not only that, but a few options gives you the choice between hitting on a 3+ and wounding on a 4+ or hitting on a 4+ and wounding on a 3+. Which is statistically exactly the same thing, and really proves how shallow the game is.
Except that it's not once you start talking about buffs, since 3+/4+ and 4+/3+ are the same, but 2+/4+ and 3+/3+ are not the same. Neither is a 3+rr1s/4+ vs a 4+rr1s/3+. Or a 3+/3+ vs a 4+/2+.
It's only shallow if you don't actually think.
Compare to 40k, which seems deep, but then you realize that just taking Jetbikes, Grav, and LoWs in the maximum amount possible is the best answer to nearly every situation.
not only that, but a few options gives you the choice between hitting on a 3+ and wounding on a 4+ or hitting on a 4+ and wounding on a 3+. Which is statistically exactly the same thing, and really proves how shallow the game is.
Except that it's not once you start talking about buffs, since 3+/4+ and 4+/3+ are the same, but 2+/4+ and 3+/3+ are not the same. Neither is a 3+rr1s/4+ vs a 4+rr1s/3+. Or a 3+/3+ vs a 4+/2+.
It's only shallow if you don't actually think.
Compare to 40k, which seems deep, but then you realize that just taking Jetbikes, Grav, and LoWs in the maximum amount possible is the best answer to nearly every situation.
Ah yes, always taking those Ghaz and Dante and Azrael and Baneblades are the answers to every situation.
I can't believe people are still making that stupid statement about the LoW slot. It's like saying the Troop slot is broken because Scatterbikes exist.
not only that, but a few options gives you the choice between hitting on a 3+ and wounding on a 4+ or hitting on a 4+ and wounding on a 3+. Which is statistically exactly the same thing, and really proves how shallow the game is.
Except that it's not once you start talking about buffs, since 3+/4+ and 4+/3+ are the same, but 2+/4+ and 3+/3+ are not the same. Neither is a 3+rr1s/4+ vs a 4+rr1s/3+. Or a 3+/3+ vs a 4+/2+.
It's only shallow if you don't actually think.
Compare to 40k, which seems deep, but then you realize that just taking Jetbikes, Grav, and LoWs in the maximum amount possible is the best answer to nearly every situation.
Ah yes, always taking those Ghaz and Dante and Azrael and Baneblades are the answers to every situation.
I can't believe people are still making that stupid statement about the LoW slot. It's like saying the Troop slot is broken because Scatterbikes exist.
Don't be pedantic. LoW is much quicker to type than "appropriately costed SHVs/GCs".
Nobody talking about the LoW slot cares about characters - with very few exceptions made for Deathstar enablers like Draigo or Azrael. Everyone knows the LoW slot is 95% for SHVs or GCs, which are perhaps not singlehandedly messing up the meta, but are doing a darn good job at helping it screw up.
In case you somehow haven't seen this number it's appropriate for the week and we honestly need more of these kinds of 40K videos I didn't see it so sorry if someone brought this up already. Behold! Coming the Fall to a galaxy near you.
https://youtu.be/KWIpkrDmpx4
not only that, but a few options gives you the choice between hitting on a 3+ and wounding on a 4+ or hitting on a 4+ and wounding on a 3+. Which is statistically exactly the same thing, and really proves how shallow the game is.
Except that it's not once you start talking about buffs, since 3+/4+ and 4+/3+ are the same, but 2+/4+ and 3+/3+ are not the same. Neither is a 3+rr1s/4+ vs a 4+rr1s/3+. Or a 3+/3+ vs a 4+/2+.
It's only shallow if you don't actually think.
Compare to 40k, which seems deep, but then you realize that just taking Jetbikes, Grav, and LoWs in the maximum amount possible is the best answer to nearly every situation.
Ah yes, always taking those Ghaz and Dante and Azrael and Baneblades are the answers to every situation.
I can't believe people are still making that stupid statement about the LoW slot. It's like saying the Troop slot is broken because Scatterbikes exist.
Don't be pedantic. LoW is much quicker to type than "appropriately costed SHVs/GCs".
Nobody talking about the LoW slot cares about characters - with very few exceptions made for Deathstar enablers like Draigo or Azrael. Everyone knows the LoW slot is 95% for SHVs or GCs, which are perhaps not singlehandedly messing up the meta, but are doing a darn good job at helping it screw up.
You didn't type "SHVs/GCs". Write exactly what you mean. You're not rushed in making a post so be expected to be called out on dumb statements.
Also Wraithknights and Revenants are messed up, nothing else is.
not only that, but a few options gives you the choice between hitting on a 3+ and wounding on a 4+ or hitting on a 4+ and wounding on a 3+. Which is statistically exactly the same thing, and really proves how shallow the game is.
Except that it's not once you start talking about buffs, since 3+/4+ and 4+/3+ are the same, but 2+/4+ and 3+/3+ are not the same. Neither is a 3+rr1s/4+ vs a 4+rr1s/3+. Or a 3+/3+ vs a 4+/2+.
It's only shallow if you don't actually think.
Compare to 40k, which seems deep, but then you realize that just taking Jetbikes, Grav, and LoWs in the maximum amount possible is the best answer to nearly every situation.
Ah yes, always taking those Ghaz and Dante and Azrael and Baneblades are the answers to every situation.
I can't believe people are still making that stupid statement about the LoW slot. It's like saying the Troop slot is broken because Scatterbikes exist.
Don't be pedantic. LoW is much quicker to type than "appropriately costed SHVs/GCs".
Nobody talking about the LoW slot cares about characters - with very few exceptions made for Deathstar enablers like Draigo or Azrael. Everyone knows the LoW slot is 95% for SHVs or GCs, which are perhaps not singlehandedly messing up the meta, but are doing a darn good job at helping it screw up.
You didn't type "SHVs/GCs". Write exactly what you mean. You're not rushed in making a post so be expected to be called out on dumb statements.
Also Wraithknights and Revenants are messed up, nothing else is.
Adamantium Lance is still pretty insane, especially since you can bring FW Knights, or you can go with the tried and true 3-5 Objective Secured Knights with 2+ Summoning support. Properly built duo-Stormsurge lists are absolutely stupid to play against. Trip-Renegade Knight armies exist and are just as bad as you might think (oh yes 72 S6 AP3 Rending shots with Psychic support, that's fine).
Just because it's not won any tournaments doesn't mean something isn't insanely unhealthy for the meta and frustrating/unfun to play against. Both standard and Skathach Wraithknights are by and far the worst offenders, but by no means are they the only ones.
not only that, but a few options gives you the choice between hitting on a 3+ and wounding on a 4+ or hitting on a 4+ and wounding on a 3+. Which is statistically exactly the same thing, and really proves how shallow the game is.
Except that it's not once you start talking about buffs, since 3+/4+ and 4+/3+ are the same, but 2+/4+ and 3+/3+ are not the same. Neither is a 3+rr1s/4+ vs a 4+rr1s/3+. Or a 3+/3+ vs a 4+/2+.
It's only shallow if you don't actually think.
Compare to 40k, which seems deep, but then you realize that just taking Jetbikes, Grav, and LoWs in the maximum amount possible is the best answer to nearly every situation.
Absurd post to say the least, since grav guns are far from being the best choice in nearly all situation. Bring them against a daemon, a nid-ork-guard swarm army and see how well they will perform. And your example shows how shallow AOS is, cause it shows that a certain type of combinaison would always be preferable to another, under any circumstances. depending on the kinds of buff that are available to your army. In fact, the game is not shallow if you DON'T think
With the release of the renegades book, maybe we will see if Slaanesh is going to continue to be in the pantheon. I know 40k and AoS lore are seperate, but seems to be some parallels too. We shall see...
Uriels_Flame wrote: With the release of the renegades book, maybe we will see if Slaanesh is going to continue to be in the pantheon. I know 40k and AoS lore are seperate, but seems to be some parallels too. We shall see...
For the last time:
SLAANESH IS NOT GONE FROM AGE OF SIGMAR. That is garbage posting from BoLS/Faeit/Naftka.
Slaanesh is, as of this point in time, not able to exercise its power. That is why there is no Keeper of Secrets head on Dorghar(the heads are from the Champions sent to fight/test Archaon's resolve--Dorghar devoured them all after Archaon defeated them) but there is a Slaaneshi sigil on Archaon's shield(between Khorne and Nurgle).
Slaanesh is being held prisoner/sleeping off a bender of Aelf souls somewhere in the Realm of Shadow. Its followers are either seeking where it is to liberate/awaken it or outright squabbling amongst themselves for the chance to replace Slaanesh.
Uriels_Flame wrote: With the release of the renegades book, maybe we will see if Slaanesh is going to continue to be in the pantheon. I know 40k and AoS lore are seperate, but seems to be some parallels too. We shall see...
For the last time:
SLAANESH IS NOT GONE FROM AGE OF SIGMAR. That is garbage posting from BoLS/Faeit/Naftka.
Slaanesh is, as of this point in time, not able to exercise its power. That is why there is no Keeper of Secrets head on Dorghar(the heads are from the Champions sent to fight/test Archaon's resolve--Dorghar devoured them all after Archaon defeated them) but there is a Slaaneshi sigil on Archaon's shield(between Khorne and Nurgle).
Slaanesh is being held prisoner/sleeping off a bender of Aelf souls somewhere in the Realm of Shadow. Its followers are either seeking where it is to liberate/awaken it or outright squabbling amongst themselves for the chance to replace Slaanesh.
Unfortunately I'm sure it won't be the last time...
Uriels_Flame wrote: With the release of the renegades book, maybe we will see if Slaanesh is going to continue to be in the pantheon. I know 40k and AoS lore are seperate, but seems to be some parallels too. We shall see...
For the last time:
SLAANESH IS NOT GONE FROM AGE OF SIGMAR. That is garbage posting from BoLS/Faeit/Naftka.
Slaanesh is, as of this point in time, not able to exercise its power. That is why there is no Keeper of Secrets head on Dorghar(the heads are from the Champions sent to fight/test Archaon's resolve--Dorghar devoured them all after Archaon defeated them) but there is a Slaaneshi sigil on Archaon's shield(between Khorne and Nurgle).
Slaanesh is being held prisoner/sleeping off a bender of Aelf souls somewhere in the Realm of Shadow. Its followers are either seeking where it is to liberate/awaken it or outright squabbling amongst themselves for the chance to replace Slaanesh.
Unfortunately I'm sure it won't be the last time...
Uriels_Flame wrote: With the release of the renegades book, maybe we will see if Slaanesh is going to continue to be in the pantheon. I know 40k and AoS lore are seperate, but seems to be some parallels too. We shall see...
Well, since Artemis screwed up Eldrad's attempt to awaken Ynnead, how in the world would they shuffle Slaanesh off the stage? They wrote and released an event that could have potentially done that, and then had it foiled.
But, yeah, as other will say, Slaanesh doesn't seem to be gone from AoS just yet.
I am rather amused by the infighting in this thread, a wonderful and appropriate image for the impatient waiting of the coming Black Crusade.
I for one am happy to pay the points costs for the units in Codex: Chaos Space Marines as long as I get rules worth the points. If I'm paying 4 points more for a CSM than a Grey hunter with similar equipment, I want something to show for it. Formations are definitely the way to do this without investing in a book overhaul. I've been eagerly awaiting this sort of release for awhile. Gods show the Imperium mercy, because my Black Legion certainly won't!
Kraytirous wrote: I am rather amused by the infighting in this thread, a wonderful and appropriate image for the impatient waiting of the coming Black Crusade.
I for one am happy to pay the points costs for the units in Codex: Chaos Space Marines as long as I get rules worth the points. If I'm paying 4 points more for a CSM than a Grey hunter with similar equipment, I want something to show for it. Formations are definitely the way to do this without investing in a book overhaul. I've been eagerly awaiting this sort of release for awhile. Gods show the Imperium mercy, because my Black Legion certainly won't!
What? This is a Chaos rumours thread, you're not allowed to be positive here!
I just want information one way or another so I know whether I should drop a bunch of money on revamping my World Eaters or save it for something else.
Cheexsta wrote: What? This is a Chaos rumours thread, you're not allowed to be positive here!
One would need a reason to be positive. Chaos players haven't been given many, and an update to an ancient Codex (and two unnecessary supplements) doesn't exactly get us all mutated under the collar.
Cheexsta wrote: What? This is a Chaos rumours thread, you're not allowed to be positive here!
One would need a reason to be positive. Chaos players haven't been given many, and an update to an ancient Codex (and two unnecessary supplements) doesn't exactly get us all mutated under the collar.
Unfortunately agreed. Giving formations to over-priced units doesn't help with those same formations (or better) are given to your opponent's underpriced units.
I would love to be positive about this release, but I just can't.
Of course, by "positive" I mean that if CSM is made competitive, then orks can have the bottom all to themselves.
Now this is starting to sound like the Chaos release I was expecting.
- Plastic box of possessed with a Daemon Prince....and pass
- Kharn he's pretty sweet, but that price though. I'll probably still get him just to paint.
- A campaign book of potentially decent formations...well we'll see. According to the rumor mongers on B&C there limited in flexibility, so no cult theming.
- Psychic Cards for new lores...meh.
I'm hoping (and I'm fairly optimistic which could be foolish based on past chaos releases) that this is to tide chaos over rules wise, and then a new codex will be done whenever 8th ed comes out. I'd rather get a new codex in 8th than one now (obviously assuming it's done well in 8th which also is a pretty baseless assumption... But I'm in a weirdly uncharacteristic optimistic mood).
Yea even if this release is mediocre, that will be an improvement to how we've been treated. Improvement in small increments is ok by me. I agree this is just a holdover until 8th. If it is coming out next year, having a codex that will be obsolete in a matter of months is not a good thing IMO.
But if this release isn't absolute garbage, what with the Chaos players post about? Does this mean I'll no longer have a slew of posts in every thread to the point of "yeah but Chaos has it worse"?
Honestly I like the current space marine chapter tactic design and think it will make for a decent chaos version. I hope they incorporate the different demonkin supplements into the chaos dex as well. I like the current deathwatch design that allows unique units to replace generic units in formations. But I feel this supplement is just a way to add more formations and unique units to chaos and I believe the tzetch version in warzone fenris will do the same.
And since supplements don't have point costs minus relics they easily can be used in a new edition. Thus this supplement is just a boost until 8th.
