Vanguards/rangers are now leadership 6-7 compared to 8-9 like they used to be. Along with the fact that they can't hide behind techpriests anymore that's a huge survivability nerf. Not to mention that galvanic rifles used to be AP4 which translated as AP -1 into 8th edition. But not for AdMech. Because apparently magoses are all much dumber than thechmarines and can't create a good weapon, so we only get AP -1 on 6s to wound.
Everything got a leadership nerf, they can reroll with a small upgrade and get +1 if they're near our vehicles
Galvanic rifles are still good still better than a bolt gun, the standard marine gun. And FNP was taken away from almost everything, an Invunl save is almost as good now without instant death
Destroyers are now roughly on the same power level while becoming significantly more expensive. Plasma cannon is better but grav is still generally better overall. They are also a 3-wounds model that kill themselves on plasma overcharge.
Again they have options now, can ignore cover with their phosphor and cognis flamers are still good, and if you have a tech priest near by they can reroll 1s or canticle reroll 1s.
Breachers are also more expensive while becoming much worse at killing vehicles - heavy arc rifle is awful and torsion cannon is a poor man's multimelta.
Still on the fence about these
Ruststalkers and infiltrators lost their FNP, lost their movement bonus + ruststalkers lost their AP 2 on second turn along with grenades and infiltrators lost stealth, shredding pistols and their aura is now pretty much useless. What's the point of making a unit cheaper while removing special rules if special rules was the whole point of that unit?
They took a small hit, but they're much, much cheaper. Yes Infiltrators got hit the most, but Rust stalkers, I think you're severely underestimating how powerful mortal wounds are
Ignore cover is not nearly as powerful, since it's just an addition to and armor save and the only guys that get it are vanguards and rangers which are going to die in droves now.
Its pretty powerful in this edition, i wouldnt underestimate ignore cover
Everything is going to die in droves now, thats how this edition is designed
Electropriests are still a slow moving bunch of T3 guys with a garbage save in an army with no transports, so they are still going to get mowed through by any capable shooting.
They're as fast as almost every other foot slogging assault unit without jump, they're much much cheaper and they actually have this editions version of FNP which can be taken against anything, even mortal wounds.
Duncrawlers and robots were good. They are still good. Nothing has changed
They got better and cheaper
Dragoons/Balistarri got tougher and better.
And best of all you're not locked in to what the War Con requires you to bring, so you dont have to take ruststalkers/Infiltrators if you dont want to.
flakpanzer wrote: So the text of the Woods terrain in the Advanced section of the Rulebook reads as follows:
INFANTRY units that are entirely on the base of a wood receive the benefit of cover. If your wood is not on a base, discuss with your opponent what the boundary of the wood is before the battle begins.
OTHER UNITS only receive the benefit of cover if at least 50% of every model is actually obscured from the point of view of the shooting unit.
Does that mean that if I have a unit on one side of a wood that is shooting at your INFANTRY unit completely on the opposite side of the wood, there is no penalty (as long as I can see models to shoot them)?
Personally, look at the woods - do they make it harder to see the models on the other side? if you modeled them densely, they should.
This is where you just ask the other player - "hey, I did not buy a ton of trees for this, but you wanna say it gives cover shooting across it"
NivlacSupreme wrote: I feel like the tournament guys being involved might make the game too "clinical". You know, simple, dumbed down and not following the fluff to make a new game.
EDIT: New wasn't the word I was looking for. More along the lines of a game that goes really quickly so that they can determine who wins faster and isn't very in depth.
Then don't play matched play (tournament play) where these guys have the expertise
Play narrative play which was designed for cool scenarios of defender vs attacker and doesn't have as many limits for balance.
changemod wrote: I own 11,000 points worth of Necrons but I only have 20 warriors.
Well, at least that's kind of impressive in itself. I get it though, I do my best to avoid troops at all costs.
Oh no I generally fielded a decentish number of immortals, it's just I didn't really fluff my Necron dynasty as the type of people to flood the board with lobotomised civillians.
buddha wrote: Well crap, the death guard army list has no bikers, raptors, terminators, heldrakes, mauler fiends,havoks, or chosen which I have models for. I guess just make up some random renegade chapter in the meantime?
You have no idea how angry I am right now - having spent a few hundred pounds buying a new vectorium-based death guard army, I now find my army list is pretty much invalid.
No bikes, terminators, havocs.
I have two heldrakes - luckily still shrink-wrapped.
This whole thing is an utter disaster - and it was all a plan for my 40th birthday.
I feel like geedurps just pissed in my cornflakes
Can you not just give all those mark of Nurgle though and use them? They won't get some of the bonuses, but you can still use them in the same attachment.
That'd also be pretty stupid. Since suddenly your terminators, lords and havocs aren't as tough as your plague marines...even though they are plague marines in the lore. So we're supposed to expect that after putting on a suit of better armour, rising in the ranks or picking up a better gun, the marine just suddenly became weaker?
Are people really unable to wait a couple of weeks to get a codex for this? I mean, jeeez
I'd be fine with waiting for a while. However, it is clear that a very large number of units have already bizzarely been excluded from use for the death guard. I find it very unlikely that GW will go back on this decision, as the codexes sound to be more wbout expanding on what we have been given that correcting any mistakes they have made. Also, whatever book the death guard are in will most likely be out in at most two months, so its already probably done and uncorrectable at this point. So pretty much my raptors, havocs and terminators are now completely useless to me.
Vanguards/rangers are now leadership 6-7 compared to 8-9 like they used to be. Along with the fact that they can't hide behind techpriests anymore that's a huge survivability nerf. Not to mention that galvanic rifles used to be AP4 which translated as AP -1 into 8th edition. But not for AdMech. Because apparently magoses are all much dumber than thechmarines and can't create a good weapon, so we only get AP -1 on 6s to wound.
Everything got a leadership nerf, they can reroll with a small upgrade and get +1 if they're near our vehicles
Galvanic rifles are still good still better than a bolt gun, the standard marine gun. And FNP was taken away from almost everything, an Invunl save is almost as good now without instant death
Destroyers are now roughly on the same power level while becoming significantly more expensive. Plasma cannon is better but grav is still generally better overall. They are also a 3-wounds model that kill themselves on plasma overcharge.
Again they have options now, can ignore cover with their phosphor and cognis flamers are still good, and if you have a tech priest near by they can reroll 1s or canticle reroll 1s.
Breachers are also more expensive while becoming much worse at killing vehicles - heavy arc rifle is awful and torsion cannon is a poor man's multimelta.
Still on the fence about these
Ruststalkers and infiltrators lost their FNP, lost their movement bonus + ruststalkers lost their AP 2 on second turn along with grenades and infiltrators lost stealth, shredding pistols and their aura is now pretty much useless. What's the point of making a unit cheaper while removing special rules if special rules was the whole point of that unit?
They took a small hit, but they're much, much cheaper. Yes Infiltrators got hit the most, but Rust stalkers, I think you're severely underestimating how powerful mortal wounds are
Ignore cover is not nearly as powerful, since it's just an addition to and armor save and the only guys that get it are vanguards and rangers which are going to die in droves now.
Its pretty powerful in this edition, i wouldnt underestimate ignore cover
Everything is going to die in droves now, thats how this edition is designed
Electropriests are still a slow moving bunch of T3 guys with a garbage save in an army with no transports, so they are still going to get mowed through by any capable shooting.
They're as fast as almost every other foot slogging assault unit without jump, they're much much cheaper and they actually have this editions version of FNP which can be taken against anything, even mortal wounds.
Duncrawlers and robots were good. They are still good. Nothing has changed
They got better and cheaper
Dragoons/Balistarri got tougher and better.
And best of all you're not locked in to what the War Con requires you to bring, so you dont have to take ruststalkers/Infiltrators if you dont want to.
We don't get locked into WarConvo, but for those of us with one... this kinda sucks. I like Infiltrators as they were. The nerf seems unwarranted.
All I can hope for is that the Codex brings in some new rules and maybe Relics and FoCs that make things a bit more interesting.
RegulusBlack wrote: Also no psykers, no priests, and no blobs, other than scripts.... That's kinda sad
Priests are in a separate imperial faction but can still join. No reason to have blobs anymore, I don't really see any advantage to having 50 guys in 1 unit vs 5 units of 10 guys. There is no difference in 8th.
buddha wrote: Well crap, the death guard army list has no bikers, raptors, terminators, heldrakes, mauler fiends,havoks, or chosen which I have models for. I guess just make up some random renegade chapter in the meantime?
You have no idea how angry I am right now - having spent a few hundred pounds buying a new vectorium-based death guard army, I now find my army list is pretty much invalid.
No bikes, terminators, havocs.
I have two heldrakes - luckily still shrink-wrapped.
This whole thing is an utter disaster - and it was all a plan for my 40th birthday.
I feel like geedurps just pissed in my cornflakes
Can you not just give all those mark of Nurgle though and use them? They won't get some of the bonuses, but you can still use them in the same attachment.
That'd also be pretty stupid. Since suddenly your terminators, lords and havocs aren't as tough as your plague marines...even though they are plague marines in the lore. So we're supposed to expect that after putting on a suit of better armour, rising in the ranks or picking up a better gun, the marine just suddenly became weaker?
Are people really unable to wait a couple of weeks to get a codex for this? I mean, jeeez
I'd be fine with waiting for a while. However, it is clear that a very large number of units have already bizzarely been excluded from use for the death guard. I find it very unlikely that GW will go back on this decision, as the codexes sound to be more wbout expanding on what we have been given that correcting any mistakes they have made. Also, whatever book the death guard are in will most likely be out in at most two months, so its already probably done and uncorrectable at this point. So pretty much my raptors, havocs and terminators are now completely useless to me.
OR you take 2 detachments one of deathguard and the other of nurgle CSM.
Grinshanks wrote: I know everyone got their knickers in a twist over the formation crazy last edition.
But now that everything has been leaked, this editions seems really, reeeeally bland.
Seems like everything rule has been reduced to -save and D6 damage.
Read the lists in the back of the 3rd ed. rulebook and your reaction would be similar. These are get-you-by lists until the full Codexes come out for each army. For that, they're actually much better than the 3rd ed. ones were.
These leaks look like they're coming from the real books though, not printouts or WD pages. Unless you mean the bigger books are stopgap and proper codexes as we know them now are gonna come later? that sort of ruins the whole anthology codex approach to me.
Stopgaps are exactly what the Indexes are - there's a reason why they're Indexes and not Codexes.
was it confirmed that the indexes would be incomplete, though? My impression was that the dedicated codicies would be a lot of fluff and flavor but if you only had the indexes, you would have all the crunch you needed to actually play the game?
was it confirmed that the indexes would be incomplete, though? My impression was that the dedicated codicies would be a lot of fluff and flavor but if you only had the indexes, you would have all the crunch you needed to actually play the game?
You have everything you need to actually play the game now.
RegulusBlack wrote: Also no psykers, no priests, and no blobs, other than scripts.... That's kinda sad
Priests are in a separate imperial faction but can still join. No reason to have blobs anymore, I don't really see any advantage to having 50 guys in 1 unit vs 5 units of 10 guys. There is no difference in 8th.
buddha wrote: Well crap, the death guard army list has no bikers, raptors, terminators, heldrakes, mauler fiends,havoks, or chosen which I have models for. I guess just make up some random renegade chapter in the meantime?
You have no idea how angry I am right now - having spent a few hundred pounds buying a new vectorium-based death guard army, I now find my army list is pretty much invalid.
No bikes, terminators, havocs.
I have two heldrakes - luckily still shrink-wrapped.
This whole thing is an utter disaster - and it was all a plan for my 40th birthday.
I feel like geedurps just pissed in my cornflakes
Can you not just give all those mark of Nurgle though and use them? They won't get some of the bonuses, but you can still use them in the same attachment.
That'd also be pretty stupid. Since suddenly your terminators, lords and havocs aren't as tough as your plague marines...even though they are plague marines in the lore. So we're supposed to expect that after putting on a suit of better armour, rising in the ranks or picking up a better gun, the marine just suddenly became weaker?
Are people really unable to wait a couple of weeks to get a codex for this? I mean, jeeez
I'd be fine with waiting for a while. However, it is clear that a very large number of units have already bizzarely been excluded from use for the death guard. I find it very unlikely that GW will go back on this decision, as the codexes sound to be more wbout expanding on what we have been given that correcting any mistakes they have made. Also, whatever book the death guard are in will most likely be out in at most two months, so its already probably done and uncorrectable at this point. So pretty much my raptors, havocs and terminators are now completely useless to me.
OR you take 2 detachments one of deathguard and the other of nurgle CSM.
No blob squad for guard means no ordering your 40man squad to FRFSRF. That seems like a bit of a nerf to Guard order efficiency.
The Death Guard list is likely "we won't be doing Death Guard models for some stuff going forward, so won't leave backwards compatibility built into the stopgap rules".
I'd imagine they'll be one of the first two nuCodexes, so won't be long to wait and see what's new, what's being fleshed out, and what's dropped. Until then you can still play everyone as CSM so no-one needs any YouTube bonfires, ya hear? :-)
buddha wrote: Well crap, the death guard army list has no bikers, raptors, terminators, heldrakes, mauler fiends,havoks, or chosen which I have models for. I guess just make up some random renegade chapter in the meantime?
You have no idea how angry I am right now - having spent a few hundred pounds buying a new vectorium-based death guard army, I now find my army list is pretty much invalid.
No bikes, terminators, havocs.
I have two heldrakes - luckily still shrink-wrapped.
This whole thing is an utter disaster - and it was all a plan for my 40th birthday.
I feel like geedurps just pissed in my cornflakes
Can you not just give all those mark of Nurgle though and use them? They won't get some of the bonuses, but you can still use them in the same attachment.
That'd also be pretty stupid. Since suddenly your terminators, lords and havocs aren't as tough as your plague marines...even though they are plague marines in the lore. So we're supposed to expect that after putting on a suit of better armour, rising in the ranks or picking up a better gun, the marine just suddenly became weaker?
Are people really unable to wait a couple of weeks to get a codex for this? I mean, jeeez
I'd be fine with waiting for a while. However, it is clear that a very large number of units have already bizzarely been excluded from use for the death guard. I find it very unlikely that GW will go back on this decision, as the codexes sound to be more wbout expanding on what we have been given that correcting any mistakes they have made. Also, whatever book the death guard are in will most likely be out in at most two months, so its already probably done and uncorrectable at this point. So pretty much my raptors, havocs and terminators are now completely useless to me.
You have absolutely no idea what the 8th edition codex will look like. As they are releasing terminators for them it seems a pretty good bet Terminators will be in.
Are people really unable to wait a couple of weeks to get a codex for this? I mean, jeeez
Have GW confirmed a couple of weeks for the Codex? No, they themselves have not. We've only gotten the rumours.
If the Indexes are a 'stop gap' list then why remove units that would effectively be stop-gap units until the Faction book was released? Particularly when those missing units have been staple of that faction's playerbase's armies for 4 editions now?
Imagine you're a Blood Angel player and suddenly you can't take assault squads.
'Oh, but rumours say you'll get a new Codex soon.' 'It's just a stop gap.'
Yet you've had Assault Marines as part of your army for 4 editions. All your old army fluff features assault marines. Would you really be happy that a core of your army was torn out from a stop gap list based on a rumour that has yet to be confirmed?
RegulusBlack wrote: Also no psykers, no priests, and no blobs, other than scripts.... That's kinda sad
Priests are in a separate imperial faction but can still join. No reason to have blobs anymore, I don't really see any advantage to having 50 guys in 1 unit vs 5 units of 10 guys. There is no difference in 8th.
buddha wrote: Well crap, the death guard army list has no bikers, raptors, terminators, heldrakes, mauler fiends,havoks, or chosen which I have models for. I guess just make up some random renegade chapter in the meantime?
You have no idea how angry I am right now - having spent a few hundred pounds buying a new vectorium-based death guard army, I now find my army list is pretty much invalid.
No bikes, terminators, havocs.
I have two heldrakes - luckily still shrink-wrapped.
This whole thing is an utter disaster - and it was all a plan for my 40th birthday.
I feel like geedurps just pissed in my cornflakes
Can you not just give all those mark of Nurgle though and use them? They won't get some of the bonuses, but you can still use them in the same attachment.
That'd also be pretty stupid. Since suddenly your terminators, lords and havocs aren't as tough as your plague marines...even though they are plague marines in the lore. So we're supposed to expect that after putting on a suit of better armour, rising in the ranks or picking up a better gun, the marine just suddenly became weaker?
Are people really unable to wait a couple of weeks to get a codex for this? I mean, jeeez
I'd be fine with waiting for a while. However, it is clear that a very large number of units have already bizzarely been excluded from use for the death guard. I find it very unlikely that GW will go back on this decision, as the codexes sound to be more wbout expanding on what we have been given that correcting any mistakes they have made. Also, whatever book the death guard are in will most likely be out in at most two months, so its already probably done and uncorrectable at this point. So pretty much my raptors, havocs and terminators are now completely useless to me.
OR you take 2 detachments one of deathguard and the other of nurgle CSM.
No blob squad for guard means no ordering your 40man squad to FRFSRF. That seems like a bit of a nerf to Guard order efficiency.
Slightly, you will need more commanders to get the same effect. That said a blob with FRFSRF and splitfire might be a bit broken don't you think.
Guys, look at the Big Mek for orks... looks like the unit has to be entirely within the 9" bubble for the effects, which is kinda annoying but at least it went up. BTW, anyone got the data sheet for the Blitza-Bommer as it seems to be missing.
buddha wrote: Well crap, the death guard army list has no bikers, raptors, terminators, heldrakes, mauler fiends,havoks, or chosen which I have models for. I guess just make up some random renegade chapter in the meantime?
You have no idea how angry I am right now - having spent a few hundred pounds buying a new vectorium-based death guard army, I now find my army list is pretty much invalid.
No bikes, terminators, havocs.
I have two heldrakes - luckily still shrink-wrapped.
This whole thing is an utter disaster - and it was all a plan for my 40th birthday.
I feel like geedurps just pissed in my cornflakes
Can you not just give all those mark of Nurgle though and use them? They won't get some of the bonuses, but you can still use them in the same attachment.
That'd also be pretty stupid. Since suddenly your terminators, lords and havocs aren't as tough as your plague marines...even though they are plague marines in the lore. So we're supposed to expect that after putting on a suit of better armour, rising in the ranks or picking up a better gun, the marine just suddenly became weaker?
Are people really unable to wait a couple of weeks to get a codex for this? I mean, jeeez
I'd be fine with waiting for a while. However, it is clear that a very large number of units have already bizzarely been excluded from use for the death guard. I find it very unlikely that GW will go back on this decision, as the codexes sound to be more wbout expanding on what we have been given that correcting any mistakes they have made. Also, whatever book the death guard are in will most likely be out in at most two months, so its already probably done and uncorrectable at this point. So pretty much my raptors, havocs and terminators are now completely useless to me.
You mean the Army Lists that come with the box, only have rules for units which come in the box? No way, my mind is blown.
You have a teaser of Mortarion, you've actually seen some of the new stuff, it seems like you're ignoring the obvious in order to get upset about something minor
If that's what you enjoy, more power to you, I'm just pointing out that you're likely to be far ahead of most others before they end of summer
Grinshanks wrote: I know everyone got their knickers in a twist over the formation crazy last edition.
But now that everything has been leaked, this editions seems really, reeeeally bland.
Seems like everything rule has been reduced to -save and D6 damage.
Read the lists in the back of the 3rd ed. rulebook and your reaction would be similar. These are get-you-by lists until the full Codexes come out for each army. For that, they're actually much better than the 3rd ed. ones were.
These leaks look like they're coming from the real books though, not printouts or WD pages. Unless you mean the bigger books are stopgap and proper codexes as we know them now are gonna come later? that sort of ruins the whole anthology codex approach to me.
Stopgaps are exactly what the Indexes are - there's a reason why they're Indexes and not Codexes.
was it confirmed that the indexes would be incomplete, though? My impression was that the dedicated codicies would be a lot of fluff and flavor but if you only had the indexes, you would have all the crunch you needed to actually play the game?
8th edition rule book pg 175:
"A codex is the ultimate resource for your chosen army (or armies!), containing datasheets for the miniautres that are part of a particular Faction. But that's not all - in codexes you'll also find army-specific specail rules that reflect the character of the army and exciting Warlord Traits, Stratagems, wargear, and even unique relics"
buddha wrote: Well crap, the death guard army list has no bikers, raptors, terminators, heldrakes, mauler fiends,havoks, or chosen which I have models for. I guess just make up some random renegade chapter in the meantime?
You have no idea how angry I am right now - having spent a few hundred pounds buying a new vectorium-based death guard army, I now find my army list is pretty much invalid.
No bikes, terminators, havocs.
I have two heldrakes - luckily still shrink-wrapped.
This whole thing is an utter disaster - and it was all a plan for my 40th birthday.
I feel like geedurps just pissed in my cornflakes
Can you not just give all those mark of Nurgle though and use them? They won't get some of the bonuses, but you can still use them in the same attachment.
That'd also be pretty stupid. Since suddenly your terminators, lords and havocs aren't as tough as your plague marines...even though they are plague marines in the lore. So we're supposed to expect that after putting on a suit of better armour, rising in the ranks or picking up a better gun, the marine just suddenly became weaker?
Are people really unable to wait a couple of weeks to get a codex for this? I mean, jeeez
I'd be fine with waiting for a while. However, it is clear that a very large number of units have already bizzarely been excluded from use for the death guard. I find it very unlikely that GW will go back on this decision, as the codexes sound to be more wbout expanding on what we have been given that correcting any mistakes they have made. Also, whatever book the death guard are in will most likely be out in at most two months, so its already probably done and uncorrectable at this point. So pretty much my raptors, havocs and terminators are now completely useless to me.
You mean the Army Lists that come with the box, only have rules for units which come in the box? No way, my mind is blown.
I'm talking about the unit restrictions that are on the actual death guard page in the chaos index. Nice attempt at being a smartass though.
