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@yukishiro1

Genestealer cult are never worse than 1.5pts per model unless you don't give cc weapons to the acolytes. Admech has moved much closer to $1 per point with this release. The only boxsets that's better than $1.5 per point with common builds are the basic troop box and the big robots. Kataphrons depend on which build out of the box.

@vineheart01

You literally can't charge a unit of the raiders so they don't need to be good in cc. They'll never get touched as long as you have a cp. That said the sulfur hounds would actually be pretty good in cc. 2 st4 -1, 1 st3 no ap attack per model and then shooting 2 st4 -1 pistols and adding that to d6 flamer hits isn't bad at all. The real issue is that the raiders are so much better and for significantly less.

Breachers and Fulgurites are still our best screening units. Raiders are also durable and fast, very low key useful--sort of like Breachers. Not sure if Sterilyzors can compete; they seem to be ideal for jumping around the board to grab objectives and harass units.

In terms of stratagems, the Distintegrator stratagem is great. Evacuation Sequence is also just pure value-added. Pattern Iteration Identified makes a small unit of Las Striders into Titan Slayers.

Mars is definitely the clear winner of the FW options. Most lists rely on Heavy weapons, and the Cawl rerolls are just too good. And +1S is huge because from my personal experience, our lists struggle against high toughness armies because so many of our weapons cap out at S6. I crunched the numbers, and I think the two biggest beneficiaries are Boats and Breachers. S5 Stubbers are MEAN. It's just the thing to wipe out small units of Marines. And sooo many of the targets that Breachers want to shoot at are T7.

The other Forge Worlds will require you to build your list a specific way or for a specific purpose. But because the Holy Order keywords are all FW coded, it's best to just pick one.

What other than that stratagem makes the raiders better? Only the alpha has that rude pistol and their rifle feels pretty lame to me. Being able to shoot a character is nice but with 0 AP on all except 1 shot, unless you get a wound roll of a 6 then its ap1, they arent going to kill a character except Ork ones that have no save in the first place. Yeah they cause mortals on a 6 but with only a maximum of 16 S4 AP0 and 1 S5 Ap2 2D shots, which isnt really super cheap, i still dont see them killing a character unless theres a big + to wound im missing they have access to and/or extreme dice luck. The only + to wound im seeing is Ironstrider specific.

Oversight on the Sulphurhounds perhaps? Their pistoleers ability just says they can fire pistols even if they advanced, but it says nothing about a -1 to hit. That -1 to hit is only stock to Assault weapons.

Which means, RAW, they shoot at BS3+.

I'm severely disappointed with the custom Forgeworlds. I was expecting more than just three, especially given how narrow in scope the perks are. They don't include any unique Relics, Stratagems, or Canticles, so you're already starting at a disadvantage with them (and that didn't need to be the case, they could have added one of each!).

My initial impression of Radiant Disciples was it was strictly worse than Stygies, so the secondary had to make up for it. For secondaries: buffing Rad-saturation doesn't matter, buffing "radium" weapons only affects Vanguard (and Sydonian Dragoons, but they don't benefit from Radian Disciples), and the other two are so bad I won't even discuss them. So I don't see a way to make a good list where this better than Stygies.

Expansion is at least interesting. The primary could at least conceivably benefit the whole army, so that's a step in the right direction, but I don't think it's particularly good by itself. However, I think you could actually make an army out of Forward Operations or Acquisitive Reach if you heavily commit to Rangers. Forward Operations seems more interesting for re-deployment shenanigans than actual movement, since you could just take a transport (and Vanguard) if you wanted to go fast. Acquisitive Reach actually gets interesting with a Manipulus, putting Rangers up to 42" of range. The problem with both those options is they have anti-synergy with the Primary, since you're encouraged to take more Rangers but Rangers don't want to fight in close combat. Again, the last two secondaries aren't worth talking about.

I think Data-horde is the most viable because it actually broadly applies to several of AdMech's best units. A 6+ FNP on vehicles is fine. The movement and Arc weapon secondaries are utterly worthless. Healing 1 wound at the start of each turn is maybe good, or I might be confused because it actually has synergy with the primary unlike literally every other secondary. Servo-focused Augaries is probably the best option out of the custom Forgeworlds period since you can build a reasonable army where both the primary and secondary affect all the prominent units. (And it blows my mind that none of the other options even come that close to being playable.) Of course, let me stress, that Servo-focused army would consist principally of the new flyers, Ironstrider Ballistari, and Skorpius Duneriders; it would be merely playable with a coherent synergy, not good.