I hope 40k takes from AoS the idea to post unit rules As download online and also include online all legal formation datasheets as well leaving the fluff, Weapon, special rules, relics, warlord traits, unique units and multi formstion detschments to the codex and supplements. Thus having basic rules available to play and know what's still legal and compatible. The main thing I hope from 8th is organized set of rules with some simplification and reduction on redundancy and less randomization with faster games. I don't expect w complete overhaul of rules.
Requizen wrote: But if this release isn't absolute garbage, what with the Chaos players post about? Does this mean I'll no longer have a slew of posts in every thread to the point of "yeah but Chaos has it worse"?
Good news! There are 4 chaos gods. I can assure you this update won't hit all of them!
But seriously, the army is quite outdated. It will require a full codex overhaul as well as a brand new direction for the way they've taken the army for the past 15 years for them to please me. So you can count on me to still use the 'chaos has it worse' mantra.
pepsuber wrote:Yea even if this release is mediocre, that will be an improvement to how we've been treated. Improvement in small increments is ok by me. I agree this is just a holdover until 8th. If it is coming out next year, having a codex that will be obsolete in a matter of months is not a good thing IMO.
Blood Angels players refer to that as the Black rage. On the bright side there are no band wagoners to deal with.
Requizen wrote:But if this release isn't absolute garbage, what with the Chaos players post about? Does this mean I'll no longer have a slew of posts in every thread to the point of "yeah but Chaos has it worse"?
The Sisters of Battle players are ready and able to fill that void.
Requizen wrote: But if this release isn't absolute garbage, what with the Chaos players post about? Does this mean I'll no longer have a slew of posts in every thread to the point of "yeah but Chaos has it worse"?
I see more people whine about Chaos players complaining than I do actual complaints about Chaos Space Marines.
Which is to say, it occurs, but is usually drowned out by people with (loyalist) Space Marine avatars going "OMG DO U EVER STOP WHINING CHAOS PLAYERS SUCH BABIES OMG DEY R THE WORST AMIRITE?"
Requizen wrote: But if this release isn't absolute garbage, what with the Chaos players post about? Does this mean I'll no longer have a slew of posts in every thread to the point of "yeah but Chaos has it worse"?
I see more people whine about Chaos players complaining than I do actual complaints about Chaos Space Marines.
Which is to say, it occurs, but is usually drowned out by people with (loyalist) Space Marine avatars going "OMG DO U EVER STOP WHINING CHAOS PLAYERS SUCH BABIES OMG DEY R THE WORST AMIRITE?"
You don't hang out in the Sororitas or Ork related threads. If you ever try to assert that Orks or Sororitas need a new codex more than any one else, you will be drowned in CSM player responses.
Requizen wrote: But if this release isn't absolute garbage, what with the Chaos players post about? Does this mean I'll no longer have a slew of posts in every thread to the point of "yeah but Chaos has it worse"?
I see more people whine about Chaos players complaining than I do actual complaints about Chaos Space Marines.
Which is to say, it occurs, but is usually drowned out by people with (loyalist) Space Marine avatars going "OMG DO U EVER STOP WHINING CHAOS PLAYERS SUCH BABIES OMG DEY R THE WORST AMIRITE?"
You don't hang out in the Sororitas or Ork related threads. If you ever try to assert that Orks or Sororitas need a new codex more than any one else, you will be drowned in CSM player responses.
This isn't an Ork or Sororitas thread though. It's a thread about a Chaos release. If you click on a thread about Chaos, what do you expect to see?
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: This isn't an Ork or Sororitas thread though. It's a thread about a Chaos release. If you click on a thread about Chaos, what do you expect to see?
I clearly expect to see CSM players complaining about the state of their codex.
Personally, I was just hoping we could keep it reasonably in check until we actually see what the new rules in Traitors Hate are.
I do disagree with Arbitrator's statement that there is more complaining about CSM player complaining, than actual CSM players complaining.
So in effect, I was complaining about Abritrators complaining, about non CSM people complaining, about CSM people complaining.
Did anyone pick up on the "End Times reference in the Deathwatch codex? I think it is in the timeline labeled "The Time of Ending". 40K is about to get Sigmared!! How does this fit on this thread? Well, right before Fantasy got Sigmared they gave us our wish lists. Now I see Genestealer Cult armies, Mechanicus armies, Deathwatch, and possibly CSM rules. Sucks that chaos only gets a year before Sigmaration resets everything.
Smellingsalts wrote: Did anyone pick up on the "End Times reference in the Deathwatch codex? I think it is in the timeline labeled "The Time of Ending". 40K is about to get Sigmared!! How does this fit on this thread? Well, right before Fantasy got Sigmared they gave us our wish lists. Now I see Genestealer Cult armies, Mechanicus armies, Deathwatch, and possibly CSM rules. Sucks that chaos only gets a year before Sigmaration resets everything.
Stop. 40k is not getting Sigmared. Every reliable source says it's not happening. Starting things like this only causes fighting.
What I read in the same posts is that elements of Sigmar are going to be incorporated into the new 40k. I actually like AOS so I see it as a good thing.
Smellingsalts wrote: What I read in the same posts is that elements of Sigmar are going to be incorporated into the new 40k. I actually like AOS so I see it as a good thing.
Which has absolutely nothing to do with what you posted about in this thread, and were subsequently jumped on for.
Game mechanics from AoS making their way into 40k? I don't think many people have issues with that.
"Sigmaring" the setting and completely starting over? Every reliable rumormonger points towards this not happening. "The Time of Ending"/"End Times"/"Whatever You Want to Call the End of the 40k Universe" is something that has been there for a loooooooooooooong time. It really is not even worth mentioning when you see something like that in a book.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
gungo wrote: Honestly I like the current space marine chapter tactic design and think it will make for a decent chaos version. I hope they incorporate the different demonkin supplements into the chaos dex as well. I like the current deathwatch design that allows unique units to replace generic units in formations. But I feel this supplement is just a way to add more formations and unique units to chaos and I believe the tzeentch version in warzone fenris will do the same.
Chapter Tactics are okay, but putting it bluntly? The "Combat Doctrines" bit is less than ideal.
adamsouza wrote: I clearly expect to see CSM players complaining about the state of their codex.
Personally, I was just hoping we could keep it reasonably in check until we actually see what the new rules in Traitors Hate are.
Realistically I'm not anticipating much in the way of new rules. I expect a rehash of the formations from the BL & CS supplements, a renaming (and possible nerfing) of the SM psychic powers, a compilation of existing dataslates from recent box sets (i.e., the now discontinued IK: Renegade) and a superformation that grants some kind of Hatred. Like a worse version of AoD.
Oh, and if Kharn gets new rules I expect him to no longer hit Invisible units on a 2+.
It would be nice to see the CSM marine units without plastic kits get produced, but if they are smart they will do a starter set that is Eldar vs. CSM when the new rules come out and release plastics for both armies and make a ton of cash all summer long!
The CSM codex is problematic... CSM pay more points for less effective versions of special rules. SM in a number of instances get for free what CSM must pay a steep price to recieve. It will take pretty significant additions to the rules to negate this without rewriting it.
Even before taking chapter tactics into account, ATSKNF by virtue of improving Marine unit longevity means a CSM squad needs between 13-14 CSM to equal them. When you add chapter tactics it becomes an even steeper disparity. GW would have to give us marks and icons for free just to equal what SM get for free.
This new book doesn't necessarily have to do that specifically but that's the mountain it has to climb to "fix" CSM without rewriting the codex.
I actually like the current layout of the CSM codex. We don't need Legion Tactics or anything. What we need are more rules and price adjustments. If we just made the basic CSM 12 a model and made the CCW upgrade 1 point, they'd be much more attractive for instance.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and Cult Terminators. We need those added.
My hope for Chaos is that GW have planned the Black crusade and other releases to lead up to a new CSM codex. Chaos has a lot of finecast models, several plastic kits that are in dire need of updating and some that are combos of both. The rumoured new Rubric kit will replace the finecast and plastic combo/upgrade set GW produce at the moment and I wouldn't be shocked to see at least one new Sorcerer model as well. If GW use other campaign books to release new versions of other cult or specialist troops that would free up resources to update core kits such as the basic CSM and Havoc kits when the codex is released.
The Chaos Space Marines need a complete reboot. I think it is fair to say the fluff writers, rules designers, and fan base are all on separate pages as to what CSM are. This new campaign book won't/can't fix that.
adamsouza wrote: I clearly expect to see CSM players complaining about the state of their codex.
Personally, I was just hoping we could keep it reasonably in check until we actually see what the new rules in Traitors Hate are.
Realistically I'm not anticipating much in the way of new rules. I expect a rehash of the formations from the BL & CS supplements, a renaming (and possible nerfing) of the SM psychic powers, a compilation of existing dataslates from recent box sets (i.e., the now discontinued IK: Renegade) and a superformation that grants some kind of Hatred. Like a worse version of AoD.
Oh, and if Kharn gets new rules I expect him to no longer hit Invisible units on a 2+.
We already know you failed already at predictions hopefully your not a follower of Tzetch.
here is some Information about the Preorders on Saturday:
Traitors Hate:
-Contains New Rules to Play alongside Codex: Chaos Space Marines
-New Tactical Objectives
- 4 new psychic trees
-11 new Formations, a new "decurion style" detachment (This is on top of the Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter 14 formations)
-Lord of Skulls Datasheet
- with new rules to add Renegade Knights to csm
Traitors Hate Limited Edition:
-6 Metal Tactical Objective Markers
-Exclusively Designed Heretic Psychic Astartes Psychic Powers Psychic cards
-36 Tactical Objective Cards
-136 Pages of Rules and Narrative
-Double sided Campaign map ( which means a new complete campaign centered on csm)
We already heard Kharn the Betrayer has a new rule (eternal warrior?) and rumoured rules to add him to demonkin.
So odds are something in that list is decent and odds are all these formstions will still be useful in any 8th edition reboot.
This is random. Are they going to drop the points finally or what? Upping the firepower to make it worth its points? This is the first time I've heard of this happening.
aka_mythos wrote: The CSM codex is problematic... CSM pay more points for less effective versions of special rules. SM in a number of instances get for free what CSM must pay a steep price to recieve. It will take pretty significant additions to the rules to negate this without rewriting it.
Even before taking chapter tactics into account, ATSKNF by virtue of improving Marine unit longevity means a CSM squad needs between 13-14 CSM to equal them. When you add chapter tactics it becomes an even steeper disparity. GW would have to give us marks and icons for free just to equal what SM get for free.
This new book doesn't necessarily have to do that specifically but that's the mountain it has to climb to "fix" CSM without rewriting the codex.
That assumes of course that CSM have a reason for existing that isn't "losing to SM". If not then CSM don't need a "fix" cuz they ain't broke.
adamsouza wrote: I clearly expect to see CSM players complaining about the state of their codex.
Personally, I was just hoping we could keep it reasonably in check until we actually see what the new rules in Traitors Hate are.
Realistically I'm not anticipating much in the way of new rules. I expect a rehash of the formations from the BL & CS supplements, a renaming (and possible nerfing) of the SM psychic powers, a compilation of existing dataslates from recent box sets (i.e., the now discontinued IK: Renegade) and a superformation that grants some kind of Hatred. Like a worse version of AoD.
Oh, and if Kharn gets new rules I expect him to no longer hit Invisible units on a 2+.
We already know you failed already at predictions hopefully your not a follower of Tzetch.
here is some Information about the Preorders on Saturday:
Traitors Hate:
-Contains New Rules to Play alongside Codex: Chaos Space Marines
-New Tactical Objectives
- 4 new psychic trees
-11 new Formations, a new "decurion style" detachment (This is on top of the Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter 14 formations)
-Lord of Skulls Datasheet
- with new rules to add Renegade Knights to csm
Traitors Hate Limited Edition:
-6 Metal Tactical Objective Markers
-Exclusively Designed Heretic Psychic Astartes Psychic Powers Psychic cards
-36 Tactical Objective Cards
-136 Pages of Rules and Narrative
-Double sided Campaign map ( which means a new complete campaign centered on csm)
We already heard Kharn the Betrayer has a new rule (eternal warrior?) and rumoured rules to add him to demonkin.
So odds are something in that list is decent and odds are all these formstions will still be useful in any 8th edition reboot.
I really hope that this book isn't just a fusion of BL and CS supplements with some more Khorne thrown in. If it is like AoD, it will just have the same stuff reprinted, which is a slap to the face of any player who has the original supplements.
Curious how they're going to integrate C:SM with Renegade Knights, opposed to keeping them separate.
I'm always hopefuly for Chaos, Because I desperately want to use the the cyclopia cabal formation, and make an army all around it. But... I can't justify them, due to poor performance.
I know AoSing or Sigmaring 40K means different things to different people but I'm hoping 40K just becomes less cluttered and a simpler set of rules so datasheets and formations let you make the game more strategetic in that fashion. Not the same exact mechanics as AoS, obviously. And not the fluff, though I'm super excited to see how the fluff develops with the continuation of what started with Fenris and now Traitor's Hate (great name ).
This is random. Are they going to drop the points finally or what? Upping the firepower to make it worth its points? This is the first time I've heard of this happening.
It's not in the original Codex: Chaos Space Marines so if you had that but never bought Escalation or KDK, you don't have access to rules for a Lord of War for Chaos Space Marines. So it makes sense in that context. Likewise with Renegade Knights.
angelofvengeance wrote: Maybe that's why GW brought Mat Ward back? For some massively over the top CSM stuff. Abaddon is all CSM's spiritual liege kinda crap.
He's writing something for BL from that tweet he made. Though he could also be secretly controlling the Sigmarine statue in front of HQ like some diabolical gold golem. The second part is ...unconfirmed.
angelofvengeance wrote: Maybe that's why GW brought Mat Ward back? For some massively over the top CSM stuff. Abaddon is all CSM's spiritual liege kinda crap.
Well Abaddon is the Chapter Master of the Chaos Space Marines afterall. That's why he's the only Chaos Lord with 4 wounds and 4 attacks.
Smellingsalts wrote: What I read in the same posts is that elements of Sigmar are going to be incorporated into the new 40k. I actually like AOS so I see it as a good thing.
Which has absolutely nothing to do with what you posted about in this thread, and were subsequently jumped on for.
Game mechanics from AoS making their way into 40k? I don't think many people have issues with that.
".