Are people really unable to wait a couple of weeks to get a codex for this? I mean, jeeez
Have GW confirmed a couple of weeks for the Codex? No, they themselves have not. We've only gotten the rumours.
If the Indexes are a 'stop gap' list then why remove units that would effectively be stop-gap units until the Faction book was released? Particularly when those missing units have been staple of that faction's playerbase's armies for 4 editions now?
Imagine you're a Blood Angel player and suddenly you can't take assault squads.
'Oh, but rumours say you'll get a new Codex soon.' 'It's just a stop gap.'
Yet you've had Assault Marines as part of your army for 4 editions. All your old army fluff features assault marines. Would you really be happy that a core of your army was torn out from a stop gap list based on a rumour that has yet to be confirmed?
Back in 3rd/4th, death guard used to get almost only plague marines, no bikes, no raptors, etc. After that there were no death guard for a long while and the legion codex finally came like last year. I guess it didn't have plague marine bikers either?
Vorian wrote: You have a teaser of Mortarion, you've actually seen some of the new stuff, it seems like you're ignoring the obvious in order to get upset about something minor
If that's what you enjoy, more power to you, I'm just pointing out that you're likely to be far ahead of most others before they end of summer
We saw the Death Guard images, including the teaser of Mortarion months ago. Iirc we're hitting the 3 month mark now.
I really have to say I love how people are just so reluctant to actually stand up and go 'hang on, that's a bit messed up.' We're just that complacent to sit there and get a bum deal. Really now?
Are people really unable to wait a couple of weeks to get a codex for this? I mean, jeeez
Have GW confirmed a couple of weeks for the Codex? No, they themselves have not. We've only gotten the rumours.
If the Indexes are a 'stop gap' list then why remove units that would effectively be stop-gap units until the Faction book was released? Particularly when those missing units have been staple of that faction's playerbase's armies for 4 editions now?
Imagine you're a Blood Angel player and suddenly you can't take assault squads.
'Oh, but rumours say you'll get a new Codex soon.' 'It's just a stop gap.'
Yet you've had Assault Marines as part of your army for 4 editions. All your old army fluff features assault marines. Would you really be happy that a core of your army was torn out from a stop gap list based on a rumour that has yet to be confirmed?
Back in 3rd/4th, death guard used to get almost only plague marines, no bikes, no raptors, etc. After that there were no death guard for a long while and the legion codex finally came like last year. I guess it didn't have plague marine bikers either?
Would you like me to fish out the original Index Astartes list from 3rd edition? Where we had Cult Terminators, Plague Marines, Havocs (that took special weapons), Veterans (now called Chosen) and our restriction was the amount of transports we took? Or are you trying to imply that I'm upset about bikes - which I personally never used and were only a thing for a grand total of 6 months with Traitor Legions.
Read up. My concerns are the fact that Terminators, Chosen and Havocs have completely disappeared from our options. Even more laughable is the fact that Sorcerers with Palanquins are ALSO not available to Death Guard.
Vorian wrote: You have a teaser of Mortarion, you've actually seen some of the new stuff, it seems like you're ignoring the obvious in order to get upset about something minor
If that's what you enjoy, more power to you, I'm just pointing out that you're likely to be far ahead of most others before they end of summer
We saw the Death Guard images, including the teaser of Mortarion months ago. Iirc we're hitting the 3 month mark now.
I really have to say I love how people are just so reluctant to actually stand up and go 'hang on, that's a bit messed up.' We're just that complacent to sit there and get a bum deal. Really now?
But it's not messed up at all. You're trying to make a big deal about nothing.
As has been said, run them as generic and then your full codex will be a... full codex.
Grinshanks wrote: I know everyone got their knickers in a twist over the formation crazy last edition.
But now that everything has been leaked, this editions seems really, reeeeally bland.
Seems like everything rule has been reduced to -save and D6 damage.
Nothing we shouldn't be expecting already, to be honest. This would be the simplest way to achieve the desired streamlining and keeping tabs on balance.
My only true pet peeve with this edition is the removal of wound allocation to the nearest model in the shooting phase.
Removing models from the front plus Overwatch (not to mention Tau uber-Overwatch) fethed assault armies so hard over the past two editions. Good riddance to that gakky mechanic.
Vorian wrote: You have a teaser of Mortarion, you've actually seen some of the new stuff, it seems like you're ignoring the obvious in order to get upset about something minor
If that's what you enjoy, more power to you, I'm just pointing out that you're likely to be far ahead of most others before they end of summer
We saw the Death Guard images, including the teaser of Mortarion months ago. Iirc we're hitting the 3 month mark now.
I really have to say I love how people are just so reluctant to actually stand up and go 'hang on, that's a bit messed up.' We're just that complacent to sit there and get a bum deal. Really now?
Are people really unable to wait a couple of weeks to get a codex for this? I mean, jeeez
Have GW confirmed a couple of weeks for the Codex? No, they themselves have not. We've only gotten the rumours.
If the Indexes are a 'stop gap' list then why remove units that would effectively be stop-gap units until the Faction book was released? Particularly when those missing units have been staple of that faction's playerbase's armies for 4 editions now?
Imagine you're a Blood Angel player and suddenly you can't take assault squads.
'Oh, but rumours say you'll get a new Codex soon.' 'It's just a stop gap.'
Yet you've had Assault Marines as part of your army for 4 editions. All your old army fluff features assault marines. Would you really be happy that a core of your army was torn out from a stop gap list based on a rumour that has yet to be confirmed?
Back in 3rd/4th, death guard used to get almost only plague marines, no bikes, no raptors, etc. After that there were no death guard for a long while and the legion codex finally came like last year. I guess it didn't have plague marine bikers either?
Would you like me to fish out the original Index Astartes list from 3rd edition? Where we had Cult Terminators, Plague Marines, Havocs (that took special weapons), Veterans (now called Chosen) and our restriction was the amount of transports we took? Or are you trying to imply that I'm upset about bikes - which I personally never used and were only a thing for a grand total of 6 months with Traitor Legions.
Read up. My concerns are the fact that Terminators, Chosen and Havocs have completely disappeared from our options. Even more laughable is the fact that Sorcerers with Palanquins are ALSO not available to Death Guard.
Think we should be careful for the casual poster reading the forum
they have not completely disappeared as an option... they are just not T5 etc
Vorian wrote: You have a teaser of Mortarion, you've actually seen some of the new stuff, it seems like you're ignoring the obvious in order to get upset about something minor
If that's what you enjoy, more power to you, I'm just pointing out that you're likely to be far ahead of most others before they end of summer
We saw the Death Guard images, including the teaser of Mortarion months ago. Iirc we're hitting the 3 month mark now.
I really have to say I love how people are just so reluctant to actually stand up and go 'hang on, that's a bit messed up.' We're just that complacent to sit there and get a bum deal. Really now?
But it's not messed up at all. You're trying to make a big deal about nothing.
As has been said, run them as generic and then your full codex will be a... full codex.
What I ,and I assume Darkstarsabre (sorry if I'm assuming your problems incorrectly), are worried about, is the bizzare omission of a number of units on the death guard page of the index. If it was just that I had to bide my time to wait for rules, than I'd be happy. However havocs, chosen, terminators, raptors and a number of other units are straight up unusable for Death Guard, for seemingly no reason.
If that's true it kind of puts a damper on my plan to start up CSM's. May have to run a different legion instead, as I really like Havocs, Raptors, and Termies
Are people really unable to wait a couple of weeks to get a codex for this? I mean, jeeez
Have GW confirmed a couple of weeks for the Codex? No, they themselves have not. We've only gotten the rumours.
If the Indexes are a 'stop gap' list then why remove units that would effectively be stop-gap units until the Faction book was released? Particularly when those missing units have been staple of that faction's playerbase's armies for 4 editions now?
Imagine you're a Blood Angel player and suddenly you can't take assault squads.
'Oh, but rumours say you'll get a new Codex soon.' 'It's just a stop gap.'
Yet you've had Assault Marines as part of your army for 4 editions. All your old army fluff features assault marines. Would you really be happy that a core of your army was torn out from a stop gap list based on a rumour that has yet to be confirmed?
Back in 3rd/4th, death guard used to get almost only plague marines, no bikes, no raptors, etc. After that there were no death guard for a long while and the legion codex finally came like last year. I guess it didn't have plague marine bikers either?
As promised - here's your education from 3rd edition onwards.
First up we have Index Astartes Death Guard. Note the artwork. Note the army list. This was a list to be used with the 3rd ed skinny Chaos Codex.
Spoiler:
Then we have the 3.5 Codex that served us faithfully til the 4th ed Codex came around. Note the Death Guard rules and the table of what could and could not have the Mark of Nurgle. With the late 4th ed book we gained some Mark options (but a strange icon system) and, well, we're familiar with 6th and 7th edition. To state 'there was no Death Guard armies' would be a fallacy. Just because we didn't get Chapter Tactics spoonfed to us doesn't mean we ceased to exist. People picked Nurgle themed armies still and many would still have considered themselves Death Guard players.
frankr wrote:
8th edition rule book pg 175:
"A codex is the ultimate resource for your chosen army (or armies!), containing datasheets for the miniautres that are part of a particular Faction. But that's not all - in codexes you'll also find army-specific specail rules that reflect the character of the army and exciting Warlord Traits, Stratagems, wargear, and even unique relics"
Sounds like a lot more than flavor text.
Sounds exactly like the last three battle tomes for Age of Sigmar. Which is a very good thing.
Crimson Hunters seem pretty good, relative to other options. 180ish points for 4 anti-tank shots on T6 W12 with Hard to Hit. They have a minimum movement but can pivot after moving, so it's not too bad. They're always shooting at -1 but they have BS 2+. I'm not sure how Eldar infantry are likely to fare (it seems that Guardian Defender weapons platforms shoot at -1 if they move, even), but Serpents and Hunters look solid.
Ynnari seems like the way to go. Craftworld Eldar get Battle Focus, which basically only lets you advance and shoot. You can take literally every Craftworld unit other than the Avatar as a Ynnari unit instead, and the ones with Battle Focus exchange it for Strength from Death.
I'm not sure this is intended, but it also looks like the Ynnari psychic power Word of the Phoenix lets /any/ Ynnari unit do a Soulburst action, not just those that have the Strength from Death ability. Which means a Ynnari psyker (granted, this is limited to Yvraine and the Yncarne) can give almost any Craftworld or Dark Eldar unit, including stuff like the Wraithknight, a bonus Shooting phase or a bonus move before charging.
Vorian wrote: You have a teaser of Mortarion, you've actually seen some of the new stuff, it seems like you're ignoring the obvious in order to get upset about something minor
If that's what you enjoy, more power to you, I'm just pointing out that you're likely to be far ahead of most others before they end of summer
We saw the Death Guard images, including the teaser of Mortarion months ago. Iirc we're hitting the 3 month mark now.
I really have to say I love how people are just so reluctant to actually stand up and go 'hang on, that's a bit messed up.' We're just that complacent to sit there and get a bum deal. Really now?
But it's not messed up at all. You're trying to make a big deal about nothing.
As has been said, run them as generic and then your full codex will be a... full codex.
What I ,and I assume Darkstarsabre (sorry if I'm assuming your problems incorrectly), are worried about, is the bizzare omission of a number of units on the death guard page of the index. If it was just that I had to bide my time to wait for rules, than I'd be happy. However havocs, chosen, terminators, raptors and a number of other units are straight up unusable for Death Guard, for seemingly no reason.
Except you can because they are there as generic Chaos which are the same army
Vorian wrote: You have a teaser of Mortarion, you've actually seen some of the new stuff, it seems like you're ignoring the obvious in order to get upset about something minor
If that's what you enjoy, more power to you, I'm just pointing out that you're likely to be far ahead of most others before they end of summer
We saw the Death Guard images, including the teaser of Mortarion months ago. Iirc we're hitting the 3 month mark now.
I really have to say I love how people are just so reluctant to actually stand up and go 'hang on, that's a bit messed up.' We're just that complacent to sit there and get a bum deal. Really now?
But it's not messed up at all. You're trying to make a big deal about nothing.
As has been said, run them as generic and then your full codex will be a... full codex.
What I ,and I assume Darkstarsabre (sorry if I'm assuming your problems incorrectly), are worried about, is the bizzare omission of a number of units on the death guard page of the index. If it was just that I had to bide my time to wait for rules, than I'd be happy. However havocs, chosen, terminators, raptors and a number of other units are straight up unusable for Death Guard, for seemingly no reason.
Spot on. They're completely omitted. And it's worrying because - if it's a stop gap list - why remove them? Why tactically cripple us for 1-2 weeks or so if not longer? It's worrying because what if we get shafted.
Oh, GW released new Death Guard Terminators. They can only be armed with X and Y. Everyone with existing Terminators from the past 4 editions gets shown the door if they're armed differently.
And new Havocs! Oh yeah! Only armed with X and Y. Armed differently? Too bad!
I don't like the thought of being pigeonholed into being forced to buy a new kit for an army I've played for YEARS virtually unchanged. Like the example I gave - imagine Blood Angels suddenly losing Assault Squads. Or more extreme, Ultramarines can no longer take Tactical Squads. You instead get GUILITACS armed with X and Y. All your Tactical Marines are now invalid! HaHAA!
I don't like the thought of being pigeonholed into being forced to buy a new kit for an army I've played for YEARS virtually unchanged. Like the example I gave - imagine Blood Angels suddenly losing Assault Squads. Or more extreme, Ultramarines can no longer take Tactical Squads. You instead get GUILITACS armed with X and Y. All your Tactical Marines are now invalid! HaHAA!
dude are you even reading replies to your posts you can take them they are just not marked
what you are saying is, i can't have havocs with T5 and fnp so therefore i can't have havocs... Not the same
its like salamanders players not having epic flamers now as there are no chapter tactics... you can still user flamers... its not like GW said oh no... salamanders cant use flamers anymore
Vorian wrote: You have a teaser of Mortarion, you've actually seen some of the new stuff, it seems like you're ignoring the obvious in order to get upset about something minor
If that's what you enjoy, more power to you, I'm just pointing out that you're likely to be far ahead of most others before they end of summer
We saw the Death Guard images, including the teaser of Mortarion months ago. Iirc we're hitting the 3 month mark now.
I really have to say I love how people are just so reluctant to actually stand up and go 'hang on, that's a bit messed up.' We're just that complacent to sit there and get a bum deal. Really now?
But it's not messed up at all. You're trying to make a big deal about nothing.
As has been said, run them as generic and then your full codex will be a... full codex.
What I ,and I assume Darkstarsabre (sorry if I'm assuming your problems incorrectly), are worried about, is the bizzare omission of a number of units on the death guard page of the index. If it was just that I had to bide my time to wait for rules, than I'd be happy. However havocs, chosen, terminators, raptors and a number of other units are straight up unusable for Death Guard, for seemingly no reason.
Spot on. They're completely omitted. And it's worrying because - if it's a stop gap list - why remove them? Why tactically cripple us for 1-2 weeks or so if not longer? It's worrying because what if we get shafted.
Oh, GW released new Death Guard Terminators. They can only be armed with X and Y. Everyone with existing Terminators from the past 4 editions gets shown the door if they're armed differently.
And new Havocs! Oh yeah! Only armed with X and Y. Armed differently? Too bad!
I don't like the thought of being pigeonholed into being forced to buy a new kit for an army I've played for YEARS virtually unchanged. Like the example I gave - imagine Blood Angels suddenly losing Assault Squads. Or more extreme, Ultramarines can no longer take Tactical Squads. You instead get GUILITACS armed with X and Y. All your Tactical Marines are now invalid! HaHAA!
See how concerning that is?
Not that concerning when you can still legally play them in your army, they just don't have the deathguard keyword, so won't benefit from any deathguard buffs.
As for your examples they don't really fit it would be more akin to Blood angels losing, terminators, bikes and devestators. These are not the iconic units of said army, but have always been around as generic units in the army.
Vorian wrote: You have a teaser of Mortarion, you've actually seen some of the new stuff, it seems like you're ignoring the obvious in order to get upset about something minor
If that's what you enjoy, more power to you, I'm just pointing out that you're likely to be far ahead of most others before they end of summer
We saw the Death Guard images, including the teaser of Mortarion months ago. Iirc we're hitting the 3 month mark now.
I really have to say I love how people are just so reluctant to actually stand up and go 'hang on, that's a bit messed up.' We're just that complacent to sit there and get a bum deal. Really now?
But it's not messed up at all. You're trying to make a big deal about nothing.
As has been said, run them as generic and then your full codex will be a... full codex.
What I ,and I assume Darkstarsabre (sorry if I'm assuming your problems incorrectly), are worried about, is the bizzare omission of a number of units on the death guard page of the index. If it was just that I had to bide my time to wait for rules, than I'd be happy. However havocs, chosen, terminators, raptors and a number of other units are straight up unusable for Death Guard, for seemingly no reason.
Except you can because they are there as generic Chaos which are the same army
Jesus Christ. That. Is. Not. My. Problem. Are they TECHNICALLY as generic as everyone else now? Yes. However can you not even admit it is slightly strange that such a wide range of units are out of the blue omitted from death guard's use altogether, while the other legions (outside of thousands sons) can use them fine? My fear is that this will not change when the new codex comes out, leaving me with half my army being practically unusable. What do you suppose I do then?
Yeah, they're totally going to make Death guard generic and unusable, when they're releasing new models, a primarch, and using them as a figurehead. Definitely no support for those guys. Won't happen.
dude are you even reading replies to your posts you can take them they are just not marked
what you are saying is, i can't have havocs with T5 and fnp so therefore i can't have havocs... Not the same
Wrong.
Read the Death Guard rules - realise that several of the characters apply buffs to Legion key word 'Death Guard'. Same with some of the powers. It's concerning that for a stopgap measure these units disappear completely - rarely does that indicate they are coming back in with a faction book. Quite the opposite. I don't give a hoot about T5 and FNP in that respect. I instead have greater concern for things like Terminators disappearing and the very real concern we might get Scarab Occult'd - oh, not got Armament X? Too bad. Which as others have mentioned is a bit of a dick move.
But then, you opened up with 'dude' so...don't know what I expected.
It stops xenos combos, but imperial and chaos?
fF they really wanted to limit combos, they should limit to having the same faction keywords. So no SM and IG playing together in matched play
You mean like how Guard characters can basically only affect Guard characters or how Marine characters affect Marine characters?
Man, if only they had thought of that...
Oh wait!
This here is the crux of it - having different factions play together wasn't in and of itself the problem, it was that combinations of those units from different armies created effects that were greater than the sum of their parts.
So the change is that, while you can still field armies with mixed Imperial allies, you won't be seeing things like Azrael buffing a huge unit of conscripts anymore.
BUT...
In a 2000 point limit game, you can effectively play a solid 1000 point Space Marines army standing next to a solid 1000 point Guard army. With Xenos, you don't have that option. I can't field 1000 points of Necrons next to 1000 points of Tau. It's all or nothing. 2000 Necrons or 2000 Tau.
Feels very much like a slap in the face after pushing cross faction armies so hard.
I guess if your whole point in playing was to cheese it out? Or have stupid formations? (same thing really...) It was a vector for them to sell more. "Take whatever and play!" Seems great, but makes the game broken and terrible.
Again, that is why there is Open play, and Narrative play. Take what you want still. Anyone complaining that they cant take their OP combo of races for matched play clearly doesn't care about balance or the future of the game.
your 700 points of necrons need 300 points more and there, you can play a 1k game.
Don't assume you know where I'm coming from. I'm a casual gamer who prefers competitive games to narrative games. I play 40k and not DnD for a reason. I like for there to be a winner, but I don't necessarily enjoy cutthroat, win at all costs play.
I had no cheese ...no formations ...no OP combos. Think more along the lines of a Combined Arms Detachment of Space Marines composed mainly of Scouts with small Allied Detachments of Necrons and Tau with an Inquisitorial Detachment thrown in for good measure. Was it fluffy? Yes, if you consider the Scouts to be Gue'vesa, the Necrons to be controlled by the Tau (they had some good conversions) and the Inquisitor being an undercover Ordo Xenos guy trying to learn how the Tau are controlling the 'Crons. Was it OP? Oh, feth no. It was terrible. It's also now illegal for matched play using a similar army size.
We both know that 1k won't be the standard. It'll be closer to 2k. While I might be wrong, I just don't seem the community at large halving the size of a 'standard army'. So, my Necrons, practically speaking, need 1300 more points of models before I can use them in a 'standard game'. My Tau need about 1000. My Space Marines need about 1000. My Inquisitor can hang out with the Space Marines, I guess.
Vorian wrote: You have a teaser of Mortarion, you've actually seen some of the new stuff, it seems like you're ignoring the obvious in order to get upset about something minor
If that's what you enjoy, more power to you, I'm just pointing out that you're likely to be far ahead of most others before they end of summer
We saw the Death Guard images, including the teaser of Mortarion months ago. Iirc we're hitting the 3 month mark now.
I really have to say I love how people are just so reluctant to actually stand up and go 'hang on, that's a bit messed up.' We're just that complacent to sit there and get a bum deal. Really now?
But it's not messed up at all. You're trying to make a big deal about nothing.
As has been said, run them as generic and then your full codex will be a... full codex.
What I ,and I assume Darkstarsabre (sorry if I'm assuming your problems incorrectly), are worried about, is the bizzare omission of a number of units on the death guard page of the index. If it was just that I had to bide my time to wait for rules, than I'd be happy. However havocs, chosen, terminators, raptors and a number of other units are straight up unusable for Death Guard, for seemingly no reason.
Except you can because they are there as generic Chaos which are the same army
Jesus Christ. That. Is. Not. My. Problem. Are they TECHNICALLY as generic as everyone else now? Yes. However can you not even admit it is slightly strange that such a wide range of units are out of the blue omitted from death guard's use altogether, while the other legions (outside of thousands sons) can use them fine? My fear is that this will not change when the new codex comes out, leaving me with half my army being practically unusable. What do you suppose I do then?
