We can also see the bottom half or more of the #5 power, can anyone confirm if it's the same as the SM equivalent?

Roknar wrote:
Yea but that's not really any different to a normal termicide deep strike. At least not enough to make me go out of my way to buy 3 units plus a lord.

Ability to bypass interceptor, pepper guys inside and/or run before AP2 templates fall is different though.

Albeit not megahot but at least don't start dismissing formation because bolters arent' going to bust many vehicles Presumably nobody tries that except in super rare situations.

Have Traitor's Hate in hand, ask away.

Things I can confirm:
* No option for taking Kharn in Khorne Demonkin
* No points change for Lord of Skulls
* Renegade Knight rules are as-is from the previous rules in the Renegade Knight box, including the Forsworn Knight Detachment
* No Renegade Knight relics or additional formations
* Psychic Powers are, as far as I can see, exactly the same as the Angels of Death powers just renamed.

 GoonBandito wrote:
Have Traitor's Hate in hand, ask away.

Things I can confirm:
* No option for taking Kharn in Khorne Demonkin
* No points change for Lord of Skulls
* Renegade Knight rules are as-is from the previous rules in the Renegade Knight box, including the Forsworn Knight Detachment
* No Renegade Knight relics or additional formations
* Psychic Powers are, as far as I can see, exactly the same as the Angels of Death powers just renamed.

Is it the book that makes chaos fun and interesting again?

 GoonBandito wrote:
Have Traitor's Hate in hand, ask away.

Things I can confirm:
* No option for taking Kharn in Khorne Demonkin
* No points change for Lord of Skulls
* Renegade Knight rules are as-is from the previous rules in the Renegade Knight box, including the Forsworn Knight Detachment
* No Renegade Knight relics or additional formations
* Psychic Powers are, as far as I can see, exactly the same as the Angels of Death powers just renamed.

Did anything change between Kharn's datasheet between his CSM Codex datasheet and his datasheet in Traitor's Hate?

Joyboozer wrote:
Is it the book that makes chaos fun and interesting again?

It features the exploits of everyone's favourite Chaos character - Lord Kranon!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Did anything change between Kharn's datasheet between his CSM Codex datasheet and his datasheet in Traitor's Hate?

Kharn always hitting on a 2+ is now a rule he has called Unstoppable, rather than being a special rule applied to Gorechild. That's the only difference I can see.

Joyboozer wrote:

 GoonBandito wrote:
Have Traitor's Hate in hand, ask away.

Some new relics / warlord trait's / tactical objectives ?

So there is no that psychic power? Atia was wrong?

Thanks for answering questions, GoonBandito

So twice the same (shooting) weapon is still possible with Renegade Knights? They did not bring them back in line with Imperial Knights?

What happened to the knight relics gw said were in the book?

On another note this black crusade series is supposedly 6 books. Has this been verified? Assuming it is 6 books, is that 3 chaos and 3 imperial?

 GoonBandito wrote:
Have Traitor's Hate in hand, ask away.

Things I can confirm:
* No option for taking Kharn in Khorne Demonkin
* No points change for Lord of Skulls
* Renegade Knight rules are as-is from the previous rules in the Renegade Knight box, including the Forsworn Knight Detachment
* No Renegade Knight relics or additional formations
* Psychic Powers are, as far as I can see, exactly the same as the Angels of Death powers just renamed.

Thanks for the info!!

Who can exactly use the new powers? ( sorcerers or any psychic from chaos faction or any psychic from chaos space marine codex?


Thanks!!!

This is actually not from Atia but a Natfka source, that's why she posted a screenshot of the text which was re-posted on B&C.

 Omega-soul wrote:

Joyboozer wrote:

 GoonBandito wrote:
Have Traitor's Hate in hand, ask away.

Some new relics / warlord trait's / tactical objectives ?

So there is no that psychic power? Atia was wrong?

Spoiler:

No relics, and that AP3 Gets Hot Psychic Power doesn't exist

There are 6 new Tactical Objectives:
* 1VP for destroying an enemy unit during your turn
* 1VP for manifesting a psychic power
* roll a die when you draw the card, and if you control the objective matching the die you score 1VP
* 1VP for rolling on the Boon table. D3 VPs if you roll 3 times
* D3 VPs for controlling an objective that your opponent controlled at the start of your turn
* 1VP if your warlord got Unworthy Offering or Spawnhood. D3+3 if he got Apotheosis, or D3 if he got any other result.

Oh no you only got some of the most over powered psychic powers in existence. Some of which have been nerfed by the ITC and maybe one that was banned (I forget). Also on topic hastings has claimed to name the primarchs who are coming out. “Looks good, I’m looking forward to seeing Magnus, Angron, Mortarion, Russ & Guilliman now ”

I know there are people just waiting to complain. I see you. Look into my digital eye.

zamerion wrote:

 GoonBandito wrote:
Have Traitor's Hate in hand, ask away.

Things I can confirm:
* No option for taking Kharn in Khorne Demonkin
* No points change for Lord of Skulls
* Renegade Knight rules are as-is from the previous rules in the Renegade Knight box, including the Forsworn Knight Detachment
* No Renegade Knight relics or additional formations
* Psychic Powers are, as far as I can see, exactly the same as the Angels of Death powers just renamed.

Thanks for the info!!

Who can exactly use the new powers? ( sorcerers or any psychic from chaos faction or any psychic from chaos space marine codex?


Thanks!!!

Sorcerers: Any Psyker with the Chaos Space Marines Faction can generate the psychic powers from the Sinistrum, Heretech, Ectomancy and Geomortis disciplines, in addition to any other disciplines they have access to.

Warhams-77 wrote:
This is actually not from Atia but a Natfka source, that's why she posted a screenshot of the text which was re-posted on B&C.

Oh well - I didn't seen Natfka one and post in her blog was only

"hello everyone !

Got this from atia, via dakka dakka

/cheers.
bob."

So maybe it's not her personal info but it sounded like it although i have nothing against just clarification.

 Motograter wrote:
What happened to the knight relics gw said were in the book?

GW never said that, people misread and/or assumed. What GW actually said was "full rules for fielding Renegade Knights in games of Warhammer 40,000, including Wargear of the Fallen Households." 'Wargear of the Fallen Households' is just a page listing the rules for the Avenger Gattling Cannon, Stormspear Missile Pod, Thunderstrike Gauntlet, Ion Shield etc as is from Codex: Imperial Knights.

No worries, Omega-soul. It could have been Natfka, Dakka, War of Sigmar. The info was wrong though, correct.

At least they kept the Renegade Knights rules the same it seems.

Any direct mention of using the Black Legion or Crimson Slaughter supplements with the detachment/formations in this book?

Anything else of note that wasn't covered in the leaks? (Don't think so based on your summary but thought it worth asking)

 GoonBandito wrote:

* Psychic Powers are, as far as I can see, exactly the same as the Angels of Death powers just renamed.

lol

Does the "Veterans of the Legions" Aux Formation really get no bonuses?

 Voodoo_Chile wrote:
Any direct mention of using the Black Legion or Crimson Slaughter supplements with the detachment/formations in this book?

Anything else of note that wasn't covered in the leaks? (Don't think so based on your summary but thought it worth asking)

Nope, those leaks earlier in the week were of everything but the Renegade Knight (which is the same as the dataslates from the Renegade Knight Boxset), the Psychic Powers (which are the same as the Angels of Death powers, just renamed) and the 6 new Tactical Objectives. A Dataslate for the Lord of Skulls and its wargear is in the book too, but it is unchanged from Escalation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SicSemperTyrannis wrote:
Does the "Veterans of the Legions" Aux Formation really get no bonuses?

"Veterans of the Legions" and "Spawn" are simply Auxiliary Choices for the Black Crusade Detachment. They'll get the Black Crusade bonuses (Hatred Imperium, Free VotLW, one character in the detachment gets a Free Boon per turn) but thats it.

 silverstu wrote:

Warhams-77 wrote:
Plastic Custodes models will be in the next HH boardgame according to Sad Panda. Sisters of Silence as well. That 'Guilliman storyline' getting a comment from Hastings though, is new info

Automatically Appended Next Post:
A Deathguard-focused campaign book, maybe? Like in End Times with several plastic kits? Blight drones, Plague Marines and Mortarion?

Yeah- Custodes in the next boardgame, returning Primarchs- it makes sense for a Custodes army to head the counter crusade and plus it gives GW the new "elite marine" range to push- sets the tone to almost Heresy levels. I hope the xenos up their games in some way as well- a new evolution of Tyranids, new Tau advances, ancient tech employed by the older races [eldar/necrons] and bigger, badder orks.
The plague army- plague zombies with cult options from the Plague guard could be quite likely- maybe dedicated daemon engines?

Custodes would work well as an army in the 40k setting, I hope they will do this - at least like they made Cataphractii armour available in 40k via datasheets.

Regarding a Khorne model update, that wasnt rumored by reliable sources and Berzerkers are an old kit but a plastic one at least. Not that it wouldnt need an update - like a lot of the range.

But if they will bring out a new range of RT-style, baroque basic CSM, why do new Berzerkers now? I built my Black Legion 'CCW squad' with Berzerker legs, and my World Eaters with CSM weapons. They are pretty much compatible, like the new Kharn and the Dark Vengeance Chosen are style-wise already. If they update the basic kit, Berzerkers/Khorne Marines/World Eaters could be done with just a different sprue of weapons, shoulder pads and helmets.

Nurgle though lacks Plague Marines. They do not even have a basic kit in plastic. Same with Thousand Sons who we know from reliable sources will get a plastic update. So it could be GW will do Khorne justice but they will get theirs via CSM.

Warhams-77 wrote:

 silverstu wrote:

Warhams-77 wrote:
Plastic Custodes models will be in the next HH boardgame according to Sad Panda. Sisters of Silence as well. That 'Guilliman storyline' getting a comment from Hastings though, is new info

Automatically Appended Next Post:
A Deathguard-focused campaign book, maybe? Like in End Times with several plastic kits? Blight drones, Plague Marines and Mortarion?

Yeah- Custodes in the next boardgame, returning Primarchs- it makes sense for a Custodes army to head the counter crusade and plus it gives GW the new "elite marine" range to push- sets the tone to almost Heresy levels. I hope the xenos up their games in some way as well- a new evolution of Tyranids, new Tau advances, ancient tech employed by the older races [eldar/necrons] and bigger, badder orks.
The plague army- plague zombies with cult options from the Plague guard could be quite likely- maybe dedicated daemon engines?

Custodes would work well as an army in the 40k setting, I hope they will do this - at least like they made Cataphractii armour available in 40k via datasheets.

Regarding a Khorne model update, that wasnt rumored by reliable sources and Berzerkers are an old kit but a plastic one at least. Not that it wouldnt need an update - like a lot of the range.

But if they will bring out a new range of RT-style, baroque basic CSM, why do new Berzerkers now? I built my Black Legion 'CCW squad' with Berzerker legs, and my World Eaters with CSM weapons. They are pretty much compatible, like the new Kharn and the Dark Vengeance Chosen are style-wise already. If they update the basic kit, Berzerkers/Khorne Marines/World Eaters could be done with just a different sprue of weapons, shoulder pads and helmets.

Nurgle though lacks Plague Marines. They do not even have a basic kit in plastic. Same with Thousand Sons who we know from reliable sources will get a plastic update. So it could be GW will do Khorne justice but they will get theirs via CSM.

Cos having plastic kits stopped gw redoing all the imperial marines oh......
Setting aside dark vengeance box, helbrute's, dinobots and raptors the entire chaos range needs a total start over. New berzerkers could have come out with Khârn to make them look like they actually belong together.

They could just update the csm box to start and do what they did with marines by giving little clampack upgrade sprues. For example khorne- heads, shoulder pads, front torso, power axe, chain axes.

Slaanesh- heads, sonic weapons, pads, torso, backpacks so on and so on. Problem solved

I would have loved it, if they did, too. But like I said. It wasnt the right time to do so, maybe?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thanks, GoonBandito

 Motograter wrote:

Warhams-77 wrote:

 silverstu wrote:

Warhams-77 wrote:
Plastic Custodes models will be in the next HH boardgame according to Sad Panda. Sisters of Silence as well. That 'Guilliman storyline' getting a comment from Hastings though, is new info

Automatically Appended Next Post:
A Deathguard-focused campaign book, maybe? Like in End Times with several plastic kits? Blight drones, Plague Marines and Mortarion?