I beg to disagree. If 40k become as shallow as aos, im pretty sure a lots of players will have issues with it. The only thing i would like to see from aos in 40k is the impact of wounds on mc fighting abilities
Smellingsalts wrote: What I read in the same posts is that elements of Sigmar are going to be incorporated into the new 40k. I actually like AOS so I see it as a good thing.
Which has absolutely nothing to do with what you posted about in this thread, and were subsequently jumped on for.
Game mechanics from AoS making their way into 40k? I don't think many people have issues with that.
".
I beg to disagree. If 40k become as shallow as aos, im pretty sure a lots of players will have issues with it. The only thing i would like to see from aos in 40k is the impact of wounds on mc fighting abilities
Have you ever actually played AoS?
There's a lot of stuff in there which streamlined the game and made it a hell of a lot more intuitive than having to consult WS/BS charts all the time.
angelofvengeance wrote: Maybe that's why GW brought Mat Ward back? For some massively over the top CSM stuff. Abaddon is all CSM's spiritual liege kinda crap.
He will make renegade Renegades, so treacherous they defect from their Legions (or very important warbands like Crimson Slaughter who are wayyy cooler than those stuffy old guys, anyway) to pretend to be wannabe Grey Knights, because GKs are the BESTEST!!1 Berzerkers with psy-cannons, Nurgle Dreadno, err, Hellbrutes strapped into Nemesis Knights and Noise Marines singing praise to our lord and saviour Draigo.
streetsamurai wrote: Yes. And i found it to be extremely boring, childish and shallow. Different stroke for different folk.
Criticism I commonly hear from people who play one game while having the mindset of "I don't like this and don't want to".
Especially the bit about it being "childish".
The thing i really want to see with 8th edition is the removal of formation. These things are a mess and are bloating the game for no good reason
They're only a mess and bloating the game if you don't actually understand how to properly use them.
Formations are far preferable to the garbage that is the CAD.
And you consult bs/ws chart all the time??? Weird, i find the calculation really easy to do, and never ever consult them
Yeah, I consult the WS chart quite often. So? It wasn't well done for 40k.
There's also this other component of playing the game called "an opponent" and not all opponents know these tables by heart. Having the value tied directly to the weapon rather than the wielder is faaaaaaaaaar simpler.
Well, since you need to use the tables to determine the to hit rolls, i can understand why you like simpler games, and are a fan of aos.
And i have to laugh at your lame arrogant rebuttal of a diverging opinion. Guess you are too young to be mature enough to realise that your own opinion is not the objective truth.
streetsamurai wrote: Well, since you need to use the tables to determine the to hit rolls, i can understand why you like simpler games, and are a fan of aos.
Did you actually read the comment made or no?
Figuring out Ballistic Skill rolls is fairly easy(7 minus the firing model's Ballistic Skill=the roll needed To Hit)...but that doesn't really help new players who haven't played much. They'll likely end up consulting their main rulebooks(where the table is listed). AoS made it so that is tied to the Warscroll of a model, with beneficial modifiers listed on the firing unit's Warscroll and detrimental modifiers listed on the fired at unit's Warscroll.
Figuring out Weapon Skill rolls? There's no easy way to do that beyond rote memorization. There is no sensible pattern beyond the fact that it caps out at a minimum of 3+'s to hit and that comes from you hitting anything BELOW your Weapon Skill, 4'+s to hit against the same Weapon Skill, and 5+'s for anything above your Weapon Skill. 6+'s to hit can happen but are related to specific circumstances(Psyker abilities or the like).
So please, tell me again why it is a bad thing to have the simpler option that AoS has?
And i have to laugh at your lame rebuttal of a diverging opinion. Guess you are too young to be mature enough to realise that your own opinion is not the objective truth
If you want to talk about "laughing at lame rebuttals" or insult someone's age and maturity level...
The term you're looking for isn't "diverging" opinion but rather "differing". Nobody says that their opinion is "diverging" from another individual's opinion. They say that their opinion "differs".
For the record, I didn't say that your opinion was outweighed by mine nor that my own opinion was "the objective truth". I simply stated that your criticisms are commonly espoused by those who go into it with the mindset of "I don't like this and don't want to". If you had said that it was different strokes for different folks and you found it boring and shallow? That'd have been fine--as you said, different strokes for different folks.
But what about AoS is so "childish"? The fact you that all the rules you really need are printed on the warscrolls?
I still stand by my stance of the Combined Arms Detachment being garbage though. That thing really ceased to be relevant ages ago and the continued existence of it is far more detrimental to the game than beneficial.
streetsamurai wrote: Well, since you need to use the tables to determine the to hit rolls, i can understand why you like simpler games, and are a fan of aos.
And i have to laugh at your lame arrogant rebuttal of a diverging opinion. Guess you are too young to be mature enough to realise that your own opinion is not the objective truth.
Dont bother replying, youre on my ignore list
Back-handed comments still makes yours lame and not within the board rules. But feel free to add me to the list too since I disagree with you.
We don't get releases very often so we really need to take full advantage of this opportunity for on-topic whinging to the fullest extent permitted by law. For those of you who enjoy CSM belly-aching I think you're in for a real treat this week!
streetsamurai wrote: Well, since you need to use the tables to determine the to hit rolls, i can understand why you like simpler games, and are a fan of aos.
And i have to laugh at your lame arrogant rebuttal of a diverging opinion. Guess you are too young to be mature enough to realise that your own opinion is not the objective truth.
Dont bother replying, youre on my ignore list
Back-handed comments still makes yours lame and not within the board rules. But feel free to add me to the list too since I disagree with you.
I dont mind someone disagreeing with me. I do mind when he does it in an arrogant manner
I'm not keen on the setting getting AoS'd but the rules as they stand could well do with it. Might make people start playing again.
As for chaos. Safe to say if gw don't fix them for 8th a lot of people will likely just drop them and use another army. My chaos uses the space marine dex as the chaos book is unplayable. Daemonkin were ok but not enough to make it worthwhile.
streetsamurai wrote: Well, since you need to use the tables to determine the to hit rolls, i can understand why you like simpler games, and are a fan of aos.
And i have to laugh at your lame arrogant rebuttal of a diverging opinion. Guess you are too young to be mature enough to realise that your own opinion is not the objective truth.
Dont bother replying, youre on my ignore list
Back-handed comments still makes yours lame and not within the board rules. But feel free to add me to the list too since I disagree with you.
I dont mind someone disagreeing with me. I do mind when he does it in an arrogant manner
A bit off topic, but when is the second HH box with the thousands sons supposed to be relase? really wager to see how they look like and if they will be similar enough to 40k to be usable in that setting (arihman does look pretty similar to his 40k setting)
angelofvengeance wrote: Maybe that's why GW brought Mat Ward back? For some massively over the top CSM stuff. Abaddon is all CSM's spiritual liege kinda crap.
I suppose ''Abaddon the Spiritual Liege'' is better than ''Failbaddon is an incompetent failure,'' that he so often gets.
Well i guess of the primarch really are coming back has it is rumoured, Abadon will probably get a major upgrading in power, cause i doubt that they want him to play second fiddle
I dunno. I'll still continue to play CSM even if they stay gakky. I'll bitch like hell - because it's amusing to me, to bitch - but I'll keep playing them.
And on the bright side I find that CSM are actually perfect for stupid games against opponents who are just starting out and aren't really familiar with the game or the rules. And when I say "stupid games" I'm talking real pants-on-head stupid here. Like taking-a-full-army-of-cultists-and-20-man-unupgraded-CSM-squads-and-then-stacking-5-Eternity-Stairs-on-top-of-each-other-in-the-middle-of-your-unpainted-Realm-of-Battle-and-putting-The-Relic-at-the-very-top stupid. Just as dumb as you can get. God what a simultaneously awful and magical experience. I can't wait for Age of Emprah!
streetsamurai wrote: Well i guess of the primarch really are coming back has it is rumoured, Abadon will probably get a major upgrading in power, cause i doubt that they want him to play second fiddle
Didn't Abaddon defeat a primarch in one of the books? Before getting Drach'nyen too.
Motograter wrote: Shame if its not. 7th ed needs to die and 40K is desperate for a new direction. What better than a complete redo. Hell game needs it
Sad Panda/Atia have both stated that there is a new edition in the works.
Sad Panda has also been fairly adamant that it is not a "Sigmaring" of the setting however.
Does the mean the setting like Aos got rid of Fantasy? So does this mean that the rules can be Simgmared?
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Less AoS, more complaining about CSM please!
We don't get releases very often so we really need to take full advantage of this opportunity for on-topic whinging to the fullest extent permitted by law. For those of you who enjoy CSM belly-aching I think you're in for a real treat this week!
Motograter wrote: Shame if its not. 7th ed needs to die and 40K is desperate for a new direction. What better than a complete redo. Hell game needs it
Sad Panda/Atia have both stated that there is a new edition in the works.
Sad Panda has also been fairly adamant that it is not a "Sigmaring" of the setting however.
Does the mean the setting like Aos got rid of Fantasy? So does this mean that the rules can be Simgmared?
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Less AoS, more complaining about CSM please!
We don't get releases very often so we really need to take full advantage of this opportunity for on-topic whinging to the fullest extent permitted by law. For those of you who enjoy CSM belly-aching I think you're in for a real treat this week!
Oh this is just beautiful
Well done.
Anybody who doesn't understand why long time chaos players who have spent thousands on GW products over the past two decades or so might have legitimate gripes about the state of chaos in recent years either has a myopic view of the game or is a troll. Or both...
But by all means continue with the condescending banter.
Motograter wrote: Shame if its not. 7th ed needs to die and 40K is desperate for a new direction. What better than a complete redo. Hell game needs it
Sad Panda/Atia have both stated that there is a new edition in the works.
Sad Panda has also been fairly adamant that it is not a "Sigmaring" of the setting however.
Does the mean the setting like Aos got rid of Fantasy? So does this mean that the rules can be Simgmared?
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Less AoS, more complaining about CSM please!
We don't get releases very often so we really need to take full advantage of this opportunity for on-topic whinging to the fullest extent permitted by law. For those of you who enjoy CSM belly-aching I think you're in for a real treat this week!
Oh this is just beautiful
Well done.
Anybody who doesn't understand why long time chaos players who have spent thousands on GW products over the past two decades or so might have legitimate gripes about the state of chaos in recent years either has a myopic view of the game or is a troll. Or both...
But by all means continue with the condescending banter.
Condescending? When it comes to CSM griping I'm the worst offender! (Ok, maybe second worst after Experiment626.) I really am looking forward to this week's releases because a) I love me some CSM complaining and b) I'm a masochist. C'mon, GW! Do your worst!
Given that GW so seldom seem to achieve what they intend, by baiting them to do their worst, Traitor's Hate may now actually be ok.
Above average even.
That would be a disaster! Given there is about a 0% chance this supplement makes CSM actually good, I would be genuinely dissappointed if it made them less bad. If we can't enjoy playing the army at least let us continue to enjoy complaining about how bad it is!
streetsamurai wrote: Well i guess of the primarch really are coming back has it is rumoured, Abadon will probably get a major upgrading in power, cause i doubt that they want him to play second fiddle
Didn't Abaddon defeat a primarch in one of the books? Before getting Drach'nyen too.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: We don't get releases very often so we really need to take full advantage of this opportunity for on-topic whinging to the fullest extent permitted by law. For those of you who enjoy CSM belly-aching I think you're in for a real treat this week!
I, for one, can't wait to see how my Word Bearers, Alpha Legion, Death Guard and Iron Warriors have been completely ignored again in favour of the Black "Of all the Legions, why did we get a special book?" Legion, and Generic Studio Army #3348-H... the Crimson... something, or whatever they're called.
And it's going to be so awesome when we get the army-wide special rule that lets us cause Fear!
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: We don't get releases very often so we really need to take full advantage of this opportunity for on-topic whinging to the fullest extent permitted by law. For those of you who enjoy CSM belly-aching I think you're in for a real treat this week!
I, for one, can't wait to see how my Word Bearers, Alpha Legion, Death Guard and Iron Warriors have been completely ignored again in favour of the Black "Of all the Legions, why did we get a special book?" Legion, and Generic Studio Army #3348-H... the Crimson... something, or whatever they're called.
And it's going to be so awesome when we get the army-wide special rule that lets us cause Fear!
Don't worry. I'm sure by the time Age of Emprah rolls around they'll have "advanced the plot" far enough that all the warbands of those former legions will have joined the Black Legion (or Crimson Slaughter for some reason whateverwhocaresamirite?)
Motograter wrote: Shame if its not. 7th ed needs to die and 40K is desperate for a new direction. What better than a complete redo. Hell game needs it
Sad Panda/Atia have both stated that there is a new edition in the works.
Sad Panda has also been fairly adamant that it is not a "Sigmaring" of the setting however.
Does the mean the setting like Aos got rid of Fantasy? So does this mean that the rules can be Simgmared?
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Less AoS, more complaining about CSM please!
We don't get releases very often so we really need to take full advantage of this opportunity for on-topic whinging to the fullest extent permitted by law. For those of you who enjoy CSM belly-aching I think you're in for a real treat this week!
Oh this is just beautiful
Well done.
Anybody who doesn't understand why long time chaos players who have spent thousands on GW products over the past two decades or so might have legitimate gripes about the state of chaos in recent years either has a myopic view of the game or is a troll. Or both...
But by all means continue with the condescending banter.
Please explain to me how am I condescending? First quote I did was I asking how he was taking "setting aspect". Second quote I thought it was funny what the person said. So how am I trolling here? I was giving him praise for being funny and making me laugh?
How that is condescending is beyond me. Please explain.
Jehan-reznor wrote: I hope they will return focus on the original traitor chapters and not invent some new warbands
Not looking hopeful on the legion front. They're shoehorning in Crimson Slaughter. A warband that didn't exist the first time Chaos won the 13th Black Crusade. A warband they created for the sole purpose of being the red CSM to complement the Dark Angels color scheme in the starter set but didn't want to use Word Bearers becuz Chaos is warbanz.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: We don't get releases very often so we really need to take full advantage of this opportunity for on-topic whinging to the fullest extent permitted by law. For those of you who enjoy CSM belly-aching I think you're in for a real treat this week!
I, for one, can't wait to see how my Word Bearers, Alpha Legion, Death Guard and Iron Warriors have been completely ignored again in favour of the Black "Of all the Legions, why did we get a special book?" Legion, and Generic Studio Army #3348-H... the Crimson... something, or whatever they're called.