Have I missed a death guard havoc squad, terminator squad, raptor squad, bike squad etc existing all this time??
frankr wrote:
8th edition rule book pg 175:
"A codex is the ultimate resource for your chosen army (or armies!), containing datasheets for the miniautres that are part of a particular Faction. But that's not all - in codexes you'll also find army-specific specail rules that reflect the character of the army and exciting Warlord Traits, Stratagems, wargear, and even unique relics"
Sounds like a lot more than flavor text.
Sounds exactly like the last three battle tomes for Age of Sigmar. Which is a very good thing.
It's a very good thing for the factions that actually get one. For the factions that don't? It's cripplingly terrible. How long do you think it's going to take GW to put out a codex for every army? Years? Realistically speaking, will every faction get an 8th edition codex before 9th edition comes out? I'm not sure they will.
I'm holding off on buying ANYTHING related to 8th edition until I see what kind of power divide the new codexes create. With Age of Sigmar, there are a ton of sub-factions. Generally speaking, the ones that have new style Battletomes are much stronger than the ones that don't.
its like salamanders players not having epic flamers now as there are no chapter tactics... you can still user flamers... its not like GW said oh no... salamanders cant use flamers anymore
Hahahaha.
No. Losing Terminators, Havocs and Chosen as actual choices in a specific Legion does not equate to losing buffed flamers.
Imagine your Salamanders instead lost Terminators, Devastators and Veterans. And all you were being told is 'It's still fine, you can use them, they're just not Salamanders.'
Meaning that, gods forbid, for whatever perk taking an All Legion X army has you have to lose it to take those. You can take them, but they won't benefit from the buffs of other characters around them or some of the psychic powers. You can take them, but they're now essentially a tax on force org slots that don't benefit you.
Losing improved flamers does not equate to losing units that have been part of your army for close to 2 decades.
its like salamanders players not having epic flamers now as there are no chapter tactics... you can still user flamers... its not like GW said oh no... salamanders cant use flamers anymore
Hahahaha.
No. Losing Terminators, Havocs and Chosen as actual choices in a specific Legion does not equate to losing buffed flamers.
Imagine your Salamanders instead lost Terminators, Devastators and Veterans. And all you were being told is 'It's still fine, you can use them, they're just not Salamanders.'
Meaning that, gods forbid, for whatever perk taking an All Legion X army has you have to lose it to take those. You can take them, but they won't benefit from the buffs of other characters around them or some of the psychic powers. You can take them, but they're now essentially a tax on force org slots that don't benefit you.
Losing improved flamers does not equate to losing units that have been part of your army for close to 2 decades.
Except you haven't lost any of those things - they are all there with the <LEGION> keyword
Vorian wrote: You have a teaser of Mortarion, you've actually seen some of the new stuff, it seems like you're ignoring the obvious in order to get upset about something minor
If that's what you enjoy, more power to you, I'm just pointing out that you're likely to be far ahead of most others before they end of summer
We saw the Death Guard images, including the teaser of Mortarion months ago. Iirc we're hitting the 3 month mark now.
I really have to say I love how people are just so reluctant to actually stand up and go 'hang on, that's a bit messed up.' We're just that complacent to sit there and get a bum deal. Really now?
But it's not messed up at all. You're trying to make a big deal about nothing.
As has been said, run them as generic and then your full codex will be a... full codex.
What I ,and I assume Darkstarsabre (sorry if I'm assuming your problems incorrectly), are worried about, is the bizzare omission of a number of units on the death guard page of the index. If it was just that I had to bide my time to wait for rules, than I'd be happy. However havocs, chosen, terminators, raptors and a number of other units are straight up unusable for Death Guard, for seemingly no reason.
Except you can because they are there as generic Chaos which are the same army
Jesus Christ. That. Is. Not. My. Problem. Are they TECHNICALLY as generic as everyone else now? Yes. However can you not even admit it is slightly strange that such a wide range of units are out of the blue omitted from death guard's use altogether, while the other legions (outside of thousands sons) can use them fine? My fear is that this will not change when the new codex comes out, leaving me with half my army being practically unusable. What do you suppose I do then?
Have I missed a death guard havoc squad, terminator squad, raptor squad, bike squad etc existing all this time??
Now ask Chaos players - we hated the 4th ed Codex and 6th ed Codex for the longest times because they turned several very themed armies - particularly the Cult armies - into generic bland crap. A CSM Havoc with the Mark of Nurgle =/= a Plague Havoc. Traitor Legions was a godsend because it brought back the Plague units, the Berserker units, the Rubric units. We got our flavour back and it was good.
This has just taken a huge step backwards and even worse, we've lost unit choices.
They also dont have regular marines either. However you can include them by giving them the nurgle key word. Still make the same army. Its just that the buffs dont stack.
its like salamanders players not having epic flamers now as there are no chapter tactics... you can still user flamers... its not like GW said oh no... salamanders cant use flamers anymore
Hahahaha.
No. Losing Terminators, Havocs and Chosen as actual choices in a specific Legion does not equate to losing buffed flamers.
Imagine your Salamanders instead lost Terminators, Devastators and Veterans. And all you were being told is 'It's still fine, you can use them, they're just not Salamanders.'
Meaning that, gods forbid, for whatever perk taking an All Legion X army has you have to lose it to take those. You can take them, but they won't benefit from the buffs of other characters around them or some of the psychic powers. You can take them, but they're now essentially a tax on force org slots that don't benefit you.
Losing improved flamers does not equate to losing units that have been part of your army for close to 2 decades.
Except you haven't lost any of those things - they are all there with the <LEGION> keyword
Actually, if you look at the Death Guard Army page, it forbids most of those units from selecting Death Guard. He has a valid complaint.
its like salamanders players not having epic flamers now as there are no chapter tactics... you can still user flamers... its not like GW said oh no... salamanders cant use flamers anymore
Hahahaha.
No. Losing Terminators, Havocs and Chosen as actual choices in a specific Legion does not equate to losing buffed flamers.
Imagine your Salamanders instead lost Terminators, Devastators and Veterans. And all you were being told is 'It's still fine, you can use them, they're just not Salamanders.'
Meaning that, gods forbid, for whatever perk taking an All Legion X army has you have to lose it to take those. You can take them, but they won't benefit from the buffs of other characters around them or some of the psychic powers. You can take them, but they're now essentially a tax on force org slots that don't benefit you.
Losing improved flamers does not equate to losing units that have been part of your army for close to 2 decades.
Except you haven't lost any of those things - they are all there with the <LEGION> keyword
It lists what units can have Death Guard as their Legion key word. Notice that Chosen, Chaos Terminators and Havocs are not there. Nor are Warpsmiths, Obliterators, Mutilators, Forgefiends, Maulerfiends, Raptors, Bikes, Heldrakes.....
its like salamanders players not having epic flamers now as there are no chapter tactics... you can still user flamers... its not like GW said oh no... salamanders cant use flamers anymore
Hahahaha.
No. Losing Terminators, Havocs and Chosen as actual choices in a specific Legion does not equate to losing buffed flamers.
Imagine your Salamanders instead lost Terminators, Devastators and Veterans. And all you were being told is 'It's still fine, you can use them, they're just not Salamanders.'
Meaning that, gods forbid, for whatever perk taking an All Legion X army has you have to lose it to take those. You can take them, but they won't benefit from the buffs of other characters around them or some of the psychic powers. You can take them, but they're now essentially a tax on force org slots that don't benefit you.
Losing improved flamers does not equate to losing units that have been part of your army for close to 2 decades.
Except you haven't lost any of those things - they are all there with the <LEGION> keyword
It lists what units can have Death Guard as their Legion key word. Notice that Chosen, Chaos Terminators and Havocs are not there. Nor are Warpsmiths, Obliterators, Mutilators, Forgefiends, Maulerfiends, Raptors, Bikes, Heldrakes.....
I'm a massive DG player... you are seeing this as a sign of oh in the new codex they will be gone.
I can just as easily say the units they picked in the index are units that can be represented with the boxed set or are not going to change in the new dex and everything else e.g. termintors and havocs are getting a new unit title with new options etc etc etc and they don't want to confuse people.
by your locig when they release a DG faction book it will have what nothing new in it? it'll just be those index units? whats the point of ever releasing one if that is the case
lolman1c wrote: Guys, look at the Big Mek for orks... looks like the unit has to be entirely within the 9" bubble for the effects, which is kinda annoying but at least it went up. BTW, anyone got the data sheet for the Blitza-Bommer as it seems to be missing.
I wouldn't worry about it. The Plasma Pistol (and Combi-Plasma) might be the two most efficient character killers in the game, capable of annihilating an unwounded character with a single roll of a 1.
That would be valid arqument IF imperial plasma needed to overcharge to be better...It doesn't. Imperial plasma overcharges only when it's good for them. What does that say for opponent? Yes it's bad for them then when they get overcharged weapon pointed. Regardless of did plasma blow or not it's bad for opponent as odds were in imperials favour.
Because as every Dragonball Z fan knows: Power levels are bull gak!
dude are you even reading replies to your posts you can take them they are just not marked
what you are saying is, i can't have havocs with T5 and fnp so therefore i can't have havocs... Not the same
Wrong.
Read the Death Guard rules - realise that several of the characters apply buffs to Legion key word 'Death Guard'. Same with some of the powers. It's concerning that for a stopgap measure these units disappear completely - rarely does that indicate they are coming back in with a faction book. Quite the opposite. I don't give a hoot about T5 and FNP in that respect. I instead have greater concern for things like Terminators disappearing and the very real concern we might get Scarab Occult'd - oh, not got Armament X? Too bad. Which as others have mentioned is a bit of a dick move.
But then, you opened up with 'dude' so...don't know what I expected.
So are you saying that as a Death Guard Player you want to be basically Chaos Space Marines+++, no? You gain some buffs and you lose flexibility. If you want all the flexibility of mixing Deathguard with CSM, you army has worse sinergyes.
Wheres the problem here?
My Dark Angels can't have everything Normal Space Marines have. They gain other units, other sinergies, and other rules... thats how you make Subfactions different.
its like salamanders players not having epic flamers now as there are no chapter tactics... you can still user flamers... its not like GW said oh no... salamanders cant use flamers anymore
Hahahaha.
No. Losing Terminators, Havocs and Chosen as actual choices in a specific Legion does not equate to losing buffed flamers.
Imagine your Salamanders instead lost Terminators, Devastators and Veterans. And all you were being told is 'It's still fine, you can use them, they're just not Salamanders.'
Meaning that, gods forbid, for whatever perk taking an All Legion X army has you have to lose it to take those. You can take them, but they won't benefit from the buffs of other characters around them or some of the psychic powers. You can take them, but they're now essentially a tax on force org slots that don't benefit you.
Losing improved flamers does not equate to losing units that have been part of your army for close to 2 decades.
Except you haven't lost any of those things - they are all there with the <LEGION> keyword
Actually, if you look at the Death Guard Army page, it forbids most of those units from selecting Death Guard. He has a valid complaint.
Ahh, I see ... that does seem rather perplexing. What a strange decision.
They'll obviously get the terminators back as a specifically named unit, but why stop them getting key worded generic units?
ITT: people not understanding you can have your Havocs in your army, they just can't be Death Guard units and so do not benefit from anything related to the Keyword Death Guard. Makeup a new legion called Guard Death, pay for a Lord of Guard Death legion and look now your Havocs can reroll 1's. Wow that sure was complicated to figure out how to have my cake and eat it too.
Kriswall wrote: Don't assume you know where I'm coming from. I'm a casual gamer who prefers competitive games to narrative games. I play 40k and not DnD for a reason. I like for there to be a winner, but I don't necessarily enjoy cutthroat, win at all costs play.
I had no cheese ...no formations ...no OP combos. Think more along the lines of a Combined Arms Detachment of Space Marines composed mainly of Scouts with small Allied Detachments of Necrons and Tau with an Inquisitorial Detachment thrown in for good measure. Was it fluffy? Yes, if you consider the Scouts to be Gue'vesa, the Necrons to be controlled by the Tau (they had some good conversions) and the Inquisitor being an undercover Ordo Xenos guy trying to learn how the Tau are controlling the 'Crons. Was it OP? Oh, feth no. It was terrible. It's also now illegal for matched play using a similar army size.
We both know that 1k won't be the standard. It'll be closer to 2k. While I might be wrong, I just don't seem the community at large halving the size of a 'standard army'. So, my Necrons, practically speaking, need 1300 more points of models before I can use them in a 'standard game'. My Tau need about 1000. My Space Marines need about 1000. My Inquisitor can hang out with the Space Marines, I guess.
Similar to my point of view. Wanted to sprinkle some Necrons for melee (and developed a fluff for that too), but now it's gone for matched play.
I think I'll talk with my fellas after some games if we can house rule it out
MaxT wrote: Forging the narrative with Taudar is now firmly in the Narrative and Open play box. Not matched play.
And i'm ok with that
Funny thing is balance is hardly much of excuse when you have imperium with it's bazillion different factions to ally with while other armies then have zero allies. Balance as if.
It's typical GW pendulum "balancing". They hear complains about something, they just make it 180 opposite. Starting to look like external playtester influence was indeed quite small. Rules are rather typical GW style.
I have a Skitarii question - the new Radiujm weapon special rule is:
"Each time you make a wound roll of 6+ for this weapon, that hit inflicts 2 damage instead of 1."
OK, so does that mean it adds an additional wound that the other player must then allocate, or does it mean that a single wound, once allocated, will cause two damage against a single model?
I think it's the latter based on the Shooting rules, but if so that's a bloody gigantic nerfing relative to the current rule - how many situations are you likely to find yourself in where you'd want to be shooting a S3 AP- weapon at multiwound enemies(who will almost always have decent Toughness and Armour), and where an opponent won't be able to use allocation to mitigate the tiny handful of extra wounds?
MaxT wrote: Forging the narrative with Taudar is now firmly in the Narrative and Open play box. Not matched play.
And i'm ok with that
Bingo. You want a narrative army? Play a narrative game. You want a balanced army? You are constrained by rules via matched play.
GW probably realized they couldn't have both without lots of issues.
So they restricted Tau and Eldar from hanging out, but Imperium and Chaos keywords are hunky dory? There's nothing about "Imperium" that makes things easy to balance. "Chaos" isn't as bad, but still lumps in more units than the others. Then if you include Forgeworld, oh boy...
They shoehorned narrative play into matched play in order to let all the Imperium guys ally together, but then used that same argument to not let the other Factions do the same. Dumb.
Imperial forces consistently work together. Chaos too. Xenos? Not so much. Not enough to justify letting them consistently pair outside of narrative. While the Imperium and Chaos are very consistent in their pairings.
Don't be salty. It wasn't dumb, it was likely meant to curb stupid combos (be it for fluff or balance) in matched play.
So what is it? First you claim it's for balance. Now you are saying it's for fluff. Which one it is?
Balance it can't be as it's obviously not balanced some armies have bazillion allies and others don't have any...
its like salamanders players not having epic flamers now as there are no chapter tactics... you can still user flamers... its not like GW said oh no... salamanders cant use flamers anymore
Hahahaha.
No. Losing Terminators, Havocs and Chosen as actual choices in a specific Legion does not equate to losing buffed flamers.
Imagine your Salamanders instead lost Terminators, Devastators and Veterans. And all you were being told is 'It's still fine, you can use them, they're just not Salamanders.'
Meaning that, gods forbid, for whatever perk taking an All Legion X army has you have to lose it to take those. You can take them, but they won't benefit from the buffs of other characters around them or some of the psychic powers. You can take them, but they're now essentially a tax on force org slots that don't benefit you.
Losing improved flamers does not equate to losing units that have been part of your army for close to 2 decades.
Give up there seems to be a new breed of FANatic to go with NuGWplc It can’t be bargained with. It can’t be reasoned with. It doesn’t feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you concede that AoS/8th is perfect.
Honestly if I did not recognise some posters names I would assume the new PR/media savy GW was paying for posts.
MaxT wrote: Forging the narrative with Taudar is now firmly in the Narrative and Open play box. Not matched play.
And i'm ok with that
Funny thing is balance is hardly much of excuse when you have imperium with it's bazillion different factions to ally with while other armies then have zero allies. Balance as if.
It's typical GW pendulum "balancing". They hear complains about something, they just make it 180 opposite. Starting to look like external playtester influence was indeed quite small. Rules are rather typical GW style.
Well.... yes and no. Yes in that Imperium can still mix and match units, but no in that those units can no longer buff each other - Azrael can no longer make a unit of Conscripts 4++ and Fearless. Your Space Marine Biker CM with 2+/3++ can no longer tank for all your other characters.
They have more flexibility in choices, but they aren't the same as before in rules sharing.
So are you saying that as a Death Guard Player you want to be basically Chaos Space Marines+++, no? You gain some buffs and you lose flexibility. If you want all the flexibility of mixing Deathguard with CSM, you army has worse sinergyes.
Wheres the problem here?
My Dark Angels can't have everything Normal Space Marines have. They gain other units, other sinergies, and other rules... thats how you make Subfactions different.
The following units have been consistent to Death Guard since they first got Legion specific rules in Index Astartes - these units have been present in every incarnation (through their ability to be Marked as per the 3.5 Codex onwards)
Chaos Lords
Chaos Sorcerers
Daemon Princes
Terminators
Possessed
Plague Marines
Plague Havocs
Chaos Dreadnoughts
Predators
Land Raiders.
3.5 gave us Typhus and Chosen.
Now suddenly we no longer have Chosen, Havocs or Terminators. Sorcerers cannot take Palanquins - they cannot take the NURGLE SPECIFIC MOUNT OPTION. If that hasn't made you ask WTF then I don't know what will.
We're not asking for everything normal CSM have. But we are wondering why we've lost a quarter of our core choices since we because considered a sub faction. Especially something like Terminators. I really don't think a Dark Angel player should be trying to lecture me on subfactions when Chaos have long been neglected on that front and losing even more unit choices isn't how you make a sub faction, is it? You have how many different variants of Terminators and Bikes? How many?
andysonic1 wrote: ITT: people not understanding you can have your Havocs in your army, they just can't be Death Guard units and so do not benefit from anything related to the Keyword Death Guard. Makeup a new legion called Guard Death, pay for a Lord of Guard Death legion and look now your Havocs can reroll 1's. Wow that sure was complicated to figure out how to have my cake and eat it too.
Once again, that is not my problem. I am afraid that they will be unusable with whatever rules come out with death guard in the near future. What then? So my plague marines picked up heavy weapons, and now they're suddenly weaker then they used to be and can no longer interact with the rest of my army. Yeah, that makes sense.
MaxT wrote: Forging the narrative with Taudar is now firmly in the Narrative and Open play box. Not matched play.
And i'm ok with that
Funny thing is balance is hardly much of excuse when you have imperium with it's bazillion different factions to ally with while other armies then have zero allies. Balance as if.
It's typical GW pendulum "balancing". They hear complains about something, they just make it 180 opposite. Starting to look like external playtester influence was indeed quite small. Rules are rather typical GW style.
Well.... yes and no. Yes in that Imperium can still mix and match units, but no in that those units can no longer buff each other - Azrael can no longer make a unit of Conscripts 4++ and Fearless. Your Space Marine Biker CM with 2+/3++ can no longer tank for all your other characters.
They have more flexibility in choices, but they aren't the same as before in rules sharing.
Rules sharing definitely took a hit. BUT...
An Imperial Guard army can take a unit of Space Marines and a Space Marine Chaplain to act as elite shock troops. The Chaplain buffs the Marines and generally ignores the IG. A Necron army CAN'T take some Crisis Suits and a Commander to act as a mobile weapons platform. Imperium has the advantage here. More options is almost always better. Imperium armies have more options. The synergy issue can be largely mitigated by making your Imperium army out of smaller same faction sub-armies.
andysonic1 wrote: ITT: people not understanding you can have your Havocs in your army, they just can't be Death Guard units and so do not benefit from anything related to the Keyword Death Guard. Makeup a new legion called Guard Death, pay for a Lord of Guard Death legion and look now your Havocs can reroll 1's. Wow that sure was complicated to figure out how to have my cake and eat it too.
World Eaters player whose army suddenly has no restrictions other than Psykers whereas in third edition couldn't take Raptors or Havocs lecturing others who have had a third of their consistent choices for nearly two decades inexplicably removed.
World Eaters player who doesn't seem to understand how powerful overlapping buff bubbles is going to be in this edition, or perhaps neglects to try because he's going to benefit from it anyway as his army has no restrictions so gets maximum buffing.
So are you saying that as a Death Guard Player you want to be basically Chaos Space Marines+++, no? You gain some buffs and you lose flexibility. If you want all the flexibility of mixing Deathguard with CSM, you army has worse sinergyes.
Wheres the problem here?
My Dark Angels can't have everything Normal Space Marines have. They gain other units, other sinergies, and other rules... thats how you make Subfactions different.
The following units have been consistent to Death Guard since they first got Legion specific rules in Index Astartes - these units have been present in every incarnation (through their ability to be Marked as per the 3.5 Codex onwards)
Chaos Lords
Chaos Sorcerers
Daemon Princes
Terminators
Possessed
Plague Marines
Plague Havocs
Chaos Dreadnoughts
Predators
Land Raiders.
3.5 gave us Typhus and Chosen.
Now suddenly we no longer have Chosen, Havocs or Terminators. Sorcerers cannot take Palanquins - they cannot take the NURGLE SPECIFIC MOUNT OPTION. If that hasn't made you ask WTF then I don't know what will.
We're not asking for everything normal CSM have. But we are wondering why we've lost a quarter of our core choices since we because considered a sub faction. Especially something like Terminators. I really don't think a Dark Angel player should be trying to lecture me on subfactions when Chaos have long been neglected on that front and losing even more unit choices isn't how you make a sub faction, is it? You have how many different variants of Terminators and Bikes? How many?
Personally I prefer to consider myself a Tau player, my Dark Angels are a secondary army The Palanquin one I'll agree that is a shame you can't take it anymore, but was to be expected having not model for that. (But in other cases like Rough Riders they still let options. It appears that they have erased equipement options but not units)
You can have Chosen, Havocs or Terminators. They can't be Deathguard, they can be marked as Nurgle, or they'll be in the future.