Yeah- Custodes in the next boardgame, returning Primarchs- it makes sense for a Custodes army to head the counter crusade and plus it gives GW the new "elite marine" range to push- sets the tone to almost Heresy levels. I hope the xenos up their games in some way as well- a new evolution of Tyranids, new Tau advances, ancient tech employed by the older races [eldar/necrons] and bigger, badder orks.
The plague army- plague zombies with cult options from the Plague guard could be quite likely- maybe dedicated daemon engines?

Custodes would work well as an army in the 40k setting, I hope they will do this - at least like they made Cataphractii armour available in 40k via datasheets.

Regarding a Khorne model update, that wasnt rumored by reliable sources and Berzerkers are an old kit but a plastic one at least. Not that it wouldnt need an update - like a lot of the range.

But if they will bring out a new range of RT-style, baroque basic CSM, why do new Berzerkers now? I built my Black Legion 'CCW squad' with Berzerker legs, and my World Eaters with CSM weapons. They are pretty much compatible, like the new Kharn and the Dark Vengeance Chosen are style-wise already. If they update the basic kit, Berzerkers/Khorne Marines/World Eaters could be done with just a different sprue of weapons, shoulder pads and helmets.

Nurgle though lacks Plague Marines. They do not even have a basic kit in plastic. Same with Thousand Sons who we know from reliable sources will get a plastic update. So it could be GW will do Khorne justice but they will get theirs via CSM.

Cos having plastic kits stopped gw redoing all the imperial marines oh......
Setting aside dark vengeance box, helbrute's, dinobots and raptors the entire chaos range needs a total start over. New berzerkers could have come out with Khârn to make them look like they actually belong together.

They could just update the csm box to start and do what they did with marines by giving little clampack upgrade sprues. For example khorne- heads, shoulder pads, front torso, power axe, chain axes.

Slaanesh- heads, sonic weapons, pads, torso, backpacks so on and so on. Problem solved

So you'd get 10 world eater (or khorne) marked pads, a Khorne Berserker helmet, a bare head, a daemon axe, a chain axe, and a front torso.

For the slaanesh marines, you'd get ten Slaanesh marked pads, a sonic weapon, a daemon sabre of some kind, a noise marine helmet, a noise marine bare head, and a front torso, >.>

They could use the 'Baroque Trader-style' CAD files and create two or three 'unique' Berzerker sprues with lots of Khorne bits added to it, they could go for a starter set or a boxed game with multipart sprues first and a regular release later. There are a lot of possibilities. GW tends to prefer 'look, new shiny"-releases and offering updated 'Zerkers now could (from the perspective of GW marketing madness) have taken steam away from the new Vanilla CSM wave. Again, not that I think it is good to keep selling the old kit, but I imagine that is what GW is doing and why.

Warhams-77 wrote:
They could use the 'Baroque Trader-style' CAD files and create two or three 'unique' Berzerker sprues with lots of Khorne bits added to it, they could go for a starter set or a boxed game with multipart sprues first and a regular release later. There are a lot of possibilities. GW tends to prefer 'look, new shiny"-releases and offering updated 'Zerkers now could (from the perspective of GW marketing madness) have taken steam away from the new Vanilla CSM wave. Again, not that I think it is good to keep selling the old kit, but I imagine that is what GW is doing and why.

Why would it take away from it? Its just a book and rehashed psychic powers plus the khorne formation in the book with new Khârn screams for a release. Updated Khârn is ok and all but they could have given chaos releases that they desperately need instead of one single character. Its just lazy. I am hoping that chaos will get updated and updated soon, not just codex but the models too.

A generic csm squad with clam packs for the original legions would fly off the shelves. It also saves space so gw wouldn't need 6 million boxes like they do with imperial marines. Then plastic havcs, chosen, cultists, oblit/ mutilators. Updated terminators, new sorcerer, new lord. Maybe update the bikes buf its not essential. All these releases they could spread out across a few months then drop the new dex with brand new daemon engines, vehicles, pods etc. Have the ground work basic force updated then slam out the dark mech stuff along with the book and a redo of Abaddon.

It would cause frenzy for folks wanting to get into chaos and for folks like myself who've been playing chaos for 20+ years

Summary of the Traitor's Hate fluff if anyone is interested: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/701869.page

I'm just glad we didn't get the worst powers of Angels of Death copied over, and then terrible new Chaos version to replace the good ones. I was honestly expecting us to get something worse.

What about a Tzeentch Cabal with Sigils & Veil of Time, zooming around on discs with 3++ rerollable. Chuck in a Force Axe or two and with Might of Heroes + Force you'll be butchering face. -Just a bugger you'll be forced to lose one of your rolls for taking MoT.

I wanna make sure I'm not losing my mind. My understanding is no new relics, and not useable with Black Legion, so can't use their relics. In other words vanilla relics only?

I really want to run the Kytan in the Trinity of Blood.

Gerinako wrote:
I really want to run the Kytan in the Trinity of Blood.

This sounds like it can be a semi competitve build however wallets will cry from the beating they will recieve. Would be nice if you could fit a cabal with 3 khytans.

gungo wrote:

Gerinako wrote:
I really want to run the Kytan in the Trinity of Blood.

This sounds like it can be a semi competitve build however wallets will cry from the beating they will recieve. Would be nice if you could fit a cabal with 3 khytans.

I'm literally just speccing that up

3 Kytans only leave 275 points

3 Sorcerers leaves only 115 for upgrades.

Trying to work out what to prioritise
Do I go bikes for the save and the movement or do I find a ruin and hide? Decisions!
Or do I even bother...!

Gerinako wrote:

gungo wrote:

Gerinako wrote:
I really want to run the Kytan in the Trinity of Blood.

This sounds like it can be a semi competitve build however wallets will cry from the beating they will recieve. Would be nice if you could fit a cabal with 3 khytans.

I'm literally just speccing that up

3 Kytans only leave 275 points

3 Sorcerers leaves only 115 for upgrades.

Trying to work out what to prioritise
Do I go bikes for the save and the movement or do I find a ruin and hide? Decisions!
Or do I even bother...!

Might want to try to go all in on summoning cabal to get some objective grabbers. The meta kinda builds toward dealing with Bike spam right now.

art from the book, via the FB page :

Yeah, that ought to end well for Daenor.

Warhams-77 wrote:
This is actually not from Atia but a Natfka source, that's why she posted a screenshot of the text which was re-posted on B&C.

It wasn't even Natfka:

via aracerssx, originally from 4chan;
Well, saw the Traitor's Hate stuff and talked about it to the redshirt. Supposedly it has datasheets for all renegade knight patterns seperatly instead of the single one from the box, i.e. Warden, Crusader and so on. Dedications are in.
Kharn will get a new datasheet, but will mostly stay the same except for one change. Maybe the rumored Eternal Warrior, the guy refused to clarify that. He can be taken in CSM and KDK.
Black Legion meta formation is the usual decurion stuff. Several formations combine daemons and CSM. It's all about BL and CS, so no stuff for other legions.
The psychic disciplines are not god-specific and availiable to all psykers.

Names of the new heretic Psychic Disciplines.
Ectomancy (mmm, Ecto Cooler)
Geomortis
Sinisturm
Heretech

Rumored Heretech power:

Howl of the Warp
Warp Charge 2

Blessing targeting a friendly unit within 18"

Unit's ranged weapons become AP3, Gets Hot

I like the BA chaplain’s mini, but that art is not doing him any favors.

And yah, that’s not going to end well for him. IMHO the only safe way to deal with Kharn is a high speed strafing run.

 redleger wrote:
I wanna make sure I'm not losing my mind. My understanding is no new relics, and not useable with Black Legion, so can't use their relics. In other words vanilla relics only?

Why can't it be Black Legion?

Do we know if the Blood Angels Ancients bundle (3x furioso) offer any discounts?

thanks

 RedFox wrote:
Do we know if the Blood Angels Ancients bundle (3x furioso) offer any discounts?

thanks

according to rumors it costs 65£ with an retail of 84£ so looks like you save 19£

The Blood Angel stuff should probably get its own thread but i'm too lazy to keep the OP updated.

 Nevelon wrote:
I like the BA chaplain’s mini, but that art is not doing him any favors.

And yah, that’s not going to end well for him. IMHO the only safe way to deal with Kharn is a high speed strafing run.

I don't know the rules for this named chaplain but he actually have some chances on charge (and it's more likely with jump-pack) - first of all - a great chance to instakill kharn with inferno pistol - he is only 5++
second - Kharn in defence have 6 attacks - most likley - 5 wounds - 4++ on chaplain and 5+ FNP so it's about 2 wound (I assume that named chaplain as reclusiarchs would have 3 wounds). And in return - it's something like 6 attacks - 3 hits(reroll) 4-5 hits - 4 wounds - 1-2 can make through armour - next round chappie hits first because of concussive.

Curious question.

Can the Librarian Dread IC, join other units of Dreads ex. Furioso? And from there, could another subsequent Ic join that?

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Curious question.

Can the Librarian Dread IC, join other units of Dreads ex. Furioso? And from there, could another subsequent Ic join that?

There is no Independent character vehicle in game.

Makes sense.

I'm not familiar with Blood Angels, but Librarian Dreads as HQ options made things sound interesting.

Will the new chaos tactical objective cards be available outside the special edition?

I've seen the book and psychic decks up for preorder separately but not the TO cards.

 GoonBandito wrote:

There are 6 new Tactical Objectives:
* 1VP for destroying an enemy unit during your turn
* 1VP for manifesting a psychic power
* roll a die when you draw the card, and if you control the objective matching the die you score 1VP
* 1VP for rolling on the Boon table. D3 VPs if you roll 3 times
* D3 VPs for controlling an objective that your opponent controlled at the start of your turn
* 1VP if your warlord got Unworthy Offering or Spawnhood. D3+3 if he got Apotheosis, or D3 if he got any other result.

Would you be able to give me the names of those objectives?

 CT GAMER wrote:
Will the new chaos tactical objective cards be available outside the special edition?

I've seen the book and psychic decks up for preorder separately but not the TO cards.

I was wondering this as well, and it does not appear so. figures.

Ok, where are those Damned psychic powers? People can take pictures of one of them. People have been posting pictures of the new Kharn model standing on top of the book. People have written full, in depth summaries of the fluff. How do we not yet have confirmation on the new powers, and whether they're all the same as or different from the CSM ones?

 SirDigby wrote:
I'm just glad we didn't get the worst powers of Angels of Death copied over, and then terrible new Chaos version to replace the good ones. I was honestly expecting us to get something worse.

What about a Tzeentch Cabal with Sigils & Veil of Time, zooming around on discs with 3++ rerollable. Chuck in a Force Axe or two and with Might of Heroes + Force you'll be butchering face. -Just a bugger you'll be forced to lose one of your rolls for taking MoT.

How about undivided cabal in a small unit of slaanesh bikers with icon of excess for 4+ re-rollable invulnerable, and feel no pain ?

Earlier, we showed you a piece of artwork from Traitor’s Hate where Khârn battles a Death Company Chaplain of the Blood Angels. Half of that image, as you know, is the cover of Traitor’s Hate. We can now let you know that the other half is the cover of it’s opposite, Angel’s Blade, which tells the tale of the same brutal opening battles of the 13th Black Crusade, but from the Imperial perspective.

Like Traitor’s Hate, there are lots of new rules in there, but this time for the sons of Sanguinius, including Formations, Detachments, Vehicle Squadrons, updated Datasheets and some particularly cool rules for Death Company fans…

You can pre-order this book very soon.

I bet they don't get cool new rules giving them Hatred forces of chaos.

 redleger wrote:
I bet they don't get cool new rules giving them Hatred forces of chaos.

Goodness, the horror! That would be quite the useless trait, considering you won't ever see Chaos on the table anyway!

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 redleger wrote:
I bet they don't get cool new rules giving them Hatred forces of chaos.

Goodness, the horror! That would be quite the useless trait, considering you won't ever see Chaos on the table anyway!

all sarcasm aside, you see less Chaos then you do Imperium. My point being though I doubt they would give them a rule that is entirely situational and useless unless you are only fighting certain factions.

 redleger wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 redleger wrote:
I bet they don't get cool new rules giving them Hatred forces of chaos.

