I expect the rule to be "[tanks] treat all weapons as pistols while in melee".
That would fit the bill of how they described it.
A LR could fire his hull-mounted and sponson bolters into the infantry bogging it down and, once those are cleared, fire its main weapon at a different target.
Just having it shoot as normal would remove too much of a weakness from vehicles.
This way tieing it down with chaff might take it out for a turn or two, but not the entire rest of the game which is just too effective.

except that's now how targeting works now so that would require a complete rework of targeting rules. making them pistol means the cannon would also have to fire at the infantry

speculation is largely pointless as this could be acheived in a number of different ways - really we just need to wait and see

Good news for anyone wanting more bodies and hovertanks.

Also the preview of the contents has some interesting bits, forgeworld specific canticles, more dogmas and more Cohort formations to look forward too. No datasheet for deadolus though so is he gone?

Agamembar wrote:
Also the preview of the contents has some interesting bits, forgeworld specific canticles, more dogmas and more Cohort formations to look forward too. No datasheet for deadolus though so is he gone?

Daedaolus' rules have always been in Blackstone Fortress: Escalation or Combat Arena.

The fact that canticles are in there has me curious. Is it going to be an alternate table, expanded table, or a revised table?

 Kanluwen wrote:

Agamembar wrote:
Also the preview of the contents has some interesting bits, forgeworld specific canticles, more dogmas and more Cohort formations to look forward too. No datasheet for deadolus though so is he gone?

Daedaolus' rules have always been in Blackstone Fortress: Escalation or Combat Arena.

Yes but it would have been nice to finally have it together with the rest of the new admech units, they did it for the Manipulus so why him and not Deadolus?

I guess he is a character and is off doing his own thing so maybe that is the reason.

my guess it might be revised since the whole issue with inquisitors "not denying canticles" when..nothing did anyway topic.
Willing to bet thats a thing. All i can say is they better put an exception for Knights if they do it.

Also that new start collecting....if its still in the ~95USD range that is a freakin' steal. I may have to snag that, i only have 2 transports/engineers anyway. Its not a dominus!!!! It can happen!!!

Agamembar wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Agamembar wrote:
Also the preview of the contents has some interesting bits, forgeworld specific canticles, more dogmas and more Cohort formations to look forward too. No datasheet for deadolus though so is he gone?

Daedaolus' rules have always been in Blackstone Fortress: Escalation or Combat Arena.

Yes but it would have been nice to finally have it together with the rest of the new admech units, they did it for the Manipulus so why him and not Deadolus?
I guess he is a character and is off doing his own thing so maybe that is the reason.

Manipulus could be sold by himself. Daedolus cannot be.

It's physically impossible for them to sell any of the Blackstone Fortress Explorers without clipping the models off of the sprues by themselves.
Combat Arena? It's that same sprue.
Until the Explorers get 'alternate sculpts' or something like that, I can't imagine them publishing them in a book format.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Agamembar wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Agamembar wrote:
Also the preview of the contents has some interesting bits, forgeworld specific canticles, more dogmas and more Cohort formations to look forward too. No datasheet for deadolus though so is he gone?

Daedaolus' rules have always been in Blackstone Fortress: Escalation or Combat Arena.

Yes but it would have been nice to finally have it together with the rest of the new admech units, they did it for the Manipulus so why him and not Deadolus?
I guess he is a character and is off doing his own thing so maybe that is the reason.

Spoiler:

Manipulus could be sold by himself. Daedolus cannot be.

It's physically impossible for them to sell any of the Blackstone Fortress Explorers without clipping the models off of the sprues by themselves.
Combat Arena? It's that same sprue.
Until the Explorers get 'alternate sculpts' or something like that, I can't imagine them publishing them in a book format.

Ah I see! ok that explains that then, they really can't have him seperate then. I ended up kitbashing my own and just hoped I wouldn't need to battlescribe for the rules all the time ah well no a big problem I suppose.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
my guess it might be revised since the whole issue with inquisitors "not denying canticles" when..nothing did anyway topic.
Willing to bet thats a thing. All i can say is they better put an exception for Knights if they do it.

Right above "Canticles of the Omnissiah" it says "Forge World".

So we're getting Forge World specific Canticles, a "Forge World Dogmas" section(which is probably 'Build Your Own'), and new Stratagems.

Also that new start collecting....if its still in the ~95USD range that is a freakin' steal. I may have to snag that, i only have 2 transports/engineers anyway. Its not a dominus!!!! It can happen!!!

Even at $100 it's a steal. The Skitarii are free, no matter how you spin it.

Especially in light of them going up to $44.
I'm torn as I don't really need more Skitarii, sitting at 160 of the blighters now...but the transport is $75 by itself!

Its really easy to kitbash Dr. D anyway. Ranger with a pistol (any except the arc kinda looks similar anyway), part of an Omnispex arm, various bits to make a computer device on said arm, and some antennas.

Unfortunately hes probably the only character from Blackstone Fortress that is actively gone after. The rest are kinda bleh. So you probably wont really make much money back selling the other models.

Agamembar wrote:

Ah I see! ok that explains that then, they really can't have him seperate then. I ended up kitbashing my own and just hoped I wouldn't need to battlescribe for the rules all the time ah well no a big problem I suppose.

It's even funnier when you realize that the datasheets for the Explorers? They explicitly were set up to avoid people just splitting the box up easily. You end up having to photocopy pages if you want to do that, as some stuff is front/back or on the same page.

It's fairly unfriendly for splitboxing, but given that some of their board games had people flogging the minis for dumb prices? Not surprising.

Excited. Lots of promise.

But it seems like there are no new relics??

Not every release has seen new Relics. Genestealer Cult, off the top of my head, didn't get them--instead they got Psychic Powers for the named groups.

I'm curious if "Cohorts of the Forge Worlds" might be where we get some traits or something for our Skitarii. It's right before the Holy Order Warlord Traits.

Well, I hope there is a Forge World for mechanized armies like mine. I am just playing pure Mars for the Canticles these days, relying mostly on my tanks with Cawl rerolls to do the damage, but I would love to switch over to a better option if it becomes available.

I hope Sicarians get a massive and deserved buff.

I also want our characters to become scary instead of old nerds with slight buffs.

I don't really believe in the ground-up rework - my bet is we will still be able to pick one per game or roll any number of the same one, just with the new options on the table.

I wonder will it be possible to customize the "Canticles Pool" to roll from, I'd gladly got rid of the Electromancer... finally...

Kinda a bummer if there's no relics (which there don't seem to be), given how garbage the existing relics are.

It seems weird that a faction literally built on having the weirdest, wackiest technology has relics that are total junk compared to most other factions in the game. You would think in the 10,000 years Cawl spent making better Space Marines, he woulda cooked up a few nice little toys for himself and his boys too...

yukishiro1 wrote:
Kinda a bummer if there's no relics (which there don't seem to be), given how garbage the existing relics are.

It seems weird that a faction literally built on having the weirdest, wackiest technology has relics that are total junk compared to most other factions in the game. You would think in the 10,000 years Cawl spent making better Space Marines, he woulda cooked up a few nice little toys for himself and his boys too...

I know we used to have a pistol or taser goad that could shunt stuff into parallel dimenstions if you rolled well which was instant death for whatever model was the target. Those where the days!

slightly annoyed that literally both my armies got no new relics.
Orks got Kustom Jobs at least, but our characters still suck lol.

 Thairne wrote:
I expect the rule to be "[tanks] treat all weapons as pistols while in melee".
That would fit the bill of how they described it.
A LR could fire his hull-mounted and sponson bolters into the infantry bogging it down and, once those are cleared, fire its main weapon at a different target.
Just having it shoot as normal would remove too much of a weakness from vehicles.
This way tieing it down with chaff might take it out for a turn or two, but not the entire rest of the game which is just too effective.

Except video they said "shoot at other stuff". That sounded more like shooting FROM combat rather than TO combat.

"many have complained about grots charging into tanks rendering them useless"
"that doesn't work like that anymore"
"the tank will kill them in melee"

AT which point another said "and shoot other stuff"

That was roughly how the conversation in video went.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
slightly annoyed that literally both my armies got no new relics.
Orks got Kustom Jobs at least, but our characters still suck lol.

I'm ok with it for Orks, besides Biggest Boss is probably better than any relic they would have added, and I have a hard time imagining a better relic for a warboss than da Killa Klaw.

For admech though, yea, we're a victim of early codex syndrome when it comes to the power of our relics. Like 4 or 5 different melee relics for our WS3+ Dominus who want nothing to do with CC...

Agamembar wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Kinda a bummer if there's no relics (which there don't seem to be), given how garbage the existing relics are.

It seems weird that a faction literally built on having the weirdest, wackiest technology has relics that are total junk compared to most other factions in the game. You would think in the 10,000 years Cawl spent making better Space Marines, he woulda cooked up a few nice little toys for himself and his boys too...

I know we used to have a pistol or taser goad that could shunt stuff into parallel dimenstions if you rolled well which was instant death for whatever model was the target. Those where the days!

Skitarii can't take Relics right now. It was not until we saw the Space Marine Supplements that we started getting non-character relics again. The Omniscient Mask, Phosphoenix, and Skull of Elder Nikola? Those all were Skitarii Relics--they weren't intended for characters that sit in the back. The Omnissiah's Hand(Stygies Relic) is arguably a revamp of the Pater Radium.
The rest of the generics are Cult Mechanicus relics, and they were able to be taken by characters and Datasmiths who were part of a Kastelan unit.

It was a huuuuuuuuuuuge difference with regards to how things worked.

If we get, say, "Cohorts of the Forge Worlds" opening up Skitarii Princeps and Alphas as being able to take relics? It would be a big game changer.

And for Admech you'd think we'd have an unusual number of relics...because..yaknow...we probably made most of the ones the imperium uses anyway lol.

Biggest Boss is cool but i was seriously hoping for a meat blender relic for my boss. Crapton of S5(6) AP1 attacks...mostly for something different. I mostly vehicle spam anyway so the kustom jobs sate me for the most part.

Most of the ones the Imperium would use are the kinds of things that we just take for granted.

I guess they took them for granted so long they forgot where they put them. Bunch of techpriests are going through all the forge worlds right now checking the fridges and microwaves for their favorite doomray.

A Skitarii Cohort Commander developed a way to counter Tyrannic swarms, but it's lost in the foundations of some grenade factory....things happen.

Ouch...

If that's true.. 80 for the archaeopter, which will very likely not even be expensive points wise. Welp back to converting again..

It's not like I am surprised. Still... any "power gaming" or trying these units competitively is out of a question for my wallet. Maximizing the output and building around them will most likely require buying 2-3 full squads. The same about the Flier, I doubt they will be resilient and efficient enough as a single model appearance.

Guess I'll treat them as a fluff/collectors purchases for now, buying boxes across months to come.

 dadamowsky wrote:
It's not like I am surprised. Still... any "power gaming" or trying these units competitively is out of a question for my wallet. Maximizing the output and building around them will most likely require buying 2-3 full squads. The same about the Flier, I doubt they will be resilient and efficient enough as a single model appearance.

Guess I'll treat them as a fluff/collectors purchases for now, buying boxes across months to come.

I feel the same, I figure after a few months I'll have enough for the 'competitive build' number of them but will get them to add to the collection.
Will it be another Fulgurite electro-priest situation were the made the rules amazing for them or the Stygies Strat Dragoon charge and everyone one went to town buying them, I wouldn't put it past GW.

oooff....basically 100USD for me.
At that price im tempted to not get one. Thats just absurd. It tops the Stormraven and i'd be shocked if its even remotely as expensive point-wise

If the prices really are that high I might only buy 1 box of the cavalry, as I like them the most and convert the rest. My army is full ov conversions already and a bit on the grim side.
With that in mind I have made this post for alternative models from GW so I can still play at my local store and would like to collect some opinions first.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/788667.page#10808426

Any investment bankers or CEO’s want to sponsor my 9 Stygies flier list

They're raising the point values on vehicles in 9th, gotta raise the price on the new kits too to keep the profit per point similar. Vehicles were already more points to dollar efficient than infantry most of the time. There's nothing GW dislikes more than giving people a break on prices.

I wonder if they have done any price discrimination studies. Because they probably lose more money in the long run if a unit becomes a one-of or two-of instead of a three-of.

@yukishiro1

What makes you think they are raising the points on vehicles.

I’m not suggesting you are incorrect (they may well do) but when did they confirm that was the case? I think I missed that reveal


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Suzuteo wrote:
I wonder if they have done any price discrimination studies. Because they probably lose more money in the long run if a unit becomes a one-of or two-of instead of a three-of.

It’s a bit like the steam sales for pc games. I know I wouldn’t buy any games ever but when it’s dirt cheap I end up spending loads. If it’s cheap enough I’ll go nuts

Anyhow, if if the Copter is not cheap, either in money or point terms, I do not see why I should not just buy a fourth Boat with that new Start Collecting set and exploit whatever goodies Psychic Awakening is giving us in terms of new traits. As I have said before, Boatspam is definitely the strongest option we have by far right now. It's not even close.

Unless PA and 9th hit and it gets nerfed into smithereens...
I just got my 3rd grator/2nd higgins.
Waiiit for it... waiiiiiiiiiiit for it... anytime soon...

 Ideasweasel wrote:
@yukishiro1

What makes you think they are raising the points on vehicles.

I’m not suggesting you are incorrect (they may well do) but when did they confirm that was the case? I think I missed that reveal


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Suzuteo wrote:
I wonder if they have done any price discrimination studies. Because they probably lose more money in the long run if a unit becomes a one-of or two-of instead of a three-of.

It’s a bit like the steam sales for pc games. I know I wouldn’t buy any games ever but when it’s dirt cheap I end up spending loads. If it’s cheap enough I’ll go nuts

It was in the stream announcing 9th edition. I mean, they didn't explicitly say points costs were going up - but when mentioning all the new rules to make tanks better, they also said "and of course that will result in changing the points values as well in light of the new rules." I don't think it's too much of an assumption to think "we're making tanks more powerful and changing their points values" means "we're making tanks more powerful and raising their points values."

Ah, thanks. I completely missed that. My missus says I only hear what I want to hear. Haha maybe there is some truth in that

i would expect most things to change in points, some only a couple of points others quite drastically.
The terrain overhaul could also affect point changes.

New article just went up. Highlights:

Custom traits:


Serberys:


Archaeopter:

Those are some gooooood rules so far

so the new warlord trait is basically an auto-include now?

the flyer disabling auras vs reducing damage by 1 is a hard choice.

The mars canticle being POTMS seems a bit strange considering most of our heavy guns already ignore the penalty. It might make non ryza plasmaphron viable tho?

the new dogmas are meh, im eager to get more details.

holy....servants...of mars...

Dude, dakkabots with Cawl rerolls AND S7 AND can move freely? Holy....freaking crap...
And if im not reading this wrong, exploding 6s.

So what is an affected unit for the Mars Dogma? Because if they have S7 Heavy Phosphor Blasters and the robots ignore moving penalties ... their Destroyer's plasma cannons are S8-S9, their Belleros energy cannon would be S7, would that mean S5 heavy stubbers then wowee.

I am doubtful the custom forge world traits will be even an option if you want to play competitively based on Sygies and Mars so far.

The Skystalkers strat is good. Finally we get something like that.

The flyer better have some better rules than what they previewed for that damn price tag. I was dead set on getting one for the model alone until I saw the price. Not sure I can swallow that pill.

Stygies and Mars get a unique Canticle, not new Dogmas.

Yeah the copter strat is probably the least interesting bit. Shutting off auras is cool but the timing and range....it wont do anything outside force the enemy to move. Which would be amusing in some situations, overall not that great.
Pretty much everything else im bug-eye'd at.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Stygies and Mars get a unique Canticle, not new Dogmas.

Haha good catch. My excitement got the better of me.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Yeah the copter strat is probably the least interesting bit. Shutting off auras is cool but the timing and range....it wont do anything outside force the enemy to move. Which would be amusing in some situations, overall not that great.
Pretty much everything else im bug-eye'd at.

Now that you mention it... They can just move out 6" xd... wait no, it disables the aura until the start of you next turn, so everything is well

No it says "whilst within" so they can totally just move out of it.

So literally its a force-move strat, as unless it was only negating a couple minor auras your opponent WILL move out of that 6" bubble.

Also now that i think about it, it needs a clarification. Is it shutting down the Character aura, or the aura affecting a unit? As in, do i need the character in 6" or just the unit the character is trying to buff? Big difference.

edit: WAIT A MINUTE NEVERMIND i see its strength. This triggers at your movement phase, meaning you can fire before they move out of it. It shuts down defensive auras like nobody's business. Oh crap Ork players are gonna HATE this thing (it shuts down KFF and Painboy auras)
Wouldnt this also technically disable Tyranid Synapse? rofl....oh man this is gonna get nerfed now that i think about it it just has to get nerfed.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
No it says "whilst within" so they can totally just move out of it.

So literally its a force-move strat, as unless it was only negating a couple minor auras your opponent WILL move out of that 6" bubble.

Also now that i think about it, it needs a clarification. Is it shutting down the Character aura, or the aura affecting a unit? As in, do i need the character in 6" or just the unit the character is trying to buff? Big difference.

edit: WAIT A MINUTE NEVERMIND i see its strength. This triggers at your movement phase, meaning you can fire before they move out of it. It shuts down defensive auras like nobody's business. Oh crap Ork players are gonna HATE this thing (it shuts down KFF and Painboy auras)
Wouldnt this also technically disable Tyranid Synapse? rofl....oh man this is gonna get nerfed now that i think about it it just has to get nerfed.

Nah it won't get nerfed. THe night lords have the same effect, except it targets one unit and has an 18" range but they pay 2 cp BUT, its not locked to a single type of model with a specific gear, it works on any night lords model (even heldrakes)

and yes, it does disable synapse, savior protocols, for the greater good, captain rerolls etc.

Yeah it can shut down synapse, the new kff big mek, +1 invun warlord trait from sisters, mass rerolls during an overwatch where you really want to get it, -1 to wound from a shadowseer, anything that gives out a FNP. Its strong when you use it offensively, but trying to stop aura in your opponents turn, not so much when they can just move.

You use it during your turn for shooting and melee

i'll be honest, that with the pricetag alone makes me kinda not wanna get one now.
Why? Its GOING to be shot first and its so wide have fun hiding it. Basically never gonna get use out of it other than bullet-sponge lol.

Plus i dont play in a hyper competitive area anyway

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i'll be honest, that with the pricetag alone makes me kinda not wanna get one now.
Why? Its GOING to be shot first and its so wide have fun hiding it. Basically never gonna get use out of it other than bullet-sponge lol.