Death Guard will gain a ton of new and "exclusive" faction units like the Blight Drone, Poxwalkers, specific Psychic Disciplines and even more sinergies in the future, including a Primarch.
And for that you'll pay losing the probable posibility of not having sinergies with Chosen or Havocs, because you'll receive Death Guard Terminators.
Death Guard has never been so special as a sub-faction ever before as it will be in max 2 months before 8th launch with their own Codex.
So no, personally I don't see reasons to complaint as a Death Guard player.
andysonic1 wrote: ITT: people not understanding you can have your Havocs in your army, they just can't be Death Guard units and so do not benefit from anything related to the Keyword Death Guard. Makeup a new legion called Guard Death, pay for a Lord of Guard Death legion and look now your Havocs can reroll 1's. Wow that sure was complicated to figure out how to have my cake and eat it too.
Once again, that is not my problem. I am afraid that they will be unusable with whatever rules come out with death guard in the near future. What then? So my plague marines picked up heavy weapons, and now they're suddenly weaker then they used to be and can no longer interact with the rest of my army. Yeah, that makes sense.
Some of this has been true for quite some time. Marked Havocs have been weaker than plague marines for at least 3 editions now (5-7). Sure they had T5 (as long as your standard bearer lived in 4e/5e), but no FNP. How did they miraculously get weaker for 3 editions. Now they are a bit weaker now that marks don't add benefits. They will be no more unusable than they are now (as in they are totally usable), they will just have less synergy than you would like.
I can't find any rules describing what the <army name> gets you. I saw CSM had marked armies basically; there were a few interactions where you got army buffs if you pick matching units with the armies for some mini-restrictions (but all chapters will still be marines; all legions will still be CSM, etc. so the faction doesn't matter for most selection), but... that's it?
I thought that equivalent rules were promised... did I miss these? Are they coming later? Was it just a pile of BS where flavor was replaced with almost-inconsequential synergies?
andysonic1 wrote: ITT: people not understanding you can have your Havocs in your army, they just can't be Death Guard units and so do not benefit from anything related to the Keyword Death Guard. Makeup a new legion called Guard Death, pay for a Lord of Guard Death legion and look now your Havocs can reroll 1's. Wow that sure was complicated to figure out how to have my cake and eat it too.
World Eaters player whose army suddenly has no restrictions other than Psykers whereas in third edition couldn't take Raptors or Havocs lecturing others who have had a third of their consistent choices for nearly two decades inexplicably removed.
World Eaters player who doesn't seem to understand how powerful overlapping buff bubbles is going to be in this edition, or perhaps neglects to try because he's going to benefit from it anyway as his army has no restrictions so gets maximum buffing.
Maybe the power of overlapping buff bubbles is exactly why you have more restrictions.
I can't find any rules describing what the <army name> gets you. I saw CSM had marked armies basically; there were a few interactions where you got army buffs if you pick matching units with the armies for some mini-restrictions (but all chapters will still be marines; all legions will still be CSM, etc. so the faction doesn't matter for most selection), but... that's it?
I thought that equivalent rules were promised... did I miss these? Are they coming later? Was it just a pile of BS where flavor was replaced with almost-inconsequential synergies?
The thinking is that they will come out later in faction specific codices. Which I find a bit disappointing as I wanted codices to be a thing of the past.
So are you saying that as a Death Guard Player you want to be basically Chaos Space Marines+++, no? You gain some buffs and you lose flexibility. If you want all the flexibility of mixing Deathguard with CSM, you army has worse sinergyes.
Wheres the problem here?
My Dark Angels can't have everything Normal Space Marines have. They gain other units, other sinergies, and other rules... thats how you make Subfactions different.
The following units have been consistent to Death Guard since they first got Legion specific rules in Index Astartes - these units have been present in every incarnation (through their ability to be Marked as per the 3.5 Codex onwards)
Chaos Lords
Chaos Sorcerers
Daemon Princes
Terminators
Possessed
Plague Marines
Plague Havocs
Chaos Dreadnoughts
Predators
Land Raiders.
3.5 gave us Typhus and Chosen.
Now suddenly we no longer have Chosen, Havocs or Terminators. Sorcerers cannot take Palanquins - they cannot take the NURGLE SPECIFIC MOUNT OPTION. If that hasn't made you ask WTF then I don't know what will.
We're not asking for everything normal CSM have. But we are wondering why we've lost a quarter of our core choices since we because considered a sub faction. Especially something like Terminators. I really don't think a Dark Angel player should be trying to lecture me on subfactions when Chaos have long been neglected on that front and losing even more unit choices isn't how you make a sub faction, is it? You have how many different variants of Terminators and Bikes? How many?
Personally I prefer to consider myself a Tau player, my Dark Angels are a secondary army The Palanquin one I'll agree that is a shame you can't take it anymore, but was to be expected having not model for that. (But in other cases like Rough Riders they still let options. It appears that they have erased equipement options but not units)
You can have Chosen, Havocs or Terminators. They can't be Deathguard, they can be marked as Nurgle, or they'll be in the future.
Death Guard will gain a ton of new and "exclusive" faction units like the Blight Drone, Poxwalkers, specific Psychic Disciplines and even more sinergies in the future, including a Primarch.
And for that you'll pay losing the probable posibility of not having sinergies with Chosen or Havocs, because you'll receive Death Guard Terminators.
Death Guard has never been so special as a sub-faction ever before as it will be in max 2 months before 8th launch with their own Codex.
So no, personally I don't see reasons to complaint as a Death Guard player.
Yup, agree with all of this. I will note though that the Rough Riders do technically have a model, crappy and old though it is.
Is it hard for anyone else to read those Ork leaks? Maybe it's just my mobile device but the photos look like they were taken from too far away to be legible.
Has anyone noticed the difference between Purestrain Genstealers 18pts for Genstealer Cult and Genestealers 10pts for Tyranids?
They have the same stats and same power level, but Purestrains cost 8pts more per model and the only difference is Cult Ambush and Unquestioning Loyalty. I admit Cult Ambush can be pretty good, but I fell like almost double the number of points is a little expensive.
I can't find any rules describing what the <army name> gets you. I saw CSM had marked armies basically; there were a few interactions where you got army buffs if you pick matching units with the armies for some mini-restrictions (but all chapters will still be marines; all legions will still be CSM, etc. so the faction doesn't matter for most selection), but... that's it?
I thought that equivalent rules were promised... did I miss these? Are they coming later? Was it just a pile of BS where flavor was replaced with almost-inconsequential synergies?
Right now <whatever> means not to much. Across the board its usually a reroll. Like Robute has any <Ultramarines> within 6 get to reroll hit and wounds. So when you pick your guys, you want to give them Ultramarines.
Later on when they release the codexes you will have more involved with <keywords>. Like AdMech will get forgeworld rules im sure for Mars, and any other big ones. Marine chapters more special rules, chaos gods, etc.
BuZzZzJaY wrote: Has anyone noticed the difference between Purestrain Genstealers 18pts for Genstealer Cult and Genestealers 10pts for Tyranids?
They have the same stats and same power level, but Purestrains cost 8pts more per model and the only difference is Cult Ambush and Unquestioning Loyalty. I admit Cult Ambush can be pretty good, but I fell like almost double the number of points is a little expensive.
Hive Fleet Genestealers cost 12, they have to pay for their claws.
BuZzZzJaY wrote: Has anyone noticed the difference between Purestrain Genstealers 18pts for Genstealer Cult and Genestealers 10pts for Tyranids?
They have the same stats and same power level, but Purestrains cost 8pts more per model and the only difference is Cult Ambush and Unquestioning Loyalty. I admit Cult Ambush can be pretty good, but I fell like almost double the number of points is a little expensive.
You need to give them Rending Claws, which is 2 points for Tyranid Genestealers and 0 points for GSC Purestrains. That makes it 12 vs. 18.
(Please don't declaw your Genestelears. They need them to hunt and it can be dangerous if they escape your house and are unable to defend themselves.)
Ronin_eX wrote:
In either case, Deathwing Knights are not 3W and lost shield wall. In return they gained the standard extra terminator wound (of course) and the Mace of Absolution is basically a thunder hammer with no to-hit penalty (the flail can cause overflow damage as hinted previously).
Deathwing basically dumped all the cruft extra rules they had accumulated. They are just fearless terminators (as it should be). Just wish I knew the cost!
Ronin_eX wrote:They finally did it! They managed to price Deathwing the same as normal terminators by not adding a bunch of pointless to their profile!
And it looks like Deathwing Knights are 50 points a pop (stormshield included). They are pretty damn resilient now and hit about as hard as TH/SS terminators, but without the penalty to hit. Bring a Deathwing Ancient along and a Librarian to pop Veil of Time and they can get downright scary off a teleport assault. Or better still, pop them in an LRC because the stupid army doesn't live or die on teleport assault anymore! Rejoice!
So for once, Deathwing lack the insane markup they've been used to and have a ton of great units to buff them. Their fearlessness is nice, but due to the small sizes and huge toughness, it isn't all that different from ATSKNF in most cases. So for once, we get something that is costed appropriately and still fluffy. This is basically all I could have hoped for.
Overall, I like it a lot. Good synergy, not just "marines, but they cost more" for once. Can't wait to field my DW.
I'm not nearly as stoked as you I guess.
Yeah DW are priced the same, but they basically are the same other than fearless and still over priced for what your getting compared to basic marines and their equipment.
Yes, it looks like the DW got nerfed somehow, like they were actually competitive before? All terminators got an extra wound but to be honest, that ain't going to make them good. They were so bad before(terminators), over costed, low wounds, low toughness and that the one extra wound with all the upgraded shooting this edition combined with armor modifiers and mortal wounds isn't going to do much if anything to keep them on the table. They basically retained fearless, and got a anti psychic gimmick. other than that they are identical to all other terminators in all other regards.
Storm bolters and assault cannons both got upgraded but again I don't know if thats enough to make shooty terminators competitive...i guess we'll see. Cyclones are ridiculously expensive now unless i'm reading something wrong.
The knights on the other hand, also got nerfed pretty hard in the special abilities category but they still look pretty good, the fact that all the non sergeant guys basically do mortal wounds with overflow damage is real nice. If you can get your DS charge off they should walk over just about anything and I think is the way to go i think.
For some reason all the DW terms got some anti psychic gimmick, not sure why, thats never really been their thing but ok, i'll take it i guess.
It also look slike DW will be penalized in the command point department if we run our pure DW lists we've been able to since at least 2nd edition.
The thing that stood out to me was the Dark Talon and the nephilim, which is funny because when they first came out many years ago, they, specially the nephilim was absolute garbage. even had rules that had no use in for it.
Gotta be honest, any whining about Eldar units is going to fall on 99% deaf ears. They've had it so good for so long that every unit in their army could be 100 pts overpointed and most peeps would only think "About damn time".
Well said sir, same goes for tau and it's not like there bad now they have just been knocked into line with the rest of us, but we can't be certain until we have played our selves.
BuZzZzJaY wrote: Has anyone noticed the difference between Purestrain Genstealers 18pts for Genstealer Cult and Genestealers 10pts for Tyranids?
They have the same stats and same power level, but Purestrains cost 8pts more per model and the only difference is Cult Ambush and Unquestioning Loyalty. I admit Cult Ambush can be pretty good, but I fell like almost double the number of points is a little expensive.
Hive Fleet Genestealers cost 12, they have to pay for their claws.
Okay, that's a little better. This whole paying for all of your equipment sucks when it should just be included in the base price of the model. Thanks!
I wonder if the forge world books will add options to the Existing limited lists?
Example: The Grey Knight section sells a Venerable dreadnought with Force Glaive and Psycannon. Will that model get rules in the FW stuff and can Grey Knights take it?
Kriswall wrote: It's a very good thing for the factions that actually get one. For the factions that don't? It's cripplingly terrible. How long do you think it's going to take GW to put out a codex for every army? Years? Realistically speaking, will every faction get an 8th edition codex before 9th edition comes out? I'm not sure they will.
I'm holding off on buying ANYTHING related to 8th edition until I see what kind of power divide the new codexes create. With Age of Sigmar, there are a ton of sub-factions. Generally speaking, the ones that have new style Battletomes are much stronger than the ones that don't.
When you put it that way, it doesn't bode well. It's actually all over the map. Fyre Slayers are getting an across the board points reductions depsite being a battletome army. Tomb Kings the opposite even though they don't even sell them anymore.
I think it's very unlikely that GW makes a points system that actually survives contant with truly competitive list building. So I'd expect the same results as they have had with AoS and the new battle tomes. Some amazingly powerful (Tzeentch) some too weak (Fyre Slayers) and others that just sort of recombine things and narrow battle field role and special abilities that used to be allegiance wide (Stormcast). The new Overlords book doesn't prohibit spamming the same range buffing character so you get a crazy shooting death star.
My comment about the AoS Battletomes was more about the content that's in them than their power level. My Tzeentch book is probably the most beautiful and enjoyable army book I've ever read for any game. in terms of balance, it requires some... restraint. Which I get is not something a lot of 40k players have or even think they should ever need to have.
On the balance/matched play front, I think your decision to hold off probably has merit.
dude are you even reading replies to your posts you can take them they are just not marked
what you are saying is, i can't have havocs with T5 and fnp so therefore i can't have havocs... Not the same
Wrong.
Read the Death Guard rules - realise that several of the characters apply buffs to Legion key word 'Death Guard'. Same with some of the powers. It's concerning that for a stopgap measure these units disappear completely - rarely does that indicate they are coming back in with a faction book. Quite the opposite. I don't give a hoot about T5 and FNP in that respect. I instead have greater concern for things like Terminators disappearing and the very real concern we might get Scarab Occult'd - oh, not got Armament X? Too bad. Which as others have mentioned is a bit of a dick move.
But then, you opened up with 'dude' so...don't know what I expected.
So are you saying that as a Death Guard Player you want to be basically Chaos Space Marines+++, no? You gain some buffs and you lose flexibility. If you want all the flexibility of mixing Deathguard with CSM, you army has worse sinergyes.
Wheres the problem here?
My Dark Angels can't have everything Normal Space Marines have. They gain other units, other sinergies, and other rules... thats how you make Subfactions different.
Becasue two of the things that are really fluffy for Death Guard are loads of slow moving infantry and slow moving firepower. Terminators and heavy weapons. Look at the Horus Heresy rules for us.
I know this sort of thing drives some people mad, but it's right up my alley. I have this crazy notion that people should game with like minded individuals and really work on the social side of the hobby. There's a reasonable selection of terrain already defined including LOS blocking hills, so this shouldn't be too hard.
I have a crazy notion of my own - rules being put out by a global multimillion dollar company that require people to pay for them should actually be rules, not Pirate Code-style "guidelines", because not everyone can choose to game only with like minded people and "work on the social side of the hobby". I'm sure folk limited to pickup gaming in clubs & stores or people with social disorders will be thrilled that you're now able to do exactly what you were already doing while they're stuck wasting what could be gaming time trying to hash out details that could have been solved with half a page of actual rules.
I mean seriously, not defining basic terrain rules is either colossal laziness or a cynical attempt to nudge pickup players towards buying the "official" GW terrain, it's not something to be lauded.
You definitely pay for spiffy new deployment options. Maybe cult ambush really is that good. 100 points for a drop pod? Errr, OK, maybe it is worth that much to drop a unit where ever and whenever you want, but it is still the end of the drop pod army.
Kriswall wrote: It's a very good thing for the factions that actually get one. For the factions that don't? It's cripplingly terrible. How long do you think it's going to take GW to put out a codex for every army? Years? Realistically speaking, will every faction get an 8th edition codex before 9th edition comes out? I'm not sure they will.
I'm holding off on buying ANYTHING related to 8th edition until I see what kind of power divide the new codexes create. With Age of Sigmar, there are a ton of sub-factions. Generally speaking, the ones that have new style Battletomes are much stronger than the ones that don't.
When you put it that way, it doesn't bode well. It's actually all over the map. Fyre Slayers are getting an across the board points reductions depsite being a battletome army. Tomb Kings the opposite even though they don't even sell them anymore.
I think it's very unlikely that GW makes a points system that actually survives contant with truly competitive list building. So I'd expect the same results as they have had with AoS and the new battle tomes. Some amazingly powerful (Tzeentch) some too weak (Fyre Slayers) and others that just sort of recombine things and narrow battle field role and special abilities that used to be allegiance wide (Stormcast). The new Overlords book doesn't prohibit spamming the same range buffing character so you get a crazy shooting death star.
My comment about the AoS Battletomes was more about the content that's in them than their power level. My Tzeentch book is probably the most beautiful and enjoyable army book I've ever read for any game. in terms of balance, it requires some... restraint. Which I get is not something a lot of 40k players have or even think they should ever need to have.
On the balance/matched play front, I think your decision to hold off probably has merit.
What Kriswall said about AoS isn't actually true though. Tzeentch are very powerful, and Stormcast are good, but mixed Chaos and Mixed Destruction are winning tournaments as well, and SCGT, biggest AoS tournament in the world, was won by mixed Chaos. Sylvaneth, Bonesplitterz, Kharadron, Blades of Khorne, the rest of the armies with the new style of Battletome... all good armies but not at the top of any lists really. Mixed lists are very much viable!
andysonic1 wrote: ITT: people not understanding you can have your Havocs in your army, they just can't be Death Guard units and so do not benefit from anything related to the Keyword Death Guard. Makeup a new legion called Guard Death, pay for a Lord of Guard Death legion and look now your Havocs can reroll 1's. Wow that sure was complicated to figure out how to have my cake and eat it too.
I think you are missing the point here.....
A unit of havoc a cant be death guard.
A sergant / chosen / warlord gives rerolls of 1 to all units with the death giard key word. ( not fact just example)
So adding 20 havoc so to your list will cancel out the chosen completely and a percentage of his points. He is say 100 points due to the buffs he gives. No buffs tax for nothing.
So that would be the same as you taking say gillyman who benifits ultrasmurfs and buying 50 prisim marines. But prisim marines don't get a buff from gillyman so x ammount of his points are a unwarranted tax..
Also for those saying just take them, you can get them latter.
You build 20 termies with auto cannons, new book comes out termies are gone now buy deaths termies yours are not allowed. Or cut off their arms auto cannons not allowed.
It would be like take your army and now cut off the arms of every troop and replace it with another piece on the spru ..... Because.
andysonic1 wrote: ITT: people not understanding you can have your Havocs in your army, they just can't be Death Guard units and so do not benefit from anything related to the Keyword Death Guard. Makeup a new legion called Guard Death, pay for a Lord of Guard Death legion and look now your Havocs can reroll 1's. Wow that sure was complicated to figure out how to have my cake and eat it too.
I think you are missing the point here.....
A unit of havoc a cant be death guard. A sergant / chosen / warlord gives rerolls of 1 to all units with the death giard key word. ( not fact just example) So adding 20 havoc so to your list will cancel out the chosen completely and a percentage of his points. He is say 100 points due to the buffs he gives. No buffs tax for nothing.
So that would be the same as you taking say gillyman who benifits ultrasmurfs and buying 50 prisim marines. But prisim marines don't get a buff from gillyman so x ammount of his points are a unwarranted tax..
Also for those saying just take them, you can get them latter.
You build 20 termies with auto cannons, new book comes out termies are gone now buy deaths termies yours are not allowed. Or cut off their arms auto cannons not allowed.
It would be like take your army and now cut off the arms of every troop and replace it with another piece on the spru ..... Because.
So the havocs cant benefit from the chosen or sergants, that doesnt stop any other key word death guard from benefiting no? it shouldn't invalidate a 100 points.
Why can't you just have a character that's not a death guard so he can give the buffs to the havocs?
You only need one faction key word in common to make a legal list, it doesn't have to be all of them.
Yodhrin wrote: I mean seriously, not defining basic terrain rules is either colossal laziness or a cynical attempt to nudge pickup players towards buying the "official" GW terrain, it's not something to be lauded.
Umm... that paragraph comes right after a section that defines woods, ruins, craters, barricades, obstacles, statuary, fuel pipes, damaged "battlescape" and hills.
If people are dependant on pick up games at stores and clubs then they should talk to the people they play against, exchange contact information, find local social media groups and actually start doing the social side of the hobby instead of just playing them once and never talking to them again. If you can go to a store or club and reliably get games, then start actually talking to your opponents. And if someone does have some sort of issue with social interactions, that's going to require an understanding local community anyway and you only get that by all the local people actually communicating and getting to know one another.
It's really strange to me that people can be members of a club and have no opportunity to find like minded individuals.
JimOnMars wrote: Why does Magnus the Red standing behind a building get cover, but a lone guardsman doesn't?
Who says they don't? If not in the cover they still get the 50% rule.
Only for non-infantry. Same for woods. If one guardsman of 10 steps out the back side of the woods, the entire unit loses cover from the front.
You're not reading it right. There are two categories of models: 1) Infantry models entirely in terrain, and 2) All other models. An infantry model that is not entirely in terrain is a member of category 2 and thus benefits from the 50% rule.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Why can't you just have a character that's not a death guard so he can give the buffs to the havocs?
You only need one faction key word in common to make a legal list, it doesn't have to be all of them.
Because that's not what he wants. Then there is the whole thing gw made people pay a arm and a leg for plague havoc so back in the day so removing them is a nut buster.
But say you want to run raven guard, you always ran raven guard. Now every list you ,are since they existed had jump troops and chain swords. You love raven guard spent a lot of money and time making them, then you recieve a quick update.
Units with raven guard key word can't take chainswords or jump packs. You can take them but your lord choice give no benifit to them.
You can still play them and in your mind they can be raven guard but will never get the fluff or key word that made them raven guard. You can grab a lord that benifits them but all units will be my version of raven guard never to get their buffs again.
It would be along the same lines as removing all faction key words except from characters in 30k. Your men can look like them but your lords and benifits can never benifit the troops elites or any other unit just the lord.
Well skimming over everything, I like most of it so far involving some specific things.