What the hell happened? These "choices" are so half-baked that most of them can be discarded out of hand. They barely even express a narrative because there are so few effects to your choice. GW really hamstrung themselves by not including any relics OR stratagems OR Warlord traits OR canticles.

I dunno why you would want to screen with 14 point electropriests when you could screen with 17 point sterylizors that just do it vastly better in every way. I mean I don't know that we're even using the word to mean the same thing if electropriests could be a screening unit. Literally anything screens better than electropriests. Electropriests are only good when they're charging stuff and getting to fight first before they get wiped out.

The raiders are the big competition with the sterylizors IMO, because of that wicked pre-game move. The fall-back-when-charged strat is also great, but 2CP is super expensive, and the unit itself is so cheap, that I think usually the only reason you'd use it is if you're afraid of getting wrapped.

The main selling point of the sterylizors is they are an unwrappable screen - AFAIK the only completely unwrappable screen in the game in the sense that they can automatically escape any trap, which no other unit I am aware of can do - and that is hugely valuable. There are whole lists that 3x5 sterylizors will essentially win you the game against because they just can't deal with unwrappable screens that block off their movement. And if you aren't playing one of those lists...you just keep them in DS and drop them down to incinerate things instead, so the points aren't wasted the way the raider points are wasted against a list where you don't need the screening.

Screening units are units that prevent enemies from getting close enough to charge your gunline, right? Fulgurites in Boats definitely do that.

I dunno, multiple MSU Sterilyzors seems trivially easy to remove in shooting. T3 W2 4+/6++ is not that great a defensive statline; Breachers would be a lot more efficient outside of a Boat. I cannot imagine using them to screen; they seem better in the air, looking for an objective to hold or some isolated unit to pick off.

Fulgurites in Boats and Breachers are also incredibly difficult to wrap.

I guess I don't really get it. A boat doesn't take up enough space to screen well. It can be a physical barrier if you set it up a couple inches front of your gunline to stop a charger from being able to get in to what's behind it (though this doesn't work well against armies that can fight twice and/or consolidate 6"), especially if you have two or three to put in a row to do it with so they can't just go around. But that's not really screening. Screening is about taking up space on the board to limit your opponent's ability to move and DS. You'd have to get the priests out of the boat to screen off a significant amount of space, and then they just die, so you'd be better off using anything else.

You bring four Boats and anchor them along LOS blockers; another Boat is a LOS blocker. You want to forward deploy them along the edge of your deployment zone.

I think you are describing a sort of defensive playstyle that hasn't really been competitive for awhile. Fact is, AdMech stopped being the hottest gunline when the Marine Supplements dropped. If you wanted to win, you had to switch to a more mobile and transactional playstyle. Use your gunline to make good trades and allow your infantry to win the game for you.

On that note, my first take on a list, and it doesn't use any of the new units:

Basically, you've got a big castle with 3 Crawlers, 3 Grators, 2x5 Breachers being buffed by Cawl, Daeda, and the Holy Order Friends. I determined that only three of the four are particularly useful for this army.

Crawlers and Grators take down flyers, infantry, and even vehicles super easily now. The Breachers are specifically for killing vehicles, and they got that double Haywire going; they also provide a screen for the tanks if they need to bug out.

You also have two paired Boats containing Vanguard and Fulgurites to screen alphas and then move out to grab objectives.

EDIT: Also, I am pretty certain they got the Phosphor Blast Pistol and the Heavy Phosphor Blasters mixed up, and the Stratoraptor may already be priced correctly.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
What other than that stratagem makes the raiders better? Only the alpha has that rude pistol and their rifle feels pretty lame to me. Being able to shoot a character is nice but with 0 AP on all except 1 shot, unless you get a wound roll of a 6 then its ap1, they arent going to kill a character except Ork ones that have no save in the first place. Yeah they cause mortals on a 6 but with only a maximum of 16 S4 AP0 and 1 S5 Ap2 2D shots, which isnt really super cheap, i still dont see them killing a character unless theres a big + to wound im missing they have access to and/or extreme dice luck. The only + to wound im seeing is Ironstrider specific.