And it's going to be so awesome when we get the army-wide special rule that lets us cause Fear!
My Death Guard continue to look on in distaste from their position on top of the pile of corpses of their slain foes. (By Papa Nurgle i love playing them in Heralds of Ruin Kill team)
Meh, i wasnt all that inspired. Now, some of their relics are definitely neat and i will give props n the Possessed mutation chart. I actually thought theirs was kinda cool.
Azreal13 wrote: There's nothing about Crimson Laughter that wouldn't have been better served being incorporated into a Word Bearers supplement.
Not to knock an original chapter like word bearers but Crimson slaughter is a much cooler name for a chaos faction. It's also cooler representing the fact chaos space marines still had more recent chapters and possessed and aren't just a slowly dying force of 30k marines. But like demonkin chaos space marines have a lot more variety than just emo space marines.
Crimson Slaughter is the embodiment of GW's modern approach to CSM. A contrivance whose sole reason for existence is to serve as a foil for the heroes. Giving them their own supplement was a huge slap in the face to all the fans of the forgotten downplayed traitor legions, who gravitated to the army back in the day when there were still studio members who actually had a vision for the faction as something more than target practice for SM.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: We don't get releases very often so we really need to take full advantage of this opportunity for on-topic whinging to the fullest extent permitted by law. For those of you who enjoy CSM belly-aching I think you're in for a real treat this week!
I, for one, can't wait to see how my Word Bearers, Alpha Legion, Death Guard and Iron Warriors have been completely ignored again in favour of the Black "Of all the Legions, why did we get a special book?" Legion, and Generic Studio Army #3348-H... the Crimson... something, or whatever they're called.
And it's going to be so awesome when we get the army-wide special rule that lets us cause Fear!
At least Death Guard plague stuff has been usable since 4th.
Azreal13 wrote: There's nothing about Crimson Laughter that wouldn't have been better served being incorporated into a Word Bearers supplement.
Not to knock an original chapter like word bearers but Crimson slaughter is a much cooler name for a chaos faction. It's also cooler representing the fact chaos space marines still had more recent chapters and possessed and aren't just a slowly dying force of 30k marines. But like demonkin chaos space marines have a lot more variety than just emo space marines.
Kanluwen wrote: Figuring out Weapon Skill rolls? There's no easy way to do that beyond rote memorization. There is no sensible pattern beyond the fact that it caps out at a minimum of 3+'s to hit and that comes from you hitting anything BELOW your Weapon Skill, 4'+s to hit against the same Weapon Skill, and 5+'s for anything above your Weapon Skill. 6+'s to hit can happen but are related to specific circumstances(Psyker abilities or the like).
Umm you realize to hit chart 100% follows simple formula? There's no exceptions, no irregularities. It's absolutely NOT needed for rote memorization. If you are trying to remember that by rote memorization you are doing it wrong.
You rote memory something that's irregular and full of exception. You don't rote memorize something that follows pattern. You rote memorize irregular verbs. You rote memorize value of pi to whatever decimals you want. You don't rote memorize every regular verb. I would be stupid as hell to rote memorize how to conjugate japanese verb for eat, open door, making tea etc when all those follow SAME RULE. Instead I learn that rule and then can whoops figure out conjugation for specific verb just like that.
Similary you don't rote memorize that stupid chart. The rule to create it is so simple anybody past 2nd grade can do it. And in return it makes it that grot isn't hitting avatar of god of war same as hitting a rock.
Azreal13 wrote: There's nothing about Crimson Laughter that wouldn't have been better served being incorporated into a Word Bearers supplement.
Not to knock an original chapter like word bearers but Crimson slaughter is a much cooler name for a chaos faction. It's also cooler representing the fact chaos space marines still had more recent chapters and possessed and aren't just a slowly dying force of 30k marines. But like demonkin chaos space marines have a lot more variety than just emo space marines.
That is a matter of your personal opinion, which differs from a lot of other CSM players, myself included. Crimson sLaughter is a bad joke to a very large number of us.
Azreal13 wrote: There's nothing about Crimson Laughter that wouldn't have been better served being incorporated into a Word Bearers supplement.
Not to knock an original chapter like word bearers but Crimson slaughter is a much cooler name for a chaos faction. It's also cooler representing the fact chaos space marines still had more recent chapters and possessed and aren't just a slowly dying force of 30k marines. But like demonkin chaos space marines have a lot more variety than just emo space marines.
That is a matter of your personal opinion, which differs from a lot of other CSM players, myself included. Crimson sLaughter is a bad joke to a very large number of us.
A very large number of you should take things less personally methinks.
Crimson Slaughter is cool.
Word Bearers are cool.
Get over it?
Not directly responding to you, mind you.
Azreal13 wrote: There's nothing about Crimson Laughter that wouldn't have been better served being incorporated into a Word Bearers supplement.
Not to knock an original chapter like word bearers but Crimson slaughter is a much cooler name for a chaos faction. It's also cooler representing the fact chaos space marines still had more recent chapters and possessed and aren't just a slowly dying force of 30k marines. But like demonkin chaos space marines have a lot more variety than just emo space marines.
That is a matter of your personal opinion, which differs from a lot of other CSM players, myself included. Crimson sLaughter is a bad joke to a very large number of us.
A very large number of you should take things less personally methinks.
Crimson Slaughter is cool.
Word Bearers are cool.
Get over it?
Not directly responding to you, mind you.
Motograter wrote: Shame if its not. 7th ed needs to die and 40K is desperate for a new direction. What better than a complete redo. Hell game needs it
Sad Panda/Atia have both stated that there is a new edition in the works.
Sad Panda has also been fairly adamant that it is not a "Sigmaring" of the setting however.
Does the mean the setting like Aos got rid of Fantasy? So does this mean that the rules can be Simgmared?
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Less AoS, more complaining about CSM please!
We don't get releases very often so we really need to take full advantage of this opportunity for on-topic whinging to the fullest extent permitted by law. For those of you who enjoy CSM belly-aching I think you're in for a real treat this week!
Oh this is just beautiful
Well done.
No. See other reply later on. The setting is ok but the rules are complete crap. Though to be fair when they did destroy the old world and brought in AoS I thought it was brilliant as fantasy sucked hard
And here is where we revert to yet another fight over AoS when we are in a 40k thread.....
Looking at the prices for the Limited Edition, I simply cannot justify 185 bucks for that. the regular edition plus the cards, that I can defiantly afford. However, if people want to spend more money on the LE than they would an Imperial Knight, they are more than welcome though. I wish you could have bought the tactical cards separate as well without having to buy the LE.
Can I ask for opinions on why a similar system to chapter tactics for the Chaos Legions would be a good or bad thing?
Maybe throw in a couple of generic ones as well to represent the Renegades (Red Corsairs) and more daemony groups (Crimson Slaughter)
Some people want a chapter tactic like thing, however I like the mark system. Make it a bit better and make it free in certain situations. You want normal marines that are already expensive, and want to make them tougher, give the MoN. oh no now they are prohibitively expensive. The same can not be said about normal SMs. which is why I think the butt hurt happens. So the good thing is that it would bring them in line more closely to the no gak counter parts on the false emperor side, since they are technically marines with extra cool stuff to make them better, thanks to the blessing of a particular god. If you want to play unaligned, then you get no blessings, but you are not paying as much per squad member, so it can make up for it. I think the mark system is an original way to make CSM more chaos like, but it is just not capapble of keeping up with the creep of power of the last 4 years that has hit every other army, even if they do still lag behind, they all got to creep up, except CSM.
Also the majority of players have painted their army to reflect a certain god. So to continously be denied a cult or daemonkin or legion book is why they get so mad. There is fluff for every CSM legion and yet we can not represent it, when Space Marines can. I think if you could take a fluffy night lords army, it would make more people happy. Right now it just isnt possible.
redleger wrote: Also the majority of players have painted their army to reflect a certain god. So to continously be denied a cult or daemonkin or legion book is why they get so mad. There is fluff for every CSM legion and yet we can not represent it, when Space Marines can. I think if you could take a fluffy night lords army, it would make more people happy. Right now it just isnt possible.
Funny. In 2nd ed there's no legion/whatever rules either yet people are able to create fluffy night lords army.
redleger wrote: Also the majority of players have painted their army to reflect a certain god. So to continously be denied a cult or daemonkin or legion book is why they get so mad. There is fluff for every CSM legion and yet we can not represent it, when Space Marines can. I think if you could take a fluffy night lords army, it would make more people happy. Right now it just isnt possible.
Funny. In 2nd ed there's no legion/whatever rules either yet people are able to create fluffy night lords army.
In 2nd ed people were able to create a fluffy squat army. Things have moved on snce then.
redleger wrote: Also the majority of players have painted their army to reflect a certain god. So to continously be denied a cult or daemonkin or legion book is why they get so mad. There is fluff for every CSM legion and yet we can not represent it, when Space Marines can. I think if you could take a fluffy night lords army, it would make more people happy. Right now it just isnt possible.
Funny. In 2nd ed there's no legion/whatever rules either yet people are able to create fluffy night lords army.
The game was different then and so was the codex. From 3rd onward, barring 3.5 (aka the golden age or should that be the iron age ) the freedom to make fluffy traitor armies was all but gutted.
Even though I sincerely doubt we'll see either in Traitors Hate, I think CSM chapter tactics for unaligned forces, and free marks for cult forces, would be a great idea.
I don't play 30K, do either Loyalist or Renegade Marines have chapter tactics in 30K, or are they something that loyalists developed over the last 10K years ?
adamsouza wrote: Even though I sincerely doubt we'll see either in Traitors Hate, I think CSM chapter tactics for unaligned forces, and free marks for cult forces, would be a great idea.
I don't play 30K, do either Loyalist or Renegade Marines have chapter tactics in 30K, or are they something that loyalists developed over the last 10K years ?
Every legion has their own legion rules and specific characters, units and wargear in 30k.
redleger wrote: Also the majority of players have painted their army to reflect a certain god. So to continously be denied a cult or daemonkin or legion book is why they get so mad. There is fluff for every CSM legion and yet we can not represent it, when Space Marines can. I think if you could take a fluffy night lords army, it would make more people happy. Right now it just isnt possible.
Funny. In 2nd ed there's no legion/whatever rules either yet people are able to create fluffy night lords army.
The game was different then and so was the codex. From 3rd onward, barring 3.5 (aka the golden age or should that be the iron age ) the freedom to make fluffy traitor armies was all but gutted.
So what prevents it? Why you need special snowflake rules to make fluffy list when 2nd ed you didn't? Apart from dinobots etc new inventions units are pretty much same. And those aren't needed for fluffy night lords anyway.
Yeah, the HH books that FW make are the gold standard as far as I'm concerned when it comes to using the same core list and writing rules for all the Legions off of that singular list. Apply that to 40K for Marines, Chaos Marines, Craftworld Eldar, Ork Klanz, hell, even Hive Fleets and Necron Dynasties and you'd have some amazing rules and variety in there.
redleger wrote: Also the majority of players have painted their army to reflect a certain god. So to continously be denied a cult or daemonkin or legion book is why they get so mad. There is fluff for every CSM legion and yet we can not represent it, when Space Marines can. I think if you could take a fluffy night lords army, it would make more people happy. Right now it just isnt possible.
Funny. In 2nd ed there's no legion/whatever rules either yet people are able to create fluffy night lords army.
The game was different then and so was the codex. From 3rd onward, barring 3.5 (aka the golden age or should that be the iron age ) the freedom to make fluffy traitor armies was all but gutted.
So what prevents it? Why you need special snowflake rules to make fluffy list when 2nd ed you didn't? Apart from dinobots etc new inventions units are pretty much same. And those aren't needed for fluffy night lords anyway.
By that logic, you don't need them for loyalist chapters either, yet they have them. Why shouldn't Chaos, when they have as much if not more variety between the different legions/forces?
redleger wrote: Also the majority of players have painted their army to reflect a certain god. So to continously be denied a cult or daemonkin or legion book is why they get so mad. There is fluff for every CSM legion and yet we can not represent it, when Space Marines can. I think if you could take a fluffy night lords army, it would make more people happy. Right now it just isnt possible.
Funny. In 2nd ed there's no legion/whatever rules either yet people are able to create fluffy night lords army.
The game was different then and so was the codex. From 3rd onward, barring 3.5 (aka the golden age or should that be the iron age ) the freedom to make fluffy traitor armies was all but gutted.
So what prevents it? Why you need special snowflake rules to make fluffy list when 2nd ed you didn't? Apart from dinobots etc new inventions units are pretty much same. And those aren't needed for fluffy night lords anyway.
A big reason was that 2nd edition let you mix and match things a bit better. Now I'm going back close to 20 years so my memory is a bit vague and I don't feel like busting out my PDF of the 2nd edition book to check, but army building was different then. Stats were different. Options were different. It was easier to build a fluffy type of army. Also remember that there wasn't a lot of things then in the same way as there is now. A "fluffy" NIght Lords force in 2nd edition basically just didn't use daemons, because there were no Raptors/Warp Talons. A fluffy Iron Warriors force maybe just had more tanks, but there were no Obliterators or Chaos Vindicators and such, I can't even remember if there was a Chaos Land Raider back then, but there might have been. "fluff" came down to your choice of colors and that was basically it, because you were taking the same units. In fact, back in those days there wasn't even much care about what legion you picked, it was almost completely "I like the fluff/colors of this one" and that was it. There was no other reason to pick Night Lords over Word Bearers or Alpha Legion.
As the game evolves, there are more options to allow for fluffy beyond "My guys are Night Lords because they're painted dark blue with lightning" which is basically what you had back then anyways, since there wasn't anything in the list to point towards one legion or another, it was color and if you used cult troops/daemons, and that was virtually it. Sure, your Iron Warrior list might maybe use more Terminators and tanks, maybe you didn't use Bikes at all but the Night Lord player used a lot of bikers, things like that.
It's not really the same. Besides the argument here can be turned around: Space Marines don't need special snowflake rules either. Other than Space Wolves who are different enough, Blood Angels and Dark Angels maybe need one unique unit; if that, they don't need a completely different set of things. You could play a fluffy Imperial Fists or Iron Hands force in 2nd edition too, why do they need special rules now?