Plus i dont play in a hyper competitive area anyway

yeah but you can model it without a flying stand so hiding it behind ruins should be doable. Still, 120CAD for a plane is gonna suck. I'm probably gonna get mine from an alternate source honestly.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i'll be honest, that with the pricetag alone makes me kinda not wanna get one now.
Why? Its GOING to be shot first and its so wide have fun hiding it. Basically never gonna get use out of it other than bullet-sponge lol.

Plus i dont play in a hyper competitive area anyway

yeah but you can model it without a flying stand so hiding it behind ruins should be doable. Still, 120CAD for a plane is gonna suck. I'm probably gonna get mine from an alternate source honestly.

I imagine hardly any TO will allow to play it that way. None in my area would at least, and neither would I want to anyway... Besides the plane gets -1D wargear, maybe -1 to hit from Airborne, and Stygies on top, so it's not like cheesing the stand is so essential.

 dadamowsky wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i'll be honest, that with the pricetag alone makes me kinda not wanna get one now.
Why? Its GOING to be shot first and its so wide have fun hiding it. Basically never gonna get use out of it other than bullet-sponge lol.

Plus i dont play in a hyper competitive area anyway

yeah but you can model it without a flying stand so hiding it behind ruins should be doable. Still, 120CAD for a plane is gonna suck. I'm probably gonna get mine from an alternate source honestly.

I imagine hardly any TO will allow to play it that way. None in my area would at least, and neither would I want to anyway... Besides the plane gets -1D wargear, maybe -1 to hit from Airborne, and Stygies on top, so it's not like cheesing the stand is so essential.

Put it in strategic reserve and fly it on at a later turn? You have to think more about it in 9th ed terms than 8th, and though we know little, we do know terrain is changing and we are getting strategic reserve

 dadamowsky wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i'll be honest, that with the pricetag alone makes me kinda not wanna get one now.
Why? Its GOING to be shot first and its so wide have fun hiding it. Basically never gonna get use out of it other than bullet-sponge lol.

Plus i dont play in a hyper competitive area anyway

yeah but you can model it without a flying stand so hiding it behind ruins should be doable. Still, 120CAD for a plane is gonna suck. I'm probably gonna get mine from an alternate source honestly.

I imagine hardly any TO will allow to play it that way. None in my area would at least, and neither would I want to anyway... Besides the plane gets -1D wargear, maybe -1 to hit from Airborne, and Stygies on top, so it's not like cheesing the stand is so essential.

A TO can't prevent you from playing a model that you assembled following the isntructions that come in the box would they? Because GW said that you had the build instruction to built it airborne or landed.

They do it all the time for base sizes so i dont see why they wouldnt for the flier being on a stand or not.

GW says you may use whatever base your model actually came with and whenever it changes you dont have to rebase. Yet tournaments typically require you to rebase anyway.

I can't imagine anyone allowing it to be modeled as 'landed' when it's meant to be airborne, unless you go out of your way to ensure that you have some kind of modeled bit for where it should be while flying around.

The landed build is meant for dioramas and the like.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 dadamowsky wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i'll be honest, that with the pricetag alone makes me kinda not wanna get one now.
Why? Its GOING to be shot first and its so wide have fun hiding it. Basically never gonna get use out of it other than bullet-sponge lol.

Plus i dont play in a hyper competitive area anyway

yeah but you can model it without a flying stand so hiding it behind ruins should be doable. Still, 120CAD for a plane is gonna suck. I'm probably gonna get mine from an alternate source honestly.

I imagine hardly any TO will allow to play it that way. None in my area would at least, and neither would I want to anyway... Besides the plane gets -1D wargear, maybe -1 to hit from Airborne, and Stygies on top, so it's not like cheesing the stand is so essential.

A TO can't prevent you from playing a model that you assembled following the isntructions that come in the box would they? Because GW said that you had the build instruction to built it airborne or landed.

Yes they can. "All Fliers have to be put on the appropiate stand; no modelling for advantage is allowed" is actually pretty common in the rules packs I've seen. WTC might have it put in their actual FAQ, I'd have to check to be sure, but I am heck damn certain none of my local TOs (and they are working in/with WTC as well) would ever allow such practice. Besides it's not very sporty in the first place...

I'm confused. How would new Canticles work? Especially for Mars that needs you to roll for it. Would it replace an existing Canticle or be an alternative you can always select?

 shamroll wrote:
I'm confused. How would new Canticles work? Especially for Mars that needs you to roll for it. Would it replace an existing Canticle or be an alternative you can always select?

We'll find out when the book drops?

In all likelihood, since there's a whole section on Canticles it likely states how they work there.

 Kanluwen wrote:
New article just went up. Highlights:

Spoiler:

Custom traits:

Spoiler:

Serberys:

Spoiler:

Archaeopter:

Spoiler:

Mars gets the movement ability and stygies gets fall back and shoot armywide, what exactly is the point of Metalica again? It wouldn't be quite as insulting if GW hadn't used Metalica for the article thumbnail I really wish they would address the FW traits, but FW specific canticles is a start I guess. Not entirely sure what the move and shoot for mars helps with. Only units I can think of that take heavy penalties are ironstriders, kastelans, and regular servitors with heavy weapons. Even kataphrons ignore heavy penalties. Maybe the new plane suffers them, which if so is gonna suck. The stygies one on the other hand is pretty powerful in a pinch, although not one you'll probably use often.

The rules all seem really solid so far, I just hope they give us ways to run FW's other than mars and stygies without feeling like we're deliberately gimping ourselves. I wouldn't be surprised though if the custom FW traits can be used to just take outright better versions of stuff like Metalica, graia, agrippina, etc.

I will also admit I'm pleasantly surprised to be wrong about the ranger cavalry, looks like they get to be snipers after all. I like that all their weapons get the ability, now just to see if they have weapons worth using to sniper characters with. The plane has some solid stuff too but it is a shame it doesn't have a broad-spectrum datatether for the +2 to hit, that would've been nice on the gunship.

Also, divinations of the magos is excellent. The other ones are going to have to be very good to compete with the flexibility that one provides

 dadamowsky wrote:

Yes they can. "All Fliers have to be put on the appropiate stand; no modelling for advantage is allowed" is actually pretty common in the rules packs I've seen. WTC might have it put in their actual FAQ, I'd have to check to be sure, but I am heck damn certain none of my local TOs (and they are working in/with WTC as well) would ever allow such practice. Besides it's not very sporty in the first place...

Yeah but if the official building instructions include an option to build it landed (presumably on the oval base but with no stand) then youre not modeling for advantage, you're following GW's OFFICIAL build option.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 shamroll wrote:
I'm confused. How would new Canticles work? Especially for Mars that needs you to roll for it. Would it replace an existing Canticle or be an alternative you can always select?

We'll find out when the book drops?

In all likelihood, since there's a whole section on Canticles it likely states how they work there.

Please replace litany of the electromancer, please replace litany of the electromancer, please replace litany of the electromancer...

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 shamroll wrote:
I'm confused. How would new Canticles work? Especially for Mars that needs you to roll for it. Would it replace an existing Canticle or be an alternative you can always select?

We'll find out when the book drops?

In all likelihood, since there's a whole section on Canticles it likely states how they work there.

Please replace litany of the electromancer, please replace litany of the electromancer, please replace litany of the electromancer...

my guess is that we can chose to replace whichever canticle we want by the forgeworld-specific one. Or we have the option to roll on the normal table OR pick the forgeworld one

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 dadamowsky wrote:

Yes they can. "All Fliers have to be put on the appropiate stand; no modelling for advantage is allowed" is actually pretty common in the rules packs I've seen. WTC might have it put in their actual FAQ, I'd have to check to be sure, but I am heck damn certain none of my local TOs (and they are working in/with WTC as well) would ever allow such practice. Besides it's not very sporty in the first place...

Yeah but if the official building instructions include an option to build it landed (presumably on the oval base but with no stand) then youre not modeling for advantage, you're following GW's OFFICIAL build option.

Which will still be overwritten by TO/judges ruling, event's rulespack and whatnot

Turning off those stupid 12" anti deepstrike bubbles might be good fun. Especially if that's the enemy's only screen or if they were counting on 12" in any direction from the infiltrators. Could open up a DZ for a drill or teleport.

Also, yeah, forcing Nids to lose synapse or GSC to lose fearless is freaking hilarious.

RogueApiary wrote:
Turning off those stupid 12" anti deepstrike bubbles might be good fun. Especially if that's the enemy's only screen or if they were counting on 12" in any direction from the infiltrators. Could open up a DZ for a drill or teleport.

Also, yeah, forcing Nids to lose synapse or GSC to lose fearless is freaking hilarious.

Wouldn't it be difficult to shut down synapse? I thought a lot nid models give it out now? Is it common for nids to only run a few synapse creatures or something?

The aura disabling strat seems unclear and badly worded (the grammar is also wrong, they forgot an apostrophe, but I admit that's petty). Are they trying to say that it creates a 6" null aura but for auras, or are they saying that you have to be within 6" of the unit that projects the aura, and, if you are, that aura is totally shut down, even if it's bigger than 6"?

Either way, it'll also have very weird interactions with multi-model units. Correct me if I'm wrong, but RAW this seems to say it operates model by model, meaning you're going to have weird situations where half a unit is impacted by the aura suppression but not the other half, with the potential for strange, hard-to-predict results.

I'm pretty torn on Divinations of the Magos. I never see a situation where you have assault units within 6" of your Warlord when they charge. All of our assault units operate independently, with different movement profiles than any of our characters.

If you're using your Warlord to buff a castle, you'll very rarely use Predator Programming. So then the question is whether Overlord Safeguards is better than Cawl? Maybe, maybe not?

The one situation I see Divinations of the Magos being worth its salt is on a Manipulus pushing a horde of Vanguard up the mid field, since you'll use two modes regularly. I just don't know if that's actually any good.

I guess the big advantage all the new rules have is the old stuff is mostly such utter garbage they can't help but seem reasonable.

yukishiro1 wrote:
The aura disabling strat seems unclear and badly worded (the grammar is also wrong, they forgot an apostrophe, but I admit that's petty). Are they trying to say that it creates a 6" null aura but for auras, or are they saying that you have to be within 6" of the unit that projects the aura, and, if you are, that aura is totally shut down, even if it's bigger than 6"?

Either way, it'll also have very weird interactions with multi-model units. Correct me if I'm wrong, but RAW this seems to say it operates model by model, meaning you're going to have weird situations where half a unit is impacted by the aura suppression but not the other half, with the potential for strange, hard-to-predict results.

Yes, it seems it operates on the model-by-model basis. It wouldn't be the first case - the cover bonus is rolled and acquired separately if only a part of a defending unit is in the terrain feature for instance.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

RogueApiary wrote:
Turning off those stupid 12" anti deepstrike bubbles might be good fun. Especially if that's the enemy's only screen or if they were counting on 12" in any direction from the infiltrators. Could open up a DZ for a drill or teleport.

Also, yeah, forcing Nids to lose synapse or GSC to lose fearless is freaking hilarious.

Wouldn't it be difficult to shut down synapse? I thought a lot nid models give it out now? Is it common for nids to only run a few synapse creatures or something?

Well, yes and no. Synapse primarily comes from HQs, but warriors, maleceptors, zoanthropes, and Sporocysts also give it. Some, HQs like old one eye, don't provide synapse. More importantly, there's usually only one synapse bug by the gunline bugs in the back, which means you either a) force a second HQ/expensive unit to babysit b) give a -1 to hit to every gun bug in their backline that turn c) force every gun bug to target the copter if they don't want to take the -1 penalty.

Also, super bonus points if you tag the malanthrope, turning off the -1 to hit for the 120+ Termagants they octopus chained back to him.

No, but I don't think we've ever had a situation before where auras that effect entire units can be limited to instead work on a model-by-model basis. I haven't thought through all the consequences, but I suspect there are going to be some that are extremely strange and even possibly game-breaking (in a rule sense, not a power sense - i.e. that require you to do things the game rules don't actually allow).

For example, Zeraphim have an optional upgrade that gives rerolls to units within 6". Assuming the strat is meant to work by disabling an aura completely if you are within 6" of the model giving the aura (not that it shuts off the effects of auras hitting models within 6"), how does this interact with the strat if you cover 2 of the 5 models in your 6" bubble? It's the unit that has the aura, not any individual model. Do we pretend like each individual model is giving the aura, so we turn off the aura for 2 of the 5 models, but the aura continues projecting for the other 3, so any other unit within 6" of those other 3 gets full rerolls? Or does it not shut off the aura at all, because the unit is still projecting it from the other 3 models, and that means you can measure to any of the models in the entire unit, even those that fall within the 6" bubble whose own auras are disabled, because the aura says within 6" of the unit, not of any model in the unit with the ability?

 DarkHound wrote:
I'm pretty torn on Divinations of the Magos. I never see a situation where you have assault units within 6" of your Warlord when they charge. All of our assault units operate independently, with different movement profiles than any of our characters.

If you're using your Warlord to buff a castle, you'll very rarely use Predator Programming. So then the question is whether Overlord Safeguards is better than Cawl? Maybe, maybe not?

The one situation I see Divinations of the Magos being worth its salt is on a Manipulus pushing a horde of Vanguard up the mid field, since you'll use two modes regularly. I just don't know if that's actually any good.

I guess the big advantage all the new rules have is the old stuff is mostly such utter garbage they can't help but seem reasonable.

Aww, do you think Cawl would be exempt from this?

I was getting excited at Cawls Bots with WOM and Tesla

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
New article just went up. Highlights:

Spoiler:

Custom traits:

Spoiler:

Serberys:

Spoiler:

Archaeopter:

Spoiler:

Mars gets the movement ability and stygies gets fall back and shoot armywide, what exactly is the point of Metalica again? It wouldn't be quite as insulting if GW hadn't used Metalica for the article thumbnail I really wish they would address the FW traits, but FW specific canticles is a start I guess. Not entirely sure what the move and shoot for mars helps with. Only units I can think of that take heavy penalties are ironstriders, kastelans, and regular servitors with heavy weapons. Even kataphrons ignore heavy penalties. Maybe the new plane suffers them, which if so is gonna suck. The stygies one on the other hand is pretty powerful in a pinch, although not one you'll probably use often.

The rules all seem really solid so far, I just hope they give us ways to run FW's other than mars and stygies without feeling like we're deliberately gimping ourselves. I wouldn't be surprised though if the custom FW traits can be used to just take outright better versions of stuff like Metalica, graia, agrippina, etc.

I will also admit I'm pleasantly surprised to be wrong about the ranger cavalry, looks like they get to be snipers after all. I like that all their weapons get the ability, now just to see if they have weapons worth using to sniper characters with. The plane has some solid stuff too but it is a shame it doesn't have a broad-spectrum datatether for the +2 to hit, that would've been nice on the gunship.

Also, divinations of the magos is excellent. The other ones are going to have to be very good to compete with the flexibility that one provides

I mean it isn't like Metalica was worth anything to begin with. I wouldn't think too hard on it.

P.S. Those Holy Order buffs are amazing, and I dunno why it would matter whether Cawl gets them or not. Cawl doesn't have to be your warlord. You can take Cawl and a Dominus (or even an Enginseer) and make the Dominus/Enginseer the warlord and get the benefit of both.

The biggest thing isn't the ranged buff though IMO, it's that Ad Mech now has reroll charges, something it completely lacked before. This has a huge impact of the viability of Ad Mech combat units, and it was one of the main things holding them back previously.

yukishiro1 wrote:
No, but I don't think we've ever had a situation before where auras that effect entire units can be limited to instead work on a model-by-model basis. I haven't thought through all the consequences, but I suspect there are going to be some that are extremely strange and even possibly game-breaking (in a rule sense, not a power sense - i.e. that require you to do things the game rules don't actually allow).

For example, Zeraphim have an optional upgrade that gives rerolls to units within 6". Assuming the strat is meant to work by disabling an aura completely if you are within 6" of the model giving the aura (not that it shuts off the effects of auras hitting models within 6"), how does this interact with the strat if you cover 2 of the 5 models in your 6" bubble? It's the unit that has the aura, not any individual model. Do we pretend like each individual model is giving the aura, so we turn off the aura for 2 of the 5 models, but the aura continues projecting for the other 3, so any other unit within 6" of those other 3 gets full rerolls? Or does it not shut off the aura at all, because the unit is still projecting it from the other 3 models, and that means you can measure to any of the models in the entire unit, even those that fall within the 6" bubble whose own auras are disabled, because the aura says within 6" of the unit, not of any model in the unit with the ability?

To my understanding, the stratagem disables not auras abilities as such, but effect of the auras. So, as long as enemy model is within SoB unit to qualify for receiving the aura, and not withing Archaeopter stratagem to be denied the effect, the aura is still working. Even if the aura "giver" is withing 6" from the plane.

I think it's ambiguous. But that interpretation - that it works on stuff receiving an aura, not stuff projecting an aura - is even more problematic for how it interacts with the rules. That would mean that some models in a given unit would have reroll charges and others wouldn't, which breaks the rules of the game because it's not possible. So then you have to decide whether it does nothing - because some models have reroll charges, they all do - or whether it disables the aura's effect on the whole unit - which goes counter to what the stratagem actually says re: working model by model.

Ideasweasel wrote:Aww, do you think Cawl would be exempt from this?

I was getting excited at Cawls Bots with WOM and Tesla

I have no idea what you mean. What's Tesla?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
The rules all seem really solid so far, I just hope they give us ways to run FW's other than mars and stygies without feeling like we're deliberately gimping ourselves. I wouldn't be surprised though if the custom FW traits can be used to just take outright better versions of stuff like Metalica, graia, agrippina, etc.

I mean it isn't like Metalica was worth anything to begin with. I wouldn't think too hard on it.

I think it's sad any time they homogenize factions. All the other subfactions could be good. It's really not like Mars or Stygies are that much better than the other factions, you still ignore their Forgeworld specific Warlord traits and Relics. Each Forgeworld has several junk elements to it, so adding distinguishing features to the lesser Forgeworlds gives them a leg to stand on.

Graia was the bees knees when they worked with Electropriests, all it needs is a horde of good one wound infantry; it's actually got the full package of a good dogma, Warlord trait, Strat, and arguably the best Relic. Metallica would be fine if only there were more Assault weapons to take advantage of moving and shooting, and they already have a great Warlord trait.