I wholeheartedly agree. They are "9 cheap wounds that control board through scout move and die to a stiff breeze". They bring literally nothing more to the table. Their sniper shooting is a joke, it can't realistically damage characters not force them to hide. They are mediocre in close combat.
Maybe I'm missing the nuances of pro-player tactical maneuvering.

Is it just me or do Serberys Raiders have the ability of the enhanced data tether, but no option to take it?
The Datasheet does not allow it as far as I can tell...

No they can, its the literal one option they do have. "One model can have an Enhanced Data Tether"

Unless you did the custom dogma for +1 LD instead of the reroll i have no idea why you'd want that. Only a max squad is actually going to suffer leadership issues potential. The +1LD at least can mess with effects that target your LD, the normal Tether just lets you reroll in the morale phase.

I legit dont see why Raiders are good. They feel like a trap to me. That strat is awesome but its 2CP and i'd see opponents trying to force you to do it just to burn your CP as much as they can.

Ah. Good old case of blindness then.

Usually I took tethers for the +2 to hit but.. well.
Yeah, pretty useless now.

My plan for the raiders is to take (2?) smaller squads and use them to push forward for deny deep strike or Objectives turn 1.

most likely not bothering for the fallback strat. although I could see it being used if I want to grab an objective late game - let someone charge me and I could use that to slingshot the raiders to the objective?

also I suspect there will need to be a way to remember what Holy Order aura you are going to be using (and/or to help your opponent remember as well?).

As such, I found an ebay seller who does custom metal tokens (see photo) which may be of interest? you might just need to message directly to ask for custom tokens - he created these mockups of the tokens in advance of an order.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/usr/the_woodlandking

jesus the amount of buffing you can put on Mars dakkabots now is kinda silly..

Cawl is around for all rerolls
Character1 Warlord has Diviniation of the Magos, for exploding 6s
Character2 Strat Warlord Trait has Analysis of the Logos for wound of a 6 makes their gun AP3 instead of 2 (Alternate: Fabrications of the Artisan for half-range AP+1 and a fallback and still shoot option in case they get charged)
Mars Canticle, its now S7 guns, and since its replacing one Cawl can easily make you get it almost every turn.
One of those characters = Manipulus for extra dakka reach
Wrath of Mars strat for Mortals on a 6.

Thats just scary lol

 Vineheart01 wrote:
jesus the amount of buffing you can put on Mars dakkabots now is kinda silly..

Cawl is around for all rerolls
Character1 Warlord has Diviniation of the Magos, for exploding 6s
Character2 Strat Warlord Trait has Analysis of the Logos for wound of a 6 makes their gun AP3 instead of 2 (Alternate: Fabrications of the Artisan for half-range AP+1 and a fallback and still shoot option in case they get charged)
Mars Canticle, its now S7 guns, and since its replacing one Cawl can easily make you get it almost every turn.
One of those characters = Manipulus for extra dakka reach
Wrath of Mars strat for Mortals on a 6.

Thats just scary lol

And my understanding is that 9th edition will allow vehicles like Dakkabots to shoot from melee in some capacity. Previously their greatest weakness was something tagging them.

Thoughts on 2k Graian Horde list?

Brigade(Graia):

Dominus (Biosplicer, Phosphoenix)
Manipulus (Magos, Omniscient Mask)
Daedalosus

21 Breachers (3 squads of 7, base loadout)
45 Vanguard (9 squads of 5, base loadout)

Datasmith (Genetor, Warlord, Raiment of Technomartyr)
10 Ruststalkers with chordclaws (1 squad of 10)
8 Servitors (base loadout)

15 Skystalkers (3 squads of 5, base loadout)
3 Sulphurhounds (1 squad of 3, base loadout)

3 Neutronagers

Hahaha oh man, I take back what I said, those prices truly are ridiculous. Even worse than GSC. I like how the cavalry is so expensive even GW itself gets it wrong about how many models the kit produces on the pre-order page because even they can't seem to believe you really only get 3 cavalry for $60. $60 for 44 points. Jebus.

And that $100 copter...LOL.

