 'ard HtH units, both 17pts a hit. Yay! It's not like I'm studying for a final exam or anything...
well they have 'black rage' which i dont think we know what that does
Yeah we do! It's +1A on the charge and an additional 6+ save against any wound taken (not just that one round, any time).
Huh. So I started some mathammering. It's kind of wacky, the chainsword and Chainaxe options come out identically at 4.36 W against MEQ targets (not accounting for DttFE). The Axe is a little better against TEQ, It makes me wonder if I didn't carry a zero or something though. (That's for one round of combat from 10 Berzerkers, no other upgrades or whatnot).
Even wackier. The DC, with chainswords on the charge, do the exact same damage to MEQ targets in that one round of combat. So the difference is the Berserkers entire extra round of combat. I guess we know who wins that comparison.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And yeah, the DC have way more buffs they can stack on.
Fenris-77 wrote: Hmm. I may mathammer Berzerkers vs Death company when I have some time tonight. Two classic dead 'ard HtH units, both 17pts a hit. Yay! It's not like I'm studying for a final exam or anything...
well they have 'black rage' which i dont think we know what that does
Black Rage is...OK. gives +1 attack when they charge the preceding assault phase and a 6+ FnP against failed wounds. The match up between Berzerkers and Death Company is really just going to come down to who charges first (swings first) and how your DC are equipped. I mean you can equip them pretty cheap with anything other than a fist for either 4-5 points. With 4-5 power weapons, your probably going to wipe a 10 man squad anyways. Then, If you got a Sang priest nearby you get your +1 str, which is all you need in this new edition. unless you can get to double str over their toughness, your wounding on 3's anyways. Theres lots of buffs our HQs give out from re-rolls to hit, extra attacks, +1 str,
Fenris-77 wrote: Yeah we do! It's +1A on the charge and an additional 6+ save against any wound taken (not just that one round, any time).
Huh. So I started some mathammering. It's kind of wacky, the chainsword and Chainaxe options come out identically at 4.36 W against MEQ targets (not accounting for DttFE). The Axe is a little better against TEQ, It makes me wonder if I didn't carry a zero or something though. (That's for one round of combat from 10 Berzerkers, no other upgrades or whatnot).
Even wackier. The DC, with chainswords on the charge, do the exact same damage to MEQ targets in that one round of combat. So the difference is the Berserkers entire extra round of combat. I guess we know who wins that comparison.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And yeah, the DC have way more buffs they can stack on.
Also bear in mind that the Berzerkers have to activate twice. If they die before the second one, they lose those attacks.
gungo wrote: there was several detachments with multiple waaaghs however greentide was the most useful however I played the ghaz council w the horde detachment which also had multiple waaghs regardless the point was in both detachments orks were still to slow to win the objective game. Lowering our movement doesn't help. And this edition still pushes orks into a 30 model horde build and is worse then we were.
Seriously. That one change makes charging and moving across the board way easier, you can also clump your models up because there's no blast markers in the game anymore either. If anything, it's EASIER to get into combat than before.
You're forgetting something very important. Green Tide was 100 models in a single unit that was reliant on two super important characters to keep it moving. The moment the Warboss got sniped out, the entire unit became susceptible to the previously god awful Mob Rule, and losing the Painboy cut the durability of the unit down considerably.
Now, a 6+ armor save is nowhere near as worthless as it used to be, Kustom Force Fields extend to entire units and not just models, the 6+ from a Painboy works all the time and can't be denied, Mob Rule doesn't screw over big units like it used to, etc. Instead of one 100 model unit that could be focused down and had to deal with the old "take casualties from the front" rules, you can instead spread out your models between separate units meaning your opponent can't simply overkill the one unit anymore. If you consider that your units will take casualties, losing out on 1" of Movement is actually fully made up for by not losing casualties from the front.
Struggling to capture objectives with a full foot-slogging army...wow, what a surprise that is. It's almost like you're supposed to take a combined arms force with both slow hard-hitters and fast objective takers? Hordes fill the former role, Trukk Boyz fill the latter role. Horde Boyz don't worry about Morale and have amazing damage but cross the board slower than Trukk Boyz who have a Trukk to help deny Overwatch. However, a Trukk is now worth something like 12-15 Boyz once you account for its weapons (but not other upgrades) as opposed to just 6.
You lost out on a specific formation which was unwieldy as hell and leaned on two gimmick characters. Now, your hordes are far more self-sufficient with the new Mob Rule and still get mega benefits from nearby characters that buff units in a radius rather than just the one they are attached to.
They are better off than they were. Full stop.
Also, fun fact....Shoota Boyz can run and shoot their Shootas at 6s to-hit and still charge...fancy that. And Slugga Boyz can shoot their Sluggas in combat, essentially giving them a permanent 4th attack that they would lose out on in the previous rules after the turn they charged.
theharrower wrote: Not sure if this was discussed yet, but can someone help me out here? How on earth are Khorne Berzerkers Power Level 5 compared to Death Company at Power Level 9? Not only that, Berzerkers are 1 point cheaper, have a better statline, and fight twice in assault. Um, what?
Death company has better access to sinergies? The only sinergy of Khorne Berzerkers is Kharn... and to benefit from that sinergy they need to be in range of "The Betrayer" rule. You can't compare in a vacumm a unit of one 100% meele army as Khorne to a unit of a meele-specialized variant of a much more flexible faction as are Space Marines Blood Angels.
Plus they have Jumpacks and much more variety in weapons. Power Level takes an average of the upgrades you can take. And Death Company can take much more upgrades+Black Rage.
I get Death Company have more synergy with other units, but its crazy to point them based on what else can possibly be in the army or what equipment they may have. That doesn't make sense at all. Unit vs. unit, Death Company lose every time. Unless you consider synergy with other stuff which is daft if you ask me. And yeah, I get I'm being kneejerky here and considering this in a vacuum, but it just doesn't make sense.
skoffs wrote: Wtf?!
By the looks of that pic, the Monolith appears to be almost 400 points.
Surely I'm misreading that very blurry text (after all, it also looks as if Immortals are... 8 points? That can't be right)
Immortals are 8 points base with mandatory 9 point guns (both options) so 17 points per model.
Monolith is Pricier because nearly everything but unupgraded infantry costs 1.5-2 times what it did in 7th. 3500 points is the new 2000 points.
Well, while I enjoy this delicious sautéd crow, I'll just say that I rather hope it means 1500 will be the new 2000. I wish people would embrace playing smaller games with more varied lists, rather than the state we're in at the moment where a points value that doesn't let you deploy your entire collection of models at once is somehow an inferior experience. Particularly now we have detachments that essentially let you build any army you want - a short series of linked games where your Scouts & Assault Marines perform a raid, leading to an armoured spearhead, leading to a desperate holding action with line infantry sounds like much more fun to me than "welcome to planet Bowlingballicus IV, lets fill 2/3 of the table with models and roll dice for three hours until boredom o'er takes us".
Honestly despite misgivings and quibbles about individual elements, the broad thrust of 8th sounds better and better the more we hear. I'd been considering going back to playing 3rd Edition, but 8th seems like it will be a better 3rd than 3rd was
Unforgiven: units with these keywords auto pass morale tests and reroll to hit against fallen
Jink: 5++ save
Azrael: CM stats, grants +1 Command Point to the army if he is the warlord. TheLion Helm gives 4++ to all DA units 6" to him. Sword of Secrets +2S AP-3 D d3
Belial and Sammael make reroll .1s to hit to all DA units 6" from them and(Belial) all to hit for DW or (sammael) RW DW has Ancient, Apothecary, Champion as characters
So daemon princes have ten wounds so they're targettable... were I a chaos player I'd be a tad annoyed by that...
But how the hell the vanilla marine units have not been leaked, or have I missed something? (I saw the points and weapons.) Being most played army I'd imagine a lot of people would be interested in seeing them.
theharrower wrote: Not sure if this was discussed yet, but can someone help me out here? How on earth are Khorne Berzerkers Power Level 5 compared to Death Company at Power Level 9? Not only that, Berzerkers are 1 point cheaper, have a better statline, and fight twice in assault. Um, what? ]
Death company has better access to sinergies? The only sinergy of Khorne Berzerkers is Kharn... and to benefit from that sinergy they need to be in range of "The Betrayer" rule. You can't compare in a vacumm a unit of one 100% meele army as Khorne to a unit of a meele-specialized variant of a much more flexible faction as are Space Marines Blood Angels.
Plus they have Jumpacks and much more variety in weapons. Power Level takes an average of the upgrades you can take. And Death Company can take much more upgrades+Black Rage.
I get Death Company have more synergy with other units, but its crazy to point them based on what else can possibly be in the army or what equipment they may have. That doesn't make sense at all. Unit vs. unit, Death Company lose every time. Unless you consider synergy with other stuff which is daft if you ask me. And yeah, I get I'm being kneejerky here and considering this in a vacuum, but it just doesn't make sense.
That's really pretty obvious. Every model in the death company can have a power fist and plasma pistol.
greggles wrote: And don't forget, all the ork weapons are assault weapons (for infantry). So they can advance and shoot at a -1. 6's mean nothing to orks
So there you have a horde, running, shooting the entire way, screaming bloody murder as they hit the fleshy meat bags.
And remember, we get to go first!!!!! (outside of some abilities of enemy units and strategems)
Let's go over this orks are 5+ to shoot, 6+ if advancing with str 4 shootas that wound most infantry on 4+ with 18in range for a shoots boy which I have no idea why you would take because it means you lose your choppa +1 atk and your pistol which allows you to shoot in combat. Your pistol is 12 In range. Which means your not firing it outside of combat often.
Again it's not as if you get to move on failed charges the only saving grace is removal of bodies from rear of horde but we are still slower base movement. We were to slow last edition w the same exact buffs. I don't see us playing the objective game faster all of a sudden.
Tyran wrote: DC has much better weapons. Plasma pistols, Inferno pistols, power weapons, power fists, thunder hammer, etc.
Exactly. Power level assumes maximum upgrades. All thunder hammers is way more expensive than 2 plasma pistols and chainaxes.
Alright so Power Rating DC being higher makes total sense. Point for point, I don't get how Berzerkers can be cheaper with a better statline and the ability to attack twice in melee.
theharrower wrote: Not sure if this was discussed yet, but can someone help me out here? How on earth are Khorne Berzerkers Power Level 5 compared to Death Company at Power Level 9? Not only that, Berzerkers are 1 point cheaper, have a better statline, and fight twice in assault. Um, what?
Death company has better access to sinergies? The only sinergy of Khorne Berzerkers is Kharn... and to benefit from that sinergy they need to be in range of "The Betrayer" rule. You can't compare in a vacumm a unit of one 100% meele army as Khorne to a unit of a meele-specialized variant of a much more flexible faction as are Space Marines Blood Angels.
Plus they have Jumpacks and much more variety in weapons. Power Level takes an average of the upgrades you can take. And Death Company can take much more upgrades+Black Rage.
I get Death Company have more synergy with other units, but its crazy to point them based on what else can possibly be in the army or what equipment they may have. That doesn't make sense at all. Unit vs. unit, Death Company lose every time. Unless you consider synergy with other stuff which is daft if you ask me. And yeah, I get I'm being kneejerky here and considering this in a vacuum, but it just doesn't make sense.
Quick comparison get a maxed out unit of each and compare how each one may perform in a single round, Dc with Power Mauls and plasmas are just more flexible in almost any way (shooting, extra shoot in melee same dmg as best melee version of khornates in a single round) while still can fall back or deploy due their jet packs. Also if you want to go full dmg in melee like Khornates just go for Thunder Hammers and enjoy the carnage.
Khornates only exceed in taking down a single unit in melee while Dc can do similarly while still taking advantage of extra equip and abilities.
Crimson wrote: So daemon princes have ten wounds so they're targettable... were I a chaos player I'd be a tad annoyed by that...
But how the hell the vanilla marine units have not been leaked, or have I missed something? (I saw the points and weapons.) Being most played army I'd imagine a lot of people would be interested in seeing them.
I thought the rule was 10 or less Wounds = not targetable?
theharrower wrote: Not sure if this was discussed yet, but can someone help me out here? How on earth are Khorne Berzerkers Power Level 5 compared to Death Company at Power Level 9? Not only that, Berzerkers are 1 point cheaper, have a better statline, and fight twice in assault. Um, what?
Death Company have more options.
