xlDuke wrote: Yep, arquebuses seem to be an all-in type thing. The dangerous characters are very difficult to kill with them these days. It’s a shame that jezzails are so bad really, it’s often quite hard to get solid LoS with multiple arquebuses at once.
However, with the recent price cut, they're not a bad idea especially with the range. 10 Rangers with three Arqs camping an objective are just great at popping shots, with the occasional Strat to make everything hit as necessary for one squad.
Colonel Cross wrote: Well take this with a grain of salt. Death Guard were primary actors in a story with the Tau and were nowhere in the Greater Good ...
But admech are definitely in the Engine War PA book so there's not really much discussion on that.
I'm kinda hoping it's not just a generic Skitarii HQ, not because I don't want one, but because the way that little story excerpt reads Radiant Wrath is a relic, a one of a kind arcanum something special. It could be a reference to a WT or Relic that allows us to upgrade a Vanguard or Skitarii amplifying their existing abilities...or maybe it's a full-on upgrade for our troops similar to what marines get: Spend a CP upgrade a unit/character. Though I'm still not sure whether an increased range or potency of Vanguard radiant aura would be all that useful, thematic as it would be. I'm definitely excited for what the implications of Radiant Wrath actually mean thats for sure, it's a bit more specific than some of the previous PA stories.
What advantage to you have to taking a squad of 10 for 3 special weapons vs 2x5 with 2 each?
None of the stratagems that can affect vanguard/rangers i'd ever put on them over my striders or infiltrators.
Biggest reason i hate bringing squads of 10 is the morale issue in this game. Its too easy to punish a squad of 10 or more to lose more models and impossible to punish a squad of 5.
Vineheart01 wrote: What advantage to you have to taking a squad of 10 for 3 special weapons vs 2x5 with 2 each?
None of the stratagems that can affect vanguard/rangers i'd ever put on them over my striders or infiltrators.
Biggest reason i hate bringing squads of 10 is the morale issue in this game. Its too easy to punish a squad of 10 or more to lose more models and impossible to punish a squad of 5.
I don't see any unless you're short on troops slots. Same story with Ruststalkers, it's the same points for 10 as it is for 2x5 yet with 2x5 you get another princeps with extra attack and str. Though I guess you can doctrina a squad of skitarii for +1 to hit but kinda isn't worth it unless they're dragoons.
I'm kinda hoping it's not just a generic Skitarii HQ, not because I don't want one, but because the way that little story excerpt reads Radiant Wrath is a relic, a one of a kind arcanum something special. It could be a reference to a WT or Relic that allows us to upgrade a Vanguard or Skitarii amplifying their existing abilities...or maybe it's a full-on upgrade for our troops similar to what marines get: Spend a CP upgrade a unit/character. Though I'm still not sure whether an increased range or potency of Vanguard radiant aura would be all that useful, thematic as it would be. I'm definitely excited for what the implications of Radiant Wrath actually mean thats for sure, it's a bit more specific than some of the previous PA stories.
I was just being thorough, I'm personally assuming that if we're getting a generic Skitarius HQ then it'll be a dual kit for this named character. Yea, the possibility of it being a strat or relic upgrade (though to what? A vanguard alpha? Who would bother?) had crossed my mind but given that AM seemed to be lined up as the Imperial faction being focused over Knights on we are likely due a good number of toys even accounting for the ones we already know are on the way, so I feel that a new model is likely. Plus GW has been all about the character clampack models lately, particularly with the PA releases, so not getting one feels uncharacteristic.
Vineheart01 wrote: What advantage to you have to taking a squad of 10 for 3 special weapons vs 2x5 with 2 each?
None of the stratagems that can affect vanguard/rangers i'd ever put on them over my striders or infiltrators.
Biggest reason i hate bringing squads of 10 is the morale issue in this game. Its too easy to punish a squad of 10 or more to lose more models and impossible to punish a squad of 5.
If you can deal with the morale, a unit of 10 is more than twice as hard to kill as a unit of 5 with regards to Kill/Kill More in ITC.
Vineheart01 wrote: What advantage to you have to taking a squad of 10 for 3 special weapons vs 2x5 with 2 each?
None of the stratagems that can affect vanguard/rangers i'd ever put on them over my striders or infiltrators.
Biggest reason i hate bringing squads of 10 is the morale issue in this game. Its too easy to punish a squad of 10 or more to lose more models and impossible to punish a squad of 5.
10x Ryza Vanguard with 3x Plasma Caliver. Use Plasma Specialists and Doctrina.
Vineheart01 wrote: What advantage to you have to taking a squad of 10 for 3 special weapons vs 2x5 with 2 each?
None of the stratagems that can affect vanguard/rangers i'd ever put on them over my striders or infiltrators.
Biggest reason i hate bringing squads of 10 is the morale issue in this game. Its too easy to punish a squad of 10 or more to lose more models and impossible to punish a squad of 5.
Honestly morale is a non-issue. I do 10 man squads for easier use of Strats, simple as that.
Tastyfish wrote: That assumes this is a Ryza army with no plasma-kats though, in order to make that big unit the prime choice for plasma specialists.
It's why I run both Ryza Plasma Destroyers and Plasma Vanguard in a drill. Plasma Destroyers wreck havoc turn 1, they'll likely get a lot of fire in return and possibly taking a lot of losses in the process, turn 2 the Vanguard pop out of the drill and I still have a good target to use Plasma Specialists on. If you're going Ryza for Plasma Specialists having a bit of redundancy never hurt.
Tastyfish wrote: That assumes this is a Ryza army with no plasma-kats though, in order to make that big unit the prime choice for plasma specialists.
It's why I run both Ryza Plasma Destroyers and Plasma Vanguard in a drill. Plasma Destroyers wreck havoc turn 1, they'll likely get a lot of fire in return and possibly taking a lot of losses in the process, turn 2 the Vanguard pop out of the drill and I still have a good target to use Plasma Specialists on. If you're going Ryza for Plasma Specialists having a bit of redundancy never hurt.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but you can't put Kataphrons in a drill
Tastyfish wrote: That assumes this is a Ryza army with no plasma-kats though, in order to make that big unit the prime choice for plasma specialists.
It's why I run both Ryza Plasma Destroyers and Plasma Vanguard in a drill. Plasma Destroyers wreck havoc turn 1, they'll likely get a lot of fire in return and possibly taking a lot of losses in the process, turn 2 the Vanguard pop out of the drill and I still have a good target to use Plasma Specialists on. If you're going Ryza for Plasma Specialists having a bit of redundancy never hurt.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but you can't put Kataphrons in a drill
he doesnt put kata's in the drill.
the kataphrons start on the board and blow up a thing or two, the opponent then guns them down, and he deepstrikes the drill + vanguard on his turn 2 for a second wave of plasma specialist
Colonel Cross wrote: Well take this with a grain of salt. Death Guard were primary actors in a story with the Tau and were nowhere in the Greater Good ...
But admech are definitely in the Engine War PA book so there's not really much discussion on that.
I'm kinda hoping it's not just a generic Skitarii HQ, not because I don't want one, but because the way that little story excerpt reads Radiant Wrath is a relic, a one of a kind arcanum something special. It could be a reference to a WT or Relic that allows us to upgrade a Vanguard or Skitarii amplifying their existing abilities...or maybe it's a full-on upgrade for our troops similar to what marines get: Spend a CP upgrade a unit/character. Though I'm still not sure whether an increased range or potency of Vanguard radiant aura would be all that useful, thematic as it would be. I'm definitely excited for what the implications of Radiant Wrath actually mean thats for sure, it's a bit more specific than some of the previous PA stories.
I really hope it's a generic skitarii hq and not just a named character, or worse, the old 7th Ed squad upgrade. The last one especially would be functionally useless in anything above 500pts.
If the story does mean anything, I'd assume it's referring to a relic a skitarii vanguard Alpha HQ could take. Although the story makes it sound so insanely powerful that it would start killing every model on a 6x4 table turn one, I could see it just being a 6" aura debuff for enemy units near him or something. That said, this is hardly the first story we've seen with what sounds like a cool new unit or ability that turned out to be nothing more than just a story. After all, there were several stories of Imperial Guard soldiers suddenly becoming saints or pyskers in battle but that never turned into anything. Not even a real buff for pyskers beside a single random strat.
It would be easy to make a skitarii Dominus style HQ, since all you need is a headswaps to be Vanguard or Ranger with maybe some different weapon options. There's tons of cool buffs they could do, like a vanguard with an aura T debuff for enemy units, or a ranger character that assists with rerolling wound rolls or accuracy benefits to friendly skitarii. But really all we have to go on now is speculation. I do feel like there's Hope though. GW has made a running gag of giving admech players stuff they want only after much begging and pleading, I could definitely see the final skitarii/dominus interaction being "you know what, screw it, you know so much, you be in charge"
An actual Skitarii HQ would be nice if purely so that we could have a Character that can benefit from the Skitarii specific relics.
If HQ wasn't a thing and you just had to have X number characters in detachments then they wouldn't have need to faff about removing the Character keyword from princeps and skitarii alphas.
As one of my friends wanted to get into Kill Team, and as I've been playing the Mechanicus computer game, I got a box of Skitarii to start a Mechanicus Kill Team. However, as I'm planning out future expansions for the Kill Team to make it good, I'm realizing there's no getting around having a small force for 40k.
I've assembled my box of Skitarii as Rangers. My plan is to Kitbash a Manipulus, get some Vanguard Skitarii, some Infiltrators, and some Fulgurites. After playing the Mechanicus computer game, I also kinda want some Kastellan punch bots. I want to keep this force relatively small for both ease of transportation and because I'm fast running out of room to store things (I'm likely going to have to get rid of minis games that, while I enjoy greatly, no one around here plays).
While I have time to plan and paint the stuff I already have, I have a few questions:
-Regarding the Vanguard Skitarii, how important is the Plasma Cavalier? I can save money and get enough bits for 10 guys, as I have the spare heads and Rad Rifles for them, but the Plasma Cavaliers are difficult to find outside of the kit. Would it be better to just get the kit for the Plasma Cavalier or can I just save money and get the bits I need?
-I'd want an additional Tech-Priest so I can do at least a battalion detachment. I'm tempted by Daedalosus, but he's expensive money wise to get on his own. Should I still go for him, should I go for just a regular old Enginseer for utility when souping with my Guard army, or should I get a Dominus as more substantial investment?
-Are Kastellans with the fists and flamer (as I jokingly refer to as 'punch bots') any decent in the current meta?
-Anything else that's going to be a Must-have even for a small detachment? Is Ad-Mech something that should be gone into whole hog (2k+ army rather than souped) to be any decent?
1) i run 4 calivers in two units of 5 but the caveat is they ride in a dunerider. Without transports, skitarii should be barebones with the exception of 4+ arquebus on rangers.
2) kitbash daedalosus using the datasmith body, omnispex from the skitario kit and a rad beamer guntip from the dominus kit. Everyone kitbashes this guy.
3) Unfortunately, punchy kastelans are not competitive. Outside of Lucius delivery wirh Vigilus detachment stratagems, they still suffer from 4+WS and no invuln save in melee. They have relatively few attacks and only rerolls available are via canticle.
4) Disintegrator tanks are a must have in my opinion. Running three belleros equipped tanks allows you to consistently clear out enemy objectives each turn regardless of line of sight and they still carry a tonne of dakka.
Admech are above average and excel when built for purpose. You wont find much success in a random list because our strategies rely on saturation of units and depth of threats to gain board control and stay ahead.
1) i run 4 calivers in two units of 5 but the caveat is they ride in a dunerider. Without transports, skitarii should be barebones with the exception of 4+ arquebus on rangers.
2) kitbash daedalosus using the datasmith body, omnispex from the skitario kit and a rad beamer guntip from the dominus kit. Everyone kitbashes this guy.
3) Unfortunately, punchy kastelans are not competitive. Outside of Lucius delivery wirh Vigilus detachment stratagems, they still suffer from 4+WS and no invuln save in melee. They have relatively few attacks and only rerolls available are via canticle.
4) Disintegrator tanks are a must have in my opinion. Running three belleros equipped tanks allows you to consistently clear out enemy objectives each turn regardless of line of sight and they still carry a tonne of dakka.
Admech are above average and excel when built for purpose. You wont find much success in a random list because our strategies rely on saturation of units and depth of threats to gain board control and stay ahead.
Thanks for the responses. I've got a plan now for kitbashing Daedalosus now as well. I don't think I'll need the Omnispex and cannon as I've got a plan using some leftover bits from a Ridgerunner I impounded into my Guard army (Radar dish + Arc Pistol for the gun, and a spare arm, the camera thingy, and a good amount of Green Stuff for the Omniscanner).
Sad to hear about the Kastellans, they're a beautiful and fantastically silly model.
Based on what you're saying, Ad Mech is a "go big or go home" army in that you really need to invest into it rather than trying to step into it halfway or collect piecemeal.
If that's the case, then I'll probably just get what I need for Kill Team for the moment. Ad Mech units are complicated (and good looking) enough in design that will take time to paint and I don't want to game with any until they're painted. I'll likely collect a full army someday, but I've got a few other armies and games I still need to either paint or decide what I'm going to do with first.
punching kastellans need a massive statboost or huge pricedrop. They just arent that deadly, 3 attacks hitting on 4s with a single medium-grade gun for the same price of the dreadnaughts that hit 4-5 times on 3s with an equal or stronger attack and still have a single or pair of decent guns.
Yeah they can fight twice but then they cant use the gun they still pay for, and if they go into that stance theyre probably locked there forever.
Its just funny that a mere 10pt difference makes them turn from pathetic to ridiculous...punch vs dakka is definitely not a 10pt difference in terms of power lol
Or in comparison to the venerable dreadnought.
For 143 points it hits on 2s, rerolls 1s,d3 plasma, S 14, 3 more wounds, 5++, 6+++, fills HQ slot, melee hit reroll aura, +1 S if in the same combat, 5 attacks with angels of death, 4 boltershots, litanies, especially of hate which gives a melee reroll aura
0XFallen wrote: Or in comparison to the venerable dreadnought.
For 143 points it hits on 2s, rerolls 1s,d3 plasma, S 14, 3 more wounds, 5++, 6+++, fills HQ slot, melee hit reroll aura, +1 S if in the same combat, 5 attacks with angels of death, 4 boltershots, litanies, especially of hate which gives a melee reroll aura
You're mixing up a bunch of stuff here. Chap Dreads are what you're referring to and they don't get Plasma stuff.
0XFallen wrote: Or in comparison to the venerable dreadnought.
For 143 points it hits on 2s, rerolls 1s,d3 plasma, S 14, 3 more wounds, 5++, 6+++, fills HQ slot, melee hit reroll aura, +1 S if in the same combat, 5 attacks with angels of death, 4 boltershots, litanies, especially of hate which gives a melee reroll aura
You're mixing up a bunch of stuff here. Chap Dreads are what you're referring to and they don't get Plasma stuff.
Full Name: chaplain venerable dreadnought.
I see they cant get plasma, must be an error but they can take other weaponry like twin lascannons
0XFallen wrote: Or in comparison to the venerable dreadnought.
For 143 points it hits on 2s, rerolls 1s,d3 plasma, S 14, 3 more wounds, 5++, 6+++, fills HQ slot, melee hit reroll aura, +1 S if in the same combat, 5 attacks with angels of death, 4 boltershots, litanies, especially of hate which gives a melee reroll aura
You're mixing up a bunch of stuff here. Chap Dreads are what you're referring to and they don't get Plasma stuff.
Full Name: chaplain venerable dreadnought.
I see they cant get plasma, must be an error but they can take other weaponry like twin lascannons
You just get the TL Lascannon as nothing else takes advantage of the BS2+ they have.
Even dakka bots aren't worth it for me. Too much risk for too little.
Lose the downsides to the protocols and we might be in business. Otherwise i'll take disintigrators over them for my heavy choices and if hordes are my issue we actually have quite a few options now we can stuff corpuscarii in duneriders. Even a bunch of autocannon chickens works better for me.