Goodness, the horror! That would be quite the useless trait, considering you won't ever see Chaos on the table anyway!

all sarcasm aside, you see less Chaos then you do Imperium. My point being though I doubt they would give them a rule that is entirely situational and useless unless you are only fighting certain factions.

To be fair, Daemons are actually seen on the table occasionally. But, GW does seem to be shying away from rules that are rarely useful, as seen in Deathwatch where they lack any rules that only affect Xenos. The new CSM decurion does have hatred Imperium, but thats a common enough faction for me to not be upset.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 redleger wrote:
I wanna make sure I'm not losing my mind. My understanding is no new relics, and not useable with Black Legion, so can't use their relics. In other words vanilla relics only?

Why can't it be Black Legion?

Im not 100% sure on this, but since this is a suppliment and not a codex, unless the suppliment specifically says may take from x codex/suppliment, then the suppliment then only refers back to the vanilla codex for relics right? I mean most suppliments have their own relics, but apparently this one does not, so how does this interact with the rest of the CSM stuff?

I am confused. Are there not new relics for CSM or the Knight? This is a supplement with new formations and tactical objectives, but not even relics for the CSM? Even though Angels of Death had multiple sets of new relics for SM? And Imperials have lots of variants / relics / formations for all their Knights?

Incredible middle finger to Chaos from GW if that's true. Though I guess that would be par for the course. I guess with psychic powers we lucked out at least getting the copy rather than less and/or worse versions as apparently we do with most other things.

WTB Space Marine formations and relics...

 redleger wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 redleger wrote:
I wanna make sure I'm not losing my mind. My understanding is no new relics, and not useable with Black Legion, so can't use their relics. In other words vanilla relics only?

Why can't it be Black Legion?

Im not 100% sure on this, but since this is a suppliment and not a codex, unless the suppliment specifically says may take from x codex/suppliment, then the suppliment then only refers back to the vanilla codex for relics right? I mean most suppliments have their own relics, but apparently this one does not, so how does this interact with the rest of the CSM stuff?

With regards to the formations at least the BL and CS books allow you to take any CSM formation as BL/CS. So unless something in this book specifically prohibits that should be good. Can't speak to relics or anything else.

Above are scans of the new CSM powers. They are all identical in function to the SM versions.

Still nothing to fix the fact that Marked Sorcerers are garbage compared to Unmarked.

 GoonBandito wrote:
Summary of the Traitor's Hate fluff if anyone is interested: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/701869.page

Thanks.

Requizen wrote:
Still nothing to fix the fact that Marked Sorcerers are garbage compared to Unmarked.

So don't mark them? I'd never do that from the get-go as that messes with sticking with a single discipline anyway.

Haha, they were so lazy with the cut and paste that the one that gives Power of the Machine spirit says "if a model already has the rule, then bs goes up by 1". Silly GW, it's chaos we don't got no POTMS.

Saw this on Facebook and was wondering if anyone here had seen it or knows anything about it?

bogalubov wrote:
Haha, they were so lazy with the cut and paste that the one that gives Power of the Machine spirit says "if a model already has the rule, then bs goes up by 1". Silly GW, it's chaos we don't got no POTMS.

That's not a mistake, that's contingent planning. Something they don't do very often and upsets people with bad reading comprehension.

 Breotan wrote:
Saw this on Facebook and was wondering if anyone here had seen it or knows anything about it?

Spoiler:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/699906.page#8883984

 DarknessEternal wrote:

bogalubov wrote:
Haha, they were so lazy with the cut and paste that the one that gives Power of the Machine spirit says "if a model already has the rule, then bs goes up by 1". Silly GW, it's chaos we don't got no POTMS.

That's not a mistake, that's contingent planning. Something they don't do very often and upsets people with bad reading comprehension.

Mmmh...riiiiight.

You could hit the same vehicle with it twice from 2 different sorceres, POTMS and +1 BS


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fhionnuisce wrote:

 redleger wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 redleger wrote:
I wanna make sure I'm not losing my mind. My understanding is no new relics, and not useable with Black Legion, so can't use their relics. In other words vanilla relics only?

Why can't it be Black Legion?

Im not 100% sure on this, but since this is a suppliment and not a codex, unless the suppliment specifically says may take from x codex/suppliment, then the suppliment then only refers back to the vanilla codex for relics right? I mean most suppliments have their own relics, but apparently this one does not, so how does this interact with the rest of the CSM stuff?

With regards to the formations at least the BL and CS books allow you to take any CSM formation as BL/CS. So unless something in this book specifically prohibits that should be good. Can't speak to relics or anything else.

and I am sure that is how it works, but the exception is relics. BL and CS relics are not CSM relics per se. There is written permission to use either or in the suppliment. AS BL for example, you can't use CS relics and vice versa. So with that being said, is there anything permissive in this suppliment that allows CS, BL or CSM relics to be used?

 redleger wrote:
You could hit the same vehicle with it twice from 2 different sorceres, POTMS and +1 BS

That's almost as good as using 3 lord of skulls just to get some terrible formation ability. So.. 2 sorcerers + a bad CSM vehicle just to give it a mediocre special rule and an additional BS with subpar weapons. Hm.

didn't say it was a good idea, but that is what the wording would allow.

 Breotan wrote:
Saw this on Facebook and was wondering if anyone here had seen it or knows anything about it?

needs moar skullz

so if you don't live near a GW store, you are SOL?

I gotta say, identical heretic versions of the Space Marine disciplines just feels creatively bankrupt to me. I've never been clear on why Marines got their exclusive psychic stuff to begin with, though. Was it just that the core rulebook disciplines have been invalidated by codex creep?

 redleger wrote:
so if you don't live near a GW store, you are SOL?

Only if you want to "buy" it

its kinda gaky for us in the state.

its probably fantastic for them brits who have like 10 stores within 50 miles.

So I finally finished the thread. Thank you to everybody posting about BA and AoS as that allowed me to skip a lot of posts....

I'm not 100% thrilled with this book, but I do think it helps. Is it the ott crap that some other armies got? No, but I never really wanted that, and I don't think most CSM players are asking for that. I do think some of the formations help and I really want to run the Raptor one and charge out of DS with the Talons. I wish they hadn't been so lazy with the psychic powers, though. How hard would it be to write up spells that are approximately the same power level as the loyalist powers, but not the same as those powers? That's one against the designers. As for Kharn, I'm on the fence about the new model, otherwise he hasn't changed, but I guess there was no reason to expect he would....except for being able to use him in KDK, I still don't understand why you can't use him in KDK. BTW, as a house rule, I would let anybody using KDK use him as an HQ as it's just goofy to not have him there. I so want to run the full decurion, but I'm not sure I can bring myself to buy that many Warpsmiths along with the other stuff I would need to get it running......

 redleger wrote:
You could hit the same vehicle with it twice from 2 different sorceres, POTMS and +1 BS

Nope, not even that works. p.26: " The benefit of any one particular blessing can only be gained once per unit per turn..."
it may be a different effect each time you cast it, but it's the same blessing.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
I gotta say, identical heretic versions of the Space Marine disciplines just feels creatively bankrupt to me. I've never been clear on why Marines got their exclusive psychic stuff to begin with, though. Was it just that the core rulebook disciplines have been invalidated by codex creep?

I am honestly of the opinion that these books are just stopgaps until a major overhaul in 8e. If the 40k releases feel lazy, I'm going to hold my judgement until the new edition comes out and either turns them on their head or resets a lot of the stuff we're seeing right now.

Since the first post of this thread is no longer being updated, I went ahead and made a new thread here for the Blood Angels releases.http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/701919.page

Do the movement psychic power such as the shifting worldscape equivalent fix CSM's delivery problem? I for one am wondering about loading a forest with 9 exalted flamers then teleporting them around the battlefield. It fixes their lack of relentless and short range. Also, the ignore cover psychic power could be useful on say the renegade night with gatling cannons. 4++ cultists from a sorcerer bubble power.

I don't like the copy/paste job for lack of flavor, but it does give CSM some interesting options since these powers are pretty powerful. Too bad the two main movement ones will probably get nerfed in the ITC format.

It doesn't fix them but it helps. Being psychic powers means you need a fair amount of warpcharges and psykers to get what you need and be able to cast them. That's still no guarantee you get what you need and then it can still be denied, not to mention the possibility of perils.

Roknar wrote:
It doesn't fix them but it helps. Being psychic powers means you need a fair amount of warpcharges and psykers to get what you need and be able to cast them. That's still no guarantee you get what you need and then it can still be denied, not to mention the possibility of perils.

This is where the cabal come in handy

Requizen wrote:
Still nothing to fix the fact that Marked Sorcerers are garbage compared to Unmarked.

Doesn't that last page state that my (thousand sons) sorcerers can generate from any of those including ones they already know? Rerollable saves here we come!

Psychic powers are unreliable until you're spending most of your army to cast roughly 1 power per 500 points.

Requizen wrote:
I am honestly of the opinion that these books are just stopgaps until a major overhaul in 8e. If the 40k releases feel lazy, I'm going to hold my judgement until the new edition comes out and either turns them on their head or resets a lot of the stuff we're seeing right now.

We should get an idea real soon with the BA release. If it's a lazy crock of gak then you're right. If it's a lovingly crafted masterpiece of careful game design then Hater's Trait is just GW phoning it in again just like all the other Chaos releases for the last 10 years.

Daedalus81 wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Still nothing to fix the fact that Marked Sorcerers are garbage compared to Unmarked.

Doesn't that last page state that my (thousand sons) sorcerers can generate from any of those including ones they already know? Rerollable saves here we come!

Nah, they already can roll on malefic and sanctic. The problem is that the mark forces them to roll at least once on the tzeentch table, and that happens to be the only roll they get.

I'm going to go out of my way and say I like the fact that we get copies of the SM powers. They're really good powers and even went through the trouble of giving them unique flavor.

Is this relevant to the game? Well, not really but at least we get some good powers out of it. No one I know uses a lot of psychic powers so I'm rather stoked to use them.

Chaos-Bizarro-Land: Where access to Psychic Powers that were widely decried as broken or overly powerful when previously released is somehow a bad thing.

The only powers really decried as being too powerful were Writhing Worldscape and Electrodisplacement as they allow for Melee Deathstars to break heads turn 1. The rest of the powers ranged between weak to meh to pretty decent.

Last I checked CSMs lacked decent Melee Deathstars.

EDIT: That being said though, the new Possessed Formation can probably fill this gap. As long as the prince has wings and you get one of those 2 Psychic Powers (and you have another fast unit in position to switch the possessed with for Electrodisplacement) at least one Possessed unit will be breaking heads.

 Desubot wrote:
its kinda gaky for us in the state.

Or Oz where I doubt they are even opening more stores.

Just more obstacles to buying the things we want. What other company would make its fans jump through these sorts of hoops to buy something new?

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Chaos-Bizarro-Land: Where access to Psychic Powers that were widely decried as broken or overly powerful when previously released is somehow a bad thing.

I think it's more that if you run a cult army you are more limited in taking them and they are harder for us to use then SM
I am ok with them (will just use my SM cards as a rename is NOT worth the cash and bag space)
But will I USE them I don't know

It's not only not worth paying for the cards, it actively promotes confusion imho.

it was never worth paying for the cards to begin with, regardless of which powers you use. index cards are...pretty affordable comparatively.

For those not following the ForgeWorld Facebook, they made this post last night;

https://www.facebook.com/ForgeWorldUK/videos/1473976722619603/

Since they're suggesting the use of their models for the Black Crusade does this mean we might be getting an FAQ to allow their use in a Black Crusade Formation? Fingers crossed!

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Chaos-Bizarro-Land: Where access to Psychic Powers that were widely decried as broken or overly powerful when previously released is somehow a bad thing.

IMO, part of what's going on here is that CSM players -- as the fluff would suggest -- are a fairly fractured bunch who don't agree on what CSM need. The lack of consensus is why they seem to always be complaining.

 gorgon wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Chaos-Bizarro-Land: Where access to Psychic Powers that were widely decried as broken or overly powerful when previously released is somehow a bad thing.

IMO, part of what's going on here is that CSM players -- as the fluff would suggest -- are a fairly fractured bunch who don't agree on what CSM need. The lack of consensus is why they seem to always be complaining.