>Rough Riders just got a lot better and I no longer need Creed to outflank with them.
>I am good with all the Space Wolf Stuff...will probably start on a First Impressions Thread soon.
andysonic1 wrote: ITT: people not understanding you can have your Havocs in your army, they just can't be Death Guard units and so do not benefit from anything related to the Keyword Death Guard. Makeup a new legion called Guard Death, pay for a Lord of Guard Death legion and look now your Havocs can reroll 1's. Wow that sure was complicated to figure out how to have my cake and eat it too.
I think you are missing the point here.....
A unit of havoc a cant be death guard.
A sergant / chosen / warlord gives rerolls of 1 to all units with the death giard key word. ( not fact just example)
So adding 20 havoc so to your list will cancel out the chosen completely and a percentage of his points. He is say 100 points due to the buffs he gives. No buffs tax for nothing.
So that would be the same as you taking say gillyman who benifits ultrasmurfs and buying 50 prisim marines. But prisim marines don't get a buff from gillyman so x ammount of his points are a unwarranted tax..
Also for those saying just take them, you can get them latter.
You build 20 termies with auto cannons, new book comes out termies are gone now buy deaths termies yours are not allowed. Or cut off their arms auto cannons not allowed.
It would be like take your army and now cut off the arms of every troop and replace it with another piece on the spru ..... Because.
Except that death guard models still benefit from the buffs so unless you are taking deathguard characters in an army with no deathguard models the buffs still work. Your argument is akin to taking a character that buffs tanks, in an army that includes both tanks and infantry, he still buff the tanks. As for options on units being negated, they might be, and that would suck, but it would not be a first.
What Kriswall said about AoS isn't actually true though. Tzeentch are very powerful, and Stormcast are good, but mixed Chaos and Mixed Destruction are winning tournaments as well, and SCGT, biggest AoS tournament in the world, was won by mixed Chaos. Sylvaneth, Bonesplitterz, Kharadron, Blades of Khorne, the rest of the armies with the new style of Battletome... all good armies but not at the top of any lists really. Mixed lists are very much viable!
This is a very good point. I was just thinking that the first batch of 8th edition 40k tournaments might be one by mixed Imperial armies.
There is also both a growing general positivity and growing numbers in the AoS tournament scene. People who play in large ultra competitive AoS events love it. So I guess the battletome approach is working, even if the top tier armies don't look anything at all like 8th edition fantasy battle armies.
If there are people that would like to get rid of all these deathguard they cannot now use, please PM me. I will offer a decent second hand price and will promise to enjoy them.
Not a wind up. You say they are unusable, I will give you money to buy something that makes your hobby better
RP looks beastly, Monolith looks like it will be epic, Illuminator Szeras is about the same (but harder to kill) Destroyers ignoring the -1 hit modifier for moving.
What Kriswall said about AoS isn't actually true though. Tzeentch are very powerful, and Stormcast are good, but mixed Chaos and Mixed Destruction are winning tournaments as well, and SCGT, biggest AoS tournament in the world, was won by mixed Chaos. Sylvaneth, Bonesplitterz, Kharadron, Blades of Khorne, the rest of the armies with the new style of Battletome... all good armies but not at the top of any lists really. Mixed lists are very much viable!
This is a very good point. I was just thinking that the first batch of 8th edition 40k tournaments might be one by mixed Imperial armies.
There is also both a growing general positivity and growing numbers in the AoS tournament scene. People who play in large ultra competitive AoS events love it. So I guess the battletome approach is working, even if the top tier armies don't look anything at all like 8th edition fantasy battle armies.
\
So, how many non-mixed, non-new battletome armies are winning tournaments? Because "mixed" is only a thing for Imperium, and to a lesser extent, Chaos and Eldar. Xenos armies generally don't have the option. So... no codex options and no option to mix in other faction units to shore up weak points. Doesn't sound promising. I'd be surprised to see mono-faction Necrons, Tau or Orks placing at the same level as a mixed Chaos or mixed Imperium list. This is BEFORE you buff certain factions with fancy new codex benefits.
I'll wait and see, but I'm not optimistic that 8th edition will have balance that's any better than 7th or AoS.
andysonic1 wrote: ITT: people not understanding you can have your Havocs in your army, they just can't be Death Guard units and so do not benefit from anything related to the Keyword Death Guard. Makeup a new legion called Guard Death, pay for a Lord of Guard Death legion and look now your Havocs can reroll 1's. Wow that sure was complicated to figure out how to have my cake and eat it too.
I think you are missing the point here.....
A unit of havoc a cant be death guard.
A sergant / chosen / warlord gives rerolls of 1 to all units with the death giard key word. ( not fact just example)
So adding 20 havoc so to your list will cancel out the chosen completely and a percentage of his points. He is say 100 points due to the buffs he gives. No buffs tax for nothing.
So that would be the same as you taking say gillyman who benifits ultrasmurfs and buying 50 prisim marines. But prisim marines don't get a buff from gillyman so x ammount of his points are a unwarranted tax..
Also for those saying just take them, you can get them latter.
You build 20 termies with auto cannons, new book comes out termies are gone now buy deaths termies yours are not allowed. Or cut off their arms auto cannons not allowed.
It would be like take your army and now cut off the arms of every troop and replace it with another piece on the spru ..... Because.
Except that death guard models still benefit from the buffs so unless you are taking deathguard characters in an army with no deathguard models the buffs still work. Your argument is akin to taking a character that buffs tanks, in an army that includes both tanks and infantry, he still buff the tanks. As for options on units being negated, they might be, and that would suck, but it would not be a first.
Except we are talking about bikers havoc a and termies, who can never be death guard. So if you want them like in the last 7 editions your SOL
RP looks beastly, Monolith looks like it will be epic, Illuminator Szeras is about the same (but harder to kill) Destroyers ignoring the -1 hit modifier for moving.
Looks pretty good!
Couldn't agree more! It seems we sacrificed a bit of our hitting power (Gauss change), but are probably the most durable faction now, as we should be
RP looks beastly, Monolith looks like it will be epic, Illuminator Szeras is about the same (but harder to kill) Destroyers ignoring the -1 hit modifier for moving.
Looks pretty good!
Couldn't agree more! It seems we sacrificed a bit of our hitting power (Gauss change), but are probably the most durable faction now, as we should be
I am a little concerned about the cron ability to damage "big things". Mostly lords of war - our lords of war, while....very durable - dont have a lot of range, or to be honest firepower against high toughness models (yes, we can shoot a lot of shots from a obelisk - but we are wounding knights on a 5 - and if we are that close, we are about to get a big sword to the face).
I suspect I will be using absolute hordes of warriors (fun, if that is exactly what you want to play) or spamming a lot of doom scythes?
(well I know it won't be war scythes - what happened to them being a good anti-big-thing weapon?).
andysonic1 wrote: ITT: people not understanding you can have your Havocs in your army, they just can't be Death Guard units and so do not benefit from anything related to the Keyword Death Guard. Makeup a new legion called Guard Death, pay for a Lord of Guard Death legion and look now your Havocs can reroll 1's. Wow that sure was complicated to figure out how to have my cake and eat it too.
I think you are missing the point here.....
A unit of havoc a cant be death guard.
A sergant / chosen / warlord gives rerolls of 1 to all units with the death giard key word. ( not fact just example)
So adding 20 havoc so to your list will cancel out the chosen completely and a percentage of his points. He is say 100 points due to the buffs he gives. No buffs tax for nothing.
So that would be the same as you taking say gillyman who benifits ultrasmurfs and buying 50 prisim marines. But prisim marines don't get a buff from gillyman so x ammount of his points are a unwarranted tax..
Also for those saying just take them, you can get them latter.
You build 20 termies with auto cannons, new book comes out termies are gone now buy deaths termies yours are not allowed. Or cut off their arms auto cannons not allowed.
It would be like take your army and now cut off the arms of every troop and replace it with another piece on the spru ..... Because.
Except that death guard models still benefit from the buffs so unless you are taking deathguard characters in an army with no deathguard models the buffs still work. Your argument is akin to taking a character that buffs tanks, in an army that includes both tanks and infantry, he still buff the tanks. As for options on units being negated, they might be, and that would suck, but it would not be a first.
Except we are talking about bikers havoc a and termies, who can never be death guard. So if you want them like in the last 7 editions your SOL
No you really aren't, you just take a second CSM detachment with nurgle marked units that won't benefit from your deathguard rules, they will still function as units and be nurgle marked. The only issue is the desire for more powerful synergy there is no fluff argument to be made, nor one about not being able to use your models. You just won't have the best synergy possible.
So at 2k points you take a main battalion detachment of deathguard and then say a Spearhead detachment with your havocs, termies and bikes all nurgle marked. With an HQ who is nurgle marked. Your bikes, havocs etc, just won't get buffed by deathguard specific buffs, but they will still be usable on the table in a completely legal army.
Kriswall wrote: So, how many non-mixed, non-new battletome armies are winning tournaments? Because "mixed" is only a thing for Imperium, and to a lesser extent, Chaos and Eldar. Xenos armies generally don't have the option. So... no codex options and no option to mix in other faction units to shore up weak points. Doesn't sound promising. I'd be surprised to see mono-faction Necrons, Tau or Orks placing at the same level as a mixed Chaos or mixed Imperium list. This is BEFORE you buff certain factions with fancy new codex benefits.
In the most recent SCGT tourny with 180 attendees, Seraphon placed 4th and Destruction Alliance armies (with few sub-factions) placed 3rd and 7th.
andysonic1 wrote: ITT: people not understanding you can have your Havocs in your army, they just can't be Death Guard units and so do not benefit from anything related to the Keyword Death Guard. Makeup a new legion called Guard Death, pay for a Lord of Guard Death legion and look now your Havocs can reroll 1's. Wow that sure was complicated to figure out how to have my cake and eat it too.
I think you are missing the point here.....
A unit of havoc a cant be death guard.
A sergant / chosen / warlord gives rerolls of 1 to all units with the death giard key word. ( not fact just example)
So adding 20 havoc so to your list will cancel out the chosen completely and a percentage of his points. He is say 100 points due to the buffs he gives. No buffs tax for nothing.
So that would be the same as you taking say gillyman who benifits ultrasmurfs and buying 50 prisim marines. But prisim marines don't get a buff from gillyman so x ammount of his points are a unwarranted tax..
Also for those saying just take them, you can get them latter.
You build 20 termies with auto cannons, new book comes out termies are gone now buy deaths termies yours are not allowed. Or cut off their arms auto cannons not allowed.
It would be like take your army and now cut off the arms of every troop and replace it with another piece on the spru ..... Because.
Except that death guard models still benefit from the buffs so unless you are taking deathguard characters in an army with no deathguard models the buffs still work. Your argument is akin to taking a character that buffs tanks, in an army that includes both tanks and infantry, he still buff the tanks. As for options on units being negated, they might be, and that would suck, but it would not be a first.
Except we are talking about bikers havoc a and termies, who can never be death guard. So if you want them like in the last 7 editions your SOL
No you really aren't, you just take a second CSM detachment with nurgle marked units that won't benefit from your deathguard rules, they will still function as units and be nurgle marked. The only issue is the desire for more powerful synergy there is no fluff argument to be made, nor one about not being able to use your models. You just won't have the best synergy possible.
So at 2k points you take a main battalion detachment of deathguard and then say a Spearhead detachment with your havocs, termies and bikes all nurgle marked. With an HQ who is nurgle marked. Your bikes, havocs etc, just won't get buffed by deathguard specific buffs, but they will still be usable on the table in a completely legal army.
But that's not exceptable, would you like to have to run your termies every game as Ultramarines? And all tactics as salamanders?
If you want a army wide synergy and lore you want to run mono faction death guard not duo.
RP looks beastly, Monolith looks like it will be epic, Illuminator Szeras is about the same (but harder to kill) Destroyers ignoring the -1 hit modifier for moving.
Looks pretty good!
Couldn't agree more! It seems we sacrificed a bit of our hitting power (Gauss change), but are probably the most durable faction now, as we should be
I am a little concerned about the cron ability to damage "big things". Mostly lords of war - our lords of war, while....very durable - dont have a lot of range, or to be honest firepower against high toughness models (yes, we can shoot a lot of shots from a obelisk - but we are wounding knights on a 5 - and if we are that close, we are about to get a big sword to the face).
I suspect I will be using absolute hordes of warriors (fun, if that is exactly what you want to play) or spamming a lot of doom scythes? (well I know it won't be war scythes - what happened to them being a good anti-big-thing weapon?).
Thoughts from anyone else ?
Well, for taking down things like Imperial Knights, I actually think that Doom Scythes, Monoliths and Doomsday Arks will be wonderful. Barges to, but I'll be using them more towards infantry
Warscythes are still amazing, S7 carving through 3+ saves and doing 2dmg, that'll be a bane of a lot of things, especially if you get them into combat first
RP looks beastly, Monolith looks like it will be epic, Illuminator Szeras is about the same (but harder to kill) Destroyers ignoring the -1 hit modifier for moving.
Looks pretty good!
Couldn't agree more! It seems we sacrificed a bit of our hitting power (Gauss change), but are probably the most durable faction now, as we should be
I am a little concerned about the cron ability to damage "big things". Mostly lords of war - our lords of war, while....very durable - dont have a lot of range, or to be honest firepower against high toughness models (yes, we can shoot a lot of shots from a obelisk - but we are wounding knights on a 5 - and if we are that close, we are about to get a big sword to the face).
I suspect I will be using absolute hordes of warriors (fun, if that is exactly what you want to play) or spamming a lot of doom scythes?
(well I know it won't be war scythes - what happened to them being a good anti-big-thing weapon?).
Thoughts from anyone else ?
I don't think it will be that difficult.
Necrons historically has struggled against hard targets due to their lack of specialized weapons, and this will be no different, really, and they do have options.
Gauss cannons deal D3 wounds, Doomsday cannon and Heavy Gauss deals D6 wounds, etc etc
andysonic1 wrote: ITT: people not understanding you can have your Havocs in your army, they just can't be Death Guard units and so do not benefit from anything related to the Keyword Death Guard. Makeup a new legion called Guard Death, pay for a Lord of Guard Death legion and look now your Havocs can reroll 1's. Wow that sure was complicated to figure out how to have my cake and eat it too.
I think you are missing the point here.....
A unit of havoc a cant be death guard.
A sergant / chosen / warlord gives rerolls of 1 to all units with the death giard key word. ( not fact just example)
So adding 20 havoc so to your list will cancel out the chosen completely and a percentage of his points. He is say 100 points due to the buffs he gives. No buffs tax for nothing.
So that would be the same as you taking say gillyman who benifits ultrasmurfs and buying 50 prisim marines. But prisim marines don't get a buff from gillyman so x ammount of his points are a unwarranted tax..
Also for those saying just take them, you can get them latter.
You build 20 termies with auto cannons, new book comes out termies are gone now buy deaths termies yours are not allowed. Or cut off their arms auto cannons not allowed.
It would be like take your army and now cut off the arms of every troop and replace it with another piece on the spru ..... Because.
Except that death guard models still benefit from the buffs so unless you are taking deathguard characters in an army with no deathguard models the buffs still work. Your argument is akin to taking a character that buffs tanks, in an army that includes both tanks and infantry, he still buff the tanks. As for options on units being negated, they might be, and that would suck, but it would not be a first.
Except we are talking about bikers havoc a and termies, who can never be death guard. So if you want them like in the last 7 editions your SOL
No you really aren't, you just take a second CSM detachment with nurgle marked units that won't benefit from your deathguard rules, they will still function as units and be nurgle marked. The only issue is the desire for more powerful synergy there is no fluff argument to be made, nor one about not being able to use your models. You just won't have the best synergy possible.
So at 2k points you take a main battalion detachment of deathguard and then say a Spearhead detachment with your havocs, termies and bikes all nurgle marked. With an HQ who is nurgle marked. Your bikes, havocs etc, just won't get buffed by deathguard specific buffs, but they will still be usable on the table in a completely legal army.
Hell you do not even have to do this. You do not need two different detachments for your two different legions. Death Guard and "Not Death Guard" can be in the same detachment, just pay for a "Not Death Guard" lord so your "Not Death Guard" units benefit from his aura. This is honestly not as huge an issue as people are making it, take a step back and realize you can use all your models they just don't get super special death guard stuff YET
kestral wrote: You definitely pay for spiffy new deployment options. Maybe cult ambush really is that good. 100 points for a drop pod? Errr, OK, maybe it is worth that much to drop a unit where ever and whenever you want, but it is still the end of the drop pod army.
8th in general is the end of the vehicle spam army
bad days for all those who bought models for all the free transport options, we are back in 3rd/4th now regarding vehicle pricing
So not every unit will take a transport just because it can and not every unit will need to have one
It lists what units can have Death Guard as their Legion key word. Notice that Chosen, Chaos Terminators and Havocs are not there. Nor are Warpsmiths, Obliterators, Mutilators, Forgefiends, Maulerfiends, Raptors, Bikes, Heldrakes.....
Yep. They listed the currently available models that fit the Death Guard army. Terminators are already known to be coming. Why would they give you old termies and then take them away to add new ones?
Sorry to say that if you want bikes and other crap - you're not playing Death Guard. That's not what Death Guard is. Look at Thousand Sons. I don't get everything either.
I have to say I really like the new cover and terrain rules. Some of the things I hated most about 7th edition were model's eye view dictating cover saves, having multiple save rolls, and rolling for difficult terrain tests.
Are you on the base of a forest, ruin or crater? Bam, +1 to your save. Charging through one of those? Bam, subtract two inches.
Stuff like that really speeds up play and takes out the kind of subjectivity that can start arguments over whether this model can realistically see 49% or 50% of that one. I mean they still have that for models on opposite sides of terrain features, but it was moving through terrain that was really kind of painful anyway.
andysonic1 wrote: ITT: people not understanding you can have your Havocs in your army, they just can't be Death Guard units and so do not benefit from anything related to the Keyword Death Guard. Makeup a new legion called Guard Death, pay for a Lord of Guard Death legion and look now your Havocs can reroll 1's. Wow that sure was complicated to figure out how to have my cake and eat it too.
I think you are missing the point here.....
A unit of havoc a cant be death guard.
A sergant / chosen / warlord gives rerolls of 1 to all units with the death giard key word. ( not fact just example)
So adding 20 havoc so to your list will cancel out the chosen completely and a percentage of his points. He is say 100 points due to the buffs he gives. No buffs tax for nothing.
So that would be the same as you taking say gillyman who benifits ultrasmurfs and buying 50 prisim marines. But prisim marines don't get a buff from gillyman so x ammount of his points are a unwarranted tax..
Also for those saying just take them, you can get them latter.
You build 20 termies with auto cannons, new book comes out termies are gone now buy deaths termies yours are not allowed. Or cut off their arms auto cannons not allowed.
It would be like take your army and now cut off the arms of every troop and replace it with another piece on the spru ..... Because.
Except that death guard models still benefit from the buffs so unless you are taking deathguard characters in an army with no deathguard models the buffs still work. Your argument is akin to taking a character that buffs tanks, in an army that includes both tanks and infantry, he still buff the tanks. As for options on units being negated, they might be, and that would suck, but it would not be a first.
Except we are talking about bikers havoc a and termies, who can never be death guard. So if you want them like in the last 7 editions your SOL
No you really aren't, you just take a second CSM detachment with nurgle marked units that won't benefit from your deathguard rules, they will still function as units and be nurgle marked. The only issue is the desire for more powerful synergy there is no fluff argument to be made, nor one about not being able to use your models. You just won't have the best synergy possible.
So at 2k points you take a main battalion detachment of deathguard and then say a Spearhead detachment with your havocs, termies and bikes all nurgle marked. With an HQ who is nurgle marked. Your bikes, havocs etc, just won't get buffed by deathguard specific buffs, but they will still be usable on the table in a completely legal army.
Hell you do not even have to do this. You do not need two different detachments for your two different legions. Death Guard and "Not Death Guard" can be in the same detachment, just pay for a "Not Death Guard" lord so your "Not Death Guard" units benefit from his aura. This is honestly not as huge an issue as people are making it, take a step back and realize you can use all your models they just don't get super special death guard stuff YET
What would be the purpose of them omitting all those units right now, not allowing them to use the "super special death guard stuff", if they just plan on letting them later on??
It lists what units can have Death Guard as their Legion key word. Notice that Chosen, Chaos Terminators and Havocs are not there. Nor are Warpsmiths, Obliterators, Mutilators, Forgefiends, Maulerfiends, Raptors, Bikes, Heldrakes.....
Yep. They listed the currently available models that fit the Death Guard army. Terminators are already known to be coming. Why would they give you old termies and then take them away to add new ones?
Sorry to say that if you want bikes and other crap - you're not playing Death Guard. That's not what Death Guard is. Look at Thousand Sons. I don't get everything either.
They do (to an extent), but if they don't get "Havocs" they'll get something else. It doesn't take much to look at how the initial AoS factions got improved.
If this stresses people then just play CSM until they have everything you want out of DG. Everyone is in a similar boat, but crying about it when you're second on deck...jesus...
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CthuluIsSpy wrote: I don't think so. In the 3.5 ed codex I think Havocs were one of the unit types forbidden to the Death Guard, along with Raptors and bikes.
They do (to an extent), but if they don't get "Havocs" they'll get something else. It doesn't take much to look at how the initial AoS factions got improved.
If this stresses people then just play CSM until they have everything you want out of DG. Everyone is in a similar boat, but crying about it when you're second on deck...jesus...
How did they improve the AoS factions? How did they add new units and stuff? Free downloads, or did you have to buy supplements?
CthuluIsSpy wrote: I don't think so. In the 3.5 ed codex I think Havocs were one of the unit types forbidden to the Death Guard, along with Raptors and bikes.
They were allowed. Death Guard = Infantry.
I guess that makes sense. Its been like 13 years, so I can't remember anything clearly.
Unless its about necrons. I remember a lot about them.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: I don't think so. In the 3.5 ed codex I think Havocs were one of the unit types forbidden to the Death Guard, along with Raptors and bikes.