And if we're going back to the whole wrath of mars thing again, we have better options for MW generation in priests and better options for everything any config fo those robots do.
Octovol wrote: Even dakka bots aren't worth it for me. Too much risk for too little.
Lose the downsides to the protocols and we might be in business. Otherwise i'll take disintigrators over them for my heavy choices and if hordes are my issue we actually have quite a few options now we can stuff corpuscarii in duneriders. Even a bunch of autocannon chickens works better for me.
And if we're going back to the whole wrath of mars thing again, we have better options for MW generation in priests and better options for everything any config fo those robots do.
I agree, especially now that we generate VP for objectives each round in the new missions.
They can only deal dmg but cant move, need a lot of cp, cawl and thus mars, but they dont deal enough dmg in that regard, especially against T6+
Seems like GW is asking us to model for advantage. The plane can be built on a stand or on the ground from what theyve said. Can't wait to be called names for not putting the stand and having it be easier to transport.
Yeah it seems really problematic to allow people the option to build flyers at ground level, especially flying transports. That option alone is probably worth 30% of its value in points, because it means it can't be killed T1 on any board with decent terrain, whereas if it's modeled in the air, it's usually a sitting duck.
Kanluwen wrote: Can't you park a transport on a Skyshield Landing Pad?
I wouldn't be shocked, in all seriousness, if this is a sign of things to come with a "Vertical Take Off or Landing" bit for flyers.
if you forfeit the 5++ that the skyshield gives, you can heal a flyer for D3 if it stayed for the whole turn on it. (meaning it only works with hovering flyers)
It still doesnt allow you to remvoe it from its base
The wings are so wide there's little chance of you hiding it regardless lol
That gunship needs more options than heavy phosphor blasters though. Their final statement is that they all bring new tactical options...only the rules will tell I guess because right now we're looking at long range flechette blasters and flamers on the pteraxii 3 flyers with minimal visible firepower and cavalry with phosphor blast weaponry, arguably our worst tech in 8th, and fast scouts, which actually has the most potential imo.
dadamowsky wrote: Considering how huge our deployment footprint already is, putting that plane with those wings on a ground floor is very low on my priority list
you dont have to jam them right in terrain, just position them so your opponents army cant all see it at the same time. It can help compared to having all the flyers visible.
Kanluwen wrote: Can't you park a transport on a Skyshield Landing Pad?
I wouldn't be shocked, in all seriousness, if this is a sign of things to come with a "Vertical Take Off or Landing" bit for flyers.
if you forfeit the 5++ that the skyshield gives, you can heal a flyer for D3 if it stayed for the whole turn on it. (meaning it only works with hovering flyers)
It still doesnt allow you to remvoe it from its base
Read where I said "sign of things to come"
Some differentiation between flyer types wouldn't be unwelcome in an 8.5, with things that can land actually able to.
The grenades on the Skystalkers might be interesting, they might even be little bombs for dropping during the movement phase. Less convinced over presumably Assault 5, 18" S3 shots though - if that's the assumed profile. Might have to run the numbers in case they're snipers though.
[edit] Hmm, then they'd be crazy doing 0.7 mortals each.
If the Sterylizors have longer than 8" range flamers, I'm sure they'll be interesting - not just for drop flaming or screen clearing, but to put within units as a charge defence.
Lot of phosphor coming out, which might have some stratagem coming out to boost it (like the old rule where things hit by it lost cover from other shooting). Though whether the flyers would be worth taking then I don't know - there's a lot of other potential sources of phosphor about.
Vineheart01 wrote: only thing i got out of that article is the gargoyles do indeed have 2 variants, not just the cavalry.
Which is mildly annoying because they look way too thin to magnetize lol
We knew that with the Las Vegas Open though...just some people kept arguing that the flamer was more likely a "unit upgrade". The text from that event though made it fairly clear that both Serberys and Pteraxii were dual-kits.
The only really big thing to come out of today was names for the two Pteraxii variants and the three Archaeopter variants.
That and there's no other new mechanicus units in the video like there was with the genestealer cult. So that is probably the lot - probably no Skitarii HQs or Blackstone utilising nullifers (proposed from the rumour engine).
Though of course, 7 new units across 3 new boxes isn’t exactly gloomy to begin with haha.
This will be the first PA book to release without a character if we don’t get a Skitarii HQ. So possibly we get the named Metallica HQ (boo unless Metallica get massive buffs in PA), or possibly Daemons get something (or a Chaos Knight character kit like the Imperials have Canis Rex!).
Octovol wrote: The wings are so wide there's little chance of you hiding it regardless lol
That gunship needs more options than heavy phosphor blasters though. Their final statement is that they all bring new tactical options...only the rules will tell I guess because right now we're looking at long range flechette blasters and flamers on the pteraxii 3 flyers with minimal visible firepower and cavalry with phosphor blast weaponry, arguably our worst tech in 8th, and fast scouts, which actually has the most potential imo.
There was design sketches and the like of the Archaeopter at LVO that showcased the weapons for the gunship. Wasn't just heavy phosphors.
Whether we'll get them or not remains to be seen. I can't find the stuff anymore, which is irksome.
It does look like the fighter variant will get lascannons although this could be the transport
If the fighter can replace its 2 heavy phosphor blasters with 2 more lascannons then this maybe and ok replacement for ironstriders, 4 lascannons and 2 heavy stubbers with an innate -1 to hit if it gets that. Maybe strafing run too for +1 to hit.
Octovol wrote: The wings are so wide there's little chance of you hiding it regardless lol
That gunship needs more options than heavy phosphor blasters though. Their final statement is that they all bring new tactical options...only the rules will tell I guess because right now we're looking at long range flechette blasters and flamers on the pteraxii 3 flyers with minimal visible firepower and cavalry with phosphor blast weaponry, arguably our worst tech in 8th, and fast scouts, which actually has the most potential imo.
There was design sketches and the like of the Archaeopter at LVO that showcased the weapons for the gunship. Wasn't just heavy phosphors.
Whether we'll get them or not remains to be seen. I can't find the stuff anymore, which is irksome.
Ah yeah I remember now. Still lascannons are kinda pointless on something that flies imo. Shorter range with more flexibility would be better. Most of the time models with 48"+ range don't even move for most of a match which is wasted on highly mobile platforms.
yeah because they take the least amount of thinking to balance them.
No fancy rules, no wonky prices, no unusual rate of fire or range. Just a 20pt S9 Ap3 D6 damage gun at 48" range.
I would have rather it gotten an even heavier variant of the Arc weaponry.
I don't think we'll get stat previews this weekend. That seems to be part II of the Adepticon preview, which would likely be model related not rules. Rules are usually incidental when it comes to the seminars.
Yeah hard to know without seeing the rules for the new models, but I do think all the sculpts are gorgeous, particularly the cavalry. Hopefully they aren't all competing for the same role in the army.
Apart from the exciting new models, what are people hoping for from the book? Personally hoping for a few more playable warlord traits and relics and maybe a stratagem to make Infiltrators and Ruststalkers a bit better.
TheArchmagos wrote: Yeah hard to know without seeing the rules for the new models, but I do think all the sculpts are gorgeous, particularly the cavalry. Hopefully they aren't all competing for the same role in the army.
Apart from the exciting new models, what are people hoping for from the book? Personally hoping for a few more playable warlord traits and relics and maybe a stratagem to make Infiltrators and Ruststalkers a bit better.
Some WT and Relics that actually support the army might be nice I'm sure there will be some strategms but until we get some units with some tactical flexibility nothing is really going to beat the ones we use already for pure reliable multipliers.
What we really need imo:
Mobility + battlefield coverage
Some ways of actually messing up our opponent's plans
Some surprises, we're very static in terms of strategy at the moment
Already, even without rules, we can infer that flying and deep-striking units gives us some surprises and coverage improvements. Combat ability we already have a bunch of good shooting options so I'm not really wanting for more of those, unless what those shooting attacks do is something more than just damage. Something to slow enemy units down from the flying troops would be an awesome tactical advantage for us.
It's probably too optimistic but I really just want something to shake things up a bit. Our army is flat on the battlefield at the moment, we can kill anything with guns and point priests at just about anything in combat to kill it. We need ways of preventing stuff getting to us, or lessening the impact when they do; Ways of giving us greater coverage, for the most part I never make it out of my own half of any map lol; And ways for our HQ units to better support our army, because right now they might as well be a banner or an instrument that can repair stuff.
Something for enginseers and datasmiths to do.
Something that's a unique thing for our army that isn't repairing, the way repairing works at the moment isn't a good force multiplier in today's meta and it's not something that's unique to us. There's so much damage being flung around 1-3 extra wounds here and there makes little difference. If they removed the once per model restriction so several tech priest could essentially bring a vehicle back from the brink then that's a better ability.
At the moment the only time repairing becomes a significant asset/threat is if we take necromechanic and spend a cp to repair twice. That's too much setup to make an ability all our HQs have significant though and that's only if your opponent doesn't focus fire everything down to nothing. If my 12w tank gets knocked down to 2-3 wounds in a single turn and I have an HQ that then heals it for 4-8 wounds, that's somewhat useful. But eventually you run out of cp and it becomes 2-4 which is less useful.
Essentially when I see my opponents characters and HQ choices the majority of them have abilities that make me want to get rid of them other than them being a warlord point or mission objective. Pyskers need to go, anything issuing orders has to go, melee experts have to go. Nobody cares about a dominus, manipulus or enginseer, from a battlefield perspective they're almost dead weight. Dominus are amazing at shooting but have crap short range weapons. They have good melee weapons but low attacks and combat abilities. They're not mega durable and do almost nothing for the army.
So if I had to pick one or two things it would be better HQ force multipliers and ways for us to ruin our opponents plans.
Agree, especially on how lame Ad Mech HQs are. They are definitely the weak link in the army. They feel like a leftover from the sort of thing you used to have in 40k 4 or 5 editions ago, back when you still had lots of characters that were just their stat-line and not much else.
That said, I think the trouble with the army is that although it's really lopsided right now...the units that are good are *really, really good*. To the point that I worry that they're going to struggle to find ways to make the army more interesting that doesn't take those already very good units and push them over the edge into problematic territory. Things like electro-priests for example would probably be seriously overpowered in just about any other army. They are overtuned in terms of basic stats and abilities precisely because the army is so lacking in ways to get more out of them. If you suddenly let Ad Mech have the sorts of tricks lots of other armies get...those priests become god-tier.
It's a tough balance to hit and I'm not sure I trust GW's ability to get it right.
I cannot stress enough that this is the issue with us having been designed as two separate armies and then mashed together and with a lot of the goodies from the books being stripped out.
My biggest hope for Engine War is extremely unlikely, in that I'd love a way to field a Skitarii HQ. Hopefully that will be the next Codex, with a Skitarii 'Command Squad' option as an Elite choice.
Kanluwen wrote: I cannot stress enough that this is the issue with us having been designed as two separate armies and then mashed together and with a lot of the goodies from the books being stripped out.
My biggest hope for Engine War is extremely unlikely, in that I'd love a way to field a Skitarii HQ. Hopefully that will be the next Codex, with a Skitarii 'Command Squad' option as an Elite choice.
Giving us a Skitarii HQ doesn't improve much though. The biggest gains we could see are actually to the cult mechanics side, they are all so underwhelming we throw all sorts of other units and strategms at them to make them useful. Sure our Skitarii forces don't have anyone to lead them, but what do our Skitarii forces even need? All the Skitarii units are great without even any leaders supporting them. The units that need help are the BS/WS4+ cult mech units with mismatched stats and rules. The thing I don't get with the cult mech units is sure they're below average BS and WS but what are they getting for that? WHere's the upside to this equation? If it were offset accordingly the BS/WS4 and the other downsides would be more palatable.
The Cult Mechanicus side is so underwhelming because they were designed with a wildly different thought process. They were intended to be fielded with the three layered Canticles system that rewarded them for fielding the same list(War Convocation) and abusing Skitarii units to get the perk.
What Skitarii need is their design space back. Canticles need to get reworked to be effective for Cult units, but Doctrina Imperatives need to come back(and that's where a Skitarii HQ comes in) as a standard rule not a garbage Stratagem for one unit.
The saddest part is that those kinds of abilities would be perfect to reintroduce as a reason to have an Alpha/Princeps in a squad and move Skitarii to a system where the leader is an upgrade rather than mandatory.
I agree, I would really like to see a new HQ choice, if not multiple. I do think it's unlikely we'll get a new HQ model with engine war unless they release one that is only available in a boxed set a la Saga of the Beast, but I never understood why we couldn't just get the Custodes treatment — just make rules for an HQ that can be built out of the same box as the Skitarii infantry or something with a head swap and appropriate wargear or the like. They could even just release an upgrade sprue like they did for various chapters' primaris. It wouldn't be ideal but it would be a relatively efficient way to do it.
Also as a side note, I agree that the Dominus' repair ability is no where near as good as GW originally thought it might be, so they're still overcosted at the moment. They're not unusable but they should really be 10-20pts cheaper.
That's why I would like to have us gotten a 'Command Squad' or something of that nature for the Skitarii. We have minimum squad sizes of 5 for our infantry(except for the Secutarii from Forge World, who are minimum of 10) and get 10 per Skitarii and 5 per Sicarian box. Squad could have been four Skitarii, one getting an option to take the Omnispex and another with an option for the Data-Tether and the squad being able to provide their benefits to nearby units rather than 'their' unit.
I've also thrown around ideas in the past of specialized weapon squads. Can't speak for anyone else, but I'm sitting on a bag of Arc Rifles, Arquebi, and Calivers from all my stuff. Being able to have specialized Techxorcism Squads wielding Arc Rifles or Plasma Caliver outfitted squads in units of 4 with no other options in the squad but as Heavy Supports or Elites would be interesting.
The repair is a bad mechanic because it's one of those things that's very hard to balance between casual and competitive play in a game without alternative activations and where damage is so high. In competitive 40k models with less than 16ish wounds tend to either exist as full health or dead, with very little in-between. Repair isn't effective in those circumstances unless it pretty much restores the model to complete health...but if you do that, it messes up casual games by creating impossible to kill models.
It would have made a lot more sense to make repair take effect more like a FNP - for example, once per battle round, any model that can repair can make immediate repairs and restore 1 wound (or 1d3 for the better repairers) to an eligible model. That way it doesn't have to be overtuned to be useful because you'll always get a chance to use it.
...I've also thrown around ideas in the past of specialized weapon squads. Can't speak for anyone else, but I'm sitting on a bag of Arc Rifles, Arquebi, and Calivers from all my stuff. Being able to have specialized Techxorcism Squads wielding Arc Rifles or Plasma Caliver outfitted squads in units of 4 with no other options in the squad but as Heavy Supports or Elites would be interesting.
^This. I totally agree, I've always wished we had a special weapons squad type thing. I just find a single arc rifle or two thrown in here and there to be really low impact, but if we could take a squad of 5 with 4 arc rifles for 43pts as an elites choice or something that would make them interesting.
I also think it would make our army more interesting if there was more reason to take our unit upgrades. Like maybe there could be a stratagem that allows a model with an omnispex to give that ability in a bubble to friendly skitarii so long as it didn't shoot that turn or something.
The point on repair being overvalued is right. We don't have a heavy tank like other factions. We have Knights, but even then, it's not worthwhile to spec for repair anymore, since a lot of armies can T1 kill a Knight.
Suzuteo wrote: The point on repair being overvalued is right. We don't have a heavy tank like other factions. We have Knights, but even then, it's not worthwhile to spec for repair anymore, since a lot of armies can T1 kill a Knight.
I agree, and it's a bit of an all your eggs in one basket situation to hope that they can't — even if it can be very powerful in some casual games.
On a bit of a tangent from there, speaking of knights, what does everyone think about running armigers? I know they aren't the most reliable but I like how fast they are. I was thinking of giving a list with three of them a try when I get the chance. The idea was to run house Taranis so they're harder to kill and can stand back up again and get repaired potentially.