By Tesla I mean the extra hits for 6’s

Yuki solved it for me though.

yukishiro1 wrote:
I think it's ambiguous. But that interpretation - that it works on stuff receiving an aura, not stuff projecting an aura - is even more problematic for how it interacts with the rules. That would mean that some models in a given unit would have reroll charges and others wouldn't, which breaks the rules of the game because it's not possible. So then you have to decide whether it does nothing - because some models have reroll charges, they all do - or whether it disables the aura's effect on the whole unit - which goes counter to what the stratagem actually says re: working model by model.

That would be problematic. If I were to judge I'd say you can't reroll the charge in that instance as it is not possible to charge with only part of your unit. But I admit it requires FAQ

yukishiro1 wrote:
The biggest thing isn't the ranged buff though IMO, it's that Ad Mech now has reroll charges, something it completely lacked before. This has a huge impact of the viability of Ad Mech combat units, and it was one of the main things holding them back previously.

I'm genuinely interested in how you plan to get a character within 6" of a pack of Dragoons or Infiltrators when they roll to Charge. It doesn't apply to Secutarii. I guess you can improve the charge of Electropriests and maybe Ruststalkers? It doesn't strike me as game changing just because we haven't had it before.

I do it with a Manip alot, though they can very easily leave him in the dirt if his advance rolled like crap.
Usually if i have dragoons i got a Manip around with the mask relic for rerolls in melee. I would never make him the warlord though so moot point.

 DarkHound wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
The biggest thing isn't the ranged buff though IMO, it's that Ad Mech now has reroll charges, something it completely lacked before. This has a huge impact of the viability of Ad Mech combat units, and it was one of the main things holding them back previously.

I'm genuinely interested in how you plan to get a character within 6" of a pack of Dragoons or Infiltrators when they roll to Charge. It doesn't apply to Secutarii. I guess you can improve the charge of Electropriests and maybe Ruststalkers? It doesn't strike me as game changing just because we haven't had it before.

Stygies, Lucius or Drill . This WLT does not seem to require Warlord to be on the table to activate it

Auras generally affect the entire unit if it doesnt say "wholly within" so technically if the copter stops the effect of the aura, rather than the aura source, there wouldnt be a broken half-affected half-not affected problem. The stratagem itself is an aura (which begs another question of what happens when admech vs admech do this to each other lol)

 DarkHound wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
The biggest thing isn't the ranged buff though IMO, it's that Ad Mech now has reroll charges, something it completely lacked before. This has a huge impact of the viability of Ad Mech combat units, and it was one of the main things holding them back previously.

I'm genuinely interested in how you plan to get a character within 6" of a pack of Dragoons or Infiltrators when they roll to Charge. It doesn't apply to Secutarii. I guess you can improve the charge of Electropriests and maybe Ruststalkers? It doesn't strike me as game changing just because we haven't had it before.

Anything in a drill with your warlord - though why you'd take anything besides priests I dunno since they're so much better than the other options. You could also be Lucius and DS your warlord for 1CP then pop him down with your naturally DS units if you wanted.

The big draw-back of this strategy previously was that you have no realistic way to make the charge, either with your priests or with your drill, so they just sit there for a turn (probably still in the drill, which probably dies). Even with reroll charges it isn't reliable unless there's a way to get a +1 to charge in there too, but your chances are a lot better that can you hit that 9 inch charge with at least the drill OR the unit, if not both.

But even if you're starting stuff on the table, conga-lining back to auras is a core part of the gameplay of most combat factions.

This doesn't work with stuff like chaplains because you only get to roll for auras if you're on the board. But I don't see anything in these rules which says you can only pick your ability if you're on the board at the start of the turn. It says to add the rule to your datasheet until the end of the turn - a strange wording which would work whether the model is on the table at the start of the turn or not.


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 Vineheart01 wrote:
Auras generally affect the entire unit if it doesnt say "wholly within" so technically if the copter stops the effect of the aura, rather than the aura source, there wouldnt be a broken half-affected half-not affected problem. The stratagem itself is an aura (which begs another question of what happens when admech vs admech do this to each other lol)

Are you saying that this would result in the strat doing nothing if the 6" bubble doesn't fully cover the unit, for any aura that effects the whole unit? Take the re-roll charges, for example. The copter would have to cover the whole unit to stop the unit from getting re-roll charges? Or that it would stop the reroll charges as long as it hits a single model? Either way, do you first measure model-by-model to make sure that something in the unit that isn't within 6" of the copter is close enough to get the aura? I can see all these arguments being made based on the wording. It seems really unclear, and super clunky no matter how you rule it.

 DarkHound wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
The biggest thing isn't the ranged buff though IMO, it's that Ad Mech now has reroll charges, something it completely lacked before. This has a huge impact of the viability of Ad Mech combat units, and it was one of the main things holding them back previously.

I'm genuinely interested in how you plan to get a character within 6" of a pack of Dragoons or Infiltrators when they roll to Charge. It doesn't apply to Secutarii. I guess you can improve the charge of Electropriests and maybe Ruststalkers? It doesn't strike me as game changing just because we haven't had it before.

with dragoons its super easy. infiltrate the dragoons and the manipulus. move everything up the field and space the dragoons as far as possible so that at least 1 is within 6" of the manipulus. since they have huge bases and 2 rows can fight at the same time, they can easily all join combat even if one was trailing behind.

Same thing with electropriests except you slingshot them from a transport.
you only need 1 model within 6".

I see that there are literally ways to do it, but it seems like throwing good money after bad. If you're only buffing a single unit, as soon as you spend a CP on it then you might as well have just used a command re-roll instead. If you're taking a lot of assault units to justify the investment, then it really feels like you're not playing to the army's strengths.

99% sure it's turn off an aura ability generated by a model not turn off an aura ability received by one.

In the case of the a unit like, say infiltrators, you just measure the anti deepstrike bubble from models outside of 6" of the copter. Ideally, you ram the thing into the center of the 5 man squad and don't need to worry about it.

 DarkHound wrote:

Ideasweasel wrote:Aww, do you think Cawl would be exempt from this?

I was getting excited at Cawls Bots with WOM and Tesla

I have no idea what you mean. What's Tesla?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
The rules all seem really solid so far, I just hope they give us ways to run FW's other than mars and stygies without feeling like we're deliberately gimping ourselves. I wouldn't be surprised though if the custom FW traits can be used to just take outright better versions of stuff like Metalica, graia, agrippina, etc.

I mean it isn't like Metalica was worth anything to begin with. I wouldn't think too hard on it.

I think it's sad any time they homogenize factions. All the other subfactions could be good. It's really not like Mars or Stygies are that much better than the other factions, you still ignore their Forgeworld specific Warlord traits and Relics. Each Forgeworld has several junk elements to it, so adding distinguishing features to the lesser Forgeworlds gives them a leg to stand on.

Graia was the bees knees when they worked with Electropriests, all it needs is a horde of good one wound infantry; it's actually got the full package of a good dogma, Warlord trait, Strat, and arguably the best Relic. Metallica would be fine if only there were more Assault weapons to take advantage of moving and shooting, and they already have a great Warlord trait.

Mars Warlord Trait is actually REALLY good though and adds lots of flexibility to the deployment of your Warlord.

 DarkHound wrote:
I see that there are literally ways to do it, but it seems like throwing good money after bad. If you're only buffing a single unit, as soon as you spend a CP on it then you might as well have just used a command re-roll instead. If you're taking a lot of assault units to justify the investment, then it really feels like you're not playing to the army's strengths.

A command re-roll doesn't help if you roll, say, double 2s.

And there's no need to spend a CP on it. The primary use is going to be with the tried and true "drill full of priests" combo. That doesn't cost you CP, and both the drill and the priests benefit from the reroll (you can charge in your warlord too if you really want to, though usually you won't).

Priests and drills are two of the best units in the army, so it really isn't going against the army's strengths. Priests in particular are a fantastic combat unit, and the primary problem with them has always been getting them into combat. Reroll charges goes a long way towards mitigating that. A prime hermeticon manipulus with reroll charges addresses most of their issues and makes them truly viable IMO.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

RogueApiary wrote:
99% sure it's turn off an aura ability generated by a model not turn off an aura ability received by one.

That's how I'd read it too. The bad grammar is actually unfortunate here - if the apostrophe was there as it should be, it would make it clearer that it's talking about disabling auras the model generates, not models receiving an aura.

This produces less issues, though there will still be some. I would be surprised if there aren't at least a few multi-model units with aura effects that produce really ambiguous or problematic results when you start shutting them down on a model-by-model basis.

Okay, that's fair. It's pretty narrow application, but a meaningful one. You can't have Prime Hermeticon, though, and unfortunately the Omniscient Mask only affects Skitarii units. I guess you can Canticle for re-roll 1's in close combat since +1S doesn't hit a useful breakpoint for Electropriests.

It's a 339 point package, but at least every element benefits. Plus you can throw the Relic mechadentride nest on the Manipulus and make him really fighty.

yukishiro1 wrote:

 DarkHound wrote:
I see that there are literally ways to do it, but it seems like throwing good money after bad. If you're only buffing a single unit, as soon as you spend a CP on it then you might as well have just used a command re-roll instead. If you're taking a lot of assault units to justify the investment, then it really feels like you're not playing to the army's strengths.

A command re-roll doesn't help if you roll, say, double 2s.

And there's no need to spend a CP on it. The primary use is going to be with the tried and true "drill full of priests" combo. That doesn't cost you CP, and both the drill and the priests benefit from the reroll (you can charge in your warlord too if you really want to, though usually you won't).

Priests and drills are two of the best units in the army, so it really isn't going against the army's strengths. Priests in particular are a fantastic combat unit, and the primary problem with them has always been getting them into combat. Reroll charges goes a long way towards mitigating that. A prime hermeticon manipulus with reroll charges addresses most of their issues and makes them truly viable IMO.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

RogueApiary wrote:
99% sure it's turn off an aura ability generated by a model not turn off an aura ability received by one.

That's how I'd read it too. The bad grammar is actually unfortunate here - if the apostrophe was there as it should be, it would make it clearer that it's talking about disabling auras the model generates, not models receiving an aura.

This produces less issues, though there will still be some. I would be surprised if there aren't at least a few multi-model units with aura effects that produce really ambiguous or problematic results when you start shutting them down on a model-by-model basis.

Yeah but with the drill you dont benefit from the +1 to charge from the manipulus unless he already was on the battlefield.

Depending on other defensive bonuses, the new Radiant Dogma + something else could be a killer combination for Skitarii infantry

Why couldn't you have prime hermeticon? Oh, are you reading it as joining a holy order is choosing a warlord trait, i.e. you either get a normal warlord trait or you join a holy order?

I wasn't reading it that way initially - I was reading it as you get the following benefits, AND there's also an associated warlord trait that you can pick if you want, but don't have to. But maybe you're right, and these are actually replacement warlord traits, not in addition to them.

 DarkHound wrote:
I see that there are literally ways to do it, but it seems like throwing good money after bad. If you're only buffing a single unit, as soon as you spend a CP on it then you might as well have just used a command re-roll instead. If you're taking a lot of assault units to justify the investment, then it really feels like you're not playing to the army's strengths.

I play admech as a hammer and anvil type of army. Most of my lists include a heavy melee component alongside good firepower.

2 boats of fulgurites / dragoons with a manipulus charge in to give my opponent imminent pressure on turn 1.

dunecrawlers and ryzaphrons provide firepower.

skorpii provide mobility to capture objectives.

Might not be the top competitive way to play them but i've had a lot of success locally playing like that.

i'll often pay 3-4 CP for the scout move

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


Yeah but with the drill you dont benefit from the +1 to charge from the manipulus unless he already was on the battlefield.

Definitely. You'd be taking him for the buffs on the turn after you DS in, or for the option to start things on the table (either just him or everything); drills and priests lists are almost always stygies, and you're often choosing between DSing the drills or just starting them on the table and moving them instead.

In any case, it's not like you're gonna take a dominus to be your reroll charge bubble, and an enginseer is an awfully squishy way to deliver key buffs to your combat units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 DarkHound wrote:
I see that there are literally ways to do it, but it seems like throwing good money after bad. If you're only buffing a single unit, as soon as you spend a CP on it then you might as well have just used a command re-roll instead. If you're taking a lot of assault units to justify the investment, then it really feels like you're not playing to the army's strengths.

I play admech as a hammer and anvil type of army. Most of my lists include a heavy melee component alongside good firepower.

2 boats of fulgurites / dragoons with a manipulus charge in to give my opponent imminent pressure on turn 1.

dunecrawlers and ryzaphrons provide firepower.

skorpii provide mobility to capture objectives.

Might not be the top competitive way to play them but i've had a lot of success locally playing like that.

i'll often pay 3-4 CP for the scout move

Charging in T1 isn't necessarily the best way to play that list, but the basic idea is definitely competitive (as competitive as Ad Mech be, anyway).

You might want to watch Richard Siegler's battle report on the AOW twitch channel (it'll be up for 5 more days) where he plays a mixed combat and shooting list competitively by taking the middle of the board and then forcing his opponent to either come in and get smashed by the priests or stay back and lose on points while getting smashed by the ranged firepower. He's arguably the best 40k player in the world right now, and there's a lot to learn from seeing how he plays ad mech.

Right now, Serberys Raiders sound disappointing.
Sniping with Galvanic carbines (how much better can they be compared with bland Galvanic rifles) is weak sauce. Is that all they have to give?
Ok, the sergeant has a decent weapon. That hardly justifies the unit.
Let's assume assault 3 carbines. 9 shots, 6 hits, one mortal wound. Whoa, character-wreking! Oh, plus 3 ap 0 wounds, so powerful.
I hope we are missing something important here.

yukishiro1 wrote:


Charging in T1 isn't necessarily the best way to play that list, but the basic idea is definitely competitive (as competitive as Ad Mech be, anyway).

You might want to watch Richard Siegler's battle report on the AOW twitch channel (it'll be up for 5 more days) where he plays a mixed combat and shooting list competitively by taking the middle of the board and then forcing his opponent to either come in and get smashed by the priests or stay back and lose on points while getting smashed by the ranged firepower. He's arguably the best 40k player in the world right now, and there's a lot to learn from seeing how he plays ad mech.

oh i agree that charging in isnt always the best play. Taking space on the board and forcing my opponent to make decisions as to where he positions himself can be amazing for admech.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DanielFM wrote:
Right now, Serberys Raiders sound disappointing.
Sniping with Galvanic carbines (how much better can they be compared with bland Galvanic rifles) is weak sauce. Is that all they have to give?
Ok, the sergeant has a decent weapon. That hardly justifies the unit.
Let's assume assault 3 carbines. 9 shots, 6 hits, one mortal wound. Whoa, character-wreking! Oh, plus 3 ap 0 wounds, so powerful.
I hope we are missing something important here.

I'll reserve judgment until i see the datasheet. Maybe either the gun or the unit has special rules that were missing.

Wound roll of 6+ causes a mortal and normal damage.

I linked the article. It's right here:

That is on the whole Serberys Raiders unit.

It's the same sniper rule everybody but ad mech pretty much already got. It's not useless by any means, but it's better on cheap units than expensive ones, and I don't see it being all that useful on the Raiders unless they have the option to take a weapon that is actually threatening on its own as well.

I hope they will be Assault 2 24" S4 ap-1 D1

Basically 7th edition galvanic rifles with less range, but more shots

Well Dragoons will take a hit in the new edition, according the twitch QnA today modifiers will be capped at -1 or +1

So the current strats we have to give a +2 hit will be, I assume, re-worded to only allow for the +1.Taser explodes will be a bit less explodey.

I wouldn't be surprised if that's actually an exception to the normal rule, because the strat specifically says it gives +2. I think the rule will probably say "+1 to hit doesn't stack with another +1 to hit, but if a single effect gives a +2 to hit, that is fine."

It's intended to stop people from stacking a bunch of -1s to hit to make something unhittable; I don't think they had strats that actually give a +2 in mind.

yeah theres quite a few +/-2 rules. Blocking all rules from stacking makes sense but making all the +/-2 suddenly +/-1? Completely neuter a lot of units if they didnt make them way cheaper to compensate.

Or it can be left as it is and +2 cases ever be really useful if someone is running -1 trait.

They didn't say it, but I'd also expect changes to how special abilities work - more and more special abilities are capped at unmodified 6. I think that will be much more common in 9th

In the twitch release today modifiers are not going better or worse than +/-1

One more interesting bit from the stream - Monsters are getting the same benefits as tanks. That might mean that shooting out of combat (and other stuff not mentioned) are going to be a general buff for big fat units with Vehicle/Monster keywords, not necessarily "tanks" per se.

 0XFallen wrote:
I hope they will be Assault 2 24" S4 ap-1 D1

Basically 7th edition galvanic rifles with less range, but more shots

Those would be awful snipers and useless in units below 5 models.
I hope you are wrong or they are super cheap

 Vineheart01 wrote:
yeah theres quite a few +/-2 rules. Blocking all rules from stacking makes sense but making all the +/-2 suddenly +/-1? Completely neuter a lot of units if they didnt make them way cheaper to compensate.

Cheaper is quite possible. 9th ed is fairly likely to come up with complete point revisit so would be expecting tons of changes on that front.

Holy Omnissiash. Did the writers of the AdMech rules forget we can give Canticles to Knights?

.....probably because i did for a moment lol...

S7 Avenger Gatling, S9 Battlecannons ftw lol
(theres probably a clause preventing this)

 Vineheart01 wrote:
.....probably because i did for a moment lol...

S7 Avenger Gatling, S9 Battlecannons ftw lol
(theres probably a clause preventing this)

STR 8 Valiant flamer, seigebreakers. Edit: NVM meltas are assault.

Str 8 helverin in a pinch.

So here are my thoughts:

1) Mars Canticle is the biotitan in the room. Combined with the exploding 6s Holy Order WLT, Mars Dakkabots just gained 107% damage output against T6 3+/4++ and 73% against T7 3+/4++. And they can move and shoot with impunity.

Crawlers, Grators, and Boats also get some ridiculous damage improvements. It's weird, but Heavy Stubbers in particular are now seriously threatening against Marines.

Honestly, I am not sure if anything else can compete. I definitely hope so though. You have a bunch of other Forge Worlds and three more Holy Orders.

2) Copters may be a necessary part of our armies if they can shut down auras. Keep in mind that A LOT of armies rely on these auras to pull off charges and to get through melee.

Also, 6" does not sound like much, but consider how large the wingspan is on these things! EDIT: Though that does remind me, but if we build them without the flying stands, do we need to use the base still?