Look at the heresy. We can legally have armies with 40 dudes armed with missile launchers/autocannons/las cannons and other fun stuff.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: How did they improve the AoS factions? How did they add new units and stuff? Free downloads, or did you have to buy supplements?
AoS was still finding it's feet so the initial books were sorta meh. The newer books have expanded spells, artefacts, and traits. Stormcast got a book early on and recently got a new book with new units.
Kornath wrote: Sort of hoped that Necron Crypteks could buy some nice new gear, but that turned out to be a futile hope ;_;
Yeah, I was hoping for options like in 6th Codex
Yeah, we sort of feel a bit bland.. we even lost 3 C'tan powers
We can still hold out for our Necron Codex.
I too was disappointed by our crypteks no longer being able to take eldritch lances. Because that would be hilarious.
I don't mind the loss of the C'tan powers; the c'tan already have some nasty abilities. That Nightbringer is going to just melt infantry and deal some nasty damage to vehicles, and the Deceiver is all about deployment shenanigans.
They do (to an extent), but if they don't get "Havocs" they'll get something else. It doesn't take much to look at how the initial AoS factions got improved.
If this stresses people then just play CSM until they have everything you want out of DG. Everyone is in a similar boat, but crying about it when you're second on deck...jesus...
Everyone does not have the problem that death guard have, they are not in a similar boat to us. Again, if it was just that we didn't have legion rules and we had to wait a few months for them, I would have no problem. Death guard and thousand sons are the only two armies to have units directly omitted. Units that we previously, could take.
Cant wait to see the FW releases and how their keywords work out. Hope they managed to keep it consistent with things like aeronautica imperialis and the like.
andysonic1 wrote: ITT: people not understanding you can have your Havocs in your army, they just can't be Death Guard units and so do not benefit from anything related to the Keyword Death Guard. Makeup a new legion called Guard Death, pay for a Lord of Guard Death legion and look now your Havocs can reroll 1's. Wow that sure was complicated to figure out how to have my cake and eat it too.
I think you are missing the point here.....
A unit of havoc a cant be death guard.
A sergant / chosen / warlord gives rerolls of 1 to all units with the death giard key word. ( not fact just example)
So adding 20 havoc so to your list will cancel out the chosen completely and a percentage of his points. He is say 100 points due to the buffs he gives. No buffs tax for nothing.
So that would be the same as you taking say gillyman who benifits ultrasmurfs and buying 50 prisim marines. But prisim marines don't get a buff from gillyman so x ammount of his points are a unwarranted tax..
Also for those saying just take them, you can get them latter.
You build 20 termies with auto cannons, new book comes out termies are gone now buy deaths termies yours are not allowed. Or cut off their arms auto cannons not allowed.
It would be like take your army and now cut off the arms of every troop and replace it with another piece on the spru ..... Because.
Except that death guard models still benefit from the buffs so unless you are taking deathguard characters in an army with no deathguard models the buffs still work. Your argument is akin to taking a character that buffs tanks, in an army that includes both tanks and infantry, he still buff the tanks. As for options on units being negated, they might be, and that would suck, but it would not be a first.
Except we are talking about bikers havoc a and termies, who can never be death guard. So if you want them like in the last 7 editions your SOL
No you really aren't, you just take a second CSM detachment with nurgle marked units that won't benefit from your deathguard rules, they will still function as units and be nurgle marked. The only issue is the desire for more powerful synergy there is no fluff argument to be made, nor one about not being able to use your models. You just won't have the best synergy possible.
So at 2k points you take a main battalion detachment of deathguard and then say a Spearhead detachment with your havocs, termies and bikes all nurgle marked. With an HQ who is nurgle marked. Your bikes, havocs etc, just won't get buffed by deathguard specific buffs, but they will still be usable on the table in a completely legal army.
Hell you do not even have to do this. You do not need two different detachments for your two different legions. Death Guard and "Not Death Guard" can be in the same detachment, just pay for a "Not Death Guard" lord so your "Not Death Guard" units benefit from his aura. This is honestly not as huge an issue as people are making it, take a step back and realize you can use all your models they just don't get super special death guard stuff YET
It'll be a huge issue for a lot of players when Codex Death Guard comes out and requires that your entire army have the Death Guard keyword to unlock all the goodies. That's how it works in Age of Sigmar. Battletome Sylvaneth only grants benefits if EVERY unit/Battalion in the army has the Sylvaneth keyword. Include one Elf and your Sylvaneth army defaults to Order and loses all benefits.
So yes, you can put Havocs/Terminators/etc into a "Death Guard" army, but it won't really be a Death Guard faction army and very likely won't be eligible for any of the inevitable Death Guard bonus rules from the inevitable Codex Death Guard.
It'll be a huge issue for a lot of players when Codex Death Guard comes out and requires that your entire army have the Death Guard keyword to unlock all the goodies. That's how it works in Age of Sigmar. Battletome Sylvaneth only grants benefits if EVERY unit/Battalion in the army has the Sylvaneth keyword. Include one Elf and your Sylvaneth army defaults to Order and loses all benefits.
So yes, you can put Havocs/Terminators/etc into a "Death Guard" army, but it won't really be a Death Guard faction army and very likely won't be eligible for any of the inevitable Death Guard bonus rules from the inevitable Codex Death Guard.
Yes and no.
Disciples of Tzeentch lets me take a "Tzeentch" army and have the destiny dice trait. There are variable spells and artefacts I can pick depending on the keywords I have in my army. Having not all Death Guard does not preclude all benefits.
andysonic1 wrote: ITT: people not understanding you can have your Havocs in your army, they just can't be Death Guard units and so do not benefit from anything related to the Keyword Death Guard. Makeup a new legion called Guard Death, pay for a Lord of Guard Death legion and look now your Havocs can reroll 1's. Wow that sure was complicated to figure out how to have my cake and eat it too.
I think you are missing the point here.....
A unit of havoc a cant be death guard.
A sergant / chosen / warlord gives rerolls of 1 to all units with the death giard key word. ( not fact just example)
So adding 20 havoc so to your list will cancel out the chosen completely and a percentage of his points. He is say 100 points due to the buffs he gives. No buffs tax for nothing.
So that would be the same as you taking say gillyman who benifits ultrasmurfs and buying 50 prisim marines. But prisim marines don't get a buff from gillyman so x ammount of his points are a unwarranted tax..
Also for those saying just take them, you can get them latter.
You build 20 termies with auto cannons, new book comes out termies are gone now buy deaths termies yours are not allowed. Or cut off their arms auto cannons not allowed.
It would be like take your army and now cut off the arms of every troop and replace it with another piece on the spru ..... Because.
Except that death guard models still benefit from the buffs so unless you are taking deathguard characters in an army with no deathguard models the buffs still work. Your argument is akin to taking a character that buffs tanks, in an army that includes both tanks and infantry, he still buff the tanks. As for options on units being negated, they might be, and that would suck, but it would not be a first.
Except we are talking about bikers havoc a and termies, who can never be death guard. So if you want them like in the last 7 editions your SOL
No you really aren't, you just take a second CSM detachment with nurgle marked units that won't benefit from your deathguard rules, they will still function as units and be nurgle marked. The only issue is the desire for more powerful synergy there is no fluff argument to be made, nor one about not being able to use your models. You just won't have the best synergy possible.
So at 2k points you take a main battalion detachment of deathguard and then say a Spearhead detachment with your havocs, termies and bikes all nurgle marked. With an HQ who is nurgle marked. Your bikes, havocs etc, just won't get buffed by deathguard specific buffs, but they will still be usable on the table in a completely legal army.
Hell you do not even have to do this. You do not need two different detachments for your two different legions. Death Guard and "Not Death Guard" can be in the same detachment, just pay for a "Not Death Guard" lord so your "Not Death Guard" units benefit from his aura. This is honestly not as huge an issue as people are making it, take a step back and realize you can use all your models they just don't get super special death guard stuff YET
It'll be a huge issue for a lot of players when Codex Death Guard comes out and requires that your entire army have the Death Guard keyword to unlock all the goodies. That's how it works in Age of Sigmar. Battletome Sylvaneth only grants benefits if EVERY unit/Battalion in the army has the Sylvaneth keyword. Include one Elf and your Sylvaneth army defaults to Order and loses all benefits.
So yes, you can put Havocs/Terminators/etc into a "Death Guard" army, but it won't really be a Death Guard faction army and very likely won't be eligible for any of the inevitable Death Guard bonus rules from the inevitable Codex Death Guard.
...a codex that will likely include the option of Putrifiers with Entropy Cannons (or something similar) that fulfill the role of infantry based heavy weapons for DG. Or maybe they'll just be removed and the fluff will be updated that pure DG have accepted Nurgle's gift such that they no longer rely on those legion elements, leaving that job to less devoted Nurgle-marked CSM.
Change happens, and expecting an army to remain in exactly your preferred vision forever is just a setup for disappointment.
What Kriswall said about AoS isn't actually true though. Tzeentch are very powerful, and Stormcast are good, but mixed Chaos and Mixed Destruction are winning tournaments as well, and SCGT, biggest AoS tournament in the world, was won by mixed Chaos. Sylvaneth, Bonesplitterz, Kharadron, Blades of Khorne, the rest of the armies with the new style of Battletome... all good armies but not at the top of any lists really. Mixed lists are very much viable!
This is a very good point. I was just thinking that the first batch of 8th edition 40k tournaments might be one by mixed Imperial armies.
There is also both a growing general positivity and growing numbers in the AoS tournament scene. People who play in large ultra competitive AoS events love it. So I guess the battletome approach is working, even if the top tier armies don't look anything at all like 8th edition fantasy battle armies.
\
So, how many non-mixed, non-new battletome armies are winning tournaments? Because "mixed" is only a thing for Imperium, and to a lesser extent, Chaos and Eldar. Xenos armies generally don't have the option. So... no codex options and no option to mix in other faction units to shore up weak points. Doesn't sound promising. I'd be surprised to see mono-faction Necrons, Tau or Orks placing at the same level as a mixed Chaos or mixed Imperium list. This is BEFORE you buff certain factions with fancy new codex benefits.
I'll wait and see, but I'm not optimistic that 8th edition will have balance that's any better than 7th or AoS.
Seems to be some negativity but I quite like the new Dark Eldar.
I think some will be upset if they owned the hotness (for DE anyway) and nothing else, but if you have a varied collection you should be fine. There are some question marks (Talos are in a weird spot for instance due to fairly weak melee attacks) and I can't say about balance but it doesn't look like instant garbage.
Vryce wrote: Check the first post guys, there's the entire set of indexes and rule books linked to a Google Drive site. Everything you need.
I'm pretty sure moderators have overlooked it because of the Hype and massive amount of comments but... isn't that basically piracy of copyrighted content?
Question - it says for Deathwatch to use the space marine librarian/captain/chaplain datasheets. But I did not see the part where it said they get special issue ammo? Is that gone from the characters now?
I've definitely not just skimmed all the scans of the new books, but if I did, I would probably think that I am really happy with how 8th edition looks and would be excited to try a few games of it maybe this weekend.
It'll be a huge issue for a lot of players when Codex Death Guard comes out and requires that your entire army have the Death Guard keyword to unlock all the goodies. That's how it works in Age of Sigmar. Battletome Sylvaneth only grants benefits if EVERY unit/Battalion in the army has the Sylvaneth keyword. Include one Elf and your Sylvaneth army defaults to Order and loses all benefits.
So yes, you can put Havocs/Terminators/etc into a "Death Guard" army, but it won't really be a Death Guard faction army and very likely won't be eligible for any of the inevitable Death Guard bonus rules from the inevitable Codex Death Guard.
So when the Dark Angels codex comes out I won't be able to take Swiftclaw Attack Bikes in my Ravenwing army and enjoy the benefits of having a fully Ravenwing detachment, whatever they may be if they even exist? But I wanted to play a full Ravenwing army!
Or for a less hyperbolic example, I already can't take Inceptor squads and have them be buffed by my Ravenwing units, despite them both being fast attack type Astartes units. You would think that Ravenwing would be pretty interested in a mobile heavy weapons platform. My landspeeders cost 5 points more than regular SM speeders for some reason, but I can't just take the vanilla ones and gain any faction specific bonuses from it.
Yodhrin wrote: It's really strange to me that you can be such an avowedly accomplished socialite while evidently having so little capacity to imagine situations outside of your own and how they might affect others.
As for an "understanding local community" - lol. I'll take scraping by with pickup games and basic politeness over revealing to people I have an autism spectrum disorder and taking the IME 50/50 gamble that they're not massive gits any day of the week. You seriously don't have any idea how torturous even low-level confrontation can be for some folk, do you. Nor evidently does it intrude on your view that plenty of folk already have friends, even gaming friends, and that they go looking for pickup games because they want to play more games, not make more friends.
More rules and more defined rules is always superior to less rules and less defined rules, because ignoring rules when playing with people you know and who share your particular taste is easier by orders of magnitude than trying to come up with rules on the fly when playing pickup games.
I really don't understand what this is all about. They give rules for every basic terrain type that you're going to commonly see on the vast majority of tables. Then they simply suggest that if you or your opponent somehow comes up with a piece of terrain that isn't considered a hill, building, woods, dangerous woods, craters, barricades, obstacles, statuary, or fuel pipe, you should probably agree on exactly how that crazy ass terrain feature works before you start the game. Should they release a separate book of rules solely for every conceivable terrain feature?
I recognize that codexes are forthcoming that will likely solve this, but I have to say it's a LITTLE whack that the Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, AND Space Wolves, none of whom are in the starter box, got their own psyker tables, while the Thousand Sons, the preeminent psyker army in the whole game, got diddly on that front (although the Dark Hereticus discipline isn't too bad).
How did they improve the AoS factions? How did they add new units and stuff? Free downloads, or did you have to buy supplements?
For example the AoS starter box launched the Stormcast with three units and two heroes. None of them had any alternate weapon options. When there battletome was released shortly after they had access to seven more heroes and five more units with expanded options for the three units in the starter box list. The Death guard and Primaris units in the index books are only the starter set lists. They will be expanded with there own codex releases, most likely within a few months.
Brian888 wrote: I recognize that codexes are forthcoming that will likely solve this, but I have to say it's a LITTLE whack that the Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, AND Space Wolves, none of whom are in the starter box, got their own psyker tables, while the Thousand Sons, the preeminent psyker army in the whole game, got diddly on that front (although the Dark Hereticus discipline isn't too bad).
Yea i'm a little miffed about that, too. Oh well - I'm going to have to smite some fools.
Well, since we have all the rules I don't think the round-ups from Facebook are going to be all that useful since they're clarifications and coy teasing based on the article of the day.
Brian888 wrote: I recognize that codexes are forthcoming that will likely solve this, but I have to say it's a LITTLE whack that the Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, AND Space Wolves, none of whom are in the starter box, got their own psyker tables, while the Thousand Sons, the preeminent psyker army in the whole game, got diddly on that front (although the Dark Hereticus discipline isn't too bad).
Yea i'm a little miffed about that, too. Oh well - I'm going to have to smite some fools.
Yep. Sons laugh at the fancy-pants 3+ invulnerable a Space Wolf can get. Eat mortal wounds, wolfie.
It'll be a huge issue for a lot of players when Codex Death Guard comes out and requires that your entire army have the Death Guard keyword to unlock all the goodies. That's how it works in Age of Sigmar. Battletome Sylvaneth only grants benefits if EVERY unit/Battalion in the army has the Sylvaneth keyword. Include one Elf and your Sylvaneth army defaults to Order and loses all benefits.
So yes, you can put Havocs/Terminators/etc into a "Death Guard" army, but it won't really be a Death Guard faction army and very likely won't be eligible for any of the inevitable Death Guard bonus rules from the inevitable Codex Death Guard.
So when the Dark Angels codex comes out I won't be able to take Swiftclaw Attack Bikes in my Ravenwing army and enjoy the benefits of having a fully Ravenwing detachment, whatever they may be if they even exist? But I wanted to play a full Ravenwing army!
Or for a less hyperbolic example, I already can't take Inceptor squads and have them be buffed by my Ravenwing units, despite them both being fast attack type Astartes units. You would think that Ravenwing would be pretty interested in a mobile heavy weapons platform. My landspeeders cost 5 points more than regular SM speeders for some reason, but I can't just take the vanilla ones and gain any faction specific bonuses from it.
You still seem so very obtuse here.
Let's put it this way.
Death Guard armies have had Chaos Terminators since they technically became a pseudo faction with the 3rd edition Index Astartes article. Hell, someone who wanted to run Mono-Nurgle in second ed would use Terminators then as well.
So tell me, in 2nd and 3rd ed were Swiftclaw Bikers part of the Ravenwing army list variant? Or were they part of a completely different army? Because guess what, Chaos Terminators were part of Death Guard armies at the time.
Were Inceptor squads?
You seem to be struggling to understand that Death Guard players have lost units that they have had since early 3rd edition and in every edition since. And you keep trying to equate it to nonsensical situations (Swiftclaw Bikers) or to a situation that can't even happen yet (Inceptors).
A better situation, to perhaps help you understand is...imagine you are a Ravenwing player. You've always played your niche Ravenwing army since 2nd edition. And in 8th edition, you have no access to any sort of Land Speeder, whatsoever. None. Not a single Land Speeder. Not one.
And you're told.
'Rumour has it you'll get a codex soon. It's a stopgap list.'
You'd be wondering - well, if it's a stopgap list, why the feth doesn't it have the Land Speeder in it then til I get my new book? After all, you have no idea when your new book is going to drop. It could be a week, 2 weeks, a month or 3 months.
'Oh, but we've already seen images of them so it must be soon.'
We saw half these images nearly 3 months ago. That's a bloody strange definition of soon. That's a hell of a time to wait without something that's been a core of your army for the last two decades.
Stus67 wrote: Is it just me or can you not give veterans carapace armor anymore? Or change armor in general like on the Inquisitors.
Yep. No carapace for IG veterans or characters, no artificer armour for marine captains and no power armour for inquisitors (probably rendering most inquisitor models people have unusable.)
Stus67 wrote: Is it just me or can you not give veterans carapace armor anymore? Or change armor in general like on the Inquisitors.
Yep. No carapace for IG veterans or characters, no artificer armour for marine captains and no power armour for inquisitors (probably rendering most inquisitor models people have unusable.)
You know... you can run them as Inquisitors without power armour... I don't think anybody will have a problem. WYSIWYG is a problem when it can confuse people because theres more options than one. If Power Armour isn't a option, it shoudln't be a problem with your model.
It lists what units can have Death Guard as their Legion key word. Notice that Chosen, Chaos Terminators and Havocs are not there. Nor are Warpsmiths, Obliterators, Mutilators, Forgefiends, Maulerfiends, Raptors, Bikes, Heldrakes.....
Yep. They listed the currently available models that fit the Death Guard army. Terminators are already known to be coming. Why would they give you old termies and then take them away to add new ones?
Sorry to say that if you want bikes and other crap - you're not playing Death Guard. That's not what Death Guard is. Look at Thousand Sons. I don't get everything either.
Ah. Let's see.
Chosen = Veterans. Are Veterans appropriate to Death Guard? Yes, yes they are. They're the closest we have to a bodyguard unit.
Terminators - 'Oh, you're getting new Terminators, why would they give you the current ones? Not like Death Guard Terminators have ever existed before.' Huh.
Havocs - Oh Havocs aren't Death Guard. They've NEVER released Death Guard Havocs. EVER. Not once.
Stus67 wrote: Is it just me or can you not give veterans carapace armor anymore? Or change armor in general like on the Inquisitors.
Yep. No carapace for IG veterans or characters, no artificer armour for marine captains and no power armour for inquisitors (probably rendering most inquisitor models people have unusable.)
You know... you can run them as Inquisitors without power armour... I don't think anybody will have a problem. WYSIWYG is a problem when it can confuse people because theres more options than one. If Power Armour isn't a option, it shoudln't be a problem with your model.
What being reasonable? no way
in seriousness that does kinda suck and it seems like inquisitor got gutted pretty hard in the options department.
Stus67 wrote: Is it just me or can you not give veterans carapace armor anymore? Or change armor in general like on the Inquisitors.
Yep. No carapace for IG veterans or characters, no artificer armour for marine captains and no power armour for inquisitors (probably rendering most inquisitor models people have unusable.)
gak IG veterans got a huge nerf, no special rules anymore on them and they can't take carapace. I have to ask didn't GW PR dude say they would not remove rules for models already in the game, but my IG the Vendetta, priest and platoon command squads have been removed.
Stus67 wrote: Is it just me or can you not give veterans carapace armor anymore? Or change armor in general like on the Inquisitors.
Yep. No carapace for IG veterans or characters, no artificer armour for marine captains and no power armour for inquisitors (probably rendering most inquisitor models people have unusable.)
gak IG veterans got a huge nerf, no special rules anymore on them and they can't take carapace. I have to ask didn't GW PR dude say they would not remove rules for models already in the game, but my IG the Vendetta, priest and platoon command squads have been removed.
Stus67 wrote: Is it just me or can you not give veterans carapace armor anymore? Or change armor in general like on the Inquisitors.
Yep. No carapace for IG veterans or characters, no artificer armour for marine captains and no power armour for inquisitors (probably rendering most inquisitor models people have unusable.)
gak IG veterans got a huge nerf, no special rules anymore on them and they can't take carapace. I have to ask didn't GW PR dude say they would not remove rules for models already in the game, but my IG the Vendetta, priest and platoon command squads have been removed.
Vendetta is a FW kit, Platoon commander squads i think were split up, Priests i have no idea, and Carapace has no actual model. besides scions i think.
It lists what units can have Death Guard as their Legion key word. Notice that Chosen, Chaos Terminators and Havocs are not there. Nor are Warpsmiths, Obliterators, Mutilators, Forgefiends, Maulerfiends, Raptors, Bikes, Heldrakes.....
Yep. They listed the currently available models that fit the Death Guard army. Terminators are already known to be coming. Why would they give you old termies and then take them away to add new ones?