I only have 2 armigers so I haven't been able to get house rules or anything, but I've tried them out (they're magnetized so I've used both Helverins and Warglaives). The Warglaives performed the best when I ran them with a pack of Sydonian Dragoons and just completely saturate a flank, lol. Their melta really helped weaken/scare any of the big stuff the Dragoons would have difficulty with one shotting and their 14" movement with a 5++ helped get them where they wanted (usually). The Dragoons exploding attacks could also help unlock the Armigers if they got swamped with infantry. They actually were nice to have, just a shame they require a big boi knight in order to make the most of them. I feel they complimented the Dragoons quite well.
The Helverins weren't that fun because they just act like turrets and I already have plenty of that and S7 AP-1 is already saturated, despite their flat 3 damage being nice, that AP-1 is just weaksauce.
Everytime I looked at Armigers their cost (points) put me off including them. Helverins job is covered by Autocannon balistarii for the most part. Warglaives are covered by dragoons and any decent gun on the numerous models with have.
Its their mobility that you'd take them for, problem being we have nothing that can keep up with them lol
True, I doubt anything is on schedule release-wise now, but it would be nice if they gave us some more insights into the new units in the meantime.
Also that makes sense, so I guess running three armigers is about as janky as I suspected then lol. Not expecting miracles but I still have three painted up and ready to hit the table when things settle down, they do seem fun at least.
TheArchmagos wrote: True, I doubt anything is on schedule release-wise now, but it would be nice if they gave us some more insights into the new units in the meantime.
Also that makes sense, so I guess running three armigers is about as janky as I suspected then lol. Not expecting miracles but I still have three painted up and ready to hit the table when things settle down, they do seem fun at least.
To draw on the Facebook admins again, we don't normally see rules previews until a pre-order date is set. So in normal circumstances, if they announced pre-order this weekend for the following weekend. We'd start seeing rules previews on Monday/Tuesday and then the actual release would have been 24th/25th of April. But we've currently seen NOTHING for the other 3 factions that are part of that release other than the obligatory short stories. Daemons are the only faction that have seen nothing at all, both knight factions were in the last short story and admech was clearly the other two.
It would be nice if they released the digital version of the psychic awakening on schedule. I just want something I can use to plan out the rest of my list with.
TheArchmagos wrote: True, I doubt anything is on schedule release-wise now, but it would be nice if they gave us some more insights into the new units in the meantime.
Also that makes sense, so I guess running three armigers is about as janky as I suspected then lol. Not expecting miracles but I still have three painted up and ready to hit the table when things settle down, they do seem fun at least.
To draw on the Facebook admins again, we don't normally see rules previews until a pre-order date is set. So in normal circumstances, if they announced pre-order this weekend for the following weekend. We'd start seeing rules previews on Monday/Tuesday and then the actual release would have been 24th/25th of April. But we've currently seen NOTHING for the other 3 factions that are part of that release other than the obligatory short stories. Daemons are the only faction that have seen nothing at all, both knight factions were in the last short story and admech was clearly the other two.
UK Lockdown is almost certainly going to be til the end of May. I don't think we'll see a physical release of anything til mid June.
Fingers crossed they do a ebook release, but I don't think we'll see that if the UK Gov keeps doing the "we'll check again in 14 days" strategy rather than just saying - "It's almost certainly going to be another month."
Suzuteo wrote: The point on repair being overvalued is right. We don't have a heavy tank like other factions. We have Knights, but even then, it's not worthwhile to spec for repair anymore, since a lot of armies can T1 kill a Knight.
I agree, and it's a bit of an all your eggs in one basket situation to hope that they can't — even if it can be very powerful in some casual games.
On a bit of a tangent from there, speaking of knights, what does everyone think about running armigers? I know they aren't the most reliable but I like how fast they are. I was thinking of giving a list with three of them a try when I get the chance. The idea was to run house Taranis so they're harder to kill and can stand back up again and get repaired potentially.
I feel like I've said it a few times but I enjoy them. I run Raven for fluff reasons but I really like them for warglaives. Never tried helverins but they seem solid.
Warglaives are really great at distraction carnifex roles, taking out softer fire support units on the back row, bullying weak objectives holding units, sneaking along a flank and causing trouble, and occasionally suckerpunching a tank between the melta and melee. They're extremely mobile and can be pretty flexible for the cost. They combo very well with dragoons. Honestly the only two issues I have with them is the stupid rule where they can't provide CP unless a big knight shows up, and that they can only be repaired one wound at a time by techpriests. Other than that and dopey looking heavy stubbed they're very solid. As a Metallica player, they do an excellent job keeping up with my vanguard, kastelans, dragoons, and hover tanks. Makes for an insanely aggressive admech army, at least compared to what you normally see for admech.
They're definitely worth it in an even remotely casual meta. They can hold their own decently in most matchups, they just don't like ITC, so of course for most super competitive play they're bad about giving up points. Kind of like IG, a really solid thing for chapter approved or other style missions, but just can't cut it in the ITC format.
I'm glad to hear Armigers can hold their own in casual games! I painted up three of them just because I like the models and I'm excited to test them out in game once this pandemic is more under control!
I also enjoy a bit of ITC and I might stubbornly try to make them work there too depending on how my games go. Do you think they don't cut it in ITC because they give up too many secondaries? I was thinking they could at least be useful in that format due to their mobility and because they're easier to hide behind terrain in ITC. Although I can't exactly see them doing well against Imperial Fists or something of that power level.
So Peltasts seem to have a generally bad rap online, but I keep coming back to them and thinking "they seem alright". They're not going to set the world on fire, but then they're only 80pts a unit (85 with a data tether) - same price as Vanguard with no special weapons, so you need to set your expectations accordingly.
It's a shame that they can't be Stygies, as then those 30" S4 Ap-2 shots would be the main draw. But most vanguard aren't going to be operating at ranges where the Stygies buff comes into it and trading -1T in close combat and the D2 on a 6 for an extra shot at 12" and an extra 2 at 18-24" seems a reasonable trade off. Especially when you've go the no-LOS option and the long ranged AP-2 version to fall back on.
They can still ride transports (including Stygies ones for the pregame move), benefit from canticles and the Doctrina stratagems. I'm not sure I've seen that many lists with a Dominus supporting Vanguard either, so whilst that's something they can't do (again, shame about that 30" profile) it doesn't seem much of a loss.
No objective secured, but they are a unit that can do what both rangers and vanguard are able to do, deal with light infantry up close (even out of LOS for the Peltasts) and also sit back on an objective and still contribute (either out of LOS but still putting out an 18" threat aura, or just shooting into the midfield with 30" guns).
Is it just that they come in 10s, and if they came in 5s we'd seem them all over the place? The fact they're elite (though a cheap one for brigades using Kataphrons as troops)? Or are they just an £-expensive unit that's a bit too much of a jack of all trades and in the middle of the pack - when everyone is building tournament lists out of the better units? I.e. they're alright and not bad, but that's not enough? No unique selling point or am I missing some glaring flaw?
Tastyfish wrote: So Peltasts seem to have a generally bad rap online, but I keep coming back to them and thinking "they seem alright". They're not going to set the world on fire, but then they're only 80pts a unit (85 with a data tether) - same price as Vanguard with no special weapons, so you need to set your expectations accordingly.
It's a shame that they can't be Stygies, as then those 30" S4 Ap-2 shots would be the main draw. But most vanguard aren't going to be operating at ranges where the Stygies buff comes into it and trading -1T in close combat and the D2 on a 6 for an extra shot at 12" and an extra 2 at 18-24" seems a reasonable trade off. Especially when you've go the no-LOS option and the long ranged AP-2 version to fall back on.
They can still ride transports (including Stygies ones for the pregame move), benefit from canticles and the Doctrina stratagems. I'm not sure I've seen that many lists with a Dominus supporting Vanguard either, so whilst that's something they can't do (again, shame about that 30" profile) it doesn't seem much of a loss.
No objective secured, but they are a unit that can do what both rangers and vanguard are able to do, deal with light infantry up close (even out of LOS for the Peltasts) and also sit back on an objective and still contribute (either out of LOS but still putting out an 18" threat aura, or just shooting into the midfield with 30" guns).
Is it just that they come in 10s, and if they came in 5s we'd seem them all over the place? The fact they're elite (though a cheap one for brigades using Kataphrons as troops)? Or are they just an £-expensive unit that's a bit too much of a jack of all trades and in the middle of the pack - when everyone is building tournament lists out of the better units? I.e. they're alright and not bad, but that's not enough? No unique selling point or am I missing some glaring flaw?
I agree, if they just made them able to benefit from forge worlds and minimum unit size five they would be an amazing way to fill our brigades and I think you would see three units of 5 or two of 5 and one of 10 all over the place.
Even still though you do bring up some good points. They're not amazing at anything but they're pretty cheap for 10 models. Maybe a unit of 10 with the data tether for +2 to hit with doctrina strats could be good against eldar fliers and primaris spam? I feel like you're right though, we would see more of them if they cost less monetarily. At the moment they're probably just a bit pricey for a unit people feel lukewarm about.
I think the issue with Armigers is that the Knight codex doesn't do a whole lot to make them viable on their own.
I would guess the next Engine War previews are going to start the last week of April.
I am personally most excited for the flying transport. Duneriders and Drills are great, but diversifying into a flying transport can be very useful on maps with dense ruins. Alternatively, if the gunship turns out to be underpriced, I may just spring for that as well. Either way, this thing will probably complete our transformation into Imperial Dark Eldar.
That being said, the flying Sicarians with the flamers show promise too; we know that flying and flamers are both very potent rules in 8E. If they throw in some sort of Fire and Fade stratagem, that would be very nice indeed.
The reason peltasts don't get much play is the one you yourself brought up: they can only be taken in minimum sizes of 10, and, more importantly, they don't do anything that troops can't do. Being a troop choice grants you CP and gives you ob-sec, both fantastic bonuses. Being elite gets you nothing.
The only reason to take an elites choice is if it can do something a troops choice can't. They don't, ergo, they don't get used.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I really want the cavalry to be good, though I'm almost positive it won't be, because they're almost uniformly terrible in 8th edition. They lose all the bonuses of being infantry and usually get nothing to compensate for those losses.
TheArchmagos wrote: I'm glad to hear Armigers can hold their own in casual games! I painted up three of them just because I like the models and I'm excited to test them out in game once this pandemic is more under control!
I also enjoy a bit of ITC and I might stubbornly try to make them work there too depending on how my games go. Do you think they don't cut it in ITC because they give up too many secondaries? I was thinking they could at least be useful in that format due to their mobility and because they're easier to hide behind terrain in ITC. Although I can't exactly see them doing well against Imperial Fists or something of that power level.
You'll see what I mean. If you're playing any serious ITC stuff their weaknessess start to show up very quickly. The other big issue is "magic box" buildings hiding stuff so they can't melee it, stuff on the second floor of ruins that you cant melee, and like suzetuo said, there's no real buffs for them. Almost every strat, relic, and ability they get requires a big knight to help with aside from a couple.
About the only neat trick is to make one a freeblade or a character so they get at least some bonuses. Problem is freeblade armiger's are much more likely to roll their bad traits with their worse leadership.
Hop on a box and suddenly a 30 foot tall robot can't stomp or punch you any more. Even though he can walk right over you if you aren't on the box to go stomp or punch somebody else.
Just like how a S2 T2 grot can kool-aid man through a stone wall but ghaz gets to waddle around the long way.
Yeah that makes sense, I hope they'll add some fluffy stratagems or synergy for Admech working with Knights since that is a fluffy kind of soup. Still though, you're right that I'll likely have to drop the armigers if I want to do OK in ITC.
Also yeah, as much as I've been enjoying (most) aspects of 8th edition, I do think they need to redo the terrain rules. At present they feel like an afterthought. I have to play my terrain with ITC rules so that games aren't just "I shoot all my guns, now you shoot all your guns."
But to get back on to speculating about Engine War, now that we've seen more images of the models what do people think the transport capacity is on that flier? I originally assumed it would be 5 but after seeing more images I'm starting to think it could be 10 — which would be strange as a design to choice to make it compete so directly with the dunerider though.
Interesting, if the gunship has decent weapons/pts cost and can transport 6 models that could actually prove compelling. It could certainly make running a single inquisitor more interesting if they can hop in for the ride with a minimum squad of rangers or vanguard
Kanluwen wrote: Lil' birdy that gave me the numbers said Skitarii or Secutarii only.
Interesting, so that would override the "Authority of the Inquisition" rule the same way that the "scouts only" rule for the landspeeder storm does? A bit disappointing if that's the case but still cool that it can transport infantry at all.
It totally depends on the precise wording. For example, drop pods say "10 chapter infantry" then have a list of infantry that CAN'T go in it (terminators, primaris, jump pack, centurion etc). So inquisitor units can use them because the wording is generally permissive with exceptions.
On the other hand, the land speeder says "chapter scouts only," and so the authority of the inquisition rule only knocks out "chapter," leaving "scouts," so you're out of luck.
So if it says: "12 <forge world> infantry models. Kataphrons cannot board" you can still use it for inquisitor units, but if it says "12 <forge world> secutarii or skitarii" they can't.
Every other mechanicus transport is worded permissively with exceptions rather than specifically, so I don't know why these would be any different. I expect you can put your inquisitor in one if you really want...though honestly I can't see a lot of circumstances where you would want to.
If the gunship can transport 6 and the flyer 12, that is crazy good. I might do two flyers with 12x Fulgurites in them. Or 6x Skitarii units with 2x Plasma Caliver.
Somewhere in an empty warehouse in Nottingham is the answer to all our questions.
A deft speedy cat burglar with an eye on the clock could just sneak in and reveal all the goodness whilst maintaining correct social distancing procedures.
And adhering to the hour of exercise cap. If such a Robin Hood exists go forth and reveal the goodness!
Honestly, the most frustrating bit for me is this:
We’ll be taking a closer look at these new units and their rules soon – make sure that you’re signed up to our newsletter so that you don’t miss out on any of the latest updates. In the meantime, join us over on the Warhammer 40,000 Facebook page to let us know which unit you’re looking forward to most.
That was on March 30th. It's at the bottom of the Engine War: Requisition Approved article. It seems likely that nobody noticed it was there as the articles are automated to a certain extent.
For whatever reason though, they cut the articles for the week that would have been associated with the preorder.
I know PA will change things but who knows when we will get that for sure. So I was wondering if anyone has had any success with punch robots? I’ve tried 4 dakkabots before and I wasn’t happy with them so I thought about maybe trying them as the combat variant. I run my admech as allies to my knights usually
Drdotts wrote: I know PA will change things but who knows when we will get that for sure. So I was wondering if anyone has had any success withpunch robots? I’ve tried 4 dakkabots before and I wasn’t happy with them so I thought about maybe trying them as the combat variant. I run my admech as allies to my knights usually
They’re not great but they do have a nice charge-from-deepstrike gimmick as Lucius. Run in a Cybernetics Cohort detachment with a Datasmith with the detachment relic for +3 to charge range and put them in the teleportarium. Use Binharic Override to change them to fighting twice protocols. Not competitive or reliable but they killed a Lord of Skulls in one round for me like this. Very amusing!
Punchbots are substantially overcosted, and they'd be especially terrible in a knights list since a lack of hard-hitting close combat is not really one of your problems.
The fist version should give two additional attacks base, one for each fist. That'd make them very good at smashing hard targets with the protocols, with 10 STR 10 3 damage attacks each.
The other option would be giving them a sweep option base on the fists (say 3 hit rolls per attack at STR +1 -2AP 1 damage). Then they'd be reasonably good at hitting a range of targets. I think this is probably the better option.
They still probably wouldn't be great, but at least they wouldn't be meme-worthy.