3) A single unit of Skystalkers might be nice to disrupt a gunline, but it doesn't affect Titans, and they are a fragile unit... maybe a pass, especially given we know the Stygies Canticle is not that great. (If they could fall back and shoot without penalty, it would be worth it.)

I don't think any flyers measure from the model as opposed to from the base. So the wingspan isn't directly relevant to the strat.

Mars canticle is weird because it does so much for some stuff and so little for others.

yukishiro1 wrote:
I don't think any flyers measure from the model as opposed to from the base. So the wingspan isn't directly relevant to the strat.

Mars canticle is weird because it does so much for some stuff and so little for others.

Bummer.

Boats have 12x S5 attacks now. LOL.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Why couldn't you have prime hermeticon? Oh, are you reading it as joining a holy order is choosing a warlord trait, i.e. you either get a normal warlord trait or you join a holy order?

I wasn't reading it that way initially - I was reading it as you get the following benefits, AND there's also an associated warlord trait that you can pick if you want, but don't have to. But maybe you're right, and these are actually replacement warlord traits, not in addition to them.

That's how it reads to me, particularly since the Holy Order rule shown specifically refers to the Warlord, just the same as any Warlord trait.

And hah, I can just picture the behind the scenes on designing rules for the comm uplink, since it is a data-tether with a different name: it started as a data-tether, then playtesters were zipping these things into the backfield and character sniping with 2+ RR1s to hit lascannons like I suggested. So, the name was changed to avoid it being the target of PDI, but the playtesters really liked the dynamic of a disruptive flyer so they suggested writing a new ability to mess with enemy characters - so we get the new strat.

If they are replacement warlord traits, it'll be interesting to see if ad mech gets any way to take a 2nd model with a warlord trait and/or take two warlord traits on a single model, the way space marines, sisters and the other new codexes mostly have.

With the +1 str canticle and exploding 6's magos trait. Is the cawl ball back? I'm thinking 10-12 robots with 42" range will cover most of the board with 180-216 str 7 AP-2 shots rerolling everything with a +1 from Daedolus on anything that comes within 24". Wrath of Mars on about half those shots for when something absolutely needs to die.

You can toss in a RG Phobos patrol for two 12" no deepstrike bubbles as well. Maybe keep a couple punchy bots out front with flamers to round it out.

Bots being relevant would make me happy. Been a while since I’ve dusted the old guys off

 Suzuteo wrote:
Holy Omnissiash. Did the writers of the AdMech rules forget we can give Canticles to Knights?

I bet there's a <sub-faction> restriction on who can benefit from this Canticle, so Crusader is unable to pick it up. Knights can be given Canticles of the Omnissiah ability with Knight of the Cog, but they wont be given <sub-faction>. Otherwise these FW specific Canticles wouldn't make sense - you're unlocking them with <mixed> and give to every unit in the detachment

 Ideasweasel wrote:
Bots being relevant would make me happy. Been a while since I’ve dusted the old guys off

Would be nice, but won’t happen if all they get is this new exploding 6s aura and +1S with Machine Spirit canticle. They could already move and shoot without penalty for 1CP, and neither their shotcount nor firepower has ever been lacking.

Hopefully they get the Tank ability to shoot into combat naturally (so Mars bots can do this instead of only Graia), as their main issue is how easily they’re counterplayed through avoidance and overwatch ignoring/dodging charges into being tapped

Pomguo wrote:

 Ideasweasel wrote:
Bots being relevant would make me happy. Been a while since I’ve dusted the old guys off

Would be nice, but won’t happen if all they get is this new exploding 6s aura and +1S with Machine Spirit canticle. They could already move and shoot without penalty for 1CP, and neither their shotcount nor firepower has ever been lacking.

Hopefully they get the Tank ability to shoot into combat naturally (so Mars bots can do this instead of only Graia), as their main issue is how easily they’re counterplayed through avoidance and overwatch ignoring/dodging charges into being tapped

Unless they do an appendix at the back like they are doing for blasts and hordes for what vehicles are tanks, I think it maybe a catch all term for all vehicles to be able to do it, just like it seems all monsters can do it. A carnifex is pretty much a dreadnought/kastellan in terms of stat line, so if that gets it I cant imagine why cant a robot. The canticle will save you atleast 2CP (1 for the specialist detachment and 1 for the strafing fire strat), but we dont really know how much CP we will get at 2k. If its 15-20 that's quite a lot anyway, more than anyone is uses to, if its 12ish then that's pretty much standard for most armies nowadays anyway after pre game CP purchases.

If there is a holy order warlord trait that focuses more on a dominus side of things, so more shooting oriented instead of the one we seen now which has a more multitool approach then we could see admech getting a nice boost in its firepower. We used to be kings of shooting, then we gradually lost that podium with the new marine codex and having a huge weakness to being tapped in combat and being fairly immobile even with our ignore negatives to hit. The Grators helped solve that issue

 Suzuteo wrote:

Also, 6" does not sound like much, but consider how large the wingspan is on these things! EDIT: Though that does remind me, but if we build them without the flying stands, do we need to use the base still?

You measure from model or base if model has unless you have rule saying otherwise. Since chopter has base unless datasheet has specific exception you measure from base. And I can assure you will get accusation of modeling for advantage if you play without base and measure from hull(especially if those wings still fit over enemy infantry).

I mean, wings aren’t hull anyway so would it matter hugely?

I'm currently thinking buy one Archeopter kit then convert 1 or two Stormhawks or Valkyries with the remaining bits. Or maybe a Tau Devilfish as they're super cheap.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/788739.page#10811074

Ive made a thread concerning conversions etc. as this one will be full of rules discussion in the following months.

 dadamowsky wrote:

 Suzuteo wrote:
Holy Omnissiash. Did the writers of the AdMech rules forget we can give Canticles to Knights?

I bet there's a <sub-faction> restriction on who can benefit from this Canticle, so Crusader is unable to pick it up. Knights can be given Canticles of the Omnissiah ability with Knight of the Cog, but they wont be given <sub-faction>. Otherwise these FW specific Canticles wouldn't make sense - you're unlocking them with <mixed> and give to every unit in the detachment

I know. The "affected unit" phrasing just makes it look so suspicious.

tneva82 wrote:

 Suzuteo wrote:

Also, 6" does not sound like much, but consider how large the wingspan is on these things! EDIT: Though that does remind me, but if we build them without the flying stands, do we need to use the base still?

You measure from model or base if model has unless you have rule saying otherwise. Since chopter has base unless datasheet has specific exception you measure from base. And I can assure you will get accusation of modeling for advantage if you play without base and measure from hull(especially if those wings still fit over enemy infantry).

So we will have to wait for the rule book.

And MFA is honestly not a problem if it is explicitly allowed.

It sounds like LOS is getting some changes in 9th, I wouldn't be surprised if part of the reason the kit has multiple ways to assemble it is that it won't matter which you pick for gameplay purposes because of the new rules.

My current theory is that we'll only be able to choose the Forgeworld-specific one not roll for it. That makes gloria mechanics useful, though expensive, but lessens the abuse of powerful canticles. I guess they've learned their lesson with marine doctrines. At least we get to pick when it takes effect, marines has an order to things they can't avoid and there's no way for them to revert to devastator doctrine at all.

I think that theory seems the most likely way it’ll work, and the neatest way it could work, pending some change to the Canticles system as it works right now.

Found via Facebook, no idea of the source but feel free to pull the post if not allow, not excatly the best rules for the price they are charging for it but I guess that might change with 9th

The Transvector can transport SECUTARII, so I'm somewhat excited that they've finally integrated the rules for FW units (unless the leak is a fake).

Those are basically what i was expecting except i wasnt expecting the transport variant to only move 6...uh..who cares? Five priests, ruststalkers, rangers, vanguard, or random characters (not cawl)?
What i was hoping once i saw the pricetag of this thing in real money was it would be somewhat beefy or had some gnarly rule to justify it costing a bit in points. 6-7pl depending on the variant? That is yet another super cheap in points but mega expensive in moneys unit. This thing isnt pricy at all (points)
I am seriously contemplating not getting a single one. The bombing run is neat but that and the stratagem is ALL that draws my attention. But you cant have the command uplink and the chaff flares so this thing will die so, SO fast if you wanna do the aura-killer strat.

beast_gts wrote:
The Transvector can transport SECUTARII, so I'm somewhat excited that they've finally integrated the rules for FW units (unless the leak is a fake).

The Skorpius Dunerider can transport Secutarii, so it's not really news.

Personal take:
It's a bummer it is not the flying Chimera that somebody reported them being, and that I repeated here.
Also, Electropriests don't belong in a Skitarii vehicle.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Those are basically what i was expecting except i wasnt expecting the transport variant to only move 6...uh..who cares? Five priests, ruststalkers, rangers, vanguard, or random characters (not cawl)?
What i was hoping once i saw the pricetag of this thing in real money was it would be somewhat beefy or had some gnarly rule to justify it costing a bit in points. 6-7pl depending on the variant? That is yet another super cheap in points but mega expensive in moneys unit. This thing isnt pricy at all (points)
I am seriously contemplating not getting a single one. The bombing run is neat but that and the stratagem is ALL that draws my attention. But you cant have the command uplink and the chaff flares so this thing will die so, SO fast if you wanna do the aura-killer strat.

I will get one just to have it for my collection but that will be down the road after I see what 9th does to things, I mean the design sketch mentioned a 5 man capacity and then I saw people saying 12 and I guess I got overhyped. Keeping iot alive is going to be worth more effort and CP then is really worth it.

12 was rumored for the transport(Transvector), 6 for the gunship variant(Stratoraptor).

Worth mentioning that Beast bringing up the FW rules bit brings forth another interesting tidbit!
Secutarii Peltasts and Hoplites currently are 10 model minimum units!
I might be getting a little more hyped...as that means we might be seeing some GW Secutarii!

Am i completely blind or does the copter have no innate ignore heavy penalty rule?
So its forcefully hitting at a -1 to hit with all of its guns as it has not even a single non-heavy gun unless you either burn a CP for that vehicle strat to ignore it or use that new canticle for mars.

Might be that Flyers are going to get an innate ignore heavy penalty in the new edition?

but that would mean that until 9th hits this thing is essentially gimped by design.
That would be a weird decision. I guess adding an ability that becomes redundant would be weird also, but at least keep it playable...

It's a pass. I might get one for collection, but that's about it, and I definitely am not ordering this until 9ed hits. Transporting 5 Obsecs + character with a Flier might even be decent for a decent points, but it would need to be 3 vehicles at least... meaning quickly adding up on the oof $$$ price tag leaked...

I just can't justify this purchase. A pity, real pity.

Not to mention that would make the Marine fliers hit on 2s against their "intended" target, since they have a really weird rule that increases their BS against that target instead of decreasing it if its not that target.

Man...the more i look at this thing the less i like it. This feels like an Ork release level of "wtf?" on initial release design lol.

Well maybe the transvector can transport Pteraxxi... that I can see working somewhat.
But at what, probably 1,3$ per point this is rediculous indeed.
And I thought chickens were bad...

 Thairne wrote:
Well maybe the transvector can transport Pteraxxi... that I can see working somewhat.
But at what, probably 1,3$ per point this is rediculous indeed.
And I thought chickens were bad...

What would be the point of transporting a flying unit in a flyer?

 Kanluwen wrote:

beast_gts wrote:
The Transvector can transport SECUTARII, so I'm somewhat excited that they've finally integrated the rules for FW units (unless the leak is a fake).

The Skorpius Dunerider can transport Secutarii, so it's not really news.

Sorry - completely missed that

If those are real, they seem a really weird grab-bag of lots of really good stuff...none of which comes together into a package.

T7 and -1 damage on a flyer? Wow, that sounds awesome! An even better version of the Eldar flyer rule - not only pivot, move, pivot but the second pivot can come anywhere during the move? Awesome!

Until you realize that the gunship configuration hits on 4s on top profile, and therefore struggles to hit anything. Or the transport transports only 6 units, and therefore ends up being an extremely durable and fast way to deliver...nothing worth delivering. And personally, it crushes my soul that it is worded so inquisitors can't use it.

The bomber looks the best of the bunch, especially because it has a hover mode and an effective 180 pivot, meaning there is no way to get away from it, and it has unlimited bombs, so there is no way to stop it except killing it. This makes it better than pretty much any other bomber out there. But even so..I'm not sure it's really that scary. At that point it just comes down to points values. If it's cheap enough, people will take three just as an annoyance.

beast_gts wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

beast_gts wrote:
The Transvector can transport SECUTARII, so I'm somewhat excited that they've finally integrated the rules for FW units (unless the leak is a fake).

The Skorpius Dunerider can transport Secutarii, so it's not really news.

Sorry - completely missed that

It doesn't even matter because a minimum unit size for any Secutarii existing is... 10 models. WTF?! This plane has an ability to transport a unit that doesn't even exist... DD

That's how you know it's probably real. That kind of thing is exactly what the real Games Workshop would do.

Although to be serious, that's obviously a sign the new FW Index will reduce the minimum unit size to 5.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Thairne wrote:
Well maybe the transvector can transport Pteraxxi... that I can see working somewhat.
But at what, probably 1,3$ per point this is rediculous indeed.
And I thought chickens were bad...

What would be the point of transporting a flying unit in a flyer?

Well they have largely short ranged weapons or want to get into melee.
We do not know if they can deep strike so flying 50" into the backline and deploying the next turn can on one hand circumvent some DS screen IF they have it and otherwise deliver them fast and furious so they can get to work.

Dollars to donuts these things were supposed to have the 'Skitarii' keyword on them, given that it's a Pteraxii piloting them.

All of our other non-Knight vehicles have the 'Skitarii' keyword on them, so I think we might be losing that.

Oh. That means you cannot even get it to 3+ with Protector let alone to 2+ if it had a data tether...
*sad archeopter crashy noise

Dead on arrival.

yukishiro1 wrote:
That's how you know it's probably real. That kind of thing is exactly what the real Games Workshop would do.

Although to be serious, that's obviously a sign the new FW Index will reduce the minimum unit size to 5.

Or it's a sign that we might get a Secutarii Axiarch to shut me up.

pfft haha i didnt even notice it lacked Skitarri keyword.
Seriously, this feels like an ork release. Every glance at it yields another 'wait but then this..." leading down another hole of stupidity.
Man this thing is sad....

yukishiro1 wrote:
That's how you know it's probably real. That kind of thing is exactly what the real Games Workshop would do.

Although to be serious, that's obviously a sign the new FW Index will reduce the minimum unit size to 5.

Or there's a new Secutarii unit coming out...

 Vineheart01 wrote:
pfft haha i didnt even notice it lacked Skitarri keyword.
Seriously, this feels like an ork release. Every glance at it yields another 'wait but then this..." leading down another hole of stupidity.
Man this thing is sad....

To be fair?
It might be that this thing's "Command Uplink" allows for it to grant the same Doctrina Imperative effects around it. We haven't seen all the stratagems.
Might also be that there is something regarding synergy for the gunship->bomber operating in tandem.

All of that said, hopefully we'll see the cavalry rules soon...

but a unit that relies ENTIRELY on stratagems to be remotely functional... once you run out of CP, it is dead weight.
I'd rather have it be functional on its own than be near broken with stratagem support, which it needs to be to run the risk IMO.

No wargear options besides comm uplink exchanging for chaff, just the three datasheet loadouts, no Skitarii (this is so bizarre as to make me think it was an oversight), moderate transport capacity (though no special case for Kataphrons, so funny mental image of six 60mm base servitors piling into and out of it clown car style).

Most exciting things are the strong maneuverability (which will be less of an issue for more rigid Flyers in 9th anyways) and the slightly better than expected bomb profile.

Disagree. It's a flyer that actually makes you choose if you want to reliably hit things(it has a 3+ BS natively, while unwounded) or be harder to hit all the time.

With the Fusilave(bomber)? I don't see myself wanting Chaff too much, as staying mobile isn't a bad thing for it since the bombs don't get penalized for moving.--and since the bombs are dropped by moving over things, keeping the Uplink is a Good Thing as you can 'switch off' an enemy aura.
Stratoraptor? I see myself using the Chaff Launcher on it, alongside of the Hover Jets.
Transvector could go either way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Madjob wrote:
No wargear options besides comm uplink exchanging for chaff, just the three datasheet loadouts, no Skitarii (this is so bizarre as to make me think it was an oversight), moderate transport capacity (though no special case for Kataphrons, so funny mental image of six 60mm base servitors piling into and out of it clown car style).

Most exciting things are the strong maneuverability (which will be less of an issue for more rigid Flyers in 9th anyways) and the slightly better than expected bomb profile.

Kataphron aren't allowed in it. Electropriests( ), Skitarii, Secutarii, and Techpriests are the only things allowed in.

 Kanluwen wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Madjob wrote:
No wargear options besides comm uplink exchanging for chaff, just the three datasheet loadouts, no Skitarii (this is so bizarre as to make me think it was an oversight), moderate transport capacity (though no special case for Kataphrons, so funny mental image of six 60mm base servitors piling into and out of it clown car style).

Most exciting things are the strong maneuverability (which will be less of an issue for more rigid Flyers in 9th anyways) and the slightly better than expected bomb profile.

Kataphron aren't allowed in it. Electropriests( ), Skitarii, Secutarii, and Techpriests are the only things allowed in.

Ah right, glanced over it a bit too quickly, spotted "<Forge World> Skitarii Infantry" and my brain just ignored the Skitarii in the middle.

Its not accurate. Our entire army (minus katas/bots) hits on 3s. And this thing doesnt ignore heavy, so its either REALLY easy to kill because it ditched hard to hit to have equal firepower for +20pts vs a Skorpius, or its hitting on 4s to be slightly tougher to kill than a Skorpius.
Why would you want this thing? Every role it can do we have something far better already. Bombing isnt that amazing and thats really all it offers we dont have....oh wait the pterrax are gonna do that too (sorta) and theirs is actually deadly sounding.

Where's the point value? PLs are being revamped as part of 9th, so I'm not sure we can generalize from that any more.

Though I agree that the gunboat one looks pretty limp.

This isnt a 9th release, so its still safe to assume 1PL=20Pt

They are going to release a big points adjustment with 9th, they stated that in that big QNA session.

Yes, but they also said the PA books were made with 9th in mind, and while that may not really be true for the first ones, it clearly is true for these last ones. So I really wouldn't be surprised if the PLs on these sheets are the same value as they will be in 9th, whereas the ones in the codex probably aren't.

I'm not saying they'll be dramatically different or anything, just that I wouldn't bet on them corresponding exactly to what we think.