Each and every one can be kitted out with prime wargear. The PL system takes in to account. It assumes you'll be somewhere between BP+CS and all of them having inferno pistols and thunder hammers. This is why PL isn't great if you want objective balance. Because a squad can have massive variance.
Meanwhile the difference between a basic 'zerker squad and a kitted out on comes down to what the champ is running and whether you sprung for two plasma pistols (because the chainsword/chainaxe choice isn't a cut and dry one).
Basically, the Death Company get a higher PL because they can take a much larger variety of wargear and also much more powerful wargear.
As for the point total? DC are getting an extra attack and the ability to mitigate damage even more. Zerks are just pure offense and will die as easily as a basic marine. In general, I think that second attack activation is probably easier to mitigate then some might think. Proper deployment and spacing means it may end up being a waste more than the additional attack and FNP save are for the DC. Not saying it's bad, but don't overestimate getting a second attack activation. If you kill something on the charge and there is nothing nearby to follow up on, then it goes to waste. But DC will always find a use for being tougher.
There are many factors at work here. But yeah, if you're taking naked DC in a PL game, you are overpaying by quite a bit. So make sure to kit 'em out to the nines when you run them and that PL9 will make more sense.
8 attack khornate DPs are going to be naaasty (4 base, 2 sets of claws for +3 attacks, +1 for not using magic)
Warp Bolter's an interesting choice, it's not going to ruin anyone's day but it gives DPssomething ranged to do beyond psychic powers
Prince of Chaos is nice, and works with any Daemon units of the same god - which applies to daemon engines, Obliterators, presumably possessed and maybe Warp Talons if we're lucky
It's also not limited to melee attacks. I don't expect backfield DPs will be a thing, but the option is there
Perplexing how he doesn't have the Heretic Astartes keyword, but the Tzaangors do??
Daemonic Ritual is a nice mechanic, and it means that Power Ratings aren't entirely discarded for matched play. Seems it's impossible to fail to summon Heralds, but I wouldnt go attempting to summon a Daemon Prince
Crimson wrote: So daemon princes have ten wounds so they're targettable... were I a chaos player I'd be a tad annoyed by that...
But how the hell the vanilla marine units have not been leaked, or have I missed something? (I saw the points and weapons.) Being most played army I'd imagine a lot of people would be interested in seeing them.
I thought the rule was 10 or less Wounds = not targetable?
I get Death Company have more synergy with other units, but its crazy to point them based on what else can possibly be in the army or what equipment they may have. That doesn't make sense at all. Unit vs. unit, Death Company lose every time. Unless you consider synergy with other stuff which is daft if you ask me. And yeah, I get I'm being kneejerky here and considering this in a vacuum, but it just doesn't make sense.
All depends on who strikes first. A squad of DC with some power weapons will all but wipe out a similar sized squad of berzerkers. they can only upgrade to chainaxes, DC can all take power weapons of any type, plus any pistols they want to as well. if you add in Kharn thats a bit tougher, but then add in one of the BA characters and your back to even again. Its actually a really close matchup, and DC have access to JPs as well which is far superior to having to run around in rhinos.
Have we seen the definition of the Deamonic keyword? I assume it gives 5++, but does it also allow for Deepstriking? Cause if we're forced to rely on either walking on or summoning, which requires giving up the movement phase for a character and hoping to roll above a certain Power Level while not dying to mortal wounds... then that's going to be balls. :(
Tyran wrote: DC has much better weapons. Plasma pistols, Inferno pistols, power weapons, power fists, thunder hammer, etc.
Exactly. Power level assumes maximum upgrades. All thunder hammers is way more expensive than 2 plasma pistols and chainaxes.
Alright so Power Rating DC being higher makes total sense. Point for point, I don't get how Berzerkers can be cheaper with a better statline and the ability to attack twice in melee.
I have the feeling DC is paying premium for the ATSKNF and Black Rage, which give it some extra durability, plus the extra attack is always nice and it scales quite good power weapons.
theharrower wrote: Not sure if this was discussed yet, but can someone help me out here? How on earth are Khorne Berzerkers Power Level 5 compared to Death Company at Power Level 9? Not only that, Berzerkers are 1 point cheaper, have a better statline, and fight twice in assault. Um, what?
Death company has better access to sinergies? The only sinergy of Khorne Berzerkers is Kharn... and to benefit from that sinergy they need to be in range of "The Betrayer" rule. You can't compare in a vacumm a unit of one 100% meele army as Khorne to a unit of a meele-specialized variant of a much more flexible faction as are Space Marines Blood Angels.
Plus they have Jumpacks and much more variety in weapons. Power Level takes an average of the upgrades you can take. And Death Company can take much more upgrades+Black Rage.
I get Death Company have more synergy with other units, but its crazy to point them based on what else can possibly be in the army or what equipment they may have. That doesn't make sense at all. Unit vs. unit, Death Company lose every time. Unless you consider synergy with other stuff which is daft if you ask me. And yeah, I get I'm being kneejerky here and considering this in a vacuum, but it just doesn't make sense.
What? You NEED to consider sinergies when you point out a miniature, or you end with ultra broken combos!
And as other have noted, Khorne Berzerkers attack twice, but they need to survive. They have much less variety in options, less sinergies, they have not the FnP of black rage, etc, etc...
theharrower wrote: I get Death Company have more synergy with other units, but its crazy to point them based on what else can possibly be in the army or what equipment they may have. That doesn't make sense at all. Unit vs. unit, Death Company lose every time. Unless you consider synergy with other stuff which is daft if you ask me. And yeah, I get I'm being kneejerky here and considering this in a vacuum, but it just doesn't make sense.
First off power levels and points are not the same thing. When your using power levels all the unit upgrades are essentially free. Given that the DC have access to way more options than the Zerkers it makes perfect sense.
Secondly units have never been costed in a vacuum. The synergy's and other options within a faction that can affect a unit have always played a part in there points cost.
So, help me out here people, none of these Tzeentch things list EPHERMAL FORM on their sheet, despite the Chaos article telling us Tzeentch units got this. Do we just add that on our own, or..?
Daemonic Ritual is a nice mechanic, and it means that Power Ratings aren't entirely discarded for matched play. Seems it's impossible to fail to summon Heralds, but I wouldnt go attempting to summon a Daemon Prince
3 ones on your summoning roll means not only do you not get your Herald, but you also take D3 mortal wounds (and gave up your movement phase).
Crimson wrote: So daemon princes have ten wounds so they're targettable... were I a chaos player I'd be a tad annoyed by that...
But how the hell the vanilla marine units have not been leaked, or have I missed something? (I saw the points and weapons.) Being most played army I'd imagine a lot of people would be interested in seeing them.
I thought the rule was 10 or less Wounds = not targetable?
Crimson wrote: So daemon princes have ten wounds so they're targettable... were I a chaos player I'd be a tad annoyed by that...
But how the hell the vanilla marine units have not been leaked, or have I missed something? (I saw the points and weapons.) Being most played army I'd imagine a lot of people would be interested in seeing them.
I thought the rule was 10 or less Wounds = not targetable?
theharrower wrote: Not sure if this was discussed yet, but can someone help me out here? How on earth are Khorne Berzerkers Power Level 5 compared to Death Company at Power Level 9? Not only that, Berzerkers are 1 point cheaper, have a better statline, and fight twice in assault. Um, what?
Death company has better access to sinergies? The only sinergy of Khorne Berzerkers is Kharn... and to benefit from that sinergy they need to be in range of "The Betrayer" rule. You can't compare in a vacumm a unit of one 100% meele army as Khorne to a unit of a meele-specialized variant of a much more flexible faction as are Space Marines Blood Angels.
Plus they have Jumpacks and much more variety in weapons. Power Level takes an average of the upgrades you can take. And Death Company can take much more upgrades+Black Rage.
I get Death Company have more synergy with other units, but its crazy to point them based on what else can possibly be in the army or what equipment they may have. That doesn't make sense at all. Unit vs. unit, Death Company lose every time. Unless you consider synergy with other stuff which is daft if you ask me. And yeah, I get I'm being kneejerky here and considering this in a vacuum, but it just doesn't make sense.
Quick comparison get a maxed out unit of each and compare how each one may perform in a single round, Dc with Power Mauls and plasmas are just more flexible in almost any way (shooting, extra shoot in melee same dmg as best melee version of khornates in a single round) while still can fall back or deploy due their jet packs. Also if you want to go full dmg in melee like Khornates just go for Thunder Hammers and enjoy the carnage.
Khornates only exceed in taking down a single unit in melee while Dc can do similarly while still taking advantage of extra equip and abilities.
Fair enough. Not like DC in a Pod or Raven with Lemartes aren't going to mess stuff up. Thx all.
I'm a little depressed that Magnus can now suffer from Perils. Hopefully these are stop-gap rules, and the actual codex will flesh out the models quite a bit more.
Daemonic Ritual is a nice mechanic, and it means that Power Ratings aren't entirely discarded for matched play. Seems it's impossible to fail to summon Heralds, but I wouldnt go attempting to summon a Daemon Prince
3 ones on your summoning roll means not only do you not get your Herald, but you also take D3 mortal wounds (and gave up your movement phase).
I don't see anything saying a triple is an auto-fail. 3 1s is sufficient to summon a herald, it's just a really painful success
Brian888 wrote: I'm a little depressed that Magnus can now suffer from Perils. Hopefully these are stop-gap rules, and the actual codex will flesh out the models quite a bit more.
Considering, with the rule of one, if you have an army with Magnus and Arhiman you will only be able to cast EACH of the THREE spells you know, total, once... It seems not the best, right now.
Brian888 wrote: I'm a little depressed that Magnus can now suffer from Perils. Hopefully these are stop-gap rules, and the actual codex will flesh out the models quite a bit more.
Considering, with the rule of one, if you have an army with Magnus and Arhiman you will only be able to cast EACH of the THREE spells you know, total, once... It seems not the best, right now.
Assuming that the Rule of One ports over to 40K, of course. But yeah, the Sons are in serious need of many, many more psychic powers to choose from, as well as systemic boosts to their casting rolls.
Tyran wrote: DC has much better weapons. Plasma pistols, Inferno pistols, power weapons, power fists, thunder hammer, etc.
Exactly. Power level assumes maximum upgrades. All thunder hammers is way more expensive than 2 plasma pistols and chainaxes.
That is the difference for levels, yeah.
For matched play the difference isn't quite that bleak, equipment wise. The Berserkers still get access to a pair of plasma pistols and they have a champ who has access to wargear. Up to a certain point they're on par. The DC can load out past that for sure, but I don't see it happening much - it's just to damn expensive. I'll DC an edge there, for sure, but it's not a massive chasm IMO.
Brian888 wrote: I'm a little depressed that Magnus can now suffer from Perils. Hopefully these are stop-gap rules, and the actual codex will flesh out the models quite a bit more.
Considering, with the rule of one, if you have an army with Magnus and Arhiman you will only be able to cast EACH of the THREE spells you know, total, once... It seems not the best, right now.
Assuming that the Rule of One ports over to 40K, of course. But yeah, the Sons are in serious need of many, many more psychic powers to choose from.
It was around in a screenshot that yes you can only cast each power once. Though I think it's successful casts so you can fail then try again.
Brian888 wrote: I'm a little depressed that Magnus can now suffer from Perils. Hopefully these are stop-gap rules, and the actual codex will flesh out the models quite a bit more.
Considering, with the rule of one, if you have an army with Magnus and Arhiman you will only be able to cast EACH of the THREE spells you know, total, once... It seems not the best, right now.
Assuming that the Rule of One ports over to 40K, of course. But yeah, the Sons are in serious need of many, many more psychic powers to choose from, as well as systemic boosts to their casting rolls.
Daemonic Ritual is a nice mechanic, and it means that Power Ratings aren't entirely discarded for matched play. Seems it's impossible to fail to summon Heralds, but I wouldnt go attempting to summon a Daemon Prince
3 ones on your summoning roll means not only do you not get your Herald, but you also take D3 mortal wounds (and gave up your movement phase).
I don't see anything saying a triple is an auto-fail. 3 1s is sufficient to summon a herald, it's just a really painful success
Ah, I was looking at Herald of Tzeentch which is 4 power. I see now that Slaanesh is 3.
Brian888 wrote: I'm a little depressed that Magnus can now suffer from Perils. Hopefully these are stop-gap rules, and the actual codex will flesh out the models quite a bit more.