Both versions are pretty overcosted if you ask me. My 4 will stay on the shelf until there's a reason to use them. Punch bots have too few attacks for their WS4 and no way of improving it, dakkabots you need to dedicate too much additional support to and babysitting to them to keep them useful.
A Distintigrator is the same cost as a robot. Aside from the missing invuln the tank offers magnitudes more firepower and utility than one robot.
Ruststalkers meanwhile are point for point our best screen at 5.5 points per wound they have a bunch of chaff clearing attacks and if you;'re lucky you'll convert some to mortals. 20 wounds for 110pts that moves 8" with an invuln.
Robots need more weapon options, but the way the kit is built that's never going to happen because the guns are built into the arms. The fist weapons should be included for free whether you take the guns or not.
The punch bots also need to be faster. Maybe if the double fight protocol also let them charge after advancing they would have a better chance of even getting into combat. As they are, it costs a lot of CP to get 1 unit into combat quickly or they have to walk it for several turns.
I wish the shooty version had better anti tank options. We already have decent anti infantry options and the 1 damage of heavy phosphorus is just so lackluster. If I could give them 3 heavy arc rifles, I would be all over them.
I actually like the idea of letting them take both guns and fists. That would give them a niche in the list, as it'd make them reasonably good both in melee and at shooting, something nothing else really replicates. And would give you more reason to care about shifting protocols.
yukishiro1 wrote: I actually like the idea of letting them take both guns and fists. That would give them a niche in the list, as it'd make them reasonably good both in melee and at shooting, something nothing else really replicates. And would give you more reason to care about shifting protocols.
All marine dreadnaughts get at least a dreadnaught combat weapon which is the same ap -3 and 3 dmg but x2 str as well as a storm bolter built-in standard.
A venerable dreadnaught for 129pts has an assault cannon, and aforementioned combat weapon and storm bolter, which it can fire at rapidfire at full range whilst moving and also gets the marine shock assault and angels of death benefits. it's 8 wounds and t7 hits on 2+ in combat and at range and has a 3+ save and a 6+++. For 8pts more you can take a twin lascannon instead of the assault cannon. Did I mention they hit on 2+? Oh and they get one more close combat attack. That hit's on 2s.
Kastellans in both forms are laughable compared to the competition, the only saving grace they have is that if you take them in a large enough group wrath of mars becomes useful for them. But our whole strategy for doing anything meaningful is "Take X unit in a massive squad size and use X strategm on them" to make them worthwhile taking. Without the strategms most of these units are average at best. Except priests, they're the other end of the spectrum, way too cheap and way too good lol. Robots need to have the fists built-in and the downsides to the shooting and fighting protocols removed. That makes up for the abysmal BS/WS they have and the lack of firepower.
Or maybe add the rules they removed from phosphor weapons back on, gives them some utility back other than being 'just another gun' we have lots of guns we need some variety and depth in our choices. Or some actual choices lol
yukishiro1 wrote: I actually like the idea of letting them take both guns and fists. That would give them a niche in the list, as it'd make them reasonably good both in melee and at shooting, something nothing else really replicates. And would give you more reason to care about shifting protocols.
All marine dreadnaughts get at least a dreadnaught combat weapon which is the same ap -3 and 3 dmg but x2 str as well as a storm bolter built-in standard.
A venerable dreadnaught for 129pts has an assault cannon, and aforementioned combat weapon and storm bolter, which it can fire at rapidfire at full range whilst moving and also gets the marine shock assault and angels of death benefits. it's 8 wounds and t7 hits on 2+ in combat and at range and has a 3+ save and a 6+++. For 8pts more you can take a twin lascannon instead of the assault cannon. Did I mention they hit on 2+? Oh and they get one more close combat attack. That hit's on 2s.
Kastellans in both forms are laughable compared to the competition, the only saving grace they have is that if you take them in a large enough group wrath of mars becomes useful for them. But our whole strategy for doing anything meaningful is "Take X unit in a massive squad size and use X strategm on them" to make them worthwhile taking. Without the strategms most of these units are average at best. Except priests, they're the other end of the spectrum, way too cheap and way too good lol. Robots need to have the fists built-in and the downsides to the shooting and fighting protocols removed. That makes up for the abysmal BS/WS they have and the lack of firepower.
Or maybe add the rules they removed from phosphor weapons back on, gives them some utility back other than being 'just another gun' we have lots of guns we need some variety and depth in our choices. Or some actual choices lol
The better comparison, since Kastellans have to be taken in minimum unit sizes of 2, is the regular dreadnought. They both come out to 220/200pts (shooty vs punchy, respectively) and 208pts for two dreadnoughts with assault cannons, CCW, and a storm bolter.
Bots do have protocols which makes it a bit tough to compare them to other things, the 5++ vs shooting, though the protocol swap without the Stratagem is quite garbage, requiring not only a dedicated character but ALSO a freaking dice roll. Just lol.
The robots have an 8" move vs the 6" of the dreadnoughts. But the robots have to stay in cohesion while the dreadnoughts can do their own thing.
Robots have a total of 6 attacks base while the dreadnoughts have 8 attacks base, ignoring Shock Assault. Punchy bots are at S10 while dreadnoughts are S12.
WS and BS for bots are 4+ while dreads are 3+ and both suffer move and shoot penalties for heavy weapons, except for the Dreads on T1.
The last real difference is in wounds where the bots have a total of 12 and 2 dreadnoughts add up to 16.
It is a shame the bots are shoehorned into being stationary turrets or they're a handicap to take. They're not very fun since they are so one dimensional. But if they were to get buffed it would have to be very well done or, in my opinion, become crazy good.
Honestly, I love the idea of changing up their weapon loadouts. If I could give them weapons that were still good WITHOUT the handicap of having to remain stationary or being forced to put them into double fire mode, I'd consider them. Arc, Heavy Arc Rifles, Torsion Cannons, etc, could all be fun. Arc Rifles in their hands + fists and then a heavy weapon on the carapace mount would be really fun, I think! At least to allow us to change something up from one game to the next.
EDIT: Now the more I'm thinking about it, if they had small arms weapons in their palms AND the fists and a heavy weapon on their shoulder, I'd probably be happy with them as a tough unit to kind of babysit our backline as opposed to the unit that requires the most babysitting. Think of the versatility.
Honestly, the protocols are just a bad mechanic that make them really difficult to balance. I am sympathetic to the idea that it's something fun and different...but it doesn't lend itself to a well-balanced game. Especially with the protocols as strong as they are. If they only gave you say +1 to hit from shooting or in CC or something like that it'd be one thing, but doubling shots/attacks is a very difficult mechanic to balance.
If they did not require stratagems in order to move and fire without penalty, I'd be ok with protocols adding +1BS and +1WS. But they would definitely NOT be worth their points if they could only move and fire 9 S6 AP-2 1D shots at BS3+. That would be a joke for 110pts. The same with the punchy bois, 100pts for 3 attacks at S10 AP-3 3Dmg that hit on a 3+? I guess they are just stuck in this binary path where they are all or nothing. They'd need a complete redesign.
Well sure, that's the whole point. If you made the the protocols less overwhelmingly powerful, then you could rejig the bots' stats to actually be something other than totally terrible unless you have the right protocol active.
The problem with abilities that double effectiveness is there is no way to make the unit anything but horrible when they aren't active and keep it balanced. You end up balancing for the right protocol being active at all times, which defeats the whole purpose of the mechanic, except to add dependency to the unit for no real gain.
What I was saying is that if you toned down the protocols you could then totally redesign their statline to be an effective unit without being 100% reliant on the right protocol being active. You could drop the points, you could improve the stats/weapons/etc, or you could do both. Right now the unit is crippled by the fact it has protocols that make it double as effective. So it has to be terrible without the protocols, because otherwise it'll be too powerful with them engaged. Tone down the protocols and you can afford to buff up the base stats significantly and end up with a unit that's actually usable and not a dumb gimmick in a box.
Dakkabots are ridiculously strong still. It's just that Space Marines are even more OP now, so we have to spam Boats to make every round in a game of objective secured whack-a-mole. =\
Dakkabots are only strong when you spend most of your armies points supporting them, take them in the right Forgweworld and use a strategy on them. Without all those stars aligning they're extremely average. It's very restrictive and shallow. At the moment without the support and cp they're considerably worse choices than our other heavy slots.
What i'd like to see from them:
Protocols:
BS+1 + double shots if remained stationary or moved less than half movement for shoot mode -1WS
WS+1 and +1A for punchy mode -1BS
+1 save for aegis as now
No other negatives
Option to take one fist for free and a ranged weapon or two ranged weapons and no fist or two fists for +1 attack for a points cost.
I'd love more ranged weapon options but the logistics of this are problematic without a new miniature :|
Protocol changing should just be an ability the data smith has and it changes immediately, none of this next turn bullcrap. I was considering starting a Grey Knights army and their tides mechanic works like the robots except it's instant, you cast your power and the tide changes instantly. So you can fire off all your 2MW smites then switch to another tide so the rest of your army can benefit from other tides for the remainder of the turn. The downsides are that whatever protocol you leave them in is active for your opponents turn so you have to balance the importance of whatever tide you have up and when.
The current strategm to change protocol should remain, but should only be possible with a datasmith within range and not lock them into one of them. That way if you have the CP you can have your datasmith switch to shooty end of movement, shoot and pay your CP to switch to fight for fight phases. That's called tactical flexibility
Oh and the Dunecrawler needs the whole move half distance fire twice thing to make its lacking weapon loadouts more valuable.
All this is stuff that exists elsewhere, nothing radical. I just solve 3 units problems right there
fortunately for me dakkabots are fairly powerful because nobody here is tournament level good, their presence alone does work lol.
Yeah i know kind of a moot point but its still funny to me that my opponents are so terrified of them when they usually dont do all that much vs their cost. I try to get Dr.D to +1 their BS but the 24" range usually means only chaff is in range, or something i dont want them shooting (Magnus for one)
Dakkabots are great in casual games on boards without much LOS-blocking stuff or against players who don't really put enough attention into the movement phase. Other than that, I think they're probably on the edge of being viable run as Mars with full rerolls from Cawl and the strat.
Dakkabots were strong even in tournaments as long as there aren't NOVA L's. But the addition of Skorpius and the new SM supplements making it easy to paste T6 vehicles signal that we have to evolve.
So with GW saying they might be taking online orders soon I was wondering if people had some advice on what to get next. I'm shooting for a 2000pt list that I can eventually bring to tournaments and have a fighting chance.
Troops -29x rangers: 11 stock, 6 with arquebus, 3 with arc rifle ( I run 3 min squads with 2 arquebus each in most lists and have the parts to model a 4th squad)
-20x vanguard: 16 stock, 4 with plasma caliver
-3x kataphron destroyers
Fast Attack -2x Dragoons w/ taser lances
-1x Ironstrider w/lascannon (I still have the parts to switch this to a dragoon if need be)
Heavy Support -3x Dunecrawler: 2 neutron laser, 1 icarus array
Possible Allies -3x Armiger Warglaives
-1x Vindicare Assassin
-1x Inquisitor
I have everything above fully painted and based because of this quarantine, so now I can finally justify more purchases for my army... as soon as GW starts shipping to Canada again
*I should also note that I painted them up purple to use them as my own forgeworld, so Cawl is off the table.
Nothing until the Engine War units come out. But for you specifically some Skorpius will be useful regardless of what else comes out. Even if the flying transport is awesome it's unlikely to be cheap so having a rhino-pointed cheap transport or an ignoring LoS battle tank to support your troops will be a good idea in anyone book.
Also suggest you look at magnetizing your ironstriders/dragoons. 1 balistarii or 2 dragoons on their own are less useful, they work much better in packs of 3-4+
Octovol wrote: Nothing until the Engine War units come out. But for you specifically some Skorpius will be useful regardless of what else comes out. Even if the flying transport is awesome it's unlikely to be cheap so having a rhino-pointed cheap transport or an ignoring LoS battle tank to support your troops will be a good idea in anyone book.
Also suggest you look at magnetizing your ironstriders/dragoons. 1 balistarii or 2 dragoons on their own are less useful, they work much better in packs of 3-4+
Idk about the flyer. Doesnt the transportvariant have to be insanely cheap, because ... once again it only has like 4 stubbers
Octovol wrote: Nothing until the Engine War units come out. But for you specifically some Skorpius will be useful regardless of what else comes out. Even if the flying transport is awesome it's unlikely to be cheap so having a rhino-pointed cheap transport or an ignoring LoS battle tank to support your troops will be a good idea in anyone book.
Also suggest you look at magnetizing your ironstriders/dragoons. 1 balistarii or 2 dragoons on their own are less useful, they work much better in packs of 3-4+
Idk about the flyer. Doesnt the transportvariant have to be insanely cheap, because ... once again it only has like 4 stubbers
Depends what wargear options it has. At the moment the current rumour mill has it as 10-12 capacity transport, it's probably still on T6 and no Invuln but if it can deepstrike or flank just the ability to have a full squad of 10 of something + a character is bonus enough alone to edge it over the dunerider. Points cost will obviously be a factor but it cant possibly be more than 100 given it doesn't have half the guns of a disintigrator or the toughness of an onager. I don't think i'd take more than one flyer transport at this point, but we don't really know enough to make an informed decision. I mean if I can have two of them drop in 10 fulgurites each with supporting characters. That's a very dangerous thing indeed.
Octovol wrote: Nothing until the Engine War units come out. But for you specifically some Skorpius will be useful regardless of what else comes out. Even if the flying transport is awesome it's unlikely to be cheap so having a rhino-pointed cheap transport or an ignoring LoS battle tank to support your troops will be a good idea in anyone book.
Also suggest you look at magnetizing your ironstriders/dragoons. 1 balistarii or 2 dragoons on their own are less useful, they work much better in packs of 3-4+
Idk about the flyer. Doesnt the transportvariant have to be insanely cheap, because ... once again it only has like 4 stubbers
Depends what wargear options it has. At the moment the current rumour mill has it as 10-12 capacity transport, it's probably still on T6 and no Invuln but if it can deepstrike or flank just the ability to have a full squad of 10 of something + a character is bonus enough alone to edge it over the dunerider. Points cost will obviously be a factor but it cant possibly be more than 100 given it doesn't have half the guns of a disintigrator or the toughness of an onager. I don't think i'd take more than one flyer transport at this point, but we don't really know enough to make an informed decision. I mean if I can have two of them drop in 10 fulgurites each with supporting characters. That's a very dangerous thing indeed.
Please no T6 and no invuln, I cried too much on the skorpius already
T6 makes sense just because its a flier and not a heavy-armored-looking one either. T7 fliers are rare.
Lack of invul would be dumb, but i see them doing it too.
It's really going to come down to it's points cost. If the points cost is around that of a dunerider, I would be fine without an invul. Trading toughness amd guns for speed and capacity sounds reasonable. But if it's around 100 or more points then it better come with some sweet abilities.
This is assuming it either carries 10 (costs 80-90) or has guns plus carries 5 (costs 80-100 points). I actually think the gunship is going to be more valuable if it allows us to carry 5, even if it is more expensive.
And it better have Flying. I will be so mad if it doesn't.
Meh, the main issue with admech transports isn't that they aren't good - both the boat and the drill are excellent in very different ways - it's that admech lacks anything worth putting in them, except maybe priests. And unless there's a new HQ in there they've been hiding from us, this update will likely do nothing to change that.
Even if it gets valk or impulsor-style rules...without either a realistic way to make charges out of DS (for the valk-style) or a shooty infantry unit worth spending points on (for the impulsor-style), I just don't see a lot of reason they'll get taken.
I'm more interested in the cavalry (sooner or later they have to come out with cavalry that doesn't suck, right??) and the jump units, though obviously it totally depends on how much thought is going into the PA book and how much it is going to change the army. All the new models could point in the way of a huge GK-style PA update that totally changes the faction, or it could mean they are focused on the new models and the rest of the faction gets no real changes at all. I guess we'll find out soon.