I actually wouldn't be surprised if it isn't even more than 20 points more than the skorpius, even budget flyers are usually around 130 points, and this is arguably one step up from that (though one step below the really good stuff).

Long story short: I take back any bad word I told about the planes. They are priced so aggressively I want to pick 3 bombers now for 130ppm with serpent shield (-15 if commlink). 164 for Gunship, 100 for transport.

I'll delete it if linking points leaks is not allowed (let me know then), but we can't whine. We just can't.

Sterylizors 32 points each if I'm reading that right? Lol...

Can definitely whine, the gunship is a joke at that price point. It would be dubious value at 140. Bomber looks about what you'd expect. Transport is about what you'd expect too but it just confirms it's kinda junk - 100 points for a model that doesn't actually do anything, with a transport capacity too small to deliver anything really threatening.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
This isnt a 9th release, so its still safe to assume 1PL=20Pt

They are going to release a big points adjustment with 9th, they stated that in that big QNA session.

Our PL to pts ratio has never been that. Trust me my group has considered using PL a few times but whether I counted my PL compared to others for the same points or was 30-40 HIGHER than any other army there.

The points are up on Facebook in French.

164 for a Stratoraptor,
110 for Fusilave
100 for transvector
15ppm skystalkers
17ppm(!) sterylizors
14ppm Raiders
16ppm Sulphurhounds

Can't see what wargear cost on the doggos are though so might be higher.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Sterylizors 32 points each if I'm reading that right? Lol...

17... The 15pts weapon is Heavy Phosphor

Of course they are going to be aggressively priced point-wise - they are a new hot $100 kit that they want to make bank on. Then a year or so later Chapter Approved 2021 will increase their points cost in the name of "balance."

How many Knights Castellan did you see on tabletops upon release, and then how many did you see after their points adjustment (i.e. after GW recouped their costs + a handsome profit)?

17 points for a 2W flyer with a 12 inch flamer? Doesn't pass the smell test.

130pts for the bomber?

Ork Burna Bommas are 132pts and were considered "niche" until the new strat to auto-explode for flat3 damage popped up. Only reason orks used it at all before was orks dont have many MW options, it did jack all outside of those bombs.
I fail to see how the admech bomber with a teeny-tiny better bomb rule (3Dice vs Vehicle/Monster) will be of note when the army already has plenty of mortal wound access anyway. Not like its stubbers hitting on 4s will do anything.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Sterylizors 32 points each if I'm reading that right? Lol...

Can definitely whine, the gunship is a joke at that price point. It would be dubious value at 140. Bomber looks about what you'd expect. Transport is about what you'd expect too but it just confirms it's kinda junk - 100 points for a model that doesn't actually do anything, with a transport capacity too small to deliver anything really threatening.

I'm reading it as that the wargear for each of the squads is 0? So 13 and 17 each by the looks of it. I could be wrong though, just at first glance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

yukishiro1 wrote:
17 points for a 2W flyer with a 12 inch flamer? Doesn't pass the smell test.

if i'm honest, it is around the points cost i was expecting for them, based on the Infiltrator and Ruststalker cost etc. Didn't expect the Skystalkers to be 15ppm though. A little less than i thought!

Yeah I couldn't read the text so I just found the only points value I could believe, but it is the heavy phosphor blaster. It does seem to be listed there as a zero point option. Which makes me question whether this is real/accurate. I have a hard time believing even GW would price a 2W flyer with a 12 inch S4 -1 flamer that ignores cover at only 17 points a model just to sell a new kit. Even putting aside the 3 S5 -1 attacks they get on the charge too, that's kinda absurd.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
130pts for the bomber?

Ork Burna Bommas are 132pts and were considered "niche" until the new strat to auto-explode for flat3 damage popped up. Only reason orks used it at all before was orks dont have many MW options, it did jack all outside of those bombs.
I fail to see how the admech bomber with a teeny-tiny better bomb rule (3Dice vs Vehicle/Monster) will be of note when the army already has plenty of mortal wound access anyway. Not like its stubbers hitting on 4s will do anything.

On a bomber that can do its run each turn, has serpent shield, has an easy access to cover and -hit (at least yet), that can do two pivots (and second one of these pivots is DURING the movement), and that was teased to have a tremor shells-like stratagem linked with it. 130 is a stupidly good price for this combo IMO. Oh, and which can (without serpent shield but 15pts cheaper) disable auras, and which we can auto-explode. And hover, but that's not that valid for the bomber specifically.

I don't think it's stupidly good, but the bomber does seem aggressively priced. The gunboat is junk at that price. The transport is kinda junk too, not because of the points per se but because of the really weird combination of high durability and very low transport capacity.

The gunboat's pricing is so weird it makes me think there must be some very powerful stratagem you can use with it - maybe move shoot move - because otherwise it'd just be kinda silly.

yukishiro1 wrote:
17 points for a 2W flyer with a 12 inch flamer? Doesn't pass the smell test.

That's because the phosphor torches are 15 (!!) points.

Edit: scratch that, misread the phosphor carbine as the torch (even more confusing why those are so expensive). "Chalumeau a phosphore" is undoubtedly the phosphor torch and is 0 points. That's nuts.

I thought that initially, hence the 32 points comment. But that's the heavy phosphor rifle, I'm pretty sure. I think the torch is the thing two below that starting with a "chal" (I can't read what it actually says).

Yeah, it's "chalumeau" which means "blowtorch." Is it possible that's a 6, not a 0? That's make them 23 a model, which seems more reasonable. But nope, I zoomed in, it's definitely a zero.

if they seriously priced the phospher torch at 15pts whoever priced them would need a good smack lol.
Same cost as the heavy phospher for -2 str, not even half the range, but autohits is WAY off on the "equal cost" margin lol.

17ppm sounds a point or two high, but thats managable to me. Now the question is can i load the entire unit that way, as i probably missed it but ive only seen mixed loadouts.

Also adding to the bomber discussion; i just dont see the flares making that big a difference since it has 10 wounds. 3 lascannons will still kill it typically, at best some small arms are needed to ping off that last wound. Its not like this thing can zoom out, corkscrew, bomb, and go right back to your side of the table. It'll get more options for bombing runs but i highly doubt it'll get more than 1 a game unless you let it swing really wide to avoid parking right next to their entire army (and negating Stygies by doing that)
Had it had 12-13 wounds, it would be annoying as most units with that -1 damage cant do that much damage unless they just overkill it in the first place, which saves the rest of your stuff from being shot.

A normal flamer is 6 points. This has an extra point of AP, 12 inch range, and ignores cover. The extra ap is worth a point, the range is worth at least 2, probably 3, especially considering it allows you to fire the turn on DS in and to overwatch people who DS in on you. The ignoring cover is a point. So you're looking at a 10 point weapon *minimum* by any normal pricing standard.

That prices a 2W flying model with 3 S5 -1 attacks on the charge at 7 points, which is ridiculous.

Normally, true, except basic flamers are overcosted trash anyway. As are normal heavy flamers for that matter.
6pts for D6 autohit super short range bolter shots is...not a very good deal at all. Except for stuff that is required to take it i have never seen anybody use flamer/heavy flamer this edition.


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Normally, true, except basic flamers are overcosted trash anyway. As are normal heavy flamers for that matter.
6pts for D6 autohit super short range bolter shots is...not a very good deal at all. Except for stuff that is required to take it i have never seen anybody use flamer/heavy flamer this edition.

Looks like sulphur hounds are 26ppm, 16pts base, 5pts per pistol, breath is free.... quite expensive. Bomber looks fine, the other 2 not so much.... sterylizors at 17ppm with wargear is super good, I was expecting 22ppm, seeing how a skorcha is like 14pts before being put on an ork..... cant complain there. Skystalkers at 15ppm was a nice surprise, still wont use them sadly.

yukishiro1 wrote:
A normal flamer is 6 points. This has an extra point of AP, 12 inch range, and ignores cover. The extra ap is worth a point, the range is worth at least 2, probably 3, especially considering it allows you to fire the turn on DS in. The ignoring cover is a point. So you're looking at a 10 point weapon *minimum* by any normal pricing standard.

That prices a 2W flying model with 3 S5 -1 attacks on the charge at 7 points, which is ridiculous.

I had a good laugh comparing these to Ork Burna Boyz, currently 10 points for their D3 flamers that let them hit with -2 ap in CC, but who started the edition at 14 points.

They do seem like they should be around the 22 point mark based on normal valuation mechanisms.

If that value is accurate, it unfortunately really feels like a "gotta sell the kit" valuation that is going to get a swift nerf once they've sold $300 worth of them to anybody who wants to take a competitive ad-mech list.

There's a biiiig dump of stuff on Reddit, apparently...


Raiders are tasty. All of them have cavalry sabres, not just the Alpha. Alpha is the only one with a pistol though.

I'm kinda getting concerned now though that we're losing rifles on our Skitarii Alphas, given that the Pteraxii don't get carbines/flamers.

Points in English -

All leaked admech stuff so far: https://imgur.com/a/NZLKQU9

The Holy Ordos traits are nuts, and we can have all of them if we want, plus any other traits so long as we have the characters and points to spend them on.

Did anybody else notice they repriced heavy phosphor blasters to 0 points? That means all heavy phosphor balster kastelan robots are now 65 points a model.

Expansionist Forge World with Forward Operations feels like it will fit my army like a glove.

Seems like a typo. Can't possibly be intended.

edit: They also forgot to exempt FLY units from the -1 to hit when shooting after falling back using the Stygies canticle.

And taser goads are nerfed to add hits only on an unmodified 6, not a 6+ like before. Making sterylizors even more absurdly undercosted relative to infiltrators.

If that Heavy Phosphor Blaster point change is not a typo, then pretty much everyone has to run 3x6 of them. Lol.

I am sort of soaking this all in, but I think the dominant lists are going to be Triple Mars Battalions with Cawl and Daedalosus, plus Manipulus and three Engineers with all four of the Holy Order auras. Because as far as I can tell, you can use the Mechanicus Locum as many times as you want.

Also, the Copter is a hard pass for me. Pricey and it carries only 6.

Link for everyone interested: https://www.facebook.com/BlogForTheBloodGod/posts/2653918621521634

As some of us had hoped, you can pick a FW canticle to replace an existing one, so obviously best to pick #2 to replace the terrible Electromancy Litany and also make it easy to access for Cawl (unlike #1 or #6). Also with both #2 and #4 useful, you literally cannot roll anything that won’t give you at least one useful result. 0% chance of useless canticles for Cawl!

1CP to make Corpuscarii guns AP2 seems fantastic to me. Lucius’s dogma basically makes them Harlequins with a FNP but still not wholly convinced that would be worth it.

I also quite like the +1 to wound strat for ironstriders, and -1 to be hit in melee for dragoons. Both seem like solidly useful strats in common situations.

5+++ FNP for Breachers further enhances Mars’s current playstyle. The extra hit on unmodified 6s is also strong, as we saw in the preview. But not massively sold on the others just yet.

2+ to prevent an infantry unit falling back also seems a mad boost in power for Sterilyzors. Though I'm still working through in my head all the things you could do with it.

There might be some decent assault Admech army in here somewhere, but the main thing seems to be being able to pin a screen in place. Want to keep a unit safe from these Drill/teleporting priests? Hope they're happy staying behind that big dispersed screen you set up.

Sterylizors are stupidly good at that price point. Flying screens are super powerful; flying screens that flame you when you charge them and can literally get out of any trap in the game automatically without rolling because "fly away" doesn't count as falling back are absurdly good. Add in the decent melee prowess, the 2+ don't let infantry fall back, and 2W profile and you have a borderline-broken unit.

From my initial reaction, Cawlbawl with some enginseers with the holy orders and 3x5 sterylizor to screen will be the new go-to list.

Personally I find that list super boring; if I go back to ad mech it'll probably be stygies combat, which also got a big boost with the sterylizors, easy access to reroll charges, and who knows, maybe even the hounds might not suck.

From my initial reaction, Cawlbawl with some enginseers with the holy orders and 3x5 sterylizor to screen will be the new go-to list.

It depends on if they realize that Kastelan Robots also have Heavy Phosphor Blasters and that they need to reprice the Gunship.

Assuming it gets fixed, I think it's the same Boatspam list or the Breacher blob. I think Sterilyzors are too expensive for their durability.

Yeah I didn't necessarily mean robots; they have to issue a day-1 FAQ on that price not applying to the bots or else the game is literally broken until they do.

Sterylizors don't have to start on the board, and can jump off at the start of any of your turns, so durability is much less of an issue. A unit of 5 gives you ridiculous board control for only 89 points, and is actually quite nasty to charge; an average 14 S4 -1AP hits is no joke. The only real downside is that the alpha sucks compared to the normal ones, for inexplicable reasons.

I think they will just reduce the price of the Stratoraptor by 30 and revert the price to 15.

89 points to 10 W3 4+/6++ save wounds?

40 points for a 10 termagants with a 6+ save, so just on a wounds basis you've got close to termagant screen costs with a 4+ save rather than a 6+ one.

Then you've got speed, fly, the flamers, the claw strat, etc.
Plus as 2W models, the LD issue is significantly reduced. You need 4 wounds before a squad of 5 even thinks of running (8 termagant kill).

The comparison to infiltrators is just brutal, especially with the nerf to taser goads. For 2 extra points per model (plus another 4 for the alpha) you get fly, skyleap *you can use in combat*, a much better gun, a wickedly good strat, and equivalent melee in a turn you charge.

Or compare skystalkers to swooping hawks. It's just stupid.

A more obvious explanation is that the book wasn't properly proofread, just like Saga of the Beast, and the 15 point tag on the phosphor blast carbine was meant to go on the heavy phosphor blasters.

I'd even say the same is probably true of the taser goad "nerf". Another case of a writer just rewriting rules from memory instead of taking the time to reference them.

It's also possible that they're going to be changing the Kastelan Robots to having "Twin Heavy Phosphor Blasters" as the arm options like the Onager Dunecrawler has instead of the current bit where you just replace the arms with Heavy Phosphor Blasters.

Madjob wrote:
A more obvious explanation is that the book wasn't properly proofread, just like Saga of the Beast, and the 15 point tag on the phosphor blast carbine was meant to go on the heavy phosphor blasters.

I'd even say the same is probably true of the taser goad "nerf". Another case of a writer just rewriting rules from memory instead of taking the time to reference them.

I dunno, that'd leave the blast carbine free while the blast pistol costs 5 points, which seems odd. I'm also not sure what the "phosphor pistol" is supposed to be for, unless they expanded the manipulus' datasheet to have a pistol option. Unless the phosphor pistol is the base gun for the hounds, and both the blast pistol and the blast carbine are upgrades. But again if so, it wouldn't make sense that the carbine is free but the base pistols cost points.

If someone leaks the datasheet for the hounds it'll be really easy to tell.

Another point of comparison that shows how silly the sterylizor weapon cost is: the kastellan flamers are the same except they're heavy instead of assault, and +1S but don't ignore cover. They cost 15 points per gun. This would value the sterylizor gun even higher than I estimated before.


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 Kanluwen wrote:
It's also possible that they're going to be changing the Kastelan Robots to having "Twin Heavy Phosphor Blasters" as the arm options like the Onager Dunecrawler has instead of the current bit where you just replace the arms with Heavy Phosphor Blasters.

But they don't have a new robot datasheet in the book, so that would literally be breaking the game until 9th, and there's no way they would intentionally have done that. And that would still make the third one free.


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Raiders are also absurdly cheap. 14 points for 3W models? The free 12+d6 move is pretty great too, and RAW it looks like you can combo it with the stygies move to move them 21+d6 before the first battle round, which is pretty funny. Sure, they don't actually do much of anything with their shooting or in combat, but for 44 points, the amount of armies a single unit can totally screw over is immense.


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Sulphurhounds datasheet:



It does look like there might be something wonky with the points values. No matter how you break things down, 4 extra points for the blast pistol for +1S over the normal pistol is terrible, as is 15 points for the carbine, at 24" Assault 4 S5 -1 1 gun.

So the things that'll likely be fixed in a FAQ;

-Phosphor Blasters not being free
-Single use on extra warlord strat like all other strats like it
-Tasergoad

Take aways;
-Admech are officially the most expensive army.
-Flyer Gunboats are solid but only as Mars
-Mars is seriously hardcore go to now. It's almost dumb to play anything else.
-I want the sulfur hounds for looks but at 18pts each after you add the two pistols they don't compare with the raiders who get a free pre-game move, can target characters with 2 shot 18" gun, and can flee with full movement from a charge. All for 14pts.
-Both flying infantry are sick even without their pop up and down ability
-All of the logos have at least 1 good ability and some multiples.
-Picking to get rid of #2 is gold for specialty canticles.


*****The sulfur hound models use the phosphor pistol, not the phosphor blast pistol (that's on the sergeant) so they are only 18ppm*******[u]

Lucius Canticle is kinda busted for basic Infantry. You get a 4+/5++, and the first point of AP is ignored! The ability to fall back and shoot with Stygies is GOLDEN though.

GSC still costs more I think, nobody can touch $40 for 5 acolytes.

I don't see hounds getting much play. They have an extra wound over sterylizors and shoot a bit better if they're inside 8 inches (but much worse outside it), but they lose all the tricks, and their melee is complete junk. And the hounds have an even worse squad leader than the sterylizors. What's with this book and making the squad leaders unambiguously worse than the basic troops? The raider leader is the only one who isn't a blatant tax; even his pistol is dubious value, but at least it's only 2 points.

Did not know the Sterilyzers were getting +1 attack on the charge as well as the +1 strength. Oof, theyre quite rude. Im not seeing a way to fall back and charge, but being Fly they can at least fall back and Torch.

Also FFS the alpha HAS to have the pistol + melee combo in both versions of the pterrax? Ughh....least the pistol is decent.

Most of those custom dogmas are pretty lackluster, couple shine out but a lot of them the lack of the new Canticle alone ruins what they had going for them. That being said i totally wanna do a vehicle heavy list with Magnabonded Alloys + Autoservant Spirits. Vehicles get 6+ FNP and if theyre damaged at the start of my turn they heal 1 wound lol. Thats just comical, realistically it wont mean much (the second part anyway)

Also i dont see the other cavalry type, just the raiders. That get missed? edit: nvm i see it added later

Gotta say, the hounds look fun but not really amazing. But those gargoyle variants...YEEESSH i think i wanna preorder extra of those since im not geting the plane anyway lol
I think the cavalry, both variants, would be massively better if they had a rule to get out of combat. Theyre close range assailants with respectable melee but no way to get back out of melee. And only the single shot per model pistol works in melee.