Considering, with the rule of one, if you have an army with Magnus and Arhiman you will only be able to cast EACH of the THREE spells you know, total, once... It seems not the best, right now.
Assuming that the Rule of One ports over to 40K, of course. But yeah, the Sons are in serious need of many, many more psychic powers to choose from.
It was around in a screenshot that yes you can only cast each power once. Though I think it's successful casts so you can fail then try again.
Brian888 wrote: I'm a little depressed that Magnus can now suffer from Perils. Hopefully these are stop-gap rules, and the actual codex will flesh out the models quite a bit more.
Considering, with the rule of one, if you have an army with Magnus and Arhiman you will only be able to cast EACH of the THREE spells you know, total, once... It seems not the best, right now.
Assuming that the Rule of One ports over to 40K, of course. But yeah, the Sons are in serious need of many, many more psychic powers to choose from.
It was around in a screenshot that yes you can only cast each power once. Though I think it's successful casts so you can fail then try again.
Custodian Guard PL 14
Custodian Guard M 6 WS 2+ BS 3+ S 5 T 5 W 3 A 3 LD 8 SV 2+
Shield Captain M 6 WS 2+ BS 2+ S 5 T 5 W 3 A 4 LD 9 SV 2+
1 Custodian Shield captain and 4 custodians, up to 5 additional custodians
Guardian Spear:
Shooting: 24" rapidfire 1 s4 ap -1 dmg 2
melee s +1 ap -3 dmg d3
guardian blade:
ranged: 12" pistol2 s 4 ap 0 dmg 1
melee: S user ap 3 dmg d3 a model with powerknife and guardian blade gains a additional attack
powerknife:
melee s user ap -2 dmg 1
each model may replace guardian spears for a guardian blade
one may take a vexillium (only one per detatchment)
each custodian that does not has a guardian spear may take a stormshield
5+ invul for all
stormshield 3+ invul
vexillium friendly imperium units within 6" may reroll failed ld tests each model in the vexilliums unit gains +1 attack.
faction: imperium, adeptus custodes
keywords: infantry, custodian guard
Venerable Contemptor Dreadnought Pl 8:
M * WS * BS * S 7 T 7 W 10 A 4 LD 8 SV 3+
wounds :
6-10+ = M 9 WS 2+ BS 2+
3-5 = M 6 WS 3+ BS 3+
1-2 = M 6 WS 4+ BS 4+
kheres pattern assaultcannon :
24" heavy 6 S 7 AP -1 dmg 1
TL boltgun:
24" rapidfire 2 s 4 ap 0 dmg 1
multimelta:
24" heavy 1 s 8 ap -4 dmgd6 if the target is within halve range roll 2d6 for dmg, take the highest result (wont explain it in upcoming posts any more)
dreadnought close combat weapon:
melee s x2 ap -3 dmg 3
has a 5+ invul
venerable: for each dmg suffered roll a d6. on a 6 he wont suffer a wound
explosion: if reduced to 0 W roll a d6 on a 6 every unit within 6" suffers d3 mortal wounds
icons:
khorne: reroll charge range
tzeentch: for each icon roll a d6 on a 6 a enemy unit within 12" suffers a mortal wound
slaanesh: death to the false emperor works on 5+ instead of 6+
nurgle: enemy units within 3" have -1 ld undivided: +1ld for the unit
boys: troops, Pl 5
M 5 WS 3+ BS 5+ S 4 T 4 W 1 A 2 LD 6 SV 6+
nob has +1 w, attacks and ld
choppa: melee s user ap 0 dmg 1, may do a additional attack with the choppa in CC stikkbomb: 6" greande d6 s 3 ap 0 dmg 1
pistol: 12" pistol 1 s 4 ap 0 dmg 1
gun: 18" assault 2 s 4 ap 0 dmg 1
nob may take choppy weapons or from the dakka list (sorry hard for me to translate this to english )
for each 10 boys one may take a heavy weapon
boy 6 pts
pistol 0 pts
gun 0 pts
choppa 0 pts
here we go: reroll charges
green mob: you may take the amount of models in the unit for the LD value (so 30 boys = ld 30) also you may use any ld of allied ork units within 6" (this counts for all ork units btw)
if the unit is 20 or more boys, each model in the unit adds +1 attack
Lots of demons but no Nurgle.. At least we have points costs.
i did see that Belekor is only 8W which means he will be a good choice to hide behind other troops.
icons:
khorne: reroll charge range
tzeentch: for each icon roll a d6 on a 6 a enemy unit within 12" suffers a mortal wound
slaanesh: death to the false emperor works on 5+ instead of 6+
nurgle: enemy units within 3" have -1 ld undivided: +1ld for the unit
Blarg. Noise marines trade in their surviveability boost (FNP) for an extra 1/6 chance of a melee attack? Poor trade. :(
Contemptor dreads with 2 assault cannons are almost as cheap as an Annihilation barge and considerably better. Every time I try to get over how bad the Necron vehicles look, it's like salt is ground into the wound.
Boyz look legitimately scary. A full blob of 30 with choppas will get attack 120 times in combat - 2 base, +1 for green tide, +1 for choppa. Kinda ridiculous.
My bad on the 10 Wound thing, I couldn't remember it exactly. I guess that's why Guilliman has 9 Wounds.
Lol in my Ork comments I wasn't even accounting for units of 20 or more getting +1 Attack Yeah they are way better than before, dunno how anyone could possibly deny that. And I wasn't even mentioning THEY STRIKE FIRST ON THE CHARGE FOR THE FIST TIME IN FOREVER!
Tzaangors seem pretty darned good for 7 points per model (none of their weapons cost points). 2 Attacks each thanks to their melee weapons giving +1 Attack, can trade -1 AP in combat for a Bolt Pistol, 6" Movement, add 1 to Advance and Charge rolls for free (Instrument costs 0 points), Toughness 4, 5++ invulnerable save, Strength 4 with re-rolls to-hit against characters....that's a lot of rules for 7 point models. Their big weakness is Leadership, obviously.
Brian888 wrote: I'm a little depressed that Magnus can now suffer from Perils. Hopefully these are stop-gap rules, and the actual codex will flesh out the models quite a bit more.
Considering, with the rule of one, if you have an army with Magnus and Arhiman you will only be able to cast EACH of the THREE spells you know, total, once... It seems not the best, right now.
Assuming that the Rule of One ports over to 40K, of course. But yeah, the Sons are in serious need of many, many more psychic powers to choose from, as well as systemic boosts to their casting rolls.
Aren't all these leaks from the Index books... so what we see if what we get? And what we get is a shelved Thousand Sons army yet again?
theharrower wrote: Not sure if this was discussed yet, but can someone help me out here? How on earth are Khorne Berzerkers Power Level 5 compared to Death Company at Power Level 9? Not only that, Berzerkers are 1 point cheaper, have a better statline, and fight twice in assault. Um, what?
Death company has better access to sinergies? The only sinergy of Khorne Berzerkers is Kharn... and to benefit from that sinergy they need to be in range of "The Betrayer" rule. You can't compare in a vacumm a unit of one 100% meele army as Khorne to a unit of a meele-specialized variant of a much more flexible faction as are Space Marines Blood Angels.
Plus they have Jumpacks and much more variety in weapons. Power Level takes an average of the upgrades you can take. And Death Company can take much more upgrades+Black Rage.
I get Death Company have more synergy with other units, but its crazy to point them based on what else can possibly be in the army or what equipment they may have. That doesn't make sense at all. Unit vs. unit, Death Company lose every time. Unless you consider synergy with other stuff which is daft if you ask me. And yeah, I get I'm being kneejerky here and considering this in a vacuum, but it just doesn't make sense.
What? You NEED to consider sinergies when you point out a miniature, or you end with ultra broken combos!
And as other have noted, Khorne Berzerkers attack twice, but they need to survive. They have much less variety in options, less sinergies, they have not the FnP of black rage, etc, etc...
I keep looking at Power Rating as some sort of generic indicator of how powerful a baseline unit is similar to Challenge Rating in D&D. Totally not what it is at all. Of course you need to consider synergy and all that when pointing units. I'm just being dumb. The only real way to figure out how all this works is to play more games. I'll get there. Thanks all!
Something I noticed about Magnus/Ahriman/Exalteds is that they can only take powers from the Hereticus discipline, however we know there is a Chaos Marine Tzeentch discipline in the book.
Best guess? Chaos psykers all have access to Hereticus, but if your entire army has a matching keyword - i.e. Tzeentch - then your psykers also get to pick powers from that gods' discipline. That or the god-specific discipline specify that Chaos psykers also get them if they have a matching keyword.
Man, I am stoked to see these Tyranid leaks.
Glad to see spike rifle and strangeweb are still, and am interested to see if they're actually worth using this time around with being able to split fire.
I noticed the Deathspitter with slimer maggots is something new. Finally a deathspitter version of the Brainleech worms?
Also the Biostatic rattle..looking forward to seeing some profiles for these!
Boyz look legitimately scary. A full blob of 30 with choppas will get attack 120 times in combat - 2 base, +1 for green tide, +1 for choppa. Kinda ridiculous.
121 because of an extra attack from the boss nob! ;-)
I'm pretty excited to see Nids again. Like, real nid armies, not just bio-drop pods+flyrants. I think the last time I saw someone seriously attempt a nid army with hormagaunts in was in 4th edition about a decade ago.
Eyjio wrote: Boyz look legitimately scary. A full blob of 30 with choppas will get attack 120 times in combat - 2 base, +1 for green tide, +1 for choppa. Kinda ridiculous.
And they strike first on the charge (which they pretty much never used to do), are permanently Strength 4 instead of just on the charge, can wound anything on the game on a 6+, wound T6-T7 on 5s instead of 6s like before, don't lose Attacks until they drop below 20 models, have the highest Leadership in the game in big numbers....but yet some other people are still convinced they suck
Brian888 wrote: I'm a little depressed that Magnus can now suffer from Perils. Hopefully these are stop-gap rules, and the actual codex will flesh out the models quite a bit more.
Considering, with the rule of one, if you have an army with Magnus and Arhiman you will only be able to cast EACH of the THREE spells you know, total, once... It seems not the best, right now.
Assuming that the Rule of One ports over to 40K, of course. But yeah, the Sons are in serious need of many, many more psychic powers to choose from, as well as systemic boosts to their casting rolls.
Aren't all these leaks from the Index books... so what we see if what we get? And what we get is a shelved Thousand Sons army yet again?
I've been assuming that the Index books will be supplemented down the line with actual army-specific codexes. I (desperately) hope that's the case, at any rate.
Ok tank hammers are badarse and make tankbustas a great suicide unit. As are bomb squigs
No to wound roll or save just straight up d3 mortal wounds is death.
Cephalobeard wrote: For things like Magnus, where he can cast multiple times, could we in theory cast smite 3x a turn with him?
As I mentioned in an earlier post, I'm convinced that the actual god-specific disciplines will say "Psykers in your army with the right keyword can also take these powers in addition/instead of any powers they could normally take" as it seems a bit strange that all of Magnus/Ahriman/Exalted Sorcerers can't take Tzeentch powers. Let's not forget Aspiring Sorcers from Rubric Marine units only get Smite, which would mean in a Thousand Sons army only Scarab Occult Sorcerers and regular Sorcerers would get Tzeentch powers...which I find very hard to believe.
In those Daemon pics the tail end of the Masque is shown and she's looking pretty nice.
Locus of Beguilement: Opponent must subtract 1 from any hit rolls that target a Daemonette unit within 6" in the Fight phase.
Eternal Dance: At the beginning of each Fight phase, choose an enemy unit within 1" of this model. For the rest of the phase, add 1 to any hit rolls that target the chosen unit.
And it's a Character, so now it gets to benefit from the targeting rules.
Man, if the points for Tankbustas are good, they're going to remain a premier anti-tank unit. 5+ to-hit in range doesn't matter when the dudes that do hit do 3 Damage each...and up close? There's nothing stopping you blowing up non-vehicle units with those TankHammers
Swara wrote: i did see that Belekor is only 8W which means he will be a good choice to hide behind other troops.
Unless Monster overrides.
Except in the core rules there is no mention of such a thing.
\
... There's all kinds of things that aren't in the core rules. Like the -1 to hit when shooting at models with Fly, etc.
