I wasn't talking about grimoire. I just figured it would be a possibility for him. At the very least he can have a 3++ according to the article. So any other buff will do and you have your 2++.
He might even know all of daemonology with how many daemons they summon in the fluff.
So I don't think we'll have to go out of our way to give him a 2++, but even with a 3++ re-rollable on 1's that just about as tough.
If Magnus isn't capable of dropping wraithknights it'll show that power creep for eldar exists both in the game and in the fluff, because he did exactly that in A Thousand Sons
Snake Tortoise wrote: If Magnus isn't capable of dropping wraithknights it'll show that power creep for eldar exists both in the game and in the fluff, because he did exactly that in A Thousand Sons
Well if his gaze can take out a baneblade it should be able to do the same with a wraith knight. It sounds an awful lot like a strength D psychic power to me.
But from his profile alone? 7-8 str 8 attacks just doesn't cut it vs a Wraith knight. They will probably be force, but only few of those will actually stick.
He could do it if you get lucky, but if he whiffs he's toast.
He'll be 333pts. That's my prediction.
It's a shame he is basically a Flying C'Tan.
Another prediction is that Rubric Marines will be cheaper, but will not automatically come with AP3 bolters or a 4++. Instead they will have Soulblaze/Warpflame bolters and will have to use Psychic powers/there Special detatchment to get a 4++ or 3++.
If I remember correctly, the Thousand Sons in the CSM codex have their 4++ because they come with wargear that grants 5++, then Mark of Tzeencth gives +1. It would be super easy just to drop that wargear so that you have to use powers & formation bonuses to get back the 4++
I hope that doesn't happen, but I will not be surprised
Snake Tortoise wrote: If Magnus isn't capable of dropping wraithknights it'll show that power creep for eldar exists both in the game and in the fluff, because he did exactly that in A Thousand Sons
Well if his gaze can take out a baneblade it should be able to do the same with a wraith knight. It sounds an awful lot like a strength D psychic power to me.
But from his profile alone? 7-8 str 8 attacks just doesn't cut it vs a Wraith knight. They will probably be force, but only few of those will actually stick.
He could do it if you get lucky, but if he whiffs he's toast.
Plus I'm pretty sure the things they saw in A Thousand Sons weren't wraithknights but rather revnant or phantom titans. They were supposed to be bigger than Canis Vertex iirc.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Wow... GW are still afraid to make anything - even a frickin' Daemon Primarch the size of a Knight - even slightly tough.
Toughness 7? Seven? He's not as tough as this guy. WTF?
I'm just attributing that to the usual changing-their-mind-mid-sentence attitude. Thinking they went a bit overboard there and now we happen to be the ones stuck in a more balanced cycle...again.
Snake Tortoise wrote: If Magnus isn't capable of dropping wraithknights it'll show that power creep for eldar exists both in the game and in the fluff, because he did exactly that in A Thousand Sons
Well if his gaze can take out a baneblade it should be able to do the same with a wraith knight. It sounds an awful lot like a strength D psychic power to me.
But from his profile alone? 7-8 str 8 attacks just doesn't cut it vs a Wraith knight. They will probably be force, but only few of those will actually stick.
He could do it if you get lucky, but if he whiffs he's toast.
Well with those stats and force in effect a WK only needs to have a couple of wounds taken away for Magnus to charge in and take it out.
In any case whether or not he can take down a WK I hope Magnus isn't as points efficient as a WK. GW needs to backpedal a lot on the power creep that has happened, and I'd be happy if all subsequent releases are no stronger than KDK and eventually when it's eldar's turn they bring them back down to a moderate power level too. Nerf grav a lot, nerf tau, block the deathstar shenanigans somehow, remove invisibility etc. For me that's preferable to bringing everything else up to eldar's level
He'll have mastery level 5, casting on 3+, no eternal warrior. Rubrics in 6" will change slowness to relentless. 999 points. Also if he is killed you must table the opponent or lose the game.
LightKing wrote: in tabletop will Magnus be more powerful than Ahriman?
In theory, he shouldn't. In practice, Ahriman may be more flexible (with 15 powers, there's a reasonable presumption that Magnus knows 2 complete disciplines and his unique Gaze of Magnus power) due to being able to draw from more disciplines, and there's no guarantee that Magnus will be able to spam one power multiple times like Ahriman can through his wargear.
That said, Magnus has a much better profile, will probably be better at harnessing warp charges, will probably be a higher Mastery level, and has a significantly better unit type. Whether Magnus's point cost will be worth those benefits is unknown, as we know neither the point costs nor what Magnus will actually have outside of his fairly impressive statline.
LightKing wrote: in tabletop will Magnus be more powerful than Ahriman?
Could go either way really. Ahriman is already better than he used to be thanks to the disc.
If Magnus comes at a ludicrous price, that would pretty much make him unviable even though he would offer better performance. Or at least would limit him to apocalypse games.
LightKing wrote: in tabletop will Magnus be more powerful than Ahriman?
In theory, he shouldn't. In practice, Ahriman may be more flexible (with 15 powers, there's a reasonable presumption that Magnus knows 2 complete disciplines and his unique Gaze of Magnus power) due to being able to draw from more disciplines, and there's no guarantee that Magnus will be able to spam one power multiple times like Ahriman can through his wargear.
That said, Magnus has a much better profile, will probably be better at harnessing warp charges, will probably be a higher Mastery level, and has a significantly better unit type. Whether Magnus's point cost will be worth those benefits is unknown, as we know neither the point costs nor what Magnus will actually have outside of his fairly impressive statline.
wait how does Ahriman know more powers than Magnus?
He meant that magnus is probably locked into disciplines while ahrrman can choose from 11 or so different disciplines. Plus he might not be locked into tzeentch anymore, which would be pretty sweet as a lvl 4 psyker.
And with fatey being lvl 4 iirc I don't see Magnus being a whole lot better. So they'd all be stuck with casting 4 powers max.
Roknar wrote: He meant that magnus is probably locked into disciplines while ahrrman can choose from 11 or so different disciplines.
reading the post it says Magnus knows 15....so he knows 4+ disciplines than Ahriman?
A full discipline is 7 (6 powers + primaris). Magnus likely knows 2 complete disciplines plus his own personal power. It's unknown if he can pick which those are or if he has a set list.
I noticed one of the rubrics has a burning icon on his backpack, I'd presume it does something in game, maybe it gives the unit it's initial 5++ and then the mark makes it 4++, decurion makes them re roll 1s or on the other hand gives soulblaze or warp flame to the units weapons, can't wait to find out moar!!
he knows 15 powers:
7 from the daemons of tzeentch discipline from curse of the wulfen
7 from the new CSM tzeentch discipline from wrath of magnus
aswell as gaze of magnus.
thats 15 in total. could be entirely possible.
the community page also mentions "his Crown grants him a respectable 4+ invulnerable save which combines with his Daemon of Tzeentch rule to grant re-rolls of ones. This can be bolstered further when included as part of a dedicated Thousand Sons Detachment (more on those later this week.)"
thinking about the detatchment. that might either grant and/or improve daemons of tzeentch reroll of 1's special rule or: improve the invulnerable save by 1 for example.
personally i am hoping for the latter. because that could grant a whole thousand son army a 3++ which would boost rubicae to more reliable levels aswell as terminators.
Do we have any rumours on how Ahirman will change? I could see him loosing the tzeentch restriction. That would make him a generic Masterly lvl 4 psyker that can fire the same witch fire 3 times, on a jetbike no less. Or am I setting myself up for dissapointment here? ^^
LightKing wrote: Does this make Magnus now the most powerful singular character in 40k tabletop?
As of right now, no idea but he's very well set up to be a walking psychic deathstar. Remember also that they only showed is base stats and unit type, no idea what Kind of wargear he has. His sword could be a +6 D weapon that makes template attacks in close combat for all we know.
Mantle wrote: I noticed one of the rubrics has a burning icon on his backpack, I'd presume it does something in game, maybe it gives the unit it's initial 5++ and then the mark makes it 4++, decurion makes them re roll 1s or on the other hand gives soulblaze or warp flame to the units weapons, can't wait to find out moar!!
On the Community Website (or maybe it was a WD screenshot from somewhere) the icon was specifically called out as an Icon of Flame.
Unless they've changed its rules, all it does is give Soul Blaze to the unit's bolt weapons.
Roknar wrote: I'm just attributing that to the usual changing-their-mind-mid-sentence attitude. Thinking they went a bit overboard there and now we happen to be the ones stuck in a more balanced cycle...again.
The Wraithlord has been T8 for seventeen years. It's a bit late for changing their minds/development cycles to be a part of this now.
I simply do not understand why GW is afraid of Toughnesses above 7. T7 is a bit like AV11, except S4 can hurt you. This means that a Wraithlord/Knight in HTH with a squad of Marines is safe, but Magnus can be hurt by basic Marines.
He's a fething Daemon Primarch. He should be able to wade through bolter fire and chainswords like rain off a Baneblade.
Roknar wrote: I'm just attributing that to the usual changing-their-mind-mid-sentence attitude. Thinking they went a bit overboard there and now we happen to be the ones stuck in a more balanced cycle...again.
The Wraithlord has been T8 for seventeen years. It's a bit late for changing their minds/development cycles to be a part of this now.
I simply do not understand why GW is afraid of Toughnesses above 7. T7 is a bit like AV11, except S4 can hurt you. This means that a Wraithlord/Knight in HTH with a squad of Marines is safe, but Magnus can be hurt by basic Marines.
How else are Space Wolves meant to look heroic kill him?
Roknar wrote: I'm just attributing that to the usual changing-their-mind-mid-sentence attitude. Thinking they went a bit overboard there and now we happen to be the ones stuck in a more balanced cycle...again.
The Wraithlord has been T8 for seventeen years. It's a bit late for changing their minds/development cycles to be a part of this now.
I simply do not understand why GW is afraid of Toughnesses above 7. T7 is a bit like AV11, except S4 can hurt you. This means that a Wraithlord/Knight in HTH with a squad of Marines is safe, but Magnus can be hurt by basic Marines.
He's a Daemon Primarch. He should be able to wade through bolter fire and chainswords like rain off a Baneblade.
If he has the ability to get a 2+ rerolling 1's then he is miles above a wraithlord.
Actually, I could see him at 360 points (3+6+0=9) if they really care that much about yhe sacred number thing. They may have left him as a FMC to keep the cost down :/.
Roknar wrote: I'm just attributing that to the usual changing-their-mind-mid-sentence attitude. Thinking they went a bit overboard there and now we happen to be the ones stuck in a more balanced cycle...again.
The Wraithlord has been T8 for seventeen years. It's a bit late for changing their minds/development cycles to be a part of this now.
I simply do not understand why GW is afraid of Toughnesses above 7. T7 is a bit like AV11, except S4 can hurt you. This means that a Wraithlord/Knight in HTH with a squad of Marines is safe, but Magnus can be hurt by basic Marines.
He's a fething Daemon Primarch. He should be able to wade through bolter fire and chainswords like rain off a Baneblade.
Yea but after making the knight T8 and GMC their fears were confirmed anew and now they go the extra mile to make sure nothing gets that tough But yea, agree with everything you said. At least things like the BT have WS 10 to offer at least some extra resistance.
I'm sure GW knows what they're doing. I'm sure he gets the old TSons rule where they can't be hurt by anything less than S5. Totally super duper sure...