Another lol moment: the Sterylizor Alpha doesn't have talons, even though he is clearly modeled with them.

The custom forge worlds look like hot garbage to me.

derp, ignore me

@yukishiro1

Genestealer cult are never worse than 1.5pts per model unless you don't give cc weapons to the acolytes. Admech has moved much closer to $1 per point with this release. The only boxsets that's better than $1.5 per point with common builds are the basic troop box and the big robots. Kataphrons depend on which build out of the box.

@vineheart01

You literally can't charge a unit of the raiders so they don't need to be good in cc. They'll never get touched as long as you have a cp. That said the sulfur hounds would actually be pretty good in cc. 2 st4 -1, 1 st3 no ap attack per model and then shooting 2 st4 -1 pistols and adding that to d6 flamer hits isn't bad at all. The real issue is that the raiders are so much better and for significantly less.

Breachers and Fulgurites are still our best screening units. Raiders are also durable and fast, very low key useful--sort of like Breachers. Not sure if Sterilyzors can compete; they seem to be ideal for jumping around the board to grab objectives and harass units.

In terms of stratagems, the Distintegrator stratagem is great. Evacuation Sequence is also just pure value-added. Pattern Iteration Identified makes a small unit of Las Striders into Titan Slayers.

Mars is definitely the clear winner of the FW options. Most lists rely on Heavy weapons, and the Cawl rerolls are just too good. And +1S is huge because from my personal experience, our lists struggle against high toughness armies because so many of our weapons cap out at S6. I crunched the numbers, and I think the two biggest beneficiaries are Boats and Breachers. S5 Stubbers are MEAN. It's just the thing to wipe out small units of Marines. And sooo many of the targets that Breachers want to shoot at are T7.

The other Forge Worlds will require you to build your list a specific way or for a specific purpose. But because the Holy Order keywords are all FW coded, it's best to just pick one.

What other than that stratagem makes the raiders better? Only the alpha has that rude pistol and their rifle feels pretty lame to me. Being able to shoot a character is nice but with 0 AP on all except 1 shot, unless you get a wound roll of a 6 then its ap1, they arent going to kill a character except Ork ones that have no save in the first place. Yeah they cause mortals on a 6 but with only a maximum of 16 S4 AP0 and 1 S5 Ap2 2D shots, which isnt really super cheap, i still dont see them killing a character unless theres a big + to wound im missing they have access to and/or extreme dice luck. The only + to wound im seeing is Ironstrider specific.

Oversight on the Sulphurhounds perhaps? Their pistoleers ability just says they can fire pistols even if they advanced, but it says nothing about a -1 to hit. That -1 to hit is only stock to Assault weapons.

Which means, RAW, they shoot at BS3+.

I'm severely disappointed with the custom Forgeworlds. I was expecting more than just three, especially given how narrow in scope the perks are. They don't include any unique Relics, Stratagems, or Canticles, so you're already starting at a disadvantage with them (and that didn't need to be the case, they could have added one of each!).

My initial impression of Radiant Disciples was it was strictly worse than Stygies, so the secondary had to make up for it. For secondaries: buffing Rad-saturation doesn't matter, buffing "radium" weapons only affects Vanguard (and Sydonian Dragoons, but they don't benefit from Radian Disciples), and the other two are so bad I won't even discuss them. So I don't see a way to make a good list where this better than Stygies.

Expansion is at least interesting. The primary could at least conceivably benefit the whole army, so that's a step in the right direction, but I don't think it's particularly good by itself. However, I think you could actually make an army out of Forward Operations or Acquisitive Reach if you heavily commit to Rangers. Forward Operations seems more interesting for re-deployment shenanigans than actual movement, since you could just take a transport (and Vanguard) if you wanted to go fast. Acquisitive Reach actually gets interesting with a Manipulus, putting Rangers up to 42" of range. The problem with both those options is they have anti-synergy with the Primary, since you're encouraged to take more Rangers but Rangers don't want to fight in close combat. Again, the last two secondaries aren't worth talking about.

I think Data-horde is the most viable because it actually broadly applies to several of AdMech's best units. A 6+ FNP on vehicles is fine. The movement and Arc weapon secondaries are utterly worthless. Healing 1 wound at the start of each turn is maybe good, or I might be confused because it actually has synergy with the primary unlike literally every other secondary. Servo-focused Augaries is probably the best option out of the custom Forgeworlds period since you can build a reasonable army where both the primary and secondary affect all the prominent units. (And it blows my mind that none of the other options even come that close to being playable.) Of course, let me stress, that Servo-focused army would consist principally of the new flyers, Ironstrider Ballistari, and Skorpius Duneriders; it would be merely playable with a coherent synergy, not good.

What the hell happened? These "choices" are so half-baked that most of them can be discarded out of hand. They barely even express a narrative because there are so few effects to your choice. GW really hamstrung themselves by not including any relics OR stratagems OR Warlord traits OR canticles.

I dunno why you would want to screen with 14 point electropriests when you could screen with 17 point sterylizors that just do it vastly better in every way. I mean I don't know that we're even using the word to mean the same thing if electropriests could be a screening unit. Literally anything screens better than electropriests. Electropriests are only good when they're charging stuff and getting to fight first before they get wiped out.

The raiders are the big competition with the sterylizors IMO, because of that wicked pre-game move. The fall-back-when-charged strat is also great, but 2CP is super expensive, and the unit itself is so cheap, that I think usually the only reason you'd use it is if you're afraid of getting wrapped.

The main selling point of the sterylizors is they are an unwrappable screen - AFAIK the only completely unwrappable screen in the game in the sense that they can automatically escape any trap, which no other unit I am aware of can do - and that is hugely valuable. There are whole lists that 3x5 sterylizors will essentially win you the game against because they just can't deal with unwrappable screens that block off their movement. And if you aren't playing one of those lists...you just keep them in DS and drop them down to incinerate things instead, so the points aren't wasted the way the raider points are wasted against a list where you don't need the screening.

Screening units are units that prevent enemies from getting close enough to charge your gunline, right? Fulgurites in Boats definitely do that.

I dunno, multiple MSU Sterilyzors seems trivially easy to remove in shooting. T3 W2 4+/6++ is not that great a defensive statline; Breachers would be a lot more efficient outside of a Boat. I cannot imagine using them to screen; they seem better in the air, looking for an objective to hold or some isolated unit to pick off.

Fulgurites in Boats and Breachers are also incredibly difficult to wrap.

I guess I don't really get it. A boat doesn't take up enough space to screen well. It can be a physical barrier if you set it up a couple inches front of your gunline to stop a charger from being able to get in to what's behind it (though this doesn't work well against armies that can fight twice and/or consolidate 6"), especially if you have two or three to put in a row to do it with so they can't just go around. But that's not really screening. Screening is about taking up space on the board to limit your opponent's ability to move and DS. You'd have to get the priests out of the boat to screen off a significant amount of space, and then they just die, so you'd be better off using anything else.

You bring four Boats and anchor them along LOS blockers; another Boat is a LOS blocker. You want to forward deploy them along the edge of your deployment zone.

I think you are describing a sort of defensive playstyle that hasn't really been competitive for awhile. Fact is, AdMech stopped being the hottest gunline when the Marine Supplements dropped. If you wanted to win, you had to switch to a more mobile and transactional playstyle. Use your gunline to make good trades and allow your infantry to win the game for you.

On that note, my first take on a list, and it doesn't use any of the new units:

Basically, you've got a big castle with 3 Crawlers, 3 Grators, 2x5 Breachers being buffed by Cawl, Daeda, and the Holy Order Friends. I determined that only three of the four are particularly useful for this army.

Crawlers and Grators take down flyers, infantry, and even vehicles super easily now. The Breachers are specifically for killing vehicles, and they got that double Haywire going; they also provide a screen for the tanks if they need to bug out.

You also have two paired Boats containing Vanguard and Fulgurites to screen alphas and then move out to grab objectives.

EDIT: Also, I am pretty certain they got the Phosphor Blast Pistol and the Heavy Phosphor Blasters mixed up, and the Stratoraptor may already be priced correctly.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
What other than that stratagem makes the raiders better? Only the alpha has that rude pistol and their rifle feels pretty lame to me. Being able to shoot a character is nice but with 0 AP on all except 1 shot, unless you get a wound roll of a 6 then its ap1, they arent going to kill a character except Ork ones that have no save in the first place. Yeah they cause mortals on a 6 but with only a maximum of 16 S4 AP0 and 1 S5 Ap2 2D shots, which isnt really super cheap, i still dont see them killing a character unless theres a big + to wound im missing they have access to and/or extreme dice luck. The only + to wound im seeing is Ironstrider specific.

I wholeheartedly agree. They are "9 cheap wounds that control board through scout move and die to a stiff breeze". They bring literally nothing more to the table. Their sniper shooting is a joke, it can't realistically damage characters not force them to hide. They are mediocre in close combat.
Maybe I'm missing the nuances of pro-player tactical maneuvering.

Is it just me or do Serberys Raiders have the ability of the enhanced data tether, but no option to take it?
The Datasheet does not allow it as far as I can tell...

No they can, its the literal one option they do have. "One model can have an Enhanced Data Tether"

Unless you did the custom dogma for +1 LD instead of the reroll i have no idea why you'd want that. Only a max squad is actually going to suffer leadership issues potential. The +1LD at least can mess with effects that target your LD, the normal Tether just lets you reroll in the morale phase.

I legit dont see why Raiders are good. They feel like a trap to me. That strat is awesome but its 2CP and i'd see opponents trying to force you to do it just to burn your CP as much as they can.

Ah. Good old case of blindness then.

Usually I took tethers for the +2 to hit but.. well.
Yeah, pretty useless now.

My plan for the raiders is to take (2?) smaller squads and use them to push forward for deny deep strike or Objectives turn 1.

most likely not bothering for the fallback strat. although I could see it being used if I want to grab an objective late game - let someone charge me and I could use that to slingshot the raiders to the objective?

also I suspect there will need to be a way to remember what Holy Order aura you are going to be using (and/or to help your opponent remember as well?).

As such, I found an ebay seller who does custom metal tokens (see photo) which may be of interest? you might just need to message directly to ask for custom tokens - he created these mockups of the tokens in advance of an order.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/usr/the_woodlandking

jesus the amount of buffing you can put on Mars dakkabots now is kinda silly..

Cawl is around for all rerolls
Character1 Warlord has Diviniation of the Magos, for exploding 6s
Character2 Strat Warlord Trait has Analysis of the Logos for wound of a 6 makes their gun AP3 instead of 2 (Alternate: Fabrications of the Artisan for half-range AP+1 and a fallback and still shoot option in case they get charged)
Mars Canticle, its now S7 guns, and since its replacing one Cawl can easily make you get it almost every turn.
One of those characters = Manipulus for extra dakka reach
Wrath of Mars strat for Mortals on a 6.

Thats just scary lol

 Vineheart01 wrote:
jesus the amount of buffing you can put on Mars dakkabots now is kinda silly..

Cawl is around for all rerolls
Character1 Warlord has Diviniation of the Magos, for exploding 6s
Character2 Strat Warlord Trait has Analysis of the Logos for wound of a 6 makes their gun AP3 instead of 2 (Alternate: Fabrications of the Artisan for half-range AP+1 and a fallback and still shoot option in case they get charged)
Mars Canticle, its now S7 guns, and since its replacing one Cawl can easily make you get it almost every turn.
One of those characters = Manipulus for extra dakka reach
Wrath of Mars strat for Mortals on a 6.

Thats just scary lol

And my understanding is that 9th edition will allow vehicles like Dakkabots to shoot from melee in some capacity. Previously their greatest weakness was something tagging them.

Thoughts on 2k Graian Horde list?

Brigade(Graia):

Dominus (Biosplicer, Phosphoenix)
Manipulus (Magos, Omniscient Mask)
Daedalosus

21 Breachers (3 squads of 7, base loadout)
45 Vanguard (9 squads of 5, base loadout)

Datasmith (Genetor, Warlord, Raiment of Technomartyr)
10 Ruststalkers with chordclaws (1 squad of 10)
8 Servitors (base loadout)

15 Skystalkers (3 squads of 5, base loadout)
3 Sulphurhounds (1 squad of 3, base loadout)

3 Neutronagers

Hahaha oh man, I take back what I said, those prices truly are ridiculous. Even worse than GSC. I like how the cavalry is so expensive even GW itself gets it wrong about how many models the kit produces on the pre-order page because even they can't seem to believe you really only get 3 cavalry for $60. $60 for 44 points. Jebus.

And that $100 copter...LOL.

One thing I just noticed as a plus to the Raiders, the MW sniper component is on a 6+ and you can add an enhanced data tether to the unit. So although there aren't hundreds of shot coming out of a unit you're getting MW in addition on a 4+ for 1cp

I also quite fancy that Ruststalkers strategm to switch board edges with them. Keep them back to protect the gunline then strategically switch them to my opponents board edge to take an objective or tag some artillery.

That's if I can fit them in now, that's going to be the worst thing now, we were already jockeying to fit all our cool stuff in, now we have even more cool stuff!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh another thing i'm cautious about at the moment is the wording for the assignment of a Holy order Warlord trait is "If an adeptus mechanicus character is your warlord you can select a warlord trait from below for them" The mechanicus locum strategm specifically mentions using it AFTER you've selected your warlord. The strategem only says that the model is treated as your warlord for the purposes of resolving the trait. Not that it actually IS your warlord. So I'm anticipating an errata or faq to clarify that and we'll end up only being able to pick one holy order and it'll have to be on our warlord. As it stands there's no way in hell you'd pick one of the regular warlord traits otherwise, why bother when the holy orders are so much better? It just seems wrong to allow more than one, which more than likely means it is.

MW sniper is a 6+ wound roll, not hit roll.

Octovol wrote:



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Oh another thing i'm cautious about at the moment is the wording for the assignment of a Holy order Warlord trait is "If an adeptus mechanicus character is your warlord you can select a warlord trait from below for them" The mechanicus locum strategm specifically mentions using it AFTER you've selected your warlord. The strategem only says that the model is treated as your warlord for the purposes of resolving the trait. Not that it actually IS your warlord. So I'm anticipating an errata or faq to clarify that and we'll end up only being able to pick one holy order and it'll have to be on our warlord. As it stands there's no way in hell you'd pick one of the regular warlord traits otherwise, why bother when the holy orders are so much better? It just seems wrong to allow more than one, which more than likely means it is.

I'm not too worried about it, there are far more blatant rules out there that have gone unnoticed for months. I think the ability to take more than one ordos is intentional.

yukishiro1 wrote:
MW sniper is a 6+ wound roll, not hit roll.

Gah, you're right. and that +1 to wound strat is on balistarii as well, so doesn't work for dragoon snipers either. Ah well.


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 LexOdin9 wrote:

Octovol wrote:



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Oh another thing i'm cautious about at the moment is the wording for the assignment of a Holy order Warlord trait is "If an adeptus mechanicus character is your warlord you can select a warlord trait from below for them" The mechanicus locum strategm specifically mentions using it AFTER you've selected your warlord. The strategem only says that the model is treated as your warlord for the purposes of resolving the trait. Not that it actually IS your warlord. So I'm anticipating an errata or faq to clarify that and we'll end up only being able to pick one holy order and it'll have to be on our warlord. As it stands there's no way in hell you'd pick one of the regular warlord traits otherwise, why bother when the holy orders are so much better? It just seems wrong to allow more than one, which more than likely means it is.

I'm not too worried about it, there are far more blatant rules out there that have gone unnoticed for months. I think the ability to take more than one ordos is intentional.

Curious why you think it's intentional? I could see it being an oversight they let slide, but intentional? So you're saying that fluff-wise a force of admech would dedicate itself to 2 holy orders at once? I could see them letting it slide as one per detachment but 2 within the same detachment? I guess it all depends on whether it's the force (detachment) or the character that is pledging to the holy order. Like a lot of stuff in this release, it's needlessly vague, would it kill them to just itemise subject, effect, range, duration on things instead of just trying to explain them in sentences that are open to interpretation?

Lore-wise, it's more like a personal philosophy for the commander than an actual hierarchy for the faction. "Yet even as subcults, movements and schisms are in constant flux, four Holy Orders are commonly recognized on the majority of Forge Worlds."

What's the latest verdict on the number of bombs the flyboys drop? Is it one per flyboy or one per model in the target unit?

Unfortunately, GW can't write for gak. They use 'this' twice in the arc bombs rule. Once is unambiguously referring to the skystalkers, the other 'this' could legitimately be either the number of models in the skystalkers or the number of models in target unit.

This is double frustrating because the wording in every other bombing run ability I can find is actually very clear about delineating which unit they're talking about.

I think RAI, it's intended as one bomb per model in the target, especially after seeing the points cost on the skystalkers. Though I originally thought it was one bomb per model in the skystalkers unit based on their use of 'this' and 'that.'

Eh, they've really not thought this through if that's their intention. Either that or we're intended to be OP lol

HO Artisan: Exquisite Calibrations - improve AP by 1 for models within half range
HO Logos: Flaws of the Foe - improve AP by 1 on unmodified hit roll of 6

Manipulus + 6" range 30" AP -3 Autocannons anyone? lol

There are so many options of combinations when you combine WTs it's obscene. The number of options we have available to us is pretty mind-boggling.


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RogueApiary wrote:
What's the latest verdict on the number of bombs the flyboys drop? Is it one per flyboy or one per model in the target unit?

Unfortunately, GW can't write for gak. They use 'this' twice in the arc bombs rule. Once is unambiguously referring to the skystalkers, the other 'this' could legitimately be either the number of models in the skystalkers or the number of models in target unit.

This is double frustrating because the wording in every other bombing run ability I can find is actually very clear about delineating which unit they're talking about.

I think RAI, it's intended as one bomb per model in the target, especially after seeing the points cost on the skystalkers. Though I originally thought it was one bomb per model in the skystalkers unit based on their use of 'this' and 'that.'

General consensus is it's one bomb per model in the Skystalker unit. 'This' refers to your own unit as in the first part of the rule. There's a different term 'enemy unit' as is used in the first part of the rule to refer to the target.


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That 2cp strategem for the Raiders I think has more utility than we initially thought.

It is quite pricey but it has a number of advantages:

If we look at raiders as a screening unit and set them up to protect our gunline units so that there's no space available for a flying unit to charge over the top of them. They might be thinking they'll charge the raiders and consolidate to tie up the gunline afterwards. Solid strategy. Especially as you would generally not set them up so close BECAUSE of the consolidation danger.