Which is not a core rule. It's a bespoke rule. If a flier incurs a -1 to hit from ground shooters it says on the datasheet. I don't think the C'tan have a bespoke rule saying they are an exception to the character rules.
Eyjio wrote: Boyz look legitimately scary. A full blob of 30 with choppas will get attack 120 times in combat - 2 base, +1 for green tide, +1 for choppa. Kinda ridiculous.
And they strike first on the charge (which they pretty much never used to do), are permanently Strength 4 instead of just on the charge, can wound anything on the game on a 6+, wound T6-T7 on 5s instead of 6s like before, don't lose Attacks until they drop below 20 models, have the highest Leadership in the game in big numbers....but yet some other people are still convinced they suck
Or maybe people realize you are not going to prevent 10+ boys from dying in a 30 boy squad in the average of 3 turns it takes them to get into reliable charge range because they move dirt freakin slow.
Loving the addition of the "Pair of Rokkit Pistols" since about a year ago I modeled a couple of scratch built Tank Busters with that exact thing for fun.
Or maybe people realize you are not going to prevent 10+ boys from dying in a 30 boy squad in the average of 3 turns it takes them to get into reliable charge range because they move dirt freakin slow.
Which is why you have multiple units and other things in your army to draw firepower...you know, like a normal assault army that tries to constrict opponents through threat overload?
Besides, that's one aspect of their new rules you're addressing. You're also not accounting for enemies moving forward, things like pile-ins/consolidations tying up multiple enemy units while denying Overwatch, etc.
Just let it go. I'm sick of retreading the same old topic with you. The Mob Rule and casualties-from-the-front removal (which you STILL haven't acknowledged) alone are enough to make Boyz far more viable than they used to be.
Whats TG? and where's the rest of our DA leaks with pictures?
4chan tg, only go there if brave nsfw
Blue boards are work safe, just expect insults, slurs and such to be hurled around a lot. Significantly less passive agressive tone than most forums once you get used to skipping over the unpleasant people though. Pros and cons.
Or maybe people realize you are not going to prevent 10+ boys from dying in a 30 boy squad in the average of 3 turns it takes them to get into reliable charge range because they move dirt freakin slow.
Which is why you have multiple units and other things in your army to draw firepower...you know, like a normal assault army that tries to constrict opponents through threat overload?
Besides, that's one aspect of their new rules you're addressing. You're also not accounting for enemies moving forward, things like pile-ins/consolidations tying up multiple enemy units while denying Overwatch, etc.
Just let it go. I'm sick of retreading the same old topic with you. The Mob Rule and casualties-from-the-front removal (which you STILL haven't acknowledged) alone are enough to make Boyz far more viable than they used to be.
dude I already acknowledge it you are the one ranting about how orks are elite. When I was already doing 3 str4 atks on the charge and hammer of wraith w the tide. I stopped responding to your nonsense because you are getting all riled up. My comments weren't directly about the tide it's how boy blobs and being pushed into them is to freakin slow for an objective game.
Bottom line is we will shortly see how it goes IMHO the lack of mobility makes orks uncompetitive.
gungo wrote: dude I already acknowledge it you are the one ranting about how orks are elite. When I was already doing 3 str4 atks on the charge and hammer of wraith w the tide. I stopped responding to your nonsense because you are getting all riled up.
Eh? Have you said anything about models being taken from the front? It might've been in an edit because I didn't see it. Not taking casualties from the front means you're not losing inches like you did before which offsets the 5" move, I just wanted to make that clear.
In what way am I saying Orks "are elite"? I'm saying they are IMPROVED which, given how bad they used to be, doesn't automatically mean I'm saying they are great. Instead of one super buffed unwieldy unit, you now get multiple units that are all more effective than they would've been in previous rules. Ergo, they are better.
Slugga Boyz in a Green Tide used to output 4 Strength 4 attacks each on the charge and any models in base contact did automatic Strength 3 hits at Initiative 2. However, those Orks would strike at Initiative 2 with their normal attacks. Now, they have 3 Strength 4 attacks each all the time, increasing to 4 each if they have 20+ models in a unit, and they hit all enemies (barring modifiers) on a 3+ whereas before they used to hit on 4+ against almost everything. Additionally, unless the enemy uses Command Points or has units that disrupt the chargers-strike-first mechanic, Orks now strike first on the charge rather than almost always going last at Initiative 2. They can also use their Sluggas in subsequent friendly Shooting phases if they stay locked in combat. Base Strength 4 and the new to-wound chart massively improves their effective damage output against almost everything both on and off the charge, not to mention the hitting on 3+ thing. They also do not get screwed over by Mob Rule anymore, and I'm talking generally, not a minimum 700+ point unwieldy formation when you gave it the mandatory characters it needed to function halfway decently.
Moving 1" less actually works out just fine for their mobility once you account for taking casualties from the front that is now gone, so no, I don't think they're going to be non-competitive because of mobility issues. There's also nothing stopping you mixing hordes with Trukks if you really need a mobile unit.
Brian888 wrote: I'm a little depressed that Magnus can now suffer from Perils. Hopefully these are stop-gap rules, and the actual codex will flesh out the models quite a bit more.
He is currently the undisputed king of the psychic phase right now though.
Do we know ephemeral form is yet? Horrors might be the new-new ultra-durable objective holders.
According to the Faction Focus, it's +1 to their invulnerable saves. We know Daemonic still gives a 5+ invulnerable save (the Helldrake has the exact same special rule, but it's spelled out what it does there) meaning Tzeentch Daemons are back to having 4+ invulnerable saves.
Horrors are odd, they're the most expensive lesser Daemon per model (for the Pinks anyway) but they have shooting attacks and are no worse than Guardsmen in combat. Their psychic abilities are poor though, even casting Smite is a challenge for them. I really like how they've handled the Blue/Brimstone rules though, having them keep identical Toughness and saves while splitting into the same unit alleviates so many potential headaches and simplifies the process massively. Paying for split Horrors on an individual basis is a stark improvement over the comparatively shoddy AoS system that makes you pay for 10 Horrors even if you only manage to get 1 or 2 from the split.
Shadow in the Warp is good! -1 to Psychic Test on a 2d6 is really excellent and Instinctive Behavior is much more forgiving (but harder to keep things in Synapse range). Synapse is super powerful - but 8" is really short range! It's a nice compromise.
I mean, being able to take Brimstones for 2ppm and park them somewhere and they get a 4++ isn't THAT bad, I guess. I'm still just underwhelmed by them.
Cephalobeard wrote: I mean, being able to take Brimstones for 2ppm and park them somewhere and they get a 4++ isn't THAT bad, I guess. I'm still just underwhelmed by them.
Hoping that "double-toughness" = "insta-death" mechanic isn't a thing in 8th...
If not, whoa... brimmies are great for objects/troops tax.
Brian888 wrote: I'm a little depressed that Magnus can now suffer from Perils. Hopefully these are stop-gap rules, and the actual codex will flesh out the models quite a bit more.
He is currently the undisputed king of the psychic phase right now though.
If individual psykers can't cast Smite more than once in the same turn (i.e. Magnus can't cast it three times in the same turn) then his actual psychic capabilities seem to be much weaker than they used to be, though given his other changes I think that's more than fair. If he can multi-cast Smite, he's suddenly way scarier as with his +2(?) to casting rolls at full health he will fairly easily output about 4D6 mortal wounds a turn (should be able to get all three off in the same turn and one should get up to the 10+ version) assuming some average rolls. It's all against the closest enemy units, but a 16" move means picking what you want to kill is super easy.
Also, first turn charges with Magnus are a thing with his Strength 16 blade
Brian888 wrote: I'm a little depressed that Magnus can now suffer from Perils. Hopefully these are stop-gap rules, and the actual codex will flesh out the models quite a bit more.
He is currently the undisputed king of the psychic phase right now though.
If individual psykers can't cast Smite more than once in the same turn (i.e. Magnus can't cast it three times in the same turn) then his actual psychic capabilities seem to be much weaker than they used to be, though given his other changes I think that's more than fair. If he can multi-cast Smite, he's suddenly way scarier as with his +2(?) to casting rolls at full health he will fairly easily output about 4D6 mortal wounds a turn (should be able to get all three off in the same turn and one should get up to the 10+ version) assuming some average rolls. It's all against the closest enemy units, but a 16" move means picking what you want to kill is super easy.
Also, first turn charges with Magnus are a thing with his Strength 16 blade
Don't forget he could opt not to use one use of Smite and give himself a double move, instead.
WrentheFaceless wrote: Sicarians kindof got hit with the nerf bat, but looks like they might be a bit cheaper now
Ruststalkers are pretty rough now, mortal wounds on 6s
Yeah, the lack of anything comparable to dunestrider hurts. That's a decrease in move speed, decrease in advance, and decrease in charge distance. Infiltrators can't even advance+shoot, as both weapons options are pistols.
Still, the deployment option for infiltrators is good, the guns are still fairly decent, and t3 and 4+ on 2 wounds is pretty survivable, without instant death around to screw everything up. Oh, and both are absolutely brutal once actually in combat.
Alpharius wrote: Mortal wounds sure do seem to be showing up a bit more frequently than we were lead to believe!
Actually, to me it seems that are less Mortal Wounds here than in AoS. But it compensates because I'm seeing here that models have less wounds that in AoS in general (For example, Tzaangors have 2 wounds in AoS but only 1 in 40K, and savage orcs had 2 wounds too, etc...), but you have big models with much more wounds. (The models with most wounds in AoS have like 20, Archaon, etc... a Stompa has 40!) and more weapons that do much more damage and with much higger AP values. -4 and -5 Ap are inexistant in AoS.
Saves in 40k are bigger too. 3+ saves in AoS are a big of a deal. Practically nobody has 2+.
Alpharius wrote: Mortal wounds sure do seem to be showing up a bit more frequently than we were lead to believe!
Actually, to me it seems that are less Mortal Wounds here than in AoS. But it compensates because I'm seeing here that models have less wounds that in AoS in general (For example, Tzaangors have 2 wounds in AoS but only 1 in 40K, and savage orcs had 2 wounds too, etc...), but you have big models with much more wounds. (The models with most wounds in AoS have like 20, Archaon, etc... a Stompa has 40!) and more weapons that do much more damage and with much higger AP values. -4 and -5 Ap are inexistant in AoS.
Saves in 40k are bigger too. 3+ saves in AoS are a big of a deal. Practically nobody has 2+.
I don't play AoS, so that's now what I was talking about?
And there really doesn't seem to be a way to avoid Mortal Wounds, for the most part.
I thought this edition's 'eternal warrior' might grant a save vs. them but...no!
lolman1c wrote: Wait, can ork boyz now have shootas and choppas in the same unit?
good spot dude! creates an interesting array of options there for cunning tactics
Actually pretty good. I have about 60 ork boyz models and half were shootas so now I can have 2 or 3 ork squads of 10 shootas and 10 choppas. With the shooting on advance I can do a lot of damage before I even clash!
Alpharius wrote: Mortal wounds sure do seem to be showing up a bit more frequently than we were lead to believe!
Actually, to me it seems that are less Mortal Wounds here than in AoS. But it compensates because I'm seeing here that models have less wounds that in AoS in general (For example, Tzaangors have 2 wounds in AoS but only 1 in 40K, and savage orcs had 2 wounds too, etc...), but you have big models with much more wounds. (The models with most wounds in AoS have like 20, Archaon, etc... a Stompa has 40!) and more weapons that do much more damage and with much higger AP values. -4 and -5 Ap are inexistant in AoS.
Saves in 40k are bigger too. 3+ saves in AoS are a big of a deal. Practically nobody has 2+.
I don't play AoS, so that's now what I was talking about?
And there really doesn't seem to be a way to avoid Mortal Wounds, for the most part.
I thought this edition's 'eternal warrior' might grant a save vs. them but...no!
Didn't all the FNP rules so far, the Nurgle ones for example, save Wounds AND Mortal Wounds?
Alpharius wrote: Mortal wounds sure do seem to be showing up a bit more frequently than we were lead to believe!
And in some silly circumstances. It seems that by far the most dangerous thing in the 40k universe is a fuel tank exploding.
The problem is calling them Mortal Wounds. "Enviroment and/or damage in relation with a force that isn't a weapon or just because we think is good for balance" wounds could be better.
Alpharius wrote: Mortal wounds sure do seem to be showing up a bit more frequently than we were lead to believe!