I think CSM need to be broken up into other codexs

 SirDigby wrote:
For those not following the ForgeWorld Facebook, they made this post last night;

https://www.facebook.com/ForgeWorldUK/videos/1473976722619603/

Since they're suggesting the use of their models for the Black Crusade does this mean we might be getting an FAQ to allow their use in a Black Crusade Formation? Fingers crossed!

So where do you think I could shoe in a brass scorpion or even some demos pattern laser vindicators? I'm not sure where they fit in the new black legion formations.

Oldmike wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Chaos-Bizarro-Land: Where access to Psychic Powers that were widely decried as broken or overly powerful when previously released is somehow a bad thing.

IMO, part of what's going on here is that CSM players -- as the fluff would suggest -- are a fairly fractured bunch who don't agree on what CSM need. The lack of consensus is why they seem to always be complaining.

I think CSM need to be broken up into other codexs

I would totally be in favor of the main CSM codex being just Chaos Undivided Legions and then the Cult Legions getting their own book. Make Khorne Daemonkin cover the World Eaters (this is where Kharn should be, IMO) and other Khorne warbands, Nurgle Daemonkin would be Death Guard and other Nurgle warbands, etc. And if you want to make a big warband combining them all, use the ally matrix.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
The only powers really decried as being too powerful were Writhing Worldscape and Electrodisplacement as they allow for Melee Deathstars to break heads turn 1. The rest of the powers ranged between weak to meh to pretty decent.

Yes, Veil of Time is totally weak to meh and not deforming the meta...

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
The only powers really decried as being too powerful were Writhing Worldscape and Electrodisplacement as they allow for Melee Deathstars to break heads turn 1. The rest of the powers ranged between weak to meh to pretty decent.

Yes, Veil of Time is totally weak to meh and not deforming the meta...

Do a lot of units of CSM have access to good saves where Veil of Time becomes worth it? Definitely there is an easy way to get them on C:SM characters with stuff like Storm Shields, but I am not familiar enough with CSM to know if they have the same availability.

 gorgon wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Chaos-Bizarro-Land: Where access to Psychic Powers that were widely decried as broken or overly powerful when previously released is somehow a bad thing.

IMO, part of what's going on here is that CSM players -- as the fluff would suggest -- are a fairly fractured bunch who don't agree on what CSM need. The lack of consensus is why they seem to always be complaining.

You got the part about complaining right. I have yet to read anything ORIGINAL by any chaos player in the last...Oh 10 years?

Requizen wrote:

I am honestly of the opinion that these books are just stopgaps until a major overhaul in 8e. If the 40k releases feel lazy, I'm going to hold my judgement until the new edition comes out and either turns them on their head or resets a lot of the stuff we're seeing right now.

Well, I did ust buy the Imperial Guard book and the Kill Team box this week, so if there's a new edition coming, I expect it to be released next week :-P

At least I paid for the stuff with a pile of retro videogames instead of euros....

tneva82 wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Chaos-Bizarro-Land: Where access to Psychic Powers that were widely decried as broken or overly powerful when previously released is somehow a bad thing.

IMO, part of what's going on here is that CSM players -- as the fluff would suggest -- are a fairly fractured bunch who don't agree on what CSM need. The lack of consensus is why they seem to always be complaining.

You got the part about complaining right. I have yet to read anything ORIGINAL by any chaos player in the last...Oh 10 years?

Complaining will continue until the codex improves. Deal with it.

tneva82 wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Chaos-Bizarro-Land: Where access to Psychic Powers that were widely decried as broken or overly powerful when previously released is somehow a bad thing.

IMO, part of what's going on here is that CSM players -- as the fluff would suggest -- are a fairly fractured bunch who don't agree on what CSM need. The lack of consensus is why they seem to always be complaining.

You got the part about complaining right. I have yet to read anything ORIGINAL by any chaos player in the last...Oh 10 years?

Oddly that same sentiment is the complaint of the chaos players - they haven't read anything original in a fair while. The formations are nice but these are all similar to ones other armies have had, likewise the powers are a literal copy/paste with a rename and the knight rules are too.

It's a decent book nevertheless but it's simply not chaos 3.5, which nothing ever will be,perhaps time people moved on from it though.

I remember reading from a poster on bolter and chainsword that he would not be satisfied unless Chaos is so over the top broken that it can curb stomp both Loyalists and Eldar.

His statement seems to ring true for a lot of chaos players...

Edit: so yeah, they want CSM 3.5 back, in other words. :p

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
The only powers really decried as being too powerful were Writhing Worldscape and Electrodisplacement as they allow for Melee Deathstars to break heads turn 1. The rest of the powers ranged between weak to meh to pretty decent.

Yes, Veil of Time is totally weak to meh and not deforming the meta...

Do a lot of units of CSM have access to good saves where Veil of Time becomes worth it? Definitely there is an easy way to get them on C:SM characters with stuff like Storm Shields, but I am not familiar enough with CSM to know if they have the same availability.

The only models with access to an innate 3++ (without additional Psychic power usage) are a limited number of our HQs (requiring purchase of a Sigil of Corruption and Mark of Tzeentch which is 40pts for Sorcerers and Lords. The only other HQ with access to a 3++ is a Dark Apostle with Mark of Tzeentch but at that point you're paying 120 points in total before other upgrades for a slightly more survivable Chaplain) or Crimson Slaughter Possessed (who have a 1/3 chance of getting a temporary 3++ at the start of each turn).

Funnily enough you'll almost never see a Lord or Sorcerer with a 3++ because 1) Khorne Jugger Lords and Nurgle Fisty-Claw Biker Lords are plain better for their cost and 2) Tzeentch Sorcerers are forced to roll 1 of their powers on the worst Psychic Discipline in the game.

I suppose it's half-decent on our 2+ Armour Save units...but of those only Obliterators are seen as half-usable beyond a one shot suicide unit with combi-weapons (our Terminators).
And it's not like any of our power armour units are amazing enough to use the power on, either.

The desire to be far more powerful than the top books is so far from most Chaos players complaints. I'd take a lower power level if it meant the faction was better depicted on the table.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Spoiler:

So at the end of Traitor's Hate, the Blood Angels are calling for aid from the Grey Knights. Perhaps volume three of Black Crusade will include material for the Grey Knights?

Lets hope not as that would mean imperials got two books in a row where chaos only got 1. The black crusade is supposed to be chaos focused yet the imperials are already ahead

People keep going back to the 3.5 Chaos codex as being some monstrosity of overpowered units, but it really wasn't - it just had a couple of powerful combinations and options that weren't normal for the time

the most OP thing in the 3.5 'dex was Iron Warriors getting an extra (useful) HS slot if they sacrificed barely-touched FA slots, and now we have formations and vehicle squadrons that make that seem like nothing.

If you played with the 3.5 dex now you'd find it mid-teir at best, way less powerful than most of the other books out there but still massively better than what Chaos have now

 Motograter wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Spoiler:

So at the end of Traitor's Hate, the Blood Angels are calling for aid from the Grey Knights. Perhaps volume three of Black Crusade will include material for the Grey Knights?

Lets hope not as that would mean imperials got two books in a row where chaos only got 1. The black crusade is supposed to be chaos focused yet the imperials are already ahead

Maybe they will share a book with some more Chaos stuff.

Charax wrote:
People keep going back to the 3.5 Chaos codex as being some monstrosity of overpowered units, but it really wasn't - it just had a couple of powerful combinations and options that weren't normal for the time

the most OP thing in the 3.5 'dex was Iron Warriors getting an extra (useful) HS slot if they sacrificed barely-touched FA slots, and now we have formations and vehicle squadrons that make that seem like nothing.

If you played with the 3.5 dex now you'd find it mid-teir at best, way less powerful than most of the other books out there but still massively better than what Chaos have now

This is true, it would be a drop in the pond these days, as the rules have moved on enough to make the abusive combo not so bad, so no cav deamon prince infiltrating and assaulting turn 1, no deamon bomb etc. Etc.

But it would allow TRUE legion and renegade armies, want renegade, take 2 vet skills, no marks and away you go, want deathly silent death guard, take infiltrate and book of nurgle death guard, night Lords with raptors and infiltrate, iron out warriors and tank hunters.

On and on.

Charax wrote:

the most OP thing in the 3.5 'dex was Iron Warriors getting an extra (useful) HS slot

*cough*siren*dreadaxe*daemonprince*cough*

Dreadaxe?

Damn I really love the Heretech Powers. Did anyone say AV15 Landraider? CHOO CHOO Sexual assault train knows no breaks.

 SicSemperTyrannis wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Chaos-Bizarro-Land: Where access to Psychic Powers that were widely decried as broken or overly powerful when previously released is somehow a bad thing.

IMO, part of what's going on here is that CSM players -- as the fluff would suggest -- are a fairly fractured bunch who don't agree on what CSM need. The lack of consensus is why they seem to always be complaining.

You got the part about complaining right. I have yet to read anything ORIGINAL by any chaos player in the last...Oh 10 years?

Complaining will continue until the codex improves. Deal with it.

Complaining will continue even past that. They are never happy with it.

And why you think I skip like 99% of posts related to chaos? I need to find non-chaos player posting to find something I haven't read already before million times.

tneva82 wrote:

 SicSemperTyrannis wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Chaos-Bizarro-Land: Where access to Psychic Powers that were widely decried as broken or overly powerful when previously released is somehow a bad thing.

IMO, part of what's going on here is that CSM players -- as the fluff would suggest -- are a fairly fractured bunch who don't agree on what CSM need. The lack of consensus is why they seem to always be complaining.

You got the part about complaining right. I have yet to read anything ORIGINAL by any chaos player in the last...Oh 10 years?

Complaining will continue until the codex improves. Deal with it.

Complaining will continue even past that. They are never happy with it.

And why you think I skip like 99% of posts related to chaos? I need to find non-chaos player posting to find something I haven't read already before million times.

This is also part of the reason (beyond the fact the OP has not been updated in forever) I moved the Blood Angels discussion to a different thread. No way two factions worth of bitching all in one thread can be conducive to a healthy discussion.

tneva82 wrote:

 SicSemperTyrannis wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Chaos-Bizarro-Land: Where access to Psychic Powers that were widely decried as broken or overly powerful when previously released is somehow a bad thing.

IMO, part of what's going on here is that CSM players -- as the fluff would suggest -- are a fairly fractured bunch who don't agree on what CSM need. The lack of consensus is why they seem to always be complaining.

You got the part about complaining right. I have yet to read anything ORIGINAL by any chaos player in the last...Oh 10 years?

Complaining will continue until the codex improves. Deal with it.

Complaining will continue even past that. They are never happy with it.

Yes, just like those SoB players amirite? Even after they release a complete line of plastic sisters they'll still be complaining about not having a supported model line! It's boring to me!

tneva82 wrote:
And why you think I skip like 99% of posts related to chaos? I need to find non-chaos player posting to find something I haven't read already before million times.

Then might I suggest you up that 99% to 100%? Then you could spare yourself the displeasure of reading posts of Chaos players complaining and Chaos players could be spared the displeasure of reading posts of your complaining about their complaining. Win-win!

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
The only powers really decried as being too powerful were Writhing Worldscape and Electrodisplacement as they allow for Melee Deathstars to break heads turn 1. The rest of the powers ranged between weak to meh to pretty decent.

Yes, Veil of Time is totally weak to meh and not deforming the meta...

Do a lot of units of CSM have access to good saves where Veil of Time becomes worth it? Definitely there is an easy way to get them on C:SM characters with stuff like Storm Shields, but I am not familiar enough with CSM to know if they have the same availability.

I usually run the previously mentioned Tzeentch marked 3+/3++ sorcerer (since I'm one of the few who actually still run Thousand Sons) who runs around with his Thousand Sons bodyguard in a rhino. It certainly would let one of the worst units in the dex cope with their biggest threat (poor ap small arms) much better without being horrendously strong given how ridiculously easy they get gunned down at the moment.