Red Corsair wrote: His toughness means jack all to my dark eldar yacht club Lack of GMC means he takes wounds on a 4+ lol.
Only fools look at toughness as the primary measure of durability.
4++ baseline invul with built in rerolls and intensive psychic ability? In 99% of cases you could shoot 400 poison 4+ shots into him and he'd probably laugh it off.
He WILL have a rerollable 2++ He WILL have eternal warrior, if he was a GMC on top of that he'd be basically unstoppable. You on chance now is the 1-36 chance that a ranged D weapon hits him through invis and 6s him out.
A 6 on the D chart completly bypasses his 2++ rerollable. You don't get a save vs that. One 6 on the D-chart and he dies.
I think the only 40k unit that can survive a 6 on the D-chart is the khorne mower. It minimum 7 unsaveable wounds.
T7 vs T8 is a pretty big difference. There is lots and lots of stuff that can still wound T7.
Anthony Renolds' trilogy should be taken as gospel, IMO. It lays out some clear and unique organization to stick to. Unfortunately it doesn't mesh with the CSM book, and since Traitor Legions is going to be a supplement to that I suspect that this supplement is just going to be a bunch of "x counts as troops, here are some warlord traits" garbage.
A Word Bearers' Dark Apostle should have the option to be a psyker at a minimum. If they can't even do that then I won't even bother.
Swampmist wrote: Actually, I could see him at 360 points (3+6+0=9) if they really care that much about yhe sacred number thing. They may have left him as a FMC to keep the cost down :/.
If they cared about the sacred number stuff then his statline wouldn't almost entirely made up of Nurgle's sacred number.
ERJAK wrote: Only fools look at toughness as the primary measure of durability.
Toughness is literally the primary measure of durability. After hitting a target the 'To Wound' roll is the first thing you do. A Daemon Primarch should never even have to worry about S4 and below. Only way to do that is to make him T8.
I get that all the invul saves and re-rolls will make him nigh indestructible, but bolters and Marine's punching him should never be something he even has to consider.
Roknar wrote: A 6 on the D chart completly bypasses his 2++ rerollable. You don't get a save vs that. One 6 on the D-chart and he dies.
I think the only 40k unit that can survive a 6 on the D-chart is the khorne mower. It minimum 7 unsaveable wounds.
T7 vs T8 is a pretty big difference. There is lots and lots of stuff that can still wound T7.
That doesn't really negate the contention that Magnus is extremely durable, though, given that ANYTHING that gets 6'd by a D weapon is dead (With only the the larger Titans/GMCs and models protected by Void Shields avoiding that fate, and the former are still often greviously wounded even if not instagibbed)
And Magnus is a Flying Monstrous Creature, which doesn't seem to be getting a lot of attention here. So long as he stays in the air (and there's not much reason for him not to, unless you want him to go melee something to death), non-Skyfire units are snap-shooting at him. Between T7, a minimum of 4++ reroll 1s (and for all intents and purposes, probably most commonly a minimum of 3++ reroll 1s, or roughly a 78% negation of wounds), and often forcing snap-shots, I suspect Magnus will be quite difficult to actually put down in the game.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Toughness is literally the primary measure of durability. After hitting a target the 'To Wound' roll is the first thing you do. A Daemon Primarch should never even have to worry about S4 and below. Only way to do that is to make him T8.
Durability is based on Toughness and Wounds.
Survivability, on the other hand- being a flier does a lot for that, as does the invul save. The only flying creatures that are T8 are Anggrath, the Lord of Change character, and the Harridan. And being a flier, once he is in the air, a majority of the ranged D weapons in the game can't hit him, being blasts.
If he is 300+ points, he better come with EW and IWND. On top of a high Invulnerable save. Since he is a Primarch, he should come packing a number of things anyway, EW being one of them, so if he packs those those I will be okay.
What would be kind of cool is if, when he gets Perils of the Warp, instead of any of the negatives, something positive happens on all numbers. 1s can just be nothing gained, but also nothing lost.
A normal daemon prince tricked out can come to 370pts!
From what we see of Magnus' statline, he is already much better than a bog standard daemon prince. I don't get where this 300+ thing is coming from, other than perhaps the mind achingly absurd price of a wraithknight.
I would be flabbergasted to see him at a price point less than 550. Don't get yourselves all excited for a 320pt Magnus. That will only lead to disappointment. I mean, i hope i'm wrong, but have you seen the cost of chaos LOW's?
A normal daemon prince tricked out can come to 370pts!
From what we see of Magnus' statline, he is already much better than a bog standard daemon prince. I don't get where this 300+ thing is coming from, other than perhaps the mind achingly absurd price of a wraithknight.
I would be flabbergasted to see him at a price point less than 550. Don't get yourselves all excited for a 320pt Magnus. That will only lead to disappointment. I mean, i hope i'm wrong, but have you seen the cost of chaos LOW's?
Well, since he takes up the Lord of War slot, you still need to take a Sorcerer or Daemon Prince as an HQ. So he already comes at a heftier price than a straight kitted-out DP runs.
And I hope that he is a sign that they are going to start making the Chaos LoWs reasonably priced.
A normal daemon prince tricked out can come to 370pts!
From what we see of Magnus' statline, he is already much better than a bog standard daemon prince. I don't get where this 300+ thing is coming from, other than perhaps the mind achingly absurd price of a wraithknight.
I would be flabbergasted to see him at a price point less than 550. Don't get yourselves all excited for a 320pt Magnus. That will only lead to disappointment. I mean, i hope i'm wrong, but have you seen the cost of chaos LOW's?
Well, since he takes up the Lord of War slot, you still need to take a Sorcerer or Daemon Prince as an HQ. So he already comes at a heftier price than a straight kitted-out DP runs.
And I hope that he is a sign that they are going to start making the Chaos LoWs reasonably priced.
A) I don't think adding the point price of a Sorcerer or DP is appropriate in costing Magnus, given both are at least somewhat decent for their points in their own right (and can potentially generate warp charges for Magnus, which is always useful).
B) Magnus is being introduced in a Campaign book, and I'd not only be surprised if he wasn't in at least one (if not more) formations, I'd be absolutely flabbergasted if taking him in that formation wasn't so mindbogglingly useful that you'd never see him appear any other way.
Roknar wrote: A 6 on the D chart completly bypasses his 2++ rerollable. You don't get a save vs that. One 6 on the D-chart and he dies.
I think the only 40k unit that can survive a 6 on the D-chart is the khorne mower. It minimum 7 unsaveable wounds.
T7 vs T8 is a pretty big difference. There is lots and lots of stuff that can still wound T7.
That doesn't really negate the contention that Magnus is extremely durable, though, given that ANYTHING that gets 6'd by a D weapon is dead (With only the the larger Titans/GMCs and models protected by Void Shields avoiding that fate, and the former are still often greviously wounded even if not instagibbed)
And Magnus is a Flying Monstrous Creature, which doesn't seem to be getting a lot of attention here. So long as he stays in the air (and there's not much reason for him not to, unless you want him to go melee something to death), non-Skyfire units are snap-shooting at him. Between T7, a minimum of 4++ reroll 1s (and for all intents and purposes, probably most commonly a minimum of 3++ reroll 1s, or roughly a 78% negation of wounds), and often forcing snap-shots, I suspect Magnus will be quite difficult to actually put down in the game.
I agree. I made a similar point earlier on.
I was adressing this part:
"He WILL have a rerollable 2++ He WILL have eternal warrior, if he was a GMC on top of that he'd be basically unstoppable. You on chance now is the 1-36 chance that a ranged D weapon hits him through invis and 6s him out."
For all his eternal warrior 2++ re-rollable shenanigans...he'll still die to a single well rolled D hit.
The 1 in 36 would be from his save, which wouldn't help in this case. It would be a 1 in 6 chance due to snapshotting a FMC or less if he becomes grounded.
Grounding him is going to be rare but that's not the point. Against D his extra protection isn't going to help beyond forcing snapshots.
And if he ever does get into a brawl with a knight, all bets are off.
So most games I expect people to ignore him and just focus on denying the witch. He'll be pretty darn resilient vs psychic shriek too since that allows invulnerables.
Still, should you ever want to charge something, he'll have to endure getting hit by just about everything since T7 allows so many weapons to potentially wound him.
You'd think a daemon primarch should be above fearing small arms fire.
Wow. Some...intense discussion.
If spoilers aren't up before Friday night/Saturday UK time, we'll know what's what then. Personally, I'm excited for this release and to become a Thousand Sons player.
Then Mortarion should be T9. And GUO's should be T8.
Then again so should some of the larger 'Nid beasties, but GW is petrified of T's above 7 for some reason.
And while I'm venting, all walkers should have Toughness values. Marine Dread/Chaos Dread/Deff Dread/Deff Jam - all T8. Kans/Sentinels T5. Defilers/Ad-Mech Walker T9. Stupid bloody rules... RAR!
Roknar wrote: A 6 on the D chart completly bypasses his 2++ rerollable. You don't get a save vs that. One 6 on the D-chart and he dies.
I think the only 40k unit that can survive a 6 on the D-chart is the khorne mower. It minimum 7 unsaveable wounds.
T7 vs T8 is a pretty big difference. There is lots and lots of stuff that can still wound T7.
That doesn't really negate the contention that Magnus is extremely durable, though, given that ANYTHING that gets 6'd by a D weapon is dead (With only the the larger Titans/GMCs and models protected by Void Shields avoiding that fate, and the former are still often greviously wounded even if not instagibbed)
And Magnus is a Flying Monstrous Creature, which doesn't seem to be getting a lot of attention here. So long as he stays in the air (and there's not much reason for him not to, unless you want him to go melee something to death), non-Skyfire units are snap-shooting at him. Between T7, a minimum of 4++ reroll 1s (and for all intents and purposes, probably most commonly a minimum of 3++ reroll 1s, or roughly a 78% negation of wounds), and often forcing snap-shots, I suspect Magnus will be quite difficult to actually put down in the game.
I agree. I made a similar point earlier on.
I was adressing this part:
"He WILL have a rerollable 2++ He WILL have eternal warrior, if he was a GMC on top of that he'd be basically unstoppable. You on chance now is the 1-36 chance that a ranged D weapon hits him through invis and 6s him out."
For all his eternal warrior 2++ re-rollable shenanigans...he'll still die to a single well rolled D hit.
The 1 in 36 would be from his save, which wouldn't help in this case. It would be a 1 in 6 chance due to snapshotting a FMC or less if he becomes grounded.
Grounding him is going to be rare but that's not the point. Against D his extra protection isn't going to help beyond forcing snapshots.
And if he ever does get into a brawl with a knight, all bets are off.
So most games I expect people to ignore him and just focus on denying the witch. He'll be pretty darn resilient vs psychic shriek too since that allows invulnerables.
Still, should you ever want to charge something, he'll have to endure getting hit by just about everything since T7 allows so many weapons to potentially wound him.
You'd think a daemon primarch should be above fearing small arms fire.
It's 1/36 if he doesn't have a save. You didn't read the math right, to d out magnus in the air the wraithknight has to roll a 6 to hit and a 6 to wound which is a 1/36 chance. Including non-6 results would be silly as even with 3++ rerolling ones the damage would be inconsequential.