So what prevents it? Why you need special snowflake rules to make fluffy list when 2nd ed you didn't? Apart from dinobots etc new inventions units are pretty much same. And those aren't needed for fluffy night lords anyway.
well, 2nd edition was actually a hell of a lot more flexible than a lot of the subsequent lists, so you didn't particularly require individual Legion rules, following the Night Lords example:
- We had Chaos Space Marine Veterans with Infiltrate and Dispersed Formation as part of our 25%+ Squads allowance - want a Night Lords force making heavy use of infiltrators? go for it! don't need a named character or anything to make a whole army of infiltrators, they're one of your main units
So what prevents it? Why you need special snowflake rules to make fluffy list when 2nd ed you didn't? Apart from dinobots etc new inventions units are pretty much same. And those aren't needed for fluffy night lords anyway.
well, 2nd edition was actually a hell of a lot more flexible than a lot of the subsequent lists, so you didn't particularly require individual Legion rules, following the Night Lords example:
- We had Chaos Space Marine Veterans with Infiltrate and Dispersed Formation as part of our 25%+ Squads allowance - want a Night Lords force making heavy use of infiltrators? go for it! don't need a named character or anything to make a whole army of infiltrators, they're one of your main units
I had forgotten about that part. Also Red Corsairs could IIRC take like 25% or something from Codex: Space Marines since they were new renegades, and with the Cultist appendix you could do a very fluffy Alpha Legion force. Word Bearers could easily have a lot of daemons and cultists too. Iron Warriors were the only ones that were kinda in the middle because they didn't have a ton of heavy guns back then, but even that could have been done, and the cults were all represented, and Black Legion would just be using a mix of it depending on which warband it was.
You could take Codex Marine stuff if you paid more for it. So you could have Chaos Land Speeders and people with power swords (yes, power swords weren't a thing Chaos forces had back then) to represent the fact that not all Renegade Marines do trade-in deals to get big stashes of Autocannons when they turn from the Emperor.
Huron had a rule that his force could take weapons, equipment and support options from Codex: Ultramarines and use Imperial wargear & Vehicle cards at no extra cost. Also Astral Claws terminators were chosen from the Ultramarines codex too
ANY other Chaos force could use imperial equipment or wargear options but had to pay a 50% premium for it (so if you wanted to swap your explodey Mk1 plasma for a reliable newer one, you could)
THAT'S why 2nd edition didn't have "Special snowflake" legion rules, the list was versatile enough not to require one, even in an edition where the Imperials were starting to get their own special snowflake books. Subsequent editions have stripped away options without replacing them with viable alternatives (with the notable exception of 3.5, which remains pretty much the best rules depiction of a "basic" CSM Marine so far)
redleger wrote: Also the majority of players have painted their army to reflect a certain god. So to continously be denied a cult or daemonkin or legion book is why they get so mad. There is fluff for every CSM legion and yet we can not represent it, when Space Marines can. I think if you could take a fluffy night lords army, it would make more people happy. Right now it just isnt possible.
Funny. In 2nd ed there's no legion/whatever rules either yet people are able to create fluffy night lords army.
The game was different then and so was the codex. From 3rd onward, barring 3.5 (aka the golden age or should that be the iron age ) the freedom to make fluffy traitor armies was all but gutted.
So what prevents it? Why you need special snowflake rules to make fluffy list when 2nd ed you didn't? Apart from dinobots etc new inventions units are pretty much same. And those aren't needed for fluffy night lords anyway.
Because when my Iron Warriors CAD faces off against an Imperial Fist Sternhammer and my opponent has a plethora of special rules and formations reflecting his codex-compliant chapter's expertise at siege warfare inherited from their legion forebears and my army gets jack squat because GW don't care about Chaos it seriously hampers my ability to Forge The Narrative.
redleger wrote: Also the majority of players have painted their army to reflect a certain god. So to continously be denied a cult or daemonkin or legion book is why they get so mad. There is fluff for every CSM legion and yet we can not represent it, when Space Marines can. I think if you could take a fluffy night lords army, it would make more people happy. Right now it just isnt possible.
Funny. In 2nd ed there's no legion/whatever rules either yet people are able to create fluffy night lords army.
The game was different then and so was the codex. From 3rd onward, barring 3.5 (aka the golden age or should that be the iron age ) the freedom to make fluffy traitor armies was all but gutted.
So what prevents it? Why you need special snowflake rules to make fluffy list when 2nd ed you didn't? Apart from dinobots etc new inventions units are pretty much same. And those aren't needed for fluffy night lords anyway.
Because when my Iron Warriors CAD faces off against an Imperial Fist Sternhammer and my opponent has a plethora of special rules and formations reflecting his codex-compliant chapter's expertise at siege warfare inherited from their legion forebears and my army gets jack squat because GW don't care about Chaos it seriously hampers my ability to Forge The Narrative.
Have you tried pretending to ride an imaginary horse?
redleger wrote: Also the majority of players have painted their army to reflect a certain god. So to continously be denied a cult or daemonkin or legion book is why they get so mad. There is fluff for every CSM legion and yet we can not represent it, when Space Marines can. I think if you could take a fluffy night lords army, it would make more people happy. Right now it just isnt possible.
Funny. In 2nd ed there's no legion/whatever rules either yet people are able to create fluffy night lords army.
The game was different then and so was the codex. From 3rd onward, barring 3.5 (aka the golden age or should that be the iron age ) the freedom to make fluffy traitor armies was all but gutted.
So what prevents it? Why you need special snowflake rules to make fluffy list when 2nd ed you didn't? Apart from dinobots etc new inventions units are pretty much same. And those aren't needed for fluffy night lords anyway.
Because when my Iron Warriors CAD faces off against an Imperial Fist Sternhammer and my opponent has a plethora of special rules and formations reflecting his codex-compliant chapter's expertise at siege warfare inherited from their legion forebears and my army gets jack squat because GW don't care about Chaos it seriously hampers my ability to Forge The Narrative.
Have you tried pretending to ride an imaginary horse?
Does that get me rerolls or something? I must have missed that dataslate.
redleger wrote: Also the majority of players have painted their army to reflect a certain god. So to continously be denied a cult or daemonkin or legion book is why they get so mad. There is fluff for every CSM legion and yet we can not represent it, when Space Marines can. I think if you could take a fluffy night lords army, it would make more people happy. Right now it just isnt possible.
Funny. In 2nd ed there's no legion/whatever rules either yet people are able to create fluffy night lords army.
The game was different then and so was the codex. From 3rd onward, barring 3.5 (aka the golden age or should that be the iron age ) the freedom to make fluffy traitor armies was all but gutted.
So what prevents it? Why you need special snowflake rules to make fluffy list when 2nd ed you didn't? Apart from dinobots etc new inventions units are pretty much same. And those aren't needed for fluffy night lords anyway.
Because when my Iron Warriors CAD faces off against an Imperial Fist Sternhammer and my opponent has a plethora of special rules and formations reflecting his codex-compliant chapter's expertise at siege warfare inherited from their legion forebears and my army gets jack squat because GW don't care about Chaos it seriously hampers my ability to Forge The Narrative.
Have you tried pretending to ride an imaginary horse?
Does that get me rerolls or something? I must have missed that dataslate.
Talk to your TO or your local gaming group about that.
Anyone have any idea when the next campaign book is due out after T.Hate? I expect quite soon (faster than Sanctus or S.o.Baal) with the storyline progression. Maybe 3-4 weeks? Now I wanna see where this goes.
redleger wrote: Also the majority of players have painted their army to reflect a certain god. So to continously be denied a cult or daemonkin or legion book is why they get so mad. There is fluff for every CSM legion and yet we can not represent it, when Space Marines can. I think if you could take a fluffy night lords army, it would make more people happy. Right now it just isnt possible.
Funny. In 2nd ed there's no legion/whatever rules either yet people are able to create fluffy night lords army.
The game was different then and so was the codex. From 3rd onward, barring 3.5 (aka the golden age or should that be the iron age ) the freedom to make fluffy traitor armies was all but gutted.
So what prevents it? Why you need special snowflake rules to make fluffy list when 2nd ed you didn't? Apart from dinobots etc new inventions units are pretty much same. And those aren't needed for fluffy night lords anyway.
Well my Night Lords forces can't even get Night Vision, so that's pretty annoying. (Unless I roll for a warlord trait) Dark Eldar have it armywide and Tau can get it pretty easy.
Chaos Chosen lost Infiltrate, so I can't even Infiltrate my Night Lords unless I roll for a specific Warlord Trait.
If I want Fear stuff for my non-Raptor Marines I have to go for Nurgle stuff.
There is another bit of rules that actually directly contradict Night Lords fluff. The whole ''Champions of Chaos'' rule that forces Night Lords characters to challenge people to fair fights despite their whole thing in the background being dirty pragmatic fighters who love attacking the weak.
From what little I've read on 2nd edition, I don't think you could have made a fluffy Night Lords army. I didn't play during 2nd edition so I can't really comment much on thsat, except that both fluff and rules have moved on since then. The Black Templars used to be in Codex: Ultramarines for example.
Iron Warriors have to issue challenges. There are instances in the fluff of Imperial Fists challenging Iron Warriors to duels and the Iron Warriors responding by shooting them in the face. Their primarch refused a challenge from Rogal Dorn just so he could watch him rage. And the rules require them to issue challenges.
Thousand Sons have to challenge. They do this so that they can receive mutations from Tzeentch when they win. If you know anything about the Thousand Sons and the Rubric of Ahriman you'll realize this rule is very fluffy. Good job GW studio.
The head of the organization that was responsible for introducing the psychic discipline of Divination to the Legiones Astartes cannot generate powers from Divination. This is also very fluffy.
Why should we need legion rules? Or rules with a modicum of thought and/or care behind them? They seem perfect already. Just use appropriate choices from the existing list to theme your army like you did in 2nd ed.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: Iron Warriors have to issue challenges. There are instances in the fluff of Imperial Fists challenging Iron Warriors to duels and the Iron Warriors responding by shooting them in the face. Their primarch refused a challenge from Rogal Dorn just so he could watch him rage. And the rules require them to issue challenges.
Thousand Sons have to challenge. They do this so that they can receive mutations from Tzeentch when they win. If you know anything about the Thousand Sons and the Rubric of Ahriman you'll realize this rule is very fluffy. Good job GW studio.
The head of the organization that was responsible for introducing the psychic discipline of Divination to the Legiones Astartes cannot generate powers from Divination. This is also very fluffy.
Why should we need legion rules? Or rules with a modicum of thought and/or care behind them? They seem perfect already. Just use appropriate choices from the existing list to theme your army like you did in 2nd ed.
CSM don't necessarily need legion rules, but they are a small and incomplete army right now without a really unique identity and role. The legion rules and what a 10,000 year old space marine represents is a reasonable niche to fill and could make the army fun. An army of high costed veteran models that can pull their own weight despite being outnumbered for example. So what other angle is there to take CSM if we ignore their legion roots? We can't really expand on the demon angle because Daemons are their own army. So while it's nice to have a dark mechancus angle where we have demon possessed vehicles, it really can't be the driving force behind the army. We don't want to just be edgy, spikey Space Marines like we've had for the past 15 years because GW is clearly not up to the task. So what's left?
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: Iron Warriors have to issue challenges. There are instances in the fluff of Imperial Fists challenging Iron Warriors to duels and the Iron Warriors responding by shooting them in the face. Their primarch refused a challenge from Rogal Dorn just so he could watch him rage. And the rules require them to issue challenges.
Thousand Sons have to challenge. They do this so that they can receive mutations from Tzeentch when they win. If you know anything about the Thousand Sons and the Rubric of Ahriman you'll realize this rule is very fluffy. Good job GW studio.
The head of the organization that was responsible for introducing the psychic discipline of Divination to the Legiones Astartes cannot generate powers from Divination. This is also very fluffy.
Why should we need legion rules? Or rules with a modicum of thought and/or care behind them? They seem perfect already. Just use appropriate choices from the existing list to theme your army like you did in 2nd ed.
Trying to figure out if you are serious or sarcastic.
Automatically Appended Next Post: also, has anyone gotten a confirmation of what favored of chaos is?
If the powers are similar I am just over here thinking that I can't wait to infiltrate a sorcerer from Ahriman's cabal and use Electrodisplacement to swap with Kharn and buddies to give them a turn 1 charge chance
Brometheus wrote: If the powers are similar I am just over here thinking that I can't wait to infiltrate a sorcerer from Ahriman's cabal and use Electrodisplacement to swap with Kharn and buddies to give them a turn 1 charge chance
Brometheus wrote: If the powers are similar I am just over here thinking that I can't wait to infiltrate a sorcerer from Ahriman's cabal and use Electrodisplacement to swap with Kharn and buddies to give them a turn 1 charge chance
Oh, that is just nasty. I love it.
And so unfluffy it makes my head hurt
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Charax wrote: Huron had a rule that his force could take weapons, equipment and support options from Codex: Ultramarines and use Imperial wargear & Vehicle cards at no extra cost. Also Astral Claws terminators were chosen from the Ultramarines codex too
ANY other Chaos force could use imperial equipment or wargear options but had to pay a 50% premium for it (so if you wanted to swap your explodey Mk1 plasma for a reliable newer one, you could)
THAT'S why 2nd edition didn't have "Special snowflake" legion rules, the list was versatile enough not to require one, even in an edition where the Imperials were starting to get their own special snowflake books. Subsequent editions have stripped away options without replacing them with viable alternatives (with the notable exception of 3.5, which remains pretty much the best rules depiction of a "basic" CSM Marine so far)
Add to the fact SM keep getting better yet CSM stay the same
Fun fact thousand sons in 3ed (not 3.5) cast the same as they do now had 2wounds and ignore weapons less then strength 5
Using Codex Deathwatch as a model, but with more Chaos flavoured options, could pretty much make Chaos Space Marines feel as cool and dangerous as they ought to be. Clearly you can make rules for gnarly veterans with a lot of options. Get on it, GW.
If you wanted to play Night Lords why not simply go the 30K route? 40KCSM rules will never be as perfect to reflect Night lords as the 30K rules are right now. While the cult legions have been changed by their gods and the Iron Warriors got Daemon engines, I don't really see what makes NL in 40K different from 30K, as they despise daemonic influence (aside furies).
If you want to play Word bearers, simply take Crimson slaughter. I also doubt a new CSM codex will bring them better rules to reflect their backgrounds.
If you want Alpha Legion, take some loyalist chapter and ally in IG as Cultists.
What I'm trying to say: A new CSM won't be able to reflect ALL the legions + renegades. Let's just hope it focusses on nice rules for some of them(Cults) and provides a baseline for the others(undivided + renegades). Right now it's a bland baseline of weak rules for everything and makes nobody happy .