Sorry to say that if you want bikes and other crap - you're not playing Death Guard. That's not what Death Guard is. Look at Thousand Sons. I don't get everything either.
Ah. Let's see.
Chosen = Veterans. Are Veterans appropriate to Death Guard? Yes, yes they are. They're the closest we have to a bodyguard unit.
Terminators - 'Oh, you're getting new Terminators, why would they give you the current ones? Not like Death Guard Terminators have ever existed before.' Huh.
Havocs - Oh Havocs aren't Death Guard. They've NEVER released Death Guard Havocs. EVER. Not once.
To be fair, the 3ed codex was 13 years ago. Its easy to forget a detail like that.
Saying there's no Death Guard terminators is silly though.
I mean, what does Typhus Wear? Not-Terminator armor?
It lists what units can have Death Guard as their Legion key word. Notice that Chosen, Chaos Terminators and Havocs are not there. Nor are Warpsmiths, Obliterators, Mutilators, Forgefiends, Maulerfiends, Raptors, Bikes, Heldrakes.....
Yep. They listed the currently available models that fit the Death Guard army. Terminators are already known to be coming. Why would they give you old termies and then take them away to add new ones?
Sorry to say that if you want bikes and other crap - you're not playing Death Guard. That's not what Death Guard is. Look at Thousand Sons. I don't get everything either.
Ah. Let's see.
Chosen = Veterans. Are Veterans appropriate to Death Guard? Yes, yes they are. They're the closest we have to a bodyguard unit.
Terminators - 'Oh, you're getting new Terminators, why would they give you the current ones? Not like Death Guard Terminators have ever existed before.' Huh.
Havocs - Oh Havocs aren't Death Guard. They've NEVER released Death Guard Havocs. EVER. Not once.
And for the last time, when the Death Guard codex comes out you'll probably get those things. This is to just hold you off until the codex comes out and you can get some games in.
Seriously. Take the discussion about what is or is not a Death Guard unit to another thread. It's off-topic, and making it difficult to filter through the thread for leaks.
Stus67 wrote: Is it just me or can you not give veterans carapace armor anymore? Or change armor in general like on the Inquisitors.
Yep. No carapace for IG veterans or characters, no artificer armour for marine captains and no power armour for inquisitors (probably rendering most inquisitor models people have unusable.)
gak IG veterans got a huge nerf, no special rules anymore on them and they can't take carapace. I have to ask didn't GW PR dude say they would not remove rules for models already in the game, but my IG the Vendetta, priest and platoon command squads have been removed.
It lists what units can have Death Guard as their Legion key word. Notice that Chosen, Chaos Terminators and Havocs are not there. Nor are Warpsmiths, Obliterators, Mutilators, Forgefiends, Maulerfiends, Raptors, Bikes, Heldrakes.....
Yep. They listed the currently available models that fit the Death Guard army. Terminators are already known to be coming. Why would they give you old termies and then take them away to add new ones?
Sorry to say that if you want bikes and other crap - you're not playing Death Guard. That's not what Death Guard is. Look at Thousand Sons. I don't get everything either.
Ah. Let's see.
Chosen = Veterans. Are Veterans appropriate to Death Guard? Yes, yes they are. They're the closest we have to a bodyguard unit.
Terminators - 'Oh, you're getting new Terminators, why would they give you the current ones? Not like Death Guard Terminators have ever existed before.' Huh.
Havocs - Oh Havocs aren't Death Guard. They've NEVER released Death Guard Havocs. EVER. Not once.
You can always just be patient and wait for the rest of the Death Guard stuff we know is coming.
I'm really curious how many games that someone could be expected to play during the time that we're expecting the release, and exactly how much psychic strife would result from those games having a model holding a Lascannon be slightly miscategorized from an ideal vision on the army sheet.
So the Avatar of Tzeentch can't cast Tzeentch spells ? Yeeah right. Way to go GW ... here is hoping for some change to that with an faction-battletome-of-40k-1ksons, but who am i kidding.
Gonna check with my meta about that saturday, as i am not going to play tournaments anyway.
I aim at something like pick tzeentch / heretic without roll, if mixed must roll which one. Why they did not do that for Magnus is beyond me.
We saw half these images nearly 3 months ago. That's a bloody strange definition of soon. That's a hell of a time to wait without something that's been a core of your army for the last two decades.
Well maybe they've been waiting for something inconsequential; perhaps the release of the edition of the game the new codex pertains to?
EnTyme wrote: Seriously. Take the discussion about what is or is not a Death Guard unit to another thread. It's off-topic, and making it difficult to filter through the thread for leaks.
What further leaks do you want? It's all already been leaked. All the Indexes. And the core rulebook. There's plenty of links on the thread.
I mean, unless you really are waiting to see the inside cover of the books....
EnTyme wrote: Seriously. Take the discussion about what is or is not a Death Guard unit to another thread. It's off-topic, and making it difficult to filter through the thread for leaks.
What further leaks do you want? It's all already been leaked. All the Indexes. And the core rulebook. There's plenty of links on the thread.
I mean, unless you really are waiting to see the inside cover of the books....
Yea but some of us don't care about death guard, and what is or isnt death guard being bickered about and dominating the thread. If its that big a deal, make a new thread about it please
EnTyme wrote: Seriously. Take the discussion about what is or is not a Death Guard unit to another thread. It's off-topic, and making it difficult to filter through the thread for leaks.
What further leaks do you want? It's all already been leaked. All the Indexes. And the core rulebook. There's plenty of links on the thread.
I mean, unless you really are waiting to see the inside cover of the books....
That's exactly what I'm waiting for
How long do you all think it'll be before we see a Codex?
Stus67 wrote: Is it just me or can you not give veterans carapace armor anymore? Or change armor in general like on the Inquisitors.
Noticed the same thing. It's not even possible to give your company commander different armour either.
To be fair i seriously dont think there was ever a model for carapace so i can see why. there might of been one in the ye old days but now its the same flak armor for everyone.
We saw half these images nearly 3 months ago. That's a bloody strange definition of soon. That's a hell of a time to wait without something that's been a core of your army for the last two decades.
Well maybe they've been waiting for something inconsequential; perhaps the release of the edition of the game the new codex pertains to?
The idea of a stopgap list is to bide people over until a proper release so they can use their existing army to play. Why remove units from a stopgap list? That's somewhat contrary to its purpose is it not? Especially when it has already been shown that those existing units were staples of the list in the first place. And perhaps, you once more missed the point.
It's been 3+ months - seeing those images doesn't equal Soon. It could be another three months before things are even released. Hell, we've seen things in previews and teasers that weren't even released when the release came about. Wouldn't be the first time, wouldn't be the last.
Nactor wrote: So the Avatar of Tzeentch can't cast Tzeentch spells ? Yeeah right. Way to go GW ... here is hoping for some change to that with an faction-battletome-of-40k-1ksons, but who am i kidding.
Gonna check with my meta about that saturday, as i am not going to play tournaments anyway.
I aim at something like pick tzeentch / heretic without roll, if mixed must roll which one. Why they did not do that for Magnus is beyond me.
True (and he even has the Daemon keyword). Still, it'd be very hard to pass up the 32" total movement Magnus can get from Warptime.
EnTyme wrote: Seriously. Take the discussion about what is or is not a Death Guard unit to another thread. It's off-topic, and making it difficult to filter through the thread for leaks.
What further leaks do you want? It's all already been leaked. All the Indexes. And the core rulebook. There's plenty of links on the thread.
I mean, unless you really are waiting to see the inside cover of the books....
You know... you can run them as Inquisitors without power armour...
I have a problem with that! (Regarding my own models I mean.) I'm kinda neurotic about WYSIWYG.
Besides, the armour is just one part of gutting the options. Inquisition lost a huge amount of gear. And what's the most absurd thing, you can no longer equip an inquisitor with a melee weapon and any non-pistol shooting weapon, rendering many inquisitor models, including some of the models GW currently sells, illegal!
The idea of a stopgap list is to bide people over until a proper release so they can use their existing army to play. Why remove units from a stopgap list? That's somewhat contrary to its purpose is it not? Especially when it has already been shown that those existing units were staples of the list in the first place. And perhaps, you once more missed the point.
It's been 3+ months - seeing those images doesn't equal Soon. It could be another three months before things are even released. Hell, we've seen things in previews and teasers that weren't even released when the release came about. Wouldn't be the first time, wouldn't be the last.
Which would piss you off more though; them disallowing units that they plan to replace with new ones in a new codex, or allowing you to use your existing units and then saying you must replace them with new units out of the blue? Also, if the codex was leaked 3 months ago, then surely they are ready to release it at pretty much any time.
We saw half these images nearly 3 months ago. That's a bloody strange definition of soon. That's a hell of a time to wait without something that's been a core of your army for the last two decades.
Well maybe they've been waiting for something inconsequential; perhaps the release of the edition of the game the new codex pertains to?
The idea of a stopgap list is to bide people over until a proper release so they can use their existing army to play. Why remove units from a stopgap list? That's somewhat contrary to its purpose is it not? Especially when it has already been shown that those existing units were staples of the list in the first place. And perhaps, you once more missed the point.
Because if GW wants to have a new unit called Putrifiers (or whatever) be the new Death Guard equivalent of Havocs, and they give DG access to Havocs in the index but replace them with Putrifiers in the new book, then there's inconsistent information between the codex and the index. Better to remove them now and give access later than give them access in one list and not the other.
It's been 3+ months - seeing those images doesn't equal Soon. It could be another three months before things are even released. Hell, we've seen things in previews and teasers that weren't even released when the release came about. Wouldn't be the first time, wouldn't be the last.
And we could all get hit by a bus tomorrow and it won't matter whether we had the perfect setup for our toys tomorrow or in three months.
EnTyme wrote: Seriously. Take the discussion about what is or is not a Death Guard unit to another thread. It's off-topic, and making it difficult to filter through the thread for leaks.
What further leaks do you want? It's all already been leaked. All the Indexes. And the core rulebook. There's plenty of links on the thread.
I mean, unless you really are waiting to see the inside cover of the books....
Need those FW books!
They FW books might be the Saving Grace - if they do things for all their kits. Might mean the upgrade kits = datasheets.
EnTyme wrote: Seriously. Take the discussion about what is or is not a Death Guard unit to another thread. It's off-topic, and making it difficult to filter through the thread for leaks.
What further leaks do you want? It's all already been leaked. All the Indexes. And the core rulebook. There's plenty of links on the thread.
I mean, unless you really are waiting to see the inside cover of the books....
God forbid I come to a news and rumors thread looking for news and rumors.
EnTyme wrote: Seriously. Take the discussion about what is or is not a Death Guard unit to another thread. It's off-topic, and making it difficult to filter through the thread for leaks.
... what more leaks are people waiting for at this point?
ClockworkZion wrote: Well, since we have all the rules I don't think the round-ups from Facebook are going to be all that useful since they're clarifications and coy teasing based on the article of the day.
props to all your hard work and @rippy was apreciated.
EnTyme wrote: Seriously. Take the discussion about what is or is not a Death Guard unit to another thread. It's off-topic, and making it difficult to filter through the thread for leaks.
... what more leaks are people waiting for at this point?
It lists what units can have Death Guard as their Legion key word. Notice that Chosen, Chaos Terminators and Havocs are not there. Nor are Warpsmiths, Obliterators, Mutilators, Forgefiends, Maulerfiends, Raptors, Bikes, Heldrakes.....
Yep. They listed the currently available models that fit the Death Guard army. Terminators are already known to be coming. Why would they give you old termies and then take them away to add new ones?
Sorry to say that if you want bikes and other crap - you're not playing Death Guard. That's not what Death Guard is. Look at Thousand Sons. I don't get everything either.
Ah. Let's see.
Chosen = Veterans. Are Veterans appropriate to Death Guard? Yes, yes they are. They're the closest we have to a bodyguard unit.
Terminators - 'Oh, you're getting new Terminators, why would they give you the current ones? Not like Death Guard Terminators have ever existed before.' Huh.
Havocs - Oh Havocs aren't Death Guard. They've NEVER released Death Guard Havocs. EVER. Not once.
You cry over what feels like a thousand pages, but maybe you could remember that DG is getting one if not THE first codex of this edition, which might change the whole thing up again?! WE know for certain, that DG Termis are coming. There will be a box for regular Plague Marines, probably with a tone of weapons to chose from, probably allowing havoc-like loadout. So please, keep your calm and wait a month or two
The idea of a stopgap list is to bide people over until a proper release so they can use their existing army to play. Why remove units from a stopgap list? That's somewhat contrary to its purpose is it not? Especially when it has already been shown that those existing units were staples of the list in the first place. And perhaps, you once more missed the point.
It's been 3+ months - seeing those images doesn't equal Soon. It could be another three months before things are even released. Hell, we've seen things in previews and teasers that weren't even released when the release came about. Wouldn't be the first time, wouldn't be the last.
Which would piss you off more though; them disallowing units that they plan to replace with new ones in a new codex, or allowing you to use your existing units and then saying you must replace them with new units out of the blue? Also, if the codex was leaked 3 months ago, then surely they are ready to release it at pretty much any time.
Disallowing units they plan to eventually replace. Because I already have to replace them. They've already told me I've got to replace my units "out of the blue" they've just not given me anything to replace them with yet. It's not like I'll be running out to buy every new unit the moment they announce it, I'll just end up proxying similar units until I can fill my new army out properly. That isn't even possible here. It's utterly moronic.
Latro_ wrote: anyone notice normal chaos champions can nab a chainaxe, lil titbit
I'm also pretty sure Interrogator Chaplains can take any melee weapon in the DA armory for free, including the DW knight flail that causes spillover damage!
Ok list writing... still a lil hazy on the pts add up
e.g. does a chaos land raider come with all the stuff for 239pts or are we talking
239+50+50+17 for 356
edit: assuming so since a predator auto cannon has pts and is also listed on the DS
It lists what units can have Death Guard as their Legion key word. Notice that Chosen, Chaos Terminators and Havocs are not there. Nor are Warpsmiths, Obliterators, Mutilators, Forgefiends, Maulerfiends, Raptors, Bikes, Heldrakes.....
Yep. They listed the currently available models that fit the Death Guard army. Terminators are already known to be coming. Why would they give you old termies and then take them away to add new ones?
Sorry to say that if you want bikes and other crap - you're not playing Death Guard. That's not what Death Guard is. Look at Thousand Sons. I don't get everything either.
Ah. Let's see.
Chosen = Veterans. Are Veterans appropriate to Death Guard? Yes, yes they are. They're the closest we have to a bodyguard unit.
Terminators - 'Oh, you're getting new Terminators, why would they give you the current ones? Not like Death Guard Terminators have ever existed before.' Huh.
Havocs - Oh Havocs aren't Death Guard. They've NEVER released Death Guard Havocs. EVER. Not once.
You cry over what feels like a thousand pages, but maybe you could remember that DG is getting one if not THE first codex of this edition, which might change the whole thing up again?! WE know for certain, that DG Termis are coming. There will be a box for regular Plague Marines, probably with a tone of weapons to chose from, probably allowing havoc-like loadout. So please, keep your calm and wait a month or two
I believe there are several warnings in this (admittedly lengthy) thread about quoting massive blocks just to add 5% more. You don't need to quote the entire nested conversation just to argue about the last comment. It's really easy to spoiler content on dakka to avoid that.
In any case, being the first or second codex in a new edition (especially one with unproven rules) isn't necessarily a good thing most of the time. Despite claims of playtesting, GW game designers historically do not have their finger on the pulse of what will or won't be used and the community doesn't hash out the broken good or broken bad stuff until at least a few months in. Making it a supposedly living type ruleset helps though but it still doesn't make being first out the door much of a help in the long run.
Latro_ wrote: Ok list writing... still a lil hazy on the pts add up
e.g. does a chaos land raider come with all the stuff for 239pts or are we talking
239+50+50+17 for 356
edit: assuming so since a predator auto cannon has pts and is also listed on the DS
Yes, you have to pay for all of the wargear. The points cost is for a naked landraider.
Latro_ wrote: anyone notice normal chaos champions can nab a chainaxe, lil titbit
I'm also pretty sure Interrogator Chaplains can take any melee weapon in the DA armory for free, including the DW knight flail that causes spillover damage!
No, they can choose from the Space marine melee weapon list on page 11.
120p for 3 Zoanthropes add 24p and you get a Hive tyrant with rending claws. Which can also cast smite. So why would i take Zoanthropes? Am i missing something here?
Neither DarkStarSabre or I have straight up assumed that these units are 100% not going to be in the new lists. Rather, we find it weird that nearly half of the Chaos Marine range has been made unaccessable to death guard armies., including units which it makes no sense for them to be unable to field. However, many of you have taken it as your divine right to silence the voices of the heathens who dare to question anything about 8th edition. So of course, we will respond in defence of ourselves, wouldn't exactly call that "crying for over a thousand pages".
SO there are an awful lot of things with fly that can go kill flyers now - pretty much all the jump pack people from Seraphim to Assauty Marines and most skimmers.
nordsturmking wrote: 120p for 3 Zoanthropes add 24p and you get a Hive tyrant with rending claws. Which can also cast smite. So why would i take Zoanthropes? Am i missing something here?
Which link gives a summation of terrain and its effects? I've seen some comments about how cover works but nothing really about difficult terrain or the lack thereof.
You know... you can run them as Inquisitors without power armour...
I have a problem with that! (Regarding my own models I mean.) I'm kinda neurotic about WYSIWYG.
Besides, the armour is just one part of gutting the options. Inquisition lost a huge amount of gear. And what's the most absurd thing, you can no longer equip an inquisitor with a melee weapon and any non-pistol shooting weapon, rendering many inquisitor models, including some of the models GW currently sells, illegal!
This is the downside of temporary lists. I'm sure as codicil come out. Losses such as this will be fixed. I'm dad that my inquisitorial landraider that I've had since 4th is no longer a thing. And my crusaders/DCA have to ride in sister rhinos/immolaters.
ClockworkZion wrote: Well, since we have all the rules I don't think the round-ups from Facebook are going to be all that useful since they're clarifications and coy teasing based on the article of the day.
props to all your hard work and @rippy was apreciated.
It's been a pleasure!
Though trying to catch up ten plus pages at a time has been a nightmare. You guys really bring out the trucks when the salt flows around here.
That said, I can understand why some faction specific stuff might warrant a rather unhappy reaction (I mean Sisters can have Combi-weapons OR Power Weapons on their models, not both) but I think they really should be relegated into topics about those factions so people can find things more easily than 6+ pages of whatever argument is popular at the moment.
nordsturmking wrote: 120p for 3 Zoanthropes add 24p and you get a Hive tyrant with rending claws. Which can also cast smite. So why would i take Zoanthropes? Am i missing something here?
Kharne the Befriender wrote: So is it possible that the 2 books (aside from the BRB) that come with Dark Imperium are the codexes for Primaris Marines and Death Guard?
I feel like this is the case, those books look to thick to be just for the models it includes, even if they added fluff and filler
No, they're just pamplets with the rules and points costs for the models. Get you started booklets basically.
Kharne the Befriender wrote: So is it possible that the 2 books (aside from the BRB) that come with Dark Imperium are the codexes for Primaris Marines and Death Guard?
I feel like this is the case, those books look to thick to be just for the models it includes, even if they added fluff and filler
No, they're just pamplets with the rules and points costs for the models. Get you started booklets basically.
Oh, well that's a bummer, but hey, can't complain with all these sweet releases
Kharne the Befriender wrote: So is it possible that the 2 books (aside from the BRB) that come with Dark Imperium are the codexes for Primaris Marines and Death Guard?
I feel like this is the case, those books look to thick to be just for the models it includes, even if they added fluff and filler
They have just the rules for the models in the box, that's it. I've seen them.
Also, out of the three generic inquisitors sold by GW one has power armor and all of them have swords. Plus one has a combi weapon.
Yep. A combi-weapon and a power sword, which is a combination you cannot have any more.
I don't think any of them are legal anymore. Even Greyfax has a sword so I guess she'll be the exception.
You guys really need to read all the rules for the Inquisition Army List. Power Sword is on the Melee Weapon List and Combi-Weapons (not Grav) are on the Ranged Weapon List.
Latro_ wrote: anyone notice normal chaos champions can nab a chainaxe, lil titbit
I'm also pretty sure Interrogator Chaplains can take any melee weapon in the DA armory for free, including the DW knight flail that causes spillover damage!
No, they can choose from the Space marine melee weapon list on page 11.
Damn, you're right. Now I can't even give him the Mace of Absolution he had before
nordsturmking wrote: 120p for 3 Zoanthropes add 24p and you get a Hive tyrant with rending claws. Which can also cast smite. So why would i take Zoanthropes? Am i missing something here?
Wouldnt that be 3 smites? iv been skimming rules.
No the whole unit can cast one power. If the unit has 4+ models it can cast 2 powers and smite does d3 extra dmg.
Hate to be the whiney CSM player, but after reading through everything, we really got shafted. So far we are the only faction that has to wait for a better book to gain back most of our armies. All marked units do nothing? Half my Death Guard is unusable? And I'm still gonna have to get a DG supplement, and then a CSM supplement, and then a Legions supplement just to play my army?
And i was pretty close to having them all painted up for the new edition. On the other hand, my White Scars and Orks got much better from what I can tell.
nordsturmking wrote: 120p for 3 Zoanthropes add 24p and you get a Hive tyrant with rending claws. Which can also cast smite. So why would i take Zoanthropes? Am i missing something here?
3 Zoantropes = 3 Warp Blast boosted Smites.
Even if the Tyrant had Warp Blast, it still can't cast Smite more than once a turn.
axisofentropy wrote: No, they can choose from the Space marine melee weapon list on page 11.
Damn, you're right. Now I can't even give him the Mace of Absolution he had before
But apparently I can give him a Dreadnought CC Weapon or Siege Drill? I don't see anything that states otherwise, there's even an entry for Dreadnought CC Weapon taken on models other than Dreadnoughts.
nordsturmking wrote: 120p for 3 Zoanthropes add 24p and you get a Hive tyrant with rending claws. Which can also cast smite. So why would i take Zoanthropes? Am i missing something here?