If you really wanted to cheese things out, you can get a 2+/3++ tzeentch lord on a jetbike with Fist/claw out of the Crimson Slaughter dex (or one with a 3+/3++ and eternal warrior out of black legion) and jam him out the front to tank most stuff. You can get Tzeentch termies or Obliterators to a 2+/3++ pretty easily if you score sanctuary (or cursed earth for the Obliterators so they don't have to take dangerous terrain tests), possessed / warp talons / Obliterators can all get a 2++ with cursed earth and grimoure from Daemon Allies, but now you've devoted enough resources to have the entire list revolve around these units. Oh, chuck KDK hounds/'letters/'crushers in there as well as being able to get a 2++ with cursed earth and grimoure, but now you're even deeper into the hole for something that you've got no way to guarantee that you get the powers that you need.

I think that's about it for CSM as their only source of 2+ Armour is a single relic in Crimson Slaughter, the horrendously overcosted warpsmith, Terminator Armour on lords or Sorcs (I don't think a dark apostle even has the option to take termie armour) or a unit of Terminators / Obliterators / Mutilators.

Tzeentch Warp Talons are about the only thing with promise for a reroll save based deathstar since everything else is too slow or lacks a natural invulnerable save. Unless you just use the Cabal and just keep lumping independent characters together, you might make that work.

 Drasius wrote:
Unless you just use the Cabal and just keep lumping independent characters together

A common trick, but makes Thousand Sons players very happy.

Access to these powers is great. It really moved my interest in playing my army up again.

 Brometheus wrote:

 Drasius wrote:
Unless you just use the Cabal and just keep lumping independent characters together

A common trick, but makes Thousand Sons players very happy.

Access to these powers is great. It really moved my interest in playing my army up again.

I've been out in AoS land for a while - what is the cabal?

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Brometheus wrote:

 Drasius wrote:
Unless you just use the Cabal and just keep lumping independent characters together

A common trick, but makes Thousand Sons players very happy.

Access to these powers is great. It really moved my interest in playing my army up again.

I've been out in AoS land for a while - what is the cabal?

A formation of 3 - 5 Sorcerors from the black legion Supplement re-release. They get a WC3 spell to take control of a non-vehicle unit from your opponent and fire it as if it was yours. Mainly seen as a tax free way to get as many ML3 Sorcerors as required into a KDK army.

Ah ha - got it - thanks!

So I'm just gonna leave this here:

 EnTyme wrote:
So I'm just gonna leave this here:

Do you mean the video being discussed HERE?

So, given that they've basically and they were created for the sole purpose of the starter set does this mean 8th ed is imminent?

If they're truly killing of crimson slaughter, I don't care how bad this supplement or our kits are...totally worth it XD. Keep that to the fluff or make it a C:SM supplement.

Poor Crimson.. He's no longer laughing.

tneva82 wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Chaos-Bizarro-Land: Where access to Psychic Powers that were widely decried as broken or overly powerful when previously released is somehow a bad thing.

IMO, part of what's going on here is that CSM players -- as the fluff would suggest -- are a fairly fractured bunch who don't agree on what CSM need. The lack of consensus is why they seem to always be complaining.

You got the part about complaining right. I have yet to read anything ORIGINAL by any chaos player in the last...Oh 10 years?

Complaining about chaos players complaining is also complaining right? I haven't heard an original jab at chaos players in the last...oh 10 years.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
The only powers really decried as being too powerful were Writhing Worldscape and Electrodisplacement as they allow for Melee Deathstars to break heads turn 1. The rest of the powers ranged between weak to meh to pretty decent.

Yes, Veil of Time is totally weak to meh and not deforming the meta...

Do a lot of units of CSM have access to good saves where Veil of Time becomes worth it? Definitely there is an easy way to get them on C:SM characters with stuff like Storm Shields, but I am not familiar enough with CSM to know if they have the same availability.

The only models with access to an innate 3++ (without additional Psychic power usage) are a limited number of our HQs (requiring purchase of a Sigil of Corruption and Mark of Tzeentch which is 40pts for Sorcerers and Lords. The only other HQ with access to a 3++ is a Dark Apostle with Mark of Tzeentch but at that point you're paying 120 points in total before other upgrades for a slightly more survivable Chaplain) or Crimson Slaughter Possessed (who have a 1/3 chance of getting a temporary 3++ at the start of each turn).

Funnily enough you'll almost never see a Lord or Sorcerer with a 3++ because 1) Khorne Jugger Lords and Nurgle Fisty-Claw Biker Lords are plain better for their cost and 2) Tzeentch Sorcerers are forced to roll 1 of their powers on the worst Psychic Discipline in the game.

I suppose it's half-decent on our 2+ Armour Save units...but of those only Obliterators are seen as half-usable beyond a one shot suicide unit with combi-weapons (our Terminators).
And it's not like any of our power armour units are amazing enough to use the power on, either.

MoT Lords on the Disk are actually okay in a Crimson Slaughter list. It just can't beat that sweet T6.

They can get T6 now too.

tneva82 wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Chaos-Bizarro-Land: Where access to Psychic Powers that were widely decried as broken or overly powerful when previously released is somehow a bad thing.

IMO, part of what's going on here is that CSM players -- as the fluff would suggest -- are a fairly fractured bunch who don't agree on what CSM need. The lack of consensus is why they seem to always be complaining.

You got the part about complaining right. I have yet to read anything ORIGINAL by any chaos player in the last...Oh 10 years?

That's probably because the 3.5 codex of 10 years ago was an anomaly in the overall history of CSM in 40K, but it's some players' favorite and they latched onto it as the baseline. To be fair, it was the only treatment of CSM that was heavily legion-based.

Of course, if GW was to move more toward legions and away from generic CSM/Chaos mishmash, you'd see some players pleased and others made unhappy. It's a complex customer base that will never be easy to please, just because they don't really agree, like I said. It's the same thing with the "simplify 40K" crowd. People can agree on that as a top-level goal, but there'd be lots of disagreement about *what* needs simplified and changed, never mind all the players who *don't* want the ruleset to be majorly overhauled.

Players of other suffering factions like DE and Tyranids aren't a homogeneous bunch, but are probably more on the same page regarding the shortcomings of their armies. And that probably leads to less discussion, and why you don't see as many gripes about those armies even taking player base size into account.

 gorgon wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Chaos-Bizarro-Land: Where access to Psychic Powers that were widely decried as broken or overly powerful when previously released is somehow a bad thing.

IMO, part of what's going on here is that CSM players -- as the fluff would suggest -- are a fairly fractured bunch who don't agree on what CSM need. The lack of consensus is why they seem to always be complaining.

You got the part about complaining right. I have yet to read anything ORIGINAL by any chaos player in the last...Oh 10 years?

That's probably because the 3.5 codex of 10 years ago was an anomaly in the overall history of CSM in 40K, but it's some players' favorite and they latched onto it as the baseline. To be fair, it was the only treatment of CSM that was heavily legion-based.

Of course, if GW was to move more toward legions and away from generic CSM/Chaos mishmash, you'd see some players pleased and others made unhappy. It's a complex customer base that will never be easy to please, just because they don't really agree, like I said. It's the same thing with the "simplify 40K" crowd. People can agree on that as a top-level goal, but there'd be lots of disagreement about *what* needs simplified and changed, never mind all the players who *don't* want the ruleset to be majorly overhauled.

Players of other suffering factions like DE and Tyranids aren't a homogeneous bunch, but are probably more on the same page regarding the shortcomings of their armies. And that probably leads to less discussion, and why you don't see as many gripes about those armies even taking player base size into account.

The 3.0 codex is not bad either for chaos it was after the two that they went downhill hard to the joke they are now
And every new codex they seem to be comparatively weaker compared to SM or eldar
The core models are what 10 years old

The more recent renegades that are not descended from the traitor legions should really be a supplement for codex Space marines. Trying to cover all of the varied forces of Chaos marines(never mind all the non marine Chaos armies) with one book is IMO part of the problem. Unfortunately I suspect that Chaos are stuck in loop here in the real world, where they don't sell enough to get the support and the don't get the support they need to sell.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Chaos-Bizarro-Land: Where access to Psychic Powers that were widely decried as broken or overly powerful when previously released is somehow a bad thing.

Not a bad thing at all and it's certainly better than what we were getting before. That said, we can still be disappointed by the laziness of copy/paste rather than doing the work of actually designing approximately equivalent powers.

GoatboyBeta wrote:
The more recent renegades that are not descended from the traitor legions should really be a supplement for codex Space marines.

They would need a new product line of renegade SM minis to support that approach. The product drives the rules and the fluff. That's why every chapter that turns from the Emperor's light immediately sprouts horns, spikes and extended backpack vents, and starts using Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

 Battlesong wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Chaos-Bizarro-Land: Where access to Psychic Powers that were widely decried as broken or overly powerful when previously released is somehow a bad thing.

Not a bad thing at all and it's certainly better than what we were getting before. That said, we can still be disappointed by the laziness of copy/paste rather than doing the work of actually designing approximately equivalent powers.

Which just adds to rules bloat and is something else to complain about. Really a uniform psychic power list across all form of Astartes (Traitor or Loyalist) with *some* unique additions like Interromancy, the Chaos God lores and whatever the Blood Angels and Space Furries actually makes a lot of sense and, though you may call it lazy, is good design.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

GoatboyBeta wrote:
The more recent renegades that are not descended from the traitor legions should really be a supplement for codex Space marines.

They would need a new product line of renegade SM minis to support that approach. The product drives the rules and the fluff. That's why every chapter that turns from the Emperor's light immediately sprouts horns, spikes and extended backpack vents, and starts using Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

Not only that but upon entering the eye they lose land speeders, whirlwinds, storm shields, decent armour, different land raiders, grav weapons, fancy weapons etc but they do gain autocannons. So all balances out

 Motograter wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

GoatboyBeta wrote:
The more recent renegades that are not descended from the traitor legions should really be a supplement for codex Space marines.

They would need a new product line of renegade SM minis to support that approach. The product drives the rules and the fluff. That's why every chapter that turns from the Emperor's light immediately sprouts horns, spikes and extended backpack vents, and starts using Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

Not only that but upon entering the eye they lose land speeders, whirlwinds, storm shields, decent armour, different land raiders, grav weapons, fancy weapons etc but they do gain autocannons. So all balances out

Turns out that all of those things are actually quite functional as wards against daemonic influences, and those renegades fell to chaos because they didn't maintain enough in their armories, or left them behind on a deployment. Who knew?

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

GoatboyBeta wrote:
The more recent renegades that are not descended from the traitor legions should really be a supplement for codex Space marines.

They would need a new product line of renegade SM minis to support that approach. The product drives the rules and the fluff. That's why every chapter that turns from the Emperor's light immediately sprouts horns, spikes and extended backpack vents, and starts using Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

Not really, a lot of the CSM range is compatible with the loyalist Marines range.

Especially if one proxies Ravens as nightlords, because your stuff is better than ours we want it

GoatboyBeta wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

GoatboyBeta wrote:
The more recent renegades that are not descended from the traitor legions should really be a supplement for codex Space marines.

They would need a new product line of renegade SM minis to support that approach. The product drives the rules and the fluff. That's why every chapter that turns from the Emperor's light immediately sprouts horns, spikes and extended backpack vents, and starts using Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

Not really, a lot of the CSM range is compatible with the loyalist Marines range.

But how would Little Timmy's mommy know which boxes to buy?

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
The only powers really decried as being too powerful were Writhing Worldscape and Electrodisplacement as they allow for Melee Deathstars to break heads turn 1. The rest of the powers ranged between weak to meh to pretty decent.

Yes, Veil of Time is totally weak to meh and not deforming the meta...

Do a lot of units of CSM have access to good saves where Veil of Time becomes worth it? Definitely there is an easy way to get them on C:SM characters with stuff like Storm Shields, but I am not familiar enough with CSM to know if they have the same availability.

Veil of Time on a Cyclopian Cabal that is joined to a unit of KDK Flesh Hounds would be pretty nasty, especially if another member of the Cabal casts Sanctuary on it! All you need to make it even worse would be Invisibility or Endurance. Still not as bananas as Superfriends or the BarkBarkStar, but probably the closest Chaos can get.

I've noticed that the current plastic CSM are inbetween looking like uncorrupted marines just wearing altered armor, and marines that have actually been twisted by the warp. They really are just generic as gak aren't they?

But honestly, I'm sure it can't be that hard to kitbash that with a loyalist tactical squad, or even just take a loyalist tactical squad and greenstuff/bitz your way out.

And is it just me or is that old plastic kit still actually the most recent infantry release for CSM that isn't monopose?

Raptors/Talons came in the last release, alongside the dinobots.