One thing I just noticed as a plus to the Raiders, the MW sniper component is on a 6+ and you can add an enhanced data tether to the unit. So although there aren't hundreds of shot coming out of a unit you're getting MW in addition on a 4+ for 1cp

I also quite fancy that Ruststalkers strategm to switch board edges with them. Keep them back to protect the gunline then strategically switch them to my opponents board edge to take an objective or tag some artillery.

That's if I can fit them in now, that's going to be the worst thing now, we were already jockeying to fit all our cool stuff in, now we have even more cool stuff!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh another thing i'm cautious about at the moment is the wording for the assignment of a Holy order Warlord trait is "If an adeptus mechanicus character is your warlord you can select a warlord trait from below for them" The mechanicus locum strategm specifically mentions using it AFTER you've selected your warlord. The strategem only says that the model is treated as your warlord for the purposes of resolving the trait. Not that it actually IS your warlord. So I'm anticipating an errata or faq to clarify that and we'll end up only being able to pick one holy order and it'll have to be on our warlord. As it stands there's no way in hell you'd pick one of the regular warlord traits otherwise, why bother when the holy orders are so much better? It just seems wrong to allow more than one, which more than likely means it is.

MW sniper is a 6+ wound roll, not hit roll.

Octovol wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh another thing i'm cautious about at the moment is the wording for the assignment of a Holy order Warlord trait is "If an adeptus mechanicus character is your warlord you can select a warlord trait from below for them" The mechanicus locum strategm specifically mentions using it AFTER you've selected your warlord. The strategem only says that the model is treated as your warlord for the purposes of resolving the trait. Not that it actually IS your warlord. So I'm anticipating an errata or faq to clarify that and we'll end up only being able to pick one holy order and it'll have to be on our warlord. As it stands there's no way in hell you'd pick one of the regular warlord traits otherwise, why bother when the holy orders are so much better? It just seems wrong to allow more than one, which more than likely means it is.

I'm not too worried about it, there are far more blatant rules out there that have gone unnoticed for months. I think the ability to take more than one ordos is intentional.

yukishiro1 wrote:
MW sniper is a 6+ wound roll, not hit roll.

Gah, you're right. and that +1 to wound strat is on balistarii as well, so doesn't work for dragoon snipers either. Ah well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LexOdin9 wrote:

Octovol wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh another thing i'm cautious about at the moment is the wording for the assignment of a Holy order Warlord trait is "If an adeptus mechanicus character is your warlord you can select a warlord trait from below for them" The mechanicus locum strategm specifically mentions using it AFTER you've selected your warlord. The strategem only says that the model is treated as your warlord for the purposes of resolving the trait. Not that it actually IS your warlord. So I'm anticipating an errata or faq to clarify that and we'll end up only being able to pick one holy order and it'll have to be on our warlord. As it stands there's no way in hell you'd pick one of the regular warlord traits otherwise, why bother when the holy orders are so much better? It just seems wrong to allow more than one, which more than likely means it is.

I'm not too worried about it, there are far more blatant rules out there that have gone unnoticed for months. I think the ability to take more than one ordos is intentional.

Curious why you think it's intentional? I could see it being an oversight they let slide, but intentional? So you're saying that fluff-wise a force of admech would dedicate itself to 2 holy orders at once? I could see them letting it slide as one per detachment but 2 within the same detachment? I guess it all depends on whether it's the force (detachment) or the character that is pledging to the holy order. Like a lot of stuff in this release, it's needlessly vague, would it kill them to just itemise subject, effect, range, duration on things instead of just trying to explain them in sentences that are open to interpretation?

Lore-wise, it's more like a personal philosophy for the commander than an actual hierarchy for the faction. "Yet even as subcults, movements and schisms are in constant flux, four Holy Orders are commonly recognized on the majority of Forge Worlds."

What's the latest verdict on the number of bombs the flyboys drop? Is it one per flyboy or one per model in the target unit?

Unfortunately, GW can't write for gak. They use 'this' twice in the arc bombs rule. Once is unambiguously referring to the skystalkers, the other 'this' could legitimately be either the number of models in the skystalkers or the number of models in target unit.

This is double frustrating because the wording in every other bombing run ability I can find is actually very clear about delineating which unit they're talking about.

I think RAI, it's intended as one bomb per model in the target, especially after seeing the points cost on the skystalkers. Though I originally thought it was one bomb per model in the skystalkers unit based on their use of 'this' and 'that.'