Also, to the person who said a walker should be t9, do you kbow why GW hates t8+? Because that level of toughness is just short of immune to being hurt. At t9 t10 the only cost effective ways to kill something are with grav, gauss, poison, and wounding on other stats. Even Lascannons are largely useless against t8-t10 because of how prohibitive the cost of them is. Having anything be T9 or T10 baseline is silly and incredibly bad for the game, screw the fluff in this case.
SickSix wrote: It's pretty shocking he isn't T8. He is a gawd dang DEMON PRIMARCH! The fact that a bolter could wound him is insulting.
I hope he comes with every other stupid USR to make him more survivable.
He is a tzeentch psyker. He will be completely impossible to kill outside of an incredibly fortunate 6 to hit 6 to D which pretty much nothing in the game survives anyway.
Roknar wrote: A 6 on the D chart completly bypasses his 2++ rerollable. You don't get a save vs that. One 6 on the D-chart and he dies.
I think the only 40k unit that can survive a 6 on the D-chart is the khorne mower. It minimum 7 unsaveable wounds.
T7 vs T8 is a pretty big difference. There is lots and lots of stuff that can still wound T7.
That doesn't really negate the contention that Magnus is extremely durable, though, given that ANYTHING that gets 6'd by a D weapon is dead (With only the the larger Titans/GMCs and models protected by Void Shields avoiding that fate, and the former are still often greviously wounded even if not instagibbed)
And Magnus is a Flying Monstrous Creature, which doesn't seem to be getting a lot of attention here. So long as he stays in the air (and there's not much reason for him not to, unless you want him to go melee something to death), non-Skyfire units are snap-shooting at him. Between T7, a minimum of 4++ reroll 1s (and for all intents and purposes, probably most commonly a minimum of 3++ reroll 1s, or roughly a 78% negation of wounds), and often forcing snap-shots, I suspect Magnus will be quite difficult to actually put down in the game.
I agree. I made a similar point earlier on.
I was adressing this part:
"He WILL have a rerollable 2++ He WILL have eternal warrior, if he was a GMC on top of that he'd be basically unstoppable. You on chance now is the 1-36 chance that a ranged D weapon hits him through invis and 6s him out."
For all his eternal warrior 2++ re-rollable shenanigans...he'll still die to a single well rolled D hit.
The 1 in 36 would be from his save, which wouldn't help in this case. It would be a 1 in 6 chance due to snapshotting a FMC or less if he becomes grounded.
Grounding him is going to be rare but that's not the point. Against D his extra protection isn't going to help beyond forcing snapshots.
And if he ever does get into a brawl with a knight, all bets are off.
So most games I expect people to ignore him and just focus on denying the witch. He'll be pretty darn resilient vs psychic shriek too since that allows invulnerables.
Still, should you ever want to charge something, he'll have to endure getting hit by just about everything since T7 allows so many weapons to potentially wound him.
You'd think a daemon primarch should be above fearing small arms fire.
It's 1/36 if he doesn't have a save. You didn't read the math right, to d out magnus in the air the wraithknight has to roll a 6 to hit and a 6 to wound which is a 1/36 chance. Including non-6 results would be silly as even with 3++ rerolling ones the damage would be inconsequential.
Also, to the person who said a walker should be t9, do you kbow why GW hates t8+? Because that level of toughness is just short of immune to being hurt. At t9 t10 the only cost effective ways to kill something are with grav, gauss, poison, and wounding on other stats. Even Lascannons are largely useless against t8-t10 because of how prohibitive the cost of them is. Having anything be T9 or T10 baseline is silly and incredibly bad for the game, screw the fluff in this case.
Ah, sorry, my bad. I was reading it like you thought the 2++ would make him hard to kill vs D, assuming a 6 on the D chart. That would also be a 1 in 36 chance to get through his save if he could save that. Or 1 in 6 to hit and then die.
You are of course right. It's a 1 in 36 chance to outright kill a flyer with a D hit from the ground.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, hmm. I don't think I'll be pikcing up wrath of magnus as a limited. The psychic cards looks sexy but I'm assuming the rules will be in those floppy softbacks and those look pretty meh to me. Especially the demon part. That'll be more like a flyer with only 22 pages. That's what the leak said right?
H.B.M.C. wrote: Then Mortarion should be T9. And GUO's should be T8.
Then again so should some of the larger 'Nid beasties, but GW is petrified of T's above 7 for some reason.
And while I'm venting, all walkers should have Toughness values. Marine Dread/Chaos Dread/Deff Dread/Deff Jam - all T8. Kans/Sentinels T5. Defilers/Ad-Mech Walker T9. Stupid bloody rules... RAR!
Kans/Sentinels going from AV10 to T5 is a pretty big drop in their survivability against small arms. Pulse Rifles go from needing 5s to glance and 6s to pen to 4s to wound with that change.
Perhaps the Reason Magnus is T7 and NOT a GMC is Because
1. GW Saw how OP the Wraithknight was and Vowed NEVER to do that again
2. GW can see that some people will think "Magnus? A Daemon Primarch? Hes gonna be IMPOSSIBLE to kill" and so Made him T7 so S4 weapons can hurt him and Not a GMC so Poison, Fleshbane etc works against him
3. GW is Removing GMCs in 8th
Kans/Sentinels going from AV10 to T5 is a pretty big drop in their survivability against small arms. Pulse Rifles go from needing 5s to glance and 6s to pen to 4s to wound with that change.
But then they don't get crippled by a pen roll and keep marching?
Kans/Sentinels going from AV10 to T5 is a pretty big drop in their survivability against small arms. Pulse Rifles go from needing 5s to glance and 6s to pen to 4s to wound with that change.
But then they don't get crippled by a pen roll and keep marching?
Instead they get crippled by weight of small arms fire?
Kans/Sentinels going from AV10 to T5 is a pretty big drop in their survivability against small arms. Pulse Rifles go from needing 5s to glance and 6s to pen to 4s to wound with that change.
But then they don't get crippled by a pen roll and keep marching?
Instead they get crippled by weight of small arms fire?
That's a better alternative. They'd at the very least have an okay save too.
Kans/Sentinels going from AV10 to T5 is a pretty big drop in their survivability against small arms. Pulse Rifles go from needing 5s to glance and 6s to pen to 4s to wound with that change.
But then they don't get crippled by a pen roll and keep marching?
Pen results are least of kans worries. With HP2(W2) odds of being blown by it are pretty slim and most results are not crippling.
T5 would mean also doubling efficiency for bolters and make it possible to kill even with LASGUNS which before couldn't hurt it.
Overall T5 would be huge nerf.
Frankly fixing vechile vs MC shouldn't be done by making vehicles MC. It should be done by making vehicles good enough! Frankly there IS difference between how organic and mechanical things work so playing them in same way is pretty silly. Problem isn't that there are MC's and vehicles. Problem is some things that should be vehicles are MC's and the rule balance is pretty bad. Fix those 2 issues rather than removing vehicle rules completely.
Sentinels and Killa Kanz would be easier to wound as MC's with T5, but you could give them 3 wounds and a 4+ save to make up for that. When converting walkers to monstrous creatures the toughness value isn't everything; just adjust the saves and number of wounds if toughness is an issue
Kans/Sentinels going from AV10 to T5 is a pretty big drop in their survivability against small arms. Pulse Rifles go from needing 5s to glance and 6s to pen to 4s to wound with that change.
But then they don't get crippled by a pen roll and keep marching?
He simply applied the wrong T value. AV10 is essentially T6, from there the values increase together, for example AV11 is T7. We already have HP's on vehicles which are for all intensive purposes wounds except currently vehicles have no armor save but even worse if you roll higher then needed to "wound" a vehicle, it has debilitating consequences. Imagine if I shot a krack missile S8 at your Tervigon T6 or essentially AV10 but so long as I rolled better then a 2, 3+, we rolled on a unit damaged chart and he could be forced to snap fire next turn at minimum. It is the number one reason why MC's are SOOOOOO painfully better then vehicles.
And before someone shouts, "yea brah but grav" grav is so obviously broken right now and in dire need of a rewrite. There is currently no reason for taking none grav items when there is the "option."
If we look at how Fantasy MC were converted to AoS.
Quick example would be Zombie Dragon: Fantasy W6 5+ Save AoS W14 4+ Save
If we used a metric like this you could see a Sentinel being T5-6 with 8 Wounds and a 4-5+ Save. They could add a new special rule like Mechanical which would mean the model always gets it's save unless the weapon has the Heavy, Rend/Armourbane or a Strength value of 7-8 or more rule. There are many ways to do it and I would guess they add the Rend mechanic from AoS.
As for Grav, all Grav weapons should be changed to Ap- or at best Rend -1 (They should reintroduce rending to 40K, Orks used to have it with their Choppas in 3E if I'm not mistaken).
Tzeentch’s Horrors get a rules update: Pink Horrors can now split into two Blue Horrors upon their death. And Blue Horrors can then further split into Brimstone Horrors when they die. Both Blue Horrors and Brimstone Horrors are available to include in your forces, both as units in their own right, or to represent splintered Pink Horrors.
Correct me if I'm wrong but there are no Brimstone Horrors available at the moment? Are we looking at a new kit for Flamers or am I completely out of the loop?
It's like people expect their opponents to be incapable of killing Magnus. Seems like an unreasonable expectation. He already is a FMC so most of your high strength or D strength is gonna outright miss him without Skyfire, so what's the big deal? We also haven't seen his other rules yet... he may have FNP, or -1 strength of shooting against him, or psychic void shields, or who else knows? Wait for the whole thing to come out before losing your freaking minds.
Quick question, does anyone even bother with the blue horrors rule? I always forget that pink horrors have this rule.
Also what do people think of not just blue horrors but now brimstone? Layers of horrors inside of horrors. On the one hand we have more things to remember and role for but on the other hand these are independent models now, potential fire nurglings for Tzeentch?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MadCowCrazy wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong but there are no Brimstone Horrors available at the moment? Are we looking at a new kit for Flamers or am I completely out of the loop?
MadCowCrazy wrote: Tzeentch’s Horrors get a rules update: Pink Horrors can now split into two Blue Horrors upon their death. And Blue Horrors can then further split into Brimstone Horrors when they die. Both Blue Horrors and Brimstone Horrors are available to include in your forces, both as units in their own right, or to represent splintered Pink Horrors.
Correct me if I'm wrong but there are no Brimstone Horrors available at the moment? Are we looking at a new kit for Flamers or am I completely out of the loop?
That's the exalted flamer from the chariot kit, just put on a different base. I guess we will see a repackage of the blue and brimstone horrors, as the only way at the moment to make a unit of these guys is to buy loads of Silver Tower boxes and I dont think many people are gonna do that.
Had a look at GWs website and the flamer kit sold there says it's plastic, I don't remember them getting plastic flamers? When did this happen? The box art looks really old, like 3E old and I believe flamers were first metal and then finecast but I don't recall them being plastic and there are no pictures of a plastic sprue on GWs website.
The Flamer in the pic above is from the Chariot of Tzeentch, I don't believe I've seen those brimstone horrors before either or is there a kit with them out?
Edit:
I guess we will see a repackage of the blue and brimstone horrors
This makes sense, the Pink Horror plastic box isn't that old, didn't they get a new kit with the End Times or something. So a new box with blue and brimstone makes sense. How big are blue suppose to be? Before you just used differently colored horrors, are they smaller in the fluff? Trying to imagine what the box would be like? 5 blue and 5 brimstone? 10 blue and 5 brimestone? 10 blue box and a separate brimstone box ala Nurglings? Simply no blue box at all since you can just use pink horrors? So only a small 5-10 base box similar to Nurglings?