But you're precisely right, I'm not a fan of the current CSM squad, so have used bits alongside Imperial kits to chaosify my late Heresy 30K/40K army.

There won't be any horns or bunny ears or top knots in any army of mine without good reason!

Not seen it mentioned anywhere but are we not getting squadrons for the Hell brute? Kinda hoped that would be in here.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Raptors/Talons came in the last release, alongside the dinobots.

But you're precisely right, I'm not a fan of the current CSM squad, so have used bits alongside Imperial kits to chaosify my late Heresy 30K/40K army.

There won't be any horns or bunny ears or top knots in any army of mine without good reason!

Ah, the raptors! I forgot about those. I remember when I first laid eyes on them the only word that was in my head was "finally".

That word's going to come back for the Thousand Sons release.

But apparently we don't have anything else coming in the next 8 months or however long it'll take for a CSM update. I imagine they'll be first to be updated, and maybe we'll see plastic havocs, and then something stupid like an armored stegosaurus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and then another 5 years until we see the next kit updated.

For all the folk whining about why chaos players are angry here you go: This the 2nd book for the black crusade
It contains 9 new formations and 2 powerful new Detachments, Death Company Relics, Death Company Tactical Objectives, revised Wargear of Baal section, 3 new Altar of War missions, new datasheets for the Blood Angel Terminator Captain, Death Company Chaplain and updated datasheets of the Assault Squad and Devastator Squad.

Chaos got zero relics, traits or profile updates. Still think traitors hate is good.....

Huh, so they are giving BAs grav cannon Devs and Eviscerators for assault marines?

Not bad.

Unless their Blood Angels/Death Company mega formations are worth a damn, they will still probably be a worse Codex: Space Marines, but that's what happens when you try to chop in a shooting edition.

Initial impressions from Frankie and Reece on signals is good. I also could tell it was good when I seen it.

At this point your army is now extremely powerful due to the deathstars you can make and some really good support formations. The DE, Orks, and IG all need way more than you need even more OP easy I win button formations and psychic powers.

They get kicked almost to the top of the meta and they still whine. Certainly near the top of the mid-tier maybe even as high as Tau.
I actually think the amount of whiny Chaos players is going up the more stuff they get and the stronger they get. I say nerf them so we only have to deal with an bearable low level of droning. It was a neat experiment but we now see first hand why GW doesn't give them stuff. Fact. http://www.totellstories.com/40k/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vg1gTas7OAA#t=9m18s and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ymc_5dake0#t=2m19s

 Gamgee wrote:
Initial impressions from Frankie and Reece on signals is good. I also could tell it was good when I seen it.

At this point your army is now extremely powerful due to the deathstars you can make and some really good support formations. The DE, Orks, and IG all need way more than you need even more OP easy I win button formations and psychic powers.

They get kicked almost to the top of the meta and they still whine. Certainly near the top of the mid-tier maybe even as high as Tau.
I actually think the amount of whiny Chaos players is going up the more stuff they get and the stronger they get. I say nerf them so we only have to deal with an bearable low level of droning. It was a neat experiment but we now see first hand why GW doesn't give them stuff. Fact. http://www.totellstories.com/40k/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vg1gTas7OAA#t=9m18s and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ymc_5dake0#t=2m19s

You really have absolutely no clue what you are talking about don't you?

Source their latest signals. http://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/4/3/0/43019ef6878c0311/111_signals_audio_465.mp3?c_id=12717875&expiration=1473503489&hwt=516ff3c9853e3f92c37e9b06ef91e492

Gamgee wrote:Initial impressions from Frankie and Reece on signals is good. I also could tell it was good when I seen it.

At this point your army is now extremely powerful due to the deathstars you can make and some really good support formations. The DE, Orks, and IG all need way more than you need even more OP easy I win button formations and psychic powers.

Heaven forbid Chaos Space Marine players what character and fun, not "extremely powerful deathstars". You do know a lot of CSM players don't need to or want to win with the plastic toy soldiers but have fun with them?
Just like Tyranid or Ork players, they want to play, have fun BUT NOT BE DISADNAVATAGED when a mini is not even on the table yet?

How is having a deathstar unit having fun with Chaos? That is playing to win with plastic toy soldiers. How about people wanting character and fun in their codex, not just the "I Win" button.

Davor wrote:

Gamgee wrote:Initial impressions from Frankie and Reece on signals is good. I also could tell it was good when I seen it.

At this point your army is now extremely powerful due to the deathstars you can make and some really good support formations. The DE, Orks, and IG all need way more than you need even more OP easy I win button formations and psychic powers.

Heaven forbid Chaos Space Marine players what character and fun, not "extremely powerful deathstars". You do know a lot of CSM players don't need to or want to win with the plastic toy soldiers but have fun with them?
Just like Tyranid or Ork players, they want to play, have fun BUT NOT BE DISADVANTAGED when a mini is not even on the table yet?

How is having a deathstar unit having fun with Chaos? That is playing to win with plastic toy soldiers. How about people wanting character and fun in their codex, not just the "I Win" button.

Ah but you forget, the only people allowed to have 'fun' in this game are the competitive, tournament, ITC crowd. If it's not Top 3/5/10/16* (*delete as required) viable it's not worth playing. One of the reasons I can't go back to some of the Tyranid discussion boards, it just devolves into 'play Flyrants and these specific models as well and ignore 90% of the cool models'.

I'm not sure what the complaint is for Chaos now though. Yes models are old and need updating, but you're not alone in that though I do grant there are a fair few that need new kits from this range. The rules added are pretty cool, look fluffy and aren't bad.

So my first game is today, battle scribe updated, and I have been expirementing with lists all day. I am playing vs 2k of loyalist crap. (wolves which almost always kick my rear).

Here is the deal. due to the 3-5 units rule on most formations, it is still extremely hard to fit a large number of units on the table, unless I spam MSU. That wont wort for CSM as those chosen, vanilla, havocs will just die in place grotesquely. OK, I start looking at the cabal, some daemon engine support. I cut my unit count in half. OK, lets spam cultists as a core. Nope, still having issues creating synergy within the detachment that way.

Ill see how it works out, but I know CSM very well, and unless I pick from only select units to create a death star, its still gonna be the same problems with nothing solved. I am not whining I am simply stating a fact. I will take pictures and post abattle report in the appropriate thread, and hopefully i will be pleaseantly surprised, but I doubt it.

I find it funny that anyone gives a gak what the ITC "let's make everything competitive" people say. These same people post lists that say one thing and have nothing even remotely showing them to be that, for example they'll post an "Iron Warriors" CSM list and then you see Nurgle everywhere, zombies, allied Tzeentch, etc. nothing that makes it "Iron Warriors" besides a name and, presumably, a paint scheme.

For a game like 40k, that isn't even intended to be played in a tournament, their opinions are less than worthless to me because they are actively trying to corrupt the game into something it's not and then feel that their viewpoints on how to "build" a list that has virtually zero resemblance to anything the way it should look like is somehow an indication that a supplement is good/bad.

Speaking of "Top of the Meta", do we have any actual evidence of such or is it pure theorycrafting, considering how long it's been out and all.

Gamgee is the only user I've blocked and this is a good example why.

Well if he wants to say they are as high as Tau now, he should be able to conclusively provide some evidence as to why eh?

Blood Angels Codex: Red Thirst Edition

Codex: Blood Angels – Red Thirst Edition

A digital-exclusive Warhammer 40,000 Codex

Codex: Blood Angels details one of the Imperium's oldest and most enduring Space Marine Chapters. Inside you will learn about their history, their heroes and the terrible effects of the Black Rage and the Red Thirst that assail their battle-brothers.

CONTENTS

46 datasheets for the entire range of Blood Angels Citadel Miniatures
10 formations, themed collections of datasheets with additional special rules
Three detachments – the Baal Strike Force, Angel's Blade Strike Force and Lost Brotherhood Strike Force
Full details for Blood Angels wargear and two sets of relics
Army special rules, including two sets of Warlord Traits and Tactical Objectives
Five Psychic disciplines: Sanguinary, Librarius, Technomancy, Fulmination and Geokinesis
A comprehensive guide to the Blood Angels, their history and their rituals
A showcase of stunning Citadel Miniatures presenting the colours and heraldry of the Blood Angels

DESCRIPTION
Forged in the flames of the Horus Heresy, the Blood Angels are among the greatest of the Emperor's warriors. Revered on a million worlds and feared by Mankind's myriad foes, for over ten thousand years they have fought in the Emperor's name, earning countless honours and vanquishing his enemies. Yet for all their nobility and renown, dark rumours of a bloody thirst and battle madness surround them, some questioning their very humanity. Whatever the truth, few who have witnessed them in battle can deny their fury or their devotion to the Emperor, and few that stand against them live to tell the tale.

This digital-exclusive Red Thirst Edition combines the content of Codex: Blood Angels with the new Blood Angels rules from Black Crusade: Traitor's Hate, forming the ultimate collection of rules for the Sons of Sanguinius.

tneva82 wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Chaos-Bizarro-Land: Where access to Psychic Powers that were widely decried as broken or overly powerful when previously released is somehow a bad thing.

IMO, part of what's going on here is that CSM players -- as the fluff would suggest -- are a fairly fractured bunch who don't agree on what CSM need. The lack of consensus is why they seem to always be complaining.

You got the part about complaining right. I have yet to read anything ORIGINAL by any chaos player in the last...Oh 10 years?

Why would you hear anything original complaint wise. The problem have never been corrected. The codex has gotten worse every time its been updated. The problems have been very obvious for a very long time.

tneva82 wrote:
You got the part about complaining right. I have yet to read anything ORIGINAL by any chaos player in the last...Oh 10 years?

That's cause we haven't had a good Codex in 10 years.

Well, 9, really. The 'Chaos' Codex came out in 2007.

 BroodSpawn wrote:

Davor wrote:

Gamgee wrote:Initial impressions from Frankie and Reece on signals is good. I also could tell it was good when I seen it.

At this point your army is now extremely powerful due to the deathstars you can make and some really good support formations. The DE, Orks, and IG all need way more than you need even more OP easy I win button formations and psychic powers.

Heaven forbid Chaos Space Marine players what character and fun, not "extremely powerful deathstars". You do know a lot of CSM players don't need to or want to win with the plastic toy soldiers but have fun with them?
Just like Tyranid or Ork players, they want to play, have fun BUT NOT BE DISADVANTAGED when a mini is not even on the table yet?

How is having a deathstar unit having fun with Chaos? That is playing to win with plastic toy soldiers. How about people wanting character and fun in their codex, not just the "I Win" button.

Ah but you forget, the only people allowed to have 'fun' in this game are the competitive, tournament, ITC crowd. If it's not Top 3/5/10/16* (*delete as required) viable it's not worth playing. One of the reasons I can't go back to some of the Tyranid discussion boards, it just devolves into 'play Flyrants and these specific models as well and ignore 90% of the cool models'.

I'm not sure what the complaint is for Chaos now though. Yes models are old and need updating, but you're not alone in that though I do grant there are a fair few that need new kits from this range. The rules added are pretty cool, look fluffy and aren't bad.

You don't have to be a win at all cost player to want to have a fair chance of winning. Most of these formations are either bad, inefficient , or have a heavy tax on them. The new powers are nice but C:SM have the same powers and better rules to begin with. He's right not everyone plays deathstars, cabals, or only takes cultists as troops. For that matter not every Chaos player took 3 Heldrakes when they were good. Many Chaos players want to play actual Chaos marines. I could care less about new models, as you can always proxy or convert. I'd like to see the Cults, and actual marine parts of the codex get some focus.

CSM are missing a lot of the tactical options that the "good" armies have. No reserve manipulation, no scatter manipulation, no reliable access to infiltration, and poor transport options, and assault unit lacking basic options like grenades. These were the types of problem that our formations could have addressed. We know this because C:SM who had all of those thing in their codex got even better at them with their formations.

Davor wrote:

Gamgee wrote:Initial impressions from Frankie and Reece on signals is good. I also could tell it was good when I seen it.

At this point your army is now extremely powerful due to the deathstars you can make and some really good support formations. The DE, Orks, and IG all need way more than you need even more OP easy I win button formations and psychic powers.