Actually, MSUs of Plasma Vanguard are actually really efficient. S8 is a sort of magic number in the meta given its marginal benefits against T4 and T7 targets, and you get two with good hit bonuses for 62 points. They also synergize with the Fulgurites. (They were really bad before when it was all about spamming T3 infantry; naked Rangers were the best choice then.)
I think the cavalry are gonna bust. This edition does not offer enough benefits to cavalry for the keyword to be relevant. And the jump units I am nervous about because Sicarians tend to suck.
The biggest problem with have a from a 'what are we getting' kind of thought process is that there are so many areas that could be drastically improved that it's difficult to figure out exactly what their angle is lol
2 squads of plasma vangaurds popping out of a drill has done some notable damage for me. Especially if i have global reroll 1s going on so i can overcharge them more safely.
Thats really all i ever feel like putting in the thing though.
I still don't get the draw for plasma, without the associated Ryza goodness it's just medium-high str medium ap 1 or 2 damage for a lot of points. I guess it depends on your target but generally it's a low number of shots and a low amount of damage. I guess against primaries it's decent as they barely get a save and overcharged it's a reliable kill but against other targets just feels like a waste of points.
No preview of what the Raiders or Sulphurhounds are wielding for themselves.
That said, we did get a slight rules preview for the Sulphurhounds:
The Sulphurhounds have a special rule that allows you to shoot Pistol weapons even after you’ve Advanced, increasing the threat range of your baleful breath.* This weapon can be used on top of all of the rider’s weapons, and as a Pistol weapon, you can even shoot it in close combat, making it perfect for burning your way through enemy hordes.
Whoa, flamer weapons that actually ignore cover! Fancy! One of those weird things that 8th changed i never understood: flamers dont ignore cover by default. Kind..of the whole reason for flame weapons existing is to anti-bunker attack.
I wonder how expensive those pteraxxi are. That gun is pretty tame unless theyre unusually cheap or capable of JSJ to avoid getting shot back. The flamer weapon they got though is pretty dope.
Presumably ignoring cover because they're phosphor flamers? Sterilyzers seem to be the pick of the two so far, making the assumption of MSU 5, these guys would drop 25 S3 shots on BS3+. I can see Mars finding that attractive as they do any kind of high-volume fire unit but unless that variant is dirt cheap I can't see them filling a role that Infiltrators don't.
Yeah it's kinda weird they made yet another deep-striking unit that can put out tons of volume of terrible quality fire.
That said, if they are dirt cheap...it's a flying screen, and those are a very powerful tool to have, especially in an army that is notoriously vulnerable to being tagged and turned off.
I really don't know what to think about the hounds. On the one hand, flamers you can use in combat or after advancing and that ignore cover seem like they're actually thinking about things and trying to make a cavalry unit that doesn't suck. On the other hand..without an exemption from what actually makes cavalry suck, being built around being able to use flamers in combat is pretty stupid: the whole problem with cavalry is they're totally undone by the features that give something cover, so the two halves of the effect really don't mesh well at all. Nobody's going to be particularly scared of a unit that can theoretically fire flamers in combat if in fact it's stuck 3 inches away unable to charge because of magical GW terrain rules. I mean I guess at least in that circumstance you get to fire the flamers and ignore the cover save...but it'd be much better if you could just charge them instead like infantry can.
Although, if they are not particularly good in combat itself and cheap, I guess it might actually work: even if you can't enter the terrain, you can stand outside burning them out, and they really don't want to charge you because of getting burned again. Though it's a pretty weird profile of infantry (i.e., not very shooty) in cover that you want to be standing in front of shooting and daring them to charge you, rather than charging them. Usually the stuff that's camped out in cover is perfectly happy to stay there shooting at you rather than being in combat.
Madjob wrote: Presumably ignoring cover because they're phosphor flamers? Sterilyzers seem to be the pick of the two so far, making the assumption of MSU 5, these guys would drop 25 S3 shots on BS3+. I can see Mars finding that attractive as they do any kind of high-volume fire unit but unless that variant is dirt cheap I can't see them filling a role that Infiltrators don't.
Well, I might be too optimistic but I do see the point. 12" of Infiltrators has been very bad lately for finding a decent place to drop them and fire the nuke. That's the prime reason for me to stop using Infiltrators in the first place. With 24" and Assault 5? In your face Omniscramblers/Alpha Legion!
i just wish such a weapon was useful for nonmars.
I dont have Cawl and i feel like mars is total crap if you cant use him to manipulate the die to stop getting doubles every round (i swear my dice just know what im rolling for sometimes lol).
The gun won't do much without wrath, but I can see them being pretty effective as a cheap flying screen. Though depending how much more it is for the flamer that doesn't suck, it might be worth shelling out for those instead, especially since their range means that you can always use them on anything charging you.
Actually, the more I think about it, the more excited I am by the flamerdactyls, depending on cost. There is potentially a lot of play on a unit that can always flame, no matter what - out of DS, on overwatch, when falling back, you name it. In games where screening is important they can fulfill that role extremely well; on games where that isn't important, you can put them in DS and drop them on something juicy.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh wow, I just realized something else: the talons says when charging "or performing a heroic intervention." That means there's either a character they've been hiding from us (and a jump pack character to boot!), or a strat to allow them to heroically intervene like a character. Interesting...
MrMoustaffa wrote: Yeah I noticed the heroic intervention stuff too. Maybe we're gonna get a skitarii Alpha after all
More likely than not, we'd get some stratagem where we can give the Character keyword to a Princeps or Alpha before we get a specifically Sicarian Alpha(especially since Sicarians get Princeps ).
I don't think they'd futureproof something so junky. It's not like it would really matter whether you got the 1+str on your S:U -1AP 1 damage combat weapon.
I think more likely is that they get a copy of the salamanders intervene - 2cp, lets you fire overwatch at a different unit being charged, then get a 2d6 heroic intervention that's basically a counter-charge. Seems to mesh well with the idea that the flamers are hard to avoid. The weapon is so anemic that it doesn't really make sense that they would have built around the interaction - the strat is probably more about letting you overwatch with your flamers even if they charge a different unit, and then they just figured they may as well throw in the +1str in that case too.
That or a skitarii alpha that can take a pack as an upgrade, but I think the former is the more likely.
My guess is that the flying Sicarians are not going to replace Infiltrators unless they get some sort of Fire and Fade-type stratagem.
Hounds actually seem okay. Being able to advance and shoot is a nice touch. Good for grabbing objectives. Doubt they will have Objective Secured though. But hey, Outrider with 2x? Hounds and 1x4-6 Dragoons might be clutch in the near future.
Wait, are the flyers sicarians, not skitarii? I guess they are - I hadn't looked closely at the models.
If so, they probably will be more expensive than infiltrators, not less, assuming they share the 2W profile. So they probably won't be nearly so useful as screens, or nearly as efficient at burning things. Lame.
Neither the word "skitarii" nor the word "sicarian" appears in either the most recent preview, or the one from March 30, unless I've overlooked it. The original reveal video was literally titled "Skitarii take to the skies!" but only showed off the 'copter, so presumably is neither here nor there for answering the question.
If they stated they were sicarians somewhere else that's fine, but I'm not sure the hostility was required.
There was no hostility. I'm just not a fan of putting smileys everywhere for no reason.
It was stated early on, most likely via the Facebook page if it's not showing up in the previews(although the Serberys in the March 30th article did get the statement of "Only the finest Skitarii are promoted into the corps of Serberys cavalry. Once there, some of them join the Raiders, long-range scouts who excel in outflanking enemy units."), that they were winged Sicarian. Jes Goodwin and Darren Latham then further emphasized that recently during their Voxcast.
yukishiro1 wrote: Neither the word "skitarii" nor the word "sicarian" appears in either the most recent preview, or the one from March 30, unless I've overlooked it. The original reveal video was literally titled "Skitarii take to the skies!" but only showed off the 'copter, so presumably is neither here nor there for answering the question.
Sure, though presumably what we're all talking about is whether they're a 1W 3S 1A Skitarii profile or a 2W 4S 2+A Sicarian profile, with the cost implications of each.
Assuming they are on the Sicarian profile, that's a lot of points to pay for melee prowess and a second wound on a unit that really seems like you'd rather have be cheaper instead. I think they'd have had a real role in the army at 1W 3S 1A and say 13ish points for the flamer version, but with a Sicarian statline they're likely to be closer to 20ish, at which point the damage output from the guns starts to feel pretty anemic for the points.
I guess we'll know pretty soon, assuming re-opening the factory goes as planned.
Yup. Like I said, unless we get fancy Pteraxii-specific stratagems, we're never going to use them. Infiltrators can already be delivered wherever we need them, and their guns are comparable. (If only they were Rapid Fire...)
yukishiro1 wrote: Sure, though presumably what we're all talking about is whether they're a 1W 3S 1A Skitarii profile or a 2W 4S 2+A Sicarian profile, with the cost implications of each.
Assuming they are on the Sicarian profile, that's a lot of points to pay for melee prowess and a second wound on a unit that really seems like you'd rather have be cheaper instead. I think they'd have had a real role in the army at 1W 3S 1A and say 13ish points for the flamer version, but with a Sicarian statline they're likely to be closer to 20ish, at which point the damage output from the guns starts to feel pretty anemic for the points.
I guess we'll know pretty soon, assuming re-opening the factory goes as planned.
I can see the Skystalkers coming in at 15-16 points, but the Sterilyzors will almost certainly be 20 minimum with not only a flamer weapon (which GW has historically been overcosting in 8e) but an actually decent flamer weapon.
yukishiro1 wrote: Sure, though presumably what we're all talking about is whether they're a 1W 3S 1A Skitarii profile or a 2W 4S 2+A Sicarian profile, with the cost implications of each.
Assuming they are on the Sicarian profile, that's a lot of points to pay for melee prowess and a second wound on a unit that really seems like you'd rather have be cheaper instead. I think they'd have had a real role in the army at 1W 3S 1A and say 13ish points for the flamer version, but with a Sicarian statline they're likely to be closer to 20ish, at which point the damage output from the guns starts to feel pretty anemic for the points.
I guess we'll know pretty soon, assuming re-opening the factory goes as planned.
I can see the Skystalkers coming in at 15-16 points, but the Sterilyzors will almost certainly be 20 minimum with not only a flamer weapon (which GW has historically been overcosting in 8e) but an actually decent flamer weapon.
No chance, infiltrators are 15pts now and Fly and Flamers come with hefty price tags. I'd say 20 for the Skystalkers and more like 25 AT LEAST for a 2w unit with a 12" flamer that can probably also move 12-14", deep strike and has an invuln. Remember when Infiltrators were 24pts each? HA! those were the days lol
Flyer article just posted.
Not much rules-wise, but we can see that the gunship variant has Cognis Lascannons in the rear, Cognis Stubbers on the side doors, and Heavy Phosphor Blasters on the front.
Bomber is implied to have "seismic warheads" on the bombs, so who knows what that will mean.
good grief what is that the 4th article on the planes that basically said nothing? Other than different angles on the pictures that seems like the same crap we already knew.
Kanluwen wrote: Flyer article just posted.
Not much rules-wise, but we can see that the gunship variant has Cognis Lascannons in the rear, Cognis Stubbers on the side doors, and Heavy Phosphor Blasters on the front.
Bomber is implied to have "seismic warheads" on the bombs, so who knows what that will mean.
These are quite possibly the most anemic rules previews I've ever seen. I can only guess they're stretching them out to buy time. This one didn't even have a single stat shown, we don't even know transport capacity.
Cognis lascannons and heavy phosphor is nice for the gunship though. Those are solid weapons
This wasn't a rules preview. Remember that these articles were made to be spread across the week of preorders for Engine War--which means that there should be stuff cropping up on Facebook today or tomorrow that supplement these two articles.
It is kind of interesting that again they show off the top bit without naming it though. Looks like we get a flare/chaff launcher of some kind to get a negative to hit modifier or a data-tether of some kind.
Kanluwen wrote: This wasn't a rules preview. Remember that these articles were made to be spread across the week of preorders for Engine War--which means that there should be stuff cropping up on Facebook today or tomorrow that supplement these two articles.
It is kind of interesting that again they show off the top bit without naming it though. Looks like we get a flare/chaff launcher of some kind to get a negative to hit modifier or a data-tether of some kind.
I was thinking the same thing, the Corvus Blackstar has a similar bit, one gives you a strafing run the other a negative modifier to hit as you mentioned.
Unsurprising for them to be cognis lascannons but it begs the question "how often will it actually be necessary to advance the thing?" since it is a flyer vehicle and if you advance not only are you taking a total -2 to hit penalty, but you are cutting out the heavy phosphor blasters entirely.
Nothing on there looking like a match for a datatether either, it does seem to have some sort of antennae but nothing like what we've seen for a datatether before.
Madjob wrote: Unsurprising for them to be cognis lascannons but it begs the question "how often will it actually be necessary to advance the thing?" since it is a flyer vehicle and if you advance not only are you taking a total -2 to hit penalty, but you are cutting out the heavy phosphor blasters entirely.
Nothing on there looking like a match for a datatether either, it does seem to have some sort of antennae but nothing like what we've seen for a datatether before.
Well the Scorpius has 2 huge antennas that are only normal EDT for some reason
The one interesting thing in there is the thing about the pilot giving "incredible manoeuvrability," which might just be PR fluff or might actually mean something re: an added turn in flyer mode or something...though I'm not sure how much it'd matter since it must have a hover mode too.
Octovol wrote: No chance, infiltrators are 15pts now and Fly and Flamers come with hefty price tags. I'd say 20 for the Skystalkers and more like 25 AT LEAST for a 2w unit with a 12" flamer that can probably also move 12-14", deep strike and has an invuln. Remember when Infiltrators were 24pts each? HA! those were the days lol
Infiltrators are a good point of comparison, since they have +deepstrike and +neurostatic aura over Ruststalkers, which = a 4 point difference (making the assumption that their default wargear are comparable, which I wouldn't in favor of the Infiltrators, meaning even more value packed into that 4 point difference). 15-16 might have been a bit generous even when you trade the powerswords and stubcarbines out for these flechette rifles, but I still can't see them being more than 18 points.
Octovol wrote: No chance, infiltrators are 15pts now and Fly and Flamers come with hefty price tags. I'd say 20 for the Skystalkers and more like 25 AT LEAST for a 2w unit with a 12" flamer that can probably also move 12-14", deep strike and has an invuln. Remember when Infiltrators were 24pts each? HA! those were the days lol
Infiltrators are a good point of comparison, since they have +deepstrike and +neurostatic aura over Ruststalkers, which = a 4 point difference (making the assumption that their default wargear are comparable, which I wouldn't in favor of the Infiltrators, meaning even more value packed into that 4 point difference). 15-16 might have been a bit generous even when you trade the powerswords and stubcarbines out for these flechette rifles, but I still can't see them being more than 18 points.
I will be very surprised if flamer Pterax was below 20 pts, and I'm actually suspecting 10-12 range for the flamer alone. Cognis Flamer is 7pts, being worse than Sterylizors. Incendine Combustor is 15pts, having only +1S advantage but losing on the cover ignoring part. Flame Pteraxi, with DS and Fly, will easily break 25ppm IMO. I also remember seeing some sort of grenades as well, on the Carbine guy at least, so there's another thing to bump the price.
So it seems like the bomber carries nobody for sure; they say that the passenger compartment is replaced by a gun rack. But aside from that... scant details?
I am curious about defensive flamer Pterax - 12" range so guaranteed overwatch and 5D6 is nothing to sniff at.
The move and drop means you can keep them in reserve until the turn the enemy is close enough to charge, and they can cover your whole battle line.
If you don't charge them, then you'll not be able to overrun the screen, but if you do you get overwatched and they fly off next turn.
I think I'd consider that at 125pts for 5, given that ork boyz/blood letters etc are particularly vulnerable to 5D6 flamers and the ones going to be trying to charge through a screen.