I find the last example the most plausible, no blue horror box but a small box of Brimstone Horrors
A Town Called Malus wrote: Kans/Sentinels going from AV10 to T5 is a pretty big drop in their survivability against small arms. Pulse Rifles go from needing 5s to glance and 6s to pen to 4s to wound with that change.
Yeah but then the Kan/Sentinel gets an armour save.
Blues are half the size of pinks and brimstones are half again but come at 2 per base. The question is will it be 2 blues per pink ala old fluff ans 2 brim per blue or 1 to 1.
Quick example would be Zombie Dragon:
Fantasy W6 5+ Save
AoS W14 4+ Save
If we used a metric like this you could see a Sentinel being T5-6 with 8 Wounds and a 4-5+ Save. They could add a new special rule like Mechanical which would mean the model always gets it's save unless the weapon has the Heavy, Rend/Armourbane or a Strength value of 7-8 or more rule. There are many ways to do it and I would guess they add the Rend mechanic from AoS.
As for Grav, all Grav weapons should be changed to Ap- or at best Rend -1 (They should reintroduce rending to 40K, Orks used to have it with their Choppas in 3E if I'm not mistaken).
In second edition 40k all weapons modified armors saves.
Skullhammer wrote: Blues are half the size of pinks and brimstones are half again but come at 2 per base. The question is will it be 2 blues per pink ala old fluff ans 2 brim per blue or 1 to 1.
Exactly the same as AoS.
1 Pink = 2 Blues
1 Blue = 1 Base of Brimstone.
Blue horrors returning is very cool! I'm intrigued about what they're planning with horrors... when was the last time pink horrors split into two blue horrors in 40k? I remember it but can't figure out when they were written out of the game (except for the minor special rule)
Horrors could become a crazy horde unit if this plays out as it might do
Snake Tortoise wrote: Blue horrors returning is very cool! I'm intrigued about what they're planning with horrors... when was the last time pink horrors split into two blue horrors in 40k? I remember it but can't figure out when they were written out of the game (except for the minor special rule)
Horrors could become a crazy horde unit if this plays out as it might do
I'd say 4th, just before the souped up codex hit us hard in the jimmies, i don't remember then still doing the splitting in the 4th/5th ed Demons codex though...
Red Corsair wrote: He simply applied the wrong T value. AV10 is essentially T6, from there the values increase together, for example AV11 is T7. We already have HP's on vehicles which are for all intensive purposes wounds except currently vehicles have no armor save but even worse if you roll higher then needed to "wound" a vehicle, it has debilitating consequences. Imagine if I shot a krack missile S8 at your Tervigon T6 or essentially AV10 but so long as I rolled better then a 2, 3+, we rolled on a unit damaged chart and he could be forced to snap fire next turn at minimum. It is the number one reason why MC's are SOOOOOO painfully better then vehicles.
And before someone shouts, "yea brah but grav" grav is so obviously broken right now and in dire need of a rewrite. There is currently no reason for taking none grav items when there is the "option."
T6 for kans would still work differently than av. Including opening up vulnerability to stuff that before couldn't and frankly shouldn't be able to hurt them.
Don't make vehicles and MC's same. Keep them different but make them both useful. And make what should be vehicles vehicles.
I think the issue most players have is with walkers not standard vehicles, walkers are in a strange place rules wise as they act like a monsterous creature on the table top but even big powerful ones can be killed by one shot.
I think removing the vehicle damage table for walkers would instantly solve their weaknesses
Since Pink Horrors are basically becoming what I hoped they would become, I now hope that means the Greater (or was it Lesser? I can never remember with Tzeentch) Loci that dives you D3 Blue Horror attacks is either changed to something else OR gives you D3 Blue Horrors instead.
I think he is quite clearly stating that wraithbone is tougher than the flesh of a daemon. Building materials like concrete are harder to damage than any unarmoured animal. His daemonic essence is represented by his invulnerable save, not his toughness. The amount of damage he can sustain before succumbing is his 7 wounds, not his toughness. Therefore T7 and W7 compared to a wraithlord's T8 and W3 seems fine. The only strange point is the wraithlord's armour save since its body IS its armour. Maybe wraith constructs should have the high toughness but no armour save?
Forcemajeure wrote: Regarding Magnus not being T8+ or GMC, this is chaos we are talking about.
GW might take it easy with the power level for now, but give them a few months and they will be throwing around ridiculus survivability again
This right here is the problem. Magnus could be T1, so long as he is a Tzeentch, psychic, flying monstrous creature that doesn't need to be in melee he will be completely impossible to kill, Toughness hasn't been the best indicator of durability since 5th.
Without knowing his wargear or most of his special rules and points we can't know how strong he actually is offensively or defensively but what we do know indicates a 2++ rerollable psychic flyer that can nuke baneblades in a single shot.
Please stop the 'woah is me' stuff, this release is looking pretty choice so far so relax until rubric stats come out.
adamsouza wrote: I just assumed they were daemons. Have we actually seen the rules for them ?
Not seen rules yet but Tzaangors aren't a new concept. They exist, without specific miniatures way back in 6th edition Warhammer - Tzeentch marked Bestigor to be precise.
Other God-specific Bestigor were released around that time.
adamsouza wrote: I just assumed they were daemons. Have we actually seen the rules for them ?
Not seen rules yet but Tzaangors aren't a new concept. They exist, without specific miniatures way back in 6th edition Warhammer - Tzeentch marked Bestigor to be precise.
Other God-specific Bestigor were released around that time.
Khorngor
Pestigor
Tzaangors are actually (without miniatures) discussed in the original realms of chaos books (so 1990, when Lost and the Damned was released).
adamsouza wrote: I just assumed they were daemons. Have we actually seen the rules for them ?
Not seen rules yet but Tzaangors aren't a new concept. They exist, without specific miniatures way back in 6th edition Warhammer - Tzeentch marked Bestigor to be precise.
Other God-specific Bestigor were released around that time.
Khorngor
Spoiler:
Pestigor
Spoiler:
Tzaangors are actually (without miniatures) discussed in the original realms of chaos books (so 1990, when Lost and the Damned was released).
pink horrors splitting. Holy gak, talk about a blast from the past. THey better release a box for them and brimstone horrors, cause if they dont, it's a worthless rule
streetsamurai wrote: pink horrors splitting. Holy gak, talk about a blast from the past. THey better release a box for them and brimstone horrors, cause if they dont, it's a worthless rule
I think this has potential to become truly ridiculous depending on the rules. Here's a post I made in another thread about it, I'm sure the insanity is pretty clear...
H.B.M.C. wrote: Very glad I ordered extra Blue Horrors and Brimstone bases a while back.
Pfft, it's only worth doing if you overdo it! Here comes an army of 100 Pink Horrors! Oh? Your Eldar scatbiks killed a whole unit of 20? Then how about 40 Blue Horrors! You killed those as well? Then feast your eyes on ANOTHER 40 BRIMSTONE HORRORS!!! How many wounds will Brimstone Horrors be anyway? Will they be swarm? They are small enough? So perhaps 2w per base since there are 2 on each base? If so then 100 Pink Horrors equal 700 wounds (100 Pink Horrors, 200 Blue Horrors, 400 Brimstone Horrors). Don't forget the reason to take an army like this would be... TO SUMMON MORE PINK HORRORS!!! With the current pts costs this detachment would cost 945pts
Spoiler:
I feel really old for posting this, if you don't understand it they you were born mid 90s
I don't know the Silver Tower rules for Brimstone Horrors, having a hard time thinking of what profile they would have... BS/W/S/T/I/W/A of 2? In close combat do they simply run up to a model and explode for a S3 Ap- auto hit?
Those Tzaangors would be pretty good today. T5 2W for 10 points? They might be slow but surround a sorcerer with a huge blob of them and it'll take some work to get through them all
My fear with the Pink Horrors splitting again is a recut box of Pink Horrors(5), Blue Horrors (5-10), Brimstone Horrors (5-10), for $40-$50+, that will cost a fortune to get Horrors in any significant numbers.
They were in a good place, IMO. Especially with a warpflame host.
I dont want to have to buy 14 more boxes of models to run a unit that was working just fine for its points before. I hope some decent thought has gone into this.
@Nagash I picked up some more from Ebay to add to my Silver Tower box. Though they'll have to release boxes of tzaangors and horrors, hopefully for AoS/40K multi use. Almist bought Tzaangor bits on eBay but glad I realized that would be a dumb move. Pulled out before the prices shot up. EBay bits sellers are doing well as they release a little more info each day.
Splitting makes horror units more characterful, letting them remove say the wc3 battery stupidity they are used for now. Just make their warp fire a normal attack.
Yeah if they make Pink Horrors non-Psychic and just give them a shooting attack I'd be ok with it.
Indeed, if they follow the AoS profiles for Horrors, Pink Horrors would get a range shooting attack, blue horrors get a slightly shorter ranged shooting attack, and brimstone horrors get an even shorter and weaker shooting attack that has two shots (since they're one model).
So say 24" S4 AP5 Assault 1 Warpflame on Pink, 18" S4 AP5 Assault 1 Warpflame on Blue and 12" S3 AP6 Assault 1 Warpflame on Brimstone.
That being said though Competitive Daemon armies would probably turn into only being Flying Circuses with Nurglings or Brimstone Horrors (whichever are cheaper) with maybe Screamrestar support...
Speaking of Blue/Brimstone horrors... I wonder if and when we will be able to buy them separately? If the guesses about the Image GW posted on their community site is true and there's going to be an AoS Tzeentch release at the start of next year I'd expect that they'd come then... but who knows.
No, preorder saturday/tomorrow night for us in US will be the NZ preorder so spoilers can start coming then. Review copies are not allowed to spoil anything until then.
But he wouldn't make sense in the Fenris arc, that would be either Leman Russ or Lion el'Jonson.
FW could be opposite effect. Could be arqued having cheaper plastic version would eat more sales of expensive resin version that will be released later than otherway around.
The six boxes are:
1. Kharn's Slaughterband - (New) Kharn the Betrayer, (new)Khorne Bezerkers, Bloodletters, Bloodcrushers and a Hellbrute)
2. Eldrad's Cursing Spear - ( New) Eldrad, (New) 2 Guardian squads (can be either defenders or storm guardians, (new) 5 warlocks, 2 war walkers, Fire Prism
3. Magnus' Weavers of Change- (New) Magnus Daemon Prince, (New) Prosperine Terminators, (New) Rubric Marines (ranged), Rubric Marines (Close Combat), Chaos Predator Tank
4. Iyanna's Phoenix Host - (New) Iyanna Arienal the Oracle of Ynnead, (New) Arcane Battleseer Firesight (Can also be built as standard Arcane Battleseer) (Can also be built as 10 Wraithguard/Blades,2 Wraithlords, 5 Dire Avengers
5. Ahriman's Unholy Covenant - (New) Ahriman,(New) N'kari (can also be built as standard Keeper of Secrets) (New) 2 Chaos Sorcerors, Rubric Marines, Pink Horrors of Tzeentch, Daemonettes of Slaanesh, Chariot of Tzeentch
6. Sythrac's Anguish Bringer's - (New) Valossian Sythrac the Blade of Vect, (New) 5 Kabalite Trueborn, Kabalite Warriors, (New) Incubi, 2 Venoms, 1 Raider, 1 Razorwing Jetfighter
7. The Laughing Host - (New) Prince Yriel Champion of Cegorach, (New) Sylandri Veilwalker, 3 Harlequin Troupes, 2 Starweavers, (New) 1 Sentinel of the Black Library.
As for Primarch this was released like a week ago.
But he wouldn't make sense in the Fenris arc, that would be either Leman Russ or Lion el'Jonson.
FW also hasn't made the Lion yet either. So there's that. Honestly, despite rooting for Dorn, I really think it is going to be Lion. He is the only Loyalist primarch confirmed to actually be at Fenris.
BUT, we don't even know if the Loyalist Primarch will have anything to do with the fight at Fenris. Dorn or Guilliman would make sense for the Black Crusade.
Looking forward to Wrath of Magnus – Thousand Sons
This weekend, the Thousand Sons return to the galaxy of the living (sort of) in the new Wrath of Magnus book with legions of new plastic miniatures. Today, we take a little look at what you can expect from them on the tabletop.
Exalted Sorcerers
Each one is more powerful than a Space Marine Librarian, and rightfully so, these warrior mystics are steeped in 10,000 years of Warp-acquired arcane lore, and each is the master of a dread Silver Tower of Tzeentch.
In the game, an army with a few Exalted Sorcerers is going to dominate the psychic phase, especially alongside the Aspiring Sorcerers that lead every Thousand Sons squad of Rubric Marines. They have a few options, from Discs of Tzeentch to a range of new Artefacts, and they are included in several Formations that further augment their magical supremacy.
Rubric Marines
The basic troops of the Thousand Sons (if such a term can be used), each is a walking suit of ancient armour compelled by the vengeful spirit of it’s former occupant…and a bit of dust.
There are quite a few changes to this unit’s rules, not least of which are their, now expanded, weapon options. As you might expect, all of these are in some way sorcerously-powered, from the warpflamers that the entire squad can be equipped with (!) to the deadly soulreaper cannon, which can mow-down even power armoured foes with ease.
Scarab Occult Terminators
Still bearing the name they took during the Great Crusade 10,000 years back, the elite of the Thousand Sons are – if anything – more deadly than when they still drew breath.
The unit has inferno combi-bolters as standard, but can be further boosted with heavy warpflamers, soulrepaer cannons and hellfyre missile packs, making them one of the most deadly ranged units available to a Chaos Space Marines player.
The Sorcerer leading the unit is a powerful psyker in his own right (note: not an Aspiring Sorcerer, a full on bona-fide Sorcerer). With a Mastery Level of 2, and access to 11 psychic disciplines, he adds a lot of flexibility to how this squad can function in your army.
And that’s only the start – also in the book are new detachments and Formations, psychic powers, Warlord Traits, artefacts, objectives, missions and more.
All these new models, and the new Wrath of Magnus book, are available to order tomorrow morning, wherever you are in the world.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Holy crap! The Terminators have a ML2 Sorcerer playing the part of sergeant in every squad! That is awesome.
Must. Resist. Desire. To. Start. ANOTHER. Army.
+ access to ELEVEN DISCIPLINES!
I just started Thousand Sons before this new release was announced, timing was perfect. I guess I truly have Tzeentch watching over me .
Couple of things, can we confirm that "Soul Reaper Cannons" are AP3? its stated
the deadly soulreaper cannon, which can mow-down even power armoured foes with ease.
This boads well for the Warp flamers IMO. Units of 20 with 9 bolters, 9 flamers, AS and Soul Reaper will make up the bulk of my force if this is true. (got 30 rubics already, 3 units of 20 sounds like a horrible surprise for my local russ dogs player )
11 Disciplines... hmm that means they either don't have their own unique discipline (unlikely) or that lack access to one of the BRB or heretic astartes disciplines.
I suppose it's also possible that GW are treating Sanctic and Malefic as one discipline rather than 2, but I doubt it.
I wonder which Discipline they lack? I hope its Sanctic for fluff reasons. I'd be a bit disappointing if once again TSons psykers lacked access to one of the 5 Cult Disciplines.
Also the wording 'full blown sorcerer' leads me to believe that the Scarab Occult's character will have WS5 and W2 like HQ Sorcerers do. If that the case then.. wow.
So aspiring sorcerers in power armor squads will only have Tzeentch discipline, and maybe the mandatory roll on Tzeentch discipline remains as well for all psykers?
But he wouldn't make sense in the Fenris arc, that would be either Leman Russ or Lion el'Jonson.
FW could be opposite effect. Could be arqued having cheaper plastic version would eat more sales of expensive resin version that will be released later than otherway around.
To be fair, the rumor wasn't strictly "Forge World hasn't made the Primarch yet" but "It won't be Leman Russ because of the timing".
It's still possible for the loyalist Primarch returning to be one that has a model, but will get a radically different loadout.
Personally? I'm hoping for Corax with a hand-crafted sniper rifle that he's been running around over the missing timeframe plugging traitors and rabblerousers alike with.
The six boxes are:
1. Kharn's Slaughterband - (New) Kharn the Betrayer, (new)Khorne Bezerkers, Bloodletters, Bloodcrushers and a Hellbrute)
2. Eldrad's Cursing Spear - ( New) Eldrad, (New) 2 Guardian squads (can be either defenders or storm guardians, (new) 5 warlocks, 2 war walkers, Fire Prism
3. Magnus' Weavers of Change- (New) Magnus Daemon Prince, (New) Prosperine Terminators, (New) Rubric Marines (ranged), Rubric Marines (Close Combat), Chaos Predator Tank
4. Iyanna's Phoenix Host - (New) Iyanna Arienal the Oracle of Ynnead, (New) Arcane Battleseer Firesight (Can also be built as standard Arcane Battleseer) (Can also be built as 10 Wraithguard/Blades,2 Wraithlords, 5 Dire Avengers
5. Ahriman's Unholy Covenant - (New) Ahriman,(New) N'kari (can also be built as standard Keeper of Secrets) (New) 2 Chaos Sorcerors, Rubric Marines, Pink Horrors of Tzeentch, Daemonettes of Slaanesh, Chariot of Tzeentch
6. Sythrac's Anguish Bringer's - (New) Valossian Sythrac the Blade of Vect, (New) 5 Kabalite Trueborn, Kabalite Warriors, (New) Incubi, 2 Venoms, 1 Raider, 1 Razorwing Jetfighter
7. The Laughing Host - (New) Prince Yriel Champion of Cegorach, (New) Sylandri Veilwalker, 3 Harlequin Troupes, 2 Starweavers, (New) 1 Sentinel of the Black Library.
Which one of these boxed sets was/will be released?
Sure, there's individual components that have been released but Faeit and Naftka run off the same mechanics as carnival barkers and fortunetellers:
"We add just enough known to make you think we're astonishing or legitimate and the rest can be happenstance"
Spoiler:
As for Primarch this was released like a week ago.
And it was debunked as (yet again) someone from B&C or the like making up crap and then "being surprised" when it got spread all over the place.
All of this Tzeentch stuff looks incredible... the new rubrics and horrors splitting into blue and brimstone horrors is sorely tempting me. The only thing keeping me on task with my Alpha Legion right now is the Traitor Legion codex on the way
Sonic Keyboard wrote: So aspiring sorcerers in power armor squads will only have Tzeentch discipline, and maybe the mandatory roll on Tzeentch discipline remains as well for all psykers?
I F KING HOPE NOT. That was the most thing about the unit IMO. It gimps them so much, even if the new lore is better than the old one.
My only two gripes with the original unit were:
1. Way way way overpriced.
2. Being locked into a single lore.
But I fully expect this to be the case......even if I hate it.
The Sorcerer leading the unit is a powerful psyker in his own right (note: not an Aspiring Sorcerer, a full on bona-fide Sorcerer). With a Mastery Level of 2, and access to 11 psychic disciplines, he adds a lot of flexibility to how this squad can function in your army.
11 powers. The basic rule book powers each have 7 (6 + primaris) and the god's have 4 (3+ primaris ). That's 11.
So Tzeentch + ? Something new? Biomancy? Divination? The fire one?
The Sorcerer leading the unit is a powerful psyker in his own right (note: not an Aspiring Sorcerer, a full on bona-fide Sorcerer). With a Mastery Level of 2, and access to 11 psychic disciplines, he adds a lot of flexibility to how this squad can function in your army.
11 powers. The basic rule book powers each have 7 (6 + primaris) and the god's have 4 (3+ primaris ). That's 11.
So Tzeentch + ? Something new? Biomancy? Divination? The fire one?
Access to 11 disciplines does not mean they'll have 11 powers at the same time.
The Lion is at Fenris because the DA brought their entire fleet, including The Rock, to bomb the daylights out of it.
As far as psychic disciplines, CSM do not have access to divination (haven't since our 6.0 codex). There are 7 rulebook disciplines, we have access to 6. We got 4 new ones in Traitor's Hate, bringing it up to 10. Finally the Lore of Tzeentch (presumably with updated powers to bring it up to 7 powers at last), to make 11.
I really hope that the mandatory roll on the God lore goes away. Having sorcerers that can access USEFUL primaris powers and disciplines would be amazing. An entire Thousand Sons army with Psychic Shriek? Please put your hands together for the return of the Psychic Choir! An entire Thousand Sons army with access to the Heretech primaris? All your tank are belong to me. An entire Thousand Sons army with access to the biomancy primaris would ruin many TEQ armies. The possiilities are so exciting!
Kraytirous wrote: The Lion is at Fenris because the DA brought their entire fleet, including The Rock, to bomb the daylights out of it.
What you are forgetting is, that it has been rectonned that The Lion is at the center of The Rock, healed from his wounds and is ready to wake up at any moment. Only the Watchers in the Dark and the Emperor know this. The Dark Angels themselves don't even know he is still alive and with them all this time.
So no as Kraytirous said, that The Rock and Dark Angels are there ready to start or already started bombing from what I know.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Saw this on Lady Atia's site in the comments section. Don't recall seeing this here.
Latro_the_Zombie > Daniil Osudin • 2 hours ago
rumours from 4chan
Rubric Marines
Same stats as a basic chaos space marine, but has a 5++. 140pts for 5 with aspiring sorcerer. 22pts per extra, up to 5 extra.
Inferno bolters: same stats as a bolter but ap3 and soulblaze.
Warpflamer: 10pts upgrade, ap3 flamer with soulblaze.
Soulreaper cannon: 30pts upgrade. s5, ap3, heavy 5.
Aspiring sorcerer is a level 1 psyker.
Scarab occult terminators:
300pts for 5, 50pts for each additional one. ws5, bs4, s4, t4, w2, i4, a2, ld10, 2+/4++
Leader has 3 wounds and 3 attacks.
Can sweeping advance.
Combi inferno bolters are same as inferno bolters but twin linked.
Heavy warpflamer is 10pts and is a strength 5 warpflamer.
Soulreaper cannon is same as above.
Hellfyre missile packs: dual profile- s4, ap3, small blast or s8 ap3. 20pts per model.
Saw this on Lady Atia's site in the comments section. Don't recall seeing this here.
Latro_the_Zombie > Daniil Osudin • 2 hours ago
rumours from 4chan
Rubric Marines
Same stats as a basic chaos space marine, but has a 5++. 140pts for 5 with aspiring sorcerer. 22pts per extra, up to 5 extra.
Inferno bolters: same stats as a bolter but ap3 and soulblaze.
Warpflamer: 10pts upgrade, ap3 flamer with soulblaze.
Soulreaper cannon: 30pts upgrade. s5, ap3, heavy 5.
Aspiring sorcerer is a level 1 psyker.
Scarab occult terminators:
300pts for 5, 50pts for each additional one. ws5, bs4, s4, t4, w2, i4, a2, ld10, 2+/4++
Leader has 3 wounds and 3 attacks.
Can sweeping advance.
Combi inferno bolters are same as inferno bolters but twin linked.
Heavy warpflamer is 10pts and is a strength 5 warpflamer.
Soulreaper cannon is same as above.
Hellfyre missile packs: dual profile- s4, ap3, small blast or s8 ap3. 20pts per model.
Those stats are from 4chan and the poster wasn't willing to show proof. There was also a post further down that said they weren't 100% accurate. So I'd be careful with that leak.
If it turns out to be true though, Rubrics somehow managed to become worse :/
LightKing wrote: See I thought The Lion was in an underground tunnel, I didn't know he was in The Rock, a space ship
so The Lion will be the first loyalist to come back it seems
Well it's both, The Rock is literaly a chunk of Caliban, the Dark Angels home planet, that has been turned into a space ship. So technically he is underground.
The fact that the Rock is currently above Fenris does make The Lion the most suitable candidate to be the first loyalist Primarch in plastic, but who knows who it's really going to be.
Great with Sanguinius back we can get pure geneseed and cure the Blood Angels
No more furious charge and death company
I think the first loyalist primarch would be from a less popular legion, if they brought back (say) Corax they could also sell a Raven Guard codex and a bunch of new units, might entice people to start playing Raven Guard.
Huh, if that's true for the termites chaos may have a workable deathstar on their hands. Lack of ap2 would be the problem but it'd survive most anything. Guess we'll have to wait and see.
We have not seen what their kopesh swords do. We can speculate it as normal ps with ap3. But who knows of they have anything else like shred or armor Bane.
50 points is steep but also 2 wounds, the ability to sweep, strong leadership. Excited to see the rest.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Termies that is. Do normal termies have ws5?
Skerr wrote: We have not seen what their kopesh swords do. We can speculate it as normal ps with ap3. But who knows of they have anything else like shred or armor Bane.
50 points is steep but also 2 wounds, the ability to sweep, strong leadership. Excited to see the rest.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Termies that is. Do normal termies have ws5?
Don't have dex in front of me.
All power swords are AP3...
We don't know what the base stats of the Terminators will be. It is unlikely they will be WS5 though.
The art and that diorama of the Emperor facing off against Horus while Sanguinius is dead on the ground is one of the most memorable things about Warhammer, no way are they gonna retcon his death.
Was there any fluff on what they did with Sanguinius' body? Like could there be a possibility that someone tried to heal him or was it outright stated Sanguinius died there?
The Sorcerer leading the unit is a powerful psyker in his own right (note: not an Aspiring Sorcerer, a full on bona-fide Sorcerer). With a Mastery Level of 2, and access to 11 psychic disciplines, he adds a lot of flexibility to how this squad can function in your army.
11 powers. The basic rule book powers each have 7 (6 + primaris) and the god's have 4 (3+ primaris ). That's 11.
So Tzeentch + ? Something new? Biomancy? Divination? The fire one?
Access to 11 disciplines does not mean they'll have 11 powers at the same time.
I never said they would.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kraytirous wrote: The Lion is at Fenris because the DA brought their entire fleet, including The Rock, to bomb the daylights out of it.
As far as psychic disciplines, CSM do not have access to divination (haven't since our 6.0 codex). There are 7 rulebook disciplines, we have access to 6. We got 4 new ones in Traitor's Hate, bringing it up to 10. Finally the Lore of Tzeentch (presumably with updated powers to bring it up to 7 powers at last), to make 11.
Ah! I was mixing up powers and disciplines! Thanks for that!
2 wound terminators with improved invul saves? Leader with 3 wounds and ML 2? AP3 weapons? All for 300 points? I am not so sure about that. That would make them substantially better than regular terminators for the points, especially if they have any access to AP2. Unless we have a substantial amount of power creep in this release, it seems a bit far fetched to me. I could be wrong though.
Everyone else has the potential to reappear in 40K.
*spoilers for HH Praetorian of Dorn*
Spoiler:
I thought it was just about 100% certain that Alpharius gets killed by Dorn? Like torn in half by chainsword, no surviving, no doubt who it was, game over. Of course there are two primarchs for the AL, so he could certainly make a return as Omegon, but my thoughts were that the primarch died there.
Skerr wrote: We have not seen what their kopesh swords do. We can speculate it as normal ps with ap3. But who knows of they have anything else like shred or armor Bane.
50 points is steep but also 2 wounds, the ability to sweep, strong leadership. Excited to see the rest.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Termies that is. Do normal termies have ws5?
Don't have dex in front of me.
All power swords are AP3...
We don't know what the base stats of the Terminators will be. It is unlikely they will be WS5 though.
Yes I mentioned AP3 as standard for PS.
WS5 is based on the rumored statline which has not been proven or disproven.
The whole point of Alpharius had many doubles, and we won't ever know if it was him. Because just because.
*spoilers for HH Praetorian of Dorn*
Spoiler:
I thought it was just about 100% certain that Alpharius gets killed by Dorn? Like torn in half by chainsword, no surviving, no doubt who it was, game over. Of course there are two primarchs for the AL, so he could certainly make a return as Omegon, but my thoughts were that the primarch died there.
Saw this on Lady Atia's site in the comments section. Don't recall seeing this here.
Latro_the_Zombie > Daniil Osudin • 2 hours ago
rumours from 4chan
Rubric Marines
Same stats as a basic chaos space marine, but has a 5++. 140pts for 5 with aspiring sorcerer. 22pts per extra, up to 5 extra.
Inferno bolters: same stats as a bolter but ap3 and soulblaze.
Warpflamer: 10pts upgrade, ap3 flamer with soulblaze.
Soulreaper cannon: 30pts upgrade. s5, ap3, heavy 5.
Aspiring sorcerer is a level 1 psyker.
Scarab occult terminators:
300pts for 5, 50pts for each additional one. ws5, bs4, s4, t4, w2, i4, a2, ld10, 2+/4++
Leader has 3 wounds and 3 attacks.
Can sweeping advance.
Combi inferno bolters are same as inferno bolters but twin linked.
Heavy warpflamer is 10pts and is a strength 5 warpflamer.
Soulreaper cannon is same as above.
Hellfyre missile packs: dual profile- s4, ap3, small blast or s8 ap3. 20pts per model.
Those stats are from 4chan and the poster wasn't willing to show proof. There was also a post further down that said they weren't 100% accurate. So I'd be careful with that leak.
If it turns out to be true though, Rubrics somehow managed to become worse :/
I will bite...please tell me how they got worse?
They are cheaper, they can have an ap3 flamer. Their bolters have soul blaze without having to pay for the icon, there is a strong chance that they will not be SNP and possibly have grenades.
So PLEASE tell me how they got worse?
The whole point of Alpharius had many doubles, and we won't ever know if it was him. Because just because.
*spoilers for HH Praetorian of Dorn*
Spoiler:
I thought it was just about 100% certain that Alpharius gets killed by Dorn? Like torn in half by chainsword, no surviving, no doubt who it was, game over. Of course there are two primarchs for the AL, so he could certainly make a return as Omegon, but my thoughts were that the primarch died there.
Spoiler:
If it's anything at all, ADB, one of the authors behind the Heresy series, is on record stating he personally thinks Alph is dead. It's not absolutely conclusive but I take it as a strong nudge towards it having happened.
I will bite...please tell me how they got worse?
They are cheaper, they can have an ap3 flamer. Their bolters have soul blaze without having to pay for the icon, there is a strong chance that they will not be SNP and possibly have grenades.
So PLEASE tell me how they got worse?
My favorite tinfoil hat theory is Alpharius AND Omegon are going to reveal themselves as alive during the final chapter of this black crusade and betray chaos as they assault terra, playing the 10,000 year long con.
The whole point of Alpharius had many doubles, and we won't ever know if it was him. Because just because.
*spoilers for HH Praetorian of Dorn*
Spoiler:
I thought it was just about 100% certain that Alpharius gets killed by Dorn? Like torn in half by chainsword, no surviving, no doubt who it was, game over. Of course there are two primarchs for the AL, so he could certainly make a return as Omegon, but my thoughts were that the primarch died there.
Spoiler:
If it's anything at all, ADB, one of the authors behind the Heresy series, is on record stating he personally thinks Alph is dead. It's not absolutely conclusive but I take it as a strong nudge towards it having happened.
LightKing wrote: Im just confused with the statuses of the primrachs now
The Traitor side there are 7 daemon primarchs currently, and 2 that are dead are Horus and Curze
but on the loyalist side, 8 are still alive and the only one dead is Sanguinius, right?
Angron, Magnus (see OP ), Mortarion, Fulgrim, Lorgar and Perturabo are all Daemon Princes now (that's 6).
Alpharius, Horus, and Curze are officially dead (unofficially, we don't know about Alpharius).
Loyalist side we have 4 fates.
Run off into EoT to fight chaos: Russ, Corax, Khan (webway for Dark Eldar)
Dead: Ferrus Manus (Iistvan Dropsite massacre), Dorn (The Scouring, his skeletal hand is now on The Phalanx), Sanguinius (Battle of Terra)
Disappeared but definitely alive: Vulkan
Severely wounded but healing: Roboute Guilliman (he's on Macragge), Lion El'johnson (he's in The Rock)
The total tally is 6 daemon primarchs, 1 possibly alive primarch for the traitors.
The loyalists have 3 dead primarchs, 4 active, 2 out of action primarchs.
Fortunately for the loyalists, all of their active primarchs are in very vague places and can truly spring up out of nowhere to shoulder their way into any plot.
I will bite...please tell me how they got worse?
They are cheaper, they can have an ap3 flamer. Their bolters have soul blaze without having to pay for the icon, there is a strong chance that they will not be SNP and possibly have grenades.
So PLEASE tell me how they got worse?
Worse invuln.
What if they are just refering to the aura of dark glory 5++ invul and haven't included the mark of Tzeentch? That would bring them back to 4++.
New datasheets, special rules and wargear for:
- Magnus the Red
- Ahriman
- Exalted Sorcerer
- Tzaangors
- Rubric Marines
- Scarab Occult Terminators
6 Formations for Codex: Chaos Space Marines:
- War Cabal
- War Coven
- Tzaangor Warherd
- Sekhmet Conclave
- Ahriman’s Exiles
- Rehati War Sect
Plus new and updated psychic disciplines:
- an updated Discipline of Tzeentch
- Sinistrum Discipline
- Heretech Discipline
- Ectomancy Discipline
- Geomortis Discipline
Thousand Sons special rules:
- 6 Thousand Sons Warlord Traits
- Chaos Artefacts of the Thousand Sons
- Thousand Sons Grand Coven Detachment
- 6 Thousand Sons Tactical Objectives
- 3 Thousand Sons Altar of War missions
New datasheets, special rules and wargear for:
- Pink Horrors
- Blue Horrors
- Brimstone Horrors
Plus new and updated daemonic loci and icons of Chaos.
Daemons of Tzeentch special rules:
- Tzeentchian Warp Storm table
- Pandemoniad of Tzeentch Detachment
- 6 Daemons of Tzeentch Tactical Objectives
- 3 Daemons of Tzeentch Altar of War missions
Preorders are up on the New Zealand site. The tzaangors are one of the weirdest releases I have ever seen from GW. It is a full multi part kit with options for a musician and a standard bearer, clearly designed for AOS. The box also comes with 2 identical sprues each containing 5 bolt pistols and 5 chainswords. Along with the photoshopped box art, this really feels like a rushed release and probably a last minute addition to the range.
I will bite...please tell me how they got worse?
They are cheaper, they can have an ap3 flamer. Their bolters have soul blaze without having to pay for the icon, there is a strong chance that they will not be SNP and possibly have grenades.
So PLEASE tell me how they got worse?
Worse invuln.
So everything else is better except the invul which is one point worse, when we have been hinted at heavily that formations may improve invul saves?
I wonder if anyone at GW even considered that the new pink horrors rule is completely cumbersome in a game where you bring units of 15-20 models. More slowing down of the game just kills it further.
I will bite...please tell me how they got worse?
They are cheaper, they can have an ap3 flamer. Their bolters have soul blaze without having to pay for the icon, there is a strong chance that they will not be SNP and possibly have grenades.
So PLEASE tell me how they got worse?
Worse invuln.
So everything else is better except the invul which is one point worse, when we have been hinted at heavily that formations may improve invul saves?
I wasn't agreeing with them, just stating what seems to be the point most seem to be bringing up.
Ha, seems the Tzaangor is primarily the AoS kit as the chainswords and pistols are on their own little sprue, some of those cc weapons look kick ass and the banner looks delicious.
FoxPhoenix135 wrote: 2 wound terminators with improved invul saves? Leader with 3 wounds and ML 2? AP3 weapons? All for 300 points? I am not so sure about that. That would make them substantially better than regular terminators for the points, especially if they have any access to AP2. Unless we have a substantial amount of power creep in this release, it seems a bit far fetched to me. I could be wrong though.
Regular Terminators are very poor and unused anyways, might as well have an option that is.
mrhappyface wrote: Although the TS stuff is up on the site there are no blue/brimstone horrors in their own box or with the pink horrors. Can anyone else find them?
Nah they aint up, they'll prob be on their own week once the major releases are out.
Hmmm... Tzaangors appear to be viable as bolt pistol/chain sword or 2 close combat weapon variants.
Seems to me the kit was meant for AoS and the little upgrade sprue with chain sword sand guns was included to make them part of the release. Very neat shields included.
unmercifulconker wrote: I love that 2 handed sword, did not expect this much variety with the Tzaangors.
the weapons are wicked cool to see that you can buy a box, even for AoS, and then have some nice arms for converting 40K cultists!!!
i foresee a lot of conversions for Inq28 using these bits...
I'm glad the tzaangors turned out to be a decent kit, and the magnus model is just all around amazing. If I didn't blow all my money on BoP and heresy stuff i'd be really into this release. I'm just glad tzeentch finally got his time in the spotlight, heres to hoping for nurgle next.
unmercifulconker wrote: I love that 2 handed sword, did not expect this much variety with the Tzaangors.
the weapons are wicked cool to see that you can buy a box, even for AoS, and then have some nice arms for converting 40K cultists!!!
i foresee a lot of conversions for Inq28 using these bits...
cheers
jah
Definitely, those shields will look great on some Tzeentch marauders/warriors.
tzaangor port over to 40k is lazy (Sad panda told us it would be, but I had hope they would at least sci fi the design a bit). Basically the aos kit with a small sprue of guns and chainsword. Hope this will not become trend
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hate the paint job on Magnus. Will need to see another one to make an opinion on him
I'm not sure how I feel about the tassets. They added tassets to Kharn too. I was going to remove them from kharn but if they are part of GW's new vision for chaos I might have to hold back. Don't feel like removing tassets from everything.
BoomWolf wrote: For something so niche like tzaangors, that's plenty enough.
This entire release is far more than I expected.
Updates to rubrics, several new 1ksons units, updated ahriman, freaking Magnus, updated deamon rules.
The tzaangors could not exist at all, and I wouldn't feel anything is missing.
actually, screw what I just said. I have bought some Khorne marauders to convert to cultist, and it was a pain in the ass to do so. WOuld have been really happy to have a scifi weapons sprue with them. And since AOS is such a non-entity where I live, I won't even see them used in both games
Slayer le boucher wrote: I like them it makes more sense as a defensive gear then how the Power armors where made till now.
They make sense, especially with the older marks that had exposed cables and what not. But it has too much of a fantasy look imho and makes them look closer to knights than power armour once you add all the bling.
I also find they look more intimidating without them.
Slayer le boucher wrote: I like them it makes more sense as a defensive gear then how the Power armors where made till now.
They make sense, especially with the older marks that had exposed cables and what not. But it has too much of a fantasy look imho and makes them look closer to knights than power armour once you add all the bling.
I also find they look more intimidating without them.
Well arn't Space Marines, basically Space Knights?...
Kraytirous wrote: The Lion is at Fenris because the DA brought their entire fleet, including The Rock, to bomb the daylights out of it.
What you are forgetting is, that it has been rectonned that The Lion is at the center of The Rock, healed from his wounds and is ready to wake up at any moment. Only the Watchers in the Dark and the Emperor know this. The Dark Angels themselves don't even know he is still alive and with them all this time.
So no as Kraytirous said, that The Rock and Dark Angels are there ready to start or already started bombing from what I know.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Saw this on Lady Atia's site in the comments section. Don't recall seeing this here.
Latro_the_Zombie > Daniil Osudin • 2 hours ago
rumours from 4chan
Rubric Marines
Same stats as a basic chaos space marine, but has a 5++. 140pts for 5 with aspiring sorcerer. 22pts per extra, up to 5 extra.
Inferno bolters: same stats as a bolter but ap3 and soulblaze.
Warpflamer: 10pts upgrade, ap3 flamer with soulblaze.
Soulreaper cannon: 30pts upgrade. s5, ap3, heavy 5.
Aspiring sorcerer is a level 1 psyker.
Scarab occult terminators:
300pts for 5, 50pts for each additional one. ws5, bs4, s4, t4, w2, i4, a2, ld10, 2+/4++
Leader has 3 wounds and 3 attacks.
Can sweeping advance.
Combi inferno bolters are same as inferno bolters but twin linked.
Heavy warpflamer is 10pts and is a strength 5 warpflamer.
Soulreaper cannon is same as above.
Hellfyre missile packs: dual profile- s4, ap3, small blast or s8 ap3. 20pts per model.
GW said that the aspiring sorcerers can be added to Rubric and Scarab units, implying they are optional. So that may shed some doubt on the rumors, or GW is wrong in how they described their units.
Hmm, I find it strange how there's no datacard release for the Thosand Sons/Tzeentch Daemons Tactical Objectives, and no card for the updated Tzeentch Discipline.
Also looking at it the Ltd Edition only comes with the Change powers from Warzone Fenris Part 1.
Also hey Tzeentch Daemons get their own themed Warp Storm table. That's pretty nifty.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Hmm, I find it strange how there's no datacard release for the Thosand Sons/Tzeentch Daemons Tactical Objectives, and no card for the updated Tzeentch Discipline.
Also looking at it the Ltd Edition only comes with the Change powers from Warzone Fenris Part 1.
Also hey Tzeentch Daemons get their own themed Warp Storm table. That's pretty nifty.
Could end up being a week 2 gimmick, I mean they have them in the LE
OK...first part, fluff coming in a bit. I need to eat still. But here ya go for rules! ...spoiler: the fluff is cool, imo smile.png
Combat Phase podcast will be happy to cover the new Thousand Sons soon. But in the meantime this is the initial text review of Warzone Fenris 2: Wrath of Magnus. The hardcover case comes with a fluff book and a rule book so you can build your own themed Thousand Sons army or Tzeentch demons army. It’s worth the $75 USD every bit. Amazing art, a stunning new line of models which I honestly did not expect. Sadly the website is old so episodes are on iTunes or @kennylull on twitter or www.facebook.com/combatphase and episodes go up every week. Check out over 50 episodes with Black Library and the most recent ep. 172 an interview with the man himself, Aaron Dembski-Bowden on Master of Mankind, the Black Legion series, his books, writing styles, and what’s to come. Direct link:
Check out models on GW's website, of course.
Rules:
For someone loving the fluff of the Thousand Sons (TS) and now becoming a first-time CSM player this book is amazing. I can’t say with any certainty on this, the day of pre-release in Nov., how the Traitor’s Legion book (resale Dec 3) will address TS but I have faith in Tzeentch that it will at the worst mirror this and at the best, grant options for TS fans/players of 30K & 40K—but that’s just my educated guess. msn-wink.gif
OK, so how does this work? Kickass models—stunning and a wider selection than I could have imagined—accompany new paints to build your TS collection. Demons do NOT have any new model kit releases at this time. However, blue horrors and brimstone horrors (they’re so darn cute!) are available in Warhammer Quest: Silver Tower (WHQ) where you may want to look at your local GW or FLGS or online to buy, trade, or make dark pacts to acquire some. Though not confirmed, I am under the impression early in 2017 we’ll see these models boxed to be used in 40K & AoS. The Tzaangor kit has a nice selection of bits; don’t bother trying to mix WHQ Tzaangors into your 40K army, imo, just get the 40K kit and you can use those for AoS. Rubric marines make a gorgeous kit. Datasheets have units of 5 (4 + 1 aspiring sorcerer as infantry character) so the box can make the asp sorcerer + 9 marines, equipped with inferno boltguns or warp flamers. Soulreaper cannon and icon of flame…pretty. Oh, and a diverse CSM transfer sheet for other legions. Nice kit.
That’s all I have for models. Have a look on GW’s pre-order section for kit details and 360 view.
Making an army
These books are incredibly clear and perhaps that’s future-proofing in addition to an evolution of the design studio. You need CSM codex for TS and Demon codex for the Tzeentch demon army here. The TS are vicious psykers and that comes through quite clear in this WoMagnus supplement!
TS: This book contains new data sheets for Ahriman and Rubric Marines which replace their listings in the current CSM codex. The TS theme army is a Grand Coven (GC) which is made up of formations. Psykers get new and better powers and the CSM sorcerers can draw from 4 new disciplines: Sinistrum, Heretech, Ectomancy, Geomortis. We get 6 new objectives for TS focusing on psyker objectives mostly, or number 9. Also 3 cool fluffy altars of war. TS get 6 new relics, 6 new warlord traits (One gives eternal warrior!). CSM models can become TS with certain Tzeentchy condition to basically, ya know, make it work.
Special rules: detachment from CSM can become TS meeting rules (this book), then all units in a TS detachment or formation get 3 special rules (hells yeah, imo!)
1. if unit w/vet of long war (all TS except Tzaangors) affected by a blessing then invuln save better by 1 until start of your next psyker phase.
2. Units as above reroll hits every round of close combat vs. Space Wolves but also SW get hatred vs. TS
3. Rubricae becomes troops instead of elites
-Units from the formation can be in both a formation and detachment. You need your warlord in a GC as primary detachment to give the benefits to that whole primary detachment. Which is re-roll TS special warlord trait & re-roll the result of perils as well as all psykers can attempt to manifest one warp charge above their mastery level. So mastery 4 could attempt to manifest 5 powers!! Holy Psyker kickass, Batman! Oh, Eldar… ;-p
- GC is 1+ core; 0-4 command; 1+ auxiliary [TS Formations have cool benefit of re-rollingfailed saving throws of 1 when the formation uses max number of units allowed]
Core: War Cabal (formations either using healthy mix of the army) or Sehkmet Conclave (A badass Sorcerer + 3-9 scarab occult termies)
Command: Reharti, Ahriman’s Exiles, and Lord of the Legion
Aux: War Coven (magics!), Tzaangor Warherd (bray, baby!), Daemon engines (stuff from codex), and legion armory (codex armor vehicles)
Updated discipline of Tzeentch, 4 new disciplines.
designer notes new icon of flame reflects new changes since CSM codex, new inferno bolt weapons. Bolt + mark Tz = soul blaze
Can’t spoil every data sheet but some highlights:
- Ahriman at 230 HQ (rubric become troops if he’s in the army), can take a disc, psyk 4: Bio, Deamon (malefic), divination, ectomancy, geomortis, heretics, pyro, sinistrum, telekinesis, telepathy, tzeentch [The 11] and he still has Master of Deception warlord trait.
-Exalted sorcerer 160, can take disc, Pyk 2, same 11 powers, 1/per game Coruscating Beam attack instead of shooting (unlimited,S9, AP2, Heavy 1, blast, lance)
-Tzaangors 10 w/mk Tzeentch, can swap 2 hand weapons for auto pistol & chainsword, can take up to unit 30, 7pts each. relic hunter rule for fluff in case rare instance of this comes up
-Rubric marines unit 5 (4+ aspiring sorcerer), same special rules but better weapon options now. aura of dark glory, sorcery force stav, uses Tzeentch spells, can take up to 20 (23 pts each), any # of warpflamers (7 pts), sorcerer can take meltabomb, icon, gift, rhino. 1 soul reaper cannon per 10 marines (25 pts).
-Scarab occult terms 5 (4 + sorcerer) sorcerer has WS 5, 2 wounds- 1 above normal troops, and cast 11 disciplines. units can be 10 (40/model), heavy weapon options per every 5; per 5 one hellfire missile rack, land raider road trip available
-Magnus is a beast at 650 points but he has some crazy powers. psyk 5, draws line of sight to any model on the battlefield, harnesses charges on 2+, never perils, 4+ invuln, and besides knowing all Tzeentch & Change spells he has that Gaze you heard about, charge 5 (but remember all bonuses TS get!) 18’ D, Ap 1, assault 1, soulblaze! His staff is S user, AP2, force, soul blaze and transmogrify. Hot.
—so as with making the TS army, it’s all about formations and besides re-rolling saves of 1, they are reflections of fluff in names and benefits. As the Rehati should be from the HH novel A Thousand Sons (by Graham MacNeill), this expensive sect can harness on 3+ and draw line of sight anywhere. Makes me happy! War cabals of rubrics and terms; war covens of sorcerers; herds of tzaangors and a sekhmet conclave of terms + sorcerers.
-these inferno weapons all S4, AP 3; soul reaper cannon 24”, S5, AP 3, Heavy 4 rending; and the warp flame weapons have warp flame special rule.
Demons
Also 3 alter of war, 6 new fluffy tactical objectives, a new Tzeentch warp storm chart if your warlord is in the primary detachment (like TS model for creating a battle-forged army above)
Pink Horrors here replace the ones from the Demons codex. 90 for 10, up to 20 (9 pts/each). 1 is iridescent horror who can take 20 pts of rewards combination) and take choice of icons and icon upgrades
Blue (50pts for 10) and brimstone horrors (30 pts for 10) have been added as units. Pink horrors die and split into 2 blue which die and split into brimstones if you have them. An awesome return to the game! One formation even doubles the amount of horrors spawned from their colorful kin. Horrors use Change discipline.
-contains new loci, transmogrification in this book replaces the one from the demons codex because horrors split differently now. Demons of Tzeentch can be demon of tzeentch detachments. Pink horrors can carry new icons as well.
-You make a Pandemoniad of Tzeentch as your primary detachment but for warlord traits you need WF 1: Curse of the Wulfen.
the Pandemoniad gives you 1 better invuln save to a max 3+ and you can reroll the warlord trait (from WF1) AND the tzeentch warp storm table.
Same as a GC in format.
-1+ Core - Warpflame Host, Lorestealer Host
-0-3 Command - Lord of Pandemonium or Omniscient Oracles (Kairos plus more Lords of Change to help the blind bastard actually see the present, lol!)
-1+ aux -[this is where the rest of your demons of tzeentch come in] Agents of Tzeentch, Forgehost (soul grinders), Burning Skyhost, Brimstone Conflaguraions and Groups of Heralds.
No doubt the condition is MoT and VotLW.
I can't see the current GW imposing anything more than that so they don't discourage people from buying the entire CSM model range.
Just real quick, then writing final fluff review part of this...
CSM can be TS and treated in all ways as CSM w/following modifications:
1. no rare unites besides Ahriman and Big Red
2. If can take Mk Tz they must
3. Units w/Mk of other 3 gods can't play our reindeer games
4. all units that can be upgraded to VotLWmust at no cost. 5. any demon princes must have demon of Tz
6. psykers from the detachment can choose to generate all of their powers from new Tzeentch discipline (primaris + 6)
then they'd benefit from the 3 TS detachment/formation rules.
Veteran noob thank you so much for taking the time. Very exciting.
Too bad about no 2w on occult termies but to good to be true I thought. Also 40 a mod instead of 50 is good.
Are kopesh ps just ap 3 with nothing else?
Ug, exhausting but exciting. and the forums have been kind so it's all good Yeah, only scarab occult sorcerer (srgt, basically) has 2 wounds. They all have cool looking power khopeshes but they are swords. Everything save tzaangors has AP 3 in TS now but need the big heroes for better armor punching.
Platuan4th wrote: I really hope that "CSM units can become TS" thing is true. My TS Raptors and Havoks will be so happy.
I hope so too, since that would create the precedent that we could see Noise Termies and Havocs agien. I seem to recall at a point their was even Noise Bikers would could swap their twin-linked bolters for sonic blasters back in 3.5..... But I could be wrong/a old miss reading.
Ahriman at 230 HQ (rubric become troops if he’s in the army)
WARNING! WARNING! DANGER! DANGER!
Can Rubrics be Troops without Ahriman? That sets a very dangerous precedent if not, meaning the fears of the old days where the only way to play various Marine Chapters was to bring a special character would bleed over to Chaos. Want Noise Marines as troops? Better bring Lucius? Want a Death Guard army? I 'spose Typhus better show up to every battle.
I would really like clarification/correction on this.
mortetvie wrote: GW said that the aspiring sorcerers can be added to Rubric and Scarab units, implying they are optional. So that may shed some doubt on the rumors, or GW is wrong in how they described their units.
Not quite. The GW website says that one model in those units can be built as a Sorcerer, no different to any squad that contains parts of a character. You never have to build that character though, and may be buying a box to bulk up other squads you already have. That does not mean that the rules require the character.
It just means the box can be 10 Rubrics/5 Terminators or 9 Rubrics & 1 Asp Sorcerer/4 Terminators & 1 Sorcerer.
Ahriman at 230 HQ (rubric become troops if he’s in the army)
WARNING! WARNING! DANGER! DANGER!
Can Rubrics be Troops without Ahriman? That sets a very dangerous precedent if not, meaning the fears of the old days where the only way to play various Marine Chapters was to bring a special character would bleed over to Chaos. Want Noise Marines as troops? Better bring Lucius? Want a Death Guard army? I 'spose Typhus better show up to every battle.
I would really like clarification/correction on this.
mortetvie wrote: GW said that the aspiring sorcerers can be added to Rubric and Scarab units, implying they are optional. So that may shed some doubt on the rumors, or GW is wrong in how they described their units.
Not quite. The GW website says that one model in those units can be built as a Sorcerer, no different to any squad that contains parts of a character. You never have to build that character though, and may be buying a box to bulk up other squads you already have. That does not mean that the rules require the character.
It just means the box can be 10 Rubrics/5 Terminators or 9 Rubrics & 1 Asp Sorcerer/4 Terminators & 1 Sorcerer.
Don't read anything else into that.
The first question was answered. Certain formations that give three rules can make them troops also.
Aspiring Sorcerers are part of the Rubric squad, 4+1
Ahriman at 230 HQ (rubric become troops if he’s in the army)
WARNING! WARNING! DANGER! DANGER!
Can Rubrics be Troops without Ahriman? That sets a very dangerous precedent if not, meaning the fears of the old days where the only way to play various Marine Chapters was to bring a special character would bleed over to Chaos. Want Noise Marines as troops? Better bring Lucius? Want a Death Guard army? I 'spose Typhus better show up to every battle.
I would really like clarification/correction on this.
In the current Chaos Codex all the cult choices are elites right now.
BUT. A Lord with their respective god mark, unlocks the corresponding Cult Troops to that mark as a troop choice. Except Tzeetch. You get rubrics as a troop choice when a Scor has the MoT.
So what this rule more or less means in that Ahriman counts as a MoT Scor for this rule.
Virules wrote: 160 points for a lvl 2 psyker? That's so bad it can't possibly be true.
Better include a spell familiar at _least_.
considering a Sorceror ML 3, MoT with familiar is 140 pts i do hope he comes with that aswell.
while that S9 ap 2 lance blast may be nice to have its not worth 35-60 points (depending on if he really is only ML 2 and not 3)
One formation even doubles the amount of horrors spawned from their colorful kin
OH THE HORROR! THE HUMANITY OF IT ALL!!!
2000pt list 200 Pink Horrors = 2600 Wounds (200 Pink Horrors, 800 Blue Horrors and 1600 Brimstone Horrors (If Brimstone are 2w each which I don't know if confirmed)).
Thanks for sharing this, any word on the exalted sorcerers, are they as good as they look and why only the one disk in the box?
Never mind I found it, cheers
One formation even doubles the amount of horrors spawned from their colorful kin
OH THE HORROR! THE HUMANITY OF IT ALL!!!
2000pt list
200 Pink Horrors = 2600 Wounds (200 Pink Horrors, 800 Blue Horrors and 1600 Brimstone Horrors (If Brimstone are 2w each which I don't know if confirmed)).
Well according to the leak pink horrors are 90pts so it is 2650 wounds for 20 pink horrors.
I wonder if the smaller horrors will have brotherhood of psyker too: thats it, kill my pink horrors, you're only giving me more warp charge MWAHAHAHAHA!
jesus christ how many of the same characters does 40k and AOS have....same chaos, same beastmen etc.
Everything in Codex Chaos Daemons, and all units from Codex Chaos Marines that are not futuristic.
that seems quite lazy to be honest that GW shares characters for both universes
The universes were at one point linked (if not very heavily hinted at being linked); I.e the old world, the old fantasy setting, used to be a world in the 40k universe. They moved away from that but Chaos is still in both (it's such an integral part of each setting).
that seems quite lazy to be honest that GW shares characters for both universes
Lazy? Possibly. It's not a bad idea though if it generates more sales for the range. 40k is all about the mutants and whatnot anyway, so it's nice they're bringing back some variety to CSM forces.
. I like his stats. With a 4++ and being able to fly he should be able to get around without too much trouble.
Lack of GMC means he takes wounds on a 4+ 
.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20160716093739)
.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20160716093802)
KING HOPE NOT. That 