Actually, to me it seems that are less Mortal Wounds here than in AoS. But it compensates because I'm seeing here that models have less wounds that in AoS in general (For example, Tzaangors have 2 wounds in AoS but only 1 in 40K, and savage orcs had 2 wounds too, etc...), but you have big models with much more wounds. (The models with most wounds in AoS have like 20, Archaon, etc... a Stompa has 40!) and more weapons that do much more damage and with much higger AP values. -4 and -5 Ap are inexistant in AoS.
Saves in 40k are bigger too. 3+ saves in AoS are a big of a deal. Practically nobody has 2+.
I don't play AoS, so that's now what I was talking about?
And there really doesn't seem to be a way to avoid Mortal Wounds, for the most part.
I thought this edition's 'eternal warrior' might grant a save vs. them but...no!
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing tbh, there's a lot of units that do mortal wounds for basic things which really seems out of whack. Primaris Jump pack guys do mortal wounds by ramming, really? I was thinking mortal wounds would be weapons and abilities that armor would not prtoect you from, Psychic attacks for instance, but it seems like everyone and their brother gets easy access to them. Looks like some of the different versions of FnP are about the only things that can save mortal wounds.
Mephiston's Lord of Death ability protects from them, and it looks like the Death Companies Black Rage will too.
lolman1c wrote: Wait, can ork boyz now have shootas and choppas in the same unit?
good spot dude! creates an interesting array of options there for cunning tactics
Actually pretty good. I have about 60 ork boyz models and half were shootas so now I can have 2 or 3 ork squads of 10 shootas and 10 choppas. With the shooting on advance I can do a lot of damage before I even clash!
not to mention with split fire as standard you can even pepper something upto 18" away then charge something else so they don't remove models from the front of the unit you wanna charge.
also with a bit footprint this opens up all sorts of options e.g. 10 shootas left of the unit, 10 on the right 10 choppas in the middle 20 shots at two units (or however you wanna do it) then charge in choppa boyz headlong.. even sprinkle in some rokkits and have them fire at other units!
Why does GW insist on making transonic blades suck? Just like in seventh there was absolutely no reason to take them over a transonic razor and a chord claw. Never mind the fact that ruststalkers got nerfed into Oblivion in the first place. Slow-moving and don't get any bonuses for wielding two weapons
Didn't all the FNP rules so far, the Nurgle ones for example, save Wounds AND Mortal Wounds?
Nurgle rule only calls out regular wounds.
Disgustingly Resilient is activated every time a model loses a wound, which can be the result of a regular attack or a Mortal Wound, so effectively DR is an extra "save" that works against Mortal Wounds (although it isn't technically a save).
Didn't all the FNP rules so far, the Nurgle ones for example, save Wounds AND Mortal Wounds?
Nurgle rule only calls out regular wounds.
Disgustingly Resilient is activated every time a model loses a wound, which can be the result of a regular attack or a Mortal Wound, so effectively DR is an extra "save" that works against Mortal Wounds (although it isn't technically a save).
Yeah! I remember reading that. Mortal Wounds are needed even more in 40k than in AoS for all the invulnerable saves out there that don't exist in AoS.
They are the weapon to have in chek those inmortal elite units.
Seriously, as nice as the jetbike is, I want to know if Sableclaw is usable for once. Well, I do see the top of a 6 on Toughness, so that's a good sign (and 16" move is nice).
Thanks for the post though. Looking good so far.
I also just want to add, I like that our rule finally targets Fallen, rather than Chaos marines. More limited? Yup, but makes a lot more sense than Hate(CSM) did.
Shadow in the Warp is good! -1 to Psychic Test on a 2d6 is really excellent and Instinctive Behavior is much more forgiving (but harder to keep things in Synapse range). Synapse is super powerful - but 8" is really short range! It's a nice compromise.
NICE i like it. So Tyranid monster explode now when they die ^^ sorry i mean they do a death throes. So they are all Slayers now ^^ I get the feeling stuff is just gonna f***ing die in 8th.
Shadow in the Warp is good! -1 to Psychic Test on a 2d6 is really excellent and Instinctive Behavior is much more forgiving (but harder to keep things in Synapse range). Synapse is super powerful - but 8" is really short range! It's a nice compromise.
NICE i like it. So Tyranid monster explode now when they die ^^ sorry i mean they do a death throes. So they are all Slayers now ^^ I get the feeling stuff is just gonna f***ing die in 8th.
Yeah I love the Death Throes. Very fluffy! Go and kill a Tyranid monster in close combat and watch as it stomps all over your unit in death.
Shadow in the Warp is good! -1 to Psychic Test on a 2d6 is really excellent and Instinctive Behavior is much more forgiving (but harder to keep things in Synapse range). Synapse is super powerful - but 8" is really short range! It's a nice compromise.
NICE i like it. So Tyranid monster explode now when they die ^^ sorry i mean they do a death throes. So they are all Slayers now ^^ I get the feeling stuff is just gonna f***ing die in 8th.
Yeah I love the Death Throes. Very fluffy! Go and kill a Tyranid monster in close combat and watch as it stomps all over your unit in death.
The Haruspex is hilarious, and the Toxicrene looks absolutely deadly. Here's the link I posted earlier. http://imgur.com/a/IY9ks
So is 40k going to be more strict on what your model is equipped with or lighten up some? I play Daemons in AoS but was hoping to use them in 40k to get into it, but clearly not of my models are armed with blasters...
For those wondering why thousand sons psy powsrs are limited to base chaos marine ones is that the other powers seen are for daemons of that particular god.
The index books are a get you by until codex books come back out. The index brings every model up to 8th without leaving them waiting.
Supposedly the first 2 books are primaris and death guard. DG boolk should have mortarion, dg terminators, legion rules and new psy powers for death guard. Tzeentch, slaanesh, khorne etc will get similar treatment.
A lot of things in the index books will change when specific books come out
In all of these leaks, do we still not know anything about cover saves from intervening models or buildings?
leaked core rules just say +1 to save if entire unit is on a terrain piece. Some special abilities modify this save. We're told that terrain dataslates will have more specific rules for more specific terrain models.
Draigo's pretty darn powerful, that's for sure. Re-rolling Damage in the Fight phase looks a bit odd until you remember most Grey Knights have Force Weapons which are now Power Weapons that deal D3 Damage each I'm expecting he'll cost a fair chunk of points.
Good lord, there are people on there that think Chaos Marines are utterly useless outside of Death Guard and Thousand Sons And according to some people there, Berzerkers and Kharn are worthless!? Yep, that's 4chan alright
Luciferian wrote: No wonder Apothecaries and Ancients cost so much, they are full-on multiwound characters now.
I'm loving this, it reminds me so much of 2nd Edition. Now I can properly field Brother Bethor as the Emperor intended (I wonder if they'll give him rules again?).
Good lord, there are people on there that think Chaos Marines are utterly useless outside of Death Guard and Thousand Sons And according to some people there, Berzerkers and Kharn are worthless!? Yep, that's 4chan alright
Keep in mind that everyone is trolling everyone on 4chan, so you can't really take anything anyone says at face value.
Seriously, as nice as the jetbike is, I want to know if Sableclaw is usable for once. Well, I do see the top of a 6 on Toughness, so that's a good sign (and 16" move is nice).
Thanks for the post though. Looking good so far.
I also just want to add, I like that our rule finally targets Fallen, rather than Chaos marines. More limited? Yup, but makes a lot more sense than Hate(CSM) did.
If Sableclaw ever would be viable, it'll be now that vehicles behave like every other model in terms of stats. A lucky vehicle destroyed result should no longer be the bane of sableclaw.
Good lord, there are people on there that think Chaos Marines are utterly useless outside of Death Guard and Thousand Sons And according to some people there, Berzerkers and Kharn are worthless!? Yep, that's 4chan alright
They're [MOD EDIT - Alpharius] gakposting.
In the thread before that someone said in all caps that boyz were 12ppm and GW had ruined the army.
So as best I can tell, Chaos Daemons have lost all innate deep strike ability (except maybe models with wings). That's... A change. And not a good one. Slaanesh also lost their +3"/6" to run and only gained "always strike first" which they mainly already had due to high init. No more rerolls on run/charge distance either. Not really sure they needed to lose all that...
skarsol wrote: So as best I can tell, Chaos Daemons have lost all innate deep strike ability (except maybe models with wings). That's... A change. And not a good one. Slaanesh also lost their +3"/6" to run and only gained "always strike first" which they mainly already had due to high init. No more rerolls on run/charge distance either. Not really sure they needed to lose all that...
Honestly the impression I've been getting is that Daemons are up there with Tau and Dark Eldar for most gutted armies in 8th.
BUT, I've also heard that while Dark Eldar are more bland and optionless then ever before the stuff they do have is pretty strong, so maybe it's that way for daemons as well.
skarsol wrote: So as best I can tell, Chaos Daemons have lost all innate deep strike ability (except maybe models with wings). That's... A change. And not a good one. Slaanesh also lost their +3"/6" to run and only gained "always strike first" which they mainly already had due to high init. No more rerolls on run/charge distance either. Not really sure they needed to lose all that...
skarsol wrote: So as best I can tell, Chaos Daemons have lost all innate deep strike ability (except maybe models with wings). That's... A change. And not a good one. Slaanesh also lost their +3"/6" to run and only gained "always strike first" which they mainly already had due to high init. No more rerolls on run/charge distance either. Not really sure they needed to lose all that...
Honestly the impression I've been getting is that Daemons are up there with Tau and Dark Eldar for most gutted armies in 8th.
BUT, I've also heard that while Dark Eldar are more bland and optionless then ever before the stuff they do have is pretty strong, so maybe it's that way for daemons as well.
Dark Eldar gutted? As far as I've seen, people are liking it. Which nerfs did they suffer?
skarsol wrote: So as best I can tell, Chaos Daemons have lost all innate deep strike ability (except maybe models with wings). That's... A change. And not a good one. Slaanesh also lost their +3"/6" to run and only gained "always strike first" which they mainly already had due to high init. No more rerolls on run/charge distance either. Not really sure they needed to lose all that...
I dunno... I think most daemons are playable now, instead of some power netlist.
Also, the new summoning mechanic is interesting:
Spoiler:
DAEMONIC RITUAL
Instead of moving in their Movement phase, any Chaos Character can, at the end of their Movement phase, attempt to summon a Daemon unit with this ability by performing a Daemonic Ritual (the character cannot do so if they arrived as reinforcements this turn, or if they themselves have been summoned to the battlefield this turn).
If they do so, first choose one of the four Chaos Gods - Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle or Slaanesh. A Character who owes allegiance to one of the Dark Gods can only attempt to summon the units of their patron - for example, a Khorne Character could only attempt to summon Khorne Daemons.
Roll up to 3 dice - this is your summoning roll. You can summon one new unit with the Daemonic Ritual ability to the battelfiel that has a Power Rating equal to or less than the total resutl so long as it has the same Chaos God keyword you chose at the start (in the case of units that have the choice of allegiance, such as Furies, the unit when summoned will have this keyword). This unit is treated as reinforcements for your army and can be placed anywhere on the battlefield that is entirely within 12" of the character and is more than 9" from any enemy model. If the total rolled is insufficient to summon any unit, the ritual fails and no new unit is summoned.
If you summoning roll included any doubles, your character then suffers a mortal wound. If it contained any triples, it instead suffers D3 mortal wounds.
According to this... Be'lakor can summon units!
Weirdly... Heldrakes can now be "summoned"?? o.O
EDIT: heldrakes are not aligned with a god, so... nope, can't be summoned. Dang it.
But summoning is a massive cost. You have to give up your movement phase for a character, it has to be the same god, and it's not reliable for anything over like 7 power points. And you get to maybe take mortal wounds too...
Your only Khorne char dies to shooting turn 1? Hope you didn't want to summon Khorne models. Everything else seems to have kept their deep strike and it's even better now with no scatter.
Good lord, there are people on there that think Chaos Marines are utterly useless outside of Death Guard and Thousand Sons And according to some people there, Berzerkers and Kharn are worthless!? Yep, that's 4chan alright
I think that's mostly people being upset marks no longer give bonuses. But hey, at least they are complaing about slutty 12 year olds 5 posts in this time. Progress!