However, as soon as they declare a charge against the raiders you can spend your 2cp and move TOWARDS the charging unit. Hell depending on the terrain and how far away they are you might even get the raiders level with them or behind the charging unit! Once they've declared the charge they can't back down so you can potentially draw them away from their intended target.

Now if they're clever, if the charging unit has Fly, they could declare a charge against both the raiders AND the gunline behind. But in that case you stay where you are and they have to chew through the raiders first, plus eating overwatch from the raiders and the gunline.

And if that gunline is a squad of Balistarii, they overwatch on full BS

And Raiders are cheap, a better point per wound than even Ruststalkers. And if you need them to they're as fast as Pteraxii (but without Fly) so they also give us that mobility we've been needing to get objectives and deny DS.

I don't know, the rules feel good from the drop. The new units aren't that impressive, unlike the transport/tank kit that added a lot to army these units feel like luxury units people will mostly get and play for a lark but leave the same good units as still the go to choices. At least so far as I see it. The bomber plane can be interesting and maybe some of the flyers but not anything meta defining.

Just have some fun, and in the nature of fun I like the feel of the raiders at least.

Not to detract from the current discussion on the new models, but the new rules for Mars got me thinking about Larsen Vandergrass from Elucidian Starstriders Killteam. Forgive me if this has been brought up already, but looking at him with fresh eyes I was thinking he might be a nice tool to have in a lot of lists.

First of all, he has the admech, mars, character, and tech-priest keywords so you can take him in any Mars list, second of all, he's an elites choice — which under the current rules could help to fill out a brigade, although who knows what that will mean in 9th.

The reason I think he could be useful, however, is that there's a 1cp stratagem that allows him to teleport anywhere as if he were deepstriking, and you can use it more than once per game. So he's a character that can teleport to any objective you need him on multiple times.

For 22pts he might be a decent choice to help with our mobility.

Lucius is super underrated with that Canticle for any Skitarii. A 7/8 point model with a 4+/5++ that ignores AP-1 is super good. On top of that, their Strat is basically just as good as Stygies.

Raiders are good because:
1) Scout move allows them to control objectives and screen enemy assault units before the game even begins
2) Cost 44 points and are Fast Attack, so you can use them to fill Brigade slots

That being said, I am surprised that their profile is basically Skitarii and that they are T3, not T4. Mounts usually add +1T.

The more I look at the bomber, the more impressed I am. 110 points. Can advance 70", bomb and apply shaken to enemies, turn and hide behind some ruins. The fact that they can clear elites so easily is nuts...

@TheArchmagos
I don't think you can give a named character a WLT, can you?

@Suzuteo, I didn't mention any warlord traits. You can teleport him with a Starstriders stratagem. Although if you could give him a warlord trait he might be a good way to get those new buffs where you need them, even if he's very fragile at 2 wounds.

Also, am I the only one thinking of using these dark elf cold one riders to convert up the new raiders? As much as I love the new sculpts, $210 CAD for 9 (under 200pts) is so over the top I just can't justify it. Not sure if the scale would work or how easy they would be to mix with ranger parts but if you converted 2 boxes of these you would have 9 for $80 CAD plus whatever the cost of the appropriate bases is.

Oh. That's why people have been talking about stuffing Enginseers into their army.

Though I did mock out a turn at home, and I think you actually only will get good use out of two of the Holy Order WLTs.

Updated list with bomber:

I thought you can give a WLT to a named character but it must be the special trait of their subfaction or the trait specified for them in their codex.

Pomguo wrote:
I thought you can give a WLT to a named character but it must be the special trait of their subfaction or the trait specified for them in their codex.

Yeah, usually it is specified. I am not so sure about the sidegame characters though...

Also, the Canticles are not Forge World locked, so what I said about giving it to a Knight applies. +1S or -1 to hit within 9" Knights. Lol...

My take on all this is that multi subfaction play became a lot stronger.

If you have a warlord in a secondary detatchment you can effectively select which canticle you want reguardless of your main detatchment.

The new warlord traits are really strong and go some way to closeing the gap on cawl castles.

Custom forgeworlds seem underwhelming barring very specific small detatchments

The fix on ruststalkers and corpuscarii are both significant

Pteraxi are too overcosted to be credible

The raiders are the stand out new unit. Sulphur hounds are ok

Stratoraptors cool but a little pricey the transvectors are a fail only transporting 6 models is waek letting them transport secutarii is nice but secutarii are minimum 10 models - so do they proof read, the bombers seem overcosted

Overall it seems like admech got a needed power up and might even be top tear


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 Suzuteo wrote:

Pomguo wrote:
I thought you can give a WLT to a named character but it must be the special trait of their subfaction or the trait specified for them in their codex.

Yeah, usually it is specified. I am not so sure about the sidegame characters though...

Also, the Canticles are not Forge World locked, so what I said about giving it to a Knight applies. +1S or -1 to hit within 9" Knights. Lol...

Admech wording is unusual
Cawl warlord static psalm only no relic
Larsen van de grauss any warlord trait a mars character could take no relic
Daedalosus any non forgeworld specific warlord trait no relic

The new warlord trait strategem can be used however the new warlord traits specify not named characters for this reason.

Prime hermeticon could be ok on larsen monitor malevolous seems the other obvious choice


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 TheArchmagos wrote:
Not to detract from the current discussion on the new models, but the new rules for Mars got me thinking about Larsen Vandergrass from Elucidian Starstriders Killteam. Forgive me if this has been brought up already, but looking at him with fresh eyes I was thinking he might be a nice tool to have in a lot of lists.

First of all, he has the admech, mars, character, and tech-priest keywords so you can take him in any Mars list, second of all, he's an elites choice — which under the current rules could help to fill out a brigade, although who knows what that will mean in 9th.

The reason I think he could be useful, however, is that there's a 1cp stratagem that allows him to teleport anywhere as if he were deepstriking, and you can use it more than once per game. So he's a character that can teleport to any objective you need him on multiple times.

For 22pts he might be a decent choice to help with our mobility.

As according to 40k stats.com i am the highest ranked/only competative ES player from last year. It doesn't work the way you think it does.

If you check larsen data sheet he does not have the admech or mars faction keywords (which determine what you can take in a detatchment) he can therefore only be taken in an elucidean starstriders detatchment not in an admech elite slot and so he can't fill out a brigade.

He also doesn't have access to his own teleport strat unless elucidia vhane is in your army.

However because he has the mars and admech keyword he can benefit from relevant strats buffs and warlord traits once hes in your army provided you also have an admech detatchment

U02dah4 wrote:
My take on all this is that multi subfaction play became a lot stronger.

If you have a warlord in a secondary detatchment you can effectively select which canticle you want reguardless of your main detatchment.

The new warlord traits are really strong and go some way to closeing the gap on cawl castles.

Custom forgeworlds seem underwhelming barring very specific small detatchments

The fix on ruststalkers and corpuscarii are both significant

Pteraxi are too overcosted to be credible

The raiders are the stand out new unit. Sulphur hounds are ok

Stratoraptors cool but a little pricey the transvectors are a fail only transporting 6 models is waek letting them transport secutarii is nice but secutarii are minimum 10 models - so do they proof the bombers seem overcosted

Overall it seems like admech got a needed power up and might even be top tear


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 Suzuteo wrote:

Pomguo wrote:
I thought you can give a WLT to a named character but it must be the special trait of their subfaction or the trait specified for them in their codex.

Yeah, usually it is specified. I am not so sure about the sidegame characters though...

Also, the Canticles are not Forge World locked, so what I said about giving it to a Knight applies. +1S or -1 to hit within 9" Knights. Lol...

Admech wording is unusual
Cawl warlord static psalm only no relic
Larsen van de grauss any warlord trait a mars character could take no relic
Daedalosus any non forgeworld specific warlord trait no relic

The new worlord trait strategem can be used however the new warlord traits specify not named characters

Prime hermeticon could be ok on larsen monitor malevolous seems the other obvious choice

I would probably bet that the FW Canticles will get FAQ'd to only effect the FW specified units. Having your Mars units suddenly be super sneaky like Stygies or as durable due to masterwork bionics like Lucius seems like a HUGE oversight... Thats like having your Ironhand Devastator Doctrine affect other Chapters like White Scars and Ravenguard.

I dont see how Pteraxii are overcosted..... The Sterylizors are quite frankly amazing. Just being able to redeploy every other turn is worth the cost alone, that gives so much mobility and protection to the unit, they can "fall back" from combat when other units simply cant! Those Rustalkers that you say are significantly improved have to rely on a CP, and can fail to interact in that turn if they fail their charge and most objectives arent usually within 9" reach of board edge even if you only have to get within 3". Yeah its a same turn move where as the Pteraxii have to wait a turn, but atleast they can shoot and have the same change to charge. Skystalkers can atleast also make use of Wrath of Mars and plink wounds off vehicles and other units whilst also not needing to get as danger close like infiltartors do! 11pts for a Ruststalker / 15pts for a Infiltrator / 15pts for a Skystalker / 17pts for a Sterylizor.

I couldnt disagree more with that statement haha! Skystalkers kind of replace Infiltrators straight up especially if taser goads are being changed to a 6 unmodified. Fly, the extra range, of movement and to the weapons. the baked in redeploy, grenades and token stratagem for the same cost as Infiltrators is kind of an insult to those older Sicarians.... Whatever they could do they do better... Except combat (which they would still fold like wet paper if the enemy hit back) and the absolutely trash neurostatic aura they changed from 7th. Now morale is different in 9th but I dont see the aura being that useful for them.

Sterylizors are just amazing, 17pts for the base model and the flamer is ridiculous. I pay 14pts for a Skorcha for my Orkz.... 8pts for my shredders for Dark Eldar. And I liked shredders in Flayed Skull (granted they dont affect Scourges but they do Kabalites), Scourges are 20pts a model with shredders, whilst they are str 6 and reroll to wound vs infantry, they dont ignore cover (gonna be more prevalent in 9th) or autohit, let alone get them anywhere near 9 in a unit. They dont have the amount of wounds, the better combat stats (by a large margin) or the redeploy again. Then lets factor in the new strat that stops an infantry unit falling back on a 2+. We dont know what the core rule book one will be but if this is a straight upgrade or identical, we could have 2 uses of locking units in combat a turn!

At what price would Skystalkers and Sterylizors be worth it to you? Im really intrigued. Of course they are fragile, that comes with being Skitarii, but the flexibility, mobility, armaments and costing is what most other codexes hope for with their units. If an intercessor is 17pts for 1 extra toughess, save and leadership but half the movement, no fly, no redeploy mid battle or deepstrike in general, no invun and worse combat stats (to Sterylizors) (and arguably worse guns as Sterylizors can get easily get into range) then I dont get whats so bad about the cost? Whatever damage 2 gun that kills a primaris kills one of these.

For all we know troops might not even be that useful in 9th and screening is kind of getting less prevalent now that our vehicles can fall back and still shot at normal BS or -1 with Stygies, or flat out shoot into combat.... Im not saying screening is no longer needed, but we should be less concerned about getting caught with our pants round our ankles once we get loved tap by a unit in combat. Wrapping and trapping is still and issue but we have the tools to mitigate the overall lose of shooting efficiency.

The planes.... well the only one I value is the bomber. 110-130pts is super good for bombs that never run out and with the better than eldar turn pattern you can get quite the good range of movement. It also has one of the smallest turning arcs in the game, you move it 10" forward and then 10" either right or left and then its phyiscally only moved 10" in a diagonal, then with the 70" move it can really get some nice angles and bombing runs for other turns, and having access to tremor shells is so nice to have. The other 2 are pretty damn near pointless, nothing to say about them. And not having the Skitarii keyword is just lazy rules writing unless it was intentional to stop two Stratoraptors getting +1 to hit, but yet now we can get 2 Desintegrators +1 to hit too with PDI and the specific one for the Grator.

The Hounds, I agree that the Raiders have some crazy good utility and as some one mentioned before, moving them towards the charging unit to then stop them charging further and tapping all your lines to shut them down/reduce the firepower. Suplhurs I want to like but they really compete with Sterylizors and I just see the bats doing more and easier, the real life price cost alone is a such a turn off too for them, when 9 is 169pts (base equipment no blast carbines) for £105 or £82.50 from my local retailer is so damn steep.

Overall the new warlord traits, canticles and strats have been a nice refresh to the range and has gotten me excited to play again (most of you know I kept falling out of love with 8th), the buildabear dogmas are meh, but so are most of the other PA ones, could be as bad as GCS though haha.

Ill be converting up 2 Grators like this link:
https://imgur.com/gallery/o4n5FUO

Pre faq thats how it works canticle wise and it could be a legitimate design choice that limits you to only one for your army based on your actual warlord. Plus doing it that way is an anti soup measure as having an out of faction warlord means you dont get a new canticle. Also from a fluff perspective marines chapters are more insular than forgeworlds just look at the mechanicus computer game could be representing a stygies dominous uploading his psalm code altering behaviour instantly rather than a space marine doctrine which would take a long time for a marine to change its learned behaviour. I read as intentional.

The taser goad ups the pteraxi by a ppmish on a squad of 5 half a point on 10
Mars infiltrators and lucius corpuscarii do the same job now only corpuscarii do it way better. Sure you slightly outgun the infiltrators but your paying more pts for no extra durability and that's already the biggest downside of infiltrators - they are too glass cannony. For me they would be worth it at the point they render corpuscarii and infiltrators worthless because they perform the same function. and right now corpuscarii got buffed to being most efficient infantry clearers, the combined firepower of all the cognis stubbers in my army second, massed vanguard 3rd (till 9th), raiders 4th infiltrators 5th and then pteraxi and im just not getting that far down the list

I also hadn't noticed the taser goad change but that just makes both units worse and probably makes infiltrators a poor choice rather than justifying pteraxi so that's one existing unit obsoleted although maybe not as a single in a mixed detachment

The stratoraptor for me is good for it's durability and manoeuvrability. The grators have better firepower but it's not an either or situation come 9th I'm considering 3 of each and 3 onagers swap my troops for flyers (as im not a mars castle player)

Problem with sulphurs is I don't see the point in them unless i have maxed out raiders and by then I'm cutting in to the artillery pts wise

So you could have Mars bots and Stygies vehicles, and the Stygies vehicles would benefit from the Mars Canticle, hmm

My heart is breaking so hard that I can't find a way to justify Sulphurhounds. I wanted so bad to want them, even pre-ordered 2 boxes out of a desire to run a squad of 6 or two units of 3, but the raiders just seem so. much. better.

Those of you way more tactically verse than me, I am open to any and all justification for Sulphurhounds.

Maybe because i play almost exclusively maelstrom missions i just dont see the value in raiders. Sure, theyre faster and will get in the enemy's face pretty much immediately even if you dont Stygies them up 9" before their 12" free movement (technically 12+D6 because "as your movement phase" indicates they can advance if im not mistaken) but they have absolute garbage weapons and arent exactly difficult to remove so theyre just gonna die really quick and not do much unless youre against orks or guard and reached a character, as they have low enough armor to be afraid of the AP0 (the mortal wounds simply will not happen enough w/o a full squad to realistically kill a character fast enough).

Getting to an objective immediately is rarely a requirement for me. That must be why i just dont get the praise for raiders.

Yeah I think when you look at the comparative ITC mission sets as an example, there's a lot more emphasis on taking/holding objectives; whereas with Maelstrom missions (which I also mostly play) you get a variety of things you might have to achieve, but the maneuverability of Raiders could still be a real benefit.

They're also a distraction. It's not uncommon for someone to react against the first thing that comes running at them, so for their cheap points value they could be a huge magnet.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Maybe because i play almost exclusively maelstrom missions i just dont see the value in raiders. Sure, theyre faster and will get in the enemy's face pretty much immediately even if you dont Stygies them up 9" before their 12" free movement (technically 12+D6 because "as your movement phase" indicates they can advance if im not mistaken) but they have absolute garbage weapons and arent exactly difficult to remove so theyre just gonna die really quick and not do much unless youre against orks or guard and reached a character, as they have low enough armor to be afraid of the AP0 (the mortal wounds simply will not happen enough w/o a full squad to realistically kill a character fast enough).

Getting to an objective immediately is rarely a requirement for me. That must be why i just dont get the praise for raiders.

But the amount of wounds you get per point is a big seller to me.
Skitarii Rangers are 7 pts per W, Raiders are 4,7 pts per W, beating even Ruststalkers at 5,5pts per W.

So even if they die, which they will in the end, it takes quite a bit of volume of shots to take them down which would otherwise go into your transuranic arquebi in the back.

So anything that isn't 3 Damage is either treating them effectively as 2W by absorbing 2 or 3 shots to bring one down at a really good price point.
For me, they add a LOT of mobility that, due to low offence, is not a priority for the enemy to take down and can zoom around the battlefield for objective shenanigans, shooing troops of objectives and taking them themselves.
Which also is kind of the point for Sulphurhounds, since they' do the same thing, but differently and more offensively minded.

though i have to admit the stratagem allowing them to Fall Back as well is amusing.
If they are contesting an objective and something proper mean shows up to charge them they can just...leave. And still shoot/charge next turn since it wasnt their turn they fell back.

Now that i think about it it kind of reminds me of my old Piranha wall tactics with tau. I brought them purely to be annoying, they generally didnt kill anything but were stupid difficult to get rid of for their cost, ending up being a literal waste of time to get rid of in the end but because they were in the way they HAD to be taken out first.

I probably should make my cavalry raiders. Flat3 damage isnt that common unless its a proper anti-vehicle gun, and if youre firing that at my raiders either i stuck their nose out like an idiot and they were the only target or you are wasting shots. Minus orks of course, rokkits generally cant reach said tanks early on so they'll take whatever multiwound target they can get.

U02dah4 wrote:
Pre faq thats how it works canticle wise and it could be a legitimate design choice that limits you to only one for your army based on your actual warlord. Plus doing it that way is an anti soup measure as having an out of faction warlord means you dont get a new canticle. Also from a fluff perspective marines chapters are more insular than forgeworlds just look at the mechanicus computer game could be representing a stygies dominous uploading his psalm code altering behaviour instantly rather than a space marine doctrine which would take a long time for a marine to change its learned behaviour. I read as intentional.