Brometheus wrote: If the powers are similar I am just over here thinking that I can't wait to infiltrate a sorcerer from Ahriman's cabal and use Electrodisplacement to swap with Kharn and buddies to give them a turn 1 charge chance
Oh, that is just nasty. I love it.
And so unfluffy it makes my head hurt
Your thinking is so old school. In newfluff CSM supervillians team up all the time to fight the superfriends and try to take over the world!
Brometheus wrote: If the powers are similar I am just over here thinking that I can't wait to infiltrate a sorcerer from Ahriman's cabal and use Electrodisplacement to swap with Kharn and buddies to give them a turn 1 charge chance
Oh, that is just nasty. I love it.
And so unfluffy it makes my head hurt
Your thinking is so old school. In newfluff CSM supervillians team up all the time to fight the superfriends and try to take over the world!
To be fair the whole chaos codex is unfluffy. Its just a shockingly written mess. This book obviously wont fix it but if it leads into a revamped chaos dex that addresses the issues that people want fixed with new gear, vehicles etc good. Even if it doesn't address legions as long as the book and army is actually usable then they can supplement legions
In 2nd ed people were able to create a fluffy squat army. Things have moved on snce then.
Unfortunately, at least from the squat standpoint. Still, it's a valid point. It seemed to me though Chaos overall wasn't that bad off with 3.5 into 4th edition though, once you included The Lost and the Damned list as an option (one of the best army lists ever for doing "counts as" armies, also) Things seemed to drift downward for Chaos since that point, though.
At this point it won't be a bad thing to had a Black Crusade supplement; bringing back some of the Eye of Terror stuff wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.
Fluff? Thousand Sons as an army don't exist in the game. Kharn looks so sick man, I need to paint him and put him on a nice base.
I've been losing with this army for over a decade and it's getting old. If my Thousand Sons can throw Kharn into [anything] turn 1, I'm doing it until I get new TS stuff, fluff be damned :p
Automatically Appended Next Post: Kharn hooooooooooooooooooooo
Well according to the GW Facebook community rep the new psychic powers DO have some unique powers.
And the rumours from people with the white dwarf also keep stating new chaos space marine codex rules and a "powerful" detachment. I think GW realizes chaos marines need help and this is a strong supplement but not going to be the chaos codex 3.5 or complete revamp people want. This is Defintely a placeholder leading into a much longer series of multiple campaigns as this is labeled only as book 1.
gungo wrote: Well according to the GW Facebook community rep the new psychic powers DO have some unique powers.
And the rumours from people with the white dwarf also keep stating new chaos space marine codex rules and a "powerful" detachment. I think GW realizes chaos marines need help and this is a strong supplement but not going to be the chaos codex 3.5 or complete revamp people want. This is Defintely a placeholder leading into a much longer series of multiple campaigns as this is labeled only as book 1.
Powerful detachment: greater deamon of choice with 30 possessed.
I kid, I just don't want to get my hopes up. If Kharn can be used in KDK, I'll be happy, If he can somehow be shoved into a Fist of Khorne formation (no idea how this would work but it would be hilarious), I'll throw my wallet at GW.
gungo wrote: Well according to the GW Facebook community rep the new psychic powers DO have some unique powers.
These might be new god-specific ones if they're expanding those into normal sized lores. Or they could be the new awful powers they'll be using to replace all the good ones in the lores they're porting over from AoD. We'll see...
And the rumours from people with the white dwarf also keep stating new chaos space marine codex rules and a "powerful" detachment.
Maybe it will give both Fear and Hatred (Space Marines). That way you won't feel left out no matter if you play Black Legion or Crimson Slaughter!
dan2026 wrote: Not sure I really see the point in this book.
Why not just do a new Codex Chaos Space Marines?
Because (and this is Sad Panda, so tantamount to hard fact) 7th is a lame duck and they're not doing any new proper codex updates until they know where they're at.
Maybe it will give both Fear and Hatred (Space Marines). That way you won't feel left out no matter if you play Black Legion or Crimson Slaughter!
Yes, Fear, thats a useful ability in a game dominated by people that Know No Fear. So clearly thats what Chaos will get universally rather than in small ammounts.
NamelessBard wrote: Why are people so adamant arguing against Legion like rules for CSM. That boggles the mind.
You can do fluffy this and that.
Well, you know how to make it more fluffy? Use rules that support building that theme.
We had that once.
It was written by Pete Haines and resulted in some of the most broken garbage imaginable, thanks to Iron Warriors.
Anyways, who is really arguing against Legion like rules for CSM?
That wasn't any fault of the actual system though, just that the IW rules happened to be broken. Legion rules would just be like chapter tactics for SM.
But yeah, no one has really argued against it I don't think.
Rumors of people who have seen it allows Kharn in KDK but yeah, nothing wrong with waiting to see. My first game vs Kharn depends on this, naturally, and I'm hoping to face a badass Kharn army
I am counting on being disappointed again, and the bar is so low already... I would really love to see more Legion specific stuff like Legion tactics but I guess that's going to be on hold for a while.
VeteranNoob wrote: Rumors of people who have seen it allows Kharn in KDK but yeah, nothing wrong with waiting to see. My first game vs Kharn depends on this, naturally, and I'm hoping to face a badass Kharn army
If nothing else, that would make me want to start a KDK army. Regular CSM are fail. But KDK seem like they would be fun.
It's cool that they are trying to release these supplements and everything. I like the new psychic powers, formations and detachments. But at the end of the day, our codex still does not function properly.
Until we get points reductions and cheap, useful assault vehicles we are essentially a one legged assault army trying to bring a knife to a machine gun fight.
VeteranNoob wrote: Rumors of people who have seen it allows Kharn in KDK but yeah, nothing wrong with waiting to see. My first game vs Kharn depends on this, naturally, and I'm hoping to face a badass Kharn army
If nothing else, that would make me want to start a KDK army. Regular CSM are fail. But KDK seem like they would be fun.
I played vs KDK in Sweden and was very very surprised no Kharn. Offered to let opponent use that as I "clearly saw that as an oversight or typo" but he declined.
Brometheus wrote: Fluff? Thousand Sons as an army don't exist in the game. Kharn looks so sick man, I need to paint him and put him on a nice base.
I've been losing with this army for over a decade and it's getting old. If my Thousand Sons can throw Kharn into [anything] turn 1, I'm doing it until I get new TS stuff, fluff be damned :p
Automatically Appended Next Post: Kharn hooooooooooooooooooooo
I dunno. Assuming the powers are mostly the same as the equivalent marine powers, tzeentch might benefit from this book quite a bit.
Ahriman could kill any one vehicle a turn with heretech powers(or whatever it's called). Including flyers iirc, not sure if you need to roll to hit on Machine flense.
Any tzeentch themed army already got a little buff with the conclave, but now they get a whole lot more tools.
Tzeentch units benefit the most from veil of time, even the terminators look ok with a rerollable 2+/4++. Still doesn't make them competitive and a far cry from proper rules but it should help with normal games.
NamelessBard wrote: Why are people so adamant arguing against Legion like rules for CSM. That boggles the mind.
You can do fluffy this and that.
Well, you know how to make it more fluffy? Use rules that support building that theme.
We had that once.
It was written by Pete Haines and resulted in some of the most broken garbage imaginable, thanks to Iron Warriors.
Anyways, who is really arguing against Legion like rules for CSM?
The ironic thing is that while those things were "OP" in those days (and really, it wasn't THAT bad) it would be just "meh" if we were using the 3.5 Codex in the current version of 40k.
This September is very much a celebration of the Blood God, and the Community Painting Competition is themed to fit.
We want to see your entry on the theme of Khorne.
As a KDK player, GW has been givin' me the 'ol slow jerk since I heard about Traitor's Hate. I really hope they can give me the 'ol big finish.
This September is very much a celebration of the Blood God, and the Community Painting Competition is themed to fit.
We want to see your entry on the theme of Khorne.
As a KDK player, GW has been givin' me the 'ol slow jerk since I heard about Traitor's Hate. I really hope they can give me the 'ol big finish.
On the website the moderator said the book wasn't about KDK:
Warhammer 40,000 Hey Kev,
This book is very defiantly the forces of a Black Crusade, rather than a Khorne Daemonkin supplement.
This September is very much a celebration of the Blood God, and the Community Painting Competition is themed to fit.
We want to see your entry on the theme of Khorne.
As a KDK player, GW has been givin' me the 'ol slow jerk since I heard about Traitor's Hate. I really hope they can give me the 'ol big finish.
On the website the moderator said the book wasn't about KDK:
Warhammer 40,000 Hey Kev,
This book is very defiantly the forces of a Black Crusade, rather than a Khorne Daemonkin supplement.
There may be fun ally combinations, though.
They're hyping Khorne. There are rumors Kharn is going to be playable in KDK. It would a missed opportunity to add Kharn and not a Kharn formation of some kind, which may also be allowed in KDK formations. No one said it was a KDK book.
Ally combos are somewhat of a waste with a main KDK force, as well.
<XYZ> Can you hint towards any non-chaos god legion love like Nightlords or Iron warriors ? A formation or 2 would be great
<Warhammer 40,000> There's quite a lot of stuff in this book both of those armies can use, XYZ, you'll see...
<ZYX> Anything for khorne daemonkin aside from nee khárn rules?
Warhammer 40,000 Hey ZYX,
This book is very defiantly the forces of a Black Crusade, rather than a Khorne Daemonkin supplement.
SicSemperTyrannis wrote: <XYZ> Can you hint towards any non-chaos god legion love like Nightlords or Iron warriors ? A formation or 2 would be great <Warhammer 40,000> There's quite a lot of stuff in this book both of those armies can use, XYZ, you'll see...
Translation: No.
Though to be fair a formation or 2 would have a lot going for it...
SicSemperTyrannis wrote: <ZYX> Anything for khorne daemonkin aside from nee khárn rules? Warhammer 40,000 Hey ZYX, This book is very defiantly the forces of a Black Crusade, rather than a Khorne Daemonkin supplement.
Dictionary corner! It's more likely they actually did mean the book was "very defiantly" about the black legion because that makes sense - the book is proud to be about the black legion, is defiant in its insistence not to include khorne daemonkin stuff - whereas "very definitely" would be qualifying an absolute and doesnt make sense. Something is either definite or not, it can't be a bit definite or very definite.
It's not brilliant language either way, though. Anyway...
Motograter wrote: So khorne daemonkin aren't part of a black crusade? Abaddon just letting them sit this one out. Lol that confirms just how stupid GW still are
IIRC there is a story in the KDK codex about some Daemonkin being approached by envoys sent by Abaddon. Let's just say that's not a way to get a head in life, on the part of the envoys at least.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: If Xorphas is some Crimson Slaughter poser why is he babbling about his 10,000 year war? He's been at it for what, a couple decades at most?
I think the Crimson Slaughter have gone into the Eye. If so, it could very well have been 10k years for him already.
I don't really remember the Crimson Slaughter fluff that much though.
Crimson Devil wrote: That,s how long the war has been going on. Not how long he has been involved.
I realize that. My point is that thematically those words would be more appropriate coming from a Heresy veteran, not some renegade chump. "Our 13th Crusade"? Bro, you were still fighting the good fight for the False Emperor when number 12 was going down. Poser!
I'm sad they didn't keep the idea that the PlagueFleet with Typhus as the first wave of the 13th Black Crusade.
It seemed even logical / military clever to weaken the Imperium by plague before sending the actual army.
Crimson Devil wrote: That,s how long the war has been going on. Not how long he has been involved.
I realize that. My point is that thematically those words would be more appropriate coming from a Heresy veteran, not some renegade chump. "Our 13th Crusade"? Bro, you were still fighting the good fight for the False Emperor when number 12 was going down. Poser!
It's the trope of the white guy has picked a side and now the long conflict can be won! Xorphas is the Tom Cruise of this scenario.
godardc wrote: I'm sad they didn't keep the idea that the PlagueFleet with Typhus as the first wave of the 13th Black Crusade.
It seemed even logical / military clever to weaken the Imperium by plague before sending the actual army.
In fairness, I believe Abbadon is sending these lads to a specific system to acquire a specific weapon, rather than it being the first wave.
Crimson Devil wrote: That,s how long the war has been going on. Not how long he has been involved.
I realize that. My point is that thematically those words would be more appropriate coming from a Heresy veteran, not some renegade chump. "Our 13th Crusade"? Bro, you were still fighting the good fight for the False Emperor when number 12 was going down. Poser!
It's the trope of the white guy has picked a side and now the long conflict can be won! Xorphas is the Tom Cruise of this scenario.
All Chaos needed was some Ultramarines. They really are the best you know!
Why are you announcing your plans, random bad guy? I refuse to believe they aren't still making James Bond movies 38K years from now. You should know better.
Gordon Shumway wrote: Why are you announcing your plans, random bad guy? I refuse to believe they aren't still making James Bond movies 38K years from now. You should know better.
Give him a break. He's Crimson Slaughter. He's only been a badguy for a few years now and isn't used to getting beaten all the time by the goodguys. He'll learn.
Ok I could be crazy but...are they actually retconning the retcon? As in they're going with the 13th crusade again, because we actually won that and this is how they're going to "end time" 40k? As in, the 13th crusade succeeds once the this campaign is over(ish) and then we go into into 8th edition as gak truly hits the fan?
Also I agree that the first line of xorphas is just wrong. Would have been totally fine if they just removed the part about the war that he had nothing to do with aside from being an astartes. But I guess they're not done with shoving CS down our throats yet.
It's part of the non proliferation agreement Renegades make. In exchange for inexplicably throwing away all their superior weaponry they get to act like they've been heretics since the HH.
Eldarain wrote: It's part of the non proliferation agreement Renegades make. In exchange for inexplicably throwing away all their superior weaponry they get to act like they've been heretics since the HH.
If they had all the superior weaponry, daemonic gifts, and Daemons, how would 40K justify them not just overunning everyone else ?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: So outside of the whining that Crimson Slaughter are getting some attention, we have anymore leaks of rules?
I can't wait for 10 different terrible ways to use possessed marines.
Too bad that the easiest way to fix them is to make them into beasts and a slight point drop :(
I too am waiting diligently to be disappointed by this Chaos supplement, I'm used to it now.