Eh, they've really not thought this through if that's their intention. Either that or we're intended to be OP lol

HO Artisan: Exquisite Calibrations - improve AP by 1 for models within half range
HO Logos: Flaws of the Foe - improve AP by 1 on unmodified hit roll of 6

Manipulus + 6" range 30" AP -3 Autocannons anyone? lol

There are so many options of combinations when you combine WTs it's obscene. The number of options we have available to us is pretty mind-boggling.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

RogueApiary wrote:
What's the latest verdict on the number of bombs the flyboys drop? Is it one per flyboy or one per model in the target unit?

Unfortunately, GW can't write for gak. They use 'this' twice in the arc bombs rule. Once is unambiguously referring to the skystalkers, the other 'this' could legitimately be either the number of models in the skystalkers or the number of models in target unit.

This is double frustrating because the wording in every other bombing run ability I can find is actually very clear about delineating which unit they're talking about.

I think RAI, it's intended as one bomb per model in the target, especially after seeing the points cost on the skystalkers. Though I originally thought it was one bomb per model in the skystalkers unit based on their use of 'this' and 'that.'

General consensus is it's one bomb per model in the Skystalker unit. 'This' refers to your own unit as in the first part of the rule. There's a different term 'enemy unit' as is used in the first part of the rule to refer to the target.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That 2cp strategem for the Raiders I think has more utility than we initially thought.

It is quite pricey but it has a number of advantages:

If we look at raiders as a screening unit and set them up to protect our gunline units so that there's no space available for a flying unit to charge over the top of them. They might be thinking they'll charge the raiders and consolidate to tie up the gunline afterwards. Solid strategy. Especially as you would generally not set them up so close BECAUSE of the consolidation danger.

However, as soon as they declare a charge against the raiders you can spend your 2cp and move TOWARDS the charging unit. Hell depending on the terrain and how far away they are you might even get the raiders level with them or behind the charging unit! Once they've declared the charge they can't back down so you can potentially draw them away from their intended target.

Now if they're clever, if the charging unit has Fly, they could declare a charge against both the raiders AND the gunline behind. But in that case you stay where you are and they have to chew through the raiders first, plus eating overwatch from the raiders and the gunline.

And if that gunline is a squad of Balistarii, they overwatch on full BS

And Raiders are cheap, a better point per wound than even Ruststalkers. And if you need them to they're as fast as Pteraxii (but without Fly) so they also give us that mobility we've been needing to get objectives and deny DS.

I don't know, the rules feel good from the drop. The new units aren't that impressive, unlike the transport/tank kit that added a lot to army these units feel like luxury units people will mostly get and play for a lark but leave the same good units as still the go to choices. At least so far as I see it. The bomber plane can be interesting and maybe some of the flyers but not anything meta defining.

Just have some fun, and in the nature of fun I like the feel of the raiders at least.

Not to detract from the current discussion on the new models, but the new rules for Mars got me thinking about Larsen Vandergrass from Elucidian Starstriders Killteam. Forgive me if this has been brought up already, but looking at him with fresh eyes I was thinking he might be a nice tool to have in a lot of lists.

First of all, he has the admech, mars, character, and tech-priest keywords so you can take him in any Mars list, second of all, he's an elites choice — which under the current rules could help to fill out a brigade, although who knows what that will mean in 9th.

The reason I think he could be useful, however, is that there's a 1cp stratagem that allows him to teleport anywhere as if he were deepstriking, and you can use it more than once per game. So he's a character that can teleport to any objective you need him on multiple times.

For 22pts he might be a decent choice to help with our mobility.

Lucius is super underrated with that Canticle for any Skitarii. A 7/8 point model with a 4+/5++ that ignores AP-1 is super good. On top of that, their Strat is basically just as good as Stygies.

Raiders are good because:
1) Scout move allows them to control objectives and screen enemy assault units before the game even begins
2) Cost 44 points and are Fast Attack, so you can use them to fill Brigade slots

That being said, I am surprised that their profile is basically Skitarii and that they are T3, not T4. Mounts usually add +1T.

The more I look at the bomber, the more impressed I am. 110 points. Can advance 70", bomb and apply shaken to enemies, turn and hide behind some ruins. The fact that they can clear elites so easily is nuts...

@TheArchmagos
I don't think you can give a named character a WLT, can you?