Heaven forbid Chaos Space Marine players what character and fun, not "extremely powerful deathstars". You do know a lot of CSM players don't need to or want to win with the plastic toy soldiers but have fun with them?
Just like Tyranid or Ork players, they want to play, have fun BUT NOT BE DISADNAVATAGED when a mini is not even on the table yet?

How is having a deathstar unit having fun with Chaos? That is playing to win with plastic toy soldiers. How about people wanting character and fun in their codex, not just the "I Win" button.

In that case no codex uses all its units not even the Eldar (though they do have the widest options). Massive amounts of my codex are useless, massive amounts of yours are useless, and so on and so forth. I want to use and take Kroot and Vespird and my tanks but I can't since they are so junk. That is not exclusive to CSM and I have no idea what CSM players think they have the right to whine so much about their poor internal codex balancing like its their damn right or something when almost every codex has that issue. The DE codex I want to use witches and all the bad units but I can't. In every game system ever no matter how balanced there will always be some units who aren't good. That's just how math works out. You can do your best to minimize this effect but then it turns the game more bland and less flavorful. I personally would not mind that. However many people complain when most armies rules look and play the same even though it will then come down more to skill than list building to win.

If you as a community complained about poor internal balancing of codices as a problem as a whole I would be on board, but the CSM players in particular seem to really think they're the only ones with problems and the only ones who need help and should get it. Even if we go back to a casual lists and games your now far more powerful with fun lists than de, orks, and IG easily.

Edit
Also I never block people on any internet forum or in real life. As annoying as some people are they do occasionally raise fair points and I learn from them. Also even if most people disagree with me I can take it since I'm comfortable with who I am. It's not the end of the world for me if people disagree with me. Sometimes I'm even wrong. With people of today however people need their safety bubbles I guess.

As a long-time Chaos Marine, Ork and Dark Eldar player, I find the idea that Chaos is OP or has super-powerful combinations compared to my other two forces... laughable.

can we cut out all this 'people who play this army are all whinging' talk? It's simply not the case and it's unfair labeling everyone

I never once used the term OP. I just said moved to the top of mid tier at best. Still way better than most armies now though. A lot of people think Tau are OP and they are patently wrong every time.

 Gamgee wrote:

Edit
Also I never block people on any internet forum or in real life. As annoying as some people are they do occasionally raise fair points and I learn from them. Also even if most people disagree with me I can take it since I'm comfortable with who I am. It's not the end of the world for me if people disagree with me. Sometimes I'm even wrong. With people of today however people need their safety bubbles I guess.

It's not about safety bubbles. It's the fact you come across as arrogant and obnoxious. It doesn't matter how good your point is if you kill the message with an unpleasant personality.

 Gamgee wrote:
I never once used the term OP. I just said moved to the top of mid tier at best. Still way better than most armies now though. A lot of people think Tau are OP and they are patently wrong every time.

Way better than most armies? Half armies in the games are some version of loyalist marines. Then you have Crons, Eldar, and Tau. So....

 Crimson Devil wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:

Edit
Also I never block people on any internet forum or in real life. As annoying as some people are they do occasionally raise fair points and I learn from them. Also even if most people disagree with me I can take it since I'm comfortable with who I am. It's not the end of the world for me if people disagree with me. Sometimes I'm even wrong. With people of today however people need their safety bubbles I guess.

It's not about safety bubbles. It's the fact you come across as arrogant and obnoxious. It doesn't matter how good your point is if you kill the message with an unpleasant personality.

A long long time ago I used to be a very nice and kind man. People didn't listen to me or take me seriously, but instead of being obnoxious I was well loved and respected. Even to the point I would get away with rule breaking due to my charming personality. Despite being on such good terms with people I tried to advise them. I chose kind words and despite giving the exact same kind of advice but in a more friendly manner they swept it away just like now except the excuses were different. Instead of obnoxious I was too kind and foolish to be right. Now that I am an alleged obnoxious man and no one listens to me or takes me seriously. So what does it matter how I act if the end result is the same? Most people simply will not listen no matter how you present yourself, and if you think they are you're only fooling yourself. The polite way they will say "I'll keep that in mind" when it never entered it in the first place or "I'll do it later" when they had no intentions of doing it.

 Gamgee wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:

Edit
Also I never block people on any internet forum or in real life. As annoying as some people are they do occasionally raise fair points and I learn from them. Also even if most people disagree with me I can take it since I'm comfortable with who I am. It's not the end of the world for me if people disagree with me. Sometimes I'm even wrong. With people of today however people need their safety bubbles I guess.

It's not about safety bubbles. It's the fact you come across as arrogant and obnoxious. It doesn't matter how good your point is if you kill the message with an unpleasant personality.

A long long time ago I used to be a very nice and kind man. People didn't listen to me or take me seriously, but instead of being obnoxious I was well loved and respected. Even to the point I would get away with rule breaking due to my charming personality. Despite being on such good terms with people I tried to advise them. I chose kind words and despite giving the exact same kind of advice but in a more friendly manner they swept it away just like now except the excuses were different. Instead of obnoxious I was too kind and foolish to be right. Now that I am an alleged obnoxious man and no one listens to me or takes me seriously. So what does it matter how I act if the end result is the same? Most people simply will not listen no matter how you present yourself, and if you think they are you're only fooling yourself. The polite way they will say "I'll keep that in mind" when it never entered it in the first place or "I'll do it later" when they had no intentions of doing it.

As amazing as it is to read page after page of people saying how crappy their dex is, or how gw hates chaos, I like to come to this thread to actually read real news and rumors. Theres a place for all of you to argue and yell at each other else where. Not the news and rumors thread.

Thanks

str00dles1 wrote:
As amazing as it is to read page after page of people saying how crappy their dex is, or how gw hates chaos, I like to come to this thread to actually read real news and rumors. Theres a place for all of you to argue and yell at each other else where. Not the news and rumors thread.

Thanks

He's absolutely right. Chaos getting the short end of the stick isn't news at all.

 Gamgee wrote:
A long long time ago I used to be a very nice and kind man.

Anytime you see a post begin like this, you know you're in for something very, very special.

 Gamgee wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:

Edit
Also I never block people on any internet forum or in real life. As annoying as some people are they do occasionally raise fair points and I learn from them. Also even if most people disagree with me I can take it since I'm comfortable with who I am. It's not the end of the world for me if people disagree with me. Sometimes I'm even wrong. With people of today however people need their safety bubbles I guess.

It's not about safety bubbles. It's the fact you come across as arrogant and obnoxious. It doesn't matter how good your point is if you kill the message with an unpleasant personality.

A long long time ago I used to be a very nice and kind man. People didn't listen to me or take me seriously, but instead of being obnoxious I was well loved and respected. Even to the point I would get away with rule breaking due to my charming personality. Despite being on such good terms with people I tried to advise them. I chose kind words and despite giving the exact same kind of advice but in a more friendly manner they swept it away just like now except the excuses were different. Instead of obnoxious I was too kind and foolish to be right. Now that I am an alleged obnoxious man and no one listens to me or takes me seriously. So what does it matter how I act if the end result is the same? Most people simply will not listen no matter how you present yourself, and if you think they are you're only fooling yourself. The polite way they will say "I'll keep that in mind" when it never entered it in the first place or "I'll do it later" when they had no intentions of doing it.

Perhaps it's time to consider the fact that you give gak advice?

 adamsouza wrote:
Blood Angels Codex: Red Thirst Edition

Codex: Blood Angels – Red Thirst Edition

A digital-exclusive Warhammer 40,000 Codex

Codex: Blood Angels details one of the Imperium's oldest and most enduring Space Marine Chapters. Inside you will learn about their history, their heroes and the terrible effects of the Black Rage and the Red Thirst that assail their battle-brothers.

CONTENTS

46 datasheets for the entire range of Blood Angels Citadel Miniatures
10 formations, themed collections of datasheets with additional special rules
Three detachments – the Baal Strike Force, Angel's Blade Strike Force and Lost Brotherhood Strike Force
Full details for Blood Angels wargear and two sets of relics
Army special rules, including two sets of Warlord Traits and Tactical Objectives
Five Psychic disciplines: Sanguinary, Librarius, Technomancy, Fulmination and Geokinesis
A comprehensive guide to the Blood Angels, their history and their rituals
A showcase of stunning Citadel Miniatures presenting the colours and heraldry of the Blood Angels

DESCRIPTION
Forged in the flames of the Horus Heresy, the Blood Angels are among the greatest of the Emperor's warriors. Revered on a million worlds and feared by Mankind's myriad foes, for over ten thousand years they have fought in the Emperor's name, earning countless honours and vanquishing his enemies. Yet for all their nobility and renown, dark rumours of a bloody thirst and battle madness surround them, some questioning their very humanity. Whatever the truth, few who have witnessed them in battle can deny their fury or their devotion to the Emperor, and few that stand against them live to tell the tale.

This digital-exclusive Red Thirst Edition combines the content of Codex: Blood Angels with the new Blood Angels rules from Black Crusade: Traitor's Hate, forming the ultimate collection of rules for the Sons of Sanguinius.

As awesome as this is for BA players, they really should just make it a free download or at least have a cheap hardback version for people who prefer physical copies. The rules are just going to get leaked online anyway. The rules better be on par with what every other top faction has though.

I personally won't be buying it though, because I've stopped playing and have started to sell all my stuff. Part of that was because I didn't like the direction they were going in, the other part was it's my most expensive hobby and I need funds for real life events, like rent, food etc. Not going to be able to support this hobby when I leave the nest.

Don't understand why the ITC was brought into discussion. They don't make the rules for Games Workshop products.

46 datasheets for the entire range of Blood Angels Citadel Miniatures

Forty-six?!?! Does anyone else see this as jaw-dropping awesome as I do?

If only GW does this will all the codexes..

Of course, no guarantee than all or any of these have been changed.

 JimOnMars wrote:

46 datasheets for the entire range of Blood Angels Citadel Miniatures

Forty-six?!?! Does anyone else see this as jaw-dropping awesome as I do?

If only GW does this will all the codexes..

Of course, no guarantee than all or any of these have been changed.

It's just the army list. Nothing special, especially when BA have quite a few characters still.

Got two VSG's -- they were on allocation at my store >.<

It's a very nice kit. If they were cheaper, I would have bought a few kits just to get the verticals to use as terrain, and the bases as generic platforms. I'm so glad now that I sold my resin one for some obscene amount of money, lol.

 JimOnMars wrote:

46 datasheets for the entire range of Blood Angels Citadel Miniatures

Forty-six?!?! Does anyone else see this as jaw-dropping awesome as I do?

If only GW does this will all the codexes..

Of course, no guarantee than all or any of these have been changed.

hahaha... the ultimate troll codex... PRESTO, here are the old datsheets, in their pristine, classic form but with shiny new page number! Somehow, I don't see it though I'm so pumped. LEAK! LEAK! LEAK! LEAK!

Quick reminder: RULE #2 is STAY ON TOPIC.

Got the book today. I was pleasantly suprised that its story part reads more like a novel than as a formal description of the events. Looking forward to the BA release even though I don't play the army myself.
As many have said I'm not convinced that this book fixes the inherent problems with the army, I'm still happy with it. There're some fun things I'm looking forward to include in my list.

I'm looking forward to what's coming our way next. When I finally get that new Ahriman sculpt in my hands, people are going to hear me shriek from miles away.

 Gamgee wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:

Edit
Also I never block people on any internet forum or in real life. As annoying as some people are they do occasionally raise fair points and I learn from them. Also even if most people disagree with me I can take it since I'm comfortable with who I am. It's not the end of the world for me if people disagree with me. Sometimes I'm even wrong. With people of today however people need their safety bubbles I guess.

It's not about safety bubbles. It's the fact you come across as arrogant and obnoxious. It doesn't matter how good your point is if you kill the message with an unpleasant personality.

A long long time ago I used to be a very nice and kind man. People didn't listen to me or take me seriously, but instead of being obnoxious I was well loved and respected. Even to the point I would get away with rule breaking due to my charming personality. Despite being on such good terms with people I tried to advise them. I chose kind words and despite giving the exact same kind of advice but in a more friendly manner they swept it away just like now except the excuses were different. Instead of obnoxious I was too kind and foolish to be right. Now that I am an alleged obnoxious man and no one listens to me or takes me seriously. So what does it matter how I act if the end result is the same? Most people simply will not listen no matter how you present yourself, and if you think they are you're only fooling yourself. The polite way they will say "I'll keep that in mind" when it never entered it in the first place or "I'll do it later" when they had no intentions of doing it.