Octovol wrote: No chance, infiltrators are 15pts now and Fly and Flamers come with hefty price tags. I'd say 20 for the Skystalkers and more like 25 AT LEAST for a 2w unit with a 12" flamer that can probably also move 12-14", deep strike and has an invuln. Remember when Infiltrators were 24pts each? HA! those were the days lol
Infiltrators are a good point of comparison, since they have +deepstrike and +neurostatic aura over Ruststalkers, which = a 4 point difference (making the assumption that their default wargear are comparable, which I wouldn't in favor of the Infiltrators, meaning even more value packed into that 4 point difference). 15-16 might have been a bit generous even when you trade the powerswords and stubcarbines out for these flechette rifles, but I still can't see them being more than 18 points.
I will be very surprised if flamer Pterax was below 20 pts, and I'm actually suspecting 10-12 range for the flamer alone. Cognis Flamer is 7pts, being worse than Sterylizors. Incendine Combustor is 15pts, having only +1S advantage but losing on the cover ignoring part. Flame Pteraxi, with DS and Fly, will easily break 25ppm IMO. I also remember seeing some sort of grenades as well, on the Carbine guy at least, so there's another thing to bump the price.
Yup, I would never expect the Sterilyzors to be less than 20, but am making the case for the Skystalkers to land there before any wargear upgrades.
Madjob wrote: Unsurprising for them to be cognis lascannons but it begs the question "how often will it actually be necessary to advance the thing?" since it is a flyer vehicle and if you advance not only are you taking a total -2 to hit penalty, but you are cutting out the heavy phosphor blasters entirely.
Nothing on there looking like a match for a datatether either, it does seem to have some sort of antennae but nothing like what we've seen for a datatether before.
I'm getting into mechanicus this edition. What does cognis denote? Does it make it an assault weapon?
Madjob wrote: Unsurprising for them to be cognis lascannons but it begs the question "how often will it actually be necessary to advance the thing?" since it is a flyer vehicle and if you advance not only are you taking a total -2 to hit penalty, but you are cutting out the heavy phosphor blasters entirely.
Nothing on there looking like a match for a datatether either, it does seem to have some sort of antennae but nothing like what we've seen for a datatether before.
I'm getting into mechanicus this edition. What does cognis denote? Does it make it an assault weapon?
Most cognis weapons are Heavy (we have cognis Autocannons, Lascannons, Heavy Stubbers, and Flamers), which in 8e lets you fire the weapon even if the unit advanced, at a -2 to hit penalty. In addition there is a stratagem which allows a unit to fire cognis weapons on overwatch at full BS instead of only hitting on 6s. For the flamers, since they autohit, they instead roll 2D6 and select the higher result when determining their # of shots.
It's a good point about the stratagem allowing for a nasty overwatch surprise if it gets charged, especially if this thing has a hover mode. It would be fantastic if it did indeed have the option for a data-tether, as that opens the option for BS2+ twin lascannon backfield character sniping (before you ask, another stratagem targeting Skitarii units equipped with a Data-tether gives them +2 to hit).
Actually planes are pretty good at sniping characters, i do it with a Wazbom all the time.
If a character has a footprint next to it big enough to plop a plane and oh look character is closest. Its difficult to deep-strike snipe a character because the 9" limit usually means something is closer that isnt a character, but especially people that are mobile tend to have a spot in the middle of their units thats big enough for a plane.
Its not a surefire thing as if your opponent is aware of it they'll plan for it, but its commonly forgotten.
Thairne wrote: it does not have a rule that allows it to target characters tho, so sniping backfield artillery? Yes. Sniping characters? No.
Usually the plane flies behind their lines, close to a character as possible, and unloads guns at point blank range. One of the unforseen loopholes in the character rules. Most planes have pretty meh weapons, but shooting a character point blank they'll often have enough to do the job. I've done it with vultures packing twin punisher cannons and an avenger with twin lascannon/ML with the avenger cannon. It can be a very nasty trick if you don't prepare for it happening. Just remember that the enemy can do it to you too.
The new gunship plane will probably be pretty good at this if it's decently priced. Bare minimum it can do +1 B's even if it doesn't have the data tether, and between twin lascannons, phosphor blasters, and some stunners/missile things it can probably drop most cheaper characters reliably.
At first I was like "yeah, and that is why you keep your dumb ass casual playing mouth shut in a fething tactics thread were competetive players and big guys talk!"
but then I was like "well.. I didn't have even the slightest idea this was possible, but it makes a LOT of sense".
So... thanks Especially since I play guard that has an easy time hiding their commanders and stuff behind LOS blocking ruins with a bubble wrap to prevent deep strikes... I'll take 3 of each now, please.
Octovol wrote: GW are getting too good at keeping stuff to themselves. Times gone we'd have had stuff leaked all over the shop by now! Need my rules fix... lol
Because the book would have already been at independent shops, or early preorder copies would have arrived, etc.
yeah but all we'd have would be incredibly out of focus and light-shined pictures so we only know like 10% of whats in the picture anyway.
I remember when ghostkeels and stormsurges came out in 7th. I was so mad i couldnt read those stupid blurry pictures lol
yukishiro1 wrote: Community site says rules preview for the cavalry coming this week, FWIW.
Hopefully, it's more of a preview like the weapons preview than the non-article the Archeoptor was. And preferably some actual rules rather than weapons. The weapons don't really give us much indication on how useful a unit will be and in some ways it's actually giving us more misleading info. Without the unit rules some of those weapon profiles seem more or less useful than they actually would be having known what the unit itself can do.
So basically last time it was mainly the hounds, now the raiders, and maybe a 2nd article for the flyer too with some actual rulea. So only the bat's are missing then
0XFallen wrote: So basically last time it was mainly the hounds, now the raiders, and maybe a 2nd article for the flyer too with some actual rulea. So only the bat's are missing then
I doubt we'll get anything more on the Pteraxii, both their weapons were previewed in the last rules tease we got, if they were gonna show anything that would be the time to do it. I'm surprised they separated the sulphur hounds and raiders though, would have made sense to do them in pairs imo.
Flyers have had 2 fluff teasers now as well, they're probably just dull-to-the-max rules-wise, existing weaponry, bombs are new maybe a manoeuvrability rule and short of that it's just a datasheet and maybe one or two pieces of vehicle wargear.
The fact that the archeopter is described as extremely maneuverable suggests it may not be 'supersonic' as in no minimum fly distance and turning arc etc. But that's pure conjecture lol
Hmm, you are kinda right, although I hoped we as the Admech get the funky rules, which so far is not the case for a lot of things in 8th edition.
Only major cool rules I remember are the rad saturation from the vanguards, the Eradication ray variants, although the tank variant especially isnt really strong, Fulgurite electropriests, our Neutron Laser perhaps ... and thats about it
GW’s reaction to the UK’s request for construction and manufacturing industries to start up again could prove interesting.(prime minister address to the uk as of Sunday)
We may see GW take a decision one way or another in plans to resume, or continue to halt production
My guess is the rules team is sitting on the actual interesting tidbits but hanging back till they can get some sort of date parameters to drum up hype to.
Dang dang dang... June 6th is the rules cut-out for the tournament that is most likely going to happen. It would be a really great opportunity to play new rules, but I am very pessimistic the book will see the light this month... It has been usually two weeks of hype building and prevs before launching the book, while it's 12th May already and the marketing is pretty much anemic :(
The book itself might possibly be out by then, but the chance of the models being available before July strikes me as very low. Even before Corona, IIRC it took several months for all the new sisters releases to come out after the codex dropped.
Hmm, you are kinda right, although I hoped we as the Admech get the funky rules, which so far is not the case for a lot of things in 8th edition.
Only major cool rules I remember are the rad saturation from the vanguards, the Eradication ray variants, although the tank variant especially isnt really strong, Fulgurite electropriests, our Neutron Laser perhaps ... and thats about it
The repulsor executioner already has a better version of the neutron laser, though for the price we get almost 3 neutronager lol. Nothing else like the pure mw machine fulgurites are though.
The new Harlequins rules in WD has me hopeful that at least somewhere in GW rules team someone has some thematic ideas. Grey Knights and space Wolves are also examples of someone actually having ideas. But they may just rely on all our new models as our 'pa thing' asking with a few relics, WT and strats. Which is more than most have got, just something specifically thematic for us like the sagas and pivotal roles are just for those armies.
Madjob wrote: Not to sound ungrateful for their efforts to keep giving some kind of content, but this is even more of a non-article than the flyer one.
Yes and no. We know Riders (Ranger-heads) will have a medium-range (so probably ~30") sniper rifle and "extraordinary sensors" so possibly cover ignore. With a previous preview, a suggested outflanking ability (I still hope for scout deployment, but I know I'm going to be disappointed), with a weird S5/-2/2 pistol on Alpha. The sniper profile is a mystery here, and is what worries me the most - we already have one useless Jezzail, we don't need another. If sniper rifles copy the Alpha's pistol profile then it might not be awful though.
Flamedogs will run Vanguards with dual Phosphor Blaster Pistols but we knew that already.
Madjob wrote: Not to sound ungrateful for their efforts to keep giving some kind of content, but this is even more of a non-article than the flyer one.
Yes and no. We know Riders (Ranger-heads) will have a medium-range (so probably ~30") sniper rifle and "extraordinary sensors" so possibly cover ignore. With a previous preview, a suggested outflanking ability (I still hope for scout deployment, but I know I'm going to be disappointed), with a weird S5/-2/2 pistol on Alpha. The sniper profile is a mystery here, and is what worries me the most - we already have one useless Jezzail, we don't need another. If sniper rifles copy the Alpha's pistol profile then it might not be awful though.
Flamedogs will run Vanguards with dual Phosphor Blaster Pistols but we knew that already.
It worries me that the only thing Riders have going are their sniper rifles. How much are three sniper shots doing? They are logically not going to have the same profile the Alpha pistol have (why have a "special" weapon then?). The same as the Radium Jezzail? Hot garbage. Better? How much better? They aren't going to be Transuranic level.
They seem like a rather weird concept. Maybe not in the narrative game GW imagine we play, but not with any kind of competitive usability in mind.
I might kinda use a mobile sniper firebase, as terrains is so dense in my area nowadays that Transuranics just cant see a thing and cant reposition to shoot (I miss old Clandestine Infiltration for that reason :( ), while the damn psykers and aura givers deserves being threatened.
If dogs could additionally fill a role of the SM scout for Admech, meaning having scout deployment, I would be quite satisfied overall.
Ideasweasel wrote: We’ve been well and truly friend zoned by the warhammer previews team.
No stats nookie for anyone.
Yes, that's why we got a series of weapons previews last week.
It sucks that they keep dragging this out. It really does. But the release week for Engine War? We wouldn't have seen anything remotely close to this much attention. We would have had the "Requisitions Approved" article that we got and then...maybe a one-off article on some of the stuff. That would have been it.
I have no hope in the ranger cavalry having the sniper rule.
Think about it. Ballistarii? No sniper rule. Rangers? No sniper rule. Both of which explicitly stated in their lore that they are used for that purpose. No sniper ability whatsoever. I have no faith in the lore meaning much of anything when it comes to rules when it comes to admech. My bet would be the ranger cavalry get outflank annnnnnnd that's it. The vanguard hopefully get the T debuff of the infantry and the ability to advance and fire whatever (yay another unit that gets no benefits from Metallica )
I'm just saying temper your expectations, this is the same team that yanked half our rules going into 8th.
Kanluwen wrote: I'm not expecting these rifles to be 'one shots'.
Expect Rapid Fire or Assault. Look at the Marine Infiltrator's Bolt Carbine variant for how they might work.
Are there many examples of non-heavy, non-one shot sniper weapons out there? Those you mention are only sniper-ish.
Not many, but some. Apart from marines you have (not necessarily exhaustive, just OTOH):
T'au: Sniper Drones with 48" RF1
Necrons: Deathmarks with 24" RF1
Harlequins: Death Jesters with 24" Assault 1 w/ MWs or Assault 3 and it's the model itself that has the character-targeting ability
Gen Cults: Kellermorph with 12" Pistol 2 (carries 3 of them) and it's the model itself that has the character-targeting ability
MrMoustaffa wrote: I have no hope in the ranger cavalry having the sniper rule.
Think about it. Ballistarii? No sniper rule. Rangers? No sniper rule. Both of which explicitly stated in their lore that they are used for that purpose. No sniper ability whatsoever. I have no faith in the lore meaning much of anything when it comes to rules when it comes to admech. My bet would be the ranger cavalry get outflank annnnnnnd that's it. The vanguard hopefully get the T debuff of the infantry and the ability to advance and fire whatever (yay another unit that gets no benefits from Metallica )
I'm just saying temper your expectations, this is the same team that yanked half our rules going into 8th.
Yes, and this is the same team that can't produce a Skitarii Alpha to save their life it seems.
The things you're mentioning(Rangers and Ballistarii) both had it as Precision Shots not as sniper classifications. We're likely to see a stratagem granting it back in Engine War though.
Vineheart01 wrote: Actually planes are pretty good at sniping characters, i do it with a Wazbom all the time.
If a character has a footprint next to it big enough to plop a plane and oh look character is closest. Its difficult to deep-strike snipe a character because the 9" limit usually means something is closer that isnt a character, but especially people that are mobile tend to have a spot in the middle of their units thats big enough for a plane.
Its not a surefire thing as if your opponent is aware of it they'll plan for it, but its commonly forgotten.
I do the same with dakka jets, obvs now have burna bombers for this too. My fave old tactic was to fly into backfield, dakka character to death and save a re-roll for the retaliatory destruction of my jet. The re-roll was for the explodes, when it went off, double sweet and worth a CP.
With our auto explodes strat, this flier could now do the same work for admech.
That strat is one of the reasons i was estatic to get the dunerider. Its the only vehicle we currently has that does more than 1 MW that isnt a Robot (which hurts its own unit in the explosion) or a Crawler, which realistically is surrounded by our own gak too so also a bad idea.
I was annoyed orks didnt get access to that strat but quite frankly a battlewagon auto-booming for D6 damage....probably good we didnt lol.
Raiders seem like a grounded version of the Skyraptors. Just an alternate version of something we already have.
Dragoons can already move fast and be equipped with medium-range sniper rifles and assault pistols, so why have something else that does the same thing? Admittedly the raiders will be cheaper per model but also likely less than half the wounds and less toughness, but role wise it's another case of doubling up on units we already have in our dex that do the same thing without any variance. If they both do the same thing it'll just come down to a) which is cheapest or b) which is better at doing it. My money is that Raiders will actually be cheaper AND better at doing that role. But if we needed that role in the first place we'd be running Dragoons with crap sniper rifles and crap pistols. We don't do that because our arquebus snipers perform multiple useful roles: picking off anything anywhere, hitting backfield vehicles, pressuring psykers and other models that require LoS to stay out of sight thus restricting their power targets, sitting on backfield objectives. So what are they really bringing to the plate? The ability to move fast and shoot at things with low powered rubber bullets? Sulphur hounds at least seem to have a purpose once they've charged up the board.
But that's a running problem in our codex; Why have that loadout on a Dragoon anymore when another unit does it better?
It's why fulgurites at present will never be displaced by any other unit in our army as a melee specialist. Hell, a lot of melee armies don't of that kind of pure output. We have other melee units, but there's no point in taking any of them while fulgurites exist because they all do the same thing, fulgurites just do it the best and for the cheapest.
There needs to be a trade-off, a conscious worthwhile choice. At the moment we just have a bunch of units where 1 unit is just clearly better so the others aren't used. Onagers are now in this position as well. Disintegrators are just better.
I think mid-toughness multi-wound spam could turn out to be fun with Kataphrons and the cavalry. Backed up by Disintegrators, Ironstriders and Dragoons to complete the combo.
@Octovol
Which is exactly why I'm hoping on scout deployment. Taking the mid field in deployment is something we sorely miss, and would greatly appreciate.