The taser goad ups the pteraxi by a ppmish on a squad of 5 half a point on 10
Mars infiltrators and lucius corpuscarii do the same job now only corpuscarii do it way better. Sure you slightly outgun the infiltrators but your paying more pts for no extra durability and that's already the biggest downside of infiltrators - they are too glass cannony. For me they would be worth it at the point they render corpuscarii and infiltrators worthless because they perform the same function. and right now corpuscarii got buffed to being most efficient infantry clearers, the combined firepower of all the cognis stubbers in my army second, massed vanguard 3rd (till 9th), raiders 4th infiltrators 5th and then pteraxi and im just not getting that far down the list

I also hadn't noticed the taser goad change but that just makes both units worse and probably makes infiltrators a poor choice rather than justifying pteraxi so that's one existing unit obsoleted although maybe not as a single in a mixed detachment

The stratoraptor for me is good for it's durability and manoeuvrability. The grators have better firepower but it's not an either or situation come 9th I'm considering 3 of each and 3 onagers swap my troops for flyers (as im not a mars castle player)

Problem with sulphurs is I don't see the point in them unless i have maxed out raiders and by then I'm cutting in to the artillery pts wise

I think "slightly" is the wrong word to use 12" range flechette blasters to 24" range flechette carbines is exactly a 100% increase, the extra foot of threat range is quite a lot seeing how everyone loves the extra 3/6" range from Manipulus/other abilities and army traits. Not only does it increase the range but it also helps the unit not get obliterated by Auspex scan/Infoslave skull/Early warning override and any other ability like the aformentioned ones (except Forewarned ). Furthermore it allows them to reach targets that have been safely screened out from deepstriking units getting within range (and lets do a honourable mention to SM Infilitrators that will zone you out by 12" instead of 9" which entirely shuts down both Corpuscarii and Infiltrators. Of course this all applies to Sterylizors too but more on that later).

You could preplan and flare the Manipulus up the board a turn ahead to get either of those 2 units +3" range, but thats not very likely. 10-20 Corpuscarii are good, especially with the 1CP for Electrostatic, Overcharge, a 5++ 5+++ all for 12ppm but they arent world beaters by themselves (already its 2CP just for the teleport and overcharge) and in light of 9th edition, we have no idea what the general CP allowance will be, if multiple subfactions/detachments cost CP, or if there is a generic interceptor-like strat out that helps the armies that dont have access to firing at units arriving by deepstrike. For all we know there could be a new Admech codex 3 months away from now that changes the 6+ to a flat 6 for their gauntlets just how it looks like taser will be. We already kinda know pts will be changing come the new edition, whether its day 1 with FAQ's thats a different story.

Back to the pts issue I still dont get the issue with Skystalkers.... You pay a 1 off 4pt option to have pretty much better abilities across the board... 75pts for 5 Infiltrators, 79pts for 5 Skystalkers, a 5.06% increase. At 10 models that 150pts to 154pts is now a 2.6% increase, thats just barely anything. For either percentage your getting 4" better movement with fly, inbuilt MW production which only 1 model in the unit needs to partially fly over for the whole unit to drop bombs, a redeploy during the battle, 12" extra range on the guns and access to a 1CP stratagem that Infiltrators dont even get a unique one for them. Factor in the above about intercept from various stratagems and then the larger threat range from deepstrike and general movement (16").... Yeah its not even a clear contest, Skystalkers are leagues ahead its not even funny.... Even if we go talk about melee... its a 27.78% chance either unit will make a 9" charge from deepstrike, not something you can plan towards, and if you somehow get a +1.... thats a 41.67%.... I wouldnt even bother with a CP reroll By no stretch of the imagination am I saying Skystalkers broken, I wouldnt ever use them tbh, just like I dont use Infiltrators anymore. But for literally 4pts more they make Infiltrators obsolete, unless your tryna fill out a brigade, but we have el cheapo Servitors for that!

If you wanna use Wrath of Mars, and for some reason your nor slapping it on Kastellans, then Skystalkers would be the next best/safe option. You could argue Corpuscarii, but in a competitve setting you cant risk a unit getting blasted to the shadow realm as soon as they to do their job. Ive been on the receiving end of Aggressors, Dark Reapers and numerous other shoot you when you appear 12" away armies... If Corpuscarii work for you! Great! Loving seeing people use Elctro-priests! I just dont see them as being viable except Fulgurites but thats a different topic.

Stratoraptor im still not convinced, Id rather take Balistarii and thats saying something haha!! now cognis pretty much has no downside, your -1 to hit anyway with the chickens when you move so you might aswell advance, or just stand/move still next to a Fabrications of the Artisan warlord and Manipulus for AP 2 autocannons / AP 4 lascannons at str 8/10 for Mars.... If the heavy phosphor blasters pts cost isnt a typo than the Raptor is 114-134pts, thats 2 twin autocannon Balistarii, and nearly 2 twin lascannon ones. If it is a typo then your looking at 144-164pts which is tooooooo much, its already overcosted! Atleast the chickens can all get +1 to hit instead of just 1 Raptor, and then a further +1 to wound vs titanic whenever that would crop up.

If I were to rate the new units from highest to lowest itd be:

Good - Sterylizors/Raiders/Fusilave
Ok - Skystalkers/Hounds
Bad - Stratoraptor/Transvector




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Maybe because i play almost exclusively maelstrom missions i just dont see the value in raiders. Sure, theyre faster and will get in the enemy's face pretty much immediately even if you dont Stygies them up 9" before their 12" free movement (technically 12+D6 because "as your movement phase" indicates they can advance if im not mistaken) but they have absolute garbage weapons and arent exactly difficult to remove so theyre just gonna die really quick and not do much unless youre against orks or guard and reached a character, as they have low enough armor to be afraid of the AP0 (the mortal wounds simply will not happen enough w/o a full squad to realistically kill a character fast enough).

Getting to an objective immediately is rarely a requirement for me. That must be why i just dont get the praise for raiders.

Tbh I think we need to stop viewing units with 8th in mind, we have no idea how missions will change, it maelstom stays and if ITC/ETC will even be around or stick to the new edition. As hard as that sounds truly, planning for an 8th ed style list is kind of pointless. Your lists today might not work tomorrow. I dunno about anyone else but im not buying, playing or list building until 9th drops and we have solid information to start basing army lists and tactics from. We will probs need a refreshed tactica too.

Im like you Vineheart, I played Maestrom an CA missions at tournments as ngl, I dont like ITC/ETC. I find the games boring and flat. Raiders are good at what they do (that isnt shooting haha!) but is it key to the missions we play. Not everything should be judged on its ITC merits. When I go Throne of Skulls and around 5 other events each year, it isnt ITC.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Maybe because i play almost exclusively maelstrom missions i just dont see the value in raiders. Sure, theyre faster and will get in the enemy's face pretty much immediately even if you dont Stygies them up 9" before their 12" free movement (technically 12+D6 because "as your movement phase" indicates they can advance if im not mistaken) but they have absolute garbage weapons and arent exactly difficult to remove so theyre just gonna die really quick and not do much unless youre against orks or guard and reached a character, as they have low enough armor to be afraid of the AP0 (the mortal wounds simply will not happen enough w/o a full squad to realistically kill a character fast enough).

Getting to an objective immediately is rarely a requirement for me. That must be why i just dont get the praise for raiders.

im a board control player one you have an objective the enemy have to kill you to get it that delays them. also with a 24" move and one advance and a charge my strategy if going fist will often be to charge the enemy t1 hopefully sniping a vulnerable character or two. by engageing there screens in CC it will leave a lot of lists stuck in their deployment zone till atleast t2. by which time maelstrom or itc im holding a lot of objectives.

I know having to take one of the custom Forgeworlds for this tactic might invalidate it competitively, but I want to share it anyway:
Rad-saturated world with secondary which makes rad-saturation aura 3" would allow Sulphurhounds to run up to a unit's face (but not get into CC) and unload their 2+1d6 shots against -1 toughness.
That's qualitatively different from Sterylizors (even if not better).

Do you think it could make them more viable?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

U02dah4 wrote:

im a board control player one you have an objective the enemy have to kill you to get it that delays them. also with a 24" move and one advance and a charge my strategy if going fist will often be to charge the enemy t1 hopefully sniping a vulnerable character or two. by engageing there screens in CC it will leave a lot of lists stuck in their deployment zone till atleast t2. by which time maelstrom or itc im holding a lot of objectives.

Sniping one character or two? You don't mean by using Raiders alone, right? 9 of them won't statistically kill a 5w SM character in a turn. I guess you meant in combination with transuranics.
Getting to an objective immediately is rarely a requirement for me. That must be why i just dont get the praise for raiders

 deffrekka wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
Pre faq thats how it works canticle wise and it could be a legitimate design choice that limits you to only one for your army based on your actual warlord. Plus doing it that way is an anti soup measure as having an out of faction warlord means you dont get a new canticle. Also from a fluff perspective marines chapters are more insular than forgeworlds just look at the mechanicus computer game could be representing a stygies dominous uploading his psalm code altering behaviour instantly rather than a space marine doctrine which would take a long time for a marine to change its learned behaviour. I read as intentional.

The taser goad ups the pteraxi by a ppmish on a squad of 5 half a point on 10
Mars infiltrators and lucius corpuscarii do the same job now only corpuscarii do it way better. Sure you slightly outgun the infiltrators but your paying more pts for no extra durability and that's already the biggest downside of infiltrators - they are too glass cannony. For me they would be worth it at the point they render corpuscarii and infiltrators worthless because they perform the same function. and right now corpuscarii got buffed to being most efficient infantry clearers, the combined firepower of all the cognis stubbers in my army second, massed vanguard 3rd (till 9th), raiders 4th infiltrators 5th and then pteraxi and im just not getting that far down the list

I also hadn't noticed the taser goad change but that just makes both units worse and probably makes infiltrators a poor choice rather than justifying pteraxi so that's one existing unit obsoleted although maybe not as a single in a mixed detachment

The stratoraptor for me is good for it's durability and manoeuvrability. The grators have better firepower but it's not an either or situation come 9th I'm considering 3 of each and 3 onagers swap my troops for flyers (as im not a mars castle player)

Problem with sulphurs is I don't see the point in them unless i have maxed out raiders and by then I'm cutting in to the artillery pts wise

I think "slightly" is the wrong word to use 12" range flechette blasters to 24" range flechette carbines is exactly a 100% increase, the extra foot of threat range is quite a lot seeing how everyone loves the extra 3/6" range from Manipulus/other abilities and army traits. Not only does it increase the range but it also helps the unit not get obliterated by Auspex scan/Infoslave skull/Early warning override and any other ability like the aformentioned ones (except Forewarned ). Furthermore it allows them to reach targets that have been safely screened out from deepstriking units getting within range (and lets do a honourable mention to SM Infilitrators that will zone you out by 12" instead of 9" which entirely shuts down both Corpuscarii and Infiltrators. Of course this all applies to Sterylizors too but more on that later).

You could preplan and flare the Manipulus up the board a turn ahead to get either of those 2 units +3" range, but thats not very likely. 10-20 Corpuscarii are good, especially with the 1CP for Electrostatic, Overcharge, a 5++ 5+++ all for 12ppm but they arent world beaters by themselves (already its 2CP just for the teleport and overcharge) and in light of 9th edition, we have no idea what the general CP allowance will be, if multiple subfactions/detachments cost CP, or if there is a generic interceptor-like strat out that helps the armies that dont have access to firing at units arriving by deepstrike. For all we know there could be a new Admech codex 3 months away from now that changes the 6+ to a flat 6 for their gauntlets just how it looks like taser will be. We already kinda know pts will be changing come the new edition, whether its day 1 with FAQ's thats a different story.

Back to the pts issue I still dont get the issue with Skystalkers.... You pay a 1 off 4pt option to have pretty much better abilities across the board... 75pts for 5 Infiltrators, 79pts for 5 Skystalkers, a 5.06% increase. At 10 models that 150pts to 154pts is now a 2.6% increase, thats just barely anything. For either percentage your getting 4" better movement with fly, inbuilt MW production which only 1 model in the unit needs to partially fly over for the whole unit to drop bombs, a redeploy during the battle, 12" extra range on the guns and access to a 1CP stratagem that Infiltrators dont even get a unique one for them. Factor in the above about intercept from various stratagems and then the larger threat range from deepstrike and general movement (16").... Yeah its not even a clear contest, Skystalkers are leagues ahead its not even funny.... Even if we go talk about melee... its a 27.78% chance either unit will make a 9" charge from deepstrike, not something you can plan towards, and if you somehow get a +1.... thats a 41.67%.... I wouldnt even bother with a CP reroll By no stretch of the imagination am I saying Skystalkers broken, I wouldnt ever use them tbh, just like I dont use Infiltrators anymore. But for literally 4pts more they make Infiltrators obsolete, unless your tryna fill out a brigade, but we have el cheapo Servitors for that!

If you wanna use Wrath of Mars, and for some reason your nor slapping it on Kastellans, then Skystalkers would be the next best/safe option. You could argue Corpuscarii, but in a competitve setting you cant risk a unit getting blasted to the shadow realm as soon as they to do their job. Ive been on the receiving end of Aggressors, Dark Reapers and numerous other shoot you when you appear 12" away armies... If Corpuscarii work for you! Great! Loving seeing people use Elctro-priests! I just dont see them as being viable except Fulgurites but thats a different topic.

Stratoraptor im still not convinced, Id rather take Balistarii and thats saying something haha!! now cognis pretty much has no downside, your -1 to hit anyway with the chickens when you move so you might aswell advance, or just stand/move still next to a Fabrications of the Artisan warlord and Manipulus for AP 2 autocannons / AP 4 lascannons at str 8/10 for Mars.... If the heavy phosphor blasters pts cost isnt a typo than the Raptor is 114-134pts, thats 2 twin autocannon Balistarii, and nearly 2 twin lascannon ones. If it is a typo then your looking at 144-164pts which is tooooooo much, its already overcosted! Atleast the chickens can all get +1 to hit instead of just 1 Raptor, and then a further +1 to wound vs titanic whenever that would crop up.

If I were to rate the new units from highest to lowest itd be:

Good - Sterylizors/Raiders/Fusilave
Ok - Skystalkers/Hounds
Bad - Stratoraptor/Transvector




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Maybe because i play almost exclusively maelstrom missions i just dont see the value in raiders. Sure, theyre faster and will get in the enemy's face pretty much immediately even if you dont Stygies them up 9" before their 12" free movement (technically 12+D6 because "as your movement phase" indicates they can advance if im not mistaken) but they have absolute garbage weapons and arent exactly difficult to remove so theyre just gonna die really quick and not do much unless youre against orks or guard and reached a character, as they have low enough armor to be afraid of the AP0 (the mortal wounds simply will not happen enough w/o a full squad to realistically kill a character fast enough).

Getting to an objective immediately is rarely a requirement for me. That must be why i just dont get the praise for raiders.

Tbh I think we need to stop viewing units with 8th in mind, we have no idea how missions will change, it maelstom stays and if ITC/ETC will even be around or stick to the new edition. As hard as that sounds truly, planning for an 8th ed style list is kind of pointless. Your lists today might not work tomorrow. I dunno about anyone else but im not buying, playing or list building until 9th drops and we have solid information to start basing army lists and tactics from. We will probs need a refreshed tactica too.

Im like you Vineheart, I played Maestrom an CA missions at tournments as ngl, I dont like ITC/ETC. I find the games boring and flat. Raiders are good at what they do (that isnt shooting haha!) but is it key to the missions we play. Not everything should be judged on its ITC merits. When I go Throne of Skulls and around 5 other events each year, it isnt ITC.

extra range beyond 12" makes little difference when you drop in shoot and fail to survive a second turn as you lack durability your anti infantry so your hitting the screens not the units being screened. they cant zone you out because you take this unit to deal with zoners.

9th ed isn't here yet and their is not enough information to make informed choices about it as any number of announced changes could radically change things. 8th post engine war pre 9th we can meaningfully discuss. Once we have 9th rules any units can be reevaluated.

they are on flying baces and durability wise very expensive any competent opponent will shoot them off the table and at their height your not going to hide them. so one round of fire and screen clearance is what you get. redeploy ability is worthless largely because you get one shot and then your opponent kills them flying 4" extra movement doesn't matter you drop in you fire one shot then you die. bombs sound ok but wait one second you drop in you fire once you die you dont get to bomb.

so yes lets compare to lucius corpuscarii 308pts for 20 vs 240pts for corpuscarii. or 68pts difference at about 20% saving but corpuscarii cost 2 cp one to Ds and 1 for 2ap assuming RR1's from canticle

corpuscarii 66Hits S5 AP2 Skystalkers 33 hits S3 AP0 I agree theirs no comparison corpuscarii are more pts efficient and clear screens better. even if you dont pay the cp for ap2 its still 66hits s5 vs 33hits s3 at a 20% pts reduction

while in CC if you make the charge Corpuscarii can atleast finish up 50hits S5 vs 6hits s5 and 21 s3 again not even close

because as you say you get "blasted to the shadow realm as soon as you WoM" infiltrators still outperform skystalkers if you use that strategy identical shooting / durability 2.6% increase in cost is still 2.6% worse. however because they will sometimes make the charge 10 taser goads is going to be way more effective than 1 taser goad making infiltrators significantly better.

your strategy only works if your opponent doesn't understand target priority or your board has really dense terrain tall enough to block los to flying bases


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DanielFM wrote:
I know having to take one of the custom Forgeworlds for this tactic might invalidate it competitively, but I want to share it anyway:
Rad-saturated world with secondary which makes rad-saturation aura 3" would allow Sulphurhounds to run up to a unit's face (but not get into CC) and unload their 2+1d6 shots against -1 toughness.
That's qualitatively different from Sterylizors (even if not better).

Do you think it could make them more viable?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

U02dah4 wrote:

im a board control player one you have an objective the enemy have to kill you to get it that delays them. also with a 24" move and one advance and a charge my strategy if going fist will often be to charge the enemy t1 hopefully sniping a vulnerable character or two. by engageing there screens in CC it will leave a lot of lists stuck in their deployment zone till atleast t2. by which time maelstrom or itc im holding a lot of objectives.

Sniping one character or two? You don't mean by using Raiders alone, right? 9 of them won't statistically kill a 5w SM character in a turn. I guess you meant in combination with transuranics.
Getting to an objective immediately is rarely a requirement for me. That must be why i just dont get the praise for raiders

no i mean raiders alone but i am thinking of running 3 units of 7 and not all characters are as tough as sm think guard, aeldari etc

but vs sm thats 4.5 Mw 4.5 ap1sv and 9 full sv assuming no buffs thats 2 sm characters by expectancy

hower in reality i would be using the new warlord traits to improve efficiency

Holy crap, three units of seven is $420 USD. I just bought a bunch of Admech, and am strongly reconsidering my decision. This is making my GSC and Nids look cheap.

I can get an Alienware laptop for the projected cost of the units I want...