Grey Knight rules are very interesting. Outside of using Stern, their Smite ranges are all reduced and they do less mortal wounds than normal unless Daemons are the victims of the power. Purifiers on the other hand have a tiny range but always do D6 mortal wounds when they cast Smite. I really like that and it fits in nicely with the Rubric Marine Aspiring Sorcerers (Smite does 1 or D3 instead of D3 or D6) so that basic Brotherhood of Psyker units can't just flood the board with a plethora of mortal wounds.
Eager to see the landspeeder datasheet. they're more expensive, before weapons, than rhinos. Bodes well for some much-needed durability.
An Outrider detachment spamming all speeders is like a dream army for me...
skarsol wrote: So as best I can tell, Chaos Daemons have lost all innate deep strike ability (except maybe models with wings). That's... A change. And not a good one. Slaanesh also lost their +3"/6" to run and only gained "always strike first" which they mainly already had due to high init. No more rerolls on run/charge distance either. Not really sure they needed to lose all that...
I dunno... I think most daemons are playable now, instead of some power netlist.
Also, the new summoning mechanic is interesting:
Spoiler:
DAEMONIC RITUAL
Instead of moving in their Movement phase, any Chaos
Character can, at the end of their Movement phase, attempt
to summon a Daemon unit with this ability by performing a
Daemonic Ritual (the character cannot do so if they arrived
as reinforcements this turn, or if they themselves have been
summoned to the battlefield this turn).
If they do so, first choose one of the four Chaos Gods - Khorne,
Tzeentch, Nurgle or Slaanesh. A Character who owes
allegiance to one of the Dark Gods can only attempt to summon the units of
their patron - for example, a Khorne Character could only attempt to
summon Khorne Daemons.
Roll up to 3 dice - this is your summoning roll. You can summon
one new unit with the Daemonic Ritual ability to the battelfiel that
has a Power Rating equal to or less than the total resutl so long
as it has the same Chaos God keyword you chose at the start
(in the case of units that have the choice of allegiance, such as Furies,
the unit when summoned will have this keyword). This unit is treated as
reinforcements for your army and can be placed anywhere on the
battlefield that is entirely within 12" of the character and is more
than 9" from any enemy model. If the total rolled is insufficient to
summon any unit, the ritual fails and no new unit is summoned.
If you summoning roll included any doubles, your character then
suffers a mortal wound. If it contained any triples, it instead suffers
D3 mortal wounds.
According to this... Be'lakor can summon units!
Weirdly... Heldrakes can now be "summoned"?? o.O
EDIT: heldrakes are not aligned with a god, so... nope, can't be summoned. Dang it.
Flood wrote: Eager to see the landspeeder datasheet. they're more expensive, before weapons, than rhinos. Bodes well for some much-needed durability.
An Outrider detachment spamming all speeders is like a dream army for me...
That's a great point. For the first time since Angels of Death, Dark Angels will be able to run the all-speeder army again.
Sammael in Sableclaw and spamming as many land speeders as possible.
Probably not as broken as it was in 2nd, so now my opponent can have fun as well!
skarsol wrote: So as best I can tell, Chaos Daemons have lost all innate deep strike ability (except maybe models with wings). That's... A change. And not a good one. Slaanesh also lost their +3"/6" to run and only gained "always strike first" which they mainly already had due to high init. No more rerolls on run/charge distance either. Not really sure they needed to lose all that...
I dunno... I think most daemons are playable now, instead of some power netlist.
Also, the new summoning mechanic is interesting:
Spoiler:
DAEMONIC RITUAL
Instead of moving in their Movement phase, any Chaos Character can, at the end of their Movement phase, attempt to summon a Daemon unit with this ability by performing a Daemonic Ritual (the character cannot do so if they arrived as reinforcements this turn, or if they themselves have been summoned to the battlefield this turn).
If they do so, first choose one of the four Chaos Gods - Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle or Slaanesh. A Character who owes allegiance to one of the Dark Gods can only attempt to summon the units of their patron - for example, a Khorne Character could only attempt to summon Khorne Daemons.
Roll up to 3 dice - this is your summoning roll. You can summon one new unit with the Daemonic Ritual ability to the battelfiel that has a Power Rating equal to or less than the total resutl so long as it has the same Chaos God keyword you chose at the start (in the case of units that have the choice of allegiance, such as Furies, the unit when summoned will have this keyword). This unit is treated as reinforcements for your army and can be placed anywhere on the battlefield that is entirely within 12" of the character and is more than 9" from any enemy model. If the total rolled is insufficient to summon any unit, the ritual fails and no new unit is summoned.
If you summoning roll included any doubles, your character then suffers a mortal wound. If it contained any triples, it instead suffers D3 mortal wounds.
According to this... Be'lakor can summon units!
Weirdly... Heldrakes can now be "summoned"?? o.O
EDIT: heldrakes are not aligned with a god, so... nope, can't be summoned. Dang it.
Yup... but it seems you can simply roll the 3d6, THEN decide what unit to summon based on that result. Provided, of course, you have the reinforcment points.
Seems nifty.
As for summoning heldrakes... I'm now back to the belief that its possible. Heh.
skarsol wrote: So as best I can tell, Chaos Daemons have lost all innate deep strike ability (except maybe models with wings). That's... A change. And not a good one. Slaanesh also lost their +3"/6" to run and only gained "always strike first" which they mainly already had due to high init. No more rerolls on run/charge distance either. Not really sure they needed to lose all that...
I dunno... I think most daemons are playable now, instead of some power netlist.
Also, the new summoning mechanic is interesting:
Spoiler:
DAEMONIC RITUAL
Instead of moving in their Movement phase, any Chaos
Character can, at the end of their Movement phase, attempt
to summon a Daemon unit with this ability by performing a
Daemonic Ritual (the character cannot do so if they arrived
as reinforcements this turn, or if they themselves have been
summoned to the battlefield this turn).
If they do so, first choose one of the four Chaos Gods - Khorne,
Tzeentch, Nurgle or Slaanesh. A Character who owes
allegiance to one of the Dark Gods can only attempt to summon the units of
their patron - for example, a Khorne Character could only attempt to
summon Khorne Daemons.
Roll up to 3 dice - this is your summoning roll. You can summon
one new unit with the Daemonic Ritual ability to the battelfiel that
has a Power Rating equal to or less than the total resutl so long
as it has the same Chaos God keyword you chose at the start
(in the case of units that have the choice of allegiance, such as Furies,
the unit when summoned will have this keyword). This unit is treated as
reinforcements for your army and can be placed anywhere on the
battlefield that is entirely within 12" of the character and is more
than 9" from any enemy model. If the total rolled is insufficient to
summon any unit, the ritual fails and no new unit is summoned.
If you summoning roll included any doubles, your character then
suffers a mortal wound. If it contained any triples, it instead suffers
D3 mortal wounds.
According to this... Be'lakor can summon units!
Weirdly... Heldrakes can now be "summoned"?? o.O
EDIT: heldrakes are not aligned with a god, so... nope, can't be summoned. Dang it.
Yup... but it seems you can simply roll the 3d6, THEN decide what unit to summon based on that result. Provided, of course, you have the reinforcment points.
Seems nifty.
As for summoning heldrakes... I'm now back to the belief that its possible. Heh.
I don't believe we had seen confirmation on Reinforcement Points until now, so I thought it best to point it out to prevent any confusion.
skarsol wrote: And 3d6 is avg of 11.5 power points with 44% chance of taking at least one mortal wounds. :(
Meh... seems like everyone get's a bump in the wounds department.
Also, keep in mind that this isn't "spammable" like the current 7ed.
Just a new twists to summon things.
I think I'd rather summon a Daemon Prince instead.
It's not like you don't have to pay the points for what you summon. They just added a bunch of costs and hoops to jump through to do something that every Daemon model used to do innately. Its not like Daemons have transports.
Something curious I've noted. So far nobody has leaked anything about faction stratagems.
Based on how the Grand Alliance system works in AoS, I think there was some expectation that the "large" factions like Imperium, Chaos, Aeldari etc. would have their own general use stratagems. Then each faction within these larger factions would have their own specific, tailored stratagems. Thus you'd get more benefit out of focusing on an individual faction like Astra Militarum rather than mixing Imperium units, and more benefit yet than an army that mixed Imperium and Aeldari units.
The fact that nothing of the sort has leaked so far suggests that this isn't the case- that instead there will only be faction-specific stratagems in each faction's codex, and the Imperium/Chaos/whatever keywords only exist to restrict army composition to their respective alliances.
This makes sense to me- since there already a set of generic stratagems available to all armies and each faction will be getting their own, having "large faction" stratagems are probably not necessary, and possibly a balance concern. Kind of like how nobody uses the Bonesplitterz faction bonuses, instead using the Destruction grand alliance bonus since it's so much better.
In all of these leaks, do we still not know anything about cover saves from intervening models or buildings?
leaked core rules just say +1 to save if entire unit is on a terrain piece. Some special abilities modify this save. We're told that terrain dataslates will have more specific rules for more specific terrain models.
I really hope something prevents units shooting at enemy units completely on the other side of terrain like the Citadel Wood.
No "Xenos" keyword, either faction or on the unit. Puts to rest the concerns of folks who thought there'd be a xenos "Grand Alliance," but also seems to miss an opportunity to have an easy activation keyword for stuff like Deathwatch.
I guess it's not too bad for Magnus at the moment. Assuming his psychic bonus is +2 at full health, he has at least an 83% chance (barring Deny the Witch) to have at least a 32" threat range in any given turn when he's at full wounds, he swings at 2+ to hit (re-rolling 1s) with seven attacks at 16 strength, AP -4, and 3 wounds apiece, on top of his psychic dakka that has at least a 91% chance of causing d6 mortal wounds (and at least a 41% chance of causing 2d6 mortal wounds). That's awfully lethal.
Eager to see those GK rules. But there's no way in hell I'm wading through 4-chan to read it.
Loving the CSM rules for the most part, but the Obliterators are... well, unimpressive. I don't know why they can't just go back to using Las, Plas, meltas, asscans, flamers & fists. Just doesn't seem right. However, I'm glad there's no more challenges & that Champ of Chaos is no longer a thing. One of the worst things out of the previous books. Now if I can just get my Night Lords book, to go along with my Thousand Sons book, I think I'll be set for 8th.
Man, I can not wait to have this in my hands. I got my pre-order in w/ my FLGS today and now it feels more real than ever. My friends and I have been discussing this, and we all agree that we haven't been this excited for a new edition ever.
Brian888 wrote: I guess it's not too bad for Magnus at the moment. Assuming his psychic bonus is +2 at full health, he has at least an 83% chance (barring Deny the Witch) to have at least a 32" threat range in any given turn when he's at full wounds, he swings at 2+ to hit (re-rolling 1s) with seven attacks at 16 strength, AP -4, and 3 wounds apiece, on top of his psychic dakka that has at least a 91% chance of causing d6 mortal wounds (and at least a 41% chance of causing 2d6 mortal wounds). That's awfully lethal.
My current army idea is basically:
Magnus
4 Heralds on Discs
18 Screamers
40 Tzaangors
3 Burning Chariots
28 Brimstone Horrors.
Roughly 2k
Will have roughly 4-5 CP, and moves reeeeeal quick. Magnus is a beauty and the ability to just do a <Tzeentch> army is great.
I know all those are just temporary so that we can play with our models right away like AoS did wit all the Oldhammer factions, but still i'm kinda dissapointed...
We finally get Legions rules after years, and 6 months later, gone, what was even the point?
Would have been better to not release this book at all and keep it for 8th.
I'm very underwhelmed with Kharn.
While he got finaly a 4++ save, 5 wounds and 3+ save is measly, he as no FnP like rule, wich makes him very vulnerable vs Mortal wounds, wich is ironic when you know the guy is renowed for shrugging off Wounds that would be Mortal for anyone else...
His plasma pistol has only one profile and inflicts a mortal wound on a 1 to hit roll.
He cannot reroll 1's to hit roll made in CC in any way and he gives a buff to WE units but only in a 1" radius...come on thats ridiculous!
Yes he can fight Twice per Phase wich is good honestly.
He also lost the Blood God Blessing!!! HE'S VULNERABLE TO PSY POWERS!!!, HERESY!!, SABOTAGE!!!
Luciferian wrote: No wonder Apothecaries and Ancients cost so much, they are full-on multiwound characters now.
The unfortunate part about this is that they eat up an Elite slot all by themselves. So it makes it a little harder to stick them in some armies.