As far as Transuranic goes, it just not cut it for me without ability to move. I loved dropping them with a prenerf Stygies Infiltration, as I could have had a chance of securing LoS to shoot a thing. Now... All tables I play on are very densely packed in the middle, to the point I often cant see a thing turn 1. All they do for me is covering a line. But even when they do see, without a support of the other squad they rarely bring a wound from key characters you want dead. With a rise on importance of characters auras and abilities the role of snipers that can actually see and shoot is pretty cool to have IMO (Eliminators spams killing any Admech char in a turn are best example why)
they have a bombing run? Not what i expected but same basic principle. I was expecting the Helldrake fluff due to those talons where they just strike as they fly over.
The T3/2W/4+ and super-close range mentality really makes them sound easily picked off but man they feel mean.
"the Skystalkers use their wings to rapidly redeploy after hitting their target." wait wait wait what? did they give them jump-shoot-jump? o boy, the hate cometh...
I totally misread the grenade rules on my first pass, thinking it was a per-target-model like most other bombing weapons.
One roll per Skystalker is actually quite nice. A (presumably) MSU of 5 would be dropping 3 mortal wounds on average to a vehicle target. Might be tough to find opportunities to fly a unit over a vehicle and have room to land all 5 on the other side. These guys would also be fun for going after Flyers, they could leapfrog the target to bomb it and then charge with the claws, S5 keeps them from wounding on worse than 5+ and if you happen to have Machine Might active you are probably wounding on 4+.
It's not jump-shoot-jump, it's a Swooping hawks style 'Skyleap' from the sound of it. So they can fly high, leave the board and redeepstrike the following turn.
dadamowsky wrote: @Octovol
Which is exactly why I'm hoping on scout deployment. Taking the mid field in deployment is something we sorely miss, and would greatly appreciate.
As far as Transuranic goes, it just not cut it for me without ability to move. I loved dropping them with a prenerf Stygies Infiltration, as I could have had a chance of securing LoS to shoot a thing. Now... All tables I play on are very densely packed in the middle, to the point I often cant see a thing turn 1. All they do for me is covering a line. But even when they do see, without a support of the other squad they rarely bring a wound from key characters you want dead. With a rise on importance of characters auras and abilities the role of snipers that can actually see and shoot is pretty cool to have IMO (Eliminators spams killing any Admech char in a turn are best example why)
I actually love Arqs. Get a max squad of Rangers, pop the +1 to hit Strat, and have fun. I'm one of the only people that does the full squads of Skitarii though.
Madjob wrote: I totally misread the grenade rules on my first pass, thinking it was a per-target-model like most other bombing weapons.
One roll per Skystalker is actually quite nice. A (presumably) MSU of 5 would be dropping 3 mortal wounds on average to a vehicle target. Might be tough to find opportunities to fly a unit over a vehicle and have room to land all 5 on the other side. These guys would also be fun for going after Flyers, they could leapfrog the target to bomb it and then charge with the claws, S5 keeps them from wounding on worse than 5+ and if you happen to have Machine Might active you are probably wounding on 4+.
I'm really unsure what all those "this unit, that unit" refer to. If it is indeed a 3+ per Pteraxii then I'm saying goodbye to the Smash Cap as Skystalkers are my new best friend in hunting planes down
Madjob wrote: I totally misread the grenade rules on my first pass, thinking it was a per-target-model like most other bombing weapons.
One roll per Skystalker is actually quite nice. A (presumably) MSU of 5 would be dropping 3 mortal wounds on average to a vehicle target. Might be tough to find opportunities to fly a unit over a vehicle and have room to land all 5 on the other side. These guys would also be fun for going after Flyers, they could leapfrog the target to bomb it and then charge with the claws, S5 keeps them from wounding on worse than 5+ and if you happen to have Machine Might active you are probably wounding on 4+.
I'm really unsure what all those "this unit, that unit" refer to. If it is indeed a 3+ per Pteraxii then I'm saying goodbye to the Smash Cap as Skystalkers are my new best friend in hunting planes down
The enemy unit is always described with : enemy. So its going to be max 1MW per Pteraxii model. I dont think big units will be worth though, they seem pretty squishy and have abysmal leadership...
Yeah unless theres some pretty gnarly stratagem related tactics i think MSU is the way to go for these guys.
And we have other, presumably cheaper ways to get Wrath of Mars out there. Which is the biggest one i can think of that would want a full squad.
A smaller squad can also pass over a unit easier. Assuming they goto 10 max, thats quite a footprint to try to fly over something without advancing.
I will be a party pooper but my nose tells me the Swooping Batmans are supposed to work similarly to Swooping Hawks. Meaning it will/should be read as "a D6 per model of a unit that Pteraxii fly over"; with plausible further restriction capping number of dice at Pteraxii models alive.
Hawks wording:
Swooping Hawks can fire a spread of grenades when they are set up on the battlefield using the Children of Baharroth ability and as they fly over enemy units in their Movement phase. To do so after the unit has been set up using the Children of Baharroth ability, pick an enemy unit within 12" of them. To do so after the unit has moved, pick one enemy unit that they flew over. Then, in either case, roll one dice for each model in the enemy unit (up to a maximum of one dice for each model in the Swooping Hawks unit). Each time you roll a 6 the target unit suffers a mortal wound.
Having the batmen work as a roll per model in their unit would make sense with the weapon being arc grenades that are meant to hunt vehicles. The alternative, swooping hawk style, would be near useless for what the lore would imply is it's ideal role.
That said, either version can be good and have its own benefits, basically just decides if they're good for antihorde or chipping a few wounds onto something without worrying about the wounds being stopped. As it appears to be, it seems good for killing off something like an enemy dreadnaught with a wound or two left tying up units for example.
normally i would debate that, but its actually cleanly written...which is a bit of a shocker. And like MrMoustaffa said, if its meant for vehicles theres very few it would actually hurt since MOST vehicles are not in a unit (deffkoptaz, killakanz, grot tanks, robots, ironstrides, dragoons, i think Guard have one that doesnt split...i cant think of anything else). A random mortal wound on a vehicle, even a trukk, big whoop. Potential 5? Ouch. It wont kill a vehicle but it can easily be that bit that caused it to die in the end. No idea how many times ive had Neutron Lasers reduce a vehicle down to 2 wounds and only thing i had left that even could hurt it was out of range, already shot, or another Neutron laser lol
It's important to note as well the timing of the Arc Grenades.
Start of the Shooting Phase. Chipping some wounds off a vehicle incidental to moving your Pteraxii into a better firing position opens up some interesting avenues for popping transports and dealing with the contents using the Pteraxii themselves(who have a 24" range on their Assault weapons).
Depending on the points, I’m real tempted to take a big squad of these dudes. I do run Mars, but I just feel like a huge squad of winged dudes would look boss. Also 50 shots coming from 24” away? Sounds pretty tasty.
At least we pretty much know how many points a min squad of skystalkers will be. 5 sweeping hawks are 65 points and these are just better versions of them in everything except movement. So I reckon we're looking at 70-75 points per squad.
Sterylizors are gonna be pricey though. Flying Ruststalkers with incendine combustors? I reckon we're looking at 25 each.
We once believed Admech obviously has an invulnerable save, and then Skorpius came out. So let's just say I'm counting on no Heavy penalty, but I won't bet on it (neither on the invuln)
Octovol wrote: At least we pretty much know how many points a min squad of skystalkers will be. 5 sweeping hawks are 65 points and these are just better versions of them in everything except movement. So I reckon we're looking at 70-75 points per squad.
Sterylizors are gonna be pricey though. Flying Ruststalkers with incendine combustors? I reckon we're looking at 25 each.
Yeah, while I was thinking of doing a squad of 10 Sterylizors, I fear it’ll be a huge point sink. But then, 10d6 of -1AP after deep striking is pretty nasty, their melee seems pretty sweet too.
This is ultimately going to boil down to how many points they cost, as well as what stratagems they get--especially an attack twice or a redeploy stratagem. Pteraxii are pretty much directly competing with Electro-Priests (drop in or run up to a threat, cripple it, force your opponent to waste time over-killing your unit), so they need to cost 12-15 points or it's better to stick to the Boat Priests strategy. That being said, having Fly and innate Deep Strike would go a long way to making them viable, especially if your build does not use Boats or wants to keep the Boats focused on capping objectives. (Vanilla Rangers would be best for this.)
It's all about the points cost. I'm not very encouraged, they honestly seem like a halfway house in a lot of ways - 2W 4+ isn't enough to really keep them alive, but it is enough to increase their points cost; their shooting isn't really good enough to kill much, but it's also not terrible; their melee isn't very threatening, but again it's enough to suck up a few points. I feel like they're paying a lot of points to be all-rounders and aside from intercessors all-rounders don't see much success in 40k.
I'm a bit less enthusiastic about the Skystalkers when I took another look and realized the pteraxii talons, despite being named for the template of both units, are probably Sterilyzor exclusive. So Skystalkers are not as versatile as I thought - probably good as they would otherwise be marginalizing the ground sicarians quite a bit, but still a shame. It would have been nice to have an alternate threat to Flyers, and they were also looking to be very effective at cracking transports and blending the contents in the same turn. They can do that decently enough still, but getting a charge off with those talons made it look like they'd be hard pressed for a target that would survive everything they could throw at it.
That...would be a massive letdown. But would also be incredibly weird as theyre both modeled with talons. GW in this edition more than ever likes to slap rules on any noticable wargear they can, its why Killakanz have 3 different melee weapons for...reasons lol.
Vineheart01 wrote: That...would be a massive letdown. But would also be incredibly weird as theyre both modeled with talons. GW in this edition more than ever likes to slap rules on any noticable wargear they can, its why Killakanz have 3 different melee weapons for...reasons lol.
That's actually what sealed it for me: take a closer look at the Sterilyzors legs vs. the Skystalkers. Sterilyzors have that large bladed talon with the additional piston support on the back, Skystalkers lack it entirely. As you said, GW likes to slap rules on any noticeable wargear, so something like a nastier looking claw on otherwise identical units undoubtedly has unique rules.
im having a hard time telling if its actually different or its the angles playing tricks. But now that you mention it, it does look like that back of the foot talon is different. Slightly.
If they seriously make the fletchette ones literally flying infiltrators with a little extra range....wtf was the point? Admech isnt marines, we shouldnt be getting units that are literally a superior version of another yet lol. They have to have some other rule that hasnt been revealed yet. Thats just weird.
You are right, they are different. One just has chicken legs and small talons, the other has pistons supporting a large bladed back talon. So yeah, it seems safe to say the flechette dudes won’t get the melee benefits.
I think this basically seals it for me, I think if I take them, I’ll be taking the Flamer guys.
Honestly, as long as both are Fast Attack rather than Elite choices? I'm happy.
I can definitely see a place for the Skystalkers as a harassment unit when the enemy may have vehicles in the backfield...and I'm kind of enjoying the idea of going after Character keyworded vehicles with sWoOpInG!11!
Only melee option that seems to be confirmed for the Skystalkers is the taser goad on the alpha. Definitely feels like a bit of a waste for the whole unit to have 2A but no proper melee option. Even more so if the charge +1 A rule is not exclusive to the Sterilyzors.
Primaris are rocking 2A even on Eliminators. The 2A for the Skystalkers is likely to showcase they're Sicarian equivalents, not that they're assault troops.
So far, nothing points to "Swooping Strikes"(the +1A) being on Skystalkers.
Vineheart01 wrote: im having a hard time telling if its actually different or its the angles playing tricks.
But now that you mention it, it does look like that back of the foot talon is different. Slightly.
If they seriously make the fletchette ones literally flying infiltrators with a little extra range....wtf was the point? Admech isnt marines, we shouldnt be getting units that are literally a superior version of another yet lol.
They have to have some other rule that hasnt been revealed yet. Thats just weird.
Infiltrators: S6, extra hits in melee. Short range shooting.
Skystalkers: (without claws) S4 in melee. Long range shooting. Fancy grenades
I fail to see how they are "literally a superior version" of Infiltrators.
I'd argue Skystalkers having Fly, speed and range are indeed superior already. Infiltrators melee output comes into play in 30% chances of a charge after DS - thus all the cases I ever have seen were always built around the idea of WoM nuke. I'm trying to run them in narrative games as Stygies and... let's just say they are not returning the investment.
Will Skystalkers do any better than WoM nuke? Maybe, depends on how this grenade cluster rule is really supposed to work, and their points pricing obviously. But even if they are only another WoM delivery, then at least they can do it from 24" afar, not trying to squeeze themselves among Omniscramblers, Scouts, hordes jumping all over the place and whatnot. In my games, Infiltrators have lost their value for the sole sake of how screened out the table is.
Pretty excited for the new units, they actually seem to be going for a good number of mobility niches the admech didn't have before.
Skystalkers seem more like a skirmish/ harrasment role than the infiltrators chaff killing/tying down.
Flamers seem like a pretty strong screen/ mobile defensive unit that help fight off infantry, then reposition to support whatever else needs protection.
The cavalry might serve an overall more aggressive role. The flame hounds seem more for taking points than defending like the jump flamers, and reminds me a lot of seekers of slaanesh, but more fire less claws.
The final cav seems like a mystery, but i'm reckoning it'll serve as a variation of skystalker harass- some kind of sniper to hunt squishy characters or maybe put wounds on harder targets in the form or mortals?
If they give Infiltrators they -1 to Hit 12" aura back and give both units Scout instead of deepstrike ( or the new units have scout) and ruststalkers get they stungrenades and lethality back. THEN I think it will be very interesting to choose different sicarians. However atm we have a lot of choices with not much impact like rangers/vanguards, arc rifles, plasma vs grav...
0XFallen wrote: If they give Infiltrators they -1 to Hit 12" aura back and give both units Scout instead of deepstrike ( or the new units have scout) and ruststalkers get they stungrenades and lethality back. THEN I think it will be very interesting to choose different sicarians. However atm we have a lot of choices with not much impact like rangers/vanguards, arc rifles, plasma vs grav...
As someone that uses Graia, Infiltrators are awesome for getting that deny Strat in more places.
Vineheart01 wrote: i literally stopped using graia purely because the refusal to yield on multi wound models is irritating and uber slow to do lol.
You only ever make one roll. What's the issue?
Unit suffered 7 wounds. First guy has 2 wounds, roll 2 saves, both failed, roll Graia, passed. Model has 1 wound left now. Roll 3rd wound, passed, still 1 wound remaining Roll 4th wound, failed, Graia, failed, dead model Next model has 2 wounds, roll 2 saves, pass1/fail1, 1 damage on that model no graia roll needed.
Try that with 20+ wounds. Thats why i was getting annoyed. The damage of the individual wound doesnt change how many Graia rolls you make but the raw number of wounds do. If he didnt actually die, he makes another save on the next one.
I stopped using Graia after my last Enginseer being sniped, and Skitarii tied in combat without a Fall Back option :p. Now I'm using only <mixed> detachment, with one Lucius Skitarii unit to DS them for a Linebreaker or some objective.
Vineheart01 wrote: i literally stopped using graia purely because the refusal to yield on multi wound models is irritating and uber slow to do lol.
You only ever make one roll. What's the issue?
Unit suffered 7 wounds.
First guy has 2 wounds, roll 2 saves, both failed, roll Graia, passed. Model has 1 wound left now.
Roll 3rd wound, passed, still 1 wound remaining
Roll 4th wound, failed, Graia, failed, dead model
Next model has 2 wounds, roll 2 saves, pass1/fail1, 1 damage on that model no graia roll needed.
Try that with 20+ wounds. Thats why i was getting annoyed. The damage of the individual wound doesnt change how many Graia rolls you make but the raw number of wounds do. If he didnt actually die, he makes another save on the next one.
I'm not sure you're doing this right...
If you have 5 models each with two wounds, you resolve ALL the attacks and damage, THEN all the graia rolls. All attacks and deaths occur at the same time during a single attack from an enemy. You don't roll for any graia saves until all the attacks have been processed. If all the models are 'killed' before the attacks are used up, there those attacks are discarded, it's what makes it a better rule than FNP on most models.