A message (this includes advice) has two components: The content of the message and how it's brought (a.k.a. how you act).
If you say that "how it's brought doesn't matter" then I think it's time to face the fact that the content is the problem.
Also, being "willing to listen" and "agreeing with you" are two totally different things, especially if you are wrong.

You have been repeatedly asked to provide us with any evidence as to these supposedly "extremely powerful death stars" that "kicks us near the top of the meta" which this book enables. The only thing you posted so far in response to that is a 57 minute podcast that lightly touches on the subject (and in some cases just lacks the right information).
It mentions the "cabal deathstar" as "CSM being powerful". However, more often than not involves either (mostly the daemon part of) Khorne Daemonkin, Tzeentch Daemons or a combination of both. This is the same argument as people saying Renegades and Heretics fixes CSM. Adding 2 different armies does not make CSM, as an army, better. It only stresses the fact that the army is not good enough to stand on its own.

To peeps with all 3 Chaos Sups (BL, CS & TH), can I make a decent DG force? If so, which of the books should I buy (from 0 to all 3)?
Cheers!

Traitro's hate is more an Iron Warriors supplement than anything, but DG are also heavy on the siege theme. They also feature a whole lot of terminators and TH has a terminator formation that's at least not bad, it doesn't really do much either though. It's decent with a larger termie units but that in turn makes it too expensive imho.
If you like yourself some zombies though, TH allows you to bring back culstists on a 4+, so yea. Overall probably a good addition for DG.

Not sure how you feel about sorcerers, but TH offer new disciplines that are rather fluffy with some imagination. The Black Legion supplement offer a good formation to aquire sorcerers. Well, that and another termie formation which is ...eh. Though it's handy if you want to take termies with a sorcerer as the unit becomes fearless. Relics are mostly overcosted, but it does allow you buy eternal warrior.

Crimson slaughter blocks you from using daemon prices and all of our special characters. You also can't have VotLW, but the relics are mostly good and you gain army wide fear for free. There is a formation with rezzing cultists and aoe FnP (for basic csm and possessed). Otherwise it's not all that DG themed, but there are lots of leadership debuffs, which could be interpreted as being caused by their unsightly appearances. All the formations come with mandatory possessed mind you.

Overall you'll get the most out of TH and then CS if you don't mind the possessed. Black Legion is only interesting for the sorcerers and terminators.
Of course this is neglecting Imperial Armour 13 and the Siege of Vraks. IA has multitude of vehicles that good for any csm army, including some nurgle vehicles as well as being able to dedicate some to nurgle. Siege of vraks has a nurgle based detachment that even allows you to take chemical flamers and such. It also features an army list for renegades and heretics, which you mihgt want to ally with, the same is true for IA13. They are different but I don't know just how different.

As much as i like CSM getting new psyPowers and stuff... but realy just copy/paste ?
I am lucky my meta is OK with me playing TS as in the fanmade codex once i got them to read it.
No way its gonna make it into tournament meta, but atm i do not care. I know we( as in TS ) will get some stuff with the new releases for 30k. Thats what makes me happy.
I can understand that lots of 40k-ers like to get more/good/even decent stuff , but we are used to get ...shafted at best, right?
I am not complaining about the possibilitys given now, but we need to wait for the "Year of Tzeeeeench" - or rather the 12 months of it - to hit its peak.
Hence i am looking for the stuff to come for the TS.
And if i need to rely on the fanmade gak (that MY meta is ok with) i will wait.
Well, untill they feth up 8th next year ...

Well there's nothing stopping us taking these new formations outside a Black Crusade detachment, right?

Purge primary detachment, Terminator Annihilation force, Favoured of Chaos + some FW nasties (shame there's no Blight Drone formation) could make a decent basis for a DG force

 Gamgee wrote:
I never once used the term OP. I just said moved to the top of mid tier at best. Still way better than most armies now though. A lot of people think Tau are OP and they are patently wrong every time.

A big problem you and other non CSM players do is lump us all in one group. It's like saying SM are all ultramarines and there is the rub
CSM is being used as a codex for all CSM but KDK yet SM get 6 full codexs and more do you not see the problem

cheers guys! looks like TH is the book for me.

 bubber wrote:
To peeps with all 3 Chaos Sups (BL, CS & TH), can I make a decent DG force? If so, which of the books should I buy (from 0 to all 3)?
Cheers!

Although you can take cults troops as an auxiliary, again not worth the all the tax units. Since, GW didn't make the cult formation a core choice as that would apparently be just to OP. You better off just run a CAD and taking what ever formations you like as the detachment bonus isn't worth taking all the tax units in the "warband".

Is this it btw? With the angle's blade being part 2. From what I understand the fight is over and abaddon is headed into the eye, so I doubt we'll get a campaign book about his (mis)adventures.
Or is there some hope that we might still get another campaign book with that rumoured tzeentch theme still looming around and maybe this time we'll get some relics?

 Sersi wrote:

 bubber wrote:
To peeps with all 3 Chaos Sups (BL, CS & TH), can I make a decent DG force? If so, which of the books should I buy (from 0 to all 3)?
Cheers!

Although you can take cults troops as an auxiliary, again not worth the all the tax units. Since, GW didn't make the cult formation a core choice as that would apparently be just to OP. You better off just run a CAD and taking what ever formations you like as the detachment bonus isn't worth taking all the tax units in the "warband".

The thing that annoys me is why is Khorne the only god with a exclusive formation (again), i wouldn't mind but Khorne keeps getting formations when the other gods have nothing, even though Khorne has his own bloody codex.

I wish CSM had received god specific artifacts and warlord traits like Daemons had in wulfen.

Doubly so with the sheer amount of character we are forced to take with these formations.

From GW facebook.
Artwork from war zone fenris II

Woooooaaaaaa

wtf are those things?

 unmercifulconker wrote:
Woooooaaaaaa

wtf are those things?

Something that will never see play in the game because they are the size of a battle cruiser. But they look like crazy ass Chaos dropships.

40K/Necromunger crossover confirmed.

I feel like I should know...

What is the snake representing?

 DarkBlack wrote:
I feel like I should know...

What is the snake representing?

The Thousand Sons' Chapter Emblem is a snake devouring its own tail.

Silver Towers?

Cool...

Hmm, interesting, looking forward to that.

Outstanding!

I honestly did not expect Fenris Part 2, but I'm darn happy for it!

I just got my hands on plastic Void Shield Generator. I am happy to report that it is a high quality kit, easily on par with Armoured Munitorum Containers and Promethium Relay Pipes. In other words, it's lot better than Plasma Obliterator, any Wall of Martyrs piece or Age of Sigmar scenery.

The snake attacking the wolf in the space background, the cool landing crafts......this is so awesome.

These are CSM! They aren't allowed to have orbital drop ships.. They can only infiltrate D3 units per invasion.

Drop ships? I see battleships bombarding a Planet

Looks like Silver Towers of Tzeentch to me.

 Zywus wrote:
40K/Necromunger crossover confirmed.

Indeed

I seem to remember hearing that this is the final black crusade.

I bet the Thousand Sons lose.

 agnosto wrote:

 Zywus wrote:
40K/Necromunger crossover confirmed.

Indeed

Remember everything GW does is their own designs without any outside influence at all.

That said, I am surprised GW would make those awesome drop spikes. Didn't they have a policy no pictures if no minis, or is that no rules to no minis?

Davor wrote:

Spoiler:

 agnosto wrote:

 Zywus wrote:
40K/Necromunger crossover confirmed.

Indeed

Remember everything GW does is their own designs without any outside influence at all.

That said, I am surprised GW would make those awesome drop spikes. Didn't they have a policy no pictures if no minis, or is that no rules to no minis?

Heh, maybe we'll see silver towers for the forthcoming BFG relaunch, whenever that is.

That'd be pretty darn cool, actually.

Remember that the Thousand Sons aren't the only ones with a snake emblem...








Heil Hydra

I hope they include a core formation for Bran Redmaw's great company.

I custom built a model for him and everything...

 Kraytirous wrote:
Remember that the Thousand Sons aren't the only ones with a snake emblem...

Heil Hydra

I never thought of a Hydra as a snake though. Have I been wrong all these years?

A Hydra traditionally has legs, so I wouldn't say you're wrong.

That being said they are often depicted as having serpentine heads, too, so :shrug:.

The Snake however would be an excellent stand in for the Midgard Serpent, traditionally depicted in Norse mythology.

Davor wrote:

 Kraytirous wrote:
Remember that the Thousand Sons aren't the only ones with a snake emblem...

Heil Hydra

I never thought of a Hydra as a snake though. Have I been wrong all these years?

Off topic: The Greeks didn't really have serpents with legs in their mythology. The original art for the hydra looked like a snake with a lot of heads:




It also puts things into perspective regarding the Hercules thing when you realize the Greeks didn't really depict the hydra as a giant monster:

Comonly seen Hydra are lizards not snakes. Even though snakes are lizards to. Meh it's a mythological animal creature. So why even argue about it.

Anyway. I hope this means those Thousand Sons are coming.

 agnosto wrote:

Davor wrote:

 Kraytirous wrote:
Remember that the Thousand Sons aren't the only ones with a snake emblem...

Heil Hydra

I never thought of a Hydra as a snake though. Have I been wrong all these years?

Off topic: The Greeks didn't really have serpents with legs in their mythology. The original art for the hydra looked like a snake with a lot of heads:




It also puts things into perspective regarding the Hercules thing when you realize the Greeks didn't really depict the hydra as a giant monster:

That crab is so playing dirty pool!

Joyboozer wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

Davor wrote:

 Kraytirous wrote:
Remember that the Thousand Sons aren't the only ones with a snake emblem...

Heil Hydra

I never thought of a Hydra as a snake though. Have I been wrong all these years?

Off topic: The Greeks didn't really have serpents with legs in their mythology. The original art for the hydra looked like a snake with a lot of heads:




It also puts things into perspective regarding the Hercules thing when you realize the Greeks didn't really depict the hydra as a giant monster:

That crab is so playing dirty pool!

Took me a minute to see it. What a Ahole, reaching up for a mans jewels like that.

 redleger wrote:

Joyboozer wrote:

Spoiler:

 agnosto wrote:

Davor wrote:

 Kraytirous wrote:
Remember that the Thousand Sons aren't the only ones with a snake emblem...

Heil Hydra

I never thought of a Hydra as a snake though. Have I been wrong all these years?

Off topic: The Greeks didn't really have serpents with legs in their mythology. The original art for the hydra looked like a snake with a lot of heads:




It also puts things into perspective regarding the Hercules thing when you realize the Greeks didn't really depict the hydra as a giant monster:

That crab is so playing dirty pool!

Took me a minute to see it. What a Ahole, reaching up for a mans jewels like that.

Hydra Dominutsus.

A Serpent with legs is a Lindwurm, the Prototype of all Dragons from Western-Germanic Mythology.

Fighting Snakes, Serpents, Lindwurms or Dragons is typical for the Norse- and Western-Germanic Culture circle. Thor/Donar fights Jormungandr/Midgarsormr, Siegfried/Sigurd fights Fafnir. All the english and german medieval tales of heroes fighting Dragons....

Regarding the Call of Chaos painting event on Bolter & Chainsword, Atia said that "this is indeed great for all fans of Tzeentch" when the organizer said that although it starts Sept 15, you can join at any time before the deadline of Dec 15.

So it looks like we will have some of that stuff before Christmas. Nice to have Atia throwing hints around

Midgard serpent is often depicted as a serpent with legs and without encircling the world and long enough to bite it's own tail. Odin threw this son of loki into the sea where it grew..


Automatically Appended Next Post:
1000 sons symbol is pretty spot on

Not only is this epic art and a great teaser, and has Tzeentchy, but Pathro is totally about to devour Liono in the background. Win all around.

No one picked this up last night then?

That's been around for a while... Thanks though.

He did the model justice, I like edit: his head variant more though



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Link http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/325049-thousand-sons-sorcerer-30k-ahriman/page-13#entry4491657

 angelofvengeance wrote:
That's been around for a while... Thanks though.

Oh, I couldn't find a painted copy in this thread - only the sprues. If it's already been posted, apologies!