Eh, honestly I don't think that's too big a problem, you don't need that many, and troops are looking more competitive this edition.
Plus, you can spend CP to get extra Elite slots if you really need them.
Oh I know. And I could sacrifice 2 CP to do the Elites Mandatory Detachment as well. It isn't a huge deal, I am just saying that it is something one needs to be cognizant of.
I really hope GW didn't make it so Primaris Marines can't ride in Rhinos. It is bad enough that they can't ride in a Drop Pod. This might actually make or break Primaris Marines for me. Blood Angels might be the ones that receive them instead, especially with those cool Inceptors.
I really wish the Astartes Rhino would finally get leaked.
Brian888 wrote: I guess it's not too bad for Magnus at the moment. Assuming his psychic bonus is +2 at full health, he has at least an 83% chance (barring Deny the Witch) to have at least a 32" threat range in any given turn when he's at full wounds, he swings at 2+ to hit (re-rolling 1s) with seven attacks at 16 strength, AP -4, and 3 wounds apiece, on top of his psychic dakka that has at least a 91% chance of causing d6 mortal wounds (and at least a 41% chance of causing 2d6 mortal wounds). That's awfully lethal.
My current army idea is basically:
Magnus
4 Heralds on Discs
18 Screamers
40 Tzaangors
3 Burning Chariots
28 Brimstone Horrors.
Roughly 2k
Will have roughly 4-5 CP, and moves reeeeeal quick. Magnus is a beauty and the ability to just do a <Tzeentch> army is great.
Does that 4-5 CP count the 3 you get for simply being battle-forged?
skarsol wrote: So as best I can tell, Chaos Daemons have lost all innate deep strike ability (except maybe models with wings). That's... A change. And not a good one. Slaanesh also lost their +3"/6" to run and only gained "always strike first" which they mainly already had due to high init. No more rerolls on run/charge distance either. Not really sure they needed to lose all that...
Honestly the impression I've been getting is that Daemons are up there with Tau and Dark Eldar for most gutted armies in 8th.
BUT, I've also heard that while Dark Eldar are more bland and optionless then ever before the stuff they do have is pretty strong, so maybe it's that way for daemons as well.
Dark Eldar gutted? As far as I've seen, people are liking it. Which nerfs did they suffer?
skarsol wrote: So as best I can tell, Chaos Daemons have lost all innate deep strike ability (except maybe models with wings). That's... A change. And not a good one. Slaanesh also lost their +3"/6" to run and only gained "always strike first" which they mainly already had due to high init. No more rerolls on run/charge distance either. Not really sure they needed to lose all that...
Honestly the impression I've been getting is that Daemons are up there with Tau and Dark Eldar for most gutted armies in 8th.
BUT, I've also heard that while Dark Eldar are more bland and optionless then ever before the stuff they do have is pretty strong, so maybe it's that way for daemons as well.
Dark Eldar gutted? As far as I've seen, people are liking it. Which nerfs did they suffer?
Apparently, skimmer spam is dead and gone, WWPs are gone, reavers are significantly more expensive while also losing options (calttrops are apparently a shadow of their former selves) and melee archons are still unusable.
But due to how strong Deldar ranged special weapons are and how fast and cheap their basic infantry is foot-dar is shaping up to be extremely strong.
I haven't personally seen any of the Deldar rules sans PfP and combat drugs, so I can't verify much of this.
While he got finaly a 4++ save, 5 wounds and 3+ save is measly, he as no FnP like rule, wich makes him very vulnerable vs Mortal wounds, wich is ironic when you know the guy is renowed for shrugging off Wounds that would be Mortal for anyone else...
His plasma pistol has only one profile and inflicts a mortal wound on a 1 to hit roll.
He cannot reroll 1's to hit roll made in CC in any way and he gives a buff to WE units but only in a 1" radius...come on thats ridiculous!
Yes he can fight Twice per Phase wich is good honestly.
He also lost the Blood God Blessing!!! HE'S VULNERABLE TO PSY POWERS!!!, HERESY!!, SABOTAGE!!!
Ah, finally, someone who agrees with me on this one. Les grands esprits...
I'm not sure why he's so expensive (more than Typhus) when his resistance is not all that impressive. Given the information we have, I think a Chaos lord on juggernaut would easily be better for a similar points cost. As long as you can buy a 4++ and a decent melee weapon from the Champion equipment list, the generic lord on juggernaut should be at least comparable. I would expect the jug' to give extra speed and resistance, making it even better.
Khârn's only real advantage is gorechild. The re-rolls for friendlies and The Betrayer rule kind of cancel one another imho. And his plasma pistol is gakky.
WrentheFaceless wrote: Sicarians kindof got hit with the nerf bat, but looks like they might be a bit cheaper now
Ruststalkers are pretty rough now, mortal wounds on 6s
I really like the infiltrators. Without any scatter or reserve roll, place over 9" (within 12" or 18"), open up with 25 S3 shots or 15 S4 shots. I also like them being a surprise anti infantry attack by putting them within 6" of a techpriest that just moved forward. The same barrage of shots but rerolling 1s to hit.
Monstrous Scything Talons: You can reroll rolls of 1 to hit when attacking with this weapon. If the weapon-bearer has more than one pair of scything talons, they can make an additional attack in close combat.
Prehensile Pincher - probably the tail biomorph? The note says, I think, you can make one attack with this weapon in place of one of your regular attacks.
Equipment Options: The Hive Tyrant can replace a pair of Scything Talons for a weapon on the monstrous bio-weapons or monstrous *can't decipher* table
The Hive Tyrant can replace two pair of Scything Talons for weapons on the same table
The Hive Tyrant can have wings. use the second movement characteristic on the table above, and gain the Fly keyword.
This model can take toxin sacs or adrenal glands.
Abilities: Shadow in the Warp
Will of the Hive Mind: A model with this ability has a 12" range for Shadow in the Warp instead of 8"
Death Throes: If this model is reduced to 0 wounds, roll a D6 before it is removed. On a 6, each unit within 3" receives D3 mortal wounds
Psychic Barrier/Shield - This model has a 5+ invulnerable Save
Psyker: The Hiv Tyrant can attempt to manifest two powers during each friendly psychic phase, and can attemt to deny the witch twice during each enemy psychic phase. I knows the power Smite and two powers from the Powers of the Hive Mind discipline.
Monstrous Scything Talons: You can reroll rolls of 1 to hit when attacking with this weapon. If the weapon-bearer has more than one pair of scything talons, they can make an additional attack in close combat.
Prehensile Pincher - probably the tail biomorph? The note says, I think, you can make one attack with this weapon in place of one of your regular attacks.
Equipment Options: The Hive Tyrant can replace a pair of Scything Talons for a weapon on the monstrous bio-weapons or monstrous *can't decipher* table
The Hive Tyrant can replace two pair of Scything Talons for weapons on the same table
The Hive Tyrant can have wings. use the second movement characteristic on the table above, and gain the Fly keyword.
This model can take toxin sacs or adrenal glands.
Abilities: Shadow in the Warp
Will of the Hive Mind: A model with this ability has a 12" range for Shadow in the Warp instead of 8"
Death Throes: If this model is reduced to 0 wounds, roll a D6 before it is removed. On a 6, each unit within 3" receives D3 mortal wounds
Psychic Barrier/Shield - This model has a 5+ invulnerable Save
Psyker: The Hiv Tyrant can attempt to manifest two powers during each friendly psychic phase, and can attemt to deny the witch twice during each enemy psychic phase. I knows the power Smite and two powers from the Powers of the Hive Mind discipline.
Anyone see what go to ground does? There's a dice to mark a unit as having done it, but I don't see the effect anywhere. Possibly a scenario only rule?
kestral wrote: Anyone see what go to ground does? There's a dice to mark a unit as having done it, but I don't see the effect anywhere. Possibly a scenario only rule?
I'd like to believe it's for if a unit does not move, its cover bonus from being in a ruin is increased from a +1 to their Armour Save to +2 using the Cities of Death advanced rules.
Rending claws - s:User AP-1 D:1. 6s to wound are AP -4
Large rending claws - AP -3 d3. Reroll to wound, 6s are AP-6 and D3 (I believe these are on the broodlord)
Lash whip and bonesword - as bonesword pairs (above) but instead of +1 attack instead they allow the bearer to strike in melee even if they are killed before getting to attack that phase. Then the model is removed.
kestral wrote: Anyone see what go to ground does? There's a dice to mark a unit as having done it, but I don't see the effect anywhere. Possibly a scenario only rule?
Haven't seen anything about that in the Core Rules leaked so far.
Man, I can not wait to have this in my hands. I got my pre-order in w/ my FLGS today and now it feels more real than ever. My friends and I have been discussing this, and we all agree that we haven't been this excited for a new edition ever.
Me too!
How many editions have you been playing?
I loved 2nd, hated 3rd, liked 4th and 5th, and 6th and 7th drove me out of 40K.
So, I'm...cautiously optimistic for 8th, as it looks like an...OK combo of 2nd and 3rd?
If that makes sense?
I'm REALLY looking forward to the new Primaris models though!
Man, I can not wait to have this in my hands. I got my pre-order in w/ my FLGS today and now it feels more real than ever. My friends and I have been discussing this, and we all agree that we haven't been this excited for a new edition ever.
Me too!
How many editions have you been playing?
I loved 2nd, hated 3rd, liked 4th and 5th, and 6th and 7th drove me out of 40K.
So, I'm...cautiously optimistic for 8th, as it looks like an...OK combo of 2nd and 3rd?
If that makes sense?
I'm REALLY looking forward to the new Primaris models though!
Thats funny, thats exactly what I did. started in 2nd, quit when 3rd came out because I hated it. I came back in 4th, and like it a lot. Played in 5th and 6th, but was going down hill pretty rapidly and then come 7th, I never bothered to even play a game as I could tell from the rules how terrible it was.
I'm ready to get back into 40k for 8th, IF the things GW are proclaiming are true. Game times way down, simplified rule set, balanced game(or as much as it can be) etc etc. We'll see, i'm not going all in yet because I know how GW is since I've been dealing with them for so long, but things look brighter now than they have in the better part of a decade, so only time will tell.
Man, those GK rules look juicy. They're still gonna be expensive to run, but man, they're gonna be nasty in CC. And the fact that they don't have to pay for melee weapon upgrades except for the hammer. Interceptors can assault after teleport shunting. Oh man. Golden!
Man, I can not wait to have this in my hands. I got my pre-order in w/ my FLGS today and now it feels more real than ever. My friends and I have been discussing this, and we all agree that we haven't been this excited for a new edition ever.
Me too!
How many editions have you been playing?
I loved 2nd, hated 3rd, liked 4th and 5th, and 6th and 7th drove me out of 40K.
So, I'm...cautiously optimistic for 8th, as it looks like an...OK combo of 2nd and 3rd?
If that makes sense?
I'm REALLY looking forward to the new Primaris models though!
I think your edition history is true for many of us greybeards. Rogue trader was getting into the 40K universe background and gawking at miniatures, 2nd edition was great fun times, 3rd was a change to the worse, 4th was when the tourney scene boomed and the game was big, 5th is when it got worse and 6th and 7th were utter garbage, and 8th is when we hope for the golden days to return again. Probably a fool's hope, but it's been a roller coaster.
Still nothing concrete on AdMech and Chaos Daemons, huh? Just bits an pieces. Why are they even posting like 1 out of 10 pages randomly?
Anyway, Daemons seem to be hit with a HUGE nerf bat.
AdMech seems to have received quite a buff. Sicarians now cost 100 pts intead of 250+ which is pretty great since they... didn't lose THAT much...
Man, I can not wait to have this in my hands. I got my pre-order in w/ my FLGS today and now it feels more real than ever. My friends and I have been discussing this, and we all agree that we haven't been this excited for a new edition ever.
Me too!
How many editions have you been playing?
I loved 2nd, hated 3rd, liked 4th and 5th, and 6th and 7th drove me out of 40K.
So, I'm...cautiously optimistic for 8th, as it looks like an...OK combo of 2nd and 3rd?
If that makes sense?
I'm REALLY looking forward to the new Primaris models though!
I think your edition history is true for many of us greybeards. Rogue trader was getting into the 40K universe background and gawking at miniatures, 2nd edition was great fun times, 3rd was a change to the worse, 4th was when the tourney scene boomed and the game was big, 5th is when it got worse and 6th and 7th were utter garbage, and 8th is when we hope for the golden days to return again. Probably a fool's hope, but it's been a roller coaster.