They should be given the foot speed of Wulfen and a mild price drop. I'm thinking 24 to 25. Wulfen have so many advantages for the 14 points extra that it is ridiculous.
Eldarain wrote: It's part of the non proliferation agreement Renegades make. In exchange for inexplicably throwing away all their superior weaponry they get to act like they've been heretics since the HH.
If they had all the superior weaponry, daemonic gifts, and Daemons, how would 40K justify them not just overunning everyone else ?
Eldarain wrote: It's part of the non proliferation agreement Renegades make. In exchange for inexplicably throwing away all their superior weaponry they get to act like they've been heretics since the HH.
If they had all the superior weaponry, daemonic gifts, and Daemons, how would 40K justify them not just overunning everyone else ?
Tyranids are a prime example of how to take an existential threat in the lore and make them a sad joke on the table so there is some precedent.
More seriously by writing the rules to accurately reflect the characters and abilities of the various flavours of Traitor Astartes. Recently turned Renegade chapters shouldn't have access to the same gifts mutations and daemons as those who fought on Terra. A sliding scale of Heretic Designations unlocking some options while blocking others based on the background of the force you are making would be ideal. Far more like the Rites of War from the Heresy books.
Eldarain wrote: It's part of the non proliferation agreement Renegades make. In exchange for inexplicably throwing away all their superior weaponry they get to act like they've been heretics since the HH.
If they had all the superior weaponry, daemonic gifts, and Daemons, how would 40K justify them not just overunning everyone else ?
Simple, lack of unity. Too many egos and the inherent nature of chaotic corruption to keep them unified forever, even if they had the best of everything.
Eldarain wrote: It's part of the non proliferation agreement Renegades make. In exchange for inexplicably throwing away all their superior weaponry they get to act like they've been heretics since the HH.
If they had all the superior weaponry, daemonic gifts, and Daemons, how would 40K justify them not just overunning everyone else ?
significant lack of numbers and extremely overwhelming odds against them plus tons of anti demon and psycher stuff. On top of that constant infighting amongst themselves. Kinda like Orks but more intelligent.
According to lore Orks are the most populous species in the galaxy and fastest at reproducing and if they would stop infighting could overwhelm the galaxy as well.
Eldarain wrote: It's part of the non proliferation agreement Renegades make. In exchange for inexplicably throwing away all their superior weaponry they get to act like they've been heretics since the HH.
If they had all the superior weaponry, daemonic gifts, and Daemons, how would 40K justify them not just overunning everyone else ?
significant lack of numbers and extremely overwhelming odds against them plus tons of anti demon and psycher stuff.
Eldarain wrote: It's part of the non proliferation agreement Renegades make. In exchange for inexplicably throwing away all their superior weaponry they get to act like they've been heretics since the HH.
If they had all the superior weaponry, daemonic gifts, and Daemons, how would 40K justify them not just overunning everyone else ?
significant lack of numbers and extremely overwhelming odds against them plus tons of anti demon and psycher stuff.
Have you met Kharne?
1 guy and abaddons plan is to have him be the initial distracting onslaught. So chaos knows he is worth a chapter of other chaos marines alone since he is thier main plan for this campaign. However it's still one guy versus all of the imperium, eldar races, necrons/tyranid/Orks to conquer. Tau aren't really near any warp gates.
This is just another example of the disjointed, contradictory, and frankly quite bizarre approach the GW studio has taken to CSM. They seem to like the idea of the Long War but not the idea of the Chaos legions who started it. It's as if they didn't want CSM upstaging their golden boy SMs and therefore decided Heresy-era veterans were just too badass of a concept for CSM to be based on. But on the other hand that's what makes them distinct and that's what the models are based on so let's keep all that stuff too. The result is recently turned renegades running around with pre-Heresy equipment talking about their 10,000 year struggle. Just daft.
Meanwhile, there're really a few different forces kinda squooshed together under the "Chaos" banner. Chaos Marines and Daemons are the obvious ones, but Chaos Cult and Traitor Guard are in the mix, Marine-Daemon mixes (Such as an all-Khorne force), and 'Renegade Marines' who have modern tech but no daemonic gifts.
The trick is getting all of that together into a single body, which is ... hard. Scattering it around a bit with allies can be a thing, but putting most tool sin the pile, then using formations to separate those piles, could be handy.
The question then becomes, "What goes in each pile?"
Roknar wrote: Ok I could be crazy but...are they actually retconning the retcon? As in they're going with the 13th crusade again, because we actually won that and this is how they're going to "end time" 40k? As in, the 13th crusade succeeds once the this campaign is over(ish) and then we go into into 8th edition as gak truly hits the fan?
Also I agree that the first line of xorphas is just wrong. Would have been totally fine if they just removed the part about the war that he had nothing to do with aside from being an astartes. But I guess they're not done with shoving CS down our throats yet.
Sort of, kind of. The previous 13th Crusades were the original 13th Crusade and the New 52 13th Crusade (which was the reboot because of some heretics causing Flashpoint), and now we're getting we're getting the Rebirth 13th Crusade. The Laughing God plays the part of Doctor Manhattan in this scenario.
The answer is to just refocus CSM on the original traitor legions. Ultimately the entire story of the CSM is the story of the Horus Heresy and the traitor legions. That's what makes CSM distinct from SM. It's this bizarre insistence on downplaying the importance of the traitor legions that causes all the issues.
If you want recently-turned renegades, the best approach would be to take the SM list, change the ally matrix, and swap out the formations, chapter tactics and relics for options more suited to renegades. It could be done in a single codex supplement. That would be a Codex: SM supplement, not a Codex: CSM supplement. Unfortunately from a marketing perspective that wouldn't fit in their neat little box since the SM product line is separate from the CSM product line (each identifiable by the little marine helmets with and without horns respectively).
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: So outside of the whining that Crimson Slaughter are getting some attention, we have anymore leaks of rules?
I can't wait for 10 different terrible ways to use possessed marines.
Too bad that the easiest way to fix them is to make them into beasts and a slight point drop :(
I too am waiting diligently to be disappointed by this Chaos supplement, I'm used to it now.
And make them stop randomly mutating in the middle of the fight. Seriously, the mutation you roll either makes them murder their target or flail wildly. This is why the Crimson Slaughter ones are better, they make them Faster or harder to kill, their killing ability isn't impacted at all, so you always know what they can do.
Roknar wrote: Ok I could be crazy but...are they actually retconning the retcon? As in they're going with the 13th crusade again, because we actually won that and this is how they're going to "end time" 40k? As in, the 13th crusade succeeds once the this campaign is over(ish) and then we go into into 8th edition as gak truly hits the fan?
Also I agree that the first line of xorphas is just wrong. Would have been totally fine if they just removed the part about the war that he had nothing to do with aside from being an astartes. But I guess they're not done with shoving CS down our throats yet.
It was never really a retcon to start with, more of a rollback. Chaos won the world wide campaign and 13th black crusade at the closing of the 41st millennium. But until recently GW have focused the background on the time before the crusade began.
Roknar wrote: Ok I could be crazy but...are they actually retconning the retcon? As in they're going with the 13th crusade again, because we actually won that and this is how they're going to "end time" 40k? As in, the 13th crusade succeeds once the this campaign is over(ish) and then we go into into 8th edition as gak truly hits the fan?
Also I agree that the first line of xorphas is just wrong. Would have been totally fine if they just removed the part about the war that he had nothing to do with aside from being an astartes. But I guess they're not done with shoving CS down our throats yet.
It was never really a retcon to start with, more of a rollback. Chaos won the world wide campaign thus and 13th black crusade at the closing of the 41st millennium. But until recently GW have focused the background on the time before the crusade began.
Which we all assumed meant it never happened and was never gonna happen, cuz we have to fill literally every second before the beginning of the 41st millennium, but GW has surprised us.
Roknar wrote: Ok I could be crazy but...are they actually retconning the retcon? As in they're going with the 13th crusade again, because we actually won that and this is how they're going to "end time" 40k? As in, the 13th crusade succeeds once the this campaign is over(ish) and then we go into into 8th edition as gak truly hits the fan?
Also I agree that the first line of xorphas is just wrong. Would have been totally fine if they just removed the part about the war that he had nothing to do with aside from being an astartes. But I guess they're not done with shoving CS down our throats yet.
Sort of, kind of. The previous 13th Crusades were the original 13th Crusade and the New 52 13th Crusade (which was the reboot because of some heretics causing Flashpoint), and now we're getting we're getting the Rebirth 13th Crusade. The Laughing God plays the part of Doctor Manhattan in this scenario.
lol, that suprisingly accurate XD. I just hope it's not a GW's way of keeping the legions in the background and making csm all about how the crimson slaughter are doing the dirty work for the Black Legion.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: The answer is to just refocus CSM on the original traitor legions. Ultimately the entire story of the CSM is the story of the Horus Heresy and the traitor legions. That's what makes CSM distinct from SM. It's this bizarre insistence on downplaying the importance of the traitor legions that causes all the issues.
If you want recently-turned renegades, the best approach would be to take the SM list, change the ally matrix, and swap out the formations, chapter tactics and relics for options more suited to renegades. It could be done in a single codex supplement. That would be a Codex: SM supplement, not a Codex: CSM supplement. Unfortunately from a marketing perspective that wouldn't fit in their neat little box since the SM product line is separate from the CSM product line (each identifiable by the little marine helmets with and without horns respectively).
I believe that is GW's stance, the Traitor Legions no longer exist as coherent forces anymore. The problem is that haven't bothered to tell the fluff writers. GW needs to get on the same page and then present that to the fan base. And then the fans can accept or reject that as they want to.
Eldarain wrote: It's part of the non proliferation agreement Renegades make. In exchange for inexplicably throwing away all their superior weaponry they get to act like they've been heretics since the HH.
If they had all the superior weaponry, daemonic gifts, and Daemons, how would 40K justify them not just overunning everyone else ?
Easy answer we're chaos. Chaos doesn't overrun the Galaxy because of all the in fighting. The gods hate/fear each other more than they do the Imperium, and their followers likewise hate and can't stand each other. Even among the followers of the same god you have mortals hating/betraying daemons, and daemons hating/betraying mortals.The "Great Game" ultimately isn't about beating the Imperium.
Grimmor wrote: Which we all assumed meant it never happened and was never gonna happen, cuz we have to fill literally every second before the beginning of the 41st millennium, but GW has surprised us.
TBH I'm mostly ok with expanding the "history" of the setting. Ten thousand years is heck of a long time, and I often feel that many in the hobby(and GW themselves sometimes) could do with a reminder that the Heresy wasn't last week for the forces of the 41st millennium. That said the 13th crusade does make for a great season cliff hanger with Chaos forces spilling out of the Cadian gate into the wider Imperium.
Ah, how we forget, eh?
The original 13th crusade did, indeed, have chaos win the ground war by a decent enough margin… but the campaign also included space battles. Space battles where the chaos fleet got absolutely curbstomped. Like 90% Imperial/Eldar win rate.
The great Undoing happened because at the end of the campaign Chaos "won" but was in such an abysmal strategic situation that an eventual Imperial victory was inevitable; it would just take a decade or two to figure out which planets were salvageable and Exterminatus the rest, ready for resettlement.
And basically no-one liked that ending much, not least because it's the exact same ending as every other Black Crusade: Abbadabbadoo steps out with his buddies, causes a bunch of damage, pays no attention to the wider realm, and eventually gets rolled over by the Imperial Machine.
So it was unhappened to save face. Abbaddon's face.
Eldarain wrote: It's part of the non proliferation agreement Renegades make. In exchange for inexplicably throwing away all their superior weaponry they get to act like they've been heretics since the HH.
If they had all the superior weaponry, daemonic gifts, and Daemons, how would 40K justify them not just overunning everyone else ?
There aren't a lot of them. Also, they are SUPPOSED TO run over everybody else!
Crimson Devil wrote: I believe that is GW's stance, the Traitor Legions no longer exist as coherent forces anymore. The problem is that haven't bothered to tell the fluff writers. GW needs to get on the same page and then present that to the fan base. And then the fans can accept or reject that as they want to.
They haven't bothered to tell the sculptors either apparently. Terminators have reaper autocannons, Raptors have mk2 jump packs (and that isn't even a rules-related thing), Chosen have mk4 armor, etc.
If the traitor legions don't exist as coherent forces the focus should be on the warbands that splintered off of them. That's what all the models depict.
Lol games workshop didn't like the result. People were sacked or left as they did not like what GW decided to do and by that I mean they totally ignored the result. The campaign was to be the spark of a new look 40k but when it didn't go the way gw wanted it they just bottled it. Funnily enough since that campaign gw have made a total mess of chaos in every codex. Maybe they now see how much the community wants chaos to be decent and this is how they fix it. Not likely but one can hope
Easy way to justify not so much attention on the Legions- make them stronger, ironically. Horus is dead, and while Abbadon is Champion of Chaos, instead of the other legions being under his control in a Black Crusade, they only grudgingly cooperate, spending most their time doing their own things and answering to their own primarchs and leaders. Abbadon therefore mainly focuses on the Black Legion, which included members of other legions that joined him, and renegades who are weaker and need patronage. So things like the Thousand Sons are still around and strong, but instead of joining Abbadon's Black Crusade, Magnus figures the distraction would make for a good time to hit Fenris.
Mr_Rose wrote: Ah, how we forget, eh?
The original 13th crusade did, indeed, have chaos win the ground war by a decent enough margin… but the campaign also included space battles. Space battles where the chaos fleet got absolutely curbstomped. Like 90% Imperial/Eldar win rate.
I believe what actually happened is that a huge number of Imperial players never bothered to click on any of the website links that led from the sector level to the system level down to the planet level. And so they ended up posting huge numbers of (largely SM) victories to the Cadian sector rather than to the actual planets in the Cadian system. The campaign system had this mechanic whereby hitting easy to conquer planets would drop Imperial control on neighboring planets. The Chaos/badguy players deciphered how the system worked, got organized, came up with a strategy, and posted all their wins to the planets that would have the greatest impact.
The end result was that sector and system level control was overwhelmingly Imperial since at the sector/system level only numbers of wins mattered and there were many more Imperial players posting than Chaos. But at the planetary level the Chaos players posted their wins where they'd make the most difference and so were able to win the campaign while posting less wins overall.
The organizers in the studio interpreted this result to mean that the Imperium won in space while Chaos won on the ground and that's what they ended up putting into the writeup at the end. This had nothing to do with Battlefleet Gothic results though. It was entirely due to Imperial players failure to get organized and/or successfully navigate the website.