3 Zoantropes = 3 Warp Blast boosted Smites.
Even if the Tyrant had Warp Blast, it still can't cast Smite more than once a turn.
No. The wording is "A unit of Zoanthropes can attempt to manifest one psychic power in each friendly Psychic phase..."
I think peeps might be missing a trick with the synergy you can now do with daemons mixing in units as you like... shame if daemons are not your bag but i'm re-building all my chaos lists with daemon stuff in mind.
another thing i'm hitting on quick is pts
8 flesh hounds and a land raider is over 500pts... quater of your army even at 2k
amanita wrote: Which link gives a summation of terrain and its effects? I've seen some comments about how cover works but nothing really about difficult terrain or the lack thereof.
Latro_ wrote: I think peeps might be missing a trick with the synergy you can now do with daemons mixing in units as you like... shame if daemons are not your bag but i'm re-building all my chaos lists with daemon stuff in mind.
another thing i'm hitting on quick is pts
8 flesh hounds and a land raider is over 500pts... quater of your army even at 2k
i'm warming to 2.5 - 3k being the new norm
Dunno about 3k
i think it will depend on just how smoothly the game runs and or how fast things die using cover and assault.
I'm so disappointed in how the HQ's work out, especially the Eldar ones. Everyone hit's on a 2+. Everyone. How is it possible to represent skill when a Haemonculi hit's on 2's as equally as Lileth?
In fact a Haemonculi is actually better than a Succubus in combat. More attacks, a better weapon (Can take electrocorrosive whip) 5+ invul at all times, mortal wound psyker bomb. That just isn't right.
Latro_ wrote: I think peeps might be missing a trick with the synergy you can now do with daemons mixing in units as you like... shame if daemons are not your bag but i'm re-building all my chaos lists with daemon stuff in mind.
another thing i'm hitting on quick is pts
8 flesh hounds and a land raider is over 500pts... quater of your army even at 2k
i'm warming to 2.5 - 3k being the new norm
Dunno about 3k
i think it will depend on just how smoothly the game runs and or how fast things die using cover and assault.
yea actually just did a direct points swap of my 1850pt iron warriors army with 2 knights and its come to 2070pts
nordsturmking wrote: 120p for 3 Zoanthropes add 24p and you get a Hive tyrant with rending claws. Which can also cast smite. So why would i take Zoanthropes? Am i missing something here?
9 wounds with a 3++
It takes 36 Boltgun hits to kill 3 Zoanthropes. But it takes 90 Boltgun hits to kill a Hive Tyrant
It takes 10.8 Lascannon hits to kill 3 Zoanthropes. But it takes 6.4 Lascannon hits to kill a Hive Tyrant
And the hive tyrant could cast Catalyst on it self.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Hate to be the whiney CSM player, but after reading through everything, we really got shafted. So far we are the only faction that has to wait for a better book to gain back most of our armies. All marked units do nothing? Half my Death Guard is unusable? And I'm still gonna have to get a DG supplement, and then a CSM supplement, and then a Legions supplement just to play my army?
And i was pretty close to having them all painted up for the new edition. On the other hand, my White Scars and Orks got much better from what I can tell.
Other than the obligatory TAKE ITTO A NEW THREAD AND STOP CLUTTERING UP NEWS AND RUMORS ABOUT DEATH GUARD COMPLAINTS that I want to post after slogging through so many posts about it that I might as well be an honorary Death Guard for it....
Death Guard ARE coming. You are the sole bad guys of an entire campaign. This means new models, new units, and DAEMON PRIMARCH MORTY IN PLASTIC. You're hardly shafted just because the STOP GAP Index book took away some toys so that they can give you something else instead later.
Considering that Nurgle is one of the factions that GW has yet to screw up pretty much ever, you can bet that you'll be rocking hard once things drop for you.
In the mean time you can mix Death Guard and Chaos Marines with MoN just like you did before (Nurgle, Chaos, and Heretic Astartes shared keywords for allying), and get some games in. Don't chuck everything out of the pram just because you can't be 100% Death Guard Legion at launch. Things are changing and this is just a small portion of it.
amanita wrote: Which link gives a summation of terrain and its effects? I've seen some comments about how cover works but nothing really about difficult terrain or the lack thereof.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: I'm so disappointed in how the HQ's work out, especially the Eldar ones. Everyone hit's on a 2+. Everyone. How is it possible to represent skill when a Haemonculi hit's on 2's as equally as Lileth?
In fact a Haemonculi is actually better than a Succubus in combat. More attacks, a better weapon (Can take electrocorrosive whip) 5+ invul at all times, mortal wound psyker bomb. That just isn't right.
Welcome to the Dark Imperium!
Seriously though, the skill of the fighter makes it easier to hit their opponent, rather than harder for their opponent to hit them. Rules such as the Wyches' Invul Save in melee represent skill preventing damage.
This new system works fine while it also streamlines the game appropriately. I fully expect that once GW gets more feedback things will change. Maybe in the yearly update, or in the appropriate codex. Which ever drops first.
Remember, this is only the foundation of the game going forward. We still have to build the walls with codexes for the game to truly start taking shape as CT and LT start to come into play and other subfaction rules start to change the shape of army lists.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: I'm so disappointed in how the HQ's work out, especially the Eldar ones. Everyone hit's on a 2+. Everyone. How is it possible to represent skill when a Haemonculi hit's on 2's as equally as Lileth?
In fact a Haemonculi is actually better than a Succubus in combat. More attacks, a better weapon (Can take electrocorrosive whip) 5+ invul at all times, mortal wound psyker bomb. That just isn't right.
Orks have a unit that has +2 BS AND +2 WS. And it only costs 10 points!
Cower before the peerless skill of the mighty...Bomb Squig!
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: I'm so disappointed in how the HQ's work out, especially the Eldar ones. Everyone hit's on a 2+. Everyone. How is it possible to represent skill when a Haemonculi hit's on 2's as equally as Lileth?
In fact a Haemonculi is actually better than a Succubus in combat. More attacks, a better weapon (Can take electrocorrosive whip) 5+ invul at all times, mortal wound psyker bomb. That just isn't right.
Orks have a unit that has +2 BS AND +2 WS. And it only costs 10 points!
Cower before the peerless skill of the mighty...Bomb Squig!
To be fair, it IS a Squig. You just don't want to tangle with one of those.
I was a little saddened to see the Bomb Squig didn't have an option to blow up a target in melee. THAT would have been fun!
You cry over what feels like a thousand pages, but maybe you could remember that DG is getting one if not THE first codex of this edition, which might change the whole thing up again?! WE know for certain, that DG Termis are coming. There will be a box for regular Plague Marines, probably with a tone of weapons to chose from, probably allowing havoc-like loadout. So please, keep your calm and wait a month or two
They could have showed us Mortarion or the Redemptor Dreadnought - they chose the Redemptor dreadnought. That indicates to me that Codex: Primaris is likely to be the first out the door.
We don't know Death Guard Terminators are coming. We know a TYPE of Death Guard Terminator is coming. It could very well end up like the Scarab Occult where the unit has a fixed loadout and only allows to exchange for Heavy Weapons - meanwhile I have 3 squads with varying armaments that would all be technically unusable should that be the case - For all of them this is literally their 4th edition of existence.
A box for regular plague marines with weapons. Ok. That is not an indicator of Havocs though, is it? That's just an indicator of a Plague Marine kit.
I find it so very strange that several people are voicing concerns at long term, core units of an army that had been present from 3rd edition onwards are suddenly 'not available' to an army and rather than showing similar concerns people are attacking others for daring to raise them. I have never seen people so god damn complacent. You realise sighing, sitting there and just taking the gak does nothing to fix it, right? You want them to change something - you raise your voice. Like, what happened guys? Ya'll decide to just give up?
CSM players are annoyed across the board - because we have no identity once more. GW stated that there would still be Chapter Tactics/Legion Traits and outside of specific special characters there doesn't seem to be anything of the sort. For Imperials - not an issue. You still have DA, BA, SM and their variant characters, GK, LotD, SW and DW. But CSM have gone from Legions back to bland. After only 6 months of Traitor Legions. After 6 months of something we have literally been pressing for - for 3 god damned editions. Does it feel like salt in a wound? You bet your ass it does.
For me personally? It's the fact it makes zero sense. As someone else already said - I'd rather they give me X and Y til a book came out and then said X and Y are no longer permitted, buy the new shiny. Because I would at least have a few months of X and Y to get some semblance of how the army meshes. Plus, you know 'stop gap' rules. Meant to suffice til release. They're currently not even doing that.
And people are making the strangest comparison.
LEt's put this in perspective - Death Guard have lost TWO units that have been present for their entire existence for no reason. With no indication of timescale til we get replacements or equivalents.
That is not the equivalent of Salamanders losing buffed flamers. Because you still have flamers. They still function as flamers.
That is not the equivalent of Ravenwing 'losing the ability to take Swiftclaw bikers' - because you never fething did that.
That is not the equivalent of Space Wolves losing the Great company formation rules - because you had those formations for all of one edition and you can still take all the components of the formation just fine.
*Those are ALL arguments I have seen raised to counter my concern - like, WTF.
You want equivalents?
It's the equivalent of Salamanders losing Devastators.
It's the equivalent of Ravenwing losing Land Speeders.
It's the equivalent of Space Wolves losing Grey Hunters.
These are all units that have been present in your particular faction or sub-faction since its birth and give it some identity. For Death Guard? Plague Marines and Terminators have -always- been our core. But these false equivalents people keep giving...utter tripe.
And as has already been stressed - the concern is that these missing units are an indicator of them being gone for good. It makes very little sense for a temporary stop gap list to remove them altogether - because at that point...what's the point of the stop gap list?
All talk of specific armies needs to be taken to a new thread in 40k General Discussions. Most factions have threads there already. This thread is big enough without adding clutter. Further posts will result in warnings.
You guys really need to read all the rules for the Inquisition Army List. Power Sword is on the Melee Weapon List and Combi-Weapons (not Grav) are on the Ranged Weapon List.
Yes they are. And both require that you swap your chainsword for them, thus you can't have both of them at once.
Lorek wrote: All talk of specific armies needs to be taken to a new thread in 40k General Discussions. Most factions have threads there already. This thread is big enough without adding clutter. Further posts will result in warnings.
You guys really need to read all the rules for the Inquisition Army List. Power Sword is on the Melee Weapon List and Combi-Weapons (not Grav) are on the Ranged Weapon List.
Yes they are. And both require that you swap your chainsword for them, thus you can't have both of them at once.
Sisters have a similar problem. You can have combi weapons or power weapons but not both as you swap for the Bolter to get them. Pistols can only be traded for pistols.
Good thing the only Superior model that GW currently sells only has a Bolter and Icon, right?
The large increases in points for most vehicles do not please me. I think they are necessary, given the huge increase in effectiveness they got, but I'd rather have roughly their old level of power and be able to take more. I like the base troops to be stronger relative to the big stuff. Sure, you can take hordes and hordes of little guys, but that gets old for me, and I'd rather paint three tanks and 20 dudes than one tank and 100 dudes.
You guys really need to read all the rules for the Inquisition Army List. Power Sword is on the Melee Weapon List and Combi-Weapons (not Grav) are on the Ranged Weapon List.
Yes they are. And both require that you swap your chainsword for them, thus you can't have both of them at once.
Sisters have a similar problem. You can have combi weapons or power weapons but not both as you swap for the Bolter to get them. Pistols can only be traded for pistols.
Good thing the only Superior model that GW currently sells only has a Bolter and Icon, right?
Actually, this seems to be common behaviour across the board.
CSM and SM also have strange swap behaviours. Apparently combi-weapons replace both bolter and bolt pistol and only can be taken alone.
However, I am noticing that squad special/heavy weapon behaviour is funky too. CSM can take 2 heavy weapons if 10 strong (It's either/or for Special/Heavy).
Seems like no one gets to Combi-weapon/Power weapon though.
Seriously though, the skill of the fighter makes it easier to hit their opponent, rather than harder for their opponent to hit them. Rules such as the Wyches' Invul Save in melee represent skill preventing damage.
How is this even true? A Fighters skill should hugely impact how hard it is to get hit by their opponent! A Phoenix lord should never be hit by a Haemonculi on a 2+! Not every model can have a dodge special rule, but as is models just sit there one by one smacking each other without defensive manoeuvres until someone dies. No interaction between the models apart from armour saves. It takes so much away from the game when every Tom, Dick and Harry in the HQ section is equally as skilled as each other and the only difference is the weapon they wield and how many attacks they get.
Looking at the "87 points + 11 for a gun" type stuff - do you think they used a mathematical formula to come up with the point values? That would be interesting, though I prefer easier to add up values.
Nactor wrote: So the Avatar of Tzeentch can't cast Tzeentch spells ? Yeeah right. Way to go GW ... here is hoping for some change to that with an faction-battletome-of-40k-1ksons, but who am i kidding.
Gonna check with my meta about that saturday, as i am not going to play tournaments anyway.
I aim at something like pick tzeentch / heretic without roll, if mixed must roll which one. Why they did not do that for Magnus is beyond me.
Magnus is not the avatar of Tzeentch.
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Nightlord1987 wrote: Hate to be the whiney CSM player, but after reading through everything, we really got shafted. So far we are the only faction that has to wait for a better book to gain back most of our armies. All marked units do nothing? Half my Death Guard is unusable? And I'm still gonna have to get a DG supplement, and then a CSM supplement, and then a Legions supplement just to play my army?
And i was pretty close to having them all painted up for the new edition. On the other hand, my White Scars and Orks got much better from what I can tell.
I'm pretty sure there will be no "CSM". We'll have Thousand Sons, Death Guard, Emperor's Children, World Eaters, and Black Legion. Once you get the DG book you're done.
You guys really need to read all the rules for the Inquisition Army List. Power Sword is on the Melee Weapon List and Combi-Weapons (not Grav) are on the Ranged Weapon List.
Yes they are. And both require that you swap your chainsword for them, thus you can't have both of them at once.
Sisters have a similar problem. You can have combi weapons or power weapons but not both as you swap for the Bolter to get them. Pistols can only be traded for pistols.
Good thing the only Superior model that GW currently sells only has a Bolter and Icon, right?
Actually, this seems to be common behaviour across the board.
CSM and SM also have strange swap behaviours. Apparently combi-weapons replace both bolter and bolt pistol and only can be taken alone.
However, I am noticing that squad special/heavy weapon behaviour is funky too. CSM can take 2 heavy weapons if 10 strong (It's either/or for Special/Heavy).
Seems like no one gets to Combi-weapon/Power weapon though.
Considering most kits spoort such a build it looks like they want us to choose is a model is going ranged or melee as it,s focus, not mixing both.
oni wrote: Wait... So if I move one model out of the woods the unit loses cover, but if I put one model in ruins the unit gains cover? WTF?
What? The rules are literally the same for both. Units on the base of either gain cover, other units only gain cover if at least 50% of every model is obscured from the point of view of the firing unit. They are worded exactly the same.
Seriously though, the skill of the fighter makes it easier to hit their opponent, rather than harder for their opponent to hit them. Rules such as the Wyches' Invul Save in melee represent skill preventing damage.
How is this even true? A Fighters skill should hugely impact how hard it is to get hit by their opponent! A Phoenix lord should never be hit by a Haemonculi on a 2+! Not every model can have a dodge special rule, but as is models just sit there one by one smacking each other without defensive manoeuvres until someone dies. No interaction between the models apart from armour saves. It takes so much away from the game when every Tom, Dick and Harry in the HQ section is equally as skilled as each other and the only difference is the weapon they wield and how many attacks they get.
This is the price for balance. You can't cost things when you don't know how much damage they do without having to model it against each and every opponent.
oni wrote: Wait... So if I move one model out of the woods the unit loses cover, but if I put one model in ruins the unit gains cover? WTF?
What? The rules are literally the same for both. Units on the base of either gain cover, other units only gain cover if at least 50% of every model is obscured from the point of view of the firing unit. They are worded exactly the same.
No they are not. The woods rules say the infantry unit must be 'entirely' in the woods to get cover. The ruins rules simply say the unit must be 'on' the ruin. Without the word 'entirely' it would generally be understood that as long as one model is on the ruin, the entire infantry unit would get cover.
It just need to be FAQ'd, but its sad to see something so simple (on the same page) slip past already.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Hate to be the whiney CSM player, but after reading through everything, we really got shafted. So far we are the only faction that has to wait for a better book to gain back most of our armies. All marked units do nothing? Half my Death Guard is unusable? And I'm still gonna have to get a DG supplement, and then a CSM supplement, and then a Legions supplement just to play my army?
And i was pretty close to having them all painted up for the new edition. On the other hand, my White Scars and Orks got much better from what I can tell.
You are not even close to the only one. Tau have no farsight enclaves, no marines have any chapter tactics, no one has relics, etc.
Patience - gw has said all of that will come in the upcoming codex releases.
The restrictions on the Death Guard units aren't the biggest problem, I was just gonna have them be Marked Black Legion or some such instead. But the fact that all marks are just a color scheme now too, that is what makes Chaos the only faction that actually cant play right from the get go. I'm definitely over 7th and stopped playing. but now I cant play 8th either?
Nvs wrote: Any word if any new background came along with these new index books? Anything beyond the leaked Baal piece?
there's only a page or two for each faction, but some of them do advance the narrative a bit and hint at further developments
Any chance of getting a quick summary of anything new that wasn't mentioned or goes into greater detail than the faction focuses?
If not for everything, I would appreciate anything regarding Tau developments.
those fluff pages themselves are very quick http://mystecore.imgur.com/ but unfortunately this leak did not photograph every page, so I don't think we've seen Tau fluff yet. Something to look forward too!
Are ablative wound models that used to be counters going to be a thing now? Just looking at Nobz and their 1 ammo runt per nob.
They are now models apparently that can fight (although poorly in the case of the ammo runt) and seem to count towards mob rule (since they are models) but don't count towards losing models for morale. I don't see anything that says they can't be chosen to take the first 10 hits either. So basically 4 point gretchin shields against whatever shoots at nobs until they are gone?
Any other units like that for other armies?
Seems flash gitz get them also. They will get more use from their normal function though. Unless gretchin shield is considered normal... I spose it would be...
Frothmog wrote: Are ablative wound models that used to be counters going to be a thing now? Just looking at Nobz and their 1 ammo runt per nob.
They are now models apparently that can fight (although poorly in the case of the ammo runt) and seem to count towards mob rule (since they are models) but don't count towards losing models for morale. I don't see anything that says they can't be chosen to take the first 10 hits either. So basically 4 point gretchin shields against whatever shoots at nobs until they are gone?
Any other units like that for other armies?
Seems flash gitz get them also. They will get more use from their normal function though. Unless gretchin shield is considered normal... I spose it would be...
yes, watchers in the dark for deathwing and amorium cherubs for devastators actually have a profile!
Nightlord1987 wrote: The restrictions on the Death Guard units aren't the biggest problem, I was just gonna have them be Marked Black Legion or some such instead. But the fact that all marks are just a color scheme now too, that is what makes Chaos the only faction that actually cant play right from the get go. I'm definitely over 7th and stopped playing. but now I cant play 8th either?
Chapter tactics were comparable to Legion traits. We lost two key things, not just one. I can still use all the models in my White scars army, albeit without any flavor.
My whole Death Guard army are now just dirty marines right from the get go.
I repeat, it is not just the lack of Legion rules. Yes, i know those will come later. Its the lack of any Marks.
Nightlord1987 wrote: The restrictions on the Death Guard units aren't the biggest problem, I was just gonna have them be Marked Black Legion or some such instead. But the fact that all marks are just a color scheme now too, that is what makes Chaos the only faction that actually cant play right from the get go. I'm definitely over 7th and stopped playing. but now I cant play 8th either?
Rant over.
Space Marines are by and large just color schemes and special characters too. Just like how every other army is.
Special rules come later, right now we have a balanced start, and even if it feels generic that,s fine because it means more time soent testing and balancing how the Chapter Tactics and similar rules will work.
We're all in the same boat at the moment, so it's basically gaining you no sympathy to be complaining about losing Legion Tactics for a little while.
ESPECIALLY if you play Death Guard as you will likely see your legion updated before anyone else's is.
I'm overjoyed by the overemotional player reactions
The more people upset that their power creep meta house of cards shatters, the better
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44Ronin wrote: I'm overjoyed by the overemotional player reactions
The more people upset that their power creep meta house of cards shatters, the better
To expand on what I'm saying, ... I'd like to see more interesting armies with interesting lists rather than ctrl+c+ctrl+v netlists that farm the most powerful choices and are designed for buff stacking nonsense.
Looking at some of the leaks, Inquisitorial Agents got...well strange. 1-6 models in a unit and being able to take a mortal wound for their Inquisitor's protection is fine, but 8ppm with 3 wounds just seems...well strange. Is the Inquisitor suddenly employing cognitively enhanced Ogryn or something?
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Crablezworth wrote: Throwing out weapon arcs for vehicles is going to have terrible consequences on the game.
Works fine on MCs.
Also probably a large part of the reason many of them doubled or tripled in points...
Crablezworth wrote: Throwing out weapon arcs for vehicles is going to have terrible consequences on the game.
Wow I hadn't even considered that. So the hull-mounted weapon on a Russ can fire backwards. The sponsons on a Land Raider can fire through the Land Raider to the other side.
That is so stupid...
Not having 'Vehicle Rules' other than a keyword is awful. It is the epitome of dumbing down rules.
Crablezworth wrote: Throwing out weapon arcs for vehicles is going to have terrible consequences on the game.
Wow I hadn't even considered that. So the hull-mounted weapon on a Russ can fire backwards. The sponsons on a Land Raider can fire through the Land Raider to the other side.
That is so stupid...
Not having 'Vehicle Rules' other than a keyword is awful. It is the epitome of dumbing down rules.
A Hive Tyrant can fire it's Devourer out of its butt.
Yes of course that's not what actually happens, but that's the same level of complaint.
to their profile!