Man, I can not wait to have this in my hands. I got my pre-order in w/ my FLGS today and now it feels more real than ever. My friends and I have been discussing this, and we all agree that we haven't been this excited for a new edition ever.
Me too!
How many editions have you been playing?
I loved 2nd, hated 3rd, liked 4th and 5th, and 6th and 7th drove me out of 40K.
So, I'm...cautiously optimistic for 8th, as it looks like an...OK combo of 2nd and 3rd?
If that makes sense?
I'm REALLY looking forward to the new Primaris models though!
I think your edition history is true for many of us greybeards. Rogue trader was getting into the 40K universe background and gawking at miniatures, 2nd edition was great fun times, 3rd was a change to the worse, 4th was when the tourney scene boomed and the game was big, 5th is when it got worse and 6th and 7th were utter garbage, and 8th is when we hope for the golden days to return again. Probably a fool's hope, but it's been a roller coaster.
I wonder how that points per wound cost compares to Imperial Knights or Warhound Titans, or in smaller scale the Leviathan Dreadnoughts.
It's pretty annoying to have to wait for all of these books to be released so we can get a complete picture
At this rate we'll just have to wait for the rest of them to leak in one or two days.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Megaknob wrote: All of that war gear is built into its profile to begin with or do you have to add every single weapon to every single model in your army ?
Man, I can not wait to have this in my hands. I got my pre-order in w/ my FLGS today and now it feels more real than ever. My friends and I have been discussing this, and we all agree that we haven't been this excited for a new edition ever.
Me too!
How many editions have you been playing?
I loved 2nd, hated 3rd, liked 4th and 5th, and 6th and 7th drove me out of 40K.
So, I'm...cautiously optimistic for 8th, as it looks like an...OK combo of 2nd and 3rd?
If that makes sense?
I'm REALLY looking forward to the new Primaris models though!
Interesting observation and question.
Of all the editions (and I’ve seen them all) before now, I think I was most hyped about 3rd. 2nd, full of details and fiddly rules, was not particularly well suited to being a war game. At the time I was playing a lot of 5th Ed WHFB, which was the height of herohammer, and 2nd 40k echoed that. 3rd, for all it’s flaws, was a simpler, easy and fun to play wargame. Not all my gaming group made the transition, so I do acknowledge that it wasn’t for everyone. Every other edition has been a one step forward, one step back affair. Some things get fixed, others broken. So for every change I look forward to, there is something bitter tainting the edition.
IMHO 7th is sort of a low point for 40k. It was rushed out after 6th, and didn’t really fix any major problems while creating a ton more. So the drastic changes, like in 3rd, are a refreshing change. I might not agree with all of them, but the game looks good so far. It might help that I’ve actually played some AoS, so the specter of being kinda like that doesn’t scare me. In fact I think 40k will suit the system better then fantasy.
Some of the fluff I’m a little twitchy on, but I’ve been ignoring bad fluff for years.
But I’ll agree that I’ve never been as excited for a release of 40k. It might help that now, as opposed to 3rd, the internet is a little more robust. I’m not going to say leaked images back then were ASCII art over 1,200 baud modems, but it was close.
Megaknob wrote: All of that war gear is built into its profile to begin with or do you have to add every single weapon to every single model in your army ?
You must add every weapons BUT many of them have 0 cost.
Megaknob wrote: All of that war gear is built into its profile to begin with or do you have to add every single weapon to every single model in your army ?
You must add every weapons BUT many of them have 0 cost.
Cephalobeard wrote: People with indexes seem to be indicating no chapter tactics are in the books. That's... Worrying.
Did you really think they were going to stay? Legions, marks, chapter tactics, etc. will ALL be gone. Maybe they will give them back to us in later books, but there was no way they were going to do that.
Based on what 40k Facebook has said, they will still exist, but it looks like we won't see them until the codexes drop. Makes me woder if they're working to rebalance them and potentially assign point costs to them.
I loved 2nd, hated 3rd, liked 4th and 5th, and 6th and 7th drove me out of 40K.
So, I'm...cautiously optimistic for 8th, as it looks like an...OK combo of 2nd and 3rd?
If that makes sense?
I'm REALLY looking forward to the new Primaris models though!
I'd be willing to say that this feels a lot like what 3rd Edition would have been if it were the evolutionary facelift to 2nd rather than something that supplanted it (like it ended up doing). A 2.75e if you will.
So yeah, I think the description makes sense. It is a revolutionary change, like 3rd, but mostly in so far as it shares more DNA with 2nd than it does with 3rd to 7th.
At times I look at what we've seen and it almost feels like something Andy Chambers would have designed. It has that streamlined but satisfyingly deep feel like Battlefleet Gothic or Epic, that always felt like his hallmarks (when allowed to design a game from the ground up that is).
theharrower wrote: Not sure if this was discussed yet, but can someone help me out here? How on earth are Khorne Berzerkers Power Level 5 compared to Death Company at Power Level 9? Not only that, Berzerkers are 1 point cheaper, have a better statline, and fight twice in assault. Um, what?
Spoiler:
Power is a calculation made based on points cost for the models plus half of their possible upgrades. Considering how procy all DC upgrades are it's not hard to see why the rating would be higher.
Grey knights looking good,
The opposite of Necrons, Better units (mostly) and a bit cheaper point wise,
Notes:
The always amazing Dreadknight lost his +1inv save power,
Purifiers lost their 2 attacks,
Castellan Crowe is now a GREAT (time to paint that finecast),
Everything is a Psyker (like before) BUT now they can ALL access the whole psy tree, not just random pre-sets,
Default Smite gets nerfed a bit on some models, other powers may be better anyway, However there are alot of area buffs to increase it, and some characters have a buffed version for CC
I loved 2nd, hated 3rd, liked 4th and 5th, and 6th and 7th drove me out of 40K.
So, I'm...cautiously optimistic for 8th, as it looks like an...OK combo of 2nd and 3rd?
If that makes sense?
I'm REALLY looking forward to the new Primaris models though!
Do you still have your truescale army? Also, did you play 3rd till the end with all the chapter approved revisions? It ended up fairly similar in basic rules to 4th and 5th.
Megaknob wrote: All of that war gear is built into its profile to begin with or do you have to add every single weapon to every single model in your army ?
Matched play requires you to add it all up. But lots of basic wargear is 0.
I think power level will catch on as a preferred way to play pickup games as it's so much simpler. I will just require wysiwyg and that prevents power game shenanigans typically. For tournaments I think matched is still the way to go.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gordy2000 wrote: Deffkoptas 55 points each plus Kopta Rokkits for 27 points, so 83 points each?
I'm liking most of the Ork staff o far, but that seems wildly overcosted
Depends on how many wounds and other rules deffkoptas get.
Gordy2000 wrote: Deffkoptas 55 points each plus Kopta Rokkits for 27 points, so 83 points each?
I'm liking most of the Ork staff o far, but that seems wildly overcosted
At first I saw the points costs of my armies were all higher and thought wow, i'm screwed, but then as the leaks came out, everyone is realizing that points increased for most units in the game. I think we're going to see the standard size game go up to about 2500 as some things are dramatically more expensive. land raiders went from 250 to 350, dreads went up over 100 points, drop pods, rhinos, razorbacks, many infantry units etc etc.
So don't let that get you twisted, I think it's the same for everyone at this point.
I loved 2nd, hated 3rd, liked 4th and 5th, and 6th and 7th drove me out of 40K.
So, I'm...cautiously optimistic for 8th, as it looks like an...OK combo of 2nd and 3rd?
If that makes sense?
I'm REALLY looking forward to the new Primaris models though!
Do you still have your truescale army? Also, did you play 3rd till the end with all the chapter approved revisions? It ended up fairly similar in basic rules to 4th and 5th.
Only a few bits and bobs.
I sold it off thinking it just would fit well/play well with others, and then GW went and did the whole Primaris thing - hilarious!
I didn't stick around for all of 3E - I bailed fairly quickly after they gutted 2E and turned it into 3E.
8E looks good but it also looks like a Bucket O' Dice Edition, and a Pick Up A Lot Of Models A Lot Of The Time edition too - so I'm a bit nervous there...
Sidstyler wrote: Yeah, but you know how it goes, Tau took the lion's share of complaints for it from what I've seen.
I think I saw complaints about it in 4th when it was apparently easier to get behind full cover. I don't think I have ever seen serious complaints about Tau JSJ in 5th to 7th. Battlesuits are still slow and determined enemy can always catch them, or shoot them through cover.
I doubt removing JSJ does anything for Tau at this point, however. The army has already become a parody of stompy Mecha monsters and what I've seen of the leaked rules, seems this trend is only reinforced. Nobody cares what small suits, infantry or vehicles do at this point anymore. Now it's all about Stormsurges dual wielding Riptides.
not sure if you were speaking metaphorically or not, but that last part is not even remotely true.
As a tau player who played them because of the cool models and their playstyle (long before riptides and stormsurges) JSJ is an incredibly integral part of the tau "style".
(don't even have a stormsurge or ghostkeel, have one riptide...).
I have 18 crisis suits and a buch of stealth guys - if they lose the JSJ this will dramatically change the enjoyment and feel of the game for tau.
Anyway - hoping the new tau are ok - I played them in 5th when not that great, so if at least they are not OP now....well, that is something I guess.
Drop pod rules have been leak and well damn they are pretty bad. Can only carry troops (no dreads, or cents :| ) and requires 9" bubble that everyone already has for 100ish points. That has really killed my love for 8th, I can't see the logic in sticking tac troops in a pod instead of taking terminators.
Megaknob wrote: All of that war gear is built into its profile to begin with or do you have to add every single weapon to every single model in your army ?
Matched play requires you to add it all up. But lots of basic wargear is 0.
I think power level will catch on as a preferred way to play pickup games as it's so much simpler. I will just require wysiwyg and that prevents power game shenanigans typically. For tournaments I think matched is still the way to go.
I really don't think so. Everyone is going to have favorite loadouts with their points memorized or written down. It really isn't much harder to remember 187 than 17.
I sold it off thinking it just would fit well/play well with others, and then GW went and did the whole Primaris thing - hilarious!
I didn't stick around for all of 3E - I bailed fairly quickly after they gutted 2E and turned it into 3E.
8E looks good but it also looks like a Bucket O' Dice Edition, and a Pick Up A Lot Of Models A Lot Of The Time edition too - so I'm a bit nervous there...
Well.. I was going to suggest the primaris guys would go well with your taller marines and vehicles (I remember you selling some vehicles but figured they were spares/extras).... The reason I asked about 3rd is that with the vehicle and trial assault rules it ended up for the last year or two very similar to 4th. As for 8th, yeah... bucket o dice with some (but granted not all) mistakes of the past mixed with greed over gaming (admittedly again not as badly as with 6th/7th) edition makes me a bit nervous as well which is a change from cautiously neutral a month ago.
Gordy2000 wrote: Deffkoptas 55 points each plus Kopta Rokkits for 27 points, so 83 points each?
I'm liking most of the Ork staff o far, but that seems wildly overcosted
At first I saw the points costs of my armies were all higher and thought wow, i'm screwed, but then as the leaks came out, everyone is realizing that points increased for most units in the game. I think we're going to see the standard size game go up to about 2500 as some things are dramatically more expensive. land raiders went from 250 to 350, dreads went up over 100 points, drop pods, rhinos, razorbacks, many infantry units etc etc.
So don't let that get you twisted, I think it's the same for everyone at this point.
Orks are almost all the same, except vehicles.
The new Kopta better be good if it's price went up to 250% of what it was. Almost nobody, not even riptides, got that big of a jump.
And if games go to 2500 regularly, I'm going to need a lot more orks.
Fingers crossed that we get some Thousand Sons leaks soon!
I'm hoping that they get the same buff to psychic as Tzeench in AoS where you match the lowest dice with the highest when casting and denying. That may make them more viable considering that the whole pool of psychic dice deal we banked on has been removed...
Hordes fill the former role, Trukk Boyz fill the latter role. Horde Boyz don't worry about Morale and have amazing damage but cross the board slower than Trukk Boyz who have a Trukk to help deny Overwatch. However, a Trukk is now worth something like 12-15 Boyz once you account for its weapons (but not other upgrades) as opposed to just 6.
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