Yeah, that is surely a name to strike...something?
Memories of old saturday morning cartoons, perhaps?
Sounds more like some new prescription drug to me. "Do not take Xorphas if you are taking antidepressants. If you experience painful rectal bleeding that lasts longer than six hours, while taking Xorphas, discontinue taking Xorphas and contact your doctor as it may indicate a severe medical condition..."
Roknar wrote: Ok I could be crazy but...are they actually retconning the retcon? As in they're going with the 13th crusade again, because we actually won that and this is how they're going to "end time" 40k? As in, the 13th crusade succeeds once the this campaign is over(ish) and then we go into into 8th edition as gak truly hits the fan?
Also I agree that the first line of xorphas is just wrong. Would have been totally fine if they just removed the part about the war that he had nothing to do with aside from being an astartes. But I guess they're not done with shoving CS down our throats yet.
It was never really a retcon to start with, more of a rollback. Chaos won the world wide campaign and 13th black crusade at the closing of the 41st millennium. But until recently GW have focused the background on the time before the crusade began.
wasn't the rollback also do to people messing with campaign results?
The 136-page hardback Black Crusade: Traitor’s Hate features all-new rules content for Warhammer 40,000, to be used alongside Codex: Chaos Space Marines:
- Updated rules for fielding Chaos Predator and Vindicator squadrons;
- Chaos Space Marines Tactical Objectives, murderous and unholy, these Objectives encapsulate the Traitor Legions;
- Sorcerors of Chaos: having sold their souls to vile Daemon deities, Psykers of the Chaos Space Marines gain access to 4 new Psychic Disciplines: Sinistrum Discipline, Heretech Discipline, Ectomancy Discipline and Geomortis Discipline;
- 11 new Formations, with the Black Crusade Detachment showing you how to pick your army;
- full rules for fielding Renegade Knights in games of Warhammer 40,000, including Wargear of the Fallen Households.'
The new Kharn model is getting lost in his formation picture. I can barely pick out his gold outline amidst the red. Maybe they should give him a 4+ cover save for being so indistinct.
I actually noticed the berserkers before the new model in that picture. Khran in that picture looks like a part of the background unless you look closely.
Yeah the bundles only save you the extra few seconds it would take you to add the items to your cart individually. Its the boxed sets where any savings will be, like the Favoured of Chaos Posessed and Daemon prince box.
Cryo84r wrote: Please don't tell me I got into 40k just in time for it to end...
Time of Ending started in 2008 in the 5th Edition rulebook, which is nothing shocking but just a name for the current era of humanity for nearly ten years now. It is also referenced to as End Times. Like in the background section of 2012's CSM Codex. The last part of that codex's timeline told us about the (possible) return of Daemonprimarchs. Which is actually going to happen in late 2016/early 2017
Automatically Appended Next Post: This has nothing to do with the rules by the way
So out of those formations the Chaos Warband, Helforged Warpack, and Favoured of Chaos look suspiciously similar to existing weaksauce Black Legion formations.
And I'm wondering, why is Kharn a NZ$75 model? These guys? NZ$65 for the lot. These guys? NZ$65 for the box.
In fact *checks every box, divided into HQ/Infantry* Kharn is the single most expensive character model outside of the Crisis Commander and the 30K HQ two-pack (discounting Tyranid beasties and Greater Daemons, that is).
What. The. Feth?
Turning a new leaf under Roundtree? Not bloody likely... this price is insane...
godardc wrote: I still think his legs are strangely carved.
I think the issue with the legs is that from behind you can see his left leg is molded into the side of the right leg (Kind of like a race horse that clips itself while running). From the front, you can't see the pinched legs past the hanging skulls. In essence, they have pinched his legs together at the ankles rather than throwing them back or slightly to the side - so his legs only look 'normal' from a certain forward facing angle, from all others it isn't a correct aspect which our minds perceive as wrong.
Still a lovely model in line with the Dark Vengeance/Warp Talon aesthetics and well advanced past the legacy CSM models (stock Marines or 'Zerkers).
H.B.M.C. wrote: Wow... a bundle with the ancient hybrid Havocs.
And I'm wondering, why is Kharn a NZ$75 model? These guys? NZ$65 for the lot. These guys? NZ$65 for the box.
In fact *checks every box, divided into HQ/Infantry* Kharn is the single most expensive character model outside of the Crisis Commander and the 30K HQ two-pack (discounting Tyranid beasties and Greater Daemons, that is).
What. The. Feth?
Turning a new leaf under Roundtree? Not bloody likely... this price is insane...
Or maybe even Rountree is unable to break the pricing curse.
Gw pricing is bizarre at times. Kharn is the same price as the tech priest dominus in Japan, cheaper in Australia but more expensive in New Zealand (and way too expensive in all those places).
I highly recommend that people skip this model and buy a start collecting box instead. If you really need a new Kharn the white dwarf mini would make good conversion fodder
H.B.M.C. wrote:Wow... a bundle with the ancient hybrid Havocs.
And I'm wondering, why is Kharn a NZ$75 model? These guys? NZ$65 for the lot. These guys? NZ$65 for the box.
In fact *checks every box, divided into HQ/Infantry* Kharn is the single most expensive character model outside of the Crisis Commander and the 30K HQ two-pack (discounting Tyranid beasties and Greater Daemons, that is).
What. The. Feth?
Turning a new leaf under Roundtree? Not bloody likely... this price is insane...
At this rate, GW better be hoping that another IP for computer games gives them another 4 Million because at this rate the sales are going to be the same like last year. I step forward, 2 steps back. While yes it's cheaper to get into 40K now, NO WAY is it cheaper to continue with 40K. I guess GW is back to it's old plans where they want the quick few hundred bucks and then never see the new people ever again while the old die hards continue to buy the expensive stuff.
I guess GW hasn't learnt their lesson at all, or they are hoping the smoke and mirrors of them having good will that they have changed. That price is just ridiculous for a single mini. A Space Marine mini for $75 Australian? Leader or not, that is just crazy. Hate to see the Canadian price for it. At least now I know I won't be getting it. Looks like I won't be invested with 40K as long as I thought I would be. Just getting back and it looks like GW still doesn't want me back. Oh well. Guess I was a sucker giving GW over $500 this year.
It is $43 Canadian. Despite the stupidity if this price, I do think Gw are taking baby steps in the right direction. I put a little post on gw's Facebook page expressing my dissapointment.
Nobody at GW reads Dakka (I have asked) but they do read the Facebook comments.
I used to think Gw was blind to it but I do think that now that voting with your wallet will have an effect. My hope is that come the end of the year, the top 20 bestselling items are all start collecting sets. (sorry for drifting off topic)
H.B.M.C. wrote:Wow... a bundle with the ancient hybrid Havocs.
And I'm wondering, why is Kharn a NZ$75 model? These guys? NZ$65 for the lot. These guys? NZ$65 for the box.
In fact *checks every box, divided into HQ/Infantry* Kharn is the single most expensive character model outside of the Crisis Commander and the 30K HQ two-pack (discounting Tyranid beasties and Greater Daemons, that is).
What. The. Feth?
Turning a new leaf under Roundtree? Not bloody likely... this price is insane...
At this rate, GW better be hoping that another IP for computer games gives them another 4 Million because at this rate the sales are going to be the same like last year. I step forward, 2 steps back. While yes it's cheaper to get into 40K now, NO WAY is it cheaper to continue with 40K. I guess GW is back to it's old plans where they want the quick few hundred bucks and then never see the new people ever again while the old die hards continue to buy the expensive stuff.
I guess GW hasn't learnt their lesson at all, or they are hoping the smoke and mirrors of them having good will that they have changed. That price is just ridiculous for a single mini. A Space Marine mini for $75 Australian? Leader or not, that is just crazy. Hate to see the Canadian price for it. At least now I know I won't be getting it. Looks like I won't be invested with 40K as long as I thought I would be. Just getting back and it looks like GW still doesn't want me back. Oh well. Guess I was a sucker giving GW over $500 this year.
That's an overly emotional response to the pricing of a character you could more than easily create yourself.
I must admit I was a bit baffled by the price rage. As at £22 he's firmly in the ball park for clamshell characters (especially those where you're absolutely never ever going to need more than one per army.)
But I just did a quick currency conversion, and £22 currently translates to a little over NZ$40.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Wow... a bundle with the ancient hybrid Havocs.
At this point I'd put the odds of ever seeing plastic Havocs vs them just changing the Havoc entry to only special weapons & heavy bolters at around 50/50.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Wow... a bundle with the ancient hybrid Havocs.
At this point I'd put the odds of ever seeing plastic Havocs vs them just changing the Havoc entry to only special weapons & heavy bolters at around 50/50.
Or just remove the havoc entry so stores have more shelf space for bezerker kits, hands down the most popular kit GW ever produced!
Is it just me or do the 2 berzerkers in the front of that picture have arms from the CSM kit? They're so old GW is too embarrassed to show the actual stock models with their giant hands?
I think you're right about the arms. I don't remember that tooth on the bolt pistol either, but last time i built any zerkers was in third edition so yea....
Is it just me or do the 2 berzerkers in the front of that picture have arms from the CSM kit? They're so old GW is too embarrassed to show the actual stock models with their giant hands?
Yes I did notice the different arms with not ugly chainswords like the ones from the zerks kit. For a second I believed they could be new Berzerkers before I realized these are the arms from the csm kit.
Am I the only one who hates the new Kharn? I find him the most ugly miniature in a long time. From the front he is completly overloaded with details. And a lot of those details are way too big, like the oversized ugly chains and the ugly skull on the abdomen. He doesn't look like a marine in power armor but like a chaos warrior in Fantasy. His proportions are off and his bearing is completly wrong.
I want the old miniature back. The old one had at least Style,
I can't help but notice that the cards aren't available separately yet...
This release is just plain odd.
- Campaign book costing the same as a codex (cheaper than the other campaigns)
- Overpriced Kharn
- Cards only available with the campaign (for now, hopefully)
- Limited Edition version costing more than codex limited editions while having the same amount of stuff
-Re-release of the VSG in plastic with varying prices (increases, decreases and stable) in different regions for seemingly no reason
- Renegade Knights costs more than a normal Knight because it has different transfers (what the actual feth)
Wait a minute. I just checked the traitors hate description on the new zealand site. It mentions word bearers too:
"On the Warmaster’s orders, Xorphas commands the Crimson Slaughter, Black Legion and Word Bearers forces as he seeks a monstrous source of power that could spell the doom of the Imperium itself."
I haven't read anything about word bearers yet. I wonder if this is what they mean by mixing dameons and csm, though going by the bundles we have so far they can't possibly be getting much.
And for what it's worth it also says this " Updated rules for fielding Chaos Predator and Vindicator squadrons" so um..yay..I guess?
Ho wow. Just check the rates and the nez Zealand dollar is pretty much equivalent to the canadian dollar. Is there really people over there who buy these insanely priced minis?
Is it just me or do the 2 berzerkers in the front of that picture have arms from the CSM kit? They're so old GW is too embarrassed to show the actual stock models with their giant hands?
Pretty sure the whole body on the front guy is from the CSM sprue. Only the head (&maybe shoulder pads) are from the bezerker kit.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: I can't help but notice that the cards aren't available separately yet...
- Cards only available with the campaign (for now, hopefully)
not sure if nobody even bothered to actually type the word 'cards' in the search box, and see if there isn't actually a heretic astartes deck ...
You'd think they'd be in the Pre-order or Cards sections (I checked both before I posted). Hell, you'd even think they'd be listed in the Chaos Space Marine section.
Nope. They're on the store but only if you search for them. You can't find them any other way (at least, on the AUS store you can't). The site was definitely worth every cent paid to Kirby's wife... grumble...
For those wondering they're called "Heretic Astartes Psychic Powers". Search that and you'll find them (don't search cards as they won't come up as they are neither classified as cards on the store nor contain 'cards' in the name).
same deal happened with mont'ka back then (and possibly still now), you couldn't find mont'ka separated from kauyon, unless you typed it or search in the new release tab
Is it just me or do the 2 berzerkers in the front of that picture have arms from the CSM kit? They're so old GW is too embarrassed to show the actual stock models with their giant hands?
Pretty sure the whole body on the front guy is from the CSM sprue. Only the head (&maybe shoulder pads) are from the bezerker kit.
The legs are also from the Berzerker kit. And you can see the hamfist on the Berzerker on the right.
Gotta say that I love the Kharn model now, having seen the 360 image. I'm a bit surprised that his head is moulded onto the body, though - I was planning on removing the tassels (and most of the chains), so that makes it a bit harder.
I really hope the Black Crusader Detachment allows you to take formationa from Black Legion, Crimson Slaughter, and KDK. Unfortunately it doesn't look like BL and CS are getting their own detachments.
Lol berzerkers wont get a new kit but watch GW release them as an upgrade kit where you can mix the ancient berzerkers alongside the equally horribly old csm kit. You want chain axes lol no
Kharn is more expensive than (in pricing order, and again not including Monstrous Creatures):
1. Blood Angel Chaplain 2. Blood Angel Terminator Librarian 3. Space Marine Command Squad (WTF?) 4. The combined set that has the plastic Marine Captain, Chaplain and Librarian in one bundle (WT-F'ing-F!!!) 5. The (also blatantly overpriced) Tech-Priest Enginseer 6. Big Mek w/Shokk Attack Gun 7. The Space Marine Captain box 8. Twice the price of the BA Termy Libby. 9. Over twice the price of every other HQ mini, from the Painboy through to Colonel 'Iron Hand' Straken.
The only command units more expensive are the Tech-Priest dude from the Ad Mech army (but you can get him in the Starterbox so who cares), the two-pack 30K heroes, the Crisis Commander... and that's it (exclusding Squad + HQ bundles).
So with each campaign book, new models were released. Tau got new FW/Breachers, Crisis suits, Ghostkeel and more. SW got Wulfen, Iron Priest(?) Etc and so far this campaign got a new Kharn. Surely there is more but those pictures seem to show not much else :(
The limited edition price seems crazy to me. £110 is way more then I'm willing to pay.
Seeing as the normal version of the book is £30, I was expecting £50 and I might have paid £60. Instead now I'll just buy the normal version from my flgs for 20% off.
I didn't see it so sorry if someone brought this up already. Behold! Coming the Fall to a galaxy near you.