The way you describe it it's like someone getting shot and 'killed' then the opponent somehow reserving some shots so that when you stand back up from your graia roll they continue shooting. Whereas whats actually happening is all shots come in, some of your units are 'killed' then some of them refuse to yield and stand back up.
Attacks, by the book, should be made one by one. Meaning a weapon with 2 attacks should firstly resolve the entire sequence of hit-wound-save-damage for a single attack, and only then resolve the entire sequence for the second one. We, of course, don't play that way as it would be tedious, hence why fast dice exist, but in the situation when multiple attacks can each trigger an effect (like the Graia refusal to yield) you have to roll each potentially killing attack separately.
That also means in the case when you have a 5 model squad of Vanguards, and there are 10 unsaved wounds, you have to Graia all 10 unsaved wounds, not 5 dying models.
if you did it the way you describe, Graia would be borderline OP because you could technically fail to kill a single model with 50 successful wounds because of literally a single 6 roll. My friend initially saw it that way and until i corrected him he wondered why Graia was so broken as his tank absolutely refused to die since he kept making that singular D6 roll, no matter wtf hit that tank.
Like dadamowsky said, wounds are technically done one at a time. Allocate, save, apply damage if failed, allocate next. A model is slain the instant its wounds are reduced to 0, and being reduced to 0 is what keeps you from allocating more wounds to that model. There is no clause saying "after all attacks, roll for any slain..." so it must happen right then and there. The vast majority of 40k you can speedroll i.e. bulk roll the wounds to drastically speed things up. The only time you absolutely MUST slow down is if theres different saves in the unit or something happens at a wound threshold that can affect the next save. The same goes for anybody with FNP on a single model in a unit. If they want that FNP, they gotta roll slowly for that one model until it dies or they opt to roll for the rest of the unit instead.
Thats why Graia bothers me. Stalkers/infiltrators for me generally dont get hit with 2D guns, that stuff is usually pumped into my dragoons/ironstriders/breachers/destroyers since therye a bigger threat and harder to wound. Its the chaff-clearing guns that always go after my stalkers/infiltrators since they still wound reliably. So if they get blasted by a 10man squad of primaris dorks i generally got ~15 rolls i need to slow roll, usually followed by another afterwords. Its mega slow.
Its not better than FNP. The ONLY edge it has over FNP is it works on morale and "is slain" rules, while FNP doesnt. But you dont get it per wound so its total trash except on mass model units. Thats why i initially wanted to run numbers admech, but found i lacked any form of punch so i had to start using vehicles and graia stinks for vehicles. These new units coming out may bring that mentality back out.
I think it could be really fun having Sulphurhounds bound up supported by the Sterylizors. Works pretty well for my group’s fluff too since my guys are exterminating the planet due to a large scale Nurgle invasion.
Graia can be potentially better vs damage 2+ weapons. Electro Priests, for instance, need a single successful roll of Graia to deny Avenger, not 2 FnPs... but I admit it is rather a very narrow niche, just as Lucius -1AP ignoring. What I find subpar about a current Graia (aside from a no-Fall-Back penalty which is there... for no other reason than to be irritating TBH) is the same thing I find subpar about our Bionics inv - a roll of 6 is just not really reliable and serves no other purpose than being a token. It's cool when it's rolled, but you just don't expect it to happen. If Graia ticked on a 5+ (excluding Vehicle keywords) it might be a decent FW to run survivalist Infantry based lists.
That, or it was a proper FNP +1
I.e. a FNP that still works on "is slain" or failed morale. That way it actually does something once in awhile.
Would also make that stupid FAQ actually make sense that priests dont get it on top of their FNP (seriously still dont understand that faq they are NOT the same thing in the slightest)
Vineheart01 wrote: That, or it was a proper FNP +1
I.e. a FNP that still works on "is slain" or failed morale. That way it actually does something once in awhile.
Would also make that stupid FAQ actually make sense that priests dont get it on top of their FNP (seriously still dont understand that faq they are NOT the same thing in the slightest)
With the Graia dogma, a group of Fulgurite Electro-Priests get this save, followed by a second pseudo-saving throw from Fanatical Devotion, followed by their final Refusal To Yield roll.
Everytime someone mentions the Graia RTY the same thoughts go through my head because the way it actually works MAKES NO SENSE!
20 shots rain down from the sky some hit the ground, some hit armour and bounce off, some mortally wound the last members of the unit. Sad times. Attack sequence over. But whats this!?Through the stubborn dogged determination of forgeworld Graia 2 of those members refuse to give in, they will keep fighting for all they're worth! They get back up and keep fighting!
That's thematic. That's cool. THAT is how it should work. Not this bs that flies in my face everytime I think it's worth switching forgeworld.
For the record I agree how you both describe it. That doesn't make it any more wrong or any less crap.
Vineheart01 wrote: i literally stopped using graia purely because the refusal to yield on multi wound models is irritating and uber slow to do lol.
You only ever make one roll. What's the issue?
Unit suffered 7 wounds.
First guy has 2 wounds, roll 2 saves, both failed, roll Graia, passed. Model has 1 wound left now.
Roll 3rd wound, passed, still 1 wound remaining
Roll 4th wound, failed, Graia, failed, dead model
Next model has 2 wounds, roll 2 saves, pass1/fail1, 1 damage on that model no graia roll needed.
Try that with 20+ wounds. Thats why i was getting annoyed. The damage of the individual wound doesnt change how many Graia rolls you make but the raw number of wounds do. If he didnt actually die, he makes another save on the next one.
I'm not sure you're doing this right...
If you have 5 models each with two wounds, you resolve ALL the attacks and damage, THEN all the graia rolls. All attacks and deaths occur at the same time during a single attack from an enemy. You don't roll for any graia saves until all the attacks have been processed. If all the models are 'killed' before the attacks are used up, there those attacks are discarded, it's what makes it a better rule than FNP on most models.
The way you describe it it's like someone getting shot and 'killed' then the opponent somehow reserving some shots so that when you stand back up from your graia roll they continue shooting. Whereas whats actually happening is all shots come in, some of your units are 'killed' then some of them refuse to yield and stand back up.
This is how I've been doing it. Nobody has questioned me whatsoever
It ought to just work as: "after all attacks [actions? if you want to include psychic powers etc] from a unit are completed, roll a dice for each model with this keyword that was destroyed. On a 6, that model is not destroyed and remains alive with 1 wound." And let it stack with FNP.
So wait, if a unit of 5 is shot by 40 shots of -4 AP, 5 shots kills them, the other 35 shots are lost, then I make my 5 6+’s, and any 6’s keeps 1+ of them in play? As opposed to FnP where they’d have to make 36 6+’s to have at least 1 alive?
I mean, that seems like a really strong rule, but jeez that must slow the game down horrifically.
IF thats how it worked, it would be a strong rule with the potential to just trollolololol especially against elitist armies that dont have many units.
But no shots are lost. The only thing thats lost is if a 6D weapon kills a vanguard, he only makes 1 roll not 6 like FNP would so the extra 5 wounds are lost.
But 6 1W shots? gotta roll 6 graia rolls to survive.
Ah okay cool that makes more sense. Still slows things down but isn’t as nuts as I thought it was.
I’m sort of tempted to change from Mars to Graia though, purely for how cool it’d be having Vanguard charge into melee to point blank dudes in the face with their carbines after nuking them with their aura.
But I really like the rolling 2 canticles and Cawl flipping it up or down...
Graian castle built around Emotionless Clarity might be somewhat a decent idea, especially now when we are getting more Assault profiles. Kastelans that can shoot into combat with Strafing Fire are basically immune to their gratest demise: combat tagging. Cognis Flamers and now Sterylizors (especially with their heroic intervention!) might be actually a very good addition to this type of list.
One tiny bit of a problem: Eliminators, Vindicare, GSC pistol guy, and generally snipers. Admech's characters are just too soft to build an entire list around them. Maybe with a Cawl exception, our characters are absolutely destroyed by the top (meaning ones used at all) sniper options. And the Graian castle idea crumbles at the very moment when WL is killed. Fun to play semi and non competitively though.
Would it work having a bunch of max units riding up in the transports? Can probably have the Dominus in one with a bunch of Elecro priests as bodyguards. Then all bale and charge in when the Sulphurhounds and Sterylizors show up.
I tried it before I had enough Skorpius to spam Duneriders, as a footslogging army. Maybe there's a value to discover in a mechanised Graia, although as auras don't work from inside the transports the major flaw of the idea persists. If our Dominus got some sort of a Storm Shield relic (wouldn't protect against Vindicare), increased T and W count, damage decreasing by half or (ideally) a rule similar to Ghaz wounds lost per phase limitation, Graian castle might actually be viable.
yukishiro1 wrote: It ought to just work as: "after all attacks [actions? if you want to include psychic powers etc] from a unit are completed, roll a dice for each model with this keyword that was destroyed. On a 6, that model is not destroyed and remains alive with 1 wound." And let it stack with FNP.
Thing is if you have 3 models in your unit left and fail morale so that 5 would flee, you don't roll 5 RTY to keep those 3 alive do you Contradictions!
Vineheart01 wrote: gotta hyke the prices to make up for the month/half they werent able to sell anything
As was pointed out in the thread on the topic, May is traditionally when price hikes happen if they're going to. It's a tax thing for them.
It has literally nothing to do with the pandemic.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mariongodspeed wrote: I saw Sicarrian Ruststalkers on the list for "price adjustment". I'd love to know who at GW thinks those models can support a price hike...
Last time we had a price hike on some stuff was also around the time they started doing some repacks for various factions and/or updating Start Collecting sets.
$49 Sicarians(which is what they went up--$3) is a bit more palatable if we're about to see a new Start Collecting that doesn't have a $36 Techpriest Dominus(it is on the list but the price from a retailer is the same as the current one) in it but does feature a Techpriest Manipulus or Enginseer, Skitarii(who are on the list as well--$44), and Sicarians or if they're going to drop a $70 or whatever box of 10 Sicarian.
yukishiro1 wrote: Where did you get the info on what the new prices are going to be? I'm not seeing that on the page. Is it listed somewhere else?
There's a link in the article to the Games Workshop store with a filter turned on to show the items which are going to see a price hike. As far as how much they're going up, I think he's just making a guess - previous price hikes have usually fallen in the $2.50-$5.00 USD per box range. With Sicarians at $46 USD right now, $49 or $50 seems like a pretty safe guess. I would bet whatever they sell for, the Pteraxii will match.
Edit: Nevermind, found the thread. But yes I will still guess Pteraxii to match the Sicarians.
In case anyone else was wondering and didn't see the point of "it was somewhere else but I'm not going to tell you where," the link to the thread with the prices is:
yukishiro1 wrote: In case anyone else was wondering and didn't see the point of "it was somewhere else but I'm not going to tell you where," the link to the thread with the prices is:
I’m wondering if all ‘vehicles’ get that ability to fire in combat or if itll be a new keyword. Kastellans broken legs not so much a problem if its all vehicles.
quite frankly i hope its not literally all vehicles.
That would put a HUGE boon on a lot of vehicles, particularly ones with both melee and shooting of note. Either they end up ludicrously strong, or overpriced as they got hyked to compensate and in typical GW fashion overhyked it.
But at least they would be useful. At the moment any vehicle thats useful either gets mobbed by chaff and is useless. Or shot off the board with high firepower. Anything that isnt gets ignored, which hopefully the new blast rules will help with....if only we had more blasts lol.
Though that extends to flamers, sterylisors and kastellans benefit even more.
Octovol wrote: But at least they would be useful. At the moment any vehicle thats useful either gets mobbed by chaff and is useless. Or shot off the board with high firepower. Anything that isnt gets ignored, which hopefully the new blast rules will help with....if only we had more blasts lol.
Though that extends to flamers, sterylisors and kastellans benefit even more.
I'm looking at Eradication for our blast go to - it is already a D6 weapon with a battle cannon profile. I wouldn't mind other tweaks, but scoring solid 6 shots vs units of 10+ wouldn't be bad even today. T4 blobs might "love" it. At least I hope so, as it is hands down best looking gun in 40k
Octovol wrote: I’m wondering if all ‘vehicles’ get that ability to fire in combat or if itll be a new keyword. Kastellans broken legs not so much a problem if its all vehicles.
The tease is "tanks are back on track".
I'd expect "tank" to be added or it to be something where if it has keyword "tank"(which there's Leman Russ Battle Tank and Tank Commanders), it gets the bonus.
Yeah that was my thought is "whats a tank then"
Because a lot of vehicles are not actually a tank, and a lot that are are just a transport.
Outside Guard or a few tanks with Fly keyword anyway i cant really think of one outside said transports (i.e. im ignoring Hammerheads because...fly...who cares they already fall back)
I would expect Onagers and Desintegrators being a tank. They certainly look and feel like. Maybe it will be defined by wounds count? Like W10+ can shoot from combat, period?
I don't expect Disintegrators or Duneriders to have "Tank". I don't expect it to be tied to Wounds either.
I'd expect a generic errata at most and tying it strictly to "Tank" being in the name otherwise. Leman Russes are really the only "tank" tanks we have in the game right now that don't have Fly or a specific thing allowing for them to fire as normal.
I'd think Onagers if they're going to get this? Will get their own bespoke version.
I hope they really have play-tested this stuff extensively and really know what they're doing in a way they haven't in previous editions, because this has all the hallmarks of a balance disaster.
It also makes the price hike on infantry sets even more ridiculous. Tanks already tend to be much more $-to-point efficient than infantry, and these changes can only possibly end in tanks getting their points costs upped significantly, so the disparity is going to be even greater. You can spend $60 on a tank worth 200 points, or $45 on 5 infantry worth 60 points. Hmm.
I could see the Dunerider not being a tank but the Skorpius is 100% a tank. If its not a tank because it "hovers" then they better not give Tank to the primaris vehicles or tau vehicles.
I don't think the rule is just going to be "tanks get to shoot even when in combat, period." That would basically just reverse the current situation, and you'd have tanks charging infantry blocks just to tag *them* so *they* can't shoot while the tank still can.
More likely, the rule will wither go both ways - i.e. the tank can shoot but also be shot - or it'll be something more complicated than that, i.e. rather than allowing tanks to shoot in combat, instead giving them a way to get out of combat with infantry and then shoot once they are out.
yukishiro1 wrote: I don't think the rule is just going to be "tanks get to shoot even when in combat, period." That would basically just reverse the current situation, and you'd have tanks charging infantry blocks just to tag *them* so *they* can't shoot while the tank still can.
More likely, the rule will wither go both ways - i.e. the tank can shoot but also be shot - or it'll be something more complicated than that, i.e. rather than allowing tanks to shoot in combat, instead giving them a way to get out of combat with infantry and then shoot once they are out.
One thought I had is that maybe 'tanks' can fire their weapons at the unit that has it locked in combat, but not anything further away?
I dunno if they're making a point of saying 'tanks arent useless when tagged by infantry' then it would be a pretty poor fix for it not to be every army's main battle tanks that can shoot. The sort of crossover where it gets a bit dubious are stuff like dreadnaughts, wraithknights and kastellan. Those things ought to be better in combat but should they get to shoot while engaged? I mean thematically they're huge and would fire over the top of any infantry, even marines. But similarly if Ironstriders can't shoot in combat, then we'd likely swap them out for eradication onagers; Thought the big draw on ironstriders is a large squad you can give +2 to hit to...so I guess it's swings and roundabouts.
All I'm saying is that if tanks being able to fire while in combat is one of the 9 pillars of the edition then if it doesn't cover everything that doesn't have a dedicated close combat weapon then it's not much of a fix.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It's defintely a question I think they'd probably answer at Tuesday's in-depth FAQ.
It can end up like "you can shoot with your tank from combat but with -2 modifier to hit" for all we know. I actually expect vehicles to be able to trample infantry more efficiently as